I agree with Danny Westneat:
Let me repeat what he said, because you don’t hear it often: We don’t mind some reasonable tax increase.
I think that’s true. I’d guess people want to see more cutting, first. But they also would rather pay a little more, across the board, than see the schools or safety net or criminal-justice system go all to hell.
So, legislators, just do that.
Even with one of the highest state tobacco taxes in the nation, I don’t mind seeing it rise a little higher. Smoking is a dangerous habit that shortens lives and costs businesses and government billions of dollars in lost productivity and higher health care expenses. Increase the cost of smoking and fewer people will smoke; that’s a clear social benefit.
But as a primary means of addressing our state’s interminable budget crisis, well, that’s just plain cowardly and dumb.
Legislators love to over-rely on sin taxes because they tend be relatively politically palatable, but they’re also the most regressive, and by far. A $3.00 tax on a $1.00 cigar translates to a rate of 300%, whereas it only amounts to a 10% tax on a luxury cigar that would otherwise retail for $30.00. It’s easy to figure out which income groups are impacted the most by such a tax.
But just as importantly, from a budgetary perspective, sin tax increases just don’t produce enough revenue, and simply aren’t sustainable.
One of the arguments in favor of increasing tobacco taxes is that higher costs decrease consumption, undoubtedly a social good, but that also means that from a revenue perspective, higher taxes also produce diminishing returns. Combined with the fact that the real-dollar-value of unit-based excise taxes inevitably decreases over time as it is eaten away by inflation, and the economics simply don’t allow for the state to wring significant new revenues from an already highly taxed commodity.
So while from a social engineering perspective I’ve got nothing against raising tobacco taxes, Democratic legislators who think that this might somehow answer constituent demands for new revenue to fill a significant portion of the state’s current $2.6 billion revenue deficit, well, they’re smoking something else entirely.
On the heels of last year’s devastating all-cuts budget, another mostly-cuts budget simply isn’t a reasonable alternative to anybody interested in maintaining a level of government services and investment necessary to sustain the quality of life in Washington state, while moving our economy forward. And even if Washington receives the additional $700 million in one-time federal funds Gov. Gregoire’s proposals anticipate, that would do nothing to address the budget crisis looming in the next biennium.
As politically painful and unpopular as it may appear to be, legislators need to start debating a broader based tax increase that can produce significant new revenue now, and for the foreseeable future. And barring the courage (and time) to wade into the billions of dollars a year in under- and non-producing tax exemptions, the only realistic option for substantial short term revenue is a general sales tax increase, and/or an expansion thereof to additional goods and services.
A general sales tax increase and/or expansion must be on the table this session, and by “on the table” I mean publicly discussed and debated. Yes, this too would be regressive, an impact that could be partly addressed by fully implementing the Working Families Tax Credit. But at the same time we’re talking about a sales tax increase, we also seriously need to discuss and debate an income tax as part of any long term solution.
A bold, courageous and creative Legislature could simultaneously pass both a sales tax increase and the income tax that would supplant it. For example, a temporary, half cent increase in the state portion of the sales tax from 6.5% to 7.0% would generate an additional $500 million a year in new revenue almost immediately, but a high-earners income tax, which would take at least a year to implement and muddle through the inevitable constitutional challenge, could replace the sales tax increase while impacting only the top two percent of households. Raise the income tax a little higher, and we could even knock the state sales tax down to 6% or less.
There are budget solutions beyond endless cutting and praying for federal bailouts. We just need a few legislators willing to lead the way.
This is exactly the conversation that needs to happen. Check out the Rebuilding Our Economic Future Coalition.
http://fusewashington.org/budget
The issue is simple … we do not have any leadership.
Until someone with credibility stands up , Goldy’s question of sin will be irrelevant.
The proble is not that the rationalists arew not good folks. The rpoblme is that none of our good, wise leaders are also visible.
Look whom we have … a Governor who rarely appears in the media and has never been loved, business men who live in gated communities or underground fortresses, one Senator with political skills, the other who seems to think her job is that of elected WA state wonk. Jim McD thinks he is on a world stage, when did he last say anything meaningful about his own state?
Our media leadership is just as bad. On the right we have Faux and shock talk radical right radio 24/7. On the left, the only significant media is the Stranger.
Nuff said?
Run Goldy, run.
Goldy–
You don’t get it, do you??
Your arrogance and ignorance (a bad combo) have lead you down an unsustainable and undesirable path of Massive Deficit Spending, more costly government programs and State Employee Union pandering.
What the people want is to see huge cuts in the cost of government and an IMMEDIATE closing of the gap between Government TOTAL COMPENSATION and the average working stiff outside of government.
I have suggested previously the following–
1) 10% cut in ALL State Salaries
2) 20% cut in Total Benefit Package
3) 20% less Paid Days Off.
Do you really think folks will once again fall for the con-job of holding Schools and Criminal Justice up for extortion??
It’s clearly an example of government working AGAINST We the People by pulling things we do value out of the pile of Bureaucratic Crap and holding them up for ransom.
It is a Union Ploy to deflect attention away from the biggest issues of all–
Government workers are Overpaid, have too high benefits and too many PAID days off.
We also have too many government workers and too much bureaucracy….and no leadership.
Wake up Goldy.
Danny Westneat is a pinhead if he falls for the pull Education and Crime outta the pile scheme.
Why not pull out Wages, Benefits and Paid Time-off??
Why not get rid of the onerous Growth Management Act and other costly over-reaching regulations??
I just talked with a business owner who employs 90 people. His Unemployment Rates DOUBLED this year…even though he had few claims. He called Employment Security and got some pinhead on the phone who told him his rates doubled because they changed the rules taxing folks who keep employees more!
This pinhead got upset when my buddy tried to explain that rising Workers Comp, Employment Security and other fees and taxes were going to cause him to lay people off!!
Total disconnect…and no respect for small business.
Chew on that.
Rich Wood @ 1–
I went to your link and immediately to who this organization is.
http://fusewashington.org/page/content/REFAbout
Labor Unions and the Democrat Party!
You managed to get a few others woven in there to try and disguise what this is.
Let me know when they change the focus from Saving People from Dying and killing our children and making them stupid…to the reality of the Budget driver
Salaries/Benefits/Paid Time-off
My guess is this will never be discussed.
The only thing to be discussed is how to extort more Taxpayer dollars.
No thanks!
Sorry, Goldy! The California cockroaches (D.-CA) instituted a Sales tax AND an Income tax and still managed to spend the state into penury. Dems have dug the hole so deep that California may never get out.
go ahhhnold!
@3 “What the people want is to see huge cuts in the cost of government and an IMMEDIATE closing of the gap between Government TOTAL COMPENSATION and the average working stiff outside of government.”
While we’re at it, let’s also see huge cuts in consumer prices (especially in health care) and an IMMEDIATE closing of the gap between Executive TOTAL COMPENSATION and the average working stiff on the shop floor.
What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Cynical thinks underpaying state employees by only 20% instead of 30% of the salary survey is “pandering” to the state employee unions. Whatever, Klown! You’re a proponent of making sure the state gets the bottom of the barrel of the workforce, because you want government to be as lousy as possible, so you have an excuse to dismantle it. I’ve already quit working and taken my pension. You know why? Because I make more money not working than I did working, that’s why. Want to know something else? My former position has been occupied by four different people, and has been vacant about a third of the time, since I retired. They can’t keep anyone in that job because it doesn’t pay enough. If you think state jobs aren’t worth doing, then just keep doing what you’re doing, because that’s the message you’re sending to state workers.
Oh, and one more thing, Klown. I’ve quit buying from private businesses across the board. There’s a whole list of consumer items I’ve sworn off and don’t buy anymore. And that spending isn’t going to return. Like many of the jobs lost in this recession, it’s gone permanently.
Business owners risk capital.
If they cannot get a reasonable rate of return based on risk….they will stop risking it often resulting in eliminating jobs.
The huge gap between Public & Private salaries/benefits/paid time-off is a systemic problem that is not sustainable.
You can protest salaries of big private companies by not investing or buying their product.
There is no accountability for government workers salaries/benefits/paid time-off.
If you put say 1,000 government jobs out for bid today where minimum qualifications were spelled out…and the job went to a qualified low-bidder. Then you did it for all government jobs.
How much would we save in salary, benefits and paid time-off?
20%??
25%???
At least 25%.
I wonder how long it’ll take the businesses offshoring jobs and cutting wages to figure out they won’t have sales if their customers don’t have money? The lightbulb hasn’t gone on yet.
Here’s what Willie Brown had to say about the state spending issue recently in the San Francisco Chronicle:
“The deal used to be that civil servants were paid less than private sector workers in exchange for an understanding that they had job security for life.
But we politicians, pushed by our friends in labor, gradually expanded pay and benefits to private-sector levels while keeping the job protections and layering on incredibly generous retirement packages that pay ex-workers almost as much as current workers.
Talking about this is politically unpopular and potentially even career suicide for most officeholders. But at some point, someone is going to have to get honest about the fact that 80 percent of the state, county and city budget deficits are due to employee costs.”
@10 “Business owners risk capital.”
So do workers, klown. They have to pay for their own education and training, have to invest in a car to get to work, often have to pay for their own work clothing and tools, and must pay all the other costs of making their labor available to employers. If they can’t get a reasonable return on investment, they’ll stop going to college, won’t buy cars or tools, and won’t work.
@10 “If you put say 1,000 government jobs out for bid today where minimum qualifications were spelled out…and the job went to a qualified low-bidder. Then you did it for all government jobs. How much would we save in salary, benefits and paid time-off?”
Nothing. Since state workers are already paid below market, you won’t find anyone in the private sector willing to work for less. In my job classification, you’ll pay a lot more. Instead of paying a lawyer, say, $35 an hour total compensation costs you’ll pay a commercial billing rate of $175 to $250 an hour for the same work.
Who the hell smokes cheap-ass $1 cigars? That sounds like some nasty shit right there.
@10 Privatizing government jobs hasn’t saved a dime where it’s been tried, but that doesn’t deter idiots like Klown from continuing to peddle their wingnut pabulum.
@12 Well gee, 80 percent of government costs are for personnel, so that’s an easy calculation to make, isn’t it?
But okay, go ahead and knock back public pay to below market levels, and give us stock options in something or other and bonuses like the private sector gets, and we’ll call it even.
@9: OK, Mr. Rabbit, sir. Please elaborate — “…quit buying from private businesses across the board”.
I’m just curious, I’ve downsized, I look harder and try to make good choices and buy local; but I am at a loss as to how to “quit buying” toilet paper, for example.
Here is a Headline Story just in that shows how out of control government spending is–and it has a Washington State flare to it!!
By James Rosen
– FOXNews.com
The Obama administration this month awarded a $25 million federal contract for work in Afghanistan to a company owned by a prominent Democratic campaign contributor without entertaining competitive bids, Fox News has learned.
Another broken promise by Obam-Mao.
And you KLOWNS wonder why the Tea Party Movement is so powerful???
Goldy, folks will not take you seriously with your tear-jerking soap opera theatrical plea for higher taxes when Obam-Mao is doing stuff like this.
PS–
Nice that it came out just before his State of the Union Address which I won’t be watching.
Hopefully the R’s and Tea Party will respond with a list of all Obam-Mao’s lies and broken promises. This is yet another.
Zotz–
Racist Roger Rabbit never buys toilet paper.
PS–
Never shake hands with the pig!
Raising the tax on a $1.00 cigar by 300% won’t produce more revenue; it’ll produce less revenue, because people will quit buying $1.00 cigars altogether — or, more likely, they’ll get them online and avoid the Washington cigar tax altogether. That’s what most people already are doing, so this tax is more symbolic than anything.
Raising the sales tax rate isn’t actually a tax increase, because consumers have given themselves an enormous tax cut by buying less stuff, especially cars. All the rate increase would do is recapture a portion of the sales tax revenues that have been lost over the last couple years.
But, as Goldy noted, diminishing returns applies and raising the rate will result in more tax evasion and less consumption, so you won’t get a proportional increase in revenue. It’s a risky strategy because a half-point sales tax rate increase will push the overall combined state and local sales tax rate over the psychologically important 10 percent mark in the populous Puget Sound counties, where most of the state’s retail economy is, and might cause retail sales to plunge, especially at car dealerships.
Diminishing returns might turn into negative returns, with an absolute drop in sales tax revenues.
@20 Of course I buy toilet paper. In Oregon.
Goldy–
I also love your headline essentially calling those who oppose tax increases in a recession narrow-minded.
That will be a wonderful way to shame folks into supporting tax increases.
Look it…Gregoire and the Dems massively overspent in an unsustainable way when times were good. Now, somehow, Goldy and the Unions want us to accept all the unsustainable spending as the new BASELINE??
Not gonna happen.
Reward irreponsible overspending??
Not gonna happen.
But keep trying the extortion and shaming techniques Goldy. But lets call them what they are.
22. Roger Rabbit spews:
No you don’t.
Clearly to even the most occassional observor, it is clear Racist Roger that you wipe your ass with your head!
@19 You didn’t think Obama would give no-bid contracts to Republicans, did you?
@24 Coulda sworn I was wiping it with your face.
Hmm, we could raise revenue by taxing out of state landlords to death. That wouldn’t bother me any.
@20 “Racist Roger Rabbit”
Good grief, KLOWN, I called Puddy a flying monkey a few weeks ago and you’ve been off the deep end ever since, repeatedly accusing Roger of racism . Get it together, man. Lighten up and tell us another racist joke.
I used to be in the ship maintenance business for the Navy.
The Public yards always, ALWAYS, were 20-30% less expensive and did much better work than the contractors.
Did you know there are usually at least a couple of operating nuclear reactors within sight of the ferry in Bremerton operated by — gasp — public civilian employees? Yep, that’s right, but most folks don’t even give it a second thought! Maybe it’s because the Navy invests in and nurtures fucking professionals — and pays them and provides good benefits.
What’s sad is that not all that long ago, Boeing and other private employers used to be better in terms of pay and benefits than the Navy.
Now, 40% of our economy is inventing and trading crazy financial paper. That’s got to change before any of this gets better.
Increase the cost of smoking and fewer people will smoke;
If smoking is every bit addictive as we say it is, then a rise in cost will mean the addict will forgo other expenses to support their habit. For the rich, no problem. For the poor, it is a regressive tax, if the issue of addiction is not taken into consideration. Unless Goldy doen’t believe that cigarettes are addictive, in which case, he would be siding with Big Tobacco.
@27 What this blog needs is goat jokes.
@28 “The Public yards always, ALWAYS, were 20-30% less expensive and did much better work than the contractors.”
Not only that, you have to hire legions of government inspectors to make sure the private contractors don’t do shoddy work, legions of government auditors to make sure they don’t pad the contract, and legions of government lawyers to fight with them over cost overruns, contract padding, and shoddy work.
But what you really should do is ask yourself whether you want ships that can win a war, or ships built by the lowest bidder.
@30 “What this blog needs is goat jokes”
Hmm, did I just hear a request for goat jokes?
Q: How do Puddy and Klynical go about practicing safe sex?
A: They paint a big “X” on the goats that kick.
@33: Priceless!
@33 I love it!
The pukes can’t get over the fact a black guy is president. They’re fixated on restoring slavery. But they don’t see that as racism. For them, it’s about cheap labor.
$2,600,000,000 divided by FTE “all-in” wage of (assumed) $100,000 equals 26,000.
To balance the budget through lay-offs only would mean firing about 40% of state workers (probably more, since a lot of them are part timers).
Rough, very rough, estimate.
@37: Figures based on 66,000 total # of state employees.
Q: How do Puddy and Klynical go about practicing safe sex?
A: Administer loyalty tests.
@37 $100,000 per worker is way too high for the state. The state’s labor cost is much lower than that.
40. Roger Rabbit spews:
$100,000 TOTAL COMPENSATION is the result of a $67,000 Salary. The difference is Benefits and Paid Time-off.
The other thing you totally miss Proud is the additional costs of having employees commonly called OVERHEAD.
Your attempt to oversimplify this allows you to miss many huge cost savings beyond layoffs.
I say cut the Wages 10%, Beneifts 20% and Paid Time-off 20%…then do some layoffs due to less Paid Time-Off and see where we stand BEFORE WE EVEN START THE HARD CUTTING.
I know you KLOWNS aren’t serious.
Union groupies!
Steve–
Why not sell your Tollycraft and donate the proceeds to the State of Washington??
FTE’s as of 11/09 are 108,000
Wages per State Exhibit
http://fiscal.wa.gov/FRViewer......de+Summary
Wages $2.6 BILLION X 10%== $260 million
Benefits $800 Million X 20%==$160 million
Paid Time-off is 18%…reduce to 14% and save another $135 Million
Mr. Cynical’s Idea #1–
Saves $555 Million!!!
$2 Billion more to go…
Lay-offs 8000 X $100,000==$800 Million plus an estimated 20% overhead== $160 Million more.
Now we are down to $1 Billion!
Get rid of the Superintendent of Public Instruction, Dept. of Ecology, vut the Governors Budget in half….
This is fun!!
We haven’t even gotten into anything hard yet.
Simple way to generate more revenues is to REPEAL the smoking ban.Lower sin taxes and promote the sins you were outlawing….otherwise the recipients of thos lost revenues will be the bootleggers and venues that disavow a draconian law like prohibition and run a smoke easy for thei cutomer base……….keep it up and watch it get even worse for the state coffers,they learned these lessons during the last round of prohibition in the 1930s.
so people spending less of their income is considered giving themselves a “tax break”??? wtf kind of messed up logic is that?
Maybe people are spending less because THEY HAVE LESS TO SPEND! So now you wanna punish them by taxing people more? you are fucking nuts.
the more you tax people, the less they have to spend in the marketplace. The less spent in the marketplace means less services/items needed which means less jobs.
tax people more, watch the jobs go away.
Fact: the State does not PRODUCE anything. Does it accomplish some things? sure, but it does not PRODUCE anything. Funneling more money to the govt can never work in the long term. The money generated by the private market is the money that fuels the government via taxes. The more money you remove from private citizens and companies, means that there will eventually be less money for the govt…
…that it, unless your the fed and you borrow and print your own money – and we will see soon enough what kind of shit storm that is creating.
@46 “Fact: the State does not PRODUCE anything.”
Neither do CEOs, so why do we pay them 500 times as much as workers?
@46 “so people spending less of their income is considered giving themselves a ‘tax break’??? wtf kind of messed up logic is that?”
I don’t create the facts, I only report them. The state is collecting billions less from sales tax. Would you like to argue that’s a tax increase?
@48…only in your sick twisted world.
so go ahead Geobbels, lets raise taxes every time people spend less…brilliant thinking for a retard…
@47…if you dont want to pay CEO’s, then dont invest in their company or buy their products….
We dont have the same choice with the govt.
Personally, I’ve come to feel that being a liberal is a waste of time. I think we should let people like MOT and Max live in the kind of society they want. My time is better spent ripping them off than trying to help them.
%51…..your self loathing is comical.
then again, if I was you, I would hate myself too.