I apologize for frequently calling the BIAW a bunch of “bastards.” Such a reference unfairly impugns the reputations of other, more respectable bastards. So as a point of fairness, I’m going to try to be more precise.
Anyway… it looks like those fucking bastards at the BIAW are up to exactly what I’ve been saying they are up to: destroying organized Labor in Washington state.
The Building Industry Association of Washington (BIAW), one of the state’s most powerful conservative voices, is considering sponsoring a so-called “right-to-work” initiative that would prohibit mandatory union dues.
Gee… I wonder if the Seattle Times could have been any more understated?
The fucking bastards at the BIAW virtually own Dino Rossi, spending $750,000 on his behalf before the election, and God knows how much since. They are the financiers of the failed orange revolution, an effort to overthrow our elected governor through lies, deceit, and bullying. They have printed propagandistic newspaper ads, bumper stickers and fliers, mailed out postcards promoting the right-wing blogs, and launched an unprecedented post-election paid-media campaign.
These are the fucking bastards who fraudulently obtained the signatures of hundreds of voters by sending them sham surveys with $10 “thank you” checks… who devoted their entire staff towards producing a felon list that carelessly defamed the names of hundreds of innocent voters… and who sources tell me have hired private investigators to dig up dirt on public officials and other “enemies.” (I’ve noticed a suspicious inquiry on my own credit report.)
A “powerful conservative voice”…? The BIAW has the loudest, most partisan and mean-spirited conservative voice in the state… and millions of dollars to back it up. Funded by a loophole in our workers compensation system, they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars buying themselves Supreme Court Justice Jim Johnson… and just to be on the safe side, bankrolled Attorney General Rob McKenna to boot.
And now these bastards… these fucking, fascist bastards… angered by their impotent failure to shove Rossi into office by any means possible, are preparing to spend their millions on their long threatened “right-to-work” initiative… a Goebbels-esque phrase that offends the sensibilities of anybody with an ounce of love for the English language.
“Right-to-work” is union-busting short and simple… the organized labor equivalent of the tragedy of the commons. When individual workers can enjoy the benefits of a union contract, yet are given the “right” to choose whether to pay union dues, individual self-interest guides many to opt out, eventually defunding and decertifying the union as membership declines. It is like a bridge whose maintenance is paid for by an optional toll; does anybody believe it would not eventually collapse out of disrepair?
This is not only exactly what has happened in states that have enacted so-called “right-to-work” legislation, it is also the exact purpose of the legislation… long a part of a Republican strategy to defund the Democratic Party by destroying one of its most powerful political allies. It is also integral to a corporate strategy that seeks to compete with low-cost manufacturers abroad, by creating a low-wage, no-benefit workforce at home.
The BIAW’s Tom McCabe claims a right-to-work initiative would be retaliation for Democratic efforts to fix workers compensation, preventing the BIAW from using premiums as a cash cow for funding conservative politicians and causes:
“They’ve thrown down the gantlet, and we have to respond.”
That’s not only childish, but a complete and utter load of crap. The BIAW has been threatening this initiative for years, and if anything, Labor’s unsuccessful effort to undercut BIAW funding was a preemptive strike. McCabe and the BIAW will stop at nothing to achieve their political goals, and it would be suicidal for Labor if they failed to provide an equally strident opposition.
Just as much a load of bullshit are protestations from business leaders that mandatory union dues “violate individual workers’ rights and give unions unfair advantages in the workplace and in politics.” That’s right… they say they’re doing this for the workers. And unions have an unfair political advantage? Gimme a break! As the Times also reports today, business is doing just fine for itself in the political arena, thank you very much.
Fortune 500 companies that invested millions of dollars in electing Republicans are emerging as the earliest beneficiaries of a government controlled by President Bush and the largest GOP House and Senate majority in a half-century.
What the fucking bastards at the BIAW really want is to eliminate Labor’s counter-balance on business’s otherwise unchecked power in the workplace, and in politics. To pretend for a nanosecond that right-to-work is about workers’ rights to anything, is a cruel, underhanded joke. Business leaders have a fiduciary responsibility to serve the interests of their shareholders… not their customers, not their communities, and certainly not their workers… and without organized labor around to create some sort of balance of power, we’ll all soon be obediently working for Wal-Mart wages… or else.
What does the BIAW want in return for the millions of workers comp dollars it spends on behalf of right-wing politicians and causes? Cheap unregulated workers to build cheap unregulated houses… and then tort reform to prevent homeowners from suing them for the resulting shoddy workmanship. These are greedy, selfish, self-righteous, fucking bastards. And while I’ve never been a member of a union myself, I promise you that if the BIAW ever runs their union-busting initiative, I’ll be out there on the streets, side by side with Labor, shadowing the BIAW’s paid signature gatherers, and picketing the businesses who contribute to their sham campaign.
[Editor’s Note: for those of you offended by my foul language, please address your complaints to the BIAW’s potty-mouthed spokesperson, Erin “fuck you” Shannon.]
Good for the BIAW
Organizations like BIAW are typical rightwing scum. They lie, they cheat, they steal. They do whatever it takes to get their way no matter who they stomp on in the process.
YEAH!!!!!!!!
I better send them a check.
Organizations like unions are typical leftwing scum. They lie, they cheat, they steal. They do whatever it takes to get their way no matter who they stomp on in the process.
Thats where the term “RATS” came from when refering to non union scumbag supporters like biaw.
R-really
A-arent
T-too
S-smart
Chardonnay…
How can you say that. Look at what the unions did for the US Auto Industry. Wait they are out of business, let’s use another example. Look at what the unions have done for the trade show business in New York City & Philadelphia…. Wait, most national association boycott those cities because of the Union thugs ripping off their members.
On second thought. Maybe Union Busting is exactly what we need in this Sate
prr @ 6
Unions had little to do with the downfall of the US auto industry and everything to do with the incompetence of corporate management. If you believe otherwise, then please explain how manufacturers like Honda and Toyota are able to maintain plants in the United States and still turn a profit
Want to talk about liars and cheaters. Well The Senate Dems who ran behind CG on a No New Taxs platform, are now asking for $517 million (314 million more than CG) and before they plop a massive 20 cents a gallon gas tax on! So we are now looking at $517 million in new taxes. Who are the liars.
PS. And don’t even get me started on the cheaters after your model election!
That’s right prr… it’s the unions’ fault Detroit faltered, not management. Just like it’s the unions’ fault Boeing can’t compete with the French with their 30-hour work weeks and two-months vacation. I suppose that’s why the workers get the big bucks while management scrapes by on a pittance.
Are you happy being a tool of big business and the BIAW?
Prr, do I smell a pussy who can’t spell around here?
How do I send a contribution to the WASH State BIAW? Thanks in advance. JCH
when you have nothing of substance to say you criticize typo’s. typical empty soul. get an original idea or thought for once in your life.
DD@5why would you call democRATS scumbags?
Dauntless @ 9
I was unaware that your Mother was on this Board.
I thought I had her out working the street.
Rick @ 7
I would say that the Unions had a huge role in the problems we faced.
read the attached link for a closer insight…
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.....-o06.shtml
And another…. So much for the success of unions
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.....-f26.shtml
prr, Would you consider the Japanese auto industry successful? The Confederation of Japan Automobile Workers’ Union, or JAW, are the workers who kicked the US auto industry butt. And is wasn’t the UAWs fault that the US auto industry blows. When you design the Chevy Citation/Corsica/Cavalier/Cobalt/Craptacular to compete against Honda and Toyota, you’re going to lose every time. The UAW workers on the Toyota line in Ohio are able to put out a fine product. So it’s not the labor that’s the problem, it’s the suits.
Please name me any other private organization that has requirements of membership like a closed union shop. If there is one, then my apologies, but I can’t think of any.
Goldy, how you feel if one of your requirements of work would be a mandatory membership of the BIAW? You’d be rather unhappy to have to belong to such a partisan outfit, correct? Why should unions (also very partisan) be different?
Please, I’m not slamming unions; they definitely have a very important place in PRIVATE businesses (as a non-union public employee, I don’t believe in public employee unions, but that’s another subject, maybe) but I think union membership should be voluntary. If the union is doing good for their members, they should have no trouble getting and retaining members.
Goldy said:
“Business leaders have a fiduciary responsibility to serve the interests of their shareholders… not their customers, not their communities, and certainly not their workers… and without organized labor around to create some sort of balance of power, we’ll all soon be obediently working for Wal-Mart wages… or else.”
I don’t disagree, thus the need for unions, but you are stating the obvious! If workers can’t see this truth for themselves and voluntarily join a union, then they deserve to be screwed by the company.
prr @13
From your link to the World Socialist Web Site:
“The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the establishment of world socialism.”
Even the Socialists see unions as corrupt? Wow! I wonder what their stance is on the previous healthcare thread…
lol @ oldstalewine and prettyrancidrat. who would you two twits drums so tight? Oh, I see , you must have been union members and they kicked you both out for indecency
Goldy, Now take a deep breath and tell us again why mandatory union membership is such a great idea. I thought liberals were all for freedom of choice, celebrate the differences, etc, etc. Liberals are very open – as long as you agree with them.
Im pro-choice on this issue. Why shouldnt someone be able to choose who represents them? Why should someone be forced to pay dues in order to work? It sounds like a protection racket to me.
I’m always amazed that union members willingly give up hefty dues to union leaders who make several times more than they do, and find it easy to encourage strikes. Strikes suspect pay for the union workers, but the leaders continue to get their money.
Unions and minimum wage laws go hand-in-hand. They both work to keep unskilled labor out of the work force, and therefore to keep the poor at the bottom. People should be free to offer their services for whatever price someone is willing to pay them. That is a basic freedom.
Jon @18,
If you work for any company that is a part of the BIAW’s retro rebate program, then a portion of your workers comp contribution is going to fund the BIAW’s political activities whether you like it or not. And I imagine if you were not unionized, and you complained loudly enough to your employer about this injustice, you would likely find yourself without a job.
Rick @21,
The work place is democratic. Workers can vote to certify union representation, or decertify it. If a majority of workers in a workplace don’t want to be unionized, then they won’t be. Also, somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe most unions have voluntary contributions to their political activities.
prr @ 13 and @ 14
You’ve lost me. You claimed that unions caused the downfall of the US auto industry–a downfall that took place largely during the 70’s and 80’s. You now point to articles discussing the success of unions some 20 years later as evidence that your argument was correct. Wouldn’t the causal chain work in the other direction, namely that the downfall of the US auto industry has led to a reduction in union membership?
Or have you simply abandoned your earlier argument, and are now claiming that unions are bad, in principle, simply because fewer people are opting to join? That might be a somewhat interesting idea, but it has little to do with employers lobbying for changes in how unions ought to be allowed to conduct their business. It might well be the case that unions longer provide value to workers as they once did, but isn’t that something for workers to decide as opposed to employers?
#
Organizations like unions are typical leftwing scum. They lie, they cheat, they steal. They do whatever it takes to get their way no matter who they stomp on in the process.
Comment by chardonnay — 3/28/05 @ 2:52 pm
Do you enjoy that 40 hour work week? The fact that you weren’t allowed to work in a factory at 7 years old (though in your case it may actually have done some good)?
I’ve never been a member of a union, but I’m sure glad they’re out there to represent the interests of working people – and that includes the ones who don’t have union jobs, too.
Name calling is a poor substitute for an actual reasoned argument, but I guess that doesn’t stop Sound Politics bottom feeders (Sharkie is usually wrong, but he at least makes an effort to be substantive).
My uncle was a “union organizer” in southern California in the 60’s and 70’s. His job consisted of beating up anyone who didn’t want to join the union. He bragged about carrying a gun.
Yes, it is a personal decision to unionize.
Janet @ 23
You wrote:
You assume that the demand side of the labor market is marked by what Economists call “perfect competition”. The reality is quite a bit more messy than that, and creates a situation where workers are not able to offer their services to employers at whatever wage they choose. The technical term is “oligopsony.” Look it up.
Interesting, out of 22 states that have right to work laws 17 of them have better employment rates than Washington….
Chuck @ 29
First, chant the mantra: “Correlation is not causation.” Second, see if you can figure out how to account for all the other economic factors that affect employment rates in those 17 other states so that we might reasonably conclude that anything having to do with unions is a causal factor in the difference.
Hint: you might want to take a look at what’s happening in the five other states.
I’m always amazed that union members willingly give up hefty dues to union leaders who make several times more than they do
They do it so that they are able to collectively bargain and make more than minimum wage, something that the BIAW/GOP is likely against as well.
Unions worked to obtained overtime laws, the 40 hour work week, and worker safety laws.
Of course, corporations have their own “unions” and groups which they use quite effectively to place downward pressure on wages.
Goldie @24
Yes, unions have to be very careful to separate their dues money from their political contributions. Dues money can only be used to run the union, etc – voluntary gifts to the union’s PAC are used for their political activity.
The only good unions anymore are the municipal, schools, and other “non-profits”.
The old-fashioned and obsolete blue-collar unions have prevented me and my kids from joining. This apprenticeship etc. that we have had caused a lot of problems getting new blood in. No wonder people don’t want them anymore.
But exactly what is wrong with voluntary union dues for government employees? It would sure get leadership on the boat and off the yacht.
The BIAW wants it both ways. Cheap untrained, unregulated labor, and no accountability. To be a contractor in this state all that is required is payment of fees and proof of insurance. No exam required to build something as complex as a house or even multi-family housing. If mistakes are made well…..arbitration is required. Guess who pays for the arbitration? You guessed it the homeowner. Binding arbitration is built into more contracts now but the purchase of your home is the most expensive one you will ever make. For more information see the HADD website or for binding arbitration see the Public Citizen website.
char @ 3
I’d be willing to bet you DON’T send BIAW a check. People like you are all hat, no cattle.
JCH @ 11
I’ll bet you don’t send a check to BIAW either. All mouth, no action.
char @ 3, JCH @ 11
To make it easier for you to put your money where your mouths are, here is BIAW’s mailing address, which I’m posting here to encourage you to send in your donations:
Building Industry Association of Washington
P.O. Box 1909
Olympia, WA 98507
By all means, donate to BIAW! Why am I encouraging you bigmouths to donate your PRIVATE funds to BIAW? Because I’d much rather they fund Rossi’s campaign and election challenge with PRIVATE funding than L & I taxes, that’s why!
prr @ 14
Is that your dad she’s with?
Jon @ 18
Just to update you on the laws that have been in place since about 1948 or thereabouts, Jon, closed union shops are illegal in the U.S. and no one can be forced to join a union. Everywhere in the U.S., you always have the right to opt out of union membership, but you can be required to pay a “shop fee” because it’s only fair that people who benefit from the wages and benefits bargained for by the union help pay for the bargaining costs.
angryvoter @ 22
Why would someone with your views want to work for a union employer in the first place? You can solve all your problems by seeking work with a non-union employer. Oh I see — you want the money and benefits!
Chessy Chuckie @ 29
Care to share with us how average incomes in those states compare with Washington’s average income?
The BIAW has had 20+ full-time staffers working for Rossi for several months. I wonder if they reported that as an in-kind campaign contribution? I’ll bet they didn’t. I wonder how big a fine they’re going to be forced to pay to the Public Disclosure Commission.
swatter@33
Schools cannot legally have unions, they are associations.
Goldy @ 24 said:
“If you work for any company that is a part of the BIAW’s retro rebate program, then a portion of your workers comp contribution is going to fund the BIAW’s political activities whether you like it or not. And I imagine if you were not unionized, and you complained loudly enough to your employer about this injustice, you would likely find yourself without a job.”
Well, I stand corrected, but are you making a two wrongs make a right argument?
Also, it seems like the opponents of this measure are saying, in effect, “The closed shop unions are doing such a crappy job that, if given a choice, workers will opt of the union in droves.” Again, as I said, if the unions are doing a good job, then people will stay with them. Furthermore, I think the closed shop concept makes unions less accountable as they have no motivation to improve if they have a locked in membership.
Anyway, great topic!
Dubyasux @ 37:
Pardon my terminology. A “shop fee” is still a forced fee that a worker has no choice but to pay.
Dubyasux@39
After figuring in the cost of living (you know, housing, taxes, food, taxes, fuel, taxes, heating, taxes and of coarse taxes) they actually make more money in those states as well.
People who are injured on the job are also in the position of having to wrangle with L&I to get their claims paid. Too bad more money isn’t spent on taking care of injured workers and less on politics.
Jon @ 43
The purpose of a shop fee is to make those who benefit from the union’s bargaining activities share the costs. Otherwise you’re going to have freeloaders.
Cheesy Chuckie @ 44
Naturally the cost of living is lower where people live in mud huts and commute to their jobs on mules.
MR X @ 26
see post #2 right before my post # 4. OK? Bu by
Goldy–
I told you so dumbass!
Goldy was all high and mighty when he saw the Dems control the Legislature and Governor’s seat. Goldy wanted to be vindictive with his “power”. The problem with LEFTIST zealots like Goldy is
A) They are in the minority
B) They can never see beyond their noses what the potential consequences of abusing their power and trying to silence the small business community that CREATES THE GODDAMN JOBS.
C) They are reactionary.
D) They are very bright.
E) They are stupid.
Goldy really loves this. The unions will hire him for their propoganda campaign.
Congratulations Goldy…you just hit the jackpot!!
Mrs. C, your pet tarantula got out of its box again!
P.S., Mrs. C when you capture your pet tarantula and put it back in its box, I suggest you put duct tape over all the air holes.
K&I is a rip off. Plain and simple. their rates are hurting everyone @ $1.46/hr. Why not follow California and Idaho and just have private insurance cover workers comp. Zero payroll deduct from employees.
State Auditor found that there i $6 mil unaccounted for within L&I. They will not allow him to further investigate. If that much money is missing wouldn’t your liberal olympians be quick to spend it on some more art for our prisons? AND to top it off, L&I is totally in bed with the unions. Do business owners have a choice where our money goes once L&I gets it? They seem to be pretty generous handing out claims. Like awarding a abcessed tooth for a dump truck driver. I’ll bet that 6 mil is distributed to many other false claims of friends & family members of WMS. L&I and ESD much like the king county can of worms. “Fraud, what fraud?”
& DONALD FYI, Our company is a member of the Farm Bureau. We pay an anual fee of a few hundred dollars. When the refund comes it is several thousand dollars. That is a great return on our money. We pay L&I more than $60,000/yr and ESD $60,000/yr. In Idaho we paid $12k/yr for workers comp insurance. These WA State agencies are out of control.
We have no voice in Olympia besides BIAW and the Farm Bureau. You assholes assume all business and all contractors are low life scums. Proves you really know nothing. We employ people and we pay them very well. unlike the Tribes who pay casino workers diddly squat. Why are you not outrages about that? Why are you not knocking on the doors of the Tribes?
Why is it ok for unions to lobby olympia but biaw & others piss you commies off? Can’t wait to here your lame ass excuse on this.
Lovingly, C
carla @ 2–sounds like you described all the unions I have been acquainted with. Unions used to serve a purpose, but now they want only dues to use for leftist marxist goals and want anyone who disagrees to go the way of Jimmy Hoffa in a big hurry. We have the right to life (HA!), liberty (HA!) and the pusuit of happiness (If you can afford the taxes), but not the right to work and make all of the other worthwhile? You and Goldilocks are living in a fairy tale. No union ever cared as much about your interests as YOU do–plain and simple truth.
When you are forced to strike against your will (solidarity–where have I heard that before?), do you get as much as the union bosses per day? Strike pay, my backside! It strikes at all you stand for! You are the one being struck when the union chokes the goose that lays the golden egg, while refusing to allow it to eat. No wonder we have so much outsourcing. And as for what ruined the auto industry–when you have a new truck door that rattles because of the beer cans and chicken bones some disgruntled worker threw into it, ’nuff said.
Dubyasux@46
You mean like the people living under freeway overpasses in Seattle? r the people living in tents on JZ Knights compound in Yelm? Or the people that live on property they have bought in campers because they cannot build on them because of government rules and prohibitive permits? Dont play the mud shack game, this shate has plenty of them….
The GOP is furious that they are forced in some cimcumstances to pay workers more than minimum wage, even even that is too much.
Eliminating unions will place further pressures down on wages for workers.
Its so pathetic. Even “managers” at many of the mall stores now top out at around $10.50 to $11.25 per hour. The great thing is since they are exempt, they are not even required to get overtime pay.
However, if you make most of your income from dividends or capital gains, eliminating unions will be good news for you.
char @ 51
Why do you think the can of worms is only in King County? There are three times as many improperly counted provisional ballots in Republican counties. Several Rossi counties didn’t bother to check signatures and let nearly 2,000 provisional ballots go through without verifying voter eligibility.
Erik @ 54
If you make most of your income from dividends or capital gains, eliminating taxes on dividends and capital gains will be even better news for you. Republicans think only wages should be taxed.
donnny @ ?
cat got your tongue?
donny, you are a great conversationalist I see. As long as everyone agrees with you. Must come from being a Judge. I have noticed you are “mucho tranquillo” lately, to what do we owe this luxury? I have also noticed you let up on the spelling and grammar corrections to the opposing posters. I am kinda liking this new image you have.
mucho amore
C
don @ 59
HUH? what the hell are you talking about. you have no idea how much business pays in federal taxes, FUTA & FICA, ETC.
get a clue. nice try changing the subject, where is your response about the Tribes and Unions lobbying ONLY Olympia DEMOCRATS? WHY IS THAT OK WITH YOU?
Goldy, The next time you build yourself a new home or add on
have the union boys build it for you. I would like to know
how many so called pro union Elites like yourself or even
union members themselves do this. NONE I wonder why?
marks @ 62
are you kidding, these liberals are the same creeps that hire a guy to do a job on their house and then bitch about it and make the poor guy do extra work before they pay them, IF THEY EVEN PAY THEM AT ALL. These liberals are the ones that want to hire a owner operator contractor, working in his own and then stiff the poor guy. I have seen it many times.
These liberals are the same jerkoffs that complain about their meals in restaurants and complain about everything everywhere they go. The world owes them something.
Republicans think only wages should be taxed.
Yeah. Nice system isn’t it. Wages are taxed from 10 to 35 percent. With social security tax, it amounts to around 40 percent.
God forbid you should have a small business netting 90k, then you will pay double SS tax with everying adding to around 45 percent.
However, if you make your income from dividends or capital gains, you will only pay 15 percent, with no social security tax.
If you make money from capital gains, you only pay between 15 and 28 percent.
Best yet, obtain your money from inheritance, you and your children and their children will never ever have to pay any tax.
But “chardonnay,” don’t you realize that Horse’s Ass and the similar blogs are just our little plan to track down all the liberals and destroy them? After all, they’re liberals — probably communists, homosexuals, bed-wetters, et cetera — when will the DECENT PEOPLE rise up and KILL THEM ALL? They don’t DESERVE TO LIVE! THIS COUNTRY was put here for us good G*D-FEARING MORMONS! All the rest of this horrific tide of human scum MUST be STERILIZED from this earth!
…Next, the wine drinkers, and there won’t be anybody to stand up for them. Nor for those with commenters’ Tourette’s. (Watch out Mr C.)
Note: This statement was manufactured in a facility that processes irony. Moreover, if it were serious there would be many more misspellings.
Steve @ 55
You are certainly one of the shrillest people out there. How many people have unions murdered recently? How many new car buyers have found chicken bones or empty beer cans in their new vehicles? You’re full of shit.
Why does one pay union dues when in a position represented by the union? Quite simply because in that case you get the benefits negotiated by the union- vacation, wage rate, health insurance. It is simply not practical to have two classes of employees in a single position, one represented and the other not. Nor is it reasonable to have some bear none of the costs and receive all of the benefits. Although many of you (Chard, Mr. C, JCH) seem incapable of comprehending the concept of compromise, that is what’s required. Want the benes, pay the price. And as Goldy stated above if more that half of you don’t like it, decertify.
chardummy @ 60
If this chick is falling for me, somebody please pull my plug! I don’t want to live anymore!
char @ 61
Tribes and unions contribute mucho bucks to the Democratic Party, so we like them. Got a problem with that? Repubs kiss up to their big contributors, why shouldn’t we? Are you guys claiming exclusive rights to ass kissing?
Why should all who are in positions represented by unions pay dues? Beacuse they all share the benefits- wages, vacation, health coverage. It’s not reasonable to have two classes of emplotees- one represented and one not. Nor is it reasonable to have one not pay the cost yet enjoy the benefits.
Quite simple acutally.
And as Goldy pointed out above- if more than half of you don’t like it, decertify.
Quite simply because in that case you get the benefits negotiated by the union- vacation, wage rate, health insurance.
Yes, but there will always be a few non-union activists who, while slurping up the increased health benefits, safety benefits and wages obtained by the union, will want to shirk their portion of the payment for collective bargaining.
Some think that without the union, they would still get $20/hr with a high school diploma that they get with the union.
Companies have their own “unions,” via their associations, and Chambers of Commerce. They like the idea of collective bargaining concerning wages and do so with their own, most just don’t like it for workers.
Don, please don’t latter yourself, arrogant liberals are not attractive. Conservative men are much more attractive.
The BIAW “freeload” proposal
. . .
The union is out there negotiating for your wage increases. Why should you get a free ride? Why should you be able to go to work for that company, get the same benefits as everybody else who paid their union dues and you paid nothing?. . . why should they get the benefits of everybody who is paying dues and get a free ride?”
Kind of like someone who wishes to be exempted by the taxes imposed by a school levy and then when it passes places their children in the schools, reaping all of the benefits of the levy. Should this person be exempt from the levy when he or she benefits from it?
FYI…K & all, not everybody needs a Union to keep a job. Millions of people seem to be doing just fine without them. If you want to worship your union, go right ahead.
Donald, you admit Unions and Tribes lobby legislators and you admit that is a good thing for your democrat agenda. Then why are you and Goldy shitting your pants over the BIAW? A bit hypocritical!
Now that we know about the KC election fraudmonster, we will start winning these initiatives. You don’t have a chance.
Then when Ron Sims gets his ass booted out, we can start cleaning up this shit hole. It’ll all be ok Don, you can move to oregon and partake in the assisted suicide program. I hear the success rate is really poor. Most people don’t die right away, they suffer for days sometimes.
Cynical @50,
If only.
Actually, they barely tolerate me.
chardonnay @63,
What a comforting world you live in. Yes, I’m a very bad person. (I must be… because I disagree with you.)
Erik @ 72
“Companies have their own “unions,” via their associations, and Chambers of Commerce.”
Right, but businesses are free to opt out of the trade association if the group does not provide value. Take the BIAW funding from the L&I rebate program, if the builders that pay in don’t like it they can quit the BIAW. It can’t possibly be any simpler. Businesses pay a heck of a lot to join these associations, and they will quit if the association does not deliver a bottom line benfit.
The whole vendetta Goldy and the band of lefties have against the BIAW is pretty lame: if the BIAW members don’t support what happens with the L&I rebates or the Rossi contest money, BIAW will shrivel away because the membership will quit. Call it “right to join”. As opposed to the public employee unions: if a member doesn’t support the union’s lefty agenda, the member just keeps paying the dues. And the taxpayer funds that dues payment. Call it “right to make the public pay”.
K @ 67
They understand the concept of freeloading very well. They don’t want to pay taxes either. They want to do everything with other people’s money. It’s their religion.
chardummy @ 76
Tribes and unions aren’t doing it with L & I tax money.
As opposed to the public employee unions: if a member doesn’t support the union’s lefty agenda, the member just keeps paying the dues.
One has the right to opt out of the political organizing and receive a partial rebate under the current laws.
However, freeloading isn’t permitted for the benefits from organizing and collective bargaining.
The closest thing cities have is the LID, Local Improvement District where neighborhoods or businesses in an area can vote for some new sidewalk or other improvements. If enough of the neighbors vote for it, the city will put in some extra street improvements and charge ALL of the neighbors some portion of it. However, the neighbors that did not vote for the improvements will still have to pay their share. They are not allowed to slurp up the benefit and contribute nothing.
If a group really didn’t want a union they could vote to uncertify.
I generally like unions as they are largely responsible for the creation of the middle class in the US, worker safety regulations, the 40 hour work week, and overtime rules. Plus, there has to be some sort of offset to bargain fairly with large companies.
Goldy, now that you have had the evening to settle down, the BIAW has been very similar to the early unions in the benefit they provided. They, and in particular, Tom McCabe, were us small business people’s first advocates on the burgeoning and nonsensical regulation and growth in Olympia since the mid-90s.
Now then, a better question would be, “has the BIAW outlived their usefulness like the unions have?” In my opinion, us little guys still need the BIAW.
I generally like unions as they are largely responsible for the creation of the middle class in the US, worker safety regulations, the 40 hour work week, and overtime rules. Plus, there has to be some sort of offset to bargain fairly with large companies.>>>>>
I generally liked passenger trains, covered wagons, and stagecoaches as well. They were largely responsible for the settlement of America, but their time has come and they have outlived their usefullness. This world is full of tools that once were important to mans progress but now are obsolete…unfortunatly some people havent accepted the demise of the passenger train or the unions yet.
chuckie doodles @ 82 you better be careful, you are sounding the demise of the neo cons…they have outlived their usefullenss
jpgee@83
Fiscal responsability will never outlive its usefullness
Goldy @ 76
You finally admit that you will be comforted to agree with me. Awesome!
Don, good try, Unions have everything to do w/L & I, they paved the way for the extortionist policies for L & I, Democrats, one in the same as Unions, steal from business. They take and never give back.
BIAW & the Farm Bureau are voluntary programs. They also give back to its members, a portion of the money that democrats, unions and L & I steal. It’s a good thing.
Tell me, have any of you socialists ever owned a business?
Have any of you immoral deviants ever taken risks, put your house up as collateral to get a loan or a line of credit to keep your business going, keep your employees on the payroll? Have any of you degenerates ever written a check to the IRS for $100k or more?
All of you were either born w/ a silver spoon in your mouth or have been dependent on a Government paycheck/pension and have never actually gone out in the world and made your own living via risks and hard work. Until you do, stop trying to take from the more than deserved assets from the ones that have.
Dubyasux
You dont have a clue how the L&I system works. That is not state money, it is money that these business owners OVERPAID into the system. If anything, they should be collecting interest. Get your facts straight jackass.
chuckie @ 92
Passenger trains will make a comeback. Seen the price of gas lately? Ever heard of peak oil?
As the dollar sinks and americans can’t afford to binge on imports we may even see a revival of light manufacturing – and yes, thank god – unions.
This world is full of tools that once were important to mans progress but now are obsolete…
I would agree with you except that nearly all of the new non-union jobs are minimum wage with very little benefits and even the minimum wage is being attacked as bening too generous to the employees.
swatter @ 81
Small business folks have every right to their BIAW, although I don’t think BIAW’s political activities should be funded with L & I taxes. In my opinion, us little guys still need our unions — and we have as much right to them as you have to your BIAW.
Chuck @ 82
Covered wagons have outlived their usefulness. Unions have not, because human nature, greed, and perfidy never change. Managers still try to blame their mistakes on subordinates, keep wages down so they can give themselves big raises, play nepotism and favoritism games in hirings and promotions, demand sexual favors, etc. My wife has been a shop steward for years so I know what kind of shit the union deals with in the grievances that are filed almost every day. Believe me, those workers NEED their union.
zip @ 77
“As opposed to the public employee unions: if a member doesn’t support the union’s lefty agenda, the member just keeps paying the dues. And the taxpayer funds that dues payment. Call it ‘right to make the public pay’.”
How does the taxpayer fund a public employee’s union dues payment? The dues are taken out of the employee’s pay. After the money is paid to the employee in exchange for his work, it isn’t taxpayer money anymore, it’s the employee’s money. Same as when you get paid, you’ve traded work for pay, and the money doesn’t belong to your employer anymore when you collect your paycheck, at that point it’s yours.
char @ 85
I have no problem with business people joining BIAW and paying dues to the organization. I do have a problem with BIAW being funded with L & I taxes. Are you suggesting those of us who don’t make enough to pay 100K in taxes are less deserving? We work just as hard as you do, asshole. In fact, I can show you a lot of businesses where the 25K a year laborers are sweating in the shop while their boss is out on the golf course.
Don, at 91 and 92, you just contradicted yourself with the space of about 4 minutes. If it’s union dues, it’s the members money even if the salary they get paid already includes union dues from the negotiating agreement. But if it is my small business money and I give it to BIAW, it is L&Is money?
I don’t think even you can talk yourself out of this one.
Good try at trying to diffuse so many viewpoints, though.
Shouldn’t we now be talking about Gregoire’s no middle manager left behind scenario (as in out the door)? Or the Tulalip commercial city stealing 1.5 million in benefits from the citizens of Snohomish County that is moving through Olympia?
Goldy,
Please, please, pleas post like this more often. Looks like someone’s feathers are a bit ruffled. This is the kind of post that shows how juvenile you really are.
And it shows your deep commitment to unions, which by many accounts are destroying American competitiveness in the global workforce by driving up the price of American labor, while at the same time reducing quality by proving to workers that they only need affiliate to get more pay, instead of actually producing any meritorious work at a fair market price.
This post is the kind of advertising that us conservatives only dream about.
You go Goldy. Thanks.
John@87
(GROAN>>>) Congress has been wasting money on that bet for years and it is a dry hole, the train is dead…you make me tired, John…
nearly all of the new non-union jobs are minimum wage>>>>
Can you say Microsoft? How about Triumph Industries? A very ignorant blanket statement…
Dubyasux@90
They can do without a union and your shop steward wife as well. Most companies own their perspective unions…
DON @ 92
you said:
“I do have a problem with BIAW being funded with L & I taxes. ”
the fact is DON, it is our money to begin with, not the state, not YOURS, and not L&I’s. IT IS MONEY THAT BUSINESS PAID. out of $1.46 paid per hour, the employee paid .34 cents. so the money belongs to the PEOPLE DON. THE PEOPLE! WE THE PEOPLE!
WE THE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OR THE UNIONS.
Goldy@24,
The worker’s comp is an insurance program paid for by the EMPLOYER. You know, the evil dirty capitalist burgios pig.
You can learn more by reading about it at: http://www.lni.wa.gov/ClaimsIn.....efault.asp
swatter @ 93
Too incoherent to reply to. I have no idea what you’re trying to say.
char @ 98
L & I taxes are not voluntary, and they are collected by the state. It doesn’t matter how much is paid by the employer and how much by the employee, because when L & I gets it, it becomes public money, which is not to be used by a private organization for funding political activities. If businesses want to donate to BIAW’s political fund that’s altogether different.
char @ 98
Another thought — just because the money I spend at Larry’s Market is mine to begin with doesn’t mean I can tell Larry what to do with it after I walk out with the groceries.
Sorry, but if you can’t see your own inconsistencies………
But, I’ll give you a shot, Don. If it is union members money that goes to pay dues, isn’t it the small business owners money to give to BIAW also and not L&Is?
Or is your argument that all the money belongs to the State? I think it is your argument.
Goldwater Republican, my …….!
swatter @ 102
Let’s see, how many times have I posted in this thread that I have no problem with businesses donating THEIR OWN MONEY to BIAW? I guess you just choose to be blind or not read. My ONLY objection is to BIAW diverting L & I TAX MONEY into their political slush fund.
Jeff B. @ 94
“it shows your deep commitment to unions, which by many accounts are destroying American competitiveness in the global workforce by driving up the price of American labor”
Well Jeff B., we know where you stand, don’t we? You’re against unions because you think American labor should be paid LESS so business owners (already by far the richest segment of society) can make even MORE for themselves off the sweat of their employees. You want us all to work in sweatshops for Third World wages. Fuck you!
I’m surprised no union members have posted any comments on this thread yet. I am a member of Laborers Local 341 out of Anchorage, AK. The people there are mostly good guys, and the Laborers have always been good to me. I wouldn’t work a dangerous job without being represented by a union. But you horsesass people don’t know what you are talking about. Here’s why:
1) You cannot work in the contruction trades, except residential, without being in a union. Period. There is nothing voluntary about union membership.
2) All unions are money laundering machines for the Democratic party. I guess that’s cool if you are a democrat.
3) Political donations are NOT voluntary.
4) There is NO transparency in union governance or finances.
5) They can and do beat the shit out of people who don’t toe the line. Seen it with my own eyes.
6) When we think things are bad, we talk about how much worse the Teamsters and Electricians Unions are.
Don’t put down my grammar and spelling, you Seattle elitists!
Hey Dubyasux,
I’m a skilled white collar worker, so I won’t be working in a sweat shop. I took the time and money to get a valuable education so that I wouldn’t have to burden the US with union wage hikes to earn the living that I desire.
Apparently you feel that you have some right to high pay in relation to simiarly skilled workers who will do the same job for less money.
This is the United States buddy. If you want a gauranteed wage and everyone at the same least common denominator, you can move to Europe or Canada and you can probably survive quite nicely without even working.
Here in the US there are no gaurantees, it’s sink or swim.
Business owers should be making the most money, they are taking the biggest risks in putting their own lives on the line to acquire capital, start a business, keep employees happy and yet productive, etc. It’s not easy and that’s why they are rewarded. What’s easy is coming in to a high paid union job, especially a state employee union job and collecting a paycheck for doing less work than non union counterparts in other countries, with little or no risk of ever losing your job.
It’s survival of the fittest, and all you can do to defend yourself is spew profanity. Thanks for the entertainment.
Dubyasux. If us wealthy business owners did not buy plane
tickets travelling to exotic golf resorts, who would buy the
planes you build. Union guys all have campers, and cant decide
if Ford is better than Dodge.
Don & Goldy–
I told you this was going to happen if the LEFTISTS went to far in trying to undermine small business. BIAW has a Board of Directors who are ALL small business men & women. You 2 idiots hate big corporations and small businesses. You are pathetic.
Don–
30 year government hack attorney who couldn’t make it in the real world…Don told us in 10 years in the private sector, the most he made was $1000/year. Don is a pathetic loser who collected his salary and pension KNOWING his job was worthless. Now Don is BITTER towards any of us who have made it in the private sector. Don also bragged that he was a Judge. Judge of what Don???? The best outfit in the Fremont Gay Pride Parade??
Don is incapable of understanding the struggles small business owners face. Don wants everyone to work for the government.
WHY??
Because Don is a LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Don–
There ARE other jobs in the private sector besides being an AMWAY Distributor!
On your tombstone it will read:
Here lies Don-
A pathetic loser to the end.
Failed at AMWAY.
Turned to Socialism and Blogging.
Hasn’t had a decent piece of ass in 50 years!!
Don’t put down my grammar and spelling, you Seattle elitists!
Nice pre emptive grammerical defense.
I am a member of Laborers Local 341 out of Anchorage
I am going to take a wild guess that Local 341 pays a but more than minimal wage.
Well if so, that makes you a lefty who is making Alaska a bad place to do business don’t you know. If you would accept minimum wage with the union, your company would make more money and….well…that would be good and right.
Hefty @ 105
Why don’t you work for Wal-Mart? No unions there.
Jeff B. @ 106
Your bullshit sticks in my craw for a couple reasons. One, I’ve been a business owner so don’t lecture me about risking capital etc. Two, as a state employee I worked 60 hours a week while getting paid for 40, and was paid about 1/3 to 1/2 of what my private sector peers were earning, so don’t lecture me about easy, high-paying state jobs because you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
mark @ 107
Go with Ford, no contest.
cynical @ 108
Yeah but I provided three dozen jobs for 10 years and always met payroll.
Cynical @ 109
I understand you like ’em plump.
Hefty — you bitch about the union, but you take the union wages and benefits, don’t you? If you hate the union so much, you should go work non-union construction for $8.50 an hour.
Unions can be good. Unions can be bad. Unions can be good and bad. Rather like people!
Come on Union Business Agent, I have paid my non-union folks $30/hour at the same time your folks were making $22/hr for the same work and I guaranteed full-time work, vacations and sick leave and medical.
I can’t remember the last time I paid someone $8.50 per hour. Isn’t WalMart nearly $10 on the average?
Blow smoke; it works!!
But as Chee says, if I want to build a Kingdome, where would I get the workers if I didn’t have the union hall? But a house or small commercial? Come on!! The private subcontractors work great- one or two men shops with the owners doing the work. The United States of America at its best!!
Dear Erik and Union Business Agent:
The biggest lie you guys promulgate (sp? grammar?) is that without unions, we would all be making minimum wage.
For residential construction in Washington State(which means non-union)the average wage for unskilled construction site laborers in 2004 was $16.90 per hour. (Source: Reed Contruction Data, Means Detailed Construction Costs, 2004 Edition). Wage rates for more skilled jobs go up from there. The average for carpenters was $23.90.
What happened to your “reality based community? Why can’t you make your point without the use of total bullshit? Any reader of this website can walk out of his house to the nearest home construction site. Ask anybody swinging a hammer or a paint nozzle what he’s making – even a guy on a shovel. See if you could hire him away for $8.50 an hour. Ha!
I said the Laborers were always good to me, and yes, I got more money than I would have if I hadn’t been in the union. But you ignore my point. There is nothing voluntary about the union. The BIAW, on the other hand, IS a voluntary organization. So Horsesass, please explain again WHY they are the fucking fascists and the unions aren’t.
I paid my small business framers $50/hour and I felt I got a bargain on my new house.
My small business electricians are close to $100/hour, etc. etc.
hefty @ out to lunch
The only reason the non union side is paid the high wages they are paid today, is they have to to keep their hands from going to the union work.
Any responsible company, will pay their guys a fair wage today, but that “fair wage” came to be known as fair, by the union making it fair.
Wages drop fast, when there is no pressure to keep them up. Just look at any right to work state, more jobs, lower wages.
The pressure on wages in a right to work state, is down, the pressure on wages in a union shop state, is up.
Id rather work in a union state.
You would too, evidently, if you chose union over non union.
Oh, and to speak for all “real” union employees in the fine state of Washington, fuck you, you rat.
The union sure doesn’t need any hypocrits like you.
Take the wage, and bite the hand that feeds you. Nice guy.
swatter @ 118
Let’s see here, your argument is that unions are bad because non-union workers enjoy higher pay and benefits than union workers, is that right? This may apply to YOUR case (or maybe not), but to the extent it’s intended as a generalization, it belongs in the “Right Wing Bullshit” bin.
swatter @ 20
I pay the garage that fixes my car $70 an hour for labor but that doesn’t mean the mechanics get $70 an hour. You seem to be pushing the ludicrous argument that non-union workers do better than union workers. We should all just trust the boss to do the fair and right thing!
Hefty @ 19
A house recently built on my block was constructed by a local high-volume tract home builder and all the workers were immigrants. I didn’t see a single white guy on the job site except for the concrete, plumbing, and electrical contractors. I’d be willing to bet those Laotian and Vietnamese carpenters and roofers weren’t getting paid any $16.90 an hour by this guy.
Don, you seem to think everyone is an employee. My guys were small business owners and did their own work. A couple of the subs had employees, but the bulk of my work was done by small business owners.
In my job, I wasn’t worried about unions. I was worried about losing them to someone else who offered more, and since I am from a lower priced neighborhood, my employees were paid to compete with the Seattle work force.
Also, so you don’t get confused, one situation is my own business and the other is the workers on my house.
And, only you could think I don’t like unions. I am just pointing out the value of the BIAW and you want to make it look like I am doing union bashing. Unions have a purpose, but mainly, they have outlived their usefulness.
I have talked to many diehard union workers (mostly family) and no one knows exactly where their money goes.
Dear Diggindude:
The namecalling has really intensified. I must have scored a point. I will try to answer you, though.
“The only reason the non union side is paid the high wages they are paid today, is they have to to keep their hands from going to the union work.” I can’t see how this sentence makes any sense at all. Is there a single building trades union hall, anywhere in this state, that has open contruction jobs available, and no one to fill them? Show me one. It is damn hard to get a union construction job in this state or anywhere else, and it always has been. How can you say non-union workers will flock into union positions? The union won’t take them.
Please name a right-to-work state for me and I’ll be happy to share the average non-union labor rates. I have the data. Yes, it will be lower than for a union state, but not that much. I think you’ll be embarrassed. It certainly won’t be $8.50, even in a state with no minmum wage.
For the third time, I did not “choose” to join the union. If you want to work heavy constuction you have no choice. I chose a job and the owners required me to join the union. It’s not voluntary. This has been my point all along.
I don’t claim to “speak” for anybody, and I don’t know what you mean by “real” union people. I have worked thousands of hours at union jobs over many years, on many projects, paid my dues, voted in the elections, and I’m friends with the officers at my local. Is that real enough for you?
“The union sure doesn’t need any hypocrits like you.
Take the wage, and bite the hand that feeds you. Nice guy.” This makes no sense at all. What do you mean about the union “needing” me or anyone else? Are you saying only Democrats should join? I can tell you that membership at my union and all the other craft unions in the Pacific Northwest has been steadily dropping over the last several years. Are democrats and lefties dissappearing? And what do you mean by the hand that feeds me? I work hard. I work with my hands. I also pay a huge amount of dues. As I said, there is no transparency or accountability for where those dues go. So why am I a hypocrite?
Dear Dubyasux:
“A house recently built on my block was constructed by a local high-volume tract home builder and all the workers were immigrants. I didn’t see a single white guy on the job site except for the concrete, plumbing, and electrical contractors. I’d be willing to bet those Laotian and Vietnamese carpenters and roofers weren’t getting paid any $16.90 an hour by this guy.”
I’d like to take that bet, if there was a way to make it stick. What is your point about white guys vs. Laotian and Vietnamese guys, etc? Sounds racist.
Anyway, my original suggestion was made in good faith. Walk over there and ask those guys what they are being paid. I can assure you that carpenters and roofers, of any race, and at any company, are getting closer to $16.90, and probably more, than they are to $8.50.
But what are you trying to say here, anyway?
Dear Horsesass:
Very cool, looks like I’ve had the last word on this particular thread. Even Dubyasux and Diggindue seem to have caught on that name calling and foul language don’t beat facts.
Even you, Horsesass, need to drop the offensive language and come back to reality. I have been a union member for many years, and even before that knew many of the leading figures in Seattle’s labor community, such as Del Castle and Arnie Weinmeister, personally.
The fact is that all the crafts with the strongest union representation have been losing members and jobs for decades. Even now, there are not enough jobs for those few still left. Did the BIAW destroy all those unions? Come on. The union organized portion of the WA workforce would be in the single digits now if it weren’t for the Teachers and other government employees. Whether those jobs count as “workers” is something you can decide for yourself.
But the fact remains that in all the industries where a person builds something, or works with his hands, the unions are steadily shrinking in numbers and in influence. And this is despite the biggest building boom this state has seen since WWII.
I am going to say it one more time, Horsesass. The BIAW is a voluntary organization. The unions are not. Everything you accuse the BIAW of doing has been done by labor unions in this state — buying politicians, loopholes, etc. You have to do a better job of supporting your accusations of fascism.
Last point. Even if the labor unions in this state were strong and growing, for you on the left and in the Democratic party to assume that you speak for us, that your values are the same as ours, or worse, that we will vote the way you tell us to, is simple arrogance. We don’t buy your socialist ideas any more, if we ever did.
Hefty freeloader
Im not even going to take the time to go to the gov. sites for you, but it probably looks like this:
http://www.aflcio.org/aboutuni.....antage.pdf
Hefty seems like Realass’s or christmas ghouls, or the infamous cynicalidiots ‘consort’. Take it easy on him/her as they ‘know not what they say’ as they are ‘dominated’ by idiots
Duby,
If you are still checking this thread, what was the name of the local high volume builder with the immigrant crew? I am wondering if it is the same developer that built my condo in Lynnwood, Sundquist Homes.
Received a judgement against the developer in Snohomish Superior Court of $1.9 million. Developer threatened bankruptcy and seems his assets are judgment proof. No flashing around windows, building paper applied incorrectly so have water intrusion and rot, cement unsealed, unstable decks and stairways, drainage over garage improperly installed. All on building constructed in 1999 and now requires rebuilding.
Developers insurance company, Mutual of Enumclaw claims to have an exclusion for faulty workmanship. They have been winning similar claims in King County. Can you imagine that defense for a medical misadventure?
So far the homeowners are left to pay for this. If the BIAW has left over money they should consider starting a fund for consumers victimized by shoddy builders.
I love it when I have the last word