Gov. Howard Dean signing books last night at Seattle's Town Hall
It was hot last night at Seattle’s Town Hall, both literally and figuratively. Outside, advocates of a single-payer healthcare system were chanting and leafleting. Inside, as Gov. Howard Dean spoke about healthcare reform, the crowd was only slightly less boisterous.
Though friendly and receptive as Gov. Dean took the podium, when it came time to take questions from the audience it quickly became apparent that the many of those inside shared the sentiments of those on the street, with some of the questioners filibustering their opportunity at the mic to take an uncompromising stance in favor of single-payer, and opposed to anything less. It was apparently a familiar scene for Gov. Dean, who had just arrived from a similar engagement in Portland, OR, where several single-payer advocates had to be removed from the audience after disrupting the proceedings.
Gov. Dean, a licensed physician and former presidential candidate and DNC Chair, is on tour promoting his new book “Prescription for Real Healthcare Reform,” but for many true believers, Gov. Dean’s prescription—take a public option and call me in a decade—isn’t real enough. What plays out is the sorta classic confrontation between idealism and pragmatism that so often undermines reforms coming from either end of the ideological spectrum, leaving those in the mushy middle so firmly in control. And it’s the kinda confrontation that the insurance industry and big pharma are counting on to stave off reform for another generation.
As Gov. Dean repeated throughout the Q&A, he’d personally prefer a single-payer system, as it’s the only reform that can guarantee universal coverage while quickly providing the level of savings needed to get our healthcare costs under control. But as he also repeated, polling consistently shows that the general public just isn’t there yet, let alone the laggards in Congress, so while single-payer shouldn’t necessarily be taken off the table, it would be unrealistic to expect it to move any further… at this point in time.
And here’s where that confrontation between idealism and pragmatism really comes into play. Public option opponents on the left dismiss the proposal as mere half-measures, while public option opponents on the right attack it as a slippery slope to single-payer. And they’re both right. The question is, will the lack of enthusiasm for the public option from idealists on the left ultimately play into the hands of the pragmatists on the right in their efforts to scuttle any substantive reforms at all?
As I’ve argued before, the public option is a slippery slope to single-payer, if implemented and executed correctly. Now some might characterize this admission as cynical and dishonest, but good policy done right is inherently a slippery slope toward better policy. As it should be. And it’s a slope we slide down only with the approval of a majority of voters.
So after he finished signing books I asked Gov. Dean whether he believed the public option would be a slippery slope to single-payer. I wanted him to say yes, and I sensed that he wanted to say yes as well. But he’s too smart for that… and too pragmatic. Instead, he enunciated what I think is the most rhetorically effective response I’ve ever heard to the right’s slippery slope argument, a response that totally undermines their objection, even without denying it:
[audio:http://horsesass.org/wp-content/uploads/dean.mp3]This will be the change that the American people want at the pace that they want it. So the opponents have no right to make that argument. The Republican ability to make that argument assumes that they know better than the American people, that they’re so smart that the American people have no right to make up their own mind.
That’s what this bill is about. This bill is not about whether to have a single-payer or a public option or a private system; this bill is about whether the American people get to choose for themselves, or whether congressmen take it upon themselves to override the will of the American people and do something different. It’s a straight up vote between whether you’re in favor of the health insurance industry, or whether you’re in favor of your constituency. Everybody’s going to have to make that vote, and we’ll be watching.
The same could be said to the uncompromising advocates of a single-payer system.
I may not live to see the bottom, but I still believe that the public option will ultimately set us down that slippery slope to single-payer, and my sense is that many of its proponents believe the same, whether for pragmatic reasons, they’re willing to publicly say so or not. If given the choice, many Americans will flock to the public option, and if private insurers simply aren’t able to compete, I’m alright with that. It is ironic, after all, that those who insist there is no fundamental right to basic health care, also tend to be those who insist that there is a fundamental right to selling private health insurance.
Of course, there isn’t. And if the single-payer advocates can be as patient as they are passionate, I’m confident the American people will ultimately prove them right.
Slippery slope scenarios are at the heart of many wingnut arguments. Remember the “domino theory”? How’d that work out? Sometimes the slope is indeed sticky, and the pressure for national health should be redoubled.
More for wingnuts from ‘Sadly No!”:
Circulatory disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 219
United States: 265
Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 0.7
United States: 2.2
Digestive disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 17.4
United States: 20.5
Infant mortality rate per 1,000 live births
Canada: 5.08
United States: 6.3
Intestinal diseases death rate
Canada: 0.3%
United States: 7.3%
Proability of not reaching age 60:
Canada: 9.5%
United States: 12.8%
Respiratory disease child death rate per 100,000
Canada: 0.62
United States: 40.43
Heart disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 94.9
United States: 106.5
HIV deaths per million people:
Canada: 47.423
United States: 48.141
Read it and weep………..
It’s strange how the public can give any credence to the present system run by the insurance industry. It hasn’t contained costs and leaves many uncovered or undercovered.
Health care should be a public right, not just another commodity for the free enterprise approach to assign a dollar value to for the sake of profits and sell to those who can afford it.
People should urge Congress to adopt a public option. It doesn’t force anyone to take the public option and would have to compete with the private options.
As Dean said, we already have public options with Medicaid and Veteran’s Administration Health Care and Congress members.
Steve, who is the public?
All we hear is 47-48,000,000 uninsured. Fact Check.Org looked at it and it seems the number may be 30,000,000 tops. Fact Check only estimates 6 million illegals. Census estimated through DHS 11.7 million. Here is where Puddy get’s his 12,000,000 WikiPedia says 11,000,000. Ya first have to take that number away from 48,000,000 and you get 37,000,000. Next how many choose not to get insurance. Then you have 12,000,000 per FactCheck who are eligible for Medicaid which already exists. So 37,000,000 – 12,000,000 is 25,000,000. Then you take away those who choose not to purchase it but can. Let’s say 5,000,000
So why do Dummocrapts continue with their rant? Bigga is betta!
Lie after lie after lie!
Well lookee here. A former insurance executive makes a little trip to a health care “fair” at a county fairgrounds.
No problem with the status quo – none at all. Nothing to see here. No need to do anything like what the idiot tool @ 3 is implying.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/jour.....ript2.html
Here’s a little something from 2005!
During the reign of the chimp. While he was trying to swindle the public on Social Security, people were DYING from the status quo.
http://nationalacademies.org/h.....50920.html
The article also mentions that the rolls of the uninsured swelled by 6 million from 2000-2005. But all the tool @ 3 can bleat is ‘illegal’, ‘illegal’!
Keep bleating idiot. Hispanics turned overwhelming to Obama last election because of your crowd’s bigotry. They need health care too.
Oh and thank you for contributing to the progressive cause. You’re doing fine work.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH.....mic.obama/
The number of uninsured has been increasing as the economy has hit the skids. Without the pasage of S-chip (that the republicans opposed) the numbers would have been even worse.
The latest estimate over two years is 86.7 million americans.
Oh and Puddy – show your links, so I can destroy your pathetic try at facts, as usual.
Just like I destroyed you on Global warming – where you cited sources that were wrong or did not support your view – or how Darryl kicked your sorry butt the other day … and showed your “facts” to be full of bombast and holes.
Again from Bill Moyers:
Now this is a former Insurance Executive talking. Describing exactly the PROGRAMMING that has been drilled into right wing tools like the Pooper and the idiot @ 3.
Turdball NutsTooTight, Puddy showed his links for the illegals stupido! They are right there fool! If you can’t find the FactCheck link too bad fool.
Well you are a fool so here is the Fact Check link http://www.factcheck.org/polit.....sured.html
Why is it NutsTooTight can’t figger out stuff?
Why is it NutsTooTight needs to be hand held?
Why is it NutsTuuTight calls anything other than his “facts” anecdotal stories?
Why is it NutsTooTight is a fool?
Why is it NutsTooTight just plain stupid?
You know I have a fun idea for the right wing idiots and defenders of the status quo around here.
At the next tea party organize a boycott of Canadian oil and gas. I mean think of it.. All that money is flowing up there to support a health care system that Canadians would supposedly trade in a flat second for OUR “gold-plated” system.
C’mon right wing fools – do a little more walking and turn down the thermostat for the poor suffering people of Canada so they can have OUR health care!
WE live in a screwed up world. Democrats are in fear of the electorate;; somehow they think they can’t inform them of the facts, that our system produces worse outcomes for higher costs — if you’re insured — and disaster if you’re not insured, which most of us turn out to not be even if insured.
Meanwhile there are about 25 nations with some kind of strong single payer system with lower costs and very happy customers.
The excuse that the American people don’t buy it yet is lame, because it’s Democrats job to inform them. You can’t do that by giving in. You can’t do that by implicitly accepting the notion the insurance industry is making an honest, or valuable, profit. They’re not.
You can’t do that if you are afraid to just come out and say the truth:
-denying care to anyone is immoral AND inefficient
–the insurance companies and their buddies are lying scum
–single payer works nearly everywhere;
–yes, there will be rationing, and there already is; but it’s like the rationing we have at the DMV where you wait in line and you can’t jump ahead by paying more; or the rationing in ww2; in other words, it works. And the rationing we have now is (a) you’re not covered unless rich or employed, (b) even when covered you’re not and you can go bankrupt, and (c) you have to fight the insurer every step of the way.
It’s the same deal as with AIG and the financial industry. Profits are built on unabsorbed risk….the whole hting is a scam…it doesn’t work….it’s not a “Free market”…and a governmental control system is proven to work better.
How are are we going to convince Americans to get their minds into single payer under this slippero slope theory anyway?
Is thenotion that by enacting a public option/”compeition” model, the whole thing really won’t work, then the public will realize “holy shit! When those Democrats passed this piece of shit ten years ago, they were really just doing it to get to single payer, now that it doesn’t work, I totally trust them to get to single payer” or will the public think”wow, last time we tried reform the government made a mess of it, I just don’t believ egovernment intervention works in anyway.”
There’s something so fundamentally dishonest about the slippery slope argument I can’t believe it.
“Let’s enact something we KNOW won’t work, because it will lead to something that will” is a scam folks.
And be honest. It’s not smart and it’s not strategi — it’s just fucking chickenshit cowardice to have the fight we need to have.
Dammit, France is run by conservatives and their system is waaaaaaay to the left of this public option crap.
Our Democratic party leaders can’t be as left as the conservatives in France, that just is not explainable other than thru cowardice and the most lazy, flabby thinking, like the notion you build up credit with the voters by passing something you don’t really want and that won’t really work.
If walmart wasn’t considered an evil corporation by left-wingers I’m sure this would be the start of a trend. Of course, these clinics only help poor people since rich white liberal neighborhoods won’t allow walmart in their neighborhoods.
Clinics at Walmart
Independent health clinics are now offering healthcare services to our customers in select Walmart stores nationwide. These clinics provide one-stop convenience for many basic healthcare needs at affordable prices.
Clinic Services
All clinics offer essential preventative and routine health services for a standard set of common health aliments and screening needs that can be performed without urgent or emergency care, including:
• Acne
• Bladder infections
• Blood sugar testing
• Camp and school physicals
• Cholesterol screening
• Common vaccinations
• Ear aches
• Flu
• Insect bites and stings
• Minor wounds
• Sinus infections
• Upper respiratory infections
• Wart removal
Please contact the clinic nearest you for more information about their services and fees.
Clinic Convenience
Here are a few ways clinics save you time and money:
No appointment is necessary to visit the clinics
Clinics are open seven days a week. View clinic locations and hours.
Patient data is electronic, which means limited time spent filling out forms and follow-up visits are quick and convenient
All prices are posted clearly, so you always know the cost before treatment
An average Get Well visit costs $65 or less. For additional pricing information, contact the clinic nearest you.
If not illegal immigrants, how do you account for the increase?
11 – Wow brilliant – the right wing idiot’s solution to health care is Wal-Mart. Just lower prices.
No need to for health care “fairs” mentioned above. I guess there must have been a liberal conspiracy that spread the word about the fair so people could drive from three different states to get health care.
Must be a lack of Wal-marts in those parts!
And obviously the following was totally uneccessary:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3.....otostream/
Health care delivered in a high school gym. Guess it beats the animal stalls and gurneys in the rain that was reported in comment 4. The status quo at work.
12 – Uhh. A little thing called people losing their jobs, losing their insurance. Small businesses dropping coverage for their employees because of skyrocketing premiums..
You know stuff like that…
Like I said, keep disparaging undocumented hispanic workers – it worked just great to push Latinos to vote for Republicans like McSame.
Brilliant. Read the whole thing.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....-President
I thought that’s what you wanted, to lower the cost of health care.
Not every health issue requires a doctor, yet, that is how the current system is set up. And then the doctor usually sends the nurse in to perform the minor procedure.
Which procedure would you not feel safe letting a nurse diagnose/perform.
• Acne
• Bladder infections
• Blood sugar testing
• Camp and school physicals
• Cholesterol screening
• Common vaccinations
• Ear aches
• Flu
• Insect bites and stings
• Minor wounds
• Sinus infections
• Upper respiratory infections
• Wart removal
If you are in an accident, does a doctor show up or a far less trained and qualified EMT. Same idea, let someone triage the patient before the money is spent on a higher cost doctor.
No need to read it. Since it’s daily kos I know what is says.
bush is hitler
republicans are evil
corporations are evil
bush ruined the health system
Translated that means let’s change the system so everyone can have the same healthcare that veterans and native american indians have to suffer with.
Have you ever explained why the health of indians is so piss poor considering they get that free government healthcare.
Did Dean say anthing about allowing more midwives into the system? Probably not.
In some European nation midwives deliver about 70% of newborns with better survival rates, fewer complications, and at lower costs than MDs do.
Here in Washington midwives deliver about 10%. Course America tried to outlaw midwives.
SO what next more of the same only run by the government?
LIES. Smarmy liar!
Bush is not Hitler. Never needed to be. Being the worst president ever was all he was capable of being.
Republican are evil? Some maybe. Incompetent surely. Corrupt. Many most surely. Out of step with the mainstream of this country? Abso-freaking-lutely! Who won the White House, House, Senate, majority of governorships and state legislatures last Nov? – not the Republicans!
Corporations are evil – not necessarily. They’re set up for one reason – profit. It’s up the rest of us to make sure they don’t profit at the expense of the environment, worker health and safety and don’t exert so much monopoly power that they exact monopoly rents – otherwise they’re welcome to all the money they can make.
Bush ruined the health system – he didn’t care about the health system. All he cared about was power. What was medicare Part D if only a hapless attempt to buy senior votes and/or enrich drug companies.
More smarmy lies…
Have you ever explained why the Canadians, Euros and Japanese are so eager to trade their system for ours?
I’d love to go to things like this, but I didn’t even know Dean was in town. Is there a way to be plugged in so I can know when Seattle is being visited by political figures???
“No need to read it. Since it’s daily kos I know what is says.”
Ah…such intellectualism. Such thirst for knowledge. Such fairness, Marvin! But I know what wingnut douchebags will say:
we have the greatest healthcare system in the world.
Democrats are socialists.
We can’t afford it.
tort “reform”
So by your reasoning, that makes us even.
You really are a fucking lying douchebag.
“No need to read it. Since it’s daily kos I know what is says.”
Ah…such intellectualism. Such thirst for knowledge. Such fairness, Marvin! But I know what wingnut douchebags will say:
we have the greatest healthcare system in the world.
Democrats are socialists.
We can’t afford it.
tort “reform”
So by your reasoning, that makes us even.
And Marvin, Indians have poor health outcomes, not care. The casuality may be complex, you know, something to do with their status, their poverty, etc., but for fuckwads like you, there is no need to actually find out why as long as you can score political points.
You really are a fucking lying douchebag.
“Have you ever explained why the Canadians, Euros and Japanese are so eager to trade their system for ours?”
A mystery wrapped in an enigma. Obviously other western democracies are not really democracies, or they would flock to adopt our incredibly successful system. This can easily be explained if you join the wingnuts and adopt the following believe system:
The earth is only 6,000 years old.
On top of that, is flat.
The Illuminati or the Masons really run things.
The Jewish banker conspiracy REALLY runs things.
Israel is the foretelling of Armagedden, and thus the jewish state should be supported to the last drop of American blood.
The Tri-lateral Commission runs things.
Obama was born in Kenya.
Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance will get you into heaven.
How many of your family have traveled out of the country for healthcare?
How many americans leave the country for their health care.
I’ll start you out with farah fawcett. Name some more?
Say, what country did ted kennedy go to for his brain cancer treatments?
Why won’t you answer my question?
What are you scared of?
Early findings show that tribal citizens’ access to health services significantly improves when health care on American Indian nations is managed by the tribes and not the federal government.
What??? Better service when managed by the tribe and not the federal government. Oh yeah, those native americans must be birthers.
Government hasn’t managed care well
Five examples stand out:
•The American Indian Health System predates Congress. The United States made its first agreement to provide free health care to Indians in 1787.
Spending per capita is roughly $2,000 per year – or about 75 percent of what the government spends per capita on the health of federal prisoners, but the service is the subject of perennial complaints. Indian health officials said last month that they receive about 54 cents for every dollar they need.
•President Hoover and Congress created the Veterans Administration in 1930. Over the years, its hospitals have prompted repeated criticism.
VA health care costs are expected to rise by 89 percent by 2025, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
•In 1965, President Johnson and Congress created Medicare to cover the medical expenses of people 65 and older. “Medicare was supposed to cost $3.1 billion a year. Today, it costs $455 billion a year and is headed for bankruptcy,” wrote Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.,
a doctor.
•Johnson and Congress also created Medicaid, which covers the poor and some disabled people. But despite the fact that its reimbursement rates for services rendered are below those of private insurers, it has become a budget-buster for the 50 states.
“Medicaid has shown that access to a govern-ment program is not access to health care. Today, 40 percent of doctors refuse to see Medicaid patients because of a corrupt and broken payment system,” Coburn wrote.
•President Clinton and Congress created the State Children’s Health Insurance Program to help families that were ineligible for Medicaid provide health insurance for their children. The program now covers 10 million children and adults. Its costs have risen sharply – from $921 million in 1999 to $10 billion in 2008.
5 programs that haven’t worked out like promised.
Is your family worth the chance this time the federal government does what it says. (that’s a shot at both reps/dems)
Marvin dolt sez: “I’ll start you out with farah fawcett. Name some more?”
Steve McQueen. God. You are dumb.
Sighhh …
Goldy (and Dean) are correct. A pubic option is the ONLY possible choice.
Single payer may be the final result, but the costs of rebuilding our current system into a single payer would be astronomic and the administrative challenges worse than taking on a world war.
The problem is not just the source of money. A single payer system implies uniform services and benefits. Our current system is So divers that implimenting such a sensible goal would be a nightmare.
Look at Seattle. We have at least five different models for support of major health care institutions:
Swedish .. Entrepreneurial, profit making, no research, no public service efforts. Docs are paid fee for service.
King County … Harborview is almost 100% government medicine PLUS a major commitment to trauma, public service, and research. Docs are paid salaries. Major residency program and medical school.
UW … UW medicine mixes private and government medicine PLUS a major commitment to public service, and world class research. Provides regional expertise i9n many areas, national in others. Docs are paid salaries with health care subsidized from UW research budgets. Major residency program and medical school.
UW Hutch/Cancer Care Alliance Mush like UW Medicine but provide a unique resource for transplantation and cancer for the world.
Childrens In some ways like Swedish but HUGELY successful. Essentially Children is the pedsiatric hospital for an area stretching from the North Slope to Utah. Docs mix salary model with fee for service.
VA Single payer, Government medicine for a selected communioty of aging males. Docs all salaried.
Group Health The only true HMO model in the city, emphasis on preventative medicine, extensive use of PAs, docs on salary.
Other areas of the country add more diversity, esp. care for profit centers, religious hospitals, concierge medici9ne (starting in Seattle now), ….
Of course I am leaving out all the for profit “centers” for Lasix, Optometrists, Natural medicine, health scans, etc.
All of this comes BEFORE the bizarrely different standard of the different entities that pay for services. Healthcare benefits in our current system range all over the spectrum. Does your policy cover naturopathy? chiropractic? diabetes counseling?, transplants????
The virtue of a a public option is that it provides a benhchmark that can be used to rationalize this mess. For example the oubloic option, like Medicare, is likley to cover so many people that all of the above entities will need to choose to accept its fees. This could mean,m for example, that vets will be able to chopose whether to be served at VA or Swedish. If Swedish were to refuse this it could become uncompetitive. In contrast, Group Health has been dieing a slow death under our current system.It is not hard to imagine GH being a very good vendor for Goverment Medicine.
There are many other examples. Currently the UW and King Co (plus Childrens) bear most of the burden of resident and medical school training. It might make sense for vendors seeking GovMed fees to be required to be involved i residency and med programs ass is common in other countries.
Employers would also be affected hugely. Imagine a union negotiation needing to choose between Beoing funding healthcare or just paying for GovMed. If GivMed is good, I would expect Unions to choose other benefits and get this healthcare albatross off of the Corporate neck.
Bottom line, GovMed as an option is a tool. We are going to get thuis tool simply because there is no other viable option. BUT .. there are many issues in howe this option will work:
1. Will GovMed be subsidized, as Medicare is now, by an indirect taxon other plans?
2. Will GovMed be comprehensive. OPlans elsewhere .. England and even Oregon are not.
3. Will GovMed cover fee for service and capiattion models. Massachusetts looks like ti si dropping fee for service.
4. Will GiveMed replace other gov funded care systems .. VA, Indian Health, Military?
5. Will GovMed cover elective procedures (eg Michael Jackson transformations)?
6. What effect will GovMed have on profitable systems like Swedish?
LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. (Thomas Paine)
We have the 37th worst quality of healthcare in the developed world. Conservative estimates are that over 120,000 of you dies each year in America from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don’t die from. Rich, middle class, and poor a like. Insured and uninsured. Men, women, children, and babies. This is what being 37th in quality of healthcare means.
I know that many of you are angry and frustrated that REPUBLICANS! In congress are dragging their feet and trying to block TRUE healthcare reform. What republicans want is just a taxpayer bailout of the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance industry, and the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare industry. A trillion dollar taxpayer funded private health insurance bailout is all you really get without a robust government-run public option available on day one.
YOU CANT HAVE AN INSURANCE MANDATE WITHOUT A ROBUST PUBLIC OPTION. MANDATEING PRIVATE FOR PROFIT HEALTH INSURANCE AS YOUR ONLY CHOICE WOULD BE UNETHICAL, CORRUPT, AND MORALLY REPUGNANT. AND PROBABLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL AS WELL.
These industries have been slaughtering you and your loved ones like cattle for decades for profit. Including members of congress and their families. These REPUBLICANS are FOOLS!
Republicans and their traitorous allies have been trying to make it look like it’s President Obama’s fault for the delays, and foot dragging. But I think you all know better than that. President Obama inherited one of the worst government catastrophes in American history from these REPUBLICANS! And President Obama has done a brilliant job of turning things around, and working his heart out for all of us.
But Republicans think you are just a bunch of stupid, idiot, cash cows with short memories. Just like they did under the Bush administration when they helped Bush and Cheney rape America and the rest of the World.
But you don’t have to put up with that. And this is what you can do. The Republicans below will be up for reelection on November 2, 2010. Just a little over 13 months from now. And many of you will be able to vote early. So pick some names and tell their voters that their representatives (by name) are obstructing TRUE healthcare reform. And are sellouts to the insurance and medical lobbyist.
Ask them to contact their representatives and tell them that they are going to work to throw them out of office on November 2, 2010, if not before by impeachment, or recall elections. Doing this will give you something more to do to make things better in America. And it will help you feel better too.
There are many resources on the internet that can help you find people to call and contact. For example, many social networking sites can be searched by state, city, or University. Be inventive and creative. I can think of many ways to do this. But be nice. These are your neighbors. And most will want to help.
I know there are a few democrats that have been trying to obstruct TRUE healthcare reform too. But the main problem is the Bush Republicans. Removing them is the best thing tactically to do. On the other hand. If you can easily replace a democrat obstructionist with a supportive democrat, DO IT!
You have been AMAZING!!! my people. Don’t loose heart. You knew it wasn’t going to be easy saving the World. :-)
God Bless You
jacksmith — Working Class
Republican Senators up for re-election in 2010.
* Richard Shelby of Alabama
* Lisa Murkowski of Alaska
* John McCain of Arizona
* Mel Martinez of Florida
* Johnny Isakson of Georgia
* Mike Crapo of Idaho
* Chuck Grassley of Iowa
* Sam Brownback of Kansas
* Jim Bunning of Kentucky
* David Vitter of Louisiana
* Kit Bond of Missouri
* Judd Gregg of New Hampshire
* Richard Burr of North Carolina
* George Voinovich of Ohio
* Tom Coburn of Oklahoma
* Jim DeMint of South Carolina
* John Thune of South Dakota
* Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas
* Bob Bennett of Utah
@8: thanks for proving what a moron you are:
Still no links to your uninsured numbers – you know, the numbers you claimed here:
If I know you and your links, that was from the early 19th century. I put my links in – you have…..nothing as usual.
Again, the 47 million is probably an underestimate and if we take into account the government programs – than 1 out of every three adults not on medicare is uninsured.
That is a pathetic record of ineffeiciency and downright cruelty that you(and your supposedly Christian right wingnut republican asshats) are defending.
Just to set the record straight.
Not a damn thing. There was a good answer @ 22.
Now answer my question. What are you afraid of?
Puddy placed the link for NutsTooTight and he disappeared.
Puddy guesses FactCheck kicked him where the NutsTooTight!
clueless wondermoron@everywhere…
Puddy has said the system needs modification. Look at all the Puddyisms you’ve collected in your “search” fool. Puddy has also said “the messiah’s” proposed system ain’t the fix. Just cuz yous unemployed and wanna git sumtin for free ain’t gonna be paid by Puddy and others fool!
Gee Stupes I think the family and I will make a point of having a picnic at a Park in Everett. Imagine that – my family enjoying an Everett recreation facility on your property tax dime.
Or maybe we’ll just spend some time at St Edwards Park (it’s closer to home) and think of you as we recreate on your sales tax dime. Or just think of all the goods and services you buy in this state whose B&O taxes are passed on to you that go to pay “librul” teachers salaries in Seattle who then teach my kids to make only MORE little “libruls”.
I’ll bet that state of things really burns your silly ass!
If some right wing idiot asks us if we’re residents of Everett. I’ll say shit no we’re here on Stupes’ dumbass selfish dime!
NutsTooTight farted
Oh yeah sure you did.
When did I say I wanted anything from your stupid ass?
Be a tax protester or some stupid shit – take it up at the next feckless tea party – you know the one where your compassionate conservative crowd will boycott Canadian oil and gas to starve money from that evil Marxist socialist health care system they have up there.
I means Stupes it’s a great idea. According to idiots like you Canada will trade their system for ours in heartbeat – with your modifications of course.
I mean think of it Stupes – everytime you park your ass in your SUV for a spin to the right wing meetup or turn up the thermostat you are FUNDING SOCIALISM in CANADA…
‘
How can you live with that???
clueless wondermoron, you can cum and visit Everett, Marsyville, Snohomish, Mill Creek, Lynnwood, Edmonds, Mount Lake Terrace, Brier, Monroe, Arlington, etc. all you want fool. Puddy paid B&O taxes when Puddy had his bidness.
Everyone here knows you are a monomaniacal chronological clueless wondermoron. When you cum to Snohomish county be sure to wear the I’m a clueless wondermoron billboard placard front and back.
Yep, Puddy will sing the Tea Party song written by a conservative black man.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
37 – I go incognito when wandering where unhinged right wing fools dwell – for mine and my family’s protection.
When a fool like you starts dribbling about what he heard on Rush I’ll just nod and say yeah I hear that guy once in a while on the radio – he’s a funny kind of drug addict isn’t he?
When you dribble about Sean’s Insanity I say yeah he’s so funny but kind of depressed since Obama won.
And then you dribble about the “messiah”? Uh you mean Jesus? Never been much of a church goer but I agree that religion CAN be a positive addition to one’s life…
Then my wife who is ever the astute observer of right wing idiocy will step in and say, we gotta go husband. Then I says nice talking to you. Have a nice day! Keep on listenin’ to that Limpblow.. uh Rush!
Public Notice
Roger Rabbit has returned from his lettuce-finding … er, fact-finding … expedition and will resume putting wingnuts in their place, which is in a toilet bowl with the lid shut and pushing on the flusher handle.
40 – Welcome back Roger. Maybe you can share with us what you do when encountering right wing idiots in your travels.
clueless wondermoron is at it again. He complains when someone has info heard on Rush or Sean, but excuses himself when he runs to Daily Kurse, Turdy Pointed Mush or Huffed Po.
The black man Puddy found on YouTube who wrote the Tea Party Anthem wasn’t from Rush or Sean fool.
You are as stupid a leftwing moron as they cum and that’s saying sumtin!
I am far more concerned about the huge cost of healthcare than I am about the quality of care here.
These numbers are really not very informative for several reasons, including the huge effect nutrition, vaccination, welfare, drugs, the car culture, have on children in this country.
In part we pay more because we subsidize R&D used around the world. Almost every major new technology and drug in my life time has been commercialized in the USA.
The other cost issue is that we pay for things in nutty ways. We use ERs @ $1000/hrf where other countries offer walk in clinics at night and weekends. We may have the best ERs in the world but treating an ear ache with an F22 makes littl4e sense. We offer “free” care to the indigent but hide the costs of that care in our insurance bills. We incentivize physicians to do procedures rather than care for patients after putting them into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to become physicians.
Our family structures no longer provide for care givers for the elderly.
Finally we have developed a myth that “preventative medicine” will save money. That is utterly wrong, at least for adults. We all get sick and die. The total care we need to get to that point is increased by extending life. The equation is an easy, if scary one:
A GovMed option is essential simply because we need a tool to reshape this messed up system. With GovMed in place many sensible things can be done:
1. Offer scholarships in return for physicians entering a national health service.
2. GovMed can be limited to providers willing to accept capitation (pay per patient rather than per procedure). This would limit choice to providers willing to be paid in this way, but private companies would be free to fund those who want to use higher priced docs to do their breast enlargments.
3. GovMed can increase expenditures on development of drugs that save money as opposed to drugs that optimize the bottom line. There are classes of pharmaceuticals NOT being developed today because their is no economic model for their development.
4. Rather than the US subsidizing Canada and Europe, we could develop common research targets as in 3 that would benefit everyone. Imagine European/Chinese/American drug firms competing to develop the best and cheapest generics! BTW, cheap labor is largely useless in drug manufacturing. Drug manufacturing is largely a matgter of high tech. Why shouldn’t the US be THE place to make cheap drugs?
The coolest thing about GovMed, as opposed to a single payer system, is that the insurance companies would be free to compete ON PRICE and SERVICES. I suspect many would pay an additional fee for being able, as one example, to have their lung cancer treated by prayer or by the surgeon who looks like Brad Pitt or even to be able to have an elective procedure (eg nose jobs) done sooner. Nothing wrong with capitalism IF there is competition.
Hey PUDDY,
Your fur is wet!
Chime in man … you of all folks must have druthers when it comes to health care!
@41 I floor the gas pedal and aim for their midsection.*
* Just kidding! Glenn Beck eliminationist joke! ha ha ha!!!
Lemee guess – Crispus Attucks!
Enjoy your feckless braindead tea-party fool. Like I could care about such a gathering of teabagging tools.
How To Tell If You Got Bad Weed
Give some to a Republican, and if he’s still a Republican after smoking it, it’s oregano.
Roger Rabbit
Maybe you and Puddy should start a blog? I suggest the name “Animal Farm.”
Single payer is the solution — and everyone knows it.
Who’s making the argument that the insurance companies are against single-payer ’cause it’s bad for the patient?
No one. It would be considered juvenile to even harbor such a ridiculous thought.
This is a waste of time.
tell me the worst thing that ever happend to you – mine is i ate pork it has worms eww
@35: Poor widdle puddy – for za big fella you sure have a big ego and little brains.
You are just to stupid to realize you have been crushed.
Hahaha – Darryl and I are laughing at how easy it is to crush you.
The facts have a way of destroying the republican memes that have no basis in reality. Your sorry little citations from right wingnut sites actually contradict what you say or are just plain wrong.
Just like those “scientists” who either never said they did not believe global warming or were not actually real scientists in the field.
Debunked.
or like the right wing crap you cited on the Lancet paper on deaths in Iraq – it showed that you don’t even know the meaning of the term “peer review”, as used in scientific papers.
You are out of your league on science related matters and you show your woeful ignorance by quoting from unreliable right wingnut sources (I caught you on that a number of times).
Yet you refuse to accept standard sources….what a hypocrite and intellectual charlatan.
You evade, twist and run from the facts. Maybe you are aware of how pathetic you are or maybe you just don’t care. The rest of us are laughing at you.
@43:
While I agree with some of what SJ says, Seattle Jew wrote this truly stupid thing:
Hey, every single study says that preventative medicine saves money….do you not pay attention?
Which is more cost effective:
vaccinations or disease?
good diet and exercise plan or years on diabetes/heart/blood pressure meds?
preventative screeenings for cancer or late term treatments for a cancer that could have been surgically removed but is now metastatic and requires expensive hospitalization?
Pap smear or ovarian cancer?
yes, we all will get older and die – but there is a big difference in care costs (Alzheimer’s alone can be delayed and prevented by good nutrition and exercise).
Prevention works – period.
It saves money and allows people to remain healthy in mind and body for longer periods.
Our health care system should be based on prevention and encouraging healthy lifestyles. Most of the processed food we eat and the lack of exercise this society gets is just plain poison and a prescription for chronic disease.
According to factcheck.org – a link Puddy still did not give, I got this:
oops – Puddy is once again wrong, false and full of it.
Gee, am I suprised?
30 million…..the lowest possible estimate for over two years ago counting only those who did not have insurnace for the entire year.
An invalid number, out of date now and surely way too low.
Thanks Puddy for the entertainment. You are debunked once again.
GREAT POST
Another example of government healthcare.
Daily News investigates faked records and fatal blunders at city-run hospitals
…
•A stroke victim’s leg had to be amputated after gangrene was left untreated. No report.
•An ill infant died after sitting, unexamined by a doctor in an ER for 24 hours. Confronted for not having enough doctors on duty, they produce a “corrected” report saying there was – a month after the fact.
•A mental patient hanged himself and, after several days, died. Though hospitals must report suicides, they report this one as an “unexpected death.”
•Records were altered after medical students made mistakes and an infant died.
•Logs for a respirator were changed after staff failed to notice it wasn’t turned on. The patient died.
Remember that video of the woman left to die on the floor, that wasn’t a privately run hospital. That was government healthcare.
Is that the healthcare you want for your family?
55 – Tell me with a straight face that those kind of things don’t happen at privately run hospitals and clinics
Gee why isn’t Japan, Canada and Europe protesting in the streets for “free-market” (greed-based) health care?
The question you’re afraid to answer..
I think you should push for a boycott of Canadian oil and gas at the next “tea party” you attend. A compassionate conservative like yourself should not send money to a country where its used to fund such an evil “marxist” health care system (in your puny mind). Think of it – every time you hop in your car you’re funding socialism. We import more oil and gas from Canada than from any other country.
Since good diet and exercise saves money (which I agree 100%), do you believe the government should allow people to make bad health choices like fast food, smoking, drinking, unprotected sex, risky behavior (skydiving, etc) which drive up the cost of healthcare? How much of a burden to the healthcare industry is from those that are fat, smokers, drinkers?
Type 1 diabetes accounts for 5-10% of all cases of diabetes. Which means the other 90-95% could be prevented by “prevention.” How do you believe that prevention can be enforced?
Native american indians have that free government healthcare, how’s it working out for them?
American Indian/ Alaska Natives are almost 3 times as likely to have diabetes as non-Hispanic whites
And let’s not talk about how the government healthcare has prevented alcoholism in the native american population.
I could take cheap shots that the democrats don’t care about non-whites that don’t vote for them, instead, I’m going to point out the government is not able to do everything people need or want.
The dangers of smoking have been known for decades, didn’t obama get the message?
Since obesity is the cause of many health problems and medical costs, what can the government do to prevent people from getting fat?
I thought government could do better than the private sector.
Gee Marvin, you’re it right, it hasn’t – but greed-based health care hasn’t prevented it anywhere else either!
Jump Marvin Jump!
Is there a breakdown of those 45.7 million? Like how many are young, how many poor, how many in between jobs, how many in the country illegally, how many unemployed, etc.?
45 million is about 16% of the population. That’s approximately one out of six (I’m a high school dropout so I have to use my fingers and I don’t have that many fingers). In your life, are 1 out of 6 of your friends/family uninsured?
I NEVER said that private healthcare has, it can’t anymore than free government healthcare can. Duh.
See, this is where that personal responsibility thing comes into play.
So how can a government program prevent something without controlling/taxing/forcing it upon us? It’s not as if the health dangers of alcohol were just exposed last wednesday in the obama teev show, it’s been known for decades.
58 – It can and it does. Lots of service man and women coming back from Bushs wars have gotten decent care – prosthetics, counseling, reconstructive surgery what have you but of course a lot of people HAVE NOT resulting in tragedy.
If progressives get their way – that’s going to change and quick.
Business as usual (i.e. the status quo) is not acceptable.
The government “doing everything” is not on the table. Counter to your right wing fantasies no one is advocating that. Obviously the “free market” has FAILED to do “everything” but that just bounces off your pointy head.
Fix the system that serves veterans and native american indians first.
Prove the government can do it before they add millions more to the program.
63 – Classic. Sorry. That’s “business as usual”, that’s “block that kick”.
Go sell that somewhere else.
The progressive plan is for a public “option”. Meaning if the status quo steps up, finds a way to lower costs and make a profit while delivering competent care (something they’ve failed to do for years for too many Americans) – then perhaps fewer would want to settle for government health insurance.
In my view it’d be nice to be like other countries where a citizen is automatically covered. And why not like France where even a non-citizen can get care with hardly anything out of pocket? Ever know any touring musicians who needed care in Europe? But we’re America, it takes a while for the blatantly obvious to settle in.
It’s pretty simple… the bigger the pool of insured, the more efficient insurance is. Meaning the cost comes down. Of course the Insurance Industry knows that they can make savings by keeping only those that don’t actually use the insurance.
– – – –
@63
The Vets are receiving their care from the government; not buying insurance and choosing their provider – as is being discussed in Congress and here.
But you already knew that. What an ass.
@48 I don’t like your suggestion, SJ. It should be called “Rabbit Farm.”
@53 SJ’s got a point. We’ll save a lot of money on health care if we do away with vaccinations and everyone dies from disease by age 16.
Exactly, business as usual. If the government can’t provide healthcare to those it has already promised it, promise it to some more.
Hhmm, pay for your own insurance or get free government healthcare. I don’t see many people giving up something for free, no matter how much better the private sector does it.
France heat wave death toll set at 14,802
All those deaths in 104 degree heat. If france was controlling the healthcare in the san fernando valley, the death toll could be millions.
And the reason the french parliment blamed on the deaths? (same link)
French Parliament released a harshly worded report blaming the deaths on a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly.
Chronically insufficient care for the elderly? I wonder if that had anything to do with the increased medical costs of old people.
If only we had unions more like those in france.
Health Minister Jean-Francois Mattei has ordered a separate special study this month to look into a possible link with vacation schedules after doctors strongly denied allegations their absence put the elderly in danger. The heat wave hit during the August vacation period, when doctors, hospital staff and many others take leave. The results of that study are expected in November.
And it wasn’t just the socialized medicine in france…
Other European countries hit by the heat have been slower than France to come out with death tolls, but it’s clear they also suffered thousands of deaths.
Yup, been there myself a few time.
I know more musicians from out of the country that have received “free” healthcare.
jenny mccarthy and oprah don’t believe in vaccinations. If they had their way you would get your wish.
I wonder how many people that watch oprah decided not to vaccinate their kids?
Oprah is saving the country money.
I love how stupid Stamn is:
Only a true idiot could write this:
1. Native Americans are geneticaly much more prone to diabetes.
2. Native americans have had their traditional livlihoods taken from them and were put on reservations (supported by republicans).
3. Since they are poor – they have survived off the awful “surplus” food “donated” by corporations.
Republicans, of course, oppose giving food (especially good food) to poor people.
4. The poorer you are – the worse the food you eat. In some inner cities – there are no fresh fruits and vegies available (they call this the “free” market.
Stamn- you are so dumb you manage to simplify everything into little sound bites that are upside down and wrong. Anything deeper than the surface, that actually required thought, you miss completely.
Thanks for re-demonstrating how incredibly superficial and stupid you are, once again.
@ 53. correctnotright
@43:
While I agree with some of what SJ says,
Sorry but this is far from the truth.
Preventive pediatric medicine saves a lot of money .. vaccinations, well baby care, nutrition are all great investments because sick kids cost lots of money.
Show me one study that demonstrates preventive care saves net costs in adults.
A lot of the rest of your screed on specific issues is mythology. There is a vast difference between demonstrating that a well supervised diet and exercise can improve individual health and showing that money spent these ways decreases costs. Moreover, a lot of the prevention story is far from true or greatly overstated.
To keep the thread focused I will only mentions a few items:
1. Diabetes is caused by diet.
2. Hypertension can be treated or prevented by diet.
3. Processed foods cause mass disease.
I am happy to discuss any of these one by one.
Wow the French government failed to step up to a natural disaster. Oh that doesn’t happen here with greed-based health care and Bush-style governance.
Except for a little thing called Katrina maybe?
Would private sector/low/no tax utopia have done better? Hardly.
Gee that liberatarian paradise that right wingers dream about can do anything – fight hurricanes and heat waves even.
104 degrees is a natural disaster?
If seattle had a week of 104 degrees, how many people would die?
You probably mean conservative paradise.
Causing mass disease resulting from being fat or something else?
73 – People all the time die from heat waves in this country.
Most of the people who died in the French heat wave were elderly.
The heat wave was unexpected as France has cool evenings even in August when the heat wave happened.
The Euros generally check out for vacation in August – that contributed to lack of people to deal with the crisis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2....._heat_wave
A brilliant economist, nobel prize winner and national treasure explains why the right wing fantasies can never work for health care:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c.....ealthcare/
Actually it reads like common sense and was pretty much known as far back as 1963.
@75
Just look at the statistics from say Chicago when they have a heat wave. Lots of deaths.
One thing that drives the numbers up somewhat for Europe is air conditioning is much less common compared to here even in the parts of Europe that regularly see fairly high temperatures all summer long. The older building stock and higher cost of energy has a bit to do with that.
@74
Processed food is generally lower in fiber and nutrition density but higher in sugar, sodium, and fat than whole foods. They also tend to contain trans-fats (though most companies are removing trans-fats from their products now)
Because of the low nutrition density and because most animals crave sugar, salt, and fat people tend to eat more calories in the form of processed food than they should.
This isn’t to say processed foods are “evil” just that one should attempt to limit their intake as much as possible.
@78 I would hope not to demonize anyone’s eating preferences but, for those who prefer “natural” foods, there have been a number of very serious issues because of the natural way they are prepared:
use of butter in France and in Cajun country
smoked food and barbecued foods contain carcinogens.
“natural” peanut butter can be esily contaminated by a carcinogenic fungus.
Whale blubber is hardly low in trans fats.
natural foods grown outside of tropical areas are deficient in essential vitamins.
The bottom line is that the idea that we have a lot of disease because of eating products made by Kellogs or Proctor and Gamble or even MD’s is way overstated. You can poison yourself perfectly well with a natural diet.
@71 Stamm
Actually the most important cause of death in this country is partisan schwanzes who care more about their peacock tails then about healthcare.
Don’t you bore yourself with your meaningless posts?
NutsTooTight farted:
Foolish NutsTooTight, the link is in #8. Been there for a while. Just like the links for the illegals are in #3.
Butt NutsTooTight loves to puff up his chest and try and look great.
Regarding peer review, while Puddy did find others who peer reviewed it, others disagreed with the peer review. Puddy posted them. If you choose to agree 540 Iraqis or more die per day, so be it.
Regarding this:”All three numbers are likely to be higher for 2008 due to massive job losses.” Then why is “the messiah” and others still using these old numbers FOOL? All Puddy did was use the same numbers argument they did. Whadda moron!
You are destroyed by your own ignorance AGAIN!
Can you say KABLAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMO?
#53 Hey, every single study says that preventative medicine saves money….do you not pay attention?
———-
Typical of the blather that so often gets posted here. See:
Preventive care not always cost effective, experts say
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH.....index.html
Meanwhile, how would one possibly know that “every single study says that preventative medicine saves money”?
Do you have a source for this sweeping claim, notsobright?