The Israeli Army has killed at least nine people and arrested dozens more after attacking a flotilla trying to bring aid to Gaza. Andrew Sullivan discusses it here. Juan Cole has some additional information, including an email from someone on one of the ships. Glenn Greenwald calls out the glaring contradictions between how we treat Israel and how we treat other countries and groups who do similarly appalling things. Paul Reynolds at BBC News reports on the fallout, including the cancellation of an expected meeting between Netanyahu and Obama originally scheduled for tomorrow.
UPDATE: ThinkProgress has some more links here which do a good job debunking some myths about the effects of the Gaza blockade. What I find most horrific about this action – and the Israeli policy on Gaza – is that it’s a rationalization of the necessity of punishing civilians in order to achieve political outcomes. Normally, we refer to people who think like that as terrorists.
UPDATE 2: TPM has a running timeline of reports.
UPDATE 3: George Friedman at Stratfor has a very sharp piece explaining how Israel is losing the edge in public perception and continues to risk further isolation.
And this is related to Washington State politics how?
#1,
Give it a think. Take all the time you need. I’m sure eventually something will come to you.
Normally when armed men attempt to seize control of civilian shipping in international waters, we refer to it as “piracy”, not as “self-defense.” Likewise, the claim that Israeli soldiers had to kill aid workers because the soldiers were being shot at AFTER they’d boarded the aid ships seems like another peculiar notion of self-defense.
And for those seeking a Washington connection, consider that we as taxpayers are sending billions of dollars each year to that country. It’s quite likely that some of the armaments that met the flotilla were paid for with our taxes.
@2
Give it a think. Take all the time you need. I’m sure eventually something will come to you.
I’m not as sure as you. His tag name really says it all.
@3
Not to mention the fact that our Congressional delegation (with the possible exception of McDermott) never questions the “strategic importance” of our Israeli alliance – even though David Petraeus has questioned it.
When did David limit himself to State politics? IIRC, he outed Heckuva Job Brownie – a tremendous public service that had little to do with Washington. I hope that he will continue to write about anything that captures his interest.
Our friend Jane Stillwater was supposed to be on that ship but couldn’t get the funds together. She’s out of pocket now but will undoubtedly be posting on this tragedy:
http://www.jpstillwater.blogspot.com/
King-5 says that David Schermerhorn, an 80-year-old man from Orcas Island was in the flotilla. Is that local enough?
http://www.king5.com/news/loca.....76049.html
If you want a real “Oh shit!” minute, consider that Turkey is a member of NATO.
All the Torah’s cursed be upon this shaygitz false yehudim, of zionism-freemasonry, criminals !
Israel and “jews” =biggest shame of the world !
Oh, and another Washington connection: one of the vessels in the flotilla was named after Rachel Corrie, late of Olympia.
(You’d think that might have given the Israeli Defense Forces a clue that they were heading into a potential PR disaster.)
lol…..and you are what, suprised??? that israel is really a terrorist country. its founder, david ben gourian was wanted as a terrorist by the british. the world jewish congress routinely intercededson behalf of jewish criminals like russian mobsters. but the worst of it is, lee and i agree on something, so you know there’d a problem somewhere. (he’ll figure it out). meanwhile, rahm is in israel for his son’s barmitzvah, so
i wouldnt put it past him to have had a hand it.
and the funny thing is, i always get attacked for criticizing israel.
I’m sick of hearing about Israel and the Palestinians. We should withdraw this crazy support for Israel and be neutral in this crazy religious dispute. That means existing Afghanistan and Iraq, too. We’ve been fucking around in the Middle East for far too long. It’s none of our business! Let the neighborhood take care of itself!!
Palestinians celebrating 9-11
Think before you defend these “people”. Israel is doing what is has to.
@16
maybe they’re just pissed off the the world took their country from them in 1948 and gave it to israel. i’d love to hear some logical defense of that action.
@15 PI – I agree let God sort em out…
Jetzt ist der ofen aus.
@16: Try thinking yourself:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/.....71,00.html
Israel is doing all the wrong things, and actions have consequences, right?***
***”Actions have consequences”: common conservative justification for using contempt instead of what they consider thought.
@20
Israel is doing all the wrong things, and actions have consequences, right?***
yes they do. and at sometime in the future when terrorsts get hold of/figure out how to build, a nuclear weapon, and use it on washington or tel aviv, everyone will be wringing their hands asking why.
#21 maybe if we spend a few more trillion on our “defense” it won’t happen right? We don’t really need the money, and propping up dictators with oil money always worked in the past too right?
Solution: Carrot and stick. We give “them” one billionth of a mini-carrot and beat their women and children with sticks.
Ever wonder why the TV “news” (Newsspeak) only shows a pool of blood after an attack? Not the arms, legs, torsos, and bloody body parts of the “folks” (children for that matter) affected by our illegal invasion of Iraq, or botched occupation of Afghanistan….. Americans are too squeamish to witness what a predator drone does to “collateral damages” “folks” who happened to be too close to some dude that thinks he is defending his country from foreign invaders, and occupiers.
Maybe if we spent a little more time working on solutions instead of plundering we would still have a few towers standing in Manhattan. Every person on this planet Wall Street can rape is being raped BRUTALLY AND REPEATEDLY…. From Grandma Millie to Joe goat herder in Iraq. Anyone have a problem with that? Just as long as your 401k “grows” all the rape and plunder is fine right? Give us your resources, or die. Kinda like what the Spaniards offered the folks in South America a few centuries back.
What would have happened if Geronimo had a nuke? I am sure he was called a terrorist too….
If you want to get aid to the supposed “humanitarian disaster” in Gaza, do it through the proper channels, hell the Israelis even offered to deliver the supplies (after a security screening of course) by land to Gaza.
Attacking Israeli Commandos with wooden clubs, metal pipes, knives, a gas bomb, a stun grenade and grabbing a commando’s pistol and doing your best to beat and kill them, isn’t exactly intelligent or peaceful.
If these fucked up little dick munchers are what pass for “peace activists” then I am the Crown Prince of Denmark.
It is pretty shocking when MoT agrees with Lee. Hell, I agree with him on this. Of course terrorism must be defeated, but who’s the bigger terrorist here – Hamas or the Israelis? IMHO, PI @ 15 is right on the mark – we need to just take two steps back and tell Netanyahu and his ilk, “You’re on your own. Call us when you decide to play nice with your neighbors – and actually do it.”
Hmmm… Maybe they were singing songs of happiness on the flotilla…
Puddy always finds the real information!
“You’re on your own. Call us when you decide to play nice with your neighbors – and actually do it.”
You gonna play nice with your neighbors, when they lob rockets into your backyard and blow up your kids when they are eating at Pizza Hut?
Give me a fuckin break.
Oh and man of fiction agrees with you Hippie/Dhimmis because hes a fuckin Nazi.
Is HA Antisemitic ?
Obviously I do not think so. Even at his worst Lee means well. nonetheless the acid in Lee’s post is more corrosive than progressive.
There is a progressive view of this. As I just posted at SJ, Gandhi taught that one should resort to violence if and only if you are to weak to use the more powerful tools of non violence.
As a Zionist, I would applaud a non violent effort by the Palestinians. I believe the result would be two, just states. That objective, peace, is not going to be won as long as Hamas insists on terror.
Hamas is at war with Israel and is dedicated at least to its destruction. As a regime, it practices state racism .. teaching its children to hate all Jews, not just the Israelis. Hatred is a poor soil to grow the jobs and schools needed for peace.
Israel is well within its rights to defend itself against Hamas. In that sense Israel is no more guilty of war crimes than the uS was in our fight against the Nazi and Japanese regimes in WWII. Of course, the Civil War, our worst war of all, was almost fully based on “state terrorism.” In case Lee is unaware, in the Civil War, the US destroyed railroads and whole cities .. not military targets but targets that made those evil states able to sustain their wars and keep Americans as slaves.
Oh my more flotilla information.
@29
seattle jew
then how would you defend david ben gouriuans use of terrorism in the founding of israel?
or, the fact that the world took the palestinians land. doesnt that give the palestinians the right to fight back?
Puddy just checked Glenn Greenwald. No mention of the Al Jazeera videos!
Puddy just checked Think Progress. No mention of the Al Jazeera videos!
Puddy hust checked Andrew Sullivan. No mention of the Al Jazeera videos!
Now here is a real set of questions from a level headed person!
@32 mot
as usual, it is impossible to answer your questions because you exist in a different universe.
The “he world never “took the palestinians land” … unless you mean “the world” taking Jewish land because until 1956 the ONLY people called “palestinains” were ..Jews who lived there.
As for ben Gurion and terrorism, I have heard this vague calim many times but never seen any evidence of it,
BUT what the fuck do you care about “truth” hatred is much better.
Turkey drafted a resolution to present to the council that called Israel’s actions “an act of barbarism” and “aggression in the high seas,” and compared it to Somali piracy.
But certainly not comparable to genocide, which Turkey knows something about but has gone to great lengths to deny. Will its citizens also march against this?
Ah, the hypocrisy.
Don’t worry Bama has it covered. He is going to bring out the MOAT…. just watch. hehehe
The British held Palestine before Israel was a state; before that, the Ottoman Empire held Palestine. Read some history, people.
And look at what America is doing — you know, YOUR country. How many civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan have been killed in the last 8 years? Do you care about what our government does?
There is no profit in peace… Remember just the other day the former president of Argentina said Bush told him we grew our economy through war. I don’t know if it is true, but after watching Bush for 8 years I would bet everything I own on it.
War is cool, except for the dead, maimed, and the money… It’s not like the Bush twins were driving around in unarmored Hummers anyway….
There are real solutions. Unfortunately if the world is not “dangerous” then there would be no need to give the military industrial complex all those trillions. Look up PNAC….
By the way I know who’s fault the oil spill in the gulf is.
100% the Republicans fault.
Drill baby drill.
It was not an aid flotilla. It was a publicity flotilla. Israel offered to deliver the aid aboard the boats to Gaza, but the anti-Israel flotilla declined because they wanted the showdown for the publicity.
@37
i totally agree with you sarah. the problem is most american dont understand, or want to, that bush was pressured into that war by jewish zionists and evangelical christians. it was not for the retarded “war for oil” reason.
zionists and evangelicals saw saddam hussien as a threat to israel and therefore replaced him with a puppet government.
@40 so you are saying Greenspan was wrong when he said everyone knew we went to Iraq for oil?
Just 1 word, the Gaza entity is one of many polities in the world which as official policy practices capital punishment for drug offenses. It is unfortunate and unpricipled to carry water for the ISM agenda by us who want genuine drugs reform. So heres to remembering the brutal conditions in Turkish prisons and our error of rescuing their chestnuts from the fire in Bosnia.
Break out the violins!!!
@42, 43
Somebody did something bad to somebody somewhere so it’s ok for the Israelis to keep whole Palestinian communities penned up in a giant concentration camp shut off from the world.
Your logic is the sick logic of lawlessness and amorality.
I’ve heard this talking point from several sources today: it’s ok to kill peaceful Turkish citizens bringing humanitarian relief to Gaza because the Turkish government does bad stuff, or did bad stuff, or won’t admit they did bad stuff once. You guys are like the GOP with your trolls and talking points of the day…
@29
Your anti-Israeli-brutality=antisemitism talking point is so dishonest that it’s main use these days seems to be to help folks like you keep lying to yourselves as you try to justify so many bad acts.
aww sheesh… what’s the point of responding?
Cracked,
Where was your voice when Arafat took all that palestinian aid money and was starving his own peeps while he was burying those $Billions in Swiss bank accounts over the years? You need to see the links again where his widow gets $22Million a year.
Ask the monomaniacal arschloch goatsee. He has all the PuddyLinks in his personal home HA Database.
Thank you very much for this information.
@46
Ooops, Haaretz, a respected Israeli newspaper says no Swiss money.
Switzerland: No sign of Arafat money here
@45 cracked
“Your anti-Israeli-brutality=antisemitism talking point ”
If you want to disagree with me that is fine. What is NOT fine is to disagree with something you make up.
Like most Zionists, I fervently and strongly WANT peace, I want peace. Like all the memmbers of PeaceNow! .. the major world-wide organization for peace in Israel, I want peace based on SUPPORT for the Arabs of the region prospering and having their own state.
And yeh I dislike and distrust and disagree with Netnayahu. Read my posts on the topic at SJ!
BUT … unless you are an anti-semite, how can you support Hamas? Hamas is openly, officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel BECAUSE ISRAEL IS A JEWISH state!
The Lunatic Left continues to jump to conclusions before getting the facts.
Were there any weapons on this rig??
What else was on this rig besides supplies?
Leftist Lunatics attack folks who demand our immigration laws be enforced…and jump to the defense of the anti-Israel in this case too.
This is precisely why Americans had had it with the Atheist Progressive Movement and your numbskull leader Oba-Mao–
Monday, May 31, 2010
And Oba-Mao is -13 today.
Keep up the bad work!
@44…
“it’s ok to kill peaceful Turkish citizens bringing humanitarian relief to Gaza”
So a group of assholes armed with clubs, pipes, knives, etc… and are ready, willing, and wanting to attack and beat IDF personnel with the intent to kill are just “peaceful Turkish citizens”?
Is living in magical upside-down land fun? Ya stooge.
@49
Many of these clowns who are so quick to criticize Israel are totally silent elsewhere. Not a peep on these pages, for example, when US drones kill civilians in Afghanistan – a common occurrence that has left hundreds dead each year . .
“Upon touching down, the Israeli commandos, who were equipped with paint guns and pistols, were assaulted with steel poles, knives and pepper spray. Video showed at least one commando being lifted up and dumped from the ship’s upper deck to the lower deck. Some commandos later said they jumped into the water to escape being beaten. The Israeli military said some of the demonstrators fired live ammunition. Israeli officials said the activists had fired two guns stolen from the troops.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....0053101699
Of course, you’d never know any of this if you depended upon HA.
“it’s a rationalization of the necessity of punishing civilians in order to achieve political outcomes”
I think this should be worded, “it’s a rationalization of the necessity of punishing civilians in order to achieve military outcomes.”
The largest costs of war, in terms of human and property losses, always fall on civilians. It is this fact, more than any other, that makes all wars immoral. And this is the fact that is conveniently overlooked by our warmongering righty friends, who always see military action as the preferred — indeed, the only — solution to social and political problems. Because of this, it logically follows that conservatism is an immoral political philosophy, and conservatives and immoral people. Why would anyone with even half a conscience ever vote for any conservative?
@52
The Israeli Army is actively preventing any journalists from speaking with activists who were on the ship – so all you know is what the IDF is “reporting” happened.
So you’re claiming that the Israeli commandos who boarded the ships and killed a bunch of people trying to bring aid to Gaza were the poor victims here because the people on the ships used pepper spray against them? Are you for real?
It blows my mind how willing people are to believe complete nonsense simply because their sensibilities are too fragile to accept the possibility that the Israelis are the aggressors and are acting in a morally reprehensible way.
@51
How dare these protestors fight back when armed commandos board their ship and start shooting at them!?!
I’d hate to be on a boat with you that gets attacked by Somali pirates. You’d probably give them the combination to the safe. Wow.
Whether you agree with Israeli policy or not, these people were blockade runners, and when you run a military blockade, you should expect to be attacked by the military forces of the country imposing the blockade. That’s how it has worked for hundreds of years. If the people who were attacked by the Israeli forces thought they could simply waltz into Gaza with shiploads of blockaded supplies, they were just plain stupid.
@51 Yeah, well, if you like standing by bully nations, why don’t you add North Korea to your stable of ponies, too?
I sort of feel the Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other. This is a situation in which there are no innocent victims.
The argument that Israel is fighting for survival is pure unadulterated baloney. This conflict morphed from self-defense to self-serving bullying years ago. On the other side of the coin, the only thing the Palestinians have any talent for is self-immolation.
I don’t have a solution for this conflict. There probably isn’t one. There are two sides who both believe they can’t exist unless they wipe out the other side. There’s not much the rest of the world can do except wait for them to fight themselves to exhaustion, and watch the show.
@56
No, they wanted the confrontation – and they got it. But if the IDF thought they could just board the ship without resistance, they were naive.
The problem for the Israelis is that the Gaza blockade is indefensible – so the people behind the flotilla knew that they had a strong hand to play, and they played it. And the Israelis fell right into the trap. Now, they just look like thugs desperately defending their own brutality.
The Israelis are clearly lying about how much food and medicine they’re letting through – and about the well-being of the Gazans. And they’re doing so because they believe that punishing the population of Gaza this way for supporting Hamas is necessary to achieve their political goals (even while recognizing that they can’t openly say that to the rest of the world). They’re caught in a propaganda war where they feel that they’re at risk if they tell the truth about their own strategy.
This is why – as Greenwald points out today in his column – they are completely refusing to allow any reporters to talk to the people on the flotillas, just as they completely refused to let any reporters into Gaza during the last conflict. They’re in a situation where the truth is their enemy, and that’s a no-win situation in the 21st century.
US activist loses eye after being shot in face with tear gas canister
The answer is blowing in the wind.
@59
I’m sure the IDF will have a report out soon about how this girl ambushed them and they had to fire in self-defense.
@3 Close, but not quite right.
When the armed forces of one nation attack a ship of another’s flag in international waters, it isn’t an act of piracy. It’s an act of war.
@29
Even at his worst Lee means well. nonetheless the acid in Lee’s post is more corrosive than progressive.
What? How is my post any different than what Peace Now posted to their website?
There’s no difference between their condemnation of the Gaza blockade and my own. Yet you use your membership in Peace Now to claim to be a voice for peace, then criticize me as corrosive for agreeing with Peace Now’s position.
What?!?
Public opinion doesn’t mean shit, you self-loathing Jew. Did world opinion save the Jews during WW2? Israel has it right. Public opinion doesn’t guarantee their state’s survival, but a proactive self-defense will.
@63: Not with our tax money, you despicable piece of shit.
There are reports of a death list prepared prior to the boarding operation. It was reportedly dropped by one of the IDF soldiers.
Hit list.
Have you ever seen this quote:
“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” – Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.
Interesting. When Israel is led by Bibi, a conservative, American Jewish Philaburbian liberals imply that it’s patriotic to question America’s alliance with Israel.
But when conservative Republican Pat Buchanan questioned the strategic importance of our alliance with Israel (Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as “Israeli-occupied territory” and said that “there are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East — the Israeli defense ministry and its ‘amen corner’ in the United States”) Jewish liberals called him a bigot:
To be fair and balanced, Buchanan sometimes sounds unbalanced, and conservative Wm. F. Buckley — like Foxman — said he couldn’t stand Pat. But suddenly Buchanan’s “anti-Semitic” questioning of our alliance with Israel gets Lee’s seal of approval. Go figure.
@64
You’re living in a country built on slavery and who’s land was stolen from the natives, whom your ancestors committed genocide against.
Unless you’re willing to move out of the U.S. on principle, your selective outrage comes across more as anti-semitism.
Lee, I seem to have missed your outrage over this massacre:
http://articles.latimes.com/20.....-2010mar09
“Survivors say Christian villagers were trapped in nets and hacked to death by Muslim herdsman in attacks with ethnic and religious overtones. Death estimates vary wildly, from 200 to 500.”
This happened back in March.
While I doubt you posted about this story because you feel it’s not PC to criticize Muslims, if I’m wrong, could you please direct me to your post?
Thanks!
@68
Come to think of it, I don’t remember any world-wide protests over those Muslims rounding-up those 200 Christians in nets and hacking them to death.
@67
Who would have thought? One can go on and on about Lee’s selective outrage. Our drones have killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and not a peep out of him . . .
Seattle Jew says that Joe Kennedy was not a bootlegger. In the sense that JPK was probably not hooching up a batch of gin in his bathtub, that’s true:
But here’s the rest of the story, from Wiki:
How convenient. JPK, while Prohibition was the law, brilliantly anticipated that dry America would soon need the ministrations of Gordon’s and Dewar’s. For medicinal purposes, of course. Sort of like medical marijuana for Kirkland teenyboppers.
FDR and his Democrats made Kennedy’s investment in medicine a winner. Perhaps because “Kennedy threw his personal and financial support behind Franklin D. Roosevelt’s presidential campaign.”
And perhaps because anti-Semite Kennedy and crypto-anti-Semite FDR shared prejudice. (One of those serious histories rhp referred to notes that both Franklin and Eleanor liked to tell Jew jokes.)
But there’s more:
That’s from the Holocaust chronology of 1939, a year after Krystallnacht. Want more? Go here.
I mentioned it, @68. But HA and the rest of BM Big Media couldn’t be bothered. MSM gave the incident a bare, brief 10 seconds, then MovedOn to important news about Bullock and Jesse James.
Troll: Goldy’s New Improved Lee Left is sort of like the Old Left of the 1930s. When Stalin said mean things about Hitler, America’s Stalinist Left (including Jewish immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe) demanded that FDR throw down against Hitler. But when Stalin and Hitler became buddies in September 1939 — with imperialist Stalin munching Finland and eastern Poland — America’s Stalinist Left demanded the strictest nuetrality from America. No Hitler bashing allowed. When FDR later violated our neutrality by sending contraband to England via Lend-Lease — stuff to fight Hitler — our Jewish Left called him a fascist warmonger.
Our New Lee Left now determines its tilt by who’s in charge in Tel Aviv and by who’s in charge in D.C. If it’s conservative Bibi over there, or Ariel Sharon, and when we’ve got a semi-socialist over here who tilts toward Hamas and Hezbollah, then our Jewish Left tilts away from Israel and toward Obama.
Interesting that Obama gave Calderon the keys to our kingdom here a couple weeks ago, but wouldn’t give Bibi the time of day a few months ago. Bibi was supposed to be in D.C. today to settle things, but Obama’s made himself clear: like Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan, BHO seems to hate Israel and, tilting right along, Jewish progressive Goldycrats fall right in line.
(More about selectivity, such as that toward cut up Christians in Nigeria. A decade ago Sudan was the site of anti-Christian genocide: Muslim north killing the Christian/animist south. Remember the outrage? Neither do I. Sudan bubbled up in the news only when it could be cast as a PC drama in which anti-Christian genocide was not part of the story line.)
When I was growing up, my grandfolks were pretty much adamant that Israel
was under constant threat from Arab countries. The terrorism tactics used by the Palestinians were horrible and wrong and just an extension of the Nazi purpose of eliminating Jews from the world. I was raised on this as being just a natural fact.
The aircraft hijackings of the early 70’s, the attack on the Israeli Olympics teams in 1972, the general irrationality of the Palestinian leadership in allowing and encouraging terrorist tactics against the Israeli State were all solid proof of the terrible threats that Israel faced to continue to just exist as a Nation of the world, amongst nations. Some of which I remember seeing for myself on the television morning and evening news, often bracketed by graphically illustrated reports coming out of Vietnam. The breakfast and dinner conversations were often based in what had been on the TV, and what by grandfathers co-workers and peers were saying in the Nuclear industry and Universities in San Diego and Los Angeles.
As I grew up, many of my friends were Jewish, and heard much of the same sort of attitudes from their parents and grandparents, several who had those numbers tattooed on their arms and had severe psychological problems because of their experiences in Poland and Germany when they were kids and young adults during 1930’s and 40’s. They knew what tyranny meant. They had experienced the worst of it firsthand, and were educated enough to illustrate to the young people around them the realities they had experienced, and the realities of what happens when an entire population of people in a country go insane. What happens when the extremists take over the political process, and hijack the real purposes of a nation-state for their own personal reasons and desires for control of an economy and culture.
I find it fascinating, that now, as an adult male in his forties, I am less likely to believe any of the information coming out of Israel, and, being raised on the concepts of tyranny and oppression being wrong, that Israel for me is no longer just fighting for its very survival, but to expand its territory by force of arms, and has seemingly taken its place as one of the more tyrannical states in the world. The purpose of the nation-state of Israel has become the need for Lebensraum, rather than survival and prosperity.
My Jewish friends are not happy at all with what Israel is doing, agree with me (and I with them) that Israel has gone from being a beleaguered nation under constant threat, to a tyrannical one, constantly threatening. That the Nation itself has become what they so carefully propagated against as being the reason for its very existence.
The only people I see supporting Israel unquestionably, and actively demanding the total surrender of Palestinian autonomy and cultural ideology, are the fundamentalist Christians, who saw no problems whatsoever with Israel dropping high explosives and incendiaries into neighborhoods in the West Bank or Gaza or sniping farmers in their fields. They only call it “justice”, and will argue to their last breath that Israel can never be wrong about anything, ever. That Israel needs to continue to exist and expand it’s territory until the Antichrist comes. Because after that, Jesus will come back to destroy the Jewish religion and bring gods divine retribution on all the unbelievers of the world.
My Jewish friends are NOT happy with that idea at all. The fundamentalist Christians disgust them completely.
The tunnels that Hamas operates between Egypt and Gaza seem to be effective in delivering arms — like the rockets that are fired upon Israel by Hamas. I don’t understand why those tunnels can’t deliver construction supplies and all the other stuff that these ships were supposedly delivering. But I guess you need different tunnels for food and 2x4s and they just haven’t dug those yet.
@74
You’re not grasping the scale of the need. The volume of rockets that make it through is tiny compared to the amount of concrete, etc that is required for repairing buildings and maintaining infrastructure.
@73 and has seemingly taken its place as one of the more tyrannical states in the world
Amazing. Your simple thoughts, that is.
What are you doing about this tyranny other than typing about it on HA, frog?
Re 73
I really am conflicted on the whole subject of Israel.
The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance in the original formation of Israel, and in the conduct of the Israeli government, particularly in the past decade.
The Israelis do have a right to defend themselves against terrorists and murderers who would kill women and children in cafes and busses. And they do have a right to run their state as they see fit with regard to internal matters.
Having said that, the far right wackjobs claiming that our support for Israel is a Zionist conspiracy to take over the world are clearly needing psychiatric help. The far left loonies believing that a misguided college student laying in front of a bulldozer is somehow helping the Palestinians are also needing some nice white jackets whose arms tie behind. Also on the left are the folks who believe this is a fundamentalist Christian conspiracy to defend the holy land. More meds, folks. It will help you.
For policy reasons I don’t fully understand goverments ranging from Carters helpless leftist pleasantry to Reagans muscular defense of the country and its’ ideals have defended and supported Israel. They don’t do this as Christians (or as Zotz in his spelling deficiencies says Xtrians) or as right or left wing idealogues. They do this as consistent foreign policy since 1949. Those in a position to know, having been briefed on real information, not press rumors and inuendo, have supported this from whatever side of the aisle they sit. Might ask yourselves why, rather than rant about Zionism or Christianism.
Yikes, my perspective on Israel is close to that of lost. That is frightening.
“Also on the left are the folks who believe this is a fundamentalist Christian conspiracy to defend the holy land. More meds, folks. It will help you”
Are you familiar with the beliefs of Christian Dominionists and Reconstructionists? This is not to say that I believe that what has played out in recent days is in any way the result of some conspiracy of theirs. I’d just like to know how familiar you are with their beliefs.
Uh huh. Talked to one of the survivors after LBJ’s gag order faded away.
Old Left notes: Our strident Stalinist Jewish Left of the 1930s, the Popular Front, demanded war against Germany until the Molotov-Ribbentrop snuggle-bunny pact of 1939.
Then the Popular Front ended, but our Old Stalinist Left suddenly demanded strict neutrality toward Germany.
Lend-Lease shipments to Britain began in March 1941. Our Stalinist Old Left denounced FDR as a fascist warmonger.
Germany invaded the USSR on 22 June 1941. Our Stalinist Old Left immediately did another 180 on a dime, and again demanded war against Hitler.
Sort of makes Deathfrogg’s turn-on-a-dime posturing about Israel’s “tyranny” look like part of a venerable leftist pattern, doesn’t it?
@62 ,,, Lee ..
you said …
Don’t you see this sort of post as corrosive?
Calling the bungled effort by the Israeli navy an atrocity against civilians is corrosive until and unless you have something to offer as an alternative. The intent was certainly not to terrorize the Turks in revenge for Hamas’ actions.
How do remarks like yours support the effort to bring peace? PeaceNow is a ZIONIST organization. Polls have shown it representing the majority ooionion of Isrelis and all Jews.
However, to make peace, one needs partners. Given the intransigence of Hamas, there does not appear to be any option there. One would hope that progressives, nonetheless, would support Israels real needs for security.
What comfort or support would any Israeli fins in your reaction to the Turkish deaths? Many peaceniks in Israel have turned conservative BECAUSE of “Progressives” who give the real progressives of Israel no support and no options.
As for the specifics, the rest of my post and the comment I made at SJ, highlight the central dilemma for the Palestinians. A half century of wars and hate mongering have given what? The Turkish effort offers something very new … a non violent weapon against the oppression.
Did you read the recent speech by MLK III in Israel? He has expressed the hope that within the Palestinian community there are leaders with the courage of a Gandhi or a King.
@64. Zotz spews:
By your reasoning …
America bears no guilt for the last 2000 years of persecution of the Jews.
Americans should not spend “our tax dollars” to fight malaria or contain Iran.
Fortress America may be a lonely place, you piece of shit.
# 54. Lee spews:
so … if a cop is killed in a civil rights demonstration, the cop is not a victim?
Do you suppose that Dr. King did not intend to provoke people who might kill him?
You obviously did not live thorught the civil rights era.
@77 lostinaseablue spews:
good post, except for one thing.
The idea that Israel was created by taking land form “Palestine” is BS. In 48 “Palestine” MEANT ISRAEL. Jordan, not Israel invaded the territory that the uN created AND ANNEXED to be a state for arabs.
The idea of “Palestine” as anything other than a UN conceit did not occur until it was created by Nasser and Arafat.
Sarah and Lee
The real issue here is NOT the tunnels, it is the blockade maintained by Egypt and Israel. As long as Hamas does not bacj down form the declaration of war, the line between what is needed for war and peace is terribly difficult.
The same concrete that we would all like see used to build hospitals and homes, can be used for bunkers.
Peace is a lot better.
@77 I know several Jewish Israeli citizens who vehemently oppose what their government is doing with both Gaza and the West bank. Their numbers are large and increasing, despite the American mainstream press making virtually no mention of them.
They go into Palestine territory, and stand en masse in the way of the bulldozers. Apparently the Israeli army has some concern that running over a couple dozen of its own citizens would make too big a mess. So they stop, bring in more troops and haul them all off to jail for a few hours, and bulldoze the houses. Then, when they get out the protesters come back with bricks and mortar and help the Palestinians build new houses right where the other ones just got bulldozed.
Again and again and again and again and again.
There are basically three factions promoting the United States’ support of Israel, no matter what it does:
(1.) Jews in the US who have a Zionist streak, and enough money to wield some political clout.
(2.) Dominionist “christians” who practically wet their pants over the prospect of mushroom clouds rising over the Middle East, since a cataclysmic war there is one of the events they believe herald the “rapture”.
(3.) Neocon capitalists who believe such a war–in fact, any war, is a wonderful thing because it’s “good for business”.
You’re not the sj I know, you’re a sockpuppet spewing strawmen.
Suck on pork sausage, motherfucker!
@85 “Peace is a lot better.”
No shit, Sherlock!
88 Zotz
sorry man, I am who and what I have always been.
#89 Artfart
OK!
That is a good place to start. But how? How would you deal with the mess in Gaza?
One scenario I like is to contain it, sorry about that, but also do everything one can to build a viable economy in Jordan and in the West Bank.
By viable I mean an economy that does not live off the wages of Palestinian day workers who play the role of cheap labor in Israel.
It seems to me that the cost of creating a viable economy on the WB and in Jordan is a bargain.
BUT, getting there requires progressive willing to call Hamas out. If they want to participate, they .. like the WB Fatah, need to begin by declaring an end to war.
BUT, getting there also means “liberals” need to be tough guys and reject the baby seal tactics of the Hamasniks. Racism ought to be plain ans simply taboo.
One way this might be achieved is by Jordan opening ITS borders to Gazans who want a better life. The realityn of the WB is that it is too small to be viable on its own, muchl less as the home for Gazans and refugees seeking the right of return. If Jordan made such an offer, backed by international funding for those choosing to flee Hamas, I suspect Hamas would fall of its own ugly weight.
@83
Don’t you see this sort of post as corrosive?
No, I see it as accurate, and it’s exactly the same point that Peace Now’s Yariv Oppenheimer is making in this opinion column.
Do you think Peace Now is being “corrosive”? If not, why not? What’s the difference between what he’s saying and what I’m saying?
@91 I’m in full agreement with your last paragraph. Hamas has no redeeming value whatsoever, but it’s hard to believe Israel hasn’t by now fallen pretty far down the moral slope of using Hamas as an excuse for its strongarm tactics.
As to the ordinary Palestinian people caught in the middle…they’ll probably tend to gravitate to whoever’s shooting at them the least.
@83
Calling the bungled effort by the Israeli navy an atrocity against civilians is corrosive until and unless you have something to offer as an alternative.
Peace Now’s statement:
Are you going to openly condemn Peace Now?
– via Melanie Phillips
As our omnipotent and omniscient sj recently wrote, liberal Hamasnik racism ought to be plain and simply taboo.
And ditto that ‘Palestine’ is a conceit confected by Nasser and Arafat. Amen!
@83
How do remarks like yours support the effort to bring peace? PeaceNow is a ZIONIST organization. Polls have shown it representing the majority ooionion of Isrelis and all Jews.
How did the column from Peace Now support peace? This is their conclusion, which I completely agree with:
Do you agree with both me and Peace Now, or do you have a different opinion about what’s needed to achieve peace?
@83
What comfort or support would any Israeli fins in your reaction to the Turkish deaths? Many peaceniks in Israel have turned conservative BECAUSE of “Progressives” who give the real progressives of Israel no support and no options.
Stop pretending that you’re not one of them. You need to find the courage to support what Peace Now still stands for, rather than engaging in blind radicalism. Peace Now understands what the correct path to peace is. You don’t.
More, much more, on the Liberty. Note that the IDF in 1967 was not packing paintguns as they did when meeting the “peace” flotilla.
Let’s do a goldy thought experiment: Suppose that Lee’s posts, up this thread, had been put here by Pat Buchanan or mangledtruth. Think there would have been any insults about anti-Semitism thrown back at them by HA’s liberal Amen Corner?
And what have we come to when almost the only sensible comment here comes from Rabbi Rabbit, @57? When you sift out all the blather from the BBC and Lee and Deathfrogg and Slingshit, the bottom line is stupidity. The stupidity of running a blockade comes close to the stupidity of a little liberal idiot girl laying down in front of a D9.
(Grammar rammer: Our leftist popular front spouted Stalin’s bellicose party line until the very moment that Stalin and Hitler shacked up in 1939.
Spell checker reprise: Roger, despite his myriad faults, spells like a sonofabitch. Although there was a prolonged period when he signed in here as Rpger Rabbit.)
Of course, Israel could have sunk them ships. And should have to send a message to Ayers and the rest of ’em.
Ooops, they did. By NOT sinking them.
To all whom question the legitimacy of the blockade – I’d rent “Thirteen Days”. Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSA7Evcy7iE
Or go to Wikipedia for what Thirteen Days was about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
This Israeli blockade is the Quarantine, the Cuban Missile Crisis of our time. It’s time to STFU and salute Israel for resisting the temptation to blow Gaza/Cuba to hell BEFORE Gaza gets the kind of weapons that’d provoke yet another war.
“Suppose that Lee’s posts, up this thread, had been put there by Pat Buchanan or mangledtruth”
Over 30 years ago I read an editorial in the paper about our “trickle-down” social programs. Spot on, I thought. I cut it out and had it pinned to a bulletin board for a long time. A couple of years ago I was rummaging through some stuff and came across it again. heh- You all can give this ol’ commie-fascist a slap in the face! The author was Pat Buchanan.
I did see the movie a time or two. Koster was a distraction of sorts, but not bad. I read the RFK book back in the late 60’s. Now don’t get going on who actually wrote that book, HNMT. You know, of course, that you hurt me so very deeply when you diss my hero, RFK. -Smiley face insert here-
@100
An anti-Islamic nut who thinks that all Muslims are terrorists will often have the same exact reaction as you or me to a terrorist attack from an individual Muslim. I’ve written enough that no one with half a brain should be confusing me with Pat Buchanan or our resident neo-Nazi commenter. Hell, even SJ might be smart enough to know the difference.
The interesting thing about all this commentary (or most of it) concerning Israel is that it can be likened to liberals’ attitudes toward Bush and his handlers and their prosecution of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which killed plenty of civilians. But the difference is that Israel is a sovereign country and should be blamed for its own mistakes, but many of those commenting are blaming America and America’s Jews and Jews EVERYWHERE — just plain Jews — for Israel’s actions. When the discussion devolves from “Israelis” to “Zionists” to “Jews”, then we’re in racist anti-Semitic territory.
By the way, the term “Zionism” is defined by Merriam-Webster as “an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.” The term was coined in 1896. If any of you Zionist-haters wish to state that you think that Jews should not have a national home where they can’t be subject to programs or further holocausts, and keeping in mind that Muslim Arabs have at least 7 national homes, then say so plainly. Don’t just throw the term around as though it equates to “evil.”
I think I remember that America was founded on somewhat the basis that Israel was: a country where people could be free to be what they were. The difference is that we attempted to outright exterminate all the natives, and we damned near succeeded.
Re 80
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Now…which one of us is the stopped clock?
Re 81
I’m totally unfamiliar with either dominionists or reconstructionists. Most of the Christians I know (and Muslims and Jews and Hindi etc I’d bet), are people trying through the lens of their view of God to create a better world for themselves and their families, sometimes even their communities. Some do it better, some worse. And some go off the rails and move to Guyana to drink Koolaid or a terrorist training camp.
Sarah,
Maybe some commenters are blaming the US, or Jews or Zionists. Some may just want to know why Israel receives the military and ecomic aid it does from the US. Christian ‘fundamentalists’ or Jewish ‘Zionists’ are unlikely to be the reason. Nor capitalists (though I know this is the ultimate expletive for a left leaning thinker.) After all concrete support of the Israeli state has been a constant across time and ideology. There simply isn’t a believable common link to reconcile the various conspiracy theories with the reality. So, the US has decided fairly consistently on what must seem to those making the decisions to be solid ground to support Israel with money, time, weapons and UN backing.
This isn’t anti semitism. It isn’t hating Jewish people. It’s valid questioning about how and why our government behaves.
@106 I don’t believe I’m really promoting a classical conspiracy theory. What some of us are postulating here is the likelihood of the partly self-serving motivations of several groups coinciding to perpetuate a situation that’s yielding increasingly bad results.
Lee
“The Israelis are clearly lying about how much food and medicine they’re letting through – and about the well-being of the Gazans.”
And you know this how?
@83 Lee
Peace Now’s statement:
No. I agree with this. In fact that is close to what I wrote.
The PeacNow message is very different from calling this event terrorism or an atrocity.
people in the midst of a pot-induced stupor commenting about “facts” they know in the middle east…lmfao
thats some classic shit right there..
@104 Lee
“104. Lee spews:
@100 “I’ve written enough that no one with half a brain should be confusing me with Pat Buchanan or our resident neo-Nazi commenter. Hell, even SJ might be smart enough to know the difference.”
Sorry I often have trouble telling you from Buchanan or from the Egg Beaters. You may be on a different side then those bozoes but you share their disregard for facts and affection for scary words.
Back at PeaceNow .. have you joined us? Do you donate to any of the organizations that strive for peace in the middle east?
As the PeaceNow quote says, we can not have peace until “The enemies of peace and the extremists on both sides” can be stopped from finding “reasons to attack each other and deepen the hatred and hostility between Jews and Arabs in Israel and outside of it.”
Whwen I said your remarks are corrosice, rather than progressive, I said this in the same way Peace Now says, “Again the moderates on both sides are silenced and the voice of reason is drowned out by the voices of incitement and hatred.”
Yitzhak Rabin warned of exactly the situation Netnayahu os now mired in. PeaceNow echoes his warning of a “”situation where without peace, Israel and the Jewish people “will all find ourselves in a morally and politically decadent country, slowly sinking into the depths.”
The sad thing about coorives is that in the name of Peace you foster exactly the kind of extremism that prevents peace.
Lee to SJ
For you to call me “radical” is very, very funny.
Don@48
Oops?
Hmmm… Jewish Journal said something interesting…
“Then there’s this discomforting revelation: Israelis became complicit, helping the tainted Arafat launder his skims by arranging Swiss bank accounts. The International Monetary Fund estimates that from 1995 to 2000, Arafat diverted $900 million from Palestinian Authority funds, “an amount that did not include the money that he and his family siphoned off through such secondary means as no-bid contracts, kickbacks and rake-offs,” Samuels reports.”
Hmmm… 60 Minutes…
“The stockpile went well beyond the portfolio. Arafat accumulated another $1 billion with the help of — of all people — the Israelis. Under the Oslo Accords, it was agreed that Israel would collect sales taxes on goods purchased by Palestinians and transfer those funds to the Palestinian treasury. But instead, Indyk says, “that money is transferred to Yasser Arafat to, amongst other places, bank accounts which he maintains off-line in Israel.””
Hmmm… Issam Abu Issa had inside knowledge…
The whole link was full of facts.
So while Puddy has used Haaretz in the past… they missed this story.
Sarah@105,
You said something that perked up Puddy’s eyes. Hot damn… Puddy actually agrees with much of what you wrote. The leftist morons here can’t survive unless they have a strawman of their own creation. In this case it’s calling anyone who thinks differently a zionist, or a fascist or a nazi.
Lee
May I suggest you read this remarkable, pro peace essay by Margartet Attwood. She states my bliefs better than I can.
@114 “In this case it’s calling anyone who thinks differently a zionist, or a fascist or a nazi.”
After calling us commies and fascists for years, you slither in here with that little gem. Hypocrite. You obviously project too much. I hear it’s a Psych 101 thing.
Steve Steve Steve,
Puddy been called every name in the book here on HA Libtardos, from a for ASShole to z for zebra. Still standing Steve Steve Steve. Doesn’t stop Puddy from going to a Drunken Libtardo meeting now and then. Butt, when you have nothing left it’s your standard Psych 101 thing. It’s must be that lower quality argument you can’t seem to elevate and break away from.
Too bad you are a broken record Steve Steve Steve. You are still drinking your Stupid Solution! Is it in latte form or cappuccino now?
You know, Puddy, if you would just quit projecting your shit onto others, I wouldn’t have anything to say to you about projection. But as long as you pull that shit, I’m going to call you on it. And I fully expect you to resort to infantile namecalling as you did here. We all know what you’re trying to say but can’t, which is, “Steve put the KABLAMMO on my stupid ass again and my sorry, piece of shit self doesn’t have a comeback!!”
Steve Steve Steve, Puddy will reiterate since you are having memory issues. Puddy been called every name in the book here on HA Libtardos, from a for ASShole to z for zebra. Too bad you are a broken record Steve Steve Steve. Puddy has given you many of the original HA infantile names Puddy was called back in 2004 waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Puddy started to turn the tables but you know Steve Steve Steve; it seems you have a real memory condition when historical facts are presented Steve Steve Steve. You could ask the arschloch goatsee as the arschloch goatsee called Puddy a few of them when he was For Himself, ummm oops… For The Clueless. Go on Steve Steve Steve, grow some cojones and ask him. He has them all archived and yet you are a continual Psych 101 broken record Steve Steve Steve. Or by asking him it means you are in search of the truth and that means this Psych 101 facade finally drops Steve Steve Steve?
Your move sucka! Are you a man Steve Steve Steve? Care to ask the arschloch goatsee for the original name calling by whom and when it really started Steve Steve Steve?
2004? You have a link for that? What name were you called?
Your first comment as Puddybud was in late April 2005.
Steve,
Here’s an excerpt of junk-shot’s first comment as Puddybud:
http://horsesass.org/?p=604#comment-26600
It looks like to me in his very first comment as Puddybud he called Goldy a coward.
Goldy consulted legal experts and made the right call on the Governor’s election challenge case. I’d say that took guts. Sharkansky and the rest of the unhinged right wing made the fear and innuendo-based case and were proven wrong.
Try again goober arschloch goatsee. Your vaulted database has failed you. Puddy was commenting on the 2004 erection with John Kerry. Try again.
Puddy don’t need to provide you no link, name caller.
While you at it goober arschloch goatsee, give Steve Steve Steve some of the names you called Puddy.
Go on fool!
Puddy bets goober arschloch goatsee is rerunning all his database scripts. Butt you’ll never see his name calling links. He’ll hide them forever.
You see Steve Steve Steve, the goober arschloch goatsee was monitoring this thread all day. Butt because he has nothing useful to add the goober arschloch goatsee was mum. He’s another of those Israel haters. So Steve Steve Steve, since he’s “on the prowl”, ask for some of his original name calling.
Puddy already proved he is chronologically challenged by his “database”.
I see 76 comments with references to Kerry in 2004.
There’s some right wing fool called StinkerInSeattle that might be you but he insults people who went to “Government Schools”.
Both you and you kids did that didn’t they?
He also comments on Gregoire losing black voters. First comment is 12/18. Could be, could be… This guy dribbles on insipidly just like you.
boy, i agree with everything lee said…politics makes strange fucking bedfellows.
and seattle jew..hamas doesnt like israel just becuase they are jews…..ITS BECAUSE THEY STOLE THEIR FFFFFFUCKING LAND…WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT THRU YOUR LIBERAL, ACADEMICIAN THICK SKULL.
Puddy @ 122: “Puddy don’t need to provide you no link, name caller.”
Ah, the irony, the sweet irony, of Puddy calling anyone a “name caller.” You meant that as irony, right, Pud?
@126 MOTruth
Losing your temper is a good sign .. maybe you will fall off the cliff into a chasm of reality .
Hamas hatred of jews goes FAR beyond any idea of Jews strealing land. They are bigots and teach bigotry.
As for the Jews stealing palestine ll What Palestine? Palestine (Phiistia in arabic) has only existed one time in history and that was a crusader state. The nakme is taken from the pre-hebrew coastal peoles, the Phillistines. That culture disappeared easily 3 millenia ago.
Of course for a bubbelah like you, truth nis not important uinless it is candy coated with the sweet taste of hate.
The Puddy Challenge SJ will offer a magic wand to the forst person to parse and make sense of any recent set of three Ruddy droppings.
I take it back .. ther eis more logic in our cat box than in these posts. I guess Puddy has run out of rational things to say?
@128
ok, sj…i won’t lose my temper and ask what i truly believe is a legitimate question. who was living in the land that israel now occupies in 1948? were poeople moved out of that land? who were they and where are they now?
SJ,
What were you trying to say @129 above?
Ol Goatie…
Buttpacker
Puddwhacker
ButtPuddy
Buttman
are just some of the names first used against Puddy, some by the hateful name morphing dishit named For The Clueless now known as the goober arschloch goatsee with his personal home version of the HA database. You see the truth shall set you free Ol Goatee.
If the truth bothers you Ol Goatee may be you should stop reading HA and read some of your previous court pleadings since fantasy is your tour de force.
Since Steve Steve Steve can’t grow a pair, be a man and ask the goober arschloch goatsee for the names the goober arschloch goatsee first called Puddy before Puddy ever returned the favor. Why doesn’t Ol Goatee ask the goober arschloch goatsee for a sample of the date and time he typed those comments?
Let’s see if Ol Goatee will grow a pair since Steve Steve Steve isn’t packing anything south of the waistline.
Still the monomaniacal chronologically challenged goober arschloch goatsee. What will you do if Ol Goatee asks for your original name calling links?
A – Ignore him?
B – Tell him off, saying you don’t do his bidding?
C – Act normal… um… like an arschloch goatsee and change the topic?
D – Actually act a human and give him dates and times?
Puddy chooses A, B & C as the evidence demonstrates that’s the way you are on HA!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Accused of infantile namecalling, what does Puddy do? He lets loose with a string of infantile namecalling. So predictable. So boring.
“isn’t packing anything south of the waistline”
Sometimes wingnut projection reveals more than we ever really wanted to know about them.
junk-shot moron @ 133
I called you NONE of the names you list at 132.
Prove me wrong fool.
AFAICT you’re lying or your memory is damaged about 2004.
Prove me wrong.
By the way, after reading StinkerInSeattle more closely I’m thinking that fool was an old handle of that odious HowCanYouBeProudToBeAnASS. Obviously that right wing nutjob couldn’t risk being exposed as admitting to living in (gasp!) Seattle.
So as best as I can tell you were nowhere to be seen until 2005
The first name I called junk-shot in my FtC days was “puttybrains”..
The ball is in your court now junk-shot.
MOT @128
In 1948, the land now occupied by Israel was occupied by a mixed population of Jews, Druse, Arabs, and smaller minorities. The majority of the population in the area designated as “Israel” by the UN were, even before the invasion from Jordan, Jews.
At that time, there wer NO Arabs who identified themselves as “Palestinians.” Moreover, the invaders (principally Jordan and Egypt) considered the concept of a separate state of Palestine as wrong. Jordan (then TransJordan) ILLEGALLY incorporated the West Bank into its own territory. They also occupied the JEWISH sector of Jerusalem and expelled all the Jews. That sector is now East Jerusalekm . the “Arab” sector.
There was, as you suggest, an exodus of some Arab (remember no Palestinians yet) from Israel’s territory. This was instigated by the Arab states and esp. by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who assumed that the nascent Israel would be destroyed by the Arab invaders. Of course, some Israelis .. like any other nationalist, also encouraged or even force the exodus. However, ALL Arabs who remained in Israel (now 20%) became Israeli citizens. The same option was offered to all Jerusalami after the liberation of Jerusalem by Dayan.
arschloch goatsee,
Ball not in Puddy’s court. Still in yours
Steve Steve Steve,
Too bad your Psych 101 argument has dulled your mental acuity… if you ever had mental acuity!
139 – Yawwwwwnnn.. Still running away from your bullshit, your lies..
and you always will..
Not running away arschloch goatsee… Tired of you fool!
Puddy moves on!
Let’s go over these one by one shall we?
Buttpacker first used by YOU (junk-shot) in thread 14560
Puddwhacker first used by HL in thread 733
ButtPuddy first used by Chimp Patrol in thread 1166
Buttman first used by Chimp Patrol in thread 1163.
So fool if you’re thinking I was Chimp Patrol you are wrong.
You’ve claimed in the past I called you those names and I’ve denied it every time because it’s the truth.
If you have proof to the contrary, let’s see it. But you won’t show it of course because it would be just you making shit up and you know it.
Or maybe you don’t know it because you’re so freaking insane you’re believing your own bullshit and you know I’d just make fun of you for doing that.
And you’d be right.. Heh.. Too funny.
Let God sort ’em out. Stop all aid to Israel/Egypt.
Goldy, wake up, look who your in bed with.
The Turks?
“…While continuing his harsh accusations against Israel over its deadly raid on an aid flotilla, the Turkish prime minister said he does not see Hamas as a terrorist organization, but as a resisting group struggling for its own land.”
Apparently Turks military brass unfortunately lost the battle with the Islamists in civilian government.
Heres what one of your flower power “peace activist” fuck-wits told his family before hoping on the S.S. Jihad…
“I am going to be a shahid; I dreamt I will become a shahid – I saw in a dream that I will be killed.”
Not to mention that when the Israelis radioed the ship the mensa members on board responded with “Shut up. Go back to Auschwitz,” and “We’re helping the Arabs go against the US, don’t forget 9/11 guys”.
Oh and they sang a nice little ditty about a massacre of Jews from the Koran.
Real role models you got there Lee, tried and true peaceniks.