I didn’t really feel like doing much blogging today, so I started scanning Daily Kos, looking for a quick link to fill some space. It didn’t take me very long: UPDATE: It’s the Jews.”
That’s how close we are.
Watching Frist join the “religious persecution” bandwagon brings to mind the Nazis.
I’m sorry if some of you may think I’m overstating the case. But I see it all to clearly…
Hollywood is evil.
Hollywood? That’s the Jews.
The liberal media is evil.
The liberal media? That’s the Jews.
Folks, we are at a critical turning point in our nation’s history. Make no mistake about it.
Oh, I wish I could just leave it that, and spend the day tending my much neglected garden. But recent events have left me with a head full of dark thoughts, just aching to spill out through my fingertips and onto the screen. Yes, it would be counterproductive hyperbole to call the Republican leadership and their Dominionist backers “Nazis”… and I’m not sure if our nation is quite at the critical turning point that DKos diarist Bob Johnson fears.
But clearly, something is happening in America, reminiscent of the early days of McCarthyism, and we would be foolish to shy away from discussing it for fear of appearing alarmist or paranoid. Something is happening in America, that has given a strange confidence to mainstream politicians to publicly ape the hateful and divisive rhetoric of right-wing Christian extremism. Something is happening in America, where emboldened by Bush’s reelection, and inflamed by the Schiavo case, the Dominionist forces are suddenly willing to openly flex their theocratic ambitions.
It is thus ironic that respectable pundits and editorialists so cautiously and carefully avoid the use of the word “fascism” at the same time the ascendant political elite so callously embraces its tenets.
Still, I take issue with Johnson on one point: it is not the Jews, per se, for the antisemitism has always been there, lurking just beneath the surface. Antisemitism is not an end in itself, but rather the canary in the coal mine of political discourse… an early warning system that tells us that something is happening in America.
When Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist steps to the national pulpit and declares that Democrats are “against people of faith,” he gives aide, comfort, and political legitimacy to religious extremists who preach that people like me are less moral, less human, less worthy in the eyes of God than they. These are people with a devout, unshakeable faith that I am going to Hell (a subject I’ve also touched upon here, here, and here.) These are people who believe that their political opponents are doomed to burn in the eternal flames of Hell… so is it really so alarmist to wonder what stops them from preheating the oven here, in the Kingdom of God on earth?
Yes, something is happening in America, where even my non-Jewish friends nervously joke about their “exit strategy”… imagining what nation they might seek refuge in, should the worst case scenario occur at home. And that worst case scenario is not nearly as far-fetched as we might want to imagine.
A few months back, a former high-level Clinton administration official told me that it was the consensus of analysts he respected — people with higher security clearance than his — that some time over the next five to ten years, there is a fifty-fifty chance that a small nuclear device will be set off in a major American city. In its wake, he suggests that in exchange for a promise of increased security, the American people will be more than willing to surrender their civil liberties. And who can argue that the current administration wouldn’t be more than willing to take them?
Something is happening in America that sets the stage for something much worse… and now is the time to discuss it. Just like we should have imagined terrorists flying jetliners full of fuel and people into buildings, we must imagine an extreme right-wing — un-American and anti-Constitutional — seizing the reigns of government, imposing their theocratic dictatorship, and silencing the opposition through whatever means.
I’m not saying it is imminent. I’m not saying it is likely. But if the genocidal history of the 20th Century teaches us anything… it is possible.
Okay, this may sound like a dumb point….and i’ll most likely be labeled a dork for for bringing it up…but the hell with all of you! Haha!
An interesting, if not eerie parallel to what Goldy (and many Americans) see going on are the dramatically heightened stories of ‘Star Wars’ by George Lucas and 20th Century Fox. Now, stay with me…
1. We see a war secretly created by the executive branch (on both sides) in order to gain emergency powers from the Senate to create an army and declare war. With those powers, he also rolls back rights and freedoms of speech and other liberties “in the name of security” and takes further steps to consolidate and concentrate power to himself in a supposed democracy. The Chancellor further abuses his power by declaring himself Emperor, silencing dissent, and destroying the entire ‘checks and balances’ system. He makes certain religions ‘illegal’ (Jedi) and has them all killed by Darth Vader. And lastly, he destroys the Legislative system that raised him to power and made an ultimate dictatorship.
Okay, it’s a really far out analogy, because most of this hasn’t happened here in one sense of the word…yet. But if you know the comparisons you can see (and draw other possibilities) from this story. I’m not being paranoid, it’s just an interesting thought. America: The Book by Jon Stewart makes some of the same comparisons, and I thought that they were worth mentioning.
Goldy,
In its wake, he suggests that in exchange for a promise of increased security, the American people will be more than willing to surrender their civil liberties.
I would consider the other extreme, as well. What happens when the secular left gets control of our government again and this occurs? It is easy to see the possibility they would deem Islam subversive. What if there is a larger backlash against people of all faith? If that were to happen, a logical extension would be to deem all religion subversive. Since you are talking a nuke, the paranoia would be rampant. I can envision a change to the First Amendment happening quickly under such circumstances, after the martial law declaration.
Actually Goldy, I think the situation has more parallels to 1856 than 1932. Then, as now, the country was divided over economic and way-of-life issues. Then, as now, angry people were shouting past each other, having abandoned most semblances of reasoned discourse and all efforts at negotiation and compromise. Then, as now, there were two sides, each convinced it occupied the moral high ground and devoted to demonizing the other. Then, as now, people were openly thinking about separating themselves from those with whom they had disagreed by means of secession. Then, as now, zealots stirred the pot to a boil by resorting to actual violence. The pot boiled over on May 22, 1856, when anti-slavery Republican Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, after delivering an incendiary speech, was attacked and bludgeoned almost to death in the Senate chamber by southern pro-slavery Democratic Rep. Preston Brooks of South Carolina.
“Bleeding profusely, Sumner was carried away. Brooks walked calmly out of the chamber without being detained by the stunned onlookers. Overnight, both men became heroes in their respective regions. … The nation, suffering from the breakdown of reasoned discourse that this event symbolized, tumbled onward toward the catastrophe of civil war.”
http://www.senate.gov/artandhi.....Sumner.htm
The civil war became inevitable when, in October of the following year, 1859, the violent anti-slavery zealot John Bornw led an armed attack against the Federal arsenal at Harper’s Ferry, Virginia, for the purpose of securing arms with which to free the South’s slaves, pushing the divisions and fears past the point of no return.
Last week, a Republican congressman and a Republican U.S. Senator made incendiary remarks that implied to their right-wing following — a group that includes violent zealots who have bombed and murdered — that federal judges whose rulings they found offensive should be murdered.
How much more incendiary rhetoric, what specific acts of violence would it take, to push America into Civil War II? Nobody knows. But if we use history as a guide, we may indeed be standing on the precipice, or close to it.
* Chardonnay TIC is a 50% owned tenancy-in-common operated as an offshore subsidiary of Alan d/b/a Dubyasux NLSP.
Jeffw, the analogy fits because the Star Wars story was based on events that have happened in world history. Anyway, what good are lessons learned from WWII Nazi Germany if we allow conservatives to restrict this subject from the debate? Waiting to deal with this problem until after our Democracy has already been destroyed is like trying to cure cancer on a corpse.
Goldy, I think if a nuclear weapon (even a small one) is exploded in a U.S. city all bets are off. Our political system won’t survive that. The 9/11 attacks knocked down two buildings, damaged a third, and killed about 2,800 Americans — yet produced a large political aftershock, causing about half of our citizens to give the administration whose negligence produced the disaster virtually a blank check to attack other countries (whether they were involved our not), wage war and engage in torture, significantly curtail civil liberties, and vastly expand governmental powers of search, seizure, arrest, and detention (although this expansion has not yet reached the dictatorial powers given — and exercised — by Lincoln during Civil War I). The political effects (not to mention the economic effects) of a nuclear disaster that destroyed hundreds of buildings and killed tens of thousands of people would be immeasurably greater. It would be the greatest trauma in the nation’s history by far, and we should have no illusions that the terrified common people would turn to a dictator to lead them. Nor should we have any expectations of national unity; the fingers would point, zealots would screech the word “traitors” from the rooftops, and the nation’s current divisive political and social climate would descend into disunity, witch hunts, civil war, and perhaps utter chaos.
* Mr. Cynical TIC is a 50% owned tenancy-in-common operated as an offshore subsidiary of Alan d/b/a Dubyasux NLSP.
Whoever you are @ 5
You and Goldy are being a lot too paranoid and pessimistic here. Look at the statments you are making, such as “the terrified common people would turn to a dictator to lead them” and all the ranting about zealots. You are forgetting that the young people of today are far better educated than we were 40 or more years ago, and this education includes a lot of tolerance, diversity, etc. They are day to day living in diversity in the public schools and universities, what makes you think they would transform into bigots or zealots?
Goldy’s paranoia aside, there are optimistic trolls among you who believe exactly the opposite scenario. I believe that the result of all the diversity and tolerance that our youth are learning and experiencing as a part of their day to day lives will help wipe out bigotry. If the lefties would quit calling all Republicans “religious zealots” it would certainly help in this regard. And if the Democrats would quit whining about all the “intolerance and discrimination” out there, (completely ignoring the fact that unbelievable prgress has been made in 50 years) the situation would be improved.
Implying that the Republican leadership are anti-semitic and saying that they are inciting murder of judges is way over the top here guys. Instead of passing along Kos’s paranoid ranting, how about if Don (I know you’re up there somewhere) and Goldy would just take the conciliatory step of admitting that bigotry and discrimination in the US today are light years improved over 50 years ago. Then you can actually be healing a rift instead of exacerbating one.
marks@2
would consider the other extreme, as well. What happens when the secular left gets control of our government again and this occurs?
If the government IS secular, as it was set up to be, then all religion is treated equally. That is, all are free to worship in their own way and no one religion is given preference. That’s our law. When government is secular it’s BETTER for religion and BETTER for government.
zip @ 6
Don, Alan, Bob E., or whatever — it doesn’t matter what you call me. What matters is you don’t know my real name, and that’s the way it’ll continue to be.
Dubyasux
Zip…bigotry and discrimination in the US today are light years improved over 50 years ago. There you have it, and from a bona fide liberal. What we don’t know is how much of the apparent reduction in bigotry is real. Fifty years ago there wasn’t much disapprobation leveled at anyone using the language bigots use. That changed. National leaders and an enlightened media made the use of such terms discouraged. If there is a flicker of a flame of bigotry left in the nation’s collective breast, an event like the mentioned nuclear detonation could bring it into the open.
What isn’t new in our history but what has resurfaced with (perhaps) a vengeance is religious zealotry. Combine this with the above and things could get nasty. I think the scenario is unlikely; I’d say rather than being alarmed I’m a little uneasy.
Now, about that unbelievable progress. Is there a conservative out there who will acknowledge that affirmative action has been a great success? (you can do so and add a disclaimer about its usefulness having run its course, if it will ease the admission).
Carla
Government is secular. You guys are so paranoid I can’t believe it.
Here are some quotes from Kos site comments. Any one of you lefties agreeing with these loonies is a paranoid nut case:
“Lest every one forget, the repugs are already anti-Semites because they hate Arabs”
“But their avowed love of Jews (look at e.g. Wolfowitz) is tantamount to their love of blacks (Clarence Thomas!) and hispanics (“Abu Gonzales!”). I.e. window dressing; a fig leaf.”
“You can’t tell the crazies (who say they’re “pro-Jewish” and silently tack on “and also all Jews have to be dead or converted before THE LORD will come down from Heaven and make with the ending of all life on earth, a day whose arrival I pray for constantly.””
“They love Israel only because Christ is going to return there.”
“White trash has got to feel better than somebody.”
“I fear that “trial lawyers” is another euphemism for Jews, as in Jewish lawyers, as in shysters.”
RDC
Affirmative action was a success and worthwhile until about the mid 80’s. Today it has no connection to correcting past racism.
Zip…we’re drifting OT, but as a last comment I’d say that you are off by about 10 years, and I’d change no connection to little connection. Of course, affirmative action covers women, national origin, and the handicapped in addition to race. But thanks for the admission. What would make the most sense is to forget all the categories and focus on the impoverished.
I personally think Goldy is overly concerned about where Republicans are taking the country. They want some things for themselves, and they don’t want to deal with critics, as shown by their tendency to dodge the legitimate press and throw critics out of their political events. Republicans have been out of power for so long they don’t know how to handle power, and are making many blunders and missteps. But so far as we know, the Patriot Act has not been used to spy on or round up the political opposition on a wholesale basis, nor has the IRS been used to harass opponents and critics. I think they have limited political aims, and some of them (e.g. DeLay and Frist) have big mouths, and the problem we face is not fundamentally deeper than human foible. There are some true haters on the Far Right (like Falwell) plus some caustics (like Coulter, who is in it for the money) whose presence on the public stage is unhealthy for society, and then you have the scary fringies like the militias and white supremacists, and violent fringies like the abortion bombers, perpetrators of hate crimes, eco-terrorists, and anarchists — but society has always had a motley collection of these lunatics, whose political orientation is less important than their sociopathy.
But an external nuclear attack on a U.S. city is a different story altogether. Visualize the heart of any major city physically gutted, and thousands of people suddenly removed from the nation’s systems of communication, finance, and commerce. You get chaos beyond what existing political or social institutions can cope with. You get millions of people suddenly infused with unmeasurable anger, uncontrollable blood lust, and uncontainable thirst for retribution. In the current partisan climate, it seems almost inevitable that instead of Americans joining together to go over the enemy, they would very likely start pointing the fingers of blame at each other — and then, in that emotionally supercharged environment, and with institutions, governmental power, and law enforcement severely weakened in the aftermath of the mushroom cloud — the guns will come out of the woodwork and bloody chaos will ensue.
No, I don’t think our political system, economy, or society would survive a nuclear attack. There would be tremendous turmoil, followed by something new and different that is very hard to predict or foresee. But it certainly would be less democratic and less tolerant than what we have now.
Our enemies know this, and know that a post-nuclear-attack America would be a country gripped by a terrible thirst for vengeance, but would also be a terribly weakened country on the world stage; and balancing those two things, the temptation to detonate a nuclear weapon on American soil may well be irresistable to those who want to eliminate or vastly reduce American power in their parts of the world.
oh my. paranoia. clinton tried so hard to cram a very bad deal down Barach’s throat that the Israeli’s only gave Barach 17% of the vote. Bush has stood by Israel so much it raises the hackles of Palestinian’s and Muslim’s. Bush has been good to and for Israel. is it not Jewish anymore ?
P.S. Goldy: that stuff you grow in your garden is some very bad weed. maybe you need BC bud…
You liberals are tremendously ignorant. I am not just saying that to throw stones (But that is always a fun thing to do). Again I am trying to educate you. You must walk the talk on national defense. Hillary’s last minute conversion to being a moderate won’t get her the presedency in 2008. And Howard Dean hasn’t even made an attempt to moderate his tongue. He think he is going to win over red state people by calling them names. What names you ask? Oh, those little remars about Republicans and needing to include the servants to get enough black in a room. There hasn’t been a Democrat that would actually defend America since JFK. That and the fact that you look down your noses at anyone who dares to agree with you as uneducated and rednecks. Then you wonder why no one wants to sit down and discuss things with you.
But never mind me, I am just a troll…right?
I think there is conclusive proof that your liberal conspiracy fantasies are becoming reality – Ann Coulter is on the cover of TIME magazine.
Ann Coulter is on the cover of TIME magazine.
drag queen week?
Ann Coulter on Time. Big Deal Adolf Hitler and Gerge Bush were Time Man of the Year at one point or another, talk about your SI jinx. Hope I get to pull her feeding tube.
Jeffw @1
What a dork (consider yourself labeled)….Star wars is so passe, you need to see the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.
Have a good night.
I hate to tell you, but either side of the aisle these days could pull off this stunt. I believe McCarthy was right, but no one listened to him and now we have rabid communists in all of our schools, churches and in our every film and TV series–trying to decay our morals and destroy our society. Did they not say they would take over without firing a shot and that we ourselves would raise their banner over our own country? Look around. The real problem is that they say , I am no devil’ and we are dumb enough to believe it. We get what we deserve–Manchurian Candidate and all.
Jeff @ 1–read the bible and it foretells approximately the same thing–add me to your dork squad, I guess. I don’t care either. It is far easier to label the messenger than to reflect on the message.
sybil @ 3, 5
does your wife know you are not under the piano? you are becoming a liability to her.
Carla said–“If the government IS secular, as it was set up to be, then all religion is treated equally. That is, all are free to worship in their own way and no one religion is given preference.” It would be nice if that were true. Unfortunately history seems to disagree. The tendency is that when religious men are in power there is more concern for religious protection than when atheistic dictatorships are in power. Look at Russia, look at China and North Korea. There are many others. Is there religious bigotry? Sure–Islamic nations come to mind. Again, we are light years ahead of the rest of the world and the hate America first crowd needs to visit a few places around the world before they speak to harshly about their rights here. Having said that, there is always room for improvement.
Another great post Goldy.
If you need another bit of evidence as to the direction this country may be headed thanks to the Republican leadership, here’s an AP story from earlier today on Ted Nugent, who followed Tom DeLay to the stage at the NRA convention. It’s totally scary, because there’s nothing to indicate that anybody hearing this at that venue questioned what Nugent was saying. Pay particular attention to the last paragraph. Here’s the story:
“HOUSTON – With an assault weapon in each hand, rocker and gun rights advocate Ted Nugent urged National Rifle Association members to be “hardcore, radical extremists demanding the right to self defense.”
Speaking at the NRA’s annual convention Saturday, Nugent said each NRA member should try to enroll 10 new members over the next year and associate only with other members.
“Let’s next year sit here and say, ‘Holy smokes, the NRA has 40 million members now,'” he said. “No one is allowed at our barbecues unless they are an NRA member. Do that in your life.”
Nugent sang and played a guitar painted with red and white stripes for the crowd at Houston’s downtown convention center.
He drew the most cheers when he told gun owners they should never give up their right to bear arms and should use their guns to protect themselves if needed.
“Remember the Alamo! Shoot ’em!” he screamed to applause. “To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want ’em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot ’em.”
RDC @ 9–Affirmative action was menat to do a good deed, but there is nothing more hated and scary than professional good-deed-doers. The phrase “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” comes to mind. What affirmative action became is a quota system that required the hring of the less-qualified over the more qualified and became a reverse discrimination. I hate to start an argument, but you end up with a lot of Ron Sims types unless you balance it out and use common sense and fairness–REAL fairness.
Ann Coulter is on the cover of TIME magazine.
drag queen week?
I’m cancelling my subscription. Ann Coulter has the right to say what she wants, but TIME is better than this. One of the biggest motivators for me to start blogging is because I read Mein Kampf last year and realized I was reading an Ann Coulter book. Hitler’s rise to power came from a belief that pacifists, the press, minorities, and the entertainment industry (in Mein Kampf, he wrote of the immorality of Jew-controlled theatre groups, strange that…) were betraying the German nation. No one should be ashamed to point out the striking similarities to the crap we hear from Ann Coulter. In Germany, no one thought it could happen, but it did. That’s why it’s foolish to look around at what’s happening and not at least concede that it could here as well.
Lest anyone think I may have made that story up, here’s the link to the actual AP dispatch:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp.....;printer=1
VCRW @ 15
Yes, you’re a troll, and full of shit to boot. What do you mean by walking the talk? I walked the ground in Vietnam, is that enough walking for you? Or do I have to beat the drum to meet your definition of a patriot? War is unmitigated evil, and the trick is to know when it’s necessary and when not. Anyone so shallow as to blindly follow the beating drums, asking no questions and impugning those who do, is not a patriot but merely a damned fool.
Doo, do do doo.
Doo do do doo.
You have now entered the Liberal Twilight Zone – a new dimension of paranoia, negativity, hate peddling and fear mongering.
Doo, do do doo.
Doo do do doo.
Nelson, I can’t say I agree with Nugents choice of words, but I do understand the sentiment. If we could find the cohones to go back to what worked and keep our kids from growing up thinking anything goes if it feels good, then maybe there would be no desire to speak as he did. But the world is an ugly place and getting uglier by the minute beccause we are told we must be more tolerant–“they can’t help it–they were victims of society, they had bad parents, they didn’t get their way when they fussed, etc.” It is time to grow up as a nation and make hard choices. If we don’t learn to govern ourselves, then someone will do it for us. None of us want that, do we?
I hate to start an argument, but you end up with a lot of Ron Sims types unless you balance it out and use common sense and fairness–REAL fairness.
Yeah those elections he won through affirmative action really gave him that boost he needed over those white guys who were capable of the job.
Jackass.
thehim @ 26–Okay, so we agree that it can come from both sides of the aisle? What do we do about it–fight amongst ourselves or get down to brass tacks and decide who we need to vote into office and who we castrate (politically speaking)?
Nelson @ 27
I am definitely in favor of unfettered gun rights at Ted Nugent concerts! They should use guns instead of Bic lighters to call for an encore.
Ann Coulter is a horror show. She doesn’t compare with Hitler. Not even our resident bigot Pet Poop/Ass could get through one chapter of any of her books.
I don’t see her books having more influence on people than generating nervous giggles. Then again I hope for all our sakes that I’m not wrong.
dj @33
I think you have a good point…
whistler @ 20
Did someone mention paranoia?
Dubyasux @ 28
You da man!
VCRW
I’m curious about what would you have us do? Go to the right of Bush on defense? That reminds me of Netanyahu in Israel trying to go to the right of Sharon. It’s absurd. It’s just not frickin’ possible.
I’m sorry you’re just going to have to be satisfied with this: almost every liberal (99.99%) supports an effective defense against existential threats like terrorism and yes, an effective offense as well.
whistler @ 25
“there is nothing more hated and scary than professional good-deed-doers”
I saw on ABC News tonight a clip of a Michigan militia leader who offered to send several hundred armed men to Terri Schiavo’s hospice to “rescue” her. Is that who you’re referring to?
Goldy – From where I am standing, the bias against the “liberal media” has nothing to do with anti-semitism. People of faith feel very strongly about certain issues such as abortion, same-sex relationships, murder, adultery, and the list goes on. When companies try to make money pushing an agenda that is antithetical to those values, people of faith get upset, boycott companies, and hopefully effect change with their economic vote.
I won’t try to argue how many ways the article and the related postings are wrong. Instead, I think that a reminder of what we have fought to overcome is more appropo.
http://www.ushmm.org/
May we never forget.
Well, I hope you just keep on enjoying your little snide remark party. In the end that is all you will have. You will not have converted anyone to your side or made any new friends. You will not have shown the light to some poor republican that needs to be set straight. No, all you will have done is vent. Maybe that is all you want. I hoped to change that and actually discuss things, but you want to insult me for trying. Go ahead, if it makes you more of a man. Personally I think it demeans you, not me. pjgee is at least trying to meet me halfway–and isn’t that what it is all about? “There is no harmony when all are singing the same note.” There is also no harmony when all is dissonance and noise. Which are you wanting to be? Maybe we “can al;l just get along” if we actually care to solve some issues and see what we can agree on. Is that too wimpy or maudlin for you? Are there any others who feel as I do? Make your voices heard and reign in your dogs–I will do the same from my side.
STW @ 40
We mix it up in here. We’d hate to lose you but you have to expect us to challenge you on one or two points.
I’ve read the previous threads and you’re definitely a reasonable guy like the two Marks and Zip (on occassion). Your comments contain a few zingers in my book and if I’m in the frame of mind I may challenge you on them. Again, you have to expect that.
We’re under constant attack from obssessed righties here. Goldy’s postings provoke them. We have to punch back. It’s that simple.
However, occassionally, some good exchanges come out of it. You just have to have the patience of Job unfortunately.
Okay guys… enough of the screen name stealing… even as an obvious joke. We are already on the precipice of a an entirely useless debate.
Whistler
I hate to tell you, but either side of the aisle these days could pull off this stunt. I believe McCarthy was right, but no one listened to him and now we have rabid communists in all of our schools, churches and in our every film and TV series–trying to decay our morals and destroy our society
When you make comments like these, you deserve to be called names, but I read back on the thread and saw very little personal attack on you, and if you look where most of the personal attacks are coming from, you might see why we respond.
We are constantly called communists on here, so I must ask you for your definition. You see people who are concerned for the less fortunate, as your Bible tells you to do over 1200 times versus the 3 times it mentions Homosexuality. We have a shared belief that if you break the cycle of poverty, that this will effect us ALL for the better. Lower crime rates, drug use and sales, fewer abortions, more people who can actually afford the goods and services that make our economy grow, better opportunity for people to get higher education and thus improve our work force. Under the Clinton Administration the Abortion rate was lower than it is now. Crime was lower, worldwide terroism hit an all time high this year, Pell grants were greater and our economy was not owned by the Chinese.
So If us Clinton Democrats are your definition of Communists, then fine.
But when you mention that one of the most despised men in our history, who ruined countless lives for his own political power. including going after the Jews in Hollywood. You are just an ignorant soul.
You talk about decay of our Morals…whose Morals? are your morals better then mine? what about the guy who mows his lawn on Sunday? are his morals to be questioned next? where are you going to draw the line. everything is not black and white in this world. as some posters would like you to believe.
Be more afraid that your churches, teachers, TV and movies only teach your children, that if you disagree with the government your wrong and should be sent away. then what you perceive to be a communist revolution.
Sorry only the first Paragragh meant to be italics. Hey Goldy when is that damn preview button comming…you sas a frassen numbskull.
“Nazi” is a word we need to avoid. It just gets slung about too much by those with week arguments. But the case for “Fascism” is undeniable (at least by those who understand fascism, and are aware of current events in the good ol’ USA). Something is happening. And it is very, very BAD. But I think-hope we can change that. But it really has to happen in 2006. If we let the neo-con brown shirts steal power again on 2006, we may never be able to save the republic. Checks and balances ore out the window.
Whistling out your ear @ 201 Open thread
There is no thanks for the Christian men who founded this nation and even gave their lives and fortunes to do so–did you know MOST of the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were ministers?
You know I never new that about our Declaration of Independence. obviousley neither did you.
I went and looked at the names and proffesions of All 56, I thought I would take a quick glance until I found a few who WERE ministers…darn you if I didn’t have to get all the way to the “w”s to fine the ONLY ONE. John Witherspoon of New Jersey.
This is the type of stuff that you hear crammed down your throat by the right all the time, with no facts, but sounds good to make a point….this is why we are weary and afraid of the media people like Fox, they have now shame in doing what you just did.
So please when your gonna make shit up, at least have it on a right wing website, not in the Smithsonain. (Unless you just want to rewrite history, and give that much needed sainthood to those mostly lawyers, merchants and farmers)
Sorry here is the link to the declaration signers
http://www.ushistory.org/decla...../index.htm
I don’t know what you mean by “got all the way to W” as they are not in alphabetical order in any way, shape or form, but I am going through the info you provided and will respond–whether I am right or wrong, okay? I think truth is important and if I have been misled I will stand corrected. I don’t want questions about my character. I hope you feel the same about yours.
Perhaps they were not ministers, pastors or priests but all were affiliated with a religion.
Did you know that 52 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.
It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.
Donnageddon @45,
I agree, and nobody is reasonably arguing that Frist and Delay and the others are Nazis. (Though we shouldn’t be afraid to make comparisons to Nazi Germany.)
My whole point in this post, and my prior efforts to exercise the word “fascism,” is to start the discussion now. Even if there was no possibility of a fascist dictatorship in the U.S., we need to beware of these proto-fascist elements creeping into the mainstream. We should not be afraid of using the word… but must use it accurately.
Dan @ 43
“We are constantly called communists on here, so I must ask you for your definition. You see people who are concerned for the less fortunate [as are most conservatives I know–we just don’t want to deprive them of the pride of some self-sufficiency), as your Bible tells you to do over 1200 times (how did you get this figure?) versus the 3 times (it may be more than that, but this is certainly no indicator of importance–murder is mentioned less than 1200 times, I would guess) it mentions Homosexuality. We have a shared belief that if you break the cycle of poverty, that this will effect us ALL for the better (Then teach a man to fish, don’t fish for him–teach him to invest his savings, start a business, etc). Lower crime rates (stupid laws cause some of that–ref.:the LA riots, where a man stood with a rifle on his store roof to prevent it being burned, never firing a shot, but when the cops took him away for having it, it was burned immediately. Everyone Knows Rodney King, but the whole tape was never shown–the white guy who was dragged from a truck and kicked till he was brain damaged was shown over and over also and the man who did it was never prosecuted to my knowledge–or even looked for–is this bigotry in reverse? Affirmative action, maybe? Just plain caring?), drug use and sales (There was less drunkenness before prohibition, as everyone could see the town drunk and learn a lesson–make something taboo and everyone wants it), fewer abortions (and laws that would make it murder to do one–partial birth? Why not partial murder, then?), more people who can actually afford the goods and services that make our economy grow, better opportunity for people to get higher education and thus improve our work force. Under the Clinton Administration the Abortion rate was lower than it is now (source? It is hard to stop the ball rolling once it is going downhill). Crime was lower (maybe so, but there is a growth curve on ANY trend, even those that started 10-30 years ago), worldwide terrorism hit an all time high this year (and so did anti-terrorism efforts), Pell grants were greater and our economy was not owned by the Chinese (this president did not trade nuclear secrets for camapaign contributions).
So If us Clinton Democrats are your definition of Communists, then fine. (Not all of them, nor all of their beliefs. Check into the name Cecil Rhodes and thoe purpose of his scholarships. Also look up the only name Bill Clinton dropped in his acceptance speech and think the intended message was–Dr. Carol Quigley–find his book tragedy and hope and realize he was trained at the hand of Cecil Rhodes, an avowed Communist. Also note that a recent radio program featured an ex-SDS leader from the 60’s who says it was assuredly a communist organization and ALL of their goals are being accomplished here–most already done. That should tell you something. I do think Hillary is unabashedly a Marxist and is dangerous. She wants to have such control that you would need to go to a doctor to get vitamin C. It doesn’t take much research to know that. Despite her camouflage and chameleon-like changes to the center or even the right lately –note that the major papers never ask if that is for real as they know it isn’t. I don’t think you are all communists, but I think some have been duped, as have some fascists. Anything to the extreme can be dangerous. But we need some common ground somewhere if we are ever to fix this. Are you with me?
But when you mention that one of the most despised men in our history, who ruined countless lives for his own political power. including going after the Jews in Hollywood. You are just an ignorant soul. (Yes, he was despised, but so was Lincoln in his day, Clinton in his, etc. This alone does not make a man wrong. Was he correct in his methods? Maybe not, but what always puzzled me as I watched the films was this–why don’t these people just say ‘I am not now a communist, I have never been a communist, nor do I ever intend to be a communist”. How simple would that be compared to the hours of harrassment they endured [caused?]. What possible reason could they have to refuse to say so? Several things come to mind and only one a good reason. 1. On general principles and for the good of the people, they plead the fifth. I might believe this if Hollywood had a reputation for anything but self-interest from the start. It was always this way, just better concealed back then–not so proud to be deviant. 2. They actually were communist and proud to fight the fight. 3. They were not communists, but the industry was and would blackball them if they denied it. I am sure we could go on, but the choice and speculation are yours as much as mine. ) [I might mention also that one of the top communist propaganda writers recently defected and said things like this–John Kerry and congress spoke almost word for word the very propaganda he had written himself. Also, a recently declassified Russian document exposed the fact that McCarthy’s claims were 100% correct, regardless of his methods. Too bad we threw the baby out with the bathwater again. We could have avoided a lot of what we are wading through today.]
You talk about decay of our Morals…whose Morals? (Gods’ morals–what really works and makes a man happy. I have no copyright on that, nor do you. The label religion is enough to keep many from trying what would improve their lives–I know this from personal experience and will explain another time if you wish) are your morals better then mine?(Your morals could be better than mine if they are in accordance with what God has in mind for mankind–what WORKS. The same could be said the other way. It is up to each man or woman to seek his will and adjust in compliance. This is not slavery, but freedom. I know that now) what about the guy who mows his lawn on Sunday? are his morals to be questioned next? where are you going to draw the line. (I don’t — he does. All of us must make those decisions ourselves, as you know. He might do harm by example if he influeneces a child to stop attending church. It becomes just another day then. Life is a test.) everything is not black and white in this world (thanks to the blurring efforts of the media, you could say–there is far more black and white than they want you to know. You have to be willing to admit it when you see it and you have to look a bit harder to find it, thanks to the ‘tolerance’ of anything that comes down the pike) as some posters would like you to believe.
Be more afraid that your churches, teachers, TV and movies only teach your children, that if you disagree with the government your wrong and should be sent away. then what you perceive to be a communist revolution. (I am afraid of ANY institution that teaches that, but just because you call a communist movement by a more easily accepted euphemism does not change the nature of the beast–to paraphrase–‘a skunk by any other name….”. What we need today is mena and women who want truth regardless of what it might do their their personal orientation of the moment. They need to be willing to sacrifice opinion in favor of truth if they want to be true progressives. The cliche that the truth will set you free is a cliche for a good reason–it is true. Free from ignorance, free from wrong choices and needless worries, etc. It could also be alarming to wake up and find that those are not flowers you are hip deep in, but alligators.
Dan @ 46
“…media people like Fox, they have no shame in doing what you just did.” Any mistake I have made was unintentional and I readily apologize for it. I am not so naive as to believe that I can make no mistakes or that I was taught something that is wrong. Having said that, the truth being important to me (I often forget to check sources, as we all do in the heat of the moment): in fairness, let’s observe that Dan Rather (“It may be a fake, but I still believe it”) has never worked for Fox — and the CBS (See BS?) photographer who just ‘happened’ to be onsite during a terrorist bombing was found to have traces of explosive residue on himself. Was he a right-wing Fox man? I think there is no corner on the ‘no-shame’ market on EITHER side, okay? What I hope is that we can meet halfway and fix that. We are all Americans and should all want the truth from our media and our leaders, who often forget they are public servants first. We need to stop our infighting long enough to hold them accountable in some meaningful way–teach them a lesson in humility, if nothing else. Can you agree?
“…at least have it on a right wing website,”–I fear that anything you might disagree with, whether correct or not, would be a right-wing source. I know personally that the truth is often heard to find and when found it may be hard to accept, but it is still the truth and can set things straight. I vowed long ago not to just bury my head in the sand and pretend all was wonderful. When you bury your head you leave your backside exposed for someone to firmly kick and blame it on whatever they feel like at the moment.
Donnageddon @ 45–I worry that the backlash you speak of inciting is no better than the right-wing version of it. It is then just a civil war (oxymoron–nothing civil about it, really). We need to agree to elect men who will do what is right and use correct methods to decide their course. Where do we begin to agree? Can we agree on a republican form of government (no panic, please–it just means that LAW is supreme, even if 99% of the people want to do another thing. Democracy is legalized mob rule, by comaparison–whatever the wind brings in at the moment.) We need to do some defining here if we want to be constructive. Here is you rchance to do what you say Stefan is not doing. Are you up to the challenge? Let’s form our own little decllaration signing here and actually cooperate, if we can. What do you think? Can we define what we want and how to achieve it in harmony?
Char, thanks for correcting me, also.
Goldy sez: “My whole point in this post, and my prior efforts to exercise the word “fascism,” is to start the discussion now.”
You can’t use the word “fascism” and expect a ‘discussion’, and the most of the comments thus far proves that point.
Goldy, rewind yourself ten years or so and you sound like something out a militia recruitment campaign hyping the dangers of Clinton.
Again, I use the following, which certainly has explained politics in the last 15 years: “The party in power is arrogant and smug. The party of power is insane.”
Whoops, I need to quote better. “The party in power is arrogant and smug. The party of out power is insane.”
I’m sorry, but this blog topic is just pathetic.
Comparing either part to the Nazi’s makes you sound childish.
Saying that anti-semitism happens today (with the exception of a very small margin of instances) in America is just plain ignorant.
Dubya@28,
Firstly, thank you for your service – from one veteran to another. Hopefully when you returned, no one spat one you and called you a baby killer. Unlike liberals, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not commit attrocities while in Vietnam – though John Kerry would have us believe that all of you did.
Secondly, I think your knickers are too tight. If you think that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton had strong national defense policies, you are just stupid or ignorant.
Perhaps if Carter hadn’t gutted the military, their copters wouldn’t have crashed when they attempted a rescue of the hostages. Funny thing that when Reagan got in, the Mullah’s decided to let them go within days. Enemies can smell weakness. That is why the Soviets decided to grab for Afghanistan during Carters presidency – they knew he was a pussy.
Then we have William Jefferson Clinton. His response to the 93 twin tower bombing was to do nothing. Somalia, Khobar Towers, African Embassies and the USS Cole. His response was to lob a few million dollar missiles and hit a camel in the butt. Oh, he did destroy an baby food factory – that sure showed the terrorists. Sudan even offered to hand over Bin Laden but poor litle Bill Clinton was too busy with other things to pick him up. 911 was planned and the groundwork layed during Clinton’s presidency. At every turn, Clinton demonstrated to Bin Laden that America was weak and did not have the will to fight. The sucesses Clinton handed Bin Ladan bolstered Bin Laden to carry out 911. Yeah, it did happen under Bush. Bush’s problem was he believed all the hype about Richard Clarke being some sort of terrorism expert. He was nothing of the sort. While Clarke was looking for cyber hackers, Bin Laden was planning to crash planes into the WTC.
So, almost four years after 911, how many more 767’s have crashed into sky scrapers?
It is interesting to note that liberals never protested Clinton’s illegal war in Kosovo or his other Wag the Dog distractions. Perhaps you are just bitter about Vietnam – the Democrat war. Perhap you have reason to be, I don’t know. But Vietnam is not the only lesson of history. World War II is also a lesson.
I agree with @ 3 and @ 4 I lived through the McCarthy era but can only read of earlier events…the symptoms now however are eerily similar to readings and what I actually eperienced.
zip @ 6 part of the problem is that folks today live entirely to much day to day and forget too easily lessons of history.
John @ 41 poses my stance on the site nicely…thank you.
chardonnay @ 49 50 what our founders did was try to formulate a place where they and anyone else would be allowed to practice their personal religion without fear of government interention Study the Church of England.
prr @ 56 Why is the word Nazi so avoided? Or facism? Or liberal or neo-con? They represent movements trains of thought not actual deeds don’t they?
G Davis: “prr @ 56 Why is the word Nazi so avoided? Or facism? Or liberal or neo-con? They represent movements trains of thought not actual deeds don’t they?”
To me, there is a big, big difference between labels such as “liberal” or “neo-con” than “Nazi” or “Communist”. Liberals and neo-cons aren’t responsible for the murder and oppression of millions, although, as I write this, I get the feeling somebody is going to argue the point.
Goldy:“…we must imagine an extreme right-wing – un-American and anti-Constitutional – seizing the reigns of government, imposing their theocratic dictatorship, and silencing the opposition through whatever means.”
Please go re-read your “I love America” post, try to put yourself on the other side, and then try to rethink this quote. You certainly don’t like it when the right paints you as a American-hating looney, so please don’t be guilty of the same ignorance.
For those who might not believe retoric of a nuclear attack or any other threat, heres some light reading from the homeland Security Council…
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....-jul04.htm
If you examine the top 5 scenarios, any of of them could amount to a catalist that could begin reactionary agression. 9/11 showed us (and them) that they CAN effectivly hurt all of us…1st time, shame on them. 2nd time, shame on US! It could be our undoing IF lessions from our past (example @3…nicely put) are ignored.The brief but powerful uniformity that existed in the house and senate seems to be negated to such an extent that common civility
seems to be eroding. Whats next?
For those who preach the mantra “we’ll never forget”, what exactly are you remembering? Is it a)the attack, b)those lost or c) the national brotherhood. I pray all 3, but It seems to me our enemies have done a incredible job of pitting each other against ourseles. We’re doing more damage than they could have hoped for. By driving this wegde deeper, allowing the hate and distrust to fester, we’re allowing a disease to eat at the heart of our country. A disease not even the HSC has invisioned.
Makes me wonder what a real leader, like and of the founding fathers, would have to say?
and I’m not sure if our nation is quite at the critical turning point that DKos diarist Bob Johnson fears.
The problem now showing intolerant nationalism is that any discussion or dissent is seen as unpatriotic by the right. Any meaningful civilian control of the military is becoming increasingly at risk.
The political and cultural ascendance of the religious right in this country produces a sad irony: as we try to obliterate what is left of the Taliban in Afghanistan, we enshrine a domestic Taliban here. Christ instructed us to go into a quiet room to pray alone, shutting the door behind us. Why do our right-wingers insist on public prayer, conducted at high volume? The easy answer is that it’s all about politics, and seizing power, and not about religion.
59, more or less, and perhaps some other posts too
The problem is this: We have only one society, and we all have to live in it. Evangelicals and conservatives feel they’ve been forced to live in a culture created by liberals that impinges on beliefs they cherish, and want to remake the culture in ways that liberals feel will impinge on rights they cherish. The situation is further complicated by clashing pragmatic interests.
Our political institutions were designed with a strong bias toward settling differences by mediation, which is voluntary and implies negotiation, compromise, and accomodation; but when government is controlled by one party you are more likely to get arbitration, which is compulsory and implies winners and losers. This is, of course, a continuum and the pointer can slide back and forth along the mediation-arbitration scale. Our nation’s political history has included periods of both mediation and arbitration, and we seem to be in a rather strongly arbitrative cycle right now.
The cure for political hyperventilation is for Republicans to lose a house in Congress and Democrats to lose a house in the Legislature, so that nobody is completely “out,” everyone has a seat at the table, and both sides are forced to give and take. This is something I instinctively, if not overtly, understood long ago and in the past I frequently voted for a presidential candidate of one party and congressional candidates of the other party, hoping they would to some extent cancel each other out.
What I think the country needs most right now is for the Republicans to lose about 30 House seats in 2006, or if they retain the House and Senate, to lose the White House in 2008 to restore party and ideological balance to our national government. If that happened, I would be willing to give up a house in the state legislature to restore party and ideological balance to our state government.
Any takers on the Republican side?
“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, ‘What should be the reward of such sacrifices?’ Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship, and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!” –Samuel Adams
http://www.endglobalterror.org.....patton.htm
So what happens when technology tells the truth? :
Decoded at last: the ‘classical holy grail’ that may rewrite the history of the world
Scientists begin to unlock the secrets of papyrus scraps bearing long-lost words by the literary giants of Greece and Rome
By David Keys and Nicholas Pyke
17 April 2005
For more than a century, it has caused excitement and frustration in equal measure – a collection of Greek and Roman writings so vast it could redraw the map of classical civilisation. If only it was legible.
Now, in a breakthrough described as the classical equivalent of finding the holy grail, Oxford University scientists have employed infra-red technology to open up the hoard, known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, and with it the prospect that hundreds of lost Greek comedies, tragedies and epic poems will soon be revealed.
In the past four days alone, Oxford’s classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.
The original papyrus documents, discovered in an ancient rubbish dump in central Egypt, are often meaningless to the naked eye – decayed, worm-eaten and blackened by the passage of time. But scientists using the new photographic technique, developed from satellite imaging, are bringing the original writing back into view. Academics have hailed it as a development which could lead to a 20 per cent increase in the number of great Greek and Roman works in existence. Some are even predicting a “second Renaissance”.
Christopher Pelling, Regius Professor of Greek at the University of Oxford, described the new works as “central texts which scholars have been speculating about for centuries”.
Professor Richard Janko, a leading British scholar, formerly of University College London, now head of classics at the University of Michigan, said: “Normally we are lucky to get one such find per decade.” One discovery in particular, a 30-line passage from the poet Archilocos, of whom only 500 lines survive in total, is described as “invaluable” by Dr Peter Jones, author and co-founder of the Friends of Classics campaign.
The papyrus fragments were discovered in historic dumps outside the Graeco-Egyptian town of Oxyrhynchus (“city of the sharp-nosed fish”) in central Egypt at the end of the 19th century. Running to 400,000 fragments, stored in 800 boxes at Oxford’s Sackler Library, it is the biggest hoard of classical manuscripts in the world.
The previously unknown texts, read for the first time last week, include parts of a long-lost tragedy – the Epigonoi (“Progeny”) by the 5th-century BC Greek playwright Sophocles; part of a lost novel by the 2nd-century Greek writer Lucian; unknown material by Euripides; mythological poetry by the 1st-century BC Greek poet Parthenios; work by the 7th-century BC poet Hesiod; and an epic poem by Archilochos, a 7th-century successor of Homer, describing events leading up to the Trojan War. Additional material from Hesiod, Euripides and Sophocles almost certainly await discovery.
Oxford academics have been working alongside infra-red specialists from Brigham Young University, Utah. Their operation is likely to increase the number of great literary works fully or partially surviving from the ancient Greek world by up to a fifth. It could easily double the surviving body of lesser work – the pulp fiction and sitcoms of the day.
“The Oxyrhynchus collection is of unparalleled importance – especially now that it can be read fully and relatively quickly,” said the Oxford academic directing the research, Dr Dirk Obbink. “The material will shed light on virtually every aspect of life in Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, and, by extension, in the classical world as a whole.”
The breakthrough has also caught the imagination of cultural commentators. Melvyn Bragg, author and presenter, said: “It’s the most fantastic news. There are two things here. The first is how enormously influential the Greeks were in science and the arts. The second is how little of their writing we have. The prospect of having more to look at is wonderful.”
Bettany Hughes, historian and broadcaster, who has presented TV series including Mysteries of the Ancients and The Spartans, said: “Egyptian rubbish dumps were gold mines. The classical corpus is like a jigsaw puzzle picked up at a jumble sale – many more pieces missing than are there. Scholars have always mourned the loss of works of genius – plays by Sophocles, Sappho’s other poems, epics. These discoveries promise to change the textual map of the golden ages of Greece and Rome.”
When it has all been read – mainly in Greek, but sometimes in Latin, Hebrew, Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic, Arabic, Nubian and early Persian – the new material will probably add up to around five million words. Texts deciphered over the past few days will be published next month by the London-based Egypt Exploration Society, which financed the discovery and owns the collection.
A 21st-century technique reveals antiquity’s secrets
Since it was unearthed more than a century ago, the hoard of documents known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri has fascinated classical scholars. There are 400,000 fragments, many containing text from the great writers of antiquity. But only a small proportion have been read so far. Many were illegible.
Now scientists are using multi-spectral imaging techniques developed from satellite technology to read the papyri at Oxford University’s Sackler Library. The fragments, preserved between sheets of glass, respond to the infra-red spectrum – ink invisible to the naked eye can be seen and photographed.
The fragments form part of a giant “jigsaw puzzle” to be reassembled. Missing “pieces” can be supplied from quotations by later authors, and grammatical analysis.
Key words from the master of Greek tragedy
Speaker A: . . . gobbling the whole, sharpening the flashing iron.
Speaker B: And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle’s songs, that wakes up those who are asleep.
Speaker A: And he is gluing together the chariot’s rail.
These words were written by the Greek dramatist Sophocles, and are the only known fragment we have of his lost play Epigonoi (literally “The Progeny”), the story of the siege of Thebes. Until last week’s hi-tech analysis of ancient scripts at Oxford University, no one knew of their existence, and this is the first time they have been published.
Sophocles (495-405 BC), was a giant of the golden age of Greek civilisation, a dramatist who work alongside and competed with Aeschylus, Euripides and Aristophanes.
His best-known work is Oedipus Rex, the play that later gave its name to the Freudian theory, in which the hero kills his father and marries his mother – in a doomed attempt to escape the curse he brings upon himself. His other masterpieces include Antigone and Electra.
Sophocles was the cultured son of a wealthy Greek merchant, living at the height of the Greek empire. An accomplished actor, he performed in many of his own plays. He also served as a priest and sat on the committee that administered Athens. A great dramatic innovator, he wrote more than 120 plays, but only seven survive in full.
Last week’s remarkable finds also include work by Euripides, Hesiod and Lucian, plus a large and particularly significant paragraph of text from the Elegies, by Archilochos, a Greek poet of the 7th century BC.
Found at:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world…sp?story=630165
__________________
63: the country is doing just fine, thank you.
and you think we should trade the White House for one house in way off WA, a crazy blue state where dems rig the elections and loonies run the asylum ?? and here I thought dems were a bunch of pussies with no sense of humor !!
that’s a good one !!! YOU FUNNY…man !!
Rush @ 65
You can’t blame me for trying. Fools are born every minute, and most of them end up on your side.
Alan @ 63:
Some excellent comments!
I think, at least on a gut level, people do like a divided government for many of the reasons you mentioned.
The problem is the extremists of both parties that want to behead anybody that dares compromise or goes out of the parties’ orthodoxy (see Arlen Specter & Joe Lieberman), so its easier (and safer, politically) to obstruct than to work together.
67
The prospect of these additions to our knowledge of classical culture and literature is exciting indeed! Thanks for posting this item.
(Please note for future reference that best practice is to summarize and link to media reports, because cutting and pasting the story may infringe the news organization’s copyright.)
Re: Bob E.’s “note for future reference” to Andrew Brewer:
Also because it’s a lot to read in the middle of this discussion, and rather off-topic.
carla said (back at 7):
Stop that whistling [cute moniker, btw] took issue with that (at 23), claiming:
S.t.w., you’re arguing something way off the mark from carla’s statements. The Soviet Union, China and North Korea are examples of antireligious governments, not at all like our American secular government. There is no problem with having religious men in power (as the United States has always had); but there is a problem with having power used for or against religion(s). carla is right — a secular government that lets all religions flourish independently is best for everyone.
‘Stop that whistling’ writes too much at 52 and advocates for “Gods’ morals–what really works and makes a man happy.”
Which Gods’ morals, exactly? Perhaps you meant the singular “God’s morals,” but the question remains. Whose God? The God of Protestant Christianity? of the Mormons? of Judaism? of Islam? The morals of each religion are slightly different (sometimes more than slightly).
S.t.w. continues:
I am happy for your religious discovery. But be careful about claiming you know what God’s mind holds, or that your God is the one and only true God for this religiously diverse nation.
Or are you one of the people that Goldy was posting about, who believes that everyone else (or at least Democrats, Communists and Jews) are going to Hell?
On a lighter note, you opine that “It could also be alarming to wake up and find that those are not flowers you are hip deep in, but alligators.” To which I say: Dude, you have some strange dreams.
Ne svisti, dyengi ne büd’
Whister @ 52
Here is a right wing source on the abortion rates i quoted earlier.
http://www.patridiots.com/001026.html
But again you use the anger words like “Partial Birth Abortion” can you tell me what this is? Who has these? and how often?
This is another made up term to cull the Sheep, like “Death Tax”
Nobody pays taxes when they die, the spoiled wrotten kids do.
but here is a little bit on Partial Birth whatever. (read down to the rate of occurence)
http://rawstory.com/exclusives.....ad_831.htm
With you reverence for the late great Joe McCarthy (may he burn in hell) You said why didn’t they just say I wasn’t a commie? ( or there abouts)
First of all there was now law against being a communist? But like today the government is using fear like they did then to make up their own laws. There is no law against being a communist now. But you need to read Pastor Neimolers(Spelling?) Poem about how they pick a group and find the blame.
That is the whole point behind Goldys Post…you think we are to smart to let that happen again? we don’t! We think people are just as evil today, and have a better chance to gain ability to control the electorate when they control the Media, they control the machines that count votes, The judiciary, and they control dissent.
Whistler
And for you comparing Clinton,Lincoln, and Mccarthy.
The first two were maybe disliked by half the country for their beliefs, although I believe Polls show Clinton could have won re Election.
McCarthy (rot in hell) was censured by his PEERS not enemies 65 to 22
Here is a quick one pager on McCarthy showing his techniques, it must bring a tear to Ashcroft eye.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/in.....rac/60.htm
Whistler
I Finally figured out where you get your information. Ann Coulters book.
Well even the Christians seem to have a problem with her lies. Here is a review by a Christian bookstore that doesn’t normally do negative reviews (Unchristian, I guess) but felt compelled in this whores case….apology to whores.
So when you claim to try to be centrist, don’t get your information from the wackiest of wackiests.
http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/1400050324.asp
prr, I’m dumbfounded by your comment at 57: “Saying that anti-semitism happens today (with the exception of a very small margin of instances) in America is just plain ignorant.”
I only wish you were right. According to the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs, in 2003 there were 222 hate crime incidents in Washington (including 296 separate victims); five percent of all the incidents (11) were anti-Jewish. The offenses against Jews that year included property damage/vandalism, intimidation and assault. Maybe that’s “a very small margin of instances,” but those are just the ones that got reported to the police.
The Anti-Defamation League (ADL)’s 2005 Survey of American Attitudes Towards Jews in America, a national poll of 1,600 adults conducted in late March, found that 14% of Americans—nearly 35 million people—hold views about Jews that are “unquestionably anti-Semitic.” Among Hispanics, the number is 29%; among blacks, 36%; among whites, 9%. For instance, 30% of Americans blame Jews for the death of Jesus. 33% question American Jews’ loyalty to the United States. 15% say that Jews have too much power in the U.S.
At the same time, the National 2004 ADL Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents revealed that last year anti-Semitic incidents reached their highest level in nine years, up 17 percent over 2003. From the ADL press release: “Among the factors contributing to the increase, according to the Audit, were stepped up activity by organized neo-Nazi hate groups and a spike in reports of anti-Jewish harassment and intimidation in America’s schools.”
We shouldn’t lose perspective. Outside of Israel, the United States is by far the safest, most tolerant country in the world for Jews. (Global anti-Semitism is growing, and most Americans don’t get even a whiff of it.) But claiming that anti-Semitism is essentially gone from America is (and I don’t mind throwing your words back at you, prr) just plain ignorant.
Goldy @51
I think you’re right to be concerned about the atmosphere of anger and hate in the country. I wish people of both parties would stop trying to tap into it politically, and direct some of their passion towards solving problems and reducing our fears instead of magnifying them.
Doomsday scenarios aren’t new. There was more social chaos in the l930’s than now, and October, l962 was as close to Armageddon as you can get without smelling the sulphur. There were probably angrier times in the U.S., too. Three at least: the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and the Vietnam War.
In l971 I enrolled at a college where the ROTC building had been burned. You could sense anger even in classes like math. A philosophy professor who had participated in the ROTC incident discovered that several of us in his class were veterans, and began comparing us to the Nuremberg defendants, saying we were making the same defense of our actions, “only following orders.” He didn’t exactly say we were Nazis, but the comparison seemed clear, so we shot him.
Sorry, couldn’t resist. Actually he’s still teaching philosophy, trying to get kids who care mostly about their appearance to care about Aristotle and Plato.
Later generations may have first learned about the Nazis from
Mel Brooks movies, but not us. In the fifties t.v. stations were short of programming, and they kept running the WWII newsreels over and over again, like the History channel, only there were only three channels in those days. Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen, the Eichmann trial, that clip of the oven door opening and skulls inside was almost imprinted on us.
I understand the point you were trying to make, but I’d like to suggest not comparing anyone to the Nazis, unless you mean it literally.
George;
The Nazi’s didn’t start off with the Camps, that was just the Final Solution. You need to go to some of the links in the previous Fascism threads, to see Thomas Hartman’s comparison to the 1924 Germany, to present day. The Nazi’s didn’t break any national laws, they just got control of everything including the Judiciary to change the laws.
Here is the link again, to see why we see some similarities
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm
Dan@80:
Yes, there were many atrocities that preceded the camps. In fact, the Jews were persecuted in Germany long before the camps, e.g., “Crystal night.” The history of atrocities that preceded the camps is all the more reason not to compare today’s Democrats and Republicans (at least most of ’em) to the Nazis.
As to the statement that “the Nazis didn’t break any national laws,” that’s historically inaccurate. They broke German laws at least as early as 1923, the famous “Beer hall putsch,” (they liked to toss back a few while discussing politics then, too). It was a failed attempt to take power illegally. Hitler himself was convicted of treason in 1924, and sentenced to prison for five years, but served only a about a year (an argument for stiffer sentences?).
In l932 Hitler tried to take power by legal means, but lost the presidential election to Hindenburg in a landslide. When the 86
year old president died in l934, the Nazis ignored his will that the monarchy be restored upon his death, and took power by force. After the Nazis had complete power they did conduct an election in which Germans were asked to approve of Hitler’s authority; 90% of those who voted approved in what most historians do not think was an honest vote.
Hartman’s essay refers in passing to William L. Shirer, the author of what is considered the definitive history of Nazi Germany, “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.” Shirer’s book contains literally hundreds of references, and has far more information than Hartman’s brief 2005 commentary. Shirer was a reporter in Berlin during the Nazi rise to power, and his “Berlin Diary” is a good source of facts, too.
Goldy and anyone still looking at this thread:
Sorry to rattle on so much. The idea was that we’d have a long way to go to even approach the level of Anti-semitism seen in Germany, even pre-Hitler, and compared to most this is still a hell of a good country.
Alan@69,
I like how you go on about lack of civility and then fling a turd. That is why Democrats are untrustworthy. One minute they are calling for civility and understanding of each other (usually when they are out of power) and the next their intense hatred shines through. No, we ARE a divided country.
George, why would you apologize for adding thoughtful, non-trolling content? I for one appreciate it even if I don’t agree with all of it.
You and I sound about the same age…probably had many of the same experiences…
I remember murmured warnings that largely fell on deaf ears back then but mostly proved themselves over time…don’t you think that’s what we’re seeing and hearing of late?
Should we ignore the murmurs again?
I agree it’s a hell of a country…worth raising, listening to the murmurs so we don’t have to go that long way you speak of.
VWRC @ 58 Of all the outrageous balogna. “Then we have William Jefferson Clinton. His response to the 93 twin tower bombing was to do nothing.”
Really? The perpetraiters of that bombing are now ROTTING IN JAIL! You dumbass! Bin “Bushie” Laden is still at large and Bush has clearly stated that “he really doesn’t think about him anymore”.
You want to fight succesfully any war, you better get a democrat in the oval office. The repugs are to busy stealing from the treasury.
About this religious zealot WA State government re-naming King County for the REVEREND King instead of the former VP Rufus King, clearly further proof that “the Dominionist forces are suddenly willing to openly flex their theocratic ambitions”.
Donnageddon@85,
Fight successfully in any war??? You mean like Johnson fought Vietnam?? Or like Carter fought against the Iranians?? Yeah, crashing the helicopters in the desert- THAT’LL SHOWEM BY GOD!!!
Blowing up baby food factories?? Is that how Democrats think they can win wars??? By hitting camels in the butt with million dollar missiles???
Under Bush we have seen over 50 million people freed from tyranny. The Cedar Revolution has flourished in Lebanon under Bush. And for the first time in over 30 years, the Syrain Army is withdrawing from Lebanon. In Saudia Arabia the right to vote is being expanded and in Egypt they are now allowing true competitive elections. Iraq just got finished holding and election.
And I will remind you that Bush has kept the terrorist from slamming any more planes into sky scrapers.
Bin Laden is irrelevent now because A) He is probably dead. B) They can no longer mount any sort of credible attack on the US.
It was Reagan who said “Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” and the wall came down! Did Carter ever say such a thing?
Face it, Kennedy was the last Democrat that had any credibility on National defense. Ever since then, the hippie anti-war crowd from the Vietnam era has been trying to diarm the US and make us surrender to the world.
Very Constipated Right Winger….get your facts straight, troll #3
zip @ 86
Ummm. . . I don’t think the State did that because King gave good sermons or brilliant theological writings. I was under the impression he was being honored for his civil rights work.
LOL @ 87 *make us surrender to the world*
And all the gawds forbid that the US join the world community rather than feel they should dominate it…insert sadly shaking it’s head smilie thingie…
G Davis @ 84,
No, we shouldn’t ignore the murmurs. But sometimes I get the feeling that some of these extreme right-wingers would be happier in a totalitarian state, so long as they’re the dictators like Bush once said himself.