I emailed Democratic attorney David McDonald for some comments on the outcome of the GOP’s voter registration challenge, and he cut straight to the point.
No matter how you cut it, this is incredibly sloppy work by Sotelo and her gang. About 80% of the challenges that they pursued to hearing in the last ten days were rejected [or withdrawn] for lack of adequate proof. On top of that are all the rest of the challenges that they withdrew before the hearing but after they forced the voter to use a challenged ballot.
They have consumed a lot of public money, time and employee resources with this wave of last minute challenges. It is unclear that the result is any different than if they had taken Dean Logan up on his offer to check any list that they gave him rather than filing mass challenges, other than they have spent much more taxpayer money.
Out of 1944 challenges filed with great fanfare just days before the November 8 election, only 58 ballots have been disqualified… less than 3 percent. Meanwhile, hundreds of legal voters have been wrongly inconvenienced and harassed, all so the GOP could make a political point.
And a cheap, weak political point it was… though of course, that didn’t stop state GOPolitburo chair Chris Vance from repeating it in the wake of their disastrous voter intimidation scheme:
“Even though our challenges have been formally rejected, we have achieved our objective,” he said. “The objective remains the same as it’s always been: to persuade King County to clean up its process and clean up its voter rolls.”
So let me just take a moment to say something that I’m sure a lot of people in the elections office and the Democratic Party are thinking, but that is too impolitic for most people to say out loud: Hey Chris… fuck you!
King County has been doing its job maintaining the voter rolls since long before Vance and Lori Sotelo filed their cynical, bogus challenges. That’s not just my conclusion… that’s the conclusion of the Republican Secretary of State’s office, and of every county auditor contacted for comment by the Seattle P-I.
Republican charges that the King County elections office doesn’t police voter-registration addresses closely enough are unreasonable, the state elections director says.
“It’s a pretty high burden to place on a county, especially a county the size of King,” Nick Handy said Monday.
Snohomish County doesn’t screen registrations for nonresidential addresses. Neither does Island County. And neither does Republican Chelan County.
Evelyn Arnold is the auditor in Chelan County, overseeing a little more than 36,000 registered voters (outside of King County, elected auditors run the county elections departments). A Republican, she testified in May as the leadoff witness for the GOP in its legal challenge to the 129-vote victory of Democrat Christine Gregoire in the 2004 governor’s race. […] Arnold said this week that her office does not systematically investigate residence addresses or other information on registration applications.
“When people come in to register, we take their word,” she said. “They have signed an affidavit (the registration form), and we take their word for it.
“We don’t cross-examine,” she said. “We can’t, really. We don’t have the authority to do that, in my opinion.”
If an employee in her office recognizes a residence address as bogus or if that information comes to her from outside, Arnold said, she’ll look into it — but she said she’s loath to eliminate a registration on that basis.
“We don’t want to disenfranchise any voter because their address is suspect,” she said.
Spokane did recently create a database to screen registrations, but only after they dealt with more important priorities. And according to Audtior Vicky Dalton, they only check addresses after voters have been placed on the rolls.
“We do not deny registration based on that address,” she said. “We take the registration, and then we work to clean it up.”
Why didn’t Vance and the GOP go after these other counties? And why, after all their efforts, were they able to disqualify such a small number of voters — otherwise eligible, and mostly due to technical errors in their registration? Because KCRE was doing its job as required by statute, and consistent with the procedures in every other county in the state.
The only thing this incident proves is that the state GOP, under Vance’s direction, is willing to do and say anything for a perceived political advantage… even if it means unfairly maligning innocent people, and disenfranchising legal voters.
Perhaps it’s about politics?
If the GOP wanted to further alienate KC taxpayers and voters… they have done a great job!
Excerpts from the testimony of Chief Postal Inspector Kenneth C. Weaver before the Senate Subcommittee on International Security, Proliferation and Federal Services
September 20, 2001
“The tragic terrorist events of last week [9/11/2001] have impacted all people of our nation. The Postal Inspection Service immediately took action in support of the Postal Service and all Americans. Across the country, Inspectors, Postal Police Officers and support personnel have performed acts of heroism and provided significant security and investigative assistance that have truly impacted the nation.”
“Information was received that some of the [9/11/2001] hijackers were renting boxes to receive mail anonymously at commercial mail receiving agencies. As we’ve all too frequently seen, criminals hide behind the protection afforded by an address at a commercial mail receiving agency.”
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/ar01_03.htm
Is the “#” a CMRA private mailbox holder? Toll-free number and website can verify
WASHINGTON — On Aug. 1, Postal Service customers can either call a toll-free number or go online to verify whether an address with a “#” secondary designator is located at a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency (CMRA).
This coincides with the compliance date for standard addressing requirements for CMRA customers. The phone number is 888-209-8726. On the Internet, customers can go to http://www.usps.com and click Find ZIP Codes.
They can enter the address on the ZIP+4 Code Lookup home page and click the Process button. The database will return the standardized address and indicate if it is located at a CMRA.
On March 25, 1999, a new addressing standard for CMRA customers was adopted requiring private mailbox holders to use PMB (private mailbox) as a secondary address designation instead of suite or apartment, which imply that the addressee is physically located at the address.
On Aug. 16, 2000, a revision allowed private mailbox holders to use PMB or the alternative pound sign (#) as the secondary designation, in certain conditions.
The effective date of the new standard was delayed until Aug. 1, 2001, to ease the transition for CMRA customers. Check out the July 27 edition of Postal Bulletin for more details.
http://www.usps.com/news/online/0725_2.htm
Amazing! All this from the same folks who want every ballot cast and counted perfectly, and at no cost to the taxpayer.
Perhaps they might learn this stuff isn’t as simple and easy as they had imagined? No, they’ll just hold this latest charade up as more proof the system is broken and that idiot Logan is still trying to defraud them.
And don’t try to talk to them about error ratios or procedures in other counties, especially Red counties. They don’t live in those counties so it doesn’t matter.
Unkl Witz,
KING COUNTY RECORDS AND ELECTIONS ALREADY HAS VOTER REGISTRATION INFORMATION IN THE ZIP-PLUS-FOUR FORMAT! LOOK AT YOUR VOTER REGISTRATION CARD MY FRIEND!
What could be “AS SIMPLE” as Dean Logan using the zip-plus-four software that his office already has, and noting all of the private mailbox facility (Commercial Mail Receiving Agencies, or CMRA in USPS-speak) addresses? Each PMB facility has its own unique zip-plus-four designation, which is not shared by any other address.
Mr. Goldstein, are formal charges going to be filed against certain members of the KCGOP for falsifying an official affidavit or something similar? Is the local DA looking into this?
If some of these high and mighty douche bags are facing actual jail time, they may think twice before trying this bullshit again. Maybe they can share a cell with the Duke
Another chapter in exposing the flaws in our elections laws. Not only can we have more ballots than voters and illegal votes that still count when discovered, but now anyone can use a PO Box anywhere in KC for “residency”. As long as your real address is not available from public resources there is no way to have the registration challenged.
The left is upset, not by the efforts to expose the cheating, but by the publication of how to do it legally.
Richard Pope—
EXCELLENT POINT!!!
The old saying is “If there’s a will, there’s a way”.
Logan is more focused on defending his actions than looking at obvious ways to validate registrations.
I figure there will continue to be “watchdogs” trying to make certain the Voter Registration Databases are clean and legitimate STATEWIDE. After all, ILLEGAL VOTES disenfranchise EVERYONE, right??? KingCo was a good place to start.
Mr. Cynical @ 8
Of course, it would have been helpful for the KCGOP to have stumbled upon this point as well.
But King County Elections does have the legal responsibility for doing this. So does the Secretary of State, starting on January 1, 2006.
I would say that Nick Handy and Dean Logan have to be DUMBASSES if they don’t realize that CMRA’s (private mailbox facilities) can easily be identified simply by looking at their unique zip-plus-four designations that appear in the voter registration list.
IT WOULD TAKE LESS THAN FIVE SECONDS TO GENERATE A LIST OF ALL VOTERS IN THE ENTIRE STATE OF WASHINGTON WHO ARE REGISTERED AT PRIVATE MAILBOX FACILITIES! DUMBASSES! (or worse)
Goldy—
I’m impressed that you would quote the DEMS lead attorney as your key source for this thread.
I’m equally impressed you would take comments of other Auditors out of context…..
Your style seems to be that of Dr.FRANKENSTEIN! You take little snipets, glue them together and express outrage!
Many other State Auditors routinely look at and follow-up on issues like mailbox addresses, storage units etc. Often times, things are corrected…..especially for folks in transit. Other times, they are not and the ILLEGAL registrant disappears. No way to track this but plenty of anecdotal evidence. Some examples I have heard of are:
1) Folks PLANNING to move to Washington and want to vote. Often they are unaware of the 30-day rule.
2) Liveaboards on boats in marina’s that routinely travel.
3) Already registered and voted in another state.
FRAUD is not the issue here GOldy. You LEFTIST PINHEADS are addicted to the F-word. For me, it has always been about clean voter registration lists, reconciling votes with voters and better election laws.
The Washington State Republicans have failed to articulate a clear agenda with precisely what they are going to do and how they are going to pay for it. They are rudderless and deserve to be in the minority right now. Perhaps a true leader will arise…..there is plenty of opportunity as the DEMS aren’t exactly that popular either.
Lots of folks I know feel disenfranchised, not because of Voter Registration challenges, but because it is the ENTRENCHED BUREAUCRATS running government at all levels. The Elected Officials are helpless and often highly underqualified. They are sucked in to the tub of GOO and quickly become part of the problem.
I feel like Alice in Wonderland. The auditors say they monitor the voter rolls, but they won’t actually remove an illegal voter just because that voter can’t supply a legal residence. But they don’t want the average guy to challenge.
Oh, yes, send us your list! We will look at every one! Then we will tell you that there is nothing we can do!
So, just how do you ensure that those voting actually live here – or actually exist? This isn’t a partisan issue! Everyone is being disenfranchised!
Irrelevant @10
I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your posts on the tax issue a few days ago, but sadly you have reverted to this type of hyper-ventilating rants and I guess I will just go back to ignoring your posts.
But while I am here…
Yep, it’s DEFINATELY Democrats who are addicted to the word fraud. Did you hit your head and just forget all of the last 12 months?
Tub of goo? Evil bureaucrats? A scientific poll of ‘lots of folks’ you happen to hang out with?
If you want to actually talk reality – of course it is the professionals running the various agencies day in and day out that have a lot of control. They provide stability and competency that some politician from some unknown background just does not have.
Would you rather have a dictatorship? Then perhaps you could have more stability and you might even feel enfranchised if it happened to be a dictator that you agreed with.
Democracy is a messy and fragile thing. If you don’t realize how dangerous the Republicans game in undermining the electoral system by now, I guess you never will.
Janet @11
“But they don’t want the average guy to challenge.”
Do you think… just maybe… that there is a difference between the ‘average guy’ saying that his friend/neighbor doesn’t live here anymore and shouldn’t vote and the Republican party flopping out some crackpot database to disenfranchise Democratic voters three days before the election?
C’mon – use those razor sharp analytical skills of yours and find the distiction.
Nindid-12 ‘If you don’t realize how dangerous the Republicans game in undermining the electoral system by now..’
Exposing a vote machine that allows illegal votes and voters is dangerous? The system is already “undermined”, and the it is the dems who are screaming because of the exposure.
Cynical @ 10
I could not agree with you more.
The repiublican party in this state need to do much more homework before opening it’s mouth in the future. As we have seen from the Governors race and this most recent fiasco, the protests they have merit.
However, throwing random voters onto a list before doing any research is just pathetic.
Until the repulsivcans accept the fact that they are acting like hitler youth (and joe mccarthy) in claiming fraud without proof, they will lose their collective butts in the coming elections.
people are finally realizing all the repulsivcan crap they’ve been fed in the last 10 years, and the hammer is going to come down, nationally, regionally, and locally.
the funny part is that repulsivcans think dino rossi is their savior…he’s their downfall! cripes, the guy couldn’t even take a stand on an anti-tax issue in the last election. if rossi has the cajones to run again, which i don’t think he does, he’s going to get spanked bigger than mid-term repulsivcans!
The Republicans’ recent crusade for “clean voting rolls” has been most amusing given how quickly, selectively, and fervently they took up the cause after the gubernatorial contest. Their hyperbole would suggest that they’ve been lifelong adherents to the cause, rather than just devotees to the issue du jour. They scream as if they have principles to defend, rather than just partisan strategies. The evidence after all the screaming is over is that King County, for a large urban county, has a pretty decent election system. We can’t reasonably demand perfection of our businesses, of our government, or even of our personal relationships. So, the ongoing complaints about a few glitches in King County’s election system are becoming tedious and tiresome. Get over it. Democracy is not perfect.
proud leftist-17 ‘..and fervently they took up the cause after the gubernatorial contest.’
I did not realize how incompetent and ripe-for-fraud our election system was until that election. Ignorance was bliss for the repubs. (Key word is “was”.) What is your excuse?
I love how all the trolls(Pope included) completely skate around the fact that not every auditor checks for PMBs like King County.
Anyone who claims KCE isn’t actively cleaning up the voter rolls is either lying or not paying attention. In the case of the GOP, it was apparently the latter because a quarter of their list was already inactive.
I’m looking forward now to seeing Vance and Sotelo take on some real hotbeds of corruption: Asotin, Adams, and Okanogan counties, all of which had higher rates of recount vote change per capita in 2004 than King Co.
Waiting …
Waiting …
I love how all the left-wing DUMBASSES (Aexia included) ignore the fact that it would take LESS THAN FIVE SECONDS to determine which voters in King County (or even the entire state, since the Sec of State now puts the whole state registration list on a CD) are registered at private mailbox facilities, SIMPLY BY THE UNIQUE ZIP-PLUS-FOUR CODES that are assigned to these facilities.
We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense — such as Stefan Sharkansky.
Okay, Nindid:
Who is going to challenge their neighbor living over at PO box 231? The neighbor at PO box 456?
What is happening now is intimidation. Message from Dean Logan: Don’t challenge us, we will make your life miserable. Submit lists we can review and ignore, that’s fine. But don’t file anything legal. The PR machine will smear you all over every newspaper we have in our back pocket (which is both the times and pi).
Again, this isn’t partisan. Every resident of King County is being disenfranchised by this corrupt group.
Repulsivecans think that a 3% success rate is FANTASTIC, at the same time bashing Sims and Logan for a failure rate of less than 1/10th of 1%…
Go repulsives, go! I’ll cheer you on to your vanishing support and demise!
Janet @22:
You are right, this is intimidation and disenfranchisement….but you have the players wrong. It’s the repulsivecans who are the bad guys & gals…
All Logan said yesterday is that repulsivcans need to follow the law and provide personal knowledge, and not just challenge based on faulty database searches.
Bamajerk – they are only reviewing the small percentage of those who actually showed up at the polls. That is 58 rejected registrations out of those the corrupt group of bozos decided to review. They are not reviewing the challenges of anyone who didn’t vote, which was about 90% of the challenges.
I guess if you keep repeating a lie often enough, even the idiots at this site will believe it.
But, then, Goldy is still trying to buy his way into a KC job, just like Carolyn Edmonds managed. Treat Ron right, and Ron will treat you well.
Bamajenk…
No one is claiming that 3% is fantastic.
However, having a corrupt scumbag like Simms in office and having his lackey Dean Logan still in place is a joke.
Get voted out of office? Don’t worry, Ronny still has close to a 6 figure paycheck and a job for ya…
Own property in King County? Better ask King ron how much of it is yours and how much of it is his….
Point out all the curruption in the Republican party you want to, but don’t stop there. If you are involved in this states government, you are stealing from the tax payers.
I was thinking about the guy Minnow chased away from the polls on this last election day. If that had been me, I would have politely asked for my provisional ballot, filled it out and submitted it, and than dragged him out by his hair and beaten him like a cheap rug. Whether it’s perjury charges or a simple physical response, we need to start fighting fire with fire.
bamajenk-24 ‘..follow the law and provide personal knowledge..’
As long as no one has personal knowledge of where a PO Box voter actually lives it is OK to register wherever you want. And if the PO Box voter is a figment of the imagination of someone wanting to vote extra ballots there will be no real address for anyone else to know. The perfect crime – it is legal to register in whatever precinct needs the “extra votes”, and as long as the real address is unknown the vote will count.
Richard @21
“We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense – such as Stefan Sharkansky.”
HAHAHAAHA! Do you do stand-up at Comedy Underground? You’ve got a future!
Let’s see, replace someone who follows the law, who has worked for and recommended by two well-respected republican (yes, I did say republican) Secretaries of state, and has the ability to make corrections when problems arise….
and replace him with a repulisivecan hack who has inkling about following the law, thinks the Sotelo/Vance
heck, I say go for it. just one more nail in the coffin for replsives everywhere!
RP @ 21 “We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense – such as Stefan Sharkansky.”
Beyond the fact that the minnow has proven himself to be both incompetent and sorely lacking in common sense… Well, there is no need to go beyond that fact.
It just ain’t ever going to happen. But good luck with that, RP. Lots and lots of luck.
bamajenk-23 ‘I’ll cheer you on to your vanishing support and demise!’
Please hold your breath while waiting. With consumer confidence, employment and the economy in general moving up it will be hard for your dream to come true. Add in the public sentiment regarding the dems surrender rhetoric and how it degrades the morale of troops in war and it may be a slam dunk.
Pope @ 21
“I love how all the left-wing DUMBASSES (Aexia included) ignore the fact that it would take LESS THAN FIVE SECONDS to determine which voters in King County (or even the entire state, since the Sec of State now puts the whole state registration list on a CD) are registered at private mailbox facilities, SIMPLY BY THE UNIQUE ZIP-PLUS-FOUR CODES that are assigned to these facilities.”
You are correct that a preliminary list can be arrived at easily. And, I suspect a number of counties will do this before the next election and get proper residences for the tiny fraction of people who (1) either erred in filling out their registration form, or (2) put down a mailbox because they have no other residence, and should have been assigned to a public building.
Even so, the issue here is that the GOP did not have to use the slimey tactic of waiting until days before the election (after voter roll changes have been closed down) to provide the information to KC. They should have either (1) made the challenges as early as possible to allow KC to clean the rolls, or (2) skip challenges altogether and provide the information to KC in a spirit of cooperation in cleaning the voter rolls.
“We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense – such as Stefan Sharkansky.”
Thanks for the laugh!
Richard, how many of your challenges were successful?
Richard @21
“We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense – such as Stefan Sharkansky.”
HAHAHAAHA! Do you do stand-up at Comedy Underground? You’ve got a future!
Let’s see, replace someone who follows the law, who has worked for and recommended by two well-respected republican (yes, I did say republican) Secretaries of state, and has the ability to make corrections when problems arise….
and replace him with a repulisivecan hack who has no inkling about following the law (just ask the guy on election day), thinks the Sotelo/Vance 3% SUCCESS is just darn great.
heck, I say go for it. just one more nail in the coffin for replsives everywhere!
yearight @ 26
“As long as no one has personal knowledge of where a PO Box voter actually lives it is OK to register wherever you want. And if the PO Box voter is a figment of the imagination of someone wanting to vote extra ballots there will be no real address for anyone else to know. The perfect crime – it is legal to register in whatever precinct needs the “extra votes”, and as long as the real address is unknown the vote will count. “
Paranoid much?
So, how many such fradulent absentee requests for non-existent voters were there in the GOP challenge list? Try zero.
Get help for your paranoia, yearight. It is a serious disorder with you.
DJ @ 30
Do you know when the GOP was provided the info on the voter rolls to do their “lil snooping”. Was the info available to them months prior, or weeks, days???? I would assume that the info was not available to them prior to the 30 day closing period of the voter rolls. Then how many days went by before they actually recieved them. And of course we all know how much time it took to research them…..
Just a question, please dont bite my head off.
We need to FIRE Dean Logan and replace him with someone who has technical competence and common sense – such as Stefan Sharkansky.
Oh my Dog! RP if you were an outsider at one time, you have to be clamoring for the inside now. Too cold outside?
According to the wingnuts, firing Dean Logan is a gimme. The criteria applied need not apply to counties that lean Republican.
The style of the current Republican party in this state is to use the Rove playbook to hoodwink moderate voters and disguise the true extreme nature of their candidates like David Irons. Use voter suppression tactics to squeak out narrow wins – the best kind for the wingnuts.
Then once they take power use EXTREME voter suppression and outright fraud to cling to power.
This is the true, extreme nature of the Republican Party in WA – probably the only state in the country to give George Bush a rising job approval rating for the last two months!
They must NOT be allowed to win power until the extremist wing has burnt itself out.
yearight @ 26 You seem to be ignoring the fact that Soleto perjured herself hundreds of times. We can talk about how best to form registration laws, but to excuse multiple perjury is just going to sink the rotting shell of the USSR KC GOP quicker than you can say “current Republican leadership is neither Republican nor leaders.â€
USSR = Useless Sanctimonious Sycophant Ratbastards
[One less Democrat vote, unless black gang member still vote in California after they are room temperature. [hehe…readon!!] The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People on Monday announced a two-week “crusade” through California to show its opposition to the pending execution of gang founder and Nobel Peace Prize nominee Stanley “Tookie” Williams. The group hopes to convince California Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger that Williams deserves to live because of his work in encouraging young people to stay away from gangs.
yearight @ 18
I recognize that we can quibble about definitions, but I simply do not believe that the spotlight that has been focused on the King County Elections people for the past year has uncovered evidence of “incompetence” or a system “ripe for fraud.” All that has been uncovered is evidence of human error and bureaucratic foot-dragging. To the extent that improvements can be made, they should be. I do not believe for one second, however, that we would be hearing the Republican hyperventilation we’ve been hearing if we saw evidence of such human error or foot-dragging in Chelan or Lewis County. The Republicans’ cry for clean elections is the product of nothing more than their status as the minority party in this state.
This discussion and the original post (and previous ones) are pathetic. If you guys on the left would use more than 2 braincells you would realize that this is not a left vs right issue, that this is not a disinfrachising issue, but a plain and simple “how to be correct and law abiding”. Instead of fixing the obvious problems out there, instead of trying to make sure that every legal and proper voter has the right to vote, all you guys do is politizing the issue. Did the KCGOP screw up some of their challenges ? Sure. Could they have done a better job ? Sure. But it is clear to everyone (even you guys on the left) that things are not propper and correct.
So you hide behind stupid assumption, almost make Logan the Hero, instead of asking him to fix the rolls. Yes, counties on the other side of the Cascades have problems too. So what ? Fix them. It is not ok in my book to have those illegal voters (and yes, if they are registered illegally, they are illegal, until they register legally).
Or let’s use another example you might understand. Lately, there is lots of complaining about the assumption and perception that the CIA has illegal prison camps and is using torture. Nothing has been proven, but ….
So, to follow your logic: What’s wrong with this. The majority of the countries in the world is using torture as part of their system in one form or another (yes, the majority if you look at all coutries). So…based on your logic, it should be ok for the US to use it too…right…cuz others do it.
NO, it is not ok, if some country or county is not following the law, lets fix it and not hide behind: They do it to.
Some idots write: I will challenge 10 voters in any republican county for each voter challenged in KC. Go for it, do it if you have some proof that the voter is registered illegally. But hiding behing stupid arguments doesn’t fix things.
Democracy is a wonderful thing, so let’s make sure we give every legal voter the right to vote, give every legal voter the knowledge that his/her vote counts and that the government is doing everything possible to make it fair for everyone.
Remember the cries and screams when the requirement was put in for ID at the polls ? It was step in the right direction. And hopefully more will follow and everyone (right, left and whereever you are…) will work towards the common goal.
dj@30 sez:
“Even so, the issue here is that the GOP did not have to use the slimey tactic of waiting until days before the election (after voter roll changes have been closed down) to provide the information to KC. They should have either (1) made the challenges as early as possible to allow KC to clean the rolls, or (2) skip challenges altogether and provide the information to KC in a spirit of cooperation in cleaning the voter rolls.”
dj, you know damn well that Logan and the KINGCO Elections repeatedly stonewalled Public Records requests and doing these obvious things based on verbal requests. Logan specifically said they don’t have the time or responsibility. There is plenty of blame to go around on this one dj. The bottom-line is these Voter Registration rolls need to be cleaned up STATEWIDE!
PS—The R’s gave Logan this list on October 26th. By days before the election….do you mean 13??
And Richard Pope is 100% correct—the 9-digit zip code could have pulled these up months & months before this election.
I don’t live in Chelan or Lewis County, so I really don’t care what their voter rolls look like. That is for the residents of those counties to monitor. I do care what King County looks like, and it is a mess. Voting officials have declared that they aren’t removing anyone from the rolls, regardless of whether they are dead or living in a PO box. The GOP didn’t have too many other recourses for trying to clean up known problems.
Proud leftist….
“The Republicans’ cry for clean elections is the product of nothing more than their status as the minority party in this state.”
I’m curious, as a minority, should the republicans have less rights? Should they not be afforded the same opportunities as other minorities in this state?
HEY prr… you’re on to something there – as a victimized minority we Conservatives need/deserve/should demand SPECIAL RIGHT!
Hellsbells, it works for every special interest and fringie group the leftyloonies champion!!
Goose/gander fruitcakes and fringies!
Chris @ 33
“Do you know when the GOP was provided the info on the voter rolls to do their “lil snooping”. Was the info available to them months prior, or weeks, days????”
The GOP had the database early enough to search and provide challenges on about Oct 10th for 5,222 people they though had dual registrations. There is good evidence that they sat on that list for a couple of weeks: from a KC press release on Oct 12th:
“I would assume that the info was not available to them prior to the 30 day closing period of the voter rolls. Then how many days went by before they actually recieved them. And of course we all know how much time it took to research them…..”
Nope…they had the KC registration database for months before the election.
“Just a question, please dont bite my head off. “
Man…that takes all the fun out of it! :-)
dj @ 40
Ooops…the “on about Oct 10th” was supposed to be “on about Oct 12th.” The GOP gave a press release on that day. I am not sure when the official challenges went in.
Janet, please. Get a grip. Let’s look at this dispassionately:
“I don’t live in Chelan or Lewis County…”
A good start. I’ll take your word for it. There. Agreement!
“…so I really don’t care what their voter rolls look like.”
My, my, my. Your civic virtue is pretty shallow, and frankly (in accordance with the laws of slippry solipcisms) frees me to say I don’t really care what you think.
“Voting officials have declared that they aren’t removing anyone from the rolls, regardless of whether they are dead or living in a PO box.”
Absolute fffing lie.
“The GOP didn’t have too many other recourses for trying to clean up known problems.”
The question is not about “how many recourses” the goppers had. It is the fact that there were alternatives. Reasonable ones (see above). Your assertion is false on all counts. Vance choose to go for a cheap partisan trick, and it is backfiring big time.
Get over it.
dj-32 ‘..how many such fradulent absentee requests for non-existent voters were there in the GOP challenge list? Try zero.’
You must know something everyone else does not. How do you know which of those voters has another “real” address, or is actually a person not covered by another registration somewhere else? Anything beyond the few who actually responded to the challenge?
‘Paranoid much?’
No, just learning how the system works. Taking notes, etc.
Janet S @ 37
“I do care what King County looks like, and it is a mess.”
No…it is not a mess. The rate of error is lower than that found in other studies. By almost every criteria there are other WA counties that have higher error rates than KC (in 2004 election).
“Voting officials have declared that they aren’t removing anyone from the rolls, regardless of whether they are dead or living in a PO box.”
No. NOT TRUE, Janet S.
From an Oct 12th KC press release:
“GOP didn’t have too many other recourses for trying to clean up known problems.”
Yes…they had plenty of choices. (1) challenge voters as early as possible to allow voters to update their registration information while the rolls are still open, (2) provide the infromation to KC as early as possible, (3) wait until after the election to provide the info to KC (probably the best option given the enormous error rate of their methodology).
Instead the GOP waited until days before the election with error-ridden and incomplete voter challenges. And, it cost the taxpayers a lot of money. The alternative would have been a simple mailing by KC to the voters at their mailing address asking them to correct their residence address—a low-cost, effective solution that would not have discouraged eligible voters from exercising their voting right.
Donnageddon-34 ‘You seem to be ignoring the fact that Soleto perjured herself hundreds of times.’
Not sure how you come up with that. Are you “ignoring” all of the perjury involved with bad registrations? No, I am sure you want ALL perjury to be prosecuted. Welcome to the right side.
yearight @ 43
“You must know something everyone else does not.”
Yes…it is called “innocent until proven guilty.” Ever hear of it? After all, voting twice is a bad-ass felony.
“How do you know which of those voters has another “real” address, or is actually a person not covered by another registration somewhere else? Anything beyond the few who actually responded to the challenge?”
A Mailbox is completely unnecessary for your hypothetical scheme. If I wanted to commit a felony and vote twice, it is just as easy to do it at my own residence by inventing an imaginary “housemate.” This is lower-risk than using a mailbox, since there is no trigger to make people suspicious (i.e. a mailbox address).
I presume that this almost never happens because (1) most voters are honest, (2) few people are so passionate about politics that they would risk losing their right to vote in order to put one more ballot into the system, and (3) the penalties are severe enough for double-voting that the zealots will think twice.
HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS
I did a little search and came up with the filing process.
As a Straight, white, conservative, catholic who resides in Seattle’s central district. I am DEFINITELY a minority and deserve to have my rights protected. I encourage you to do the same.
To date, my politics are not be represented in this city, my religion is persecuted, If I walk down the street I can be called a “white boy” without any form of protection by the local authorities, I pay the highest taxes on my street, etc…
I am going to call today to see what kind of free stuff can come my way. Government jobs, free housing, free medical benefits,etc…
http://www.cityofseattle.net/c.....htm#Intake
Dear Mr. Cynical,
Would you be so kind as to go fuck yourself. I am not addicted to the word, as it has its time and place for use, but REPUBLICANS lately seem to be addicted to doing it to themselves. Since you hero worship folks like DeLay, Cunningham, Frist and Libby I figure with a little encouragement you might try it yourself.
Have nice day!
Dug
It’s readily apparent that the Republicans should write-off King County in any state-wide or national election. They would do better to spend their time on building support in the other counties with the hope overcoming KC’s bloc.
It will be a difficult challenge, but it is most likely their only alternative.
@46
DJ,
You would think that people wouldn’t vote twice, and that they are honest and that the penalties are severe. All of that is true. However; they are doing it. I am a NY Yankees fan and I read several NY newpapers online. Last year one of them reported that over 43,000 New Yorkers voted twice in 2000 elections. They are all snowbirds with houses in New York and Florida both. They even printed comments from many of them and reported that many people that they contacted hung up on them. A lot of them viewed as their right since they owned property in both states. They physically voted in one state and voted absentee in the other.
And NO, I don’t believe that thousands are doing that in Washington, the newspapers did report 10, I think. The newspapers reported around 40 double voters in the Nov 2004 election, Stefan has found quite a few and has published pictures of two ballot envelopes signed by the same person
@43
It is a good thing that Logan is cancelling the double registrations. KCRE created them by bypassing a check to see if voters are registered before processing another registration for them. It happened in the Get out the vote drives by PAC’s who are determined to register everyone in sight. They literally bombed KCRE with thousands upon thousands of registrations right before the election. They (KCRE) did it to save time, but it created thousands of duplicates. It is one of the reasons that they have gotten slammed around in the press and by the GOP for sending duplicate ballots to people.
all I can say, is if you are ignorant enough that you can believe that a mailbox is really a residential address, then you desreve the corruption you get.
I dont care about partisan bullshit, I care about integrity in the process. Surely some of those people are republicans too unless you claim only democrats are stupid or dishonest enough to do it.
sven@52–
I couldn’t agree more with your comments.
The LEFTIST PINHEADS start squealing NO FRAUD when the effort is to clean up the Voter Registration rolls. It’s kind of like these CLOWNS screaming FIRE in a movie theatre when someone takes a bite of popcorn!! They are addicted to the F-word!
The LEFTIST PINHEADS are also addicted to the word “disenfranchised”. It sounds really bad, doesn’t it?? Yet they are unable to come up with one single person who will publicly say they didn’t vote in November because they were disenfranchised.
The LEFTIST PINHEADS also don’t seem to want to get the fact that ILLEGAL VOTES disenfranchise EVERYONE.
Frankly, I don’t think the Voter Registration issue is over yet. Far from it. It should be an ongoing process where legitimate voters feel free to challenge anyone they feel may not be legitimate AND to take a very close look at what LEGAL VOTER means and doesn’t mean. It’s an eye-opener when you come to grips with who can cancel out your vote!
sgmmac @ 49
Last year one of them reported that over 43,000 New Yorkers voted twice in 2000 elections. They are all snowbirds with houses in New York and Florida both. They even printed comments from many of them and reported that many people that they contacted hung up on them. A lot of them viewed as their right since they owned property in both states. They physically voted in one state and voted absentee in the other. “
Not even close.
The media covered the fact that 46,000 voters were registered in NY and FL. I know, “details, details,” but there is a huge difference between being registered in two different places and voting twice.
Clearly, one should not be registered in two places, but it happens if only because of latency in updating registration databases when switching your official residence.
The NY daily news did some follow-up and found that only 1,700 of the 46,000 “dually registered” had absentee ballots sent to the other state, and they found evidence to suggest that “between 400 and 1,000 registered voters [had] voted twice in at least one election.” But, suggestive evidence using name matching is highly error prone.
What I found interesting in the article, though, is that they contacted a handful of dual voters, and they were all Republicans. Imagine that!
Mr. Cynical @ 53
“The LEFTIST PINHEADS also don’t seem to want to get the fact that ILLEGAL VOTES disenfranchise EVERYONE.”
Indeed…every illegal vote disenfranchises each of us by roughly 1/3000000 of a vote (in 2004, anyway). On the other hand, suppressing a single legal voter from voting has EXACTLY the same effect.
Given the very low rate of illegal voting already, how many legal votes are you willing to disenfranchise for each illegal vote suppressed?
If you disenfranchise 2 legal voters to get rid of one illegal voter, haven’t you made the election outcome less accurate?
for all liberals who think vote fraud is okay…think about this
““When people come in to register, we take their word,” she said. “They have signed an affidavit (the registration form), and we take their word for it.”
go ahead….try this at a bank. and that isn’t even half as important as your vote.
goldy you are so transparently a toady for the democrat’s “gang” [i still can’t believe that an attorney would use THAT line!] it’s sad.
you have become irrelevant.
Still waiting for Vance and Sotelo to announce their “Chelan Voter Integrity Project” …
tick …
tock …
Hey Dick,
If using the zip+4 to determine who is registered at a commercial mailbox state wide is so obvious and easy, why didn’t the GOP do it? Why did they instead focus ONLY on King county?
Oh and why on earth would you think that Sharkansky, who is likely the GOP DB ‘expert’ volunteer responsible for the diaster that was the challanges, is competent?
Hey ghost, that ‘liberal’ you are quoting is the REPUBLICAN auditor of Chelan county. Moron.
If Kalifornia Democrats bus around a few hundred thousand Mexican illegals on election day from poll to poll, maybe the Democrats will win in 2008. Unfortunately, the New Orleans buses left by the Democrat mayor are still underwater, so new buses are needed.
Goldy’s BUTTBUDDY’s cronyism exposed!!
Per the P-I:
“When King County Executive Ron Sims gave a job to former County Council Chairwoman Cynthia Sullivan a few months after she was voted out of office in 2003, he did so despite an executive order issued by Sims’ predecessor.
The order, still in effect, was designed to discourage political patronage by making it harder to fill county jobs with newly jobless politicians.”
The anti-cronyism order was issued by GARY LOCKE!
Ron’s mouthpiece says he was ignorant of the law!
Read the article and wording carefully—
“Triplett admitted that he and Sims were unaware of the order until after a P-I reporter phoned a county attorney, John Gerberding, to inquire about its legal status last week. Gerberding immediately tipped off Triplett.”
Now folks…the P-I says they contacted the County Attorney last week. Fine. What they didn’t say is precisely when they became aware of this violation of the anti-cronyism Executive Order. Did the P-I know about this BEFORE Election Day?????? If so, why did they wait? To do a gotcha??? What about the Public’s right to know….does the P-I care about his….or just playing politics? Who tipped off the P-I??? Are we to believe Neil Modie dug this up on his own??? I find that very hard to believe. Someone tipped him off….
The question is WHO and WHEN??? Conveniently missing from his article isn’t it.
yearight @ 45 “Are you “ignoring†all of the perjury involved with bad registrations?”
Nope, not at all. Anyone caught perjuring should be tried for the crime.
Now, are you will to admit that Sotelo should be in handcuffs right now?
@ 59 John, good catch!
Ghost – was Cunningham your Congressman?
Wouldn’t it be awesome if:
Lori Sotelo is convicted on perjury charges, and lost her right to vote?
Stefan became KC Elections chief, and applied his 3% expertise to the voter DB?
MR. IRRELEVANT COULD TYPE A SENTENCE WITHOUT CAPITAL LETTERS?
Richard Pope would realize that not everyone who registers at a PMB is a fradulent voter in disguise?
sgmmac could actually get his facts right (huge difference betwen 46,000 and 400, dude)?
and good old Janet S would realize that people in every corner of this state have to register to vote, to vote responsibly, and be responsible in who they deem is not eligible to vote?
DJ @ 44, etc.
How about Dean Logan’s press release of October 26, 2005, in which he says:
“The King County Republican Party today provided research alleging 1,943 voters are illegally registered at mailbox-rental facilities. In the voter database used by King County to generate ballots for the Nov. 8 General Election, no P.O. Boxes or addresses that are identified as Personal Mail Box facilities are listed as residence addresses. Unless a voter uses the words PO Box or PMB on their registration form, officials have no cause to second guess a voter’s signed registration. Many retail stores that rent personal mail boxes are located on the ground floors of apartment or condominiums and some share the street address with residents.”
http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._10_26.htm
BALONEY! Each PMB location (CMRA in USPS-speak) has a UNIQUE nine digit zip-plus-four code that is not shared with any other mail delivery location. Like I said, it takes less than FIVE SECONDS to extract the registrations with the relevant zip-plus-four codes using Excel or Access. In fact, the process is finished almost as soon as you hit the appropriate key on the computer.
And from your own contribution to this discussion:
“Instead the GOP waited until days before the election with error-ridden and incomplete voter challenges. And, it cost the taxpayers a lot of money. The alternative would have been a simple mailing by KC to the voters at their mailing address asking them to correct their residence address—a low-cost, effective solution that would not have discouraged eligible voters from exercising their voting right.”
LIKE YOU SAY, THE BEST ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR DEAN LOGAN TO DO HIS JOB PROPERLY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Once Dean Logan hit the correct key on his computer and generated the list of PMB/CMRA voters, he should have mailed them a courtesy letter telling them to change their residence address to their actual residence location and use the PMB/CMRA address only for mailing purposes.
Unfortunately, Dean Logan either doesn’t know how to do his job, or doesn’t care. Here is part of the “Fact Sheet” that Logan distributed with his 10/26/2005 press release:
“King County has made cleaning the voter rolls a priority over the past year. This fact sheet outlines the ongoing processes King County uses to clean the voter rolls and the results of those efforts.
Post Office and Personal Mail Boxes:
King County regularly runs queries of its voter database that show if a voter is registered to a post office box or personal mail box.
Registrations where a voter uses the words “P.O Box or PMB” are fatally pended until the voter provides a residential address.
There are currently no voters registered with the words “P.O. Box or PMB” in the residential address field.”
http://www.metrokc.gov/electio.....tSheet.htm
What a CLUELESS DUMBASS! Dean Logan only searched the voter database for “P.O. Box” and “PMB” (and possibly similar words), when many folks at PMB/CMRA locations simply put their number in their address — such as “# 198” (or even “Apt 198”!), instead of “Box 198” or “PMB 198”.
Checking the list by ZIP-PLUS-FOUR would have taken exactly the same amount of time — a fraction of a second — but would have located ALL of the PMB/CMRA voters.
Whatever you think of Stefan, he would do a much better job than Dean Logan. And you would as well, DJ.
With all the back and forth going on up there, is there a strong movement for a third party? Being a left-leaning Libertarian, I can’t help but think that both parties draw on the narcotic of power to further entrench their own policies. Too bad there aren’t anything but minority parties requiring listening and coalitions to make government happen. Too bad assholes like your idiot Vance couldn’t display some statesmanship and challenge all problem regstrations from all sides. But that is too much to ask from the booberosity that lurks the halls of state currently.
Can Randy “Duke” Cunningham retire up there? We’d love to send him up on one of our Gov. Ahnee’s planes.
re 2: Ricard: It has come to my attention that many of the hi-jackers from 9/11 had previously eaten baked potatoes at WENDY’s and were observed consuming them after having applied salt and pepper to their starchy victuals. Therefore, I propose that those who have consumed these starch-laden orbs at WENDY’s in a manner similar to the hi-jackers be deprived of their right to vote. It just makes good Republican sense.
re 2: Richard: Criminals have also been known to receive mail at houses , apartments, ranches, farms and businesses. Any suggestions about preventing these people from voting? GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.
@54
Those are the only ones that they can find phone numbers for… they don’t know and furthermore, it’s only a check of New Yorkers against two states. Since both states purge and add voters every election, they truly don’t know and they estimate that name duplicates could lower it to 33 thousand. You also forgot to mention that 68% of those registered were democrats. No matter how you slice it, people are voting twice in very large numbers. Is it deliberate fraud? A lot of people truly don’t know they can’t, some think it’s their right, some know they are doing wrong. There is one particular woman in Seattle that voted twice in Nov 2004, twice in the primary and submitted two ballots for Nov 8. She votes absentee and she receives TWO ballots for every election. She has two different voter ID numbers. She was on the list the GOP submitted. She was highlighted in several news articles and she was reported to Norm Maleng’s office in Aug according to Bobbie Egan. Within minutes of Stefan posting pictures of both of her voter registrations, someone had posted her phone number. Double voting happened in numerous counties in Washington, but because King County has the most voters, the rest of us don’t matter. Sam Reed’s office got millions to educate voters, he could start with commercials telling voters to vote once only.
Bamajenk,
What an interesting name, Dude! By the way, I am not a Dude,
So is anyone going to challenge this person’s registration?
http://soundpolitics.com/Micke.....ration.pdf
Can you prove with “clear, cogent and convincing evidence” that Mr. Mouse does not exist?
http://phone.people.yahoo.com/.....ess+Search
And even if you can, how are you going to provide Mr. Mouse’s actual residence address?
These Republifascists are still claiming -even in the face of all right and reason– that elections are not fair and honest in King Cty.
I hope they prosecute that rich, old,Mercer Island, Republican battle-ax, Pussy Sotelo, for her illegal tampering with an official government form and the hundreds of lies she told by signing tose illegal affidavits under false and illegal circumstances. In fact, Vance should be prosecuted as well for his illegal public fabrications about ILLEGAL GOP VOTER SUPPRESSION SCAMS.
I wonder what Sam Reed’s office would do if someone printed out the PDF file with Mr. Mouse’s voter registration that Stefan posted on his website, and mailed it to the Secretary of State P.O. Box in Olympia that the form instructs these forms to be sent to?
Hey Dick,
I can challange Mr Mouse’s registration on the basis of his failure to provide the last 4 of his SSN. No address required, Mr Mouse has failed to show that he is a citizen.
Well, Dick, Reed would reject because it lacks the required info. next.
Sorry John. You will lose.
Mr. Mouse does not have the burden of proof in a voter challenge procedure. YOU DO, and you have to prove it by CLEAR, COGENT AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE as well. If Mr. Mouse simply ignores the hearing notice from Mr. Logan’s office and doesn’t appear at the hearing, you will not be able to prove your case. YOU LOSE!
And if you are somehow able to meet the impossible burden of proving that a possibly fictional character really doesn’t exist, your challenge will still be procedurally deficient.
RCW 29A.08.830(1) requires IN ALL CASES that “The person filing the challenge must furnish the address at which the challenged voter actually resides.”
Good luck providing the actual residence address of a fictional character!
@72,
You would lose, you do not have to prove you are a citizen in this state to vote.
No Dick, you lose. Just like your loser her Sharkansky.
Since Mr. Mouse failed to provide the last 4 of his SSN, he should not have been registered. Now a potical grandstanding challange might be problematic, but I’m willing to bet that any county auditor, who had this registration pointed out to them would remove it from the books. You see it doesn’t have to be confrontational, you rethugs just like it that way.
By the way John, the last four digits of the social security number or state ID card do not have to be provided under RCW 29A.08.210 until after January 1, 2006. So the application must be processed by Sam Reed’s office, despite Mr. Mouse’s inability to provide his last four.
http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/inde.....on=section
And the new requirement under RCW 29A.08.210 that take effect on January 1, 2006 include the following:
“An applicant for voter registration shall complete an application providing the following information concerning his or her qualifications as a voter in this state: …
(7) The applicant’s Washington state driver’s license number or Washington state identification card number, or the last four digits of the applicant’s Social Security number if he or she does not have a Washington state driver’s license or Washington state identification card;
(8) A check box for the applicant to indicate that he or she does not have a Washington state driver’s license, Washington state identification card, or Social Security number;”
So if Mr. Mouse does not have a Washington driver’s license, Washington state ID card, or social security number, all he has to do on the new form that will be used starting January 1, 2006 is to check that box, and his voter registration will be processed.
SERIOUSLY — not every person eligible to vote in Washington has a state driver’s license, state ID, or SSN. REALLY. If someone was born here to a foreign parent temporarily attending UW years ago, they are a United States citizen. If they moved back with their family to India, Korea or Iran, they have no reason whatsoever to get Washington state identification or apply for a U.S. social security number. BUT THEY ARE STILL ELIGIBLE TO VOTE! State and federal law allow U.S. citizens living outside the country to register and vote in the state of their last residence.
Janet S. @ 37
My, what a provincial, small-minded attitude. In the future, please do not make any claim to holding to any principles. You’ve shown your true colors.
And here is some more information for John, before he decides to challenge the sacred voting rights of Mr. Mouse:
“If the individual does not have a driver’s license, state identification card, or Social Security number, the registrant must be issued a unique voter registration number in order to be placed on the voter registration rolls.”
RCW 29A.08.010, “Information required for voter registration.” (Effective January 1, 2006.)
http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/inde.....on=section
So Sam Reed will simply issue Mr. Mouse his own unique voter registration number :)
And it is probably a good thing that Mr. Mouse has stated that he doesn’t have a social security number or Washington state driver’s license or ID number.
If Mr. Mouse put a fake number on his voter registration application, it would not get processed if submitted after January 1, 2006:
RCW 29A.08.107
Review by secretary of state. (Effective January 1, 2006.)
(1) The secretary of state must review the information provided by each voter registration applicant to ensure that the provided driver’s license number, state identification card number, or last four digits of the Social Security number match the information maintained by the Washington department of licensing or the Social Security administration. If a match cannot be made, the secretary of state or county auditor must correspond with the applicant to resolve the discrepancy.
(2) If the applicant fails to respond to any correspondence required in this section to confirm information provided on a voter registration application within forty-five days, the applicant will not be registered to vote. The secretary of state shall forward the application to the appropriate county auditor for document storage.
(3) Only after the secretary of state has confirmed that the provided driver’s license number, state identification card number, or last four digits of the applicant’s Social Security number match existing records with the Washington department of licensing or the Social Security administration, or determined that the applicant does not have a driver’s license number, state identification card number, or Social Security number may the applicant be placed on the official list of registered voters.
(4) In order to prevent duplicate registration records, all complete voter registration applications must be screened against existing voter registration records in the official statewide voter registration list. If a match of an existing record is found in the official list, the record must be updated with the new information provided on the application. If the new information indicates that the voter has changed his or her county of residence, the application must be forwarded to the voter’s new county of residence for processing.
http://www.leg.wa.gov/rcw/inde.....29A.08.107
By truthfully stating that he doesn’t have any social security number, or Washington state driver’s license or ID number, Mr. Mouse avoids the frustration of the verification process by Sam Reed’s office, and gets registered to vote with his own unique voter ID number issued by the Secretary of State.
As for as the procedure Sam Reed should use under RCW 29A.08.107(3) to “determine” that Mr. Mouse does not have one of these ID numbers, it should be sufficient to take Mr. Mouse’s word for it — since he would have stated so under penalty of perjury on the registration form.
Even if Sam doesn’t accept Mr. Mouse’s registration form at face value, he can still “determine” that Mr. Mouse doesn’t have any of these ID numbers by checking “the information maintained by the Washington department of licensing or the Social Security administration” pursuant to RCW 29A.08.107.
Although there are 27 people named “Mickey Mouse” who have listed residential telephone numbers (and perhaps more with unlisted numbers), the odds are pretty high that no “Mickey Mouse” born on November 18, 1928 appears in either the DOL or SSA databases.
Once Sam does this additional checking of this somewhat suspicious registration, he can feel perfectly comfortable registering Mr. Mouse using the “unique voter registration number” furnished such “persons” under RCW 29A.08.107.
that’s nice Dick, now how about telling us why the KCGOP didn’t use the unbelievably simple method of zip+4 when the concocting their error-laden challanges.
Oh, and BTW Dick, if the laws are contradictory isn’t the correct answer to change the laws, not disregard them as the KCGOP sees fit?
sgmmac @ 67
No matter how you slice it, people are voting twice in very large numbers.”
No…all we know is that there was potential for double voting. And, if there was any at all, it certainly was not in large numbers.
“Is it deliberate fraud? A lot of people truly don’t know they can’t, some think it’s their right, some know they are doing wrong.”
Right…but what everyone can agree on (regardless of their political swing) is that people who vote twice should be prosecuted. It is in everyone’s interest.
“There is one particular woman in Seattle that voted twice in Nov 2004, twice in the primary and submitted two ballots for Nov 8. She votes absentee and she receives TWO ballots for every election. She has two different voter ID numbers. She was on the list the GOP submitted. She was highlighted in several news articles and she was reported to Norm Maleng’s office in Aug according to Bobbie Egan. Within minutes of Stefan posting pictures of both of her voter registrations, someone had posted her phone number.”
Sorry…I don’t read uSP—way too much groundless speculation there. I would guess there is a very good chance that Stefan fucked up. In any case, if she voted twice, she should be prosecuted. The woman (or women) should get the benefit of doubt if Sharkansky is the only source of this accusation. I’ll remain skeptical until an indictment comes from Maeling.
“Double voting happened in numerous counties in Washington, but because King County has the most voters, the rest of us don’t matter.”
I am not sure what you are getting at here—you seem to be suggesting that KC should be investigating other counties. :-)
But, double voting did not happen in numerous counties in Washington during the 2004 election. The six voters identified by all parties in the 2004 election contest all came from King County. Granted, if the entire state had been scoured for double voting, a few more cases may have popped up. But, geez, millions of bucks were spent (and perhaps millions more in donated time) to find illegal votes of all types, and they only found six double votes (KC found an additional double voter).
“Sam Reed’s office got millions to educate voters, he could start with commercials telling voters to vote once only.”
Hmmmm…that doesn’t seem very cost effective. Do you think there is much chance that media commercials would have reached any of the six (or seven) double voters in 2004?
Oops…my previous post is for 77, no 67
Richard Pope @ 84
“Good luck providing the actual residence address of a fictional character!”
And…good luck in getting a fictional character to vote!
Richard Pope @ 90
” If the applicant fails to respond to any correspondence required in this section to confirm information provided on a voter registration application within forty-five days, the applicant will not be registered to vote. “
How does a fictitious person respond to correspondence?
If the mail is going to a real address would a real person respond? I mean, wouldn’t that easily open them up to charges of perjury?
Richard Pope,
How many of your challenges were upheld?
Just curious.
John @ 92
Actually, the voter registration laws in question are not the least bit CONTRADICTORY. They are PERFECTLY CLEAR. Mr. Mouse MUST be allowed to register if he says he doesn’t have an SSN, WDL, or WAID number. And it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to successfully challenge his registration or prevent him from casting his ballot and getting it counted. The word RIDICULOUS should be used to describe these laws, not CONTRADICTORY.
The election laws in question were passed by the state legislature — both houses of which are controlled by DEMOCRATS and signed by a DEMOCRAT governor.
The best solution, as you point out, is to CHANGE the laws — by electing a REPUBLICAN legislature and REPUBLICAN governor to accomplish this task.
By the way — I haven’t seen any DEMOCRATS proposing to change these RIDICULOUS laws. They would rather criticize REPUBLICANS than propose any sensible public policy solutions.
DJ @ 96
You are misreading the statute in question — RCW 29A.08.107, which takes effect on January 1, 2006. It has four paragraphs, which must be read in the order provided.
RCW 29A.08.107(1) — requires SecState to match SSN, WADL or WASID number with DOL or SSA databases IF the applicant has provided such a number. IF the number provided doesn’t match, the SecState or CoAud write to the applicant to resolve such a discrepancy.
RCW 29A.08.107(2) — application will be denied only if applicant fails to respond to REQUIRED correspondence within 45 days. RCW 29A.08.107(1) REQUIRES correspondence from SecState or CoAud if the ID number provided doesn’t match. NOTHING anywhere in RCW 29A.08.107 REQUIRES any further correspondence if the applicant marks the box to indicate that he or she has no SSN, WADL or WASID number.
RCW 29A.08.107(3) — relevant portion requires the SecState to determine that the applicant doesn’t have a SSN, WADL, or WASID. Presumably, the applicant’s registration form, completed under penalty of perjury, satisfies this requirement without further inquiry — just like the applicant’s citizenship status, date of birth, residence address, gender, etc. must be taken at face value. If the SecState decides to selectively second-guess Mr. Mouse’s application based on “name profiling”, all he needs to do is reference the DOL and SSA databases — which will almost certainly confirm that this particular Mr. Mouse indeed does not have a SSN, WADL or WASID number.
RCW 29A.08.107(4) — nothing in this section would hinder Mr. Mouse’s application, since he will be assigned a unique voter ID number to take the place of the SSN, WADL or WASID number, and Mr. Mouse will obviously not be matching any existing voter records.
Richard the problem with your whole ‘mickey mouse’ exercise is the same problem you have with your whole ‘getting rid of all PO Box registrations’ exercise. There really may be someone whose name is mickey mouse. As we have seen, some PO Boxes are valid. The requirement for registration for non traditional homes is nearest government building (not nearest county building) and a Post Office is, last I checked, a government building.
I have known too many women named ‘bambi’, yes after the cartoon, to doubt that someone with the last name of mouse would automaticaly exclude mickey from child name choices. I have met people whose name is the same as common foods and a few that had the same full name as notorious criminals from the 1800’s (not posting them for obvious reasons — they are real names of real people.)
As I have said before, the republicans have only proven that the king county elections board has performed a good faith effort to purge the rolls as far as they could without excluding legitimate voters.
‘Its too hard to comply’ is no excuse for ignoring the law.
So tell me, 158 legitimate voters were forced to forgo a day of work to go defend their right to vote because of Sotelo’s purjury. She swore that she know these individuals listed an invalid address (and lied in doing so). Is the republican party going to compensate these individuals for time that they took off as they were defending themselves against this bogus accusation?
Dick @98
By the way – I haven’t seen any DEMOCRATS proposing to change these RIDICULOUS laws. They would rather criticize REPUBLICANS than propose any sensible public policy solutions.
You obviously didn’t follow the last legislative session. Perhaps the biggest proposal/solution for sensible public policy — to move the primary up to June — was shot down by repulsivecans. The move was suggested to provide more time for counties to maintain voter lists between the primary and general election, provide more mailing time to absentee and miltary voters, and to provide voters with more time to vote legally.
There were dozens of proposals, most of the common sense solutions were shot down by the repulsivecans.
So Dick, there are NO REPUBLICAN legislators? I’m fairly certian that there are, and that if they chose to, they could submit a bill to change the election law. Have any of them done so? Last I checked all the REPUBLICANS needed to propose changes to existing law was a single member of either of the state houses.
So again, I ask, and I’m sure you’ll ignore again. If the zip+4 method of finding voters registered at commercial mailboxes is as simple and obvious as you claim when berating Logan, why didn’t the KCGOP use it, rather than submit challanges with such a high failure rate? Is it not possible to contain such a proceedure to King County?
Wow! There’s almost a hundred posts on this thread by the time I see it for the first time! That’s the trouble with working the graveyard shift. I departed from Stefan’s garden at daybreak after spending all night doing what comes naturally to cute fluffy little bunnies — eating vegetables.. I just crawled out of burrow and stretched my furry paws equipped with razor sharp claws that will rip you a new belly button if you pick me up by my pink ears. Yawn! And here’s a brand new thread with 94 posts! Well, I’m not gonna read all these comments, the troll posts are 100% bullshit anyway.
@3
Richard — so now you equate homeless voters with the 9/11 hijackers? No wonder you can’t get elected to anything. You’re insane!
@5
“And don’t try to talk to them about error ratios”
Don’t talk to them about the error ratios in their I & S* challenges, either.
* I & S = intimidation and suppression
@9
If there’s a way, there’s a will — i.e., if there’s a way to disenfranchise Democratic voters, the GOP has the will to try it.
John @102: If the zip+4 method of finding voters registered at commercial mailboxes is as simple and obvious as you claim when berating Logan, why didn’t the KCGOP use it, rather than submit challanges with such a high failure rate?
John: The answer is that the repulsivecan ‘expert’, Shark boy, knows this method is flawed, but he’s willing to lets dupes like poor Dick carry his torch. Besides, there’s no free press in cooperatively working to clean up the voter rolls, now is there?!
@12
“The auditors say they monitor the voter rolls, but they won’t actually remove an illegal voter just because that voter can’t supply a legal residence. But they don’t want the average guy to challenge.”
Ummm … Janet, it’s STATE LAW that establishes voters’ rights and protects voters from yahoos like Lori Sotelo interfering with their rights. The auditors have to follow state law. Neither political parties nor “the average guy” an file whimsical mass challenges. That not only protects the rights of individual voters, but also protects the public from a party stealing an election by manipulating the voting. Just remember this, Janet — anything your side can do, our side can do too.
Bill @ 100
NO ONE was FORCED to take any time off “work”, much less miss a whole day of it. The vast majority of challenged voters did not respond at all. Moreover, state law allows the challenged voter to submit a declaration or affidavit, instead of appearing personally. And if they did show up, all the hearings were scheduled at 4:30 p.m. to be more convenient to most working folks.
I went to the hearing on Wed 11/23/2005, at which 7 of my challenges and probably about 20 of Ms. Sotelo’s challenges were considered.
I think only 1 of the voters that Ms. Sotelo challenged for that day’s hearing showed up — and Ms. Sotelo withdrew the challenge. It was the prominent musician who used to be with SoundGarden, who admitted that he was improperly registered at a mailbox facility and would have LOST if Ms. Sotelo had not withdrawn her challenge.
I don’t believe any of the voters Ms. Sotelo challenged submitted written statements (other than their absentee or provisional ballot envelopes, all of which were copied and introduced into evidence by King County Elections).
Out of the seven voters I challenged that day, NONE of them appeared, and 1 of them submitted a separate written statement.
Ironically, a bogus absentee registration is impossible to challenge if the “voter” doesn’t appear. There will be NO EVIDENCE as to where the “voter” actually lives in such cases. The absentee ballot envelope is signed under penalty of perjury, but simply contains the pre-printed mailing address (used for the window envelope that absentee ballots are mailed in to the voter). There is nothing where the “voter” could be tricked into giving their real residence address.
ALMOST ALL of the successful challenges were from poll voters. They had to complete a provisional ballot envelope, instead of depositing a regular ballot into the machine. The provisional ballot form requires the voter to state both their residence address and mailing address under penalty of perjury.
HONEST poll voters put their ACTUAL RESIDENCE ADDRESS on the provisional ballot envelope. As a result, those challenges were upheld — and the voter registration was CANCELLED (as opposed to being corrected to the new address). While these HONEST poll voters can complete a new registration form and provide their real residence address, and vote in future elections, their vote in this election was cancelled, and they will have a new voter registration number starting with “05” which ignores all their previous years of voting history under their cancelled registrations.
DISHONEST poll voters, on the other hand, simply listed their private mailbox address, where there were registered to vote, as their actual residence address on the provisional ballot envelope. The two Democrats on the canvassing board accordingly ruled that Ms. Sotelo (or myself) had not met the required burden of proof, and denied the challenges.
As for people who actually RESPONDED by appearing in person or submitting a separate written statement, most of these folks LOST and had their voter registration cancelled. Most people who submitted written statements actually listed their real residence address and lost due to their honesty. If someone appeared in person, they were placed under oath and basically had to answer as to where they really lived. Only a few voters that appeared in person were able to defeat their challenges — such as David Combs, who was really a homeless person that hung up near the mailbox facility and occassionally even spent the night sleeping on the floor.
for all liberals who think vote fraud is okay…think about this
““When people come in to register, we take their word,” she said. “They have signed an affidavit (the registration form), and we take their word for it.”
go ahead….try this at a bank. and that isn’t even half as important as your vote.
goldy you are so transparently a toady for the democrat’s “gang” [i still can’t believe that an attorney would use THAT line!] it’s sad.
you have become irrelevant.
Comment by christmasghost— 11/29/05 @ 12:57 pm
**Snicker** **Snicker**
Well said ChristmasGhost! Couldn’t have said it better myself. For once we agree. Hahhahahahaha hahahahaha. Here put the cliff notes for you here:
Evelyn Arnold is the auditor in Chelan County,. . . a Republican,. . . she testified in May as the leadoff witness for the GOP in its legal challenge to the 129-vote victory of Democrat Christine Gregoire in the 2004 governor’s race.
“When people come in to register, we take their word,” she said. “They have signed an affidavit (the registration form), and we take their word for it.”
That’s what she, Evelyn Arnold said in sworn testimony in a court of law.
Now, either she was lying, or republicans just don’t take voter fraud seriously in repubican counties. Which is it, Ghost?
After all, YOU do take fraud seriously, right?
John @ 102
Believe it or not, I was prepared a response to your question (actually the same question proposed around # 91 or so), but the power in my neighborhood went out and it disappeared from my computer :(
The short answer is that taxpayers pay Dean Logan a generous salary and provide him a generous budget for a large office staff to properly maintain voter registration rolls. There is no excuse for Logan to fail so miserably in performing the duties required by law.
The King County GOP is a voluntary organization supported by private contributions. The King County GOP is not charged with the duty of cleaning up voter rolls, but merely undertook this as a voluntary effort on its part.
While it is unfortunate that the King County GOP did not use easily available technology in its effort, that in no way excuses Dean Logan’s miserable failure.
Wow Dick @111,
Better call you a whaaaaaaaambulance. Seriously, that was one heaping stinking pile of whiny shit you offered up there. The KCGOP is not without resources, and as for your claims that Logan has failed in carrying out his duties as required by law, the REPUBLICAN (hey I thought there weren’t any in office in WA) secretary of state disagrees. Now who’s opinion should I give more wieght to, an elected official or a partisan hack, who can’t get himself elected?
I will be more then happy to take up the leftist cause on this as soon as they can tell me why requiring people to follow clear rules on registration is disenfranchising anyone.
There is provision made for homelessness with a list of acceptable public facility addresses for them to use. There is provision made for mailing versus residential address.
The rules clearly state you cannot use a PO Box. Allowing people to circumvent this with commercial mail services is not preventing disenfranchisement. It’s simply being lazy and allowing a free for all in a process that should be as secure as possible.
Like it or not, since no one is claiming that just democrats are guilty of doing this, your vote’s representative value is just as dilluted as anyone’s.
All I will say of a partisan nature, is that only the democrats are defending it, and I must wonder why.
So how was it ok for Sotelo to drag David Combs into court swearing that she knew that he did not live where. . .he actually lives? If he is homeless, one day off not looking for what work he can get may make the difference between life and death, literally. What give her the right to do that? This was no ‘honest mistake’, it was flat perjury. You can not simply remove all PO boxes with no further examination, and that is what you and Sotelo did.
You yourself, if you only went so far as to find out that a box is a PO Box committed perjury if you swore that you knew that it was not a residence the residence of a voter. As you have seen with David Combs, the fact that its a PO Box does not imply that it is not a residence. What will you do to make ammends?
sven, The rules clearly state you cannot use a PO Box no they dont.
Bill,
Poor choice of words, but in essence I am correct:
from http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._11_07.htm
Voter rolls are cleaner. Registrations where a voter uses the words “P.O Box or PMB” are not processed until the voter provides a residential address. More than 18,000 duplicate registrations have been merged and the work continues between elections. The names of 8,900 deceased have been removed from the voter rolls. Since June, two countywide mailings resulted in 73,000 voter registrations put on inactive status.
The fact is that a PO box must be accompanied by a valid residential address.
Also sven, you are making the huge, wrong-headed assumption that anyone criticizing Sotelo is defending fraud. You are making the further assumption that anyone doing either is a democrat.
Thus you end up in JCH’s and Cynical’s twisted world where democrats are all evil because anyone disagreeing with them must be democrats.
I am not a democrat, in fact I believe that all political parties are evil and are frankly unAmerican and probably are illegal. I am not a member of any party.
Sven, unless the PO box is the residential address, which is allowed in cases of alternate living (ie, homeless). Note that post offices are government buildings and the statute gives examples, it doesn’t pretend to list all possible choices.
Bill,
All the public officials who are opposing this seem to be democratic or liberal. Perhaps that is just partisan knee jerking due to the fact the republicans are challanging it.
But on the other hand I have seen very few registered democrats actually trying to fix this.
As I said earlier, I just wonder why the democrats )in the form of the Washington Democratic Party) will not step forward and help ensure there are no fraudulant voters?
Either: the knee jerk reaction to automagically oppose anything a republican does is paramount- in which case they have sacrificed principle for politics- or they dont want to ensure there is no fraud. I am open to alternative theories.
My apologies to non partisans such as you as well, I should not lump people into binary forms.
But regardless, the fact still remains, there seesm to be more rules protecting fraud then fighting it. Voter registration, Identification and residency should be complete no brainers. If anyone cheats, we all lose.
How is this a good thing, regardless of party or affiliation?
Bill,
Homeless people are clearly required to submit the address of a *public* facility in lieu of an actual physical address.
In that case the street address of the post office would be the address, not the PO box, just as the homeless used the county admin building itself.
“The King County GOP is a voluntary organization supported by private contributions. The King County GOP is not charged with the duty of cleaning up voter rolls, but merely undertook this as a voluntary effort on its part.”
So voluntary organization = allowed to do a half assed job?
How is a post office not a public facility? Those who used the county admin building had theirs changed by the board so that it specifies a suite. This has been commented on repeatedly. An address is not just a street address if there are more than one valid addresses at that street address, the box number must be specified.
To stretch that analogy, thats like saying noone living in an apartment building is legally registered, they live on a floor in an apartment, not in the box with the label.
You may be right, but all I am seeing from the republicans is ‘this is how it could be done’ and outright fraud and perjury. My feeling here is that the most vote related fraud I have seen this year is all these acts of perjury.
Don’t get me wrong, if the dems did this (as several whack jobs have suggested they do next year) I would be just as outraged.
sven, response in filter, it will be a few min, hold tight.
did you say a bad word?
:)
I used a word that might get caught in a spam filter because its a bit to close to one that gets used in ads a lot (when parsed as a regular expression). I really should know better.
no no, this is where people decry Goldy and his rabid filtering!
;)
Which to date he has never done that I have seen.
:)
The wait is still going on for Vance and Sotelo to announce the “Chelan Voter’s Integrity Project” … surely it is just a matter of time. Their motives are pure and an illegitimate voter is an iilegitimate voter whether they live in Wallingford or Leavenworth …
Waiting …
Waiting …
GBS…….as usual you do not disappoint with your ignorance. here you take the time to cut and paste and yet you didn’t even read what i wrote. the term “knee-jerk liberal” comes to mind.
i don’t care what party Evelyn Arnold is from…..you fool. she is an I-D-I-O-T.
and you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting vote fraud. because that’s what you are doing. the statue of lenin is very apropos.
it’s not what party you are in …don’t be a short sighted idiot…..it’s what’s right….not who’s right.
because next time what you are doing to others now will be done TO YOU. think about it at least.
and ,no, cunningham was not in my district….for whoever made that comment. so you people in seattle are not only short sighted in the honesty category you are geographically challenged as well?
sad………
@118,
Are post offices really government buildings? The US Post office in my city isn’t. It is in a shopping center and is leased.
bill@117 sez—
“Thus you end up in JCH’s and Cynical’s twisted world where democrats are all evil because anyone disagreeing with them must be democrats. ”
I never said all Dems are evil. I voted for 7 of them in the last election you idiot.
What I feel is that LEFTIST PINHEADS are a bunch of CLOWNS.
The “Progreesive” movement is not evil….but it’s riddled with unintended consequences that will have a hugely negative impact on our economy and individual freedoms. It is way too “Community-based” vs. Individual. Progressives demand we cave-in to our “neighbors” even when they are assholes and CLOWNS like you bill!!!
Not all Dems are LEFTIST PINHEADS.
My assessment bill is that you are a CLOWN!!!
Arrogant, elitist, and quite silly!
VAST CONSPIRACY – only the minds of the parinoid and caste system R’s
Interesting to see in these post just how different we view other people.
A very high percentage, in the 90’s pf adverage
Americans are so goody they have never had a parking ticket. They do not beat theri wives, pay their taxes, and do not commit fraud at any plaece in theri lives, certainly not in voting.
Yet all thosefolks are under some strange cloud of suspect by the nut wing posteres here.
And they rant so much about the flawed Liberals. What a sorry mental state you all have. A citizen democracy will have real people, some mistakes, and in America virually no fraud.
Oh, forgot the evil seat of red Washington, the 37th, where they prosecute Catholics and force white conservatives to pay more taxes.
Boeing Boob sez–
“And they rant so much about the flawed Liberals”.
I don’t rant at real Liberals Boob…
I rant at the LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS who deep down inside enjoy reading about our troops being killed, they enjoy tragedies, and would have the government take care of more & more of our needs. Huge difference BOOB.
In my book, not all DEMS are true liberals and are certainly not CLOWNS. And not all true Liberal are CLOWNS.
But all CLOWNS are CLOWNS!!! They are LENIN’S USEFUL IDIOTS and they are LEFTIST PINHEADS!!!!
The DEMS have been hijacked by the fringe LUNATICS every bit as much as the NeoCons have strangled the R’s.
Go ahead and kid yourself BOOB.
Clinton was your guy. He joyfully signed NAFTA and Gat!!!
YeeeeHaaaaaaaaaa Boeing Bob. Did that help your union friends??
The only stand-up guy against NAFTA and GAT was Patrick J. Buchanan….hardly a Liberal. Yet you morons stood by your “Liberal” guy, Bill Clinton.
Go ahead and pretend, fantasize about the plight of labor and the middle-class in this country Boeing Boob.
It was YOUR guy who did it to you!!!!
Boeing Bob-129 ‘..and in America virually no fraud.’
How about your support in abolishing the IRS? Hello…..anybody there?
yearight, and then by abolishing the IRS, we will be abolishing the ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, and MARINES.
Why do you hate America, and want to throw it to the wolves, yearight? Why do you hate our soldiers?
The countdown to the “Chelan Voter’s Integrity Project” kickoff continues. In just a short while, acting on their principles, Vance and Sotelo will be announcing this project to seek out and challenge illegitimate voters in Wenatchee, Chelan, Plain, Leavenworth, and other Chelan County communities. Because an illegitimate voter is an illegitimate voter whether they live in West Seattle or Cashmere … right, Mr. Vance?
Donnageddon-132
Restoring, or at least increasing integrity in the elction system is hating America? I must have hit a nerve to get so much vile pulled out of thin air. Personal attack instead of refutation. Typical, and getting a bit old. Grow up and join the debate.
‘Why do you hate our soldiers?’
Another example of projecting. This coming from a lefty that takes pride in trampling on the morale of troops at war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00745.html
And despite the lefties stabbing the troops in the back here at home, re-enlistment is up. Go figure.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....-dod01.htm
yearight, what does
“Restoring, or at least increasing integrity in the elction system is hating America? ”
have to do with
“How about your support in abolishing the IRS?”
Are you stupid, disingenious, evil, or all of the above. Quit spinning the argument asshole. You want to abolish the IRS, then you hate America and you despise our troops. Quit being such fucking liar and stand by your statements, you nitwit Neo-Con.
@129
@118,
Are post offices really government buildings? The US Post office in my city isn’t. It is in a shopping center and is leased.
Very good point. Does that particular office include PO boxes?
But the question would likely draw down to the definition of “public”.
The WAC says:
WAC 434-208-100 Registering to vote — Nontraditional address.No person registering to vote, who meets all the qualifications of a registered voter in the state of Washington, shall be disqualified because of a nontraditional physical address being used as a residence address. Nontraditional addresses may include shelters, parks or other identifiable locations which the voter deems to be his/her residence. Voters using such an address will be registered and precincted based on the location provided. Voters without a traditional address will be registered at the county courthouse, city hall or other public building near the area that the voter considers his/her residence. Registering at a nontraditional address will not disqualify a voter from requesting ongoing absentee voter status provided the voter designates a valid mailing address.
So in order to solve this, maybe the legislature ought to clarify the code.
Anything to restore some sense of fairness and integrity to a very screwed up system
I agree, that particular phrase is hopelessly vague. However, as its traditional to accept anything not forbidden, all these claims that PO Box registration is illegal are shaky at best. As I said the only fraud I have seen much of are these multiple counts of perjury.
Frankly, anyone ignoring them can only be doing so due to ignorance or having some ulterier motive. This sort of thing is more of a danger to the American way of life than any terrorists ever thought about
Donnageddon-137
Boeing Bob wrote in 131: ‘A citizen democracy will have real people, some mistakes, and in America virually no fraud.’ This to imply there is no reason to scrutinize voters or election officials in America. My natural response was to point out the obvious flaw in that view by using the IRS as an example. If there is no potential for fraud in America why do we need the IRS?
‘Quit spinning the argument’
Not until I start spinning and you stop responding to threads not even read.
‘You want to abolish the IRS, then you hate America and you despise our troops.’
I take it you do not agree with Boeing Bob either. Too bad you must keep using personal attacks based on incomplete or invisible data instead of refuting the argument.
For the record, I support the troops, the CIC and the mission in what will be a 10-20 year war. A war that should have been waged 20-30 years ago. (Yes, even when Reagan was in office.) I predict, however, that a wimpy dem will probably win in 2008 and the US will become the next easy target for the enemy. If I am right the troops will come home, because they will need to be deployed right here in the US.