Twice now I’ve mentioned “war crimes” and the Bush administration in the same sentence, acts of deliberate provocation that sure tied the righties’ panties in a knot. But contrary to the screaming headlines of the all-knowing Orb, I have never explicitly called Donald Rumsfeld a war criminal — and out-of-work radio host Brian Maloney doesn’t do his job prospects any good with his incoherent and (and fictional) assertion that I have twice called for administration officials to be executed.
Gimme a break.
But given the recent show trial of Saddam Hussein and his top aides, and their subsequent “fumbled” executions (I suppose Bush was referring to the moment Barzan Ibrahim’s severed head hit the ground,) I think it quite an appropriate time to stop and consider the very notion of “war crimes,” especially considering the inherently violent and unforgiving nature of war itself. As Americans, we are quick to examine Saddam’s murderous life and discard him as a monstrous dictator undeserving of mercy… and that very well may be true. But at the same time, President Bush — our Commander in Chief — has himself been directly responsible for the death and dismemberment of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, not to mention the destabilization of Iraq into a bloody civil war that claims hundreds more lives every day.
Perhaps such “collateral damage” is an unavoidable and thus acceptable consequence of war, and perhaps our unprovoked “preemptive” invasion of Iraq is both morally and legally justified.
But… even if one disagrees with the notion that our own government is guilty of war crimes itself, it should at the very least be possible to empathize with the hundreds of millions of Muslims who may view the administration’s actions less charitably. We invaded Iraq, allegedly in pursuit of weapons of mass destruction that were not there, and possibly with high government officials fully cognizant that the publicly touted intelligence was false and/or deliberately misleading. We tortured, humiliated and perhaps murdered defenseless Iraqi prisoners. President Bush’s decisions have undoubtedly resulted in death, destruction and untold human misery.
I’m not saying that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld committed war crimes, or that they should be brought before an international tribunal. But I certainly believe it to be a proper subject of debate, for moral introspection — even self-recrimination — is a worthy and absolutely necessary exercise within a functioning democracy. So for those of you who would attempt to silence this debate, who would denounce any mention of the subject as an act of treason or terrorism, well… I strongly suggest you stay away from the Citizens’ Hearing on the Legality of U.S. Actions in Iraq being held this weekend in Tacoma:
The Citizens’ Hearing on the Legality of U.S. Actions in Iraq will be held on January 20-21, 2007, in Tacoma, Washington, two weeks before the Feb. 5 court martial of Lieutenant Ehren Watada at Fort Lewis.. The Citizens’ Hearing will function as a tribunal to put the Iraq War on trial, in response to the Army putting Lt. Watada on trial as the first U.S. military officer to refuse deployment to Iraq.
[…] The hearing will present the case that Lt. Watada would, if allowed, make at his court martial. His defense attorneys maintain that the war on Iraq is illegal under international treaties and under Article Six of the U.S. Constitution. Further, Lt. Watada’s defense argues that the Nuremberg Principles and U.S. military regulations require soldiers to follow only “lawful orders.” In Lt. Watada’s view, deployment to Iraq would have made him party to the crimes that permeate the structure and conduct of military operations there.
The format of the Citizens’ Hearing will resemble that of a congressional committee, employing a dignified approach to gathering information. Testimony will be offered by Iraq War veterans, experts in international law and war crimes, and human rights advocates. Your gift of funds (or frequent flyer miles) will enable more of these clear voices to be heard by people around the country and the world. Among the figures that have committed to testify are:
- Daniel Ellsberg, military analyst who released the Pentagon Papers in the Vietnam War;
- Denis Halliday, Former UN Assistant Secretary General, coordinated Iraq humanitarian aid;
- Richard Falk, Professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University;
- Stacy Bannerman Military Families Speak Out; author of “When the War Came Home”
- Harvey Tharp, former U.S. Navy Lieutenant and JAG stationed in Iraq;
- Antonia Juhasz, policy-analyst and author on U.S. economic policies in Iraq;
- John Burroughs, Lawyers’ Committee on Nuclear Policy executive director;
- Benjamin G. Davis, Assoc. Law Prof., Univ. of Toledo; expert on law of war;
- Eman Khammas, Iraqi human rights advocate (via video).
- Geoffrey Millard, 8 years in NY Army National Guard; stationed in Ground Zero, Kuwait, Iraq.
- Ann Wright, Retired Army Colonel and State Department official
- Darrell Anderson, Army 1st Armored Division in Baghdad & Najaf; awarded Purple Heart
- Dennis Kyne, 15 years as Army medic & drill sergeant; trained in NBC warfare; Gulf War I.
- Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law at University of Illinois (video testimony)
- Chanan Suarez-Diaz, Former Navy hospital corpsman; awarded Purple Heart & Commendation with Valor.
A panel of citizens will hear the testimony, examine witnesses, and issue a fact-finding report. The panel will be comprised of veterans, members of military families, high school students, union members, and representatives of local governments, academia, and religious organizations. David Krieger, Director of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, Former Army 2nd Lieutenant stationed in Hawaii during the Vietnam War, and a member of the Jury of Conscience at the 2005 World Tribunal on Iraq (in Istanbul) will serve as panel chair.
Panelists’ questioning will focus on the legality of the war and whether or not the invasion of Iraq in 2003 constituted a “crime against the peace,” whether the military occupation and economic constriction of Iraq constitutes a “crime against humanity,” and whether individual soldiers have an obligation or duty to refuse unlawful orders. We expect that this hearing will focus attention on the role of the U.S. government–rather than that of individual soldiers–in perpetrating the crimes of the Iraq War.
If you find the very notion of such a mock war tribunal offensive, then absolutely don’t attend Friday Jan 20 and Saturday Jan 21 at Evergreen State College’s Tacoma Campus, 1210 6th AVE. And absolutely don’t tune in to my show on 710-KIRO Saturday night at 8PM, when I’ll have Daniel Ellsberg on to discuss the Watada case and the conduct of our war in Iraq.
Goldy, you don’t want to do it, well then, I will.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz, Scooter Libby – all war criminals. And why? Because they lied about the circumstances leading us to war. If you do the wrong thing for the right reason, it is still wrong.
The war has killed thousands on both sides and, in particular, many innocent civilians just trying to live their lives in a war they DIDN’T ask for. We created this war for OUR security needs (at least that’s what we were told), not their security needs. Getting rid of Saddam was supposed to make what has come after palatable to the Iraqis. Should we ask them now if it was worth it? Should we ask them if they want us to take our toys and go home? Oh no, they would fall into civil war. Again, I say, ask them – which would they rather have us or insurgents?
“President Bush — our Commander in Chief — has himself been directly responsible for the death and dismemberment of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians,”
The above statement is absolutely untrue. The insurrgents, Al-Quida, and whoever else has been dismembering Iraqi civilians do NOT work for President Bush, nor are they under his “command and control.”
There is a difference between direct and indirect responsibility. As Commander in Chief, President Bush is directly responsible for all US military members and their conduct. He may be indirectly responsible for other deaths in the War for arguments sake.
How many tens of thousands of innocent lives were destroyed when President Clinton authorized Gen Wesley Clark to bomb the living hell out of Kosovo?
Just asking………….
PS: (I was there and did wholeheartedly approve of Clinton’s war on Milosovic!)
Goldy,
Sure, sure, but George’s motives were pure*. That make’s all the difference, doesn’t it? Nearly everybody knows this. For the rest of you a little Dostoyevsky’s Grand Inquisitor might be in order.
*insert “unadulterated bullshit”
LT Watada deserves whatever punishment the military gives him. Standing up for what you believe in can be costly, I do hope he is ready to pay the piper! He knew the risks and the consequences……….
re 3: Well, All I can say is: People can overcome their environment.
For instance: Richard Nixon ran floating crap games and poker games in WW II and fleeced the pay out of many a GI. He also drank to excess, was involved in the theatre, and in Musical Theatre productions.(If you get my drift.)
The worst thing he ever did was to drunkenly race around Key Largo with his buddy, Bebe Rebozo, in a Cigarette Boat where they carelessly beheaded an 8 year old Brownie as she capered and played in the shallow surf.
The sight of that tykes head bobbing in the shallow water made him grow up fast.
Look what a great President he became!
re 4: That’s how I felt about the Eichmann trial.
mac @ 2
With all due respect, I think your distinction between direct and indirect responsibility in the context of the Iraq War is Clintonian in tone: you’ll remember, “that depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.” Bush is directly responsible for starting an unnecessary war. Any carnage that flows from that is on his hands. It’s called accountability. If I made a decision that resulted in the destruction and loss of life that Bush’s decision concerning Iraq has caused, I do not believe I could live with myself. I sure as hell would feel responsible for every death.
This is exactly the kind of discussion and excercise that scares the shit out of conservatives. They fear the truth as vampires fear the light of day.
@4: “I do hope he is ready to pay the piper! He knew the risks and the consequences……….”
Idiot. The good Lt. has so stated repeatedly, unlike the contemptuous dork currently inhabiting the White House.
7
Laura has told us that George cries at night over the deaths of soldiers in Iraq.
My guess is he still sleeps.
I wouldn’t be able to.
@2 If the U.S. president orders American forces into combat, and those forces damage property and kill noncombatants, how is the president not responsible? The “collateral damage” may be inadvertent, and the war debatably justified, but the president who decides upon war nevertheless is responsible for the consequences of his decision. The buck stops on his desk, Mac! And if it turns out to be a bad decision, well … the president takes the blame. That’s only fair.
Also, atrocities are committed in every war, and that’s something every president should know upfront. If he doesn’t understand this fact of war, he has no business occupying that office.
@4 The military is quietly discharging deserters and objectors, while prosecuting those who “go public” with their opposition to the war. So, what people like Watada are really being punished for is speaking out, not disobeying orders or missing movement. Do you think the punishment is proportional to the offense in these cases, Mac?
@7 Realistically, when was the last time ANY Republican accepted ANY responsibility for ANY rotten thing they did?
Proud Leftist,
I was speaking of the definitions used by the military, which certainly apply to the Commander in Chief. There isn’t any court that would hold him ‘directly’ responsible for the actions of people that he did NOT command and control.
President Bush isn’t telling the terrorists to chop off Americans heads, as a matter of fact, he is trying to prevent it, not that they are being too successful right at the moment.
Anyone with an ounce of humanity in them would feel responsible for all of those deaths. There are times when the cost of war is worth it. How many dead soldiers would have been too high a price to stop Stalin, Hitler, POL POT, or Milosovic? How many soldiers died in World War I? WWII? Was it worth it? Americans place a very high value on a person’s life, much greater than most of the other peoples in the world today.
It seems unlikely that Bu$h xliii & his henchpersons will be accused of war crimes—-any more so than Presidents Kennedy, L. Johnson, Nixon, or Ford. The loooooong stretch from beating a taxi driver to death in Baghdad to a copy of a Presidential “finding” in an interrogator’s cover-your-ass file is way too big a jump. Not gonna’ happen.
It might make interesting speculation & political theater, but it looks mostly un-do-able at this point!
I am also of the opinion that the same morning Speaker Pelosi’s velvet gavel smacked the 110th Congress into session a huge bunch of shredders & burn bags went into full-scale destroy mode all over the world.
It’s my opinion that Saddam Hussein is responsible for all of this. If he would have complied with the international community, all the way back to the end of GW1, then maybe we would be discussing a different outcome.
I understand that the military goes to great length to limit non combatant casualties, even to the point ( I feel ) of hamstringing our troops.
@13 How about Foley?
But what about Kennedy? or Barney Frank or William Jefferson? They are still there……..
Just sayin
@14 You seem to think the insurgents are the only people in Iraq who are killing people.
Watada=rot in jail.
as for the war criminals you have to accuse almost all of congress who authorized it. They are still culpable.
The whole debate is silly, and distracts from more important issues.
Roger,
I agree with the responsiblity, just not “direct” responsiblity. Yes, atrocities do happen in every war, as a matter of fact, atrocities happen around the globe every day in dozens of countries.
Darfur is an atrocity on all humanity, the sad fact is that the majority of the world are uncivilized heathens. I was in shock on my first trip to Thailand at the living conditions there. The conditions in Saudia Arabia and Albania were also pretty deplorable to me when I was there.
Yes, they are discharging those who go awol and desert. They always have. They absolutely have to court-martial Watada…….. if they didn’t – they wouldn’t have any discipline in the military left. He’s a damn commissioned officer – someone who is paid to lead and be an example for all to follow…………. If they let him off, enlisted soldiers around the world would revolt! I just want to know if HE ever had a soldier punished for disobeying one of HIS orders?????
@14 No, wait, you said “terrorists.” News flash: Most of the guys killing American soldiers are Iraqis who are trying to evict a foreign invader from their country.
So every president and the Congress that authorized war have been war criminals. That is what you are stating. Interesting. Keep up the he lied chant. That is great. Can you start 2+2 =5 so that can be “true” too?
If Saddam would have complied to the first 16 UN resolutions, would Al quida be killing these people? Maybe, but probably not.
Has our Governments lack of strength and resolve in the occupation that followed the succesful removal of SH with the force needed to control the terrorists and secure the 15% of the country that is still in turmoil been piss poor. You bet. Can this be corrected? We’ll see.
Finally, ask the Kurds how our work has made their lives? Or the other 40% that is stable? Will leaving now make their lives better or worse? How about yours?
@16 It’s easy to demonize Saddam, but the fact is Bush would have invaded Iraq even if Saddam had fully met the U.N.’s demands. Fact is, spotty as his compliance was, Saddam was back in cooperation mode when Bush geared up to invade:
“After a crisis ensued and the U.S. contemplated military action against Iraq, Saddam resumed cooperation. The inspectors returned, but were withdrawn again on 16 December. … Butler reported in his biography that U.S. Ambassador Peter Burleigh, acting on instructions from Washington, suggested he pull his team from Iraq in order to protect them from the forthcoming U.S. and British airstrikes.” http://tinyurl.com/2mcvc
RR @ 13
The Republicans always talk about accountability when they discuss their endless tort deform proposals. Fault, according to Republicans, lies with whoever has less money or power than someone else. Personal notions of accountability never play into their equations.
Roger,
The Iraqi’s who are killing Iraqi’s are doing it because they hate each other, they hate each other’s religious sect, and they want power and control of the government and the OIL!
They are NOT doing it because they are repeling a foreign invader.
Saddam violated sanctions for how many years? If the UN was concerned about doing their jobs instead of lining their pockets with millions and raping little girls in Africa, they could have stopped the Iraq war before it started.
Proud Leftist,
Are you sure Republicans are the ones carrying on about accountability with tort reform? I thought the Democratic complaint is that the Republicans let corporations off scott-free, like Asbestos and tobacco…….
There’s no more debate — Bush is a failed president and a failed commander-in-chief. Period.
He’s failing in the War on Terror — Where’s Osama?
He’s already failed in Iraq. There’s no longer a viable military solution to Bush’s immense failure of military leadership in the battle for Iraq.
He’s run up the national debt to 9 TRILLION dollars and has burdened each and every American with a “Birth Tax” that currently stands around $29,000 per person — and growing by the day.
He’s trampled on the Constitution and our Civil Liberties –amazingly FISA courts are now fast enough since the Democrats are in control.
Global warming, even leading corporations in America are telling Bush to get with the scientist’s conclusion. The world ain’t flat jackasses!
Instead of me listing every failure I’ll simply pose the question no conservative has ever been able to answer with honesty or satisfaction and that is:
What one thing as George W. Bush and the Republican Party done exceedingly well?
Not one fucking thing!
There is one silver cloud to Bush being president: He is the epitome of the Evangelical, right-wing Christian conservative. He’s the wet dream president of the conservative movement and his total and complete incompetence has already dismantled the conservative movement in America. It has died a natural death and is buried in the unmarked and uncelebrated grave next to McCarthyism.
Self described conservatives are just too stupid to realize it yet. But you idiots will.
Look at the elections of 2006. Right up to the end you jackasses thought you’d still control congress. Bush was banking on it. But not ONE Democrat running for re-election as a governor, congressman or senator lost their bid for re-election — NOT ONE!
Liberals won in traditional red states on local, state and national levels. People are realizing that conservatism is a failed model of government like Marxism.
Our Founding Fathers were LIBERALS, the ideals we cherish are LIBERAL ideals. Socially conservative movements come and go in this country, but Liberalism stands the test of time.
Name one Republican who signed on the Declaration of Independence or ratified our Glorious Constitution. Hold your breath while you’re thinking of the answer. Please.
The genius of our Liberal Founding Fathers and the document they created is the only thing that stood between us and losing the moral high ground in America.
Thank God I’m a Liberal. And for all you conservatives – You’re Welcome! We saved your Civil Liberties and rights again.
Welcome back,GBS!
I believe your handle has been being hi-jacked lately. The most likely suspect was DarrellSucksButtPutty. . . .
funny I never lost a SINGLE civil right despite all the outcry.
Svein, you wouldn’t!
Lets see….I pay my taxes, I go to work, I use my phone and my email for legal purposes and I dont call suspected terrorists.
Your right…no reason i would.
GBS WELCOME BACK. MY WINGNUT BRO “YO” HAS HIJACKED YOUR HANDLE. YOU GOTTA UNDERSTAND HIM. HE WAS HAND FED BIRCHER LIT BY OUR PARENTS. I REBELLED AND BECAME A LIBERAL.
HE’S A PITIFUL SORT.
EXCELLENT COMMENTARY, BY THE WAY.
Hey Pope – What do you think of your new employee???
LMAO… pope is goldy’s boss….
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....wap19.html
Goldy workin for the mormons… how fucking funny is that?
Goldy as a lackey for a religious cult. Fucking hilarious… GOldy… ya gotta do the right thing. Quit right now you fucking hypocrite…
He’s not our Commander in Chief. He’s our president. He’s the CinC of the armed services, but not of the country.
I wonder what Kook Kucinich thinks of having a religous cult own a bunch of radio stations. Since the airwaves are owned by The People, isn’t this a violation of the mythical “wall of separation”?
Goldy, I think you need to start a campaign to fire your bosses.
“I wonder what Kook Kucinich thinks of having a religous cult own a bunch of radio stations.”
Apparently as much as you do about a cult leader who thinks he is God Incarnate owning a major newspaper.
Mormon, er, moron.
Roger Rabbit says:
@4 The military is quietly discharging deserters and objectors, while prosecuting those who “go public” with their opposition to the war. So, what people like Watada are really being punished for is speaking out, not disobeying orders or missing movement. Do you think the punishment is proportional to the offense in these cases, Mac?
01/19/2007 at 4:35 pm
Roger this is not Viet Nam and how the punishment is handed out is not what you claim. Today we do not shoot deserters like they did back in the late 1700’s. Yes Watada will be treated fairly and judge by an unbiased Officers. Remember they same Officers that could have served with you in Viet Nam, and I’m sure they are as respectful as you were in a court room. Roger have you heard the statement that lifer isn’t fair but you will get over it. Watada had other choices but refused to take them, now that’s his problem not the military.
as Mike Malloy says, “The Bush Crime Family” I also like “rat bastards”
Mark the Redneck is obsessed with Goldy, almost “taxi driver” like personality….
And yet George Bush managed to defeat John Kerry and Al Gore for the Presidency of the United States of America. Maybe the Democrats should have run a candidate with a plan and a pair… Just sayin’
Delbert, George Bush would just be another drunk passed out in a pool chair if the Supreme Court, in a brazenly partisan ruling, hadn’t handed the presidency to “The Decider”.
He didn’t beat Gore. Looking at the Ohio returns, there may well be serious doubt he won in 2004, either.
Barzan Ibrahim was not very well hung!
It is almost comical watching the wingnuts defending Bush, and ignoring the 100 wrong decisions in a row he made in Iraq. My personal belief is there is no way anyone could possibly make as many tragic mistakes without intending to do so.
It appears Bush, and his partners in crime wanted chaos. It is the only explanation that makes any sense. Just look at what it has done for the price of oil…..
Now on to the war crimes.
When Bush “took out” Saddam that made us responsible for security in Iraq. Period. Every single death in Iraq is 100% the fault of Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld. Saddam was no threat and they knew it.
Every piece of intelligence they quoted trying to sell the war had already been proven to be unreliable, false, or unsubstantiated, while they were telling us they were facts. Simply put they lied about the threat of Saddam. This is treason by any measure. Any 3 year old could understand this.
I am no Saddam fan, but I think it is comical when I watch the wingnuts talking about the oil for food program corruption. It was American companies doing most of the bribing of Saddam, and you don’t see the CEO of Exxon on trial for paying bribes to him. Remember laws are for poor people not powerful oil men.
The Bush Gang truly did think the Iraqis were going to cover us with flowers, and hand us chocolates for liberating them. The only thing they thought about after the invasion was what to do with the oil revenue, and how they could funnel the Iraqis wealth to their buddies. This is pretty easy to prove also.
As far as violating U.N. resolutions that point is moot. The UN did not authorize military action. Period. The wingnuts seem to forget that fact.
We have opened the gates of hell on the Iraqis, all so Bush could act like a war president, and get votes for people stupid enough to support a “war president” without asking too many questions.
Anyone that thinks the mess we created in Iraq has made us safer should be locked up, because they are insane.
Impeach, Prosecute, Incarcerate. Then off to Nuremburg to see if the rest of the world thinks they committed War Crimes!!!!
FACTS: YOU ARE 100 PERCENT CORRECT. ANY FUTURES TRADER KNOWS THAT VOLATILITY IS YOUR FRIEND. WITHOUT IT, THERE’S NO OPPORTUNITIES FOR SPECULATIVE PROFITS.
THE BUSH REPUBLICAN CROWD IS A REACTIONARY SPECULATIVE CROWD. THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY BY PLACING BETS ON THE PRICE MOVES OF COMMODITIES LIKE OIL, GOLD, REAL ESTATE, AG FUTURES ETC. THAT’S WHY THEY LOVE WAR SO MUCH. IT PUTS EVERYTHING IN A TAILSPIN SO THEY CAN SWOOP IN AND BUY CHEAP, SELL HIGH.
THE OPPOSITE OF SPECULATION IS LONG TERM INVESTMENT IN INNOVATIVE TECHNOLOGY WHICH REQUIRES PATIENT EFFORT. THE BUSH CROWD HATES THAT.
Now time to refute the wingnuts.
#2 sgmmac How many tens of thousands of innocent lives were destroyed when President Clinton authorized Gen Wesley Clark to bomb the living hell out of Kosovo?
It was to stop genocide. This makes it legal under international law. By the way it was also authorized.
#16 It’s my opinion that Saddam Hussein is responsible for all of this. If he would have complied with the international community, all the way back to the end of GW1, then maybe we would be discussing a different outcome.
We were gonna bomb the crap out of them no matter what Saddam did. The only thing that could have stopped the invasion would have been for him to run out of oil. By the way the international community was making billions off his oil. They weren’t going to do anything.
#19 as for the war criminals you have to accuse almost all of congress who authorized it. They are still culpable.
Remember Bush said he was going to use force only as a last resort. Authorizing the use of force is one thing. Bombing a non threatening nation to increase ones political power is another thing. Lying about intelligence is another thing too.
#22 If Saddam would have complied to the first 16 UN resolutions, would Al quida be killing these people? Maybe, but probably not.
You wingnuts keep saying it is Al Queda, and terrorists attacking us. You ever stop and ask yourself why they are attacking us, the only ally of their worst enemy Israel? Kinda funny the British considered all the Patriots, and our founding fathers the same way…. Oh I better remind you. Iraq was the only place in the Middle East Al Queda was not operating. In fact Saddam was their enemy. Oooooops betcha conveniently forgot that.
#25 Saddam violated sanctions for how many years? If the UN was concerned about doing their jobs instead of lining their pockets with millions and raping little girls in Africa, they could have stopped the Iraq war before it started.
I agree with sgmmac quite a bit. The U.N. is only there for one thing. To make it easier for the super rich, and corporations that run this world to share the planet’s resource between themselves. If a few million people starve to death every year, or get killed by brutal dictators they only care as much as their $$$$$ masters let them. I agree. The U.N. should represent the people of this planet, not the ruling class.
#27 Absolutely right. Bush, and his cronies, and lap dog Republicans have been a disaster for our country by any measure. We will probably never recover from the damage they have done to our nation. I guess that is what it took to get rid of the Conservative Movement, which was based on lies, straw men, hate, and illusion anyway. It just took someone as insane as Bush to show us how insane it really was.
#42 Gore won Florida. Kerry won Ohio. Too much evidence says this.
Is it a crime to talk about war crimes?”
Of course not. Republicans are in the White House. Now if it was me defending Muslims by killing Christians we would not be having this discussion. You are very useful Goldy.
#42 Gore won Florida. Kerry won Ohio. Too much evidence says this.
We agree!
sgmmac,If Saddam would have complied to the first 16 UN resolutions. . .
You mean the ones that ordered him to destroy the WMD’s? How? he didnt have any.
So, the administration negotiated in good faith? As I recall they walked out because of those WMD’s that we now know didnt exist and that its likely the administration knew at the time didnt exist.
When are you living dems going to fight for our voting rights. Millions of our votes are left uncounted each election. Remember you need us to win.
#51 The Dead Democrats says:
When are you living dems going to fight for our voting rights. Millions of our votes are left uncounted each election. Remember you need us to win.
——–
And to think Jebbie got 92,000 legitimate minority voters kicked off the rolls in 2000. Remember Choicepoint even stated that they told him the lists were inaccurate, and he had them (many of them vets) kicked off anyway. And he didn’t do time for this crime either. Who is the Attorney General anyway?
By they way, now is Fla #13 coming along. 18,000 people forgot to vote for a congressional candidate in a strong democrat area.
If you want to learn about voting funny business, read Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast. It will make you sick to your stomach, learning about the GOP Crime Syndicate. If you are a conservative, you won’t like it much, but it may be good to read so you begin to understand why real Americans hate you so much. Too much reality for your type. Documented voter suppression, fraud, and Ken Blackwell style dis-enfranchisement. And you wingnuts are worried about dead people voting? Name one person that was arrested voting for a dead person.
Republicans not only lie, they cheat. You’ll never stop it unless you kill em all.
Bill, I didn’t say what you quoted ……. Dengle did.
Wouldn’t you love to get ahold of “the dead democrat voter” and choke the living shit out of him?
Well, we know where to find you guys when we need to.
read Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast? Iam sure they are not biased. God with facts like these who needs lies. heehehe
Hey facts do you support mandatory voter ID at the polls? hehehehehe You can always tell a liberal by their response to this question. hehehehe
Wally the talking Badger says:
Republicans not only lie, they cheat. You’ll never stop it unless you kill em all.
Hey Wally what is your take on mandatory voter ID’s at the polls? I already know what the aswer is, I just love hearing the liberal liars spin this question.
WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW THE FUCKING PISS ANT GBS HAS FINALY GOT OUT OF JAIL.BEAT THE WIFE AGAIN.I REALLY HAD HOPED YOU GOT RUN OVER. FUCK YOU LOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSER.
#57 No. Actually it is a felony to try to vote for someone else. You also have to be registered to vote at that polling place. Kinda hard to fake it. I am more worried about tens of thousands of legitimate voters being kicked off the rolls by Republican Governors, or Secretary’s of States, and voter machines not distributed properly. Much less voting machines where the company that makes the machine tells us who won the election, and there is no paper trail.
The voter id scam is just a way to keep a few poor people away from the polls. I bet you didn’t know that…..
By ’08 it isn’t gonna matter anyway. The GOP is dead. They should just pack up and go home. After 2 years of real government by real politicians, and not just lying hypocrite hacks, America will want a Democrat for president, and the Republicans will lose another 5-10 Senate seats, and another 50 seats in the house.
And we still haven’t issued one subpoena.
I am more worried about tens of thousands of legitimate voters being kicked off the rolls by Republican Governors, or Secretary’s of States, and voter machines not distributed properly. Much less voting machines where the company that makes the machine tells us who won the election, and there is no paper trail.
To bad democrats have to much voter fraud to hide. They could really make some political hay out of this if they could only prove it.
wow goldy……”Wally the talking Badger says:
Republicans not only lie, they cheat. You’ll never stop it unless you kill em all”
as funny as that name is this is the typical stuff you MAKE UP completely and it’s pathetically obvious.why are you so violent? and why do you always deny that you are?
why do you do it? do you really think that it makes any of us think that you “read by zillions” of people? come on…..fantasy is getting you nowhere.
and now you work for the mormons. gawd…..that IS funny……..
The voter id scam is just a way to keep a few poor people away from the polls. I bet you didn’t know that…..
Democrats are scared of voter ID because it would make it harder for them to cheat. That is the bottom line. Here is another question for all you libs who are against a voter ID at the polls. Should a gun be taken away from someone with no ID or registration? Why? hehehehe
Pretty easy to prove Jebbie kicked off legitimate voters because they were likely to vote for democrats.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040517/palast
http://archive.salon.com/polit.....print.html
Pretty easy to prove.
By the way, have you found them WMD’s yet. Aw who cares. Lets just send a few thousand more people to Iraq to die for Bush’s ego. What are all them soldiers good for anyway?
Mission Accomplished!
@25 When, in the entire history of the world, did anyone NOT try to eject foreign invaders?
@25 I guess Mac is still wallowing in the wingnut propaganda about Iraqis welcoming our troops with rose petals. (knocking on skull) Helloooo … anyone home?
#63. Please provide links to the number of democrats prosecuted for cheating. All you cons have is straw arguments, and outright lies. Being Republicon means lying is ok right? Your whole ideology is based on lies anyway, and you freaks are too stupid to even see it. Search the internets for links to all the Democrats prosecuted for voter fraud in the last 10 years. Then compare it to Blackwell’s keeping tens of thousands of legitimate voters from voting in a dozen sleazy ways.
Live in the inner city of Ohio, and you want to vote? Good luck. All the machines are in the rural areas. Sorry homie!
Democrats are not perfect, but compared to Republicons they are FU*KING GODS.
I just can’t get the picture of Bush looking for WMD’s under that desk. “No WMD’s Here (laugh, laugh). It is all one big joke to him right?
Millions upon millions want him to pay for his crimes, and we are not going away. Ever.
And we still have not issued one subpoena.
facts[ahem…]……what you are really saying since we don’t have the draft [although democrats are all for it..] is that the soldiers that serve our country so well and risk their lives so that wind bags like you can sit on your ass and whine are too stupid to know what to do, isn’t that really what you are saying?
it’s not for bush’s ego you dolt…it’s for the freedom of the iraqi people. where are all your stories about us being there to just “steal oil”????
didn’t play well when it was obviously not true?
you liberals whine about the civilian casualties. where were you when saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of his own people? you want real torturers? real war criminals? we are hunting them down right now as you whine….
if you think bush is a war criminal because “he lied to us” [WAH WAH WAH…and no he didn’t] about the war…then you better be going after clinton too. or is your memory that short?
@29 “sven says: funny I never lost a SINGLE civil right despite all the outcry. 01/19/2007 at 5:54 pm”
Patience, child. Your turn will come.
“DNA Reverses 12th Case in Texas County
“Exoneration Tally an ‘International Embarrassment’
“By JEFF CARLTON
“AP
“James Waller, imprisoned for ten years for the rape of a boy, is the 12th person in Dallas County to be cleared by DNA evidence.
“That is more DNA exonerations than in all of California, and more than in Florida, too. In fact, Dallas County alone has more such cases than all but three states – a situation one Texas lawmaker calls an ‘international embarrassment.’
“James Waller, 50, was exonerated by a judge earlier this week and received an apology from the district attorney’s office after … DNA testing … showed he was not the rapist who attacked a 12-year-old a boy … in 1983. …
“‘It’s been a long, horrible road,’ said Waller, who has been out on parole since 1993.
“Only New York, Illinois and Texas have had more DNA exonerations than Dallas County, which has a population of 2.3 million, according to the Innocence Project, a New York-based legal center that specializes in overturning wrongful convictions.
“‘These are appalling mistakes, and in the case of Dallas County, there have been so many,’ said Democratic state Sen. Rodney Ellis of Houston ….”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/2qxdgn
P.S. – If you move to Dallas and dye your skin black, you’ll greatly improve your odds of not only losing a single civil right, but ALL of your civil rights! Texas. Why are we not surprised.
@35 You’re the last person to bleat about doing “the right thing,” Reddick! Pay your fucking gambling debt, you shameless liar and welsher.
64
I am not as concerned as you with a bunch of fellons who were not able to vote in Florida. I am concerned with the millions of active military ballots not being counted by the liberal voting districts.
From Navy Seals.com
http://www.navyseals.com/commu.....fm?id=6536
By Chad Miles
A recent report issued by the National Defense Committee, a nonprofit organization that supports the U.S. military and encourages veterans to run for elective office, recently found that 25 percent of ballots cast by military personnel in the 2004 presidential election went uncounted. Incredibly, that rate of disenfranchisement could be even higher due to the fact that the study relied on voluntary disclosure of information from local election officials.
Unfortunately, the issue of soldiers being disenfranchised during an election is nothing new. We all remember the 2000 Florida recount fiasco and the events surrounding it. During that election, the rate of uncounted ballots cast by members of the armed forces was even higher at a staggering 29 percent nationwide.
In Florida, which turned out to be the pivotal state in determining the winner of the 2000 election, around 1,400 military absentee votes were left uncounted, largely because of the role of lawyers working for the Democratic Party at local canvassing boards who followed a directive from the party to challenge all military ballots on the premise that they likely were votes for Republican nominee George W. Bush.
Although many lawmakers vowed that the level of disenfranchisement seen in the aftermath of that election would never happen again, it looks like it did.
According to the committee’s study, “Military and Overseas Absentee Voting in the 2004 Election,” the largest problem in managing military absentee ballots is not hostile attorneys, but rather what military historians call “the tyranny of distance” – the unavoidable difficulties inherent in getting ballots to our deployed military people serving overseas.
During the election in 2000, the study found that, 30 percent of military personnel did not receive their ballot in time to cast a vote. When you combine that figure with the number of votes that were tossed out for various reasons – including arriving to the absentee voters via snail mail past voting deadlines – you can see that the scope of the problem is enormous.
The challenge of getting ballots to soldiers was even worse during the 2004 election due to the post-9/11 deployments of military units to Iraq, Afghanistan and dozens of other countries in support of the Global War on Terror, the committee found. Units frequently on the move and mail delays caused by local threats such as the danger of roadside bombs made the task of getting ballots to the troops even more daunting.
However, military absentee voters once again in 2004 found themselves the target of partisan political maneuvering as had happened in Florida four years earlier.
Recognizing the fact that more time would be needed to count all of the military ballots arriving from overseas, the Pennsylvania legislature in 2004 requested that Gov. Edward G. Rendell authorize a two-week extension for the acceptance of military ballots to compensate for the issues surrounding the wartime situation in which our soldiers are now engaged.
However, in Pennsylvania in 2004, as in Florida in 2000, political operatives were motivated by their longstanding knowledge that a strong majority of military voters generally supports Republican candidates.
Rendell, a Democrat, initially refused the request to assist military absentee voters. But it later was discovered that he had launched an aggressive “get out the vote” information campaign within the state’s prison population, informing inmates of voting rights and providing them with absentee ballots for the election. Other studies have shown that a majority of the prison voting population supports Democratic candidates. The adverse publicity prompted Rendell to approve the extension for military overseas voters.
In Washington state, the U.S. Justice Department threatened to sue less than a month before the 2004 election because election officials had yet to even mail out absentee ballots to military personnel overseas. What may have been bureaucratic incompetence may well have altered the outcome of that state’s gubernatorial election.
The Washington state governor’s race between Republican nominee Dino Rossi and Democratic nominee Christine Gregoire turned out to be even tighter than the Florida presidential vote count in 2000. The Republican candidate won the first two re-counts but ultimately lost the third by 128 votes. With a total of 31,910 overseas ballots mailed out for that election, it’s easy to see that even a few lost, late or missing military votes made a huge impact in the election, ultimately deciding the race.
When it was time for Congress to ratify the 2004 election results and electoral vote count for the offices of President and Vice President during a joint session last December, two Democratic legislators challenged the results on the basis of voting irregularities and disenfranchisement. Was someone finally going to raise the issue of one-fourth of our deployed military men and women not having a voice in the democratic process? No.
The challenge concerned votes cast in the state of Ohio, which turned out to be the pivotal state in 2004 with enough electoral votes to swing the election and the Presidency to John Kerry. The challenge centered on disqualification of a newly created provisional ballot, not the military vote, and was nothing more than a symbolic protest by the party that had lost the presidential election.
It appears that once again the rights of military overseas voters are no longer an issue within the political establishment.
We should not have to still be struggling with this issue. Before the 2004 election, the Department of Defense launched an online voting system called the Secure Electronic Registration and Voting Experiment (SERVE), designed to give military personnel deployed around the world the ability to vote instantly online. This would have obviously corrected the problems surrounding the reliance of postal mail for balloting, and put an end to the partisan shenanigans we saw in Florida with Democratic Party lawyers targeting military voters for ballot rejection.
Alas, DoD officials opted to shut down the SERVE program before the election due to security concerns dealing with the sensitive nature of the data and the possibility of illegitimate votes being tabulated. Since DoD manages to send thousands of classified messages daily around the globe, many of them stamped “Top Secret,” it is hard to imagine that these security and privacy concerns cannot be resolved.
It is ridiculous to have our troops filling out paper ballots and placing them in the mail in a day and age when publicly available technology allows you to take a picture and send it to someone on the other side of the world with a small cellphone. The disenfranchisement on the scale that we have seen in recent years is unacceptable, but it is definitely correctible.
If DoD officials take the time to develop a secure and dependable electronic voting system, some election results may be drastically different in the years to come – but unlike the number of contested elections we have seen since 2000, the results will more likely reflect the judgment of all of the voters – including those serving in harm’s way to protect our freedoms.
Contributing Editor Chad Miles is a U.S. Army veteran who served with the 82nd Airborne Division and the 5th Special Forces Group during the 1990s. He founded the website WhoServed.com, which tracks the military service of previous and current U.S. government leaders, and is currently pursuing a degree in political science from the University of Michigan – Dearborn. He can be reached at chad@whoserved.com. Send Feedback responses to dwfeedback@yahoo.com.
@39 Thanks for your usual brilliant analysis, klake. It remains a fact that the military injustice system treats soldiers who publicly object to the war far more harshly than it treats deserters.
And to think, after 9-11 thousands of people held a candlelight vigil for us, mourning our dead.
In Tehran.
The world was united in support of our efforts to destroy Al Queda.
Bush said aw screw em, I’m invading Iraq. Fu*k you world. I don’t care what you think. That o’l iz mine!!!!
Bush finally hit the gusher he has been looking for since his old wildcattin’ days. Of course the only thing gushing in Iraq is the blood of innocent civilians, and our soldiers he neglected to give a rat’s ass about.
Did you hear, the 20,000 troops comprising the escalation are going to be rolling around Baghdad in un armored Hummers. We don’t have enough of the good Hummers to go around…
You neo-con wingnut murdering freaks just want to kill, kill, kill, and kill some more innocent people. All your pea brains understand. Murder.
You don’t deserve America.
What ya gonna do when we march Fuhrer Bush off to prison in cuffs?
Jim Hinde (Seattle Folk Singer): “Bush, and Cheney, gonna do the perp walk… That’s Democracy For Me.”
Bush: “Gee Dick, let’s bomb Iraq. I know Al Queda isn’t there, but they got plenny of o’l and Saddam put out a contract on my daddy.” Cheney: ” Yes Georgie, and I think Halliburton could use a couple of contracts……”
so roger by your [ahem] “logic” we never should have come up with the ability to test DNA.right?
they had no way of knowing that he wasn’t the guy that committed the crime [and i’ll bet he has a rap sheet about a mile long…after all when was the last time you were charged with something, hmmmmm?] and now that they are righting the mistake [and that’s what it was roger… a horrible mistake] you are bitching?
do you ever make any sense?
your theory is that all republicans and especially texans are so racist, right? okay…then why are they clearing these people’s names NOW THAT THEY ACTUALLY CAN?and do you really mean to sit here and claim that the ONLY people that have ever had this sort of thing happen to them are all non white? get real…..
i think you should be really pissed off at all the democratic presidents that let people die from infections BEFORE we had antibiotics. after all they are guilty as sin too by your “logic”….
good grief….you are an idiot.
@42 Bush defeated neither Gore nor Kerry, and this is the only plan Republicans ever had:
“A confidential campaign directed by GOP party chiefs in October 2004 sought to challenge the ballots of tens of thousands of voters …, virtually all of them cast by residents of Black-majority precincts.
“Files from the secret vote-blocking campaign were … attached to emails accidentally sent by Republican operatives to a non-party website.
“One group of voters wrongly identified by the Republicans as registering to vote from false addresses: servicemen and women sent overseas.
“Here’s how the scheme worked: The RNC mailed these voters letters in envelopes marked, ‘Do not forward’, to be returned to the sender. These letters were mailed to servicemen and women, some stationed overseas, to their US home addresses. The letters then returned to the Bush-Cheney campaign as ‘undeliverable.’
“The lists of soldiers of ‘undeliverable’ letters were transmitted from state headquarters, in this case Florida, to the RNC in Washington. The party could then challenge the voters’ registration and thereby prevent their absentee ballots being counted.
“One target list was comprised exclusively of voters registered at the Jacksonville, Florida, Naval Air Station. … (See this scrub sheet at http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.g.....038;size=o ) …
“A soldier returning home in time to vote in November 2004 could also be challenged on the basis of the returned envelope. Soldiers challenged would be required to vote by ‘provisional’ ballot. Over one million provisional ballots cast in the 2004 race were never counted; over half a million absentee ballots were also rejected.
“The extraordinary rise in the number of rejected ballots was the result of the widespread multi-state voter challenge campaign by the Republican Party. The operation, of which the purge of Black soldiers was a … part, was the first mass challenge to voting … in two decades.
“The BBC obtained several dozen confidential emails sent by the Republican’s national Research Director and Deputy Communications chief, Tim Griffin to GOP Florida campaign chairman Brett Doster and other party leaders. Attached were spreadsheets marked, ‘Caging.xls.’ Each of these contained several hundred to a few thousand voters and their addresses. A check of the demographics of the addresses on the ‘caging lists,’ as the GOP leaders called them indicated that most were in African-American majority zip codes.
“Ion Sanco, the non-partisan elections supervisor of Leon County (Tallahassee) when shown the lists by this reporter said: ‘The only thing I can think of – African American voters listed like this – these might be individuals that will be challenged if they attempted to vote on Election Day.’
“These GOP caging lists were obtained by the same BBC team that first exposed the wrongful purge of African-American ‘felon’ voters in 2000 by then-Secretary of State Katherine Harris. Eliminating the voting rights of those voters — 94,000 were targeted — likely caused Al Gore’s defeat in that race.
“The Republican National Committee in Washington refused … several requests to respond to the BBC discovery. However, in Tallahassee, the Florida Bush campaign’s … spokesperson …, Mindy Tucker Fletcher, … acknowledg[ed] that these were voters, ‘we mailed to, where the letter came back – bad addresses.’ The party has refused to say why it would mark soldiers as having ‘bad addresses’ subject to challenge when they had been assigned abroad.
“The apparent challenge campaign was not inexpensive. The GOP mailed the letters first class, at a total cost likely exceeding millions of dollars, so that the addresses would be returned to ‘cage’ workers. …
“Setting up such a challenge list would be a crime under federal law. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 outlaws mass challenges of voters where race is a factor in choosing the targeted group.
“While the party insisted the lists were not created for the purpose to challenge Black voters, the GOP ultimately offered no other explanation for the mailings. However, Tucker Fletcher asserted Republicans could still employ the list to deny ballots to those they considered suspect voters. When asked if Republicans would use the list to block voters, Tucker Fletcher replied, ‘Where it’s stated in the law, yeah.’ …
“Soldiers sending in their ballot from abroad would not know their vote was lost because of a challenge.
“For the full story of caging lists and voter purges of 2004, plus the documents, read Greg Palast’s New York Times bestseller, ARMED MADHOUSE ….”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete article and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/jv9nf
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Bleat your wingnuttery all you want, koolaid drinker; there’s not a Democrat left who believes the ’00 and ’04 elections weren’t stolen! The irony is wingnuts were gnashing their teeth over “military ballots” while committing federal felonies by interfering with the voting rights of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! And you pigfuckers call yourselves “patriots” and “Christians” … tsk, tsk, tsk. I got a feeling ol’ Beelzebub is saving an especially hot room in Hell for you lying assholes.
Republicans & those who support them = evil bastards
@48 et al. – Yeah, I’ve noticed the neo-nazi element on this board is now tooting the horn for Milosevicz and his Serb killers lately. That’s consistent with your celebrations of the Holocaust. Sorry boys, but your maniacal genocide freak Slobo is dead as a nail — you’ll have to find some other hero to worship. May I suggest .. hmmm … who CAN I suggest? Must of the guys you admire are stiffs … all dead …
Hitler
Mussolini
Idi Amin
Mugabe
Mobutu
Pinochet
Pol Pot
Milosevicz
Saddam
It’s getting tough to find a thug who’s still in business … oh wait I know … OSAMA BIN LADEN!!! Yeah, you guys love him … he rendered you a great service once …
re 58: What’s your take on getting your ass kicked in ’08?
@50 Mac doesn’t argue in good faith. She’s merely Wingnut Lite — brain dead and dishonest like the rest of them, but a little clumsier at spewing the talking points from Bullshit Central.
@51 See #77.
@57 “RUFUS Fitzgerald Kennedy says: Hey facts do you support mandatory voter ID at the polls? hehehehehe You can always tell a liberal by their response to this question. hehehehe 01/19/2007 at 10:05 pm”
Glad you asked that question, Doofus! The answer is NO. Why? Because photo ID keeps legitimate voters from voting, and there is no evidence that a single fraudulent ballot has been cast anywhere in the country by an imposter posing as a registered voter. So why do Republicans want photo ID, and what purpose does it serve? Easy, they want to discourage poor people, handicapped people, elderly people, and other people who don’t drive from voting — because they’re overwhelmingly likely to vote Democratic! It’s simply another mean-spirited scheme to keep American citizens from voting in their own country while sending their kids to die bringing fake democracy to foreign countries.
Last time I checked, the fake democracy we installed in Iraq was giving us the finger.
Until Bill Clinton interfered, Slobo Milosevicz and the Serbs were the neonutz’ brightest hope in Europe since the downfall of their buddy Hitler and his Nazis.
@59 “Yo” is a contraction of “yahoo” (as in “trailer park yahoo”) and is properly spelled “Y’o.” Like most wingnutz, Y’o can’t spell his own fucking name.
“They say you’re usin’ voodoo, your feet walk by themselves
They say you’re usin’ voodoo, I seen your feet walk by themselves
Oh, baby, that god you been prayin’ to
Is gonna give ya back what you’re wishin’ on someone else”
Robert Zimmerman
@61 “To bad democrats have to much voter fraud to hide. They could really make some political hay out of this if they could only prove it.”
Patience, Doofus. We own Congress now. There will be subpoenas and investigations aplenty. Soon. Very soon.
re 87: And you wingnuts can take that to the bank.
@61 (continued) Meanwhile, another Republican crook packs his bags for a long stay at the Graybar Hotel:
http://news.aol.com/topnews/ar.....1209990001
re: uSP
Little Green Echo Chamber – a technique where those who post dissenting viewpoints in comments threads are banned from further commenting in the website, ensuring that the Conservitards will only have other Conservitards to argue with.
@67 “Millions upon millions want him to pay for his crimes, and we are not going away. Ever.”
Bush knows it, too.
“Bush Buys Land in Northern Paraguay
“News – Buenos Aires, Oct 13 (Prensa Latina) An Argentine official regarded the intention of the George W. Bush family to settle on the Acuifero Guarani (Paraguay) as surprising, besides being a bad signal for the governments of the region.”
http://news.netscape.com/story.....n-paraguay
Paraguay … that’s where all the ex-Nazis fled to. No extradition.
@68 “you want real torturers? real war criminals? we are hunting them down right now as you whine….”
Ah, no, you fucking incompetents are mainly killing innocent civilians.
@68 (continued) Hey — Evanescent One, if you’ve hunted down so many “criminals” and “torturers,” how come there’s more of them now than when you started?
@71 “A recent report issued by the National Defense Committee, a nonprofit organization that supports the U.S. military and encourages veterans to run for elective office, recently found that 25 percent of ballots cast by military personnel in the 2004 presidential election went uncounted.”
You’re right, and it’s an absolute scandal! See #77.
@76 “so roger by your [ahem] ‘logic’ we never should have come up with the ability to test DNA.right?”
No; that idea never occurred to me. But I see it occurred to you. Who usually opposes DNA testing? Rightwing law-and-order types, that’s who.
” … they had no way of knowing that he wasn’t the guy that committed the crime …”
You’re right, and that’s the problem!
“[and i’ll bet he has a rap sheet about a mile long…”
Oh my, your racism is showing. He’s black, therefore he must be a criminal …
” … after all when was the last time you were charged with something, hmmmmm?]”
I don’t see the relevance of your question, but in any event, I don’t even get parking tickets. How many jurisdictions are YOU wanted in? Is that why you fled to California from Washington? Is your house near the Mexican border?
” … and now that they are righting the mistake [and that’s what it was roger… a horrible mistake] you are bitching?”
I’m suggesting they shouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place. You missed the point of the news story, which is standard for you. When a single county wrongly convicts more people than 47 states, I think that indicates something is terribly wrong in that county. After reviewing the Innocence Project’s case summaries, it looks like sloppy (or racist) police work.
“do you ever make any sense?”
Not to wingnutz like you. Anything that’s researched, supported by facts, and verified against reliable sources is likely to fly over the head of a fruitloop like you.
“your theory is that all republicans and especially texans are so racist, right?”
No, mrely too damned many of them.
” … okay…then why are they clearing these people’s names NOW THAT THEY ACTUALLY CAN?”
You still don’t get it, do you? Read the fucking article. They were cleared by an outside nonprofit agency, not by Texas or Dallas County authorities.
“… and do you really mean to sit here and claim that the ONLY people that have ever had this sort of thing happen to them are all non white?”
No. A quick internet search for information about the 12 Dallas County men shows they’re a mix. They’re identified here: http://tinyurl.com/3bn8cn
Well the photo of this guy doesn’t look too fucking white and I’ll bet if we saw photos of the other 11 you might notice a pattern.
” … i think you should be really pissed off at all the democratic presidents that let people die from infections BEFORE we had antibiotics. after all they are guilty as sin too by your “logic”…. good grief….you are an idiot.”
Sorry, Soiled Linen, your analogy doesn’t fly. While it’s true most (or all) of these men were convicted before DNA testing was available, only 1 other jurisdiction in the entire U.S. is even close to Dallas’s error rate: 11 men convicted in Chicago have been exonerated, compared to 12 in Dallas. Since DNA-based innocence review began, 47 of the 50 states have had fewer proven wrongful convictions than Dallas County. Obviously something is wrong with the criminal justice system in that county, to have more errors than any of the thousands of other counties in America. If other jurisdictions could get it right, why couldn’t Dallas? They didn’t have DNA back then, either — but they didn’t produce errors like Dallas did.
95
I trust our own soldiers who say democrats supress military votes before I would believe the BBC.
And I would trust the BBC before I’d trust some anonymous meatstick parroting Rovian talking points. Especially one who couldn’t come up with a better screen name.
re 97: And only those soldiers who tell you what you want to hear. You are a disgrace.
99
Dems are a disgrace to the flag and to the US military. That is why soldiers vote republican at over 80%. Live with it, It is called the truth.
The Dead Democrats says:
99
Dems are a disgrace to the flag and to the US military. That is why soldiers vote republican at over 80%. Live with it, It is called the truth.
—————
Hey Dead Democrat, can you name one single thing the Republicans have done for our troops, other than send them to war against a non threatening nation, without proper body armor, or humvee protection? Remember the budget that cut funding for the head injury unit of the VA by half?
Everyone knows the GOP urinates on our troops, and only use them for political pawns. The problem the Republican are having right now, is the fact that the troops are starting to figure it out.
Maybe if you watched something other than Faux News, and listened to something other than Rush Lying Limbaugh, you may be exposed to reality.
By the way, there is no way to accurately learn how soldiers vote. The info is not available. I do remember one poll that found that over 80% of our soldiers thought we were in Iraq to pay Sadddam back for the roll he played in the 9-11 attacks……..
I feel sorry for these kids. They are obviously not getting the news……
By all accounts the troops in the field are starting to question why they are in Iraq, what they’re supposed to be doing there, and how long they’re going to have to stay. (These accounts come from places like AP and Stars and Stripes, so it’s kind of hard to say they were fabricated by the Left.) I don’t know how they’ve voted in the past, but I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts they’ll be voting for Democrats next year.
(Actually, I amend that. I’d be willing to bet they’ll vote for whoever they think will get them either out of that hell-hole they’re in right now, or give them a concerte mission and the tools to do it with. Guess which party doesn’t have a recent track record of doing that? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?)
re 100: It’s called something you pulled out of your ass. I know better. You are just an ideologue with an ax to grind.
The Dead Democrats spewed:
Why do we keep letting the wingnuts come out with bogus numbers and then debate the consequences of those numbers?
The statement is a bald-faced lie. It is true that the military tends to vote more conservatively than the rest of the country. Current support for the President among military members hovers right around 50% (per the most current Military Times poll), which is much higher than in the rest of the country.
But eighty percent? Only if you count every military member that has ever voted for any Republican.
By that standard, I would also fall into that category. (I voted for President Ford.)
Just because some wingnut armchair General comes up with a number doesn’t mean that the number has any basis whatsoever in fact.
Oh, and for the wingnut armchair General, most regular posters here know that I am retired Military, with over twenty years honorable service. You may want to check this at http://tinyurl.com/flelx before you embarass yourself further.
Oh, and “Dead Democrats”, even though you wingnuts seem to be trying to get prominent Democrats killed, (see http://tinyurl.com/yqz97j ) there are still a lot more of us than there are of you, and we now control the Congress. Two years from now, we will be in the White House as well.
I would actually prefer to see a balance of power between two honest parties where philosophical differences could be aired, discussed and debated. A “loyal opposition” is vital to a democracy, and a government divided between two honest parties seems (my opinion) to function best.
Anyone know where we can find an honest opposition party?
#104 Anyone know where we can find an honest opposition party?
It would be a crime to use the word honest, and Republican in the same sentence.
Their whole ideology is baded on lies, hate, and fear, and way too many people now understand this.
If you don’t believe me, I would love for a “conservative” to explain what a “conservatie” is these days, and to name one true conservative in D.C.
The scam started with Reagan’s trickle up plan has now been exposed to the light of day. All the work to undercut unions, hand power to Talibangelicals, and help the super rich, and large corporations keep more of their trillions is now known to be nothing more than a fraud.
Hi, Facts!
Actually, someone mentioned Ron Paul the other day. He’s actually considerting a run for President. I’m not sure the man has both oars in the water, but he seems honest enough. He’s certainly consistent and very conservative.
Of course, the Republicans hate him and have been trying to kick him out of the party for years. He just doesn’t fit in with most of them, as he actually seems to believe what he espouses, and tends to vote on principle rather than expediency.
I don’t like many of his votes, but I have to admire the man’s integrity.
One more tidbit. I’ve been watching the trends in the Democratic party, and it may turn out that we supply our own opposition.
Honest conservatives are leaving the Republican party in droves, as they simply find themselves unable to stomach the lies and hypocrisy they’ve seen in the Republican leadership.
While many of these folks are becoming independents and others are joining third parties, a lot of them are becoming Democrats. We’re starting to see a legitimate conservative (normally called “moderate”) wing in our party.
Remember, back before the neo-cons highjacked the term, “conservatives” were the folks in favor of smaller, less intrusive government, balance budgets and generally letting people live their lives without the government getting involved.
These were folks that had actually read George Orwell, and find the noises coming out of the current administration to be frighteningly similar to “war is peace” “freedom is slavery” and “big brother is watching you”.
If you (as I) read “1984” back in high school (more years ago than I want to admit to) you should re-read it, before the current adminstration classifies it.
It’s really frightening how close Mr. Orwell got, although he was off by twenty years.
Oh, one more Orwellian phrase that will sound frighteningly familiar to folks that have been watching the Republicans over the last few years.
“Ignorance is Strength”
It has been said that the current administration has stayed in power by playing to the fears of the citizens. That may well be true. They scare the hell out of me.
wow roger…hit a nerve, did i?
“Oh my, your racism is showing. He’s black, therefore he must be a criminal …”
you know rog that thought never even occured to ME…but it obviously did to you. interesting.
and you get even better……….
“I don’t see the relevance of your question, but in any event, I don’t even get parking tickets. How many jurisdictions are YOU wanted in? Is that why you fled to California from Washington? Is your house near the Mexican border?”
[and gee…if YOU aren’t one of goldy’s many made up ‘posters’ then why are you trying to slander me with the same brush he used on sharkansky??? try to be original at least…]
the relevance of the question is this: the average law abiding citizen is not only not arrested randomly, but hardly goes to prison for something they didn’t do. the rate at which that happens only goes way up when the person in question has a fairly long history of criminal activity. why don’t you check out these people’s backgrounds before you canonize them rog? chicken?
as for your other statements. HAH! typical silly liberal. you think if you say something it will stick. “fled washington?” are you kidding? i despise washington, always have…and brother, i am not alone in this sentiment. even the loons in arcata laugh about washington politics and “latte land”…to them you are all sell out yuppies…something i find terribly amusing.
and where is the mass exodus TO washington, hmmmmm?
my husband, unlike most of you progressive[ly] pushier know-it-alls from the east, is from an old and very respected washington family.he was homesick.then he saw what his home state had turned into and was more than happy for us to take our company and ourselves back to the land of sanity
near the border? what are you? simple? have you heard of geography? geez…you’d think that you would know how to look at a map.
near the mexican border? wanted for something? where do you get this crap?
as i have stated repeatedly i live in my HOME state of california on the lost coast.and ,somehow, i don’t think that people with security clearance are “wanted for something”….good grief.
when you can’t make a valid point you go for slander?
very telling mr. rabbit. that and the oh-so-stupid ‘nicknames’ you come up with…..
and “facts”…you are a bitter little man working for minimum wage right?
and all because YOU CHOSE to not go to college and graduate school and really do something with your life, right? and so all those “rich bastards” are rich and that’s why you aren’t? what? you think there is only one pie out there and if someone else has it that’s why you don’t?
where is the logic?
but if you really feel this way then you better stop voting for any democrats, don’t you think? do you have any idea how rich most of the people you vote for are? and how they got that way? i’ll give you a hint…they didn’t work for it…………
YO @ 59:
Man you are one jealous loser. It really does suck to be you and a conservative.
How’s the post election conservative cry fest going for you LOSERS!!
Need any purple Kleenex?
Loser.
BTW, answer my challenge at 27.