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  2. 2

    Goldy

    With all due respect, dissing Martin Sheen is below you.     Martin Sheen is an actor and a long term democratic activist. His stand is as principled as that of any other prominent figure. Why is his opinion less valid than anyone elses?

    LIE: Where assisted suicide is legal, there are serious problems

    Sheen’s ad does not say that, he raises concerns that it can be misused.

    FACT: Nine independent studies prove that the Oregon Death with Dignity Act is safe and compassionate, and has been for over 10 years. The Oregonian newspaper recently wrote that “the safeguards are working.”

    The paper may say this but the facts are that the law is largely unused. No one knows why but one reason may be that most physicians will njto participate.

    LIE: 1 in 4 people getting lethal drugs suffer from depression.

    “depression” is a difficult diagnosis, a diagnosis that few psychiatrists would claim to be able to make under the challenging circumstances surrounding a terminal patient.

    LIE: Health plans recommend assisted suicide to save costs.

    FACT: There is no evidence of this in Oregon. It simply has not happened.

    The “fact” is true. The law is largely unused so any talk of its misuse NOW makes little sense. The concern, a real concern, that as written the law does give an financial incentives to patients to take this option and to providers to promote suicide.

    LIE: They would pay to kill me, but they will not give me the medication to try to stop my cancer.

    FACT: Barbara Wagner requested an exotic and unproven treatment, pushed by a doctor who is a noted opponent of death with dignity. While her insurer denied the exotic and unproven treatment was denied, they did offer to cover other approved treatments as well as pain management to try to comfort her in her final days. Even if tactlessly stated in a letter from her insurer, Barbara also had the option to seek Death with Dignity if her suffering ever became too great.

    The facts here are true. However, the letter from her provider was accurate. The provider and the patient DO benefit financially from I-1000 as currently written.

    Why shouidn’t a provider tell a patient of the financial advantages of suicide?

    LIE: It’s a dangerous idea that could be imposed on the poor, disabled and most vulnerable in our society.

    FACT: Disability, ethnicity, and economic class are irrelevant under I-1000. Only terminally ill patients who have less than 6 months to live and who meet the strict safeguards are eligible to choose death with dignity.

    This is NOT an answer. Under I-1000 there is a strong financial benefit to providers whenever a terminal patient chooses the death option. Sheen, a LIBERAL, has good reason for concern that this option will be misused against those unable to afford expensive terminal care.

    LIE: I-1000 tells doctors it’s ok to give a lethal drug overdose to a seriously ill person.

    FACT: I-1000 allows mentally competent, terminally ill patients who are suffering with less than 6 months to live to receive a prescription for medication that will end their life in a dignified way.

    This is NOT an answer. The “lie” here is accurate. Under current law, a physician may not prescribe drugs for the purpose of killing a patient .. by suicide or any other way. A cahnge of this sort is a major change from our medical traditions.

    LIE: …even if they’re suffering from depression.

    FACT: The patient must be mentally competent. If there is any question about depression, the patient must be referred for a mental health evaluation.

    This is NOT an answer. As above, the idea that a “mental evaluation” can distinguish reactive depression from clinical deression is absurd. Who is competent to make such a decision? God? A state appointed psychologist?? A social worker???

    As Joe Biden might say this is a three letter word NUTS.

    LIE: …your spouse could die by assisted suicide and you wouldn’t have to be told.

    FACT: Family notification is not required because of doctor-patient confidentiality laws. Over 95% of patients in Oregon do consult with their family before choosing death with dignity.

    This is NOT an answer. The “Lie” here is correct. As for the 95%, we are talking about 95% of a very small sample of people who have chosen this option. Certainly one can make a law that requires one to inform at least the next of kin. Why not?

    LIE: People who are ill need real medical care and compassion, not lethal drugs.

    FACT: People who choose Death With Dignity have few medical options left. At the end stages, it is compassionate to allow terminally ill patients the choice of ending their suffering. LIE: My husband received a grim diagnosis…His diagnosis was not only grim but it was wrong.

    FACT: The diagnosis was right, her husband did in fact have a terminal illness. But doctor’s can be wrong about the prognosis, which is why I-1000 leaves the choice of whether to take the medication in the hands of the patient.

    Leaving aside the illogic of the resaponse offered by the proponents, I actually agree with this. For me the issues in I-1000 are not the right to choose death but the rights of privacy and protection from what, as a liberal I might call the ultimate death tax impoverishment.

    LIE: Suicide is a mistake you can only make once.

    LIE: “it’s a dangerous idea

    FACT: I-1000 only applies to terminally ill patients.

    These are an inappropriate responses. For some, suicide is a major moral issue.Indeed for those people, though not for me, that is the crux of this issue. If those are your beliefs, a change in public morality like this IS a major issue.

    LIE: “it’s a step backwards”

    FACT: I-1000 would be a step forwards for patient autonomy, control and choice. The government, religious leaders, and actors shouldn’t be making these decisions. The decision belongs to the terminally ill patient and no one else.

    The best I can say about this claim that someone is lying is that the I-1000 opponents eeem to need a lesson in respect for others opinions, even for those who are religious or employed as actors.

    LIE: “initiative 1000 would open up a loophole that health care insurers could exploit”

    FACT: This hasn’t happened in over 10 years in Oregon. Insurance companies cannot force you to do anything that you don’t want to do. Any that tried would be risking bad press, lawsuits, and financial ruin.


    As above, there is no lie here.     This is a real issue and I-1000 should have been written t protect patients against this issue.

    LIE: “encouraging them to use assisted suicide”

    FACT: This hasn’t happened in over 10 years in Oregon. Coercion, by anybody, is a Class A felony under the law, punishable by life in prison and a $50,000 fine. Additionally, independent studies have found that even if an insurance company could encourage people to use I-1000, there would be no cost savings.


    There is a lie here     … that is the lie that anyone has found that suicide is not cheaper than terminal care.

    As for coercion, what is the line between telling someone that they can save 50,000 by dying now and coercion? As long as we do not have universal health care, I-1000 is intrinsically coercive.

    LIE: ““assisted suicide”

    FACT: I-1000 is death with dignity. These terminally ill patients very much want to live, but cancer or another terminal illness is killing them.

    Newspeak?

    LIE: “it’s opposed by nurses, disability groups, and the 9,000 doctors in the Washington State Medical Association.”

    FACT: I-1000 has a broad base of support, including doctors, nurses, people with disabilities, terminally ill patients, friends and family of terminally ill patients, and voters from across Washington. Additionally, as the Seattle Times reported, about half of the 9,000 doctors in the WSMA support I-1000.

    The proponents bend the truth. The repr5esentative organization all oppose I-1000. One can be3ieve polls if you want .. some say Barack is losing!

  4. 4

    3 That’s a load, Goldy, and you know it. For Martin Sheen, who’s a devout Catholic and has never kept it a secret, to be doing this is no more of a surprise than Joel Connelly’s opposition to I1000, and for that matter, that of a lot of left-leaning Catholics, myself included. If someone asked Michael Moore about it, it’s pretty likely he’d be on the same side.

    “Disingenuous”? How creative of you to use a euphemism for “lying sack of shit” in the same way the Bushistas used it on Moore four years ago to excoriate him for wiping their noses in their own corruption and hypocrisy.

    Our government’s still in the hands of a cadre of fascists out to destroy life as we know it, and they fight really, really dirty. There’s too much at stake in this election cycle for progressives to be chewing each other’s legs off over a comparatively minor issue.

  5. 5

    This seems like the beginning of the “now that we’ve beaten the Republicans, it’s time to evict all the Democrats that don’t automatically vote for anything labeled “Progressive”.

    I’d better start packing.

    I’ve had the “pleasure” of being called a “traitor” by some of my fellow Democrats for any number of positions. They include:

    I’m for allowing students to gather for voluntary prayer in non-school-led groups during lunch and break periods.

    I’m not opposed to restrictions on late term abortions, as long as there is an exception when there is a risk of serious danger to the mother’s physical health. (Yes, Puddy, I agree that the health of the mother argument has been abused in at least a few cases.)

    And this is one more case. Laws against suicide strike me as more than a bit silly, but that isn’t what this law is about.

    Mr. Sheen has a religious problem with suicide, and isn’t trying to hide that. Some folks have a problem with morals and religion entering the voting booth, but as my beliefs are a part of who I am, they go with me everywhere. I expect no less of Mr. Sheen. He’s pointing out what he sees as problems with an initiative he disagrees with. Should he remain silent just because some of those arguments stem from his faith?

    My own problems with this law, however, are less directly related to my faith, and more related to my distrust of any law that makes it difficult to gather accurate data on its implementation.

    For example. In the case of the Oregon law that I-1000 is based upon, the proponents claim that there is no evidence that it is being abused.

    The fact that the law was written in such a way as to prevent any such data from being maintained makes that argument disingenuous at best.

    Are there “death doctors” ready to prescribe lethal drugs on demand for any reason? I would certainly hope not, but exactly what constitutes “six months to live” anyway?

    There is also the argument that this law is written in such a way that forces the patient to make the decision while he or she is still physically capable of implementing it themselves. The option of waiting to the point where a patient can just tell the doctor or a loved one “I’m ready to go now” and have them help is not available here.

    Put forward a proposition where there is some way of monitoring implementation and most of the other arguments fall away. Yes, I’d still be concerned about coercion and clinically depressed patients, but would find those arguments less compelling if there were some way of monitoring the situation.

    The information doesn’t even need to be available to the general public. Allow for a sealed supplement to the death certificate, along with non-patent-specific data gathering.

    But I’m a suspicious type, and tend to think that when someone is trying very hard to hide something, that there is something that they don’t want seen.

    This law, as currently written, has too many problems for me to support it, and while it can be argued that the opponents are using emotional arguments against it, the proponents are hardly refraining from making emotional appeals.

    And in the end, we still have the proponents of this initiative in the position of trying to prevent the gathering of information about how it is being implemented. That alone should be enough to oppose I-1000.

    Bring me a better law, that allows appropriate monitoring, and I’ll support it. But this one not only does not get my support, but I’ll continue to actively oppose it.

  6. 6

    I’ll second John here. My own decision to vote against I1000, reached after a fair amount of soul searching, was based partly on my admittedly faith-biased view of the sanctity of human life, but even more so on my fear that by codifying details of the circumstances of death into civil law, we’re establishing a precedent that may lead to less than scrupulous politicians delving into what shouldn’t be their damned business. For the same reason, even though I find abortion generally abhorrent, I strongly oppose its legal prohibition.

  7. 7

    John and Arfart

    FWIW …

    seems to me that issues like this get arbitrarily branded as liberal vs. conservative.

    Imagine these slightly different versions of I-1000:

    ” Healthcare providers may encourage the choice to die if doing so will lower the overall costs of healthcare for the terminally ill.”

    or:

    Healthcare provided to the terminally ill must include an option for suicide. Patients shall be informed of all consequences of such actions, including effects on inheritance.

    or:

    Physicians may prescribe suicide as an alternative to patients facing intractable pain, financial loss, humiliating disfigurement, or impoverishment.

    Same idea, different wording, maybe this is wording for a conservative “play” on I-1000?
    In a sense, our current system does JUST this. It is very common for social workers to “helP” the elderly plan on ways to dispose of their estates so as to be eligible for Medicaid. Wouldn’t an initiative to ban impoverishment be a pre-requisite to I-1000 for liberals?

  8. 8

    7 No…but if you were to somehow give me all your money before you shuffle off this mortal coil, I promise I’d find something worthwhile to do with it.

  9. 9

    My point is that in the post Atwater/Norquist/Reagan era, we have all come to accept a disingenuous (to use Goldy’s word) argument that whatever issue one side or the other chooses to take up is then “theirs.”

    I see nothing intrinsically alike about the following:

    I-1000

    Medical Marijuana

    Gay marriage

    Nuclear power and Yucca Mountain

    Privacy of communications

    Presence of a soul in the conceptus

    Prayer in the schools

    Right to bear arms

  10. 10

    I am a nurse, working at Harborview in Seattle. I also do hospice home care.

    This law is not 100% perfect, and I doubt any law ever is. But it is badly, badly needed. There’s a lot of smoke being blown about how it will be abused. This is very unlikely, and after spending 20+ years watching people dying, sometimes quite terribly with unrelievable pain, I very firmly feel this choice needs to be available. Dying in real life is not like a TV drama. It can be gentle and easily managed, or it can be extremely hard. When dying is not going well, people should have the option to create the death they want. The alternative is unmitigated horror and I have seen too much dreadful suffering, in spite of all the pain drugs available, that I will never be able to forget.

    If WA cannot manage to pass this or a similar law by the time I retire or am (god forbid) diagnosed with a terminal illness, I plan to move to Oregon so I can make sure I have the tools everybody should have at the end.

    The decision to end one’s own unendurable suffering should always be a personal one, and cannot and should not be decided by others who may have different beliefs, opposing political views, or who are innocent of the realities of dying.

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