You know it was a bad night for the Republicans when the best spin they could muster over on (un)Sound Politics was this feeble flip of the political dreidle from the site’s soundest contributor, Matt Rosenberg:
A bit of good news tonight… For the first time in quite a while, an out-of-the closet Republican has been elected in a Seattle-wide contest, albeit a non-partisan race.
Um… yeah… elected to a seat on a board that Seattlites also voted to dissolve. That’s some consolation prize Matt.
But of course, the blow was even worse than the righties are letting on, for they didn’t just lose a couple of high profile initiatives and a coveted county executive race… they lost their entire campaign strategy for 2006 and beyond. Initiative 912 was cleverly launched last May as the election contest controversy came to a head, and from day one it was always pitched as an opportunity to send a message to “Queen Christine” and the Democrats who they accuse of stealing last year’s excruciatingly close gubernatorial election.
Likewise, the focus of the Republicans’ campaign against Ron Sims was always the so-called “mess” in King County Records & Elections, with our good friend Stefan, the Pied Piper of GOP paranoids, focusing his relentless efforts on proving a conspiracy theory that seems to flow from the premise that Republicans would actually dominate state and county politics if not for the widespread fraud and corruption in KCRE.
Way back during the election contest trial, during a debate with Stefan on the John Carlson Show, I argued that the GOP’s lawsuit had long since ceased to be about who really won the 2004 election, that it was now focused mainly on defeating Sims in 2005. And this strategy was never clearer than in Stefan’s own election-day call to action:
The choice between David Irons and Ron Sims could not be more clear. A vote for Irons is a vote for integrity and accountability. A vote for Sims is a vote for corruption, fraudulent elections, ridiculous boondoggles and a culture of secrecy and retaliation. … If you want more of Dean Logan and his fraud, dishonesty, disregard for the law and refusal to take responsibility for his work, then by all means vote for Ron Sims. If you’re as sick and tired of reading about Dean Logan as I am sick and tired of writing about him and you want to restore clean elections, then vote for David Irons.
I’m not sure who followed whose lead, but Stefan, Carlson, Kirby Wilbur, Chris Vance and the rest of the GOP leadership seemed to share the same delusion… they confused their own anger and disappointment over Dino Rossi’s loss with that of rank and file voters. How else to explain the arrogant overreaching blunder of the GOP’s fraudulent voter challenge stunt just days before the election?
The framing was clear. An Irons victory would be payback for Gregoire’s disputed win last November, and I-912 was always about sending a bold message that would weaken her administration, paving the way towards big Republican wins in 2006 and beyond.
Well… voters did send a message last night, and it wasn’t exactly the message the R’s had intended: policy trumps politics. In reelecting Sims by a margin that anywhere else in our fractured political terrain would be considered a crushing landslide, King County voters resoundingly rejected the GOP’s year-long smear campaign. And in refusing I-912’s tax cut — not in a squeaker, but by a surprisingly comfortable spread — voters sent a clear message to both the governor and Democratic and Republican legislators alike, that they will not punish elected officials for governing responsibly, even if it means enduring a little financial pain.
It’s hard to blame Irons and the KC GOP for adopting the kind of “anybody but Sims” strategy they ran; what else could they do with such a deeply flawed, totally unqualified candidate running against an experienced, competent and likable incumbent? But John and Kirby should be kicking themselves for jumping the gun on a long term political strategy that has clearly backfired.
Back in May, Kirby told me that one of his main reasons for sponsoring I-912 was so that we could have a public debate over transportation issues… a debate that he felt the Legislature had short circuited. Well, thanks to I-912, we’ve had that debate, and Kirby and his cohorts have lost. The KVI crowd had attempted to wield an incipient gas tax revolt over the heads of elected officials, but their election-contest-forged Sword of Damocles has proven to be little more than a rubber dagger. On this issue at least, voters have given their stamp of approval to Olympia, and rather than weakening Gregoire, I-912 has only enhanced her stature as a leader who is willing and able to take controversial positions on tough issues… and come out on top.
I-912, born out of the ratings spike that accompanied the election contest trial, was intended to be a continuation of the GOP’s relentless propaganda campaign to undermine Gov. Gregoire’s legitimacy, and yet another step down the road towards Rossi’s eventual succession. If the initiative had passed, there is no doubt it would have been politically damaging, but its failure not only leaves Gregoire one of last night’s biggest winners, it leaves Rossi one of its biggest losers… not just by default, but by his total unwillingness to step out in front on the most contentious issue on the state ballot.
As one political wag put it, “when Rossi was asked to lead, he ran away,” whereas Gregoire personally championed the transportation package from the day she brokered the bill out of legislative deadlock, to the moment the last ballot was cast. Gregoire spent her political capital and was rewarded handsomely, whereas Rossi refused to even speak his mind.
Last night was a huge win for both Sims and Gregoire, the two former primary rivals having their political fortunes oddly intertwined in yet another election. So it was especially gratifying to watch the two, side-by-side before the cameras, jointly proclaiming victory.
The coming year promises more bruising campaigns, over land use restrictions, control of the Legislature, Sen. Maria Cantwell’s re-election and other races… and everything we saw last night suggests that Matt, Stefan and their unsound comrades will have at least as much trouble spinning next year’s election night as they did this year’s.
Boy, do I feel good today.
The wingnuts took one right in the chest!
as I suggested to the Guv’s Communications Director this morning, let’s not forget to offer praise and thanks for those civic-minded Republican legislators who ignored the party line and worked with the majority for the betterment of the state as a whole. They also put their reputations at stake, and they should be recognized for resisting the siren call of the talk radio wingnut.
A round of kickbacks, for all my friennnnnnnds!!
:)
There had better be some roads getting fixed around here. Did
you guys hear, SULU is gay!
One thing that hasn’t been talked about much is what part is the utter republican failure last night, did the right wing’s attempt to illegally hamper the vote when Vance’s surrogate signed her name under penalty of perjury and challenged people’s right to vote? Did that backfire or what?
Thank God that 912 was defeated, we will no longer have to be scared witless by all the imminent disasters that would have been blamed on it’s passage. No more I-90 rockslides, Alaska Way Viaduct collapses or SR-520 sinkings!!
Oh, and by the way, all of you tax-loving Seattle libs – enjoy paying off the $150 million debt for your monorail wet dream!
Poor little Rick. So hurt his hate wasn’t legitimized last night. Let me guess…you live in a county eat of the mountains adsolutely and utterly dependant on “lib” tax money.
Maybe your politicians need a blow job to relax and appeal to the voters…oh, wait, Jim West has that covered.
Will the Rossi watch continue?
Will Rossi come out and now say he supported turning down I-912?
Oh Rick…
I suppose we’ll let you have that one. After all, after the disaster that was the national election of 2004, you “somewhat” let us complain…so I’ll just give you the same courtesy.
I’ll just rest on the fact that we have a competent King County Executive, not a head case who man handles his MOTHER! I’ll also rest on the fact that our streets will see better improvement under Gov. Gregoire and the gas tax.
It’s okay, you’ll thank us later. ;-)
This is just the beginning my friends. The liberal backlash has only just begun…just wait until 2006. I earnestly believe we WILL rise again and begin to wrest governmental control from those righties and work our way back to days of great prosperity under Bill Clinton! Oh boy, am I excited!!!
Jeff, comeon
all you got is a entrenched politician. Yeah irons is flawed and Sims for many of you is good enough. the intense outrage over his policies by the right, didn’t spill over to automatic dems in urban seattle.
Guessing that Logan is pretty happy. business as usual.
Rick has a point, there better be some fixing going on. A lot of the voters turning down I-912 were either under the believe or made to believe by scare tactics that this money is necessary to fix roads, stop congestion and solve the KC and WA traffic problems. The anti 912 campaign did a very good job presenting this message. However, as we all know, there is no real transportation plan in sight and certainly not a consistant plan in the books. So, now, the voters, under the assumption that the 9 cents will fix everything, are waiting.
And waiting they will be. Most of the money will be spent on impact studies, research, etc. (just look at the money spent so far for the 520 bridge….to study all sorts of things, but no solution). Fixing our conjestion problem isn’t easy, I admit that, but the voters do expect a solution and expect a solution soon….if not, this whole thing could backfire quickly
Goldy’s basic theme is important. The GOP’s entire strategy was to delegitimize Govenor Gregoire. John Carlson more than once admitted that 912 was an attempt to get back at here. 912 was about sending a message to Olympia, not about sound policy.
But, in the end, the voters wanted sound policy instead of a message. While I will never be surprised by the Dems ability to blow a sure thing, The GOP would have been in a much stonger position in the long run if they had simply complained about gas tax instead of trying to gut it and the much needed construction it funded. Instead, they decided to hurt part of their base (buisnesses) and show the weakness of their candidates (Rossi failing to take a position) in hopes of destroying the Govenor. Now, they can’t even complain. What in the heat of May and June seemed like the road to their recovery has instead looks now like the guarentee of a second Gregoire term.
I am proud to be a progressive, liberal Democrat today. Twenty years of having Republican ideology rammed down my throat was beginning to taste bad.
I look forward to the confirmation of Alito. Our Democratic senators should use the filibuster. Our Republican senators will try the nuclear option and they will find, I am now positive, that the American people believe in fair play first and politics second.
I know I got carried away, but damn……this feels so good!
And by the way, smoke ’em if you got ’em, because in thirty days, I can eat anywhere without you fouling my air. (I am sure the Republicans think this Initiative was a liberal plot to prevent them relaxing and clearing their heads so that they could think more clearly. Only problem, they could not think clearly beforehand).
A toast to Liberal Drinkers everywhere! (damn this Kool-Aid is tasty).
Dug
LeftTurn @ 4
Not for certain sure it backfired, but the evidence seems to indicate it ticked off more then a view voters. Certainly the margin of victory for Sims was way beyond the challenged votes, I mean perjured affidavits submitted by the KCGOP.
Mostly I think MR. Cynical was correct. Bush was elected twice. And he really will set the Republican party back 20 years.
Hahhaahh FUCK YOU KVI! I haven’t got a chance to call in and tell them how fucking stupid they are. Carlson is a fucking failure… Nice try dip shit, maybe you should move to a red state. You might fit in better with a bunch of white trash red necks.
by the way, in answer to several emails……My name is Carl Grossman and I am not a “chickenshit hiding behind a weird name.”
Let me help you though…… DugoutNut = Dugout (baseball, Mariners , Red Sox, etc etc… Nut (peanuts, right wingnuts) Put it together and you have my term for Baseball Nut.
Carl Grossman
Another minor point about the election results last night: I do not mind so much that 912 failed because 900 passed. Now the auditor will have the ability to do actual performance audits on government entities that should have some teeth to them.
Now, I guess we all have to fight for our own pet projects. I for one expect that the Cross Base Freeway will actually be built! I’ve already started harassing my legislators.
Looking at the vote totals by county on I-900 (performance audits) i see that most of the counties voting AGAINST were east of the Cascades Republican strongholds. Anybody have a theory on this?
Shame, shame. Don’t think you personally and this one-sided blog changed anything there Goldy; despite what you might think, you are in fact not that all-important. One good thing that comes out of this whole shitty mess is that much needed I-900 from good ole buddy Timmy passed with flying colors. That, and all hope is not lost for I-912 yet. Maybe the “Governor’s” twat will smell better now, but I sincerely doubt it. That’s what happens when elections are stolen, mysterious ballots are found in the basement of the KC elections office in the middle of the fucking night, Dean “I-couldn’t-find-my-own-asshole-with-a-flashlight-and-a-mirror” Logan is still allowed to continue his reign of incompetence and corruption, and when stupid pleibs fall for BS scare-tactics on an issue. Good job, you led the dumb sheep to the pasture of heavenly fecal matter. Tax spend, tax spend………….Maybe use some of that excess revenue and buy some self-help books so that people don’t want to smash you in the mouth with a brick. Good day.
HaHa @ 7
No, I’m sorry to spoil you’re stereotype. I moved to the Puget Sound region 26 years ago and I’ve never seen such a crappy prioritization of transportation dollars as this region has grown; the Sound Transit light rail to nowhere, the unneeded monorail (all we got was a set of plans), a new $700 million dollar Narrows Bridge that does not add even one general purpose lane, etc, etc. The one thing that our transportation “planners” prioritize is feel-good publicity and artwork for transit stations.
Besides, with 900, hopefully it’ll make the WSDOT be accountable with $$$$ for once. Although it isn’t hard to hide excess money either. Tug of war for once in this once great state. Are you ready? Hehe.
Goldy,
How’s it feel to look at your tool bag every morning when you take a piss and know that there’s nothing in it? You would make a great replica of queen Cristine and here smelly ass twat. Maybe since your gas tax initiative passed queen Cristine will buy you all some fabreze to freshen your breath after all of the shit she has been feeding you. It doesn’t really matter anyway because when it comes down to a real fight you can kick a liberal in the teeth and they are to chicken shit to hit back and thats why they will always lose.
@ 23
Fight this liberal @ 7:00 PM, Westlake Center TONIGHT then, champ
Unless you are too pussy, pussy.
oops @ 22
Richard Ortloff @ 22
“How’s it feel to look at your tool bag every morning when you take a piss and know that there’s nothing in it?”
What the fuck? I guess this is another mixed metaphor to add to my collection, although it doesn’t even make sense as such. Truely, written by a moron.
“You would make a great replica of queen Cristine and here smelly ass twat.”
What the fuck???? This doesn’t make any sense either, except is does seem to suggest that Ricky has a sexual identity issue.
“Maybe since your gas tax initiative passed queen Cristine will buy you all some fabreze to freshen your breath after all of the shit she has been feeding you.”
Ahhh…I see. Ricky is on Crack. Hey, you fucking idiot, there was no “Gas tax initiative” that passed. Are you for real?
“It doesn’t really matter anyway because when it comes down to a real fight you can kick a liberal in the teeth and they are to chicken shit to hit back and thats why they will always lose.”
Hmmmm…is Ricky really a screen name for David Irons Jr? Your violent tendencies betray you. Either that, or you are just some high-school age punk.
The trolls are bitter and ornery today, aren’t they?
Hey what kind of Cheese goes best with that this Right Wing Whine?
Richard @ 23
Man, you really need to relax. I don’t think even Cynical on a bad day has conjured as many inappropriate images.
Be an adult. How much respect do you think the Fringe Lefties get when they trot out Bush photos with fangs and chant profanities? “Rage issues” call for medication.
Redirect your misguided frustration down at the gym and then come back with some ideas of how to get the GOP back on track. Blind anger and name-calling doesn’t win elections.
I’m not sure anything can save the republican party now… I think its time to stick a fork in ’em.
Ricky MUST be a republican. He’s interested in domestic violence, seems to have perverted sexual fantasies and dreams of fights that involve SOMEONE, ANYONE doing the fighting other than himself.
Man the repubs are really moaning and whining over this one. This must be what it’s like to watch something die.
Let’s not all kid ourselves. We still are pretty much voiceless cogs in a brutal plutocracy. I hope they don’t figure out a way to defuse the blogosphere. It’s the last vestige of the 1st amendment left.
Well, given that the GOP is trying hard to convince themself that they didn’t do anything wrong yesterday, I could not ask for anything else from this election.
Go ahead wingnuts, continue thinking everything is fine. Continue drinking your koolaid with the Hannity’s and the Limbaugh’s. Continue to believe the paranoid conspiracy theories of Sharansky and the like. Continue groveling to your base while ignoring the middle. Continue to support torture and lying to the public. Yep, that is the path to victory. You definitely proved it last night.
Robert @ #28: Limburger. Soft and stinky. Also leaves a bad taste on your mouth.
windie, windie, windie…
It is that kind of thinking that will set you back another election cycle. This is not a massive ideological shift. Did you expect KingCo to do anything but vote Dem and for Dem causes? The two “big” governorships were seat retentions, not gains. Did you expect CA to vote for clearly Republican propositions?
Just like Bush didn’t “win” 2004 (Kerry lost it), Sims and the Dem machine didn’t exactly have any trumpet-and-fanfare triumphs, either.
Now, if you’re talking about Richard (above) as a shining example of the GOP, I’ll remind you that your side has Roger, Donna & Lucy — each of whom can be plenty deranged and profane.
Now, you may ask why I would try and keep the Dems from imploding. The reason is simple. Healthy and vigorous debate between strong candidates on both (all 3 or 4?) sides on the issues of the day can only be a win for the people. If the Dems get sloppy/lazy or go Radical Left, the Hard Right will not only win again, but will take it as a mandate. Why do you think Hillary dives toward the middle? Because that is where a showdown with Giuliani or McCain will happen. To win the game, you have to be IN the game.
You’ve won but still cannot stop with the ill manners and name calling.
What a pity.
Progressive candidates won all around the country, Mark. In Dover PA, eight of them knocked eight fundies off the school board. In Tuscon, two women–including a lesbian–booted incumbents and created a progressive female majority. The Bush-backing mayor of St. Paul, MN was kicked out on his ass by a progressive. And in your own state, Somers, Stuart and Chang all took home the prize. In VA, Kaine ran a campaign to the left of Mark Warner, and exceeded Warner’s performance in 2001. He won suburbs and exurbs of Virginia no Democrat had done in 50 years. In Maine, a gay rights repeal was soundly defeated.
And watch what happens to the House budget bill vote Thursday. All those wavering Republicans will suddenly decide to vote no, or there won’t even be a vote. Rick Santorum and JD Hayworth are both saying “no thanks” to Bush visits.
Keep thinking status quo. Please keep thinking it.
don’t get me wrong…
The left (the democrats by default, sadly) will have to work to make gains… But they seem to have woken up to this idea, themselves.
Gore 2000, Kerry 2004, Gregoire 2004, those are all candidates that, to my mind, were lost (or In Christine’s case waaay too close) because the Democrats let it happen. The let the right frame the debate, they didn’t properly reply to the lies… They ran placid, wimpy campaigns.
But lets move forward to 2005… We’re not seeing that. We’re seeing vibrant, active groups working overtime on the ground to win on these issues. The left has woken up, and whats more, the public is finally catching on to the fact that they’ve been fooled for the last several years.
You can pretend that nothing has changed, but the Right will have a harder sell next time, and it will be easier on the Left. Combined with the fact that the left is more active (and apparently quite energized by the the election yesterday), it spells trouble for the rotten, undead shell that passes for the Republican party these days.
TJ @ 37
In the state that gave us Baghdad Jim, nothing Left surprises me, so that isn’t such a big deal. The other races, I’m not as familiar with, but the Dems are developing a solid strategy by building from the ground (smaller offices) up.
However, I can’t ignore the headline of lib newspaper The Village Voice who said:
CENTRIST Democrats Notch Big Win [emphasis mine]
http://www.villagevoice.com/ne.....890,2.html
consider what the Voice would call a “centrist,” Mark. :)
What a bunch of sore losers around here.
It was a good night for the Dems, but I not as good as many of them want to think. I think nationally they are taking too much from winning the NJ and VA governorships. In NJ they’ve either had a Dem or liberal Rep for a long time (much like WA). Corzine is insanely rich and willing to spend millions to get elected. In VA the Dem ran on a pretty conservative platform.
Locally, I was surprised by the margin I-912 lost. I do think this will come back to haunt the Dems, because the promised congestion improvement will not happen.
by Goldy, 11/09/2005, 11:37 AM
“Back in May, Kirby told me that one of his main reasons for sponsoring I-912 was so that we could have a public debate over transportation issues… a debate that he felt the Legislature had short circuited. Well, thanks to I-912, we’ve had that debate, and Kirby and his cohorts have lost.”
The debate was skewed in part because the No group distorted the purpose of the tax increase. A good political strategy, but bad policy.
http://www.voteno912.org/
“What would the supporters of I-912 do? NOTHING! This is an initiative that ignores reality.
It ignores the daily traffic congestion outlined above.” (my emphasis)
Sound Transit will be back asking for $13.2 billion, which will mostly be for light rail, which will not improve congestion significantly, either.
That’s a lot of money to spend on transportation and not address the #1 issue in the minds of many voters in Snohomish, King and Pierce counties. Especially after telling them a No vote on I-912 was a vote to improve congestion.
by Goldy, 11/09/2005, 11:37 AM
“Last night was a huge win for both Sims and Gregoire”
Hardly a huge win for Sims, his support was down from 60%+ in 2001 to 54% this election. I’m not sure what you think about Santos Contreras, but he certainly doesn’t have the name recognition of Irons. Gregoire comes out looking better, but we’ll see how much good will this buys her in 2008. Especially if the Dems take I-912 as license to tax and spend.
Comment by torridjoe— 11/9/05 @ 3:41 pm
“consider what the Voice would call a “centrist,” Mark.”
From the link:
“Kaine, a devout Catholic, showed Democrats can play that game, too. He ran openly against the death penalty in this red state. He is against abortion. He adroitly used religion in his campaign, noting in a radio ad, ‘The Bible teaches we can accomplish great things when we work together.'”
So a candidate who quotes the Bible, is pro-life, and a death penalty advocate is a centrist. I’ll remember that.
Carlson Freeman Junior just announced what he lost yesterday – he said we will need to wait ten more years to have a public discussion about Freeman’s 1970s era freeway dream scheme to pave our corner of the planet and end funding for transit. I thought Freeman said “eliminate congestion now” – for just $22 billion! Oh no! By the time we ever get to that debate, Freeman’s dream will cost us all far, far more.
I applaud John’s commitment to end the stupid fight over this nutty proposal for the next decade. Perhaps John finally realized – thanks to Ron Sims’ deft TV spots and how they helped take down David Irons – what others less dependent on Freeman have known for a long time: mr. moneybags does more harm than good when it comes to electing Republicans.
Maybe we should encourage Freeman to keep it up! Say it aint so John.
cfirst @ 42
Kaine is not a death penalty advocate; quite the opposite. And you can’t single out those three and call him a centrist in hopes that you can play gotcha with truly conservative candidates who hold the same views. An otherwise liberal candidate who holds those views is indeed a centrist. A wingnut who holds those views, plus even nuttier views, is still a wingnut.
Mark1 @ 20
“Tax and spend” is how any and all governments provide services. It’s how the roads are now going to be fixed/built. It doesn’t happen any other way. Duh. Don’t tax and don’t spend, and Washington slides back into the Third World with Alabama and Mississippi. Not on our watch.
And pretending that today’s Republicans are the party of “small government” or fiscal responsibility is a dodge that will never work again, boyo. Godd luck peddling it.
ConservativeFirst @ 41
It was my understanding that the taxes being repealed by I-912 had no relation to Sound Transit. I read the DOT site. I don’t think you are correct if you are claiming a relationship.
Well said, Goldy.
Responsible refucklicans can take heart over the victory of Dave Kaplan in the Des Moines City Council race–he’s a log cabineer. Dave defeated a proto-fascist conspiracy monger even more to the right in the election, and withstood some pressure from local 33rd refucklicans who insist on running feckless paranoids as candidates for municipal office.
Kemper is a family friend… (Frat brother to th’ old man~ back when he was a state rep, somebody tried to pressure him by threatening my dad’s job))
And it always appalls me to read what he actually promotes in his politics…
(This is kinda apropos of nothing, but whenever I see his name it creeps me out!)
@23
Hey Richard, why don’t you try picking up a liberal bunny by the ears and see what happens?
Dems retained Corrupt County… congratulations.
Interesting though, how in all the back patting and liberal gloating there is NO MENTION of the HUGE rebuke demigod icons Soros and Moore were handed along with their ASS in Ohio.
NARY A WORD about Texas… you remember, the outright BAN on homosexual “marriage”.
NO ADMISSION that the governor “wins” were a no surprise zero sum game… the GOP holds the same number of governors mansions after the race as before the race.
So celebrate little fringies, you earned it…you had a true achievement on election day… just like waking up in the morning and NOT finding a nose full of zits.
Comment by torridjoe— 11/9/05 @ 4:07 pm
“Kaine is not a death penalty advocate; quite the opposite.”
Advocate was a poor choice of words on my part. Kaine certainly isn’t the opposite of an advocate since he isn’t an opponent of the death penalty either. This is a contrary position to the national Dem platform. His positions on abortion and religion are also contrary to the national Democratic positions. So pinning hopes that the Dems will take back the House and Senate really mean that in conservative states, Dems need to run like Reps on at least three key issues.
In addition Kaine also had the support of outgoing Gov. Warner (another conservative Democrat), who is immensely popular (70% approval rating).
“An otherwise liberal candidate who holds those views is indeed a centrist.”
So he represents what Dems used to be, before the fringe left hijacked the party. I’d agree that’s a more centrist view.
“A wingnut who holds those views, plus even nuttier views, is still a wingnut.”
So a person with nutty views is a nut? What a profound observation. Besides the three issues discussed here what position on what issues make one a wing nut?
Kaine’s not an opponent of the death penalty? Check your records; you’re wrong.
Comment by Curtis D. Love— 11/9/05 @ 4:15 pm
“It was my understanding that the taxes being repealed by I-912 had no relation to Sound Transit. I read the DOT site. I don’t think you are correct if you are claiming a relationship.”
I didn’t make the claim Sound Transit taxes were tied to I-912. My point was that neither the 9.5 cent gas tax increase or additional Sound Transit money will relieve congestion in a signficant way.
seadog @ 12 “A lot of the voters turning down I-912 were either under the believe or made to believe by scare tactics that this money is necessary to fix roads,”
Yeah, those stupid majority of BUSINESSES must have been really hoodwinked. You moron.
by ‘point’ C1st means ‘unsupported assertion’
They’re not the same, y’know
Comment by torridjoe— 11/9/05 @ 4:47 pm
“Kaine’s not an opponent of the death penalty? Check your records; you’re wrong.”
He’s said he’d carry out executions following Virgina’s laws. Virgina is only second to Texas in number of executions. I fail to see how that makes him an opponent of the death penalty.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01314.html
“Kaine has said that, if elected, he would follow Virginia law in enforcing the death penalty — as the oath of office requires. He would not attempt, he adds, to circumvent executions by using the governor’s powers of clemency to pardon or commute death sentences.”
Marklost @ 20 “Maybe the “Governor’s†twat will smell better now, ”
Ah, now I understand why there are Repuglican women. They are charmed by the sweet talk of the Repuglican men.
Richard Offmymedication @ 23 “queen Cristine and here smelly ass twat. ”
see above.
Comment by windie— 11/9/05 @ 4:52 pm
“by ‘point’ C1st means ‘unsupported assertion’
They’re not the same, y’know ”
Please refute any unsupported assertions you feel I’ve made. I’ll be happy to debate them with you.
smoke @ 36 “You’ve won but still cannot stop with the ill manners and name calling.”
Please talk to Mark1 and Richard. And get then shut the fuck up!
Conservativelast @ 41 “Especially if the Dems take I-912 as license to tax and spend.”
Again I challenge any Repug to come up with a better system than “Tax and Spend”
The Bullshit Neo-Con idea of “Borrow and Spend” is killing our country and putting an impossible tax load on future generations.
In conclusion, conservativelast, you are a fucking unAmerican asswipe, and so is everymoron that thinks as poorly as you do.
Conservativelast @ 42 “He is against abortion.” “pro-life”
I do not know anyone that is not against abortion, or who is not pro-life.
These bullshit terms do not in anyway translate into being “anti-choice” or for a woman’s right to privacy.
Go back to the talking points and pick some that actually make some sense. You moron.
Conservativelast @ 51 “So he represents what Dems used to be, before the fringe left hijacked the party.”
LOL HA HA, man that is hilarious! The Democratic Party has been shifting to the right for 20 years. It is finally awakening to it’s heratige of progressive vision and protection for the common man.
And holy crap, does that scare the Neo-Con addled Repugs!
It is finally awakening to it’s heratige of progressive vision and protection for the common man. -Comment by Donnageddon— 11/9/05 @ 5:23 pm
Spoken like a true peasant believer, Comrade Donna
Comment by Donnageddon— 11/9/05 @ 5:13 pm
“Again I challenge any Repug to come up with a better system than “Tax and Spend””
I advocate cutting taxes and cutting spending. The borrow and spend policy of the national Republicans is a policy I disagree with.
In the 1990s Democrats were in charge of Congress and persued a cut taxes and spend policy. Before you blame Reagan, remember that Article I, Section I of the Constitution.
“The Bulls**t Neo-Con idea of “Borrow and Spend” is killing our country and putting an impossible tax load on future generations.” (expletive deleted)
I agree. The current deficits are on top of the Democrat created programs of Social Security and Medicare (exacerbated by the Republicans as well) and Democrat deficit spending in the 1980s. The real travesty is that the Dems know this, yet refuse to even propose any type of Social Security reform. The “Neocon fascist” George W. Bush at least proposed an idea for reform, but Democratic demagougery killed the chance of reform of any kind.
Comment by Donnageddon— 11/9/05 @ 5:23 pm
“LOL HA HA, man that is hilarious! The Democratic Party has been shifting to the right for 20 years. It is finally awakening to it’s heratige of progressive vision and protection for the common man.”
Please, please, please run another Northeastern
liberalprogressive for President in 2008.You assholes must be feeling real good today. You made us smaller and less well off than we were.
A corrupt county executive got a free pass to thwart the will of The People and to continue to be a arrogant elitist jerk.
We had a chance to tell Olympia that we want a transportation policy that works, but you decided to send money down the same rathole that got us here in the first place. 20 years from now we’ll still be having this same stupid conversation about traffic congestion, but it will be 10X worse. AWV will be Seattle’s big dig and will end up costing over $30B by the time it’s complete in 2025. Evergreen Point bridge will NEVER be replaced.
The feminist utopia put another SFW in position of power.
The anti smoking nazis got to impose their views on everyone else.
You won this round, but the war won’t ever be over.
Dear Roger,
I have been thinking of what to say to you. All I can come up with is CRAM IT UP YOUR ASS!!!!!!!
DRR
Zinmaster @34
Not Limburger. Aged brick. It’s actually related to Limburger, smells just as bad, is just as soft, and is most appropriately named–as in the GOP threw up a brick last night.
Irons was never a good candidate. The GOP has seldom put up a strong candidate for King County Executive. Maybe when Ted Nugent moves to Seattle and runs for office.
ProudAss @ 64 “Comrade Donna”
Oh that is so witty! So if you favor progress and comman man over regress and mega corporations, you are a communist? Is that it, my witty PRoudAss?
What a moronic relic of the 1980s.
Wear a “Members Only” jacket. Looks good on you.
Now do humanity a favor and kill yourself. Ok?
Conservativelast @ 61 “The real travesty is that the Dems know this, yet refuse to even propose any type of Social Security reform.”
LOL you been listening to a lot of right wing propaganda at the expense of listening to the facts? The Democrats have the ONLY real plan for SS, and it is easy, simple and was used previously (and endorsed by Greenspan). Just raise the fucking limit on FICA taxes . End of problem.
And the Neo-Con attempt to create a false “disaster” agenda for SS and their attempt to destroy it, actually kept attention away from the real problem of Medicare.
You fucking Kool Aid addled repugs never stop lying! But the American Public is not as stupid as you think they are. Hence you are a footnote in history. A disasterous footnote, but nothing more.
Mark the Redneck Villiage idiot said @ 66 “The feminist utopia put another SFW in position of power.”
Do you have any idea how moronic you sound? Really, I mean, man, take a look in the mirror. You are an oblivious idiot! You spout what you hear on Limbaugh and hannity and think it makes you look smart.
Pathetic!
Conservativelast @ 65 “Please, please, please run another Northeasternliberal progressive for President in 2008.”
Kerry is not liberal or progressive, he is a relic of the attempt to make the Dem’s more “Centrist” Which has actually run the Dems into being nothing but “Republican light”
Fortunately, they appear to have learned their lesson and are going back to their progressive roots.
And damn that scares you!
Donna @ 73
I’m actually torn. On one hand, the patriotic American in me doesn’t want the wacky liberal Lefties to take over because it is a lose/lose for the country. If they win, anyone who isn’t in a union is screwed. If they lose, the Far Right will take it as a (false) mandate and keep up their hijinx. On the other hand, if you continue to run wacky liberals, the GOP can afford to go more moderate and still look conservative to the Far Right base.
ConservativeFirst
“I didn’t make the claim Sound Transit taxes were tied to I-912. My point was that neither the 9.5 cent gas tax increase or additional Sound Transit money will relieve congestion in a signficant way.”
Sound Transit: WTF? Apparently you do not believe that the light rail systems in SF, Boston, DC, NYC and Chicago relieve congestion? Empirically, it would seem you are incorrect. Or, do you think that Seattle will end up being an exception to the congestion relief seen in other cities with functioning light rail?
Gas Tax: Ummmm…if you actually read the descriptions of the WSDOT projects to be funded by the gas tax increase, some projects will relieve congestion and some will result in safety improvements (some do both). So, feel free to be more specific: which of the projects designated to provide congestion relief do you think will fail and why? Do you think any of them will succeed in providing congestion relief? Most of them?
Or are you just making up bullshit generalizations?
Mark the Redface @ 66
Nice of you to show up. Hey, how much was I-912 going to pass by?
Waaaaahhh, haaaaaaa, haaaaaaa. You sure have your finger on the pulse of the electorate, don’t you, MTR? (*snicker*)
Oh…and Redface…the PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. Your whining because most Washingtonians disagree with you only shows you to be more foolish than ever.
Mark @ 74 “I’m actually torn. On one hand, the patriotic American in me doesn’t want the wacky liberal Lefties to take over because it is a lose/lose for the country.”
Yeah, like the traitors in office now are real patriots. Fuck you asshole. The only reason the Dems have been losing is that they have been copying the loony right.
We will stop the wacky rights run to turn America into a 3rd world country and bring Pride and Patriotism back to America.
We will stop the foriegn policy disaster of the Neo-Cons, and bring back repsect ofr America from the rest of the world. And actually make being in the armed forces an attractive, and prideful option.
You fucks have tried your best to destroy America, and now the REAL PATRIOTS are going to take over. Just watch how things get better. IT is gonna break your heart how much better it gets.
Carlson was talking about the tactics used by the No on 912 organization, and actually complemented them on running a winning campaign.
He said that one of the tactics that they used, and freely admit, was sending the stuff in the mail to the woman of the household. Carlson said they got many mailings from the No campaign, and they were all addressed to his wife. Some callers said they noticed it too.
So what you assholes do now is target those who have the least ability to make an intelligent decision and send tailored propaganda pieces to them to sway them.
Have you no shame?
Donna @ 77: “We will stop the wacky rights run to turn America into a 3rd world country”
You’ll STOP it? A giant welfare state where the populace has a permanent victim mentality and the Dem Party patronizingly runs everything (and skims like the Politburo) is your idea of Nirvana.
Donna: “You fucks have tried your best to destroy America”
And, specifically, who is this “you” you’re talking about? Anyone to the right of Kucinich?
Stop being a profane, myopic jackass. There is a shocking contrast between the discussions of early this morning and those after you and Funny Bunny showed up. Hopefully, it will be your bedtime soon and the adults can get back to much deeper conversations. Senility must be frustrating for you, but you shouldn’t take it out on the rest of the world.
Mark The Redneck Villiage Idiot @ 78
Let me get this straight.
1. Carlson claims that the anti 912 campaign sent mailings to “the woman of the house”
2. You atate that “So what you assholes do now is target those who have the least ability to make an intelligent decision”
Hmmm.. methinks perhaps all women should understand the Repug male feelings about them
Carzy, crazy, crazy!
Another Mark @ 79 stupidly said “You’ll STOP it? A giant welfare state where the populace has a permanent victim mentality and the Dem Party patronizingly runs everything (and skims like the Politburo) is your idea of Nirvana.”
Uh, no.
Next “And, specifically, who is this “you†you’re talking about? Anyone to the right of Kucinich?”
Uh, no. The You refers to the supporters of the fascist Neo-Con regime. In other words those just slightly lewss authoritarian than Stalin and Hitler.
Next “Stop being a profane, myopic jackass.”
You seem to have me confused with yourself.
Donna @ 80 – You are the poster bitch for who I’m talking about. Nobody better than you.
MTRVI @ 82 and you just said that woman are “those who have the least ability to make an intelligent decisionâ€
You secret is out, MTRVI, you are a neanderthal. And I hope the females in your life smother you in your sleep like they want to.
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is REAL!!!!!!!
I offer up as evidence the one known as ROGER RABBIT!!!
His momma was a real lush…..got into the her daddy’s corn squeezin’s 5 times per day. Then old Roger was hatched.
Also, Roger Rabbit suffers from another little known and hideous affliction passed down by his daddy.
It’s called FECAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME.
Rog’s daddy was a drunk and full of shit.
Ladies and Gentlemen——I rest my case!
That there is funny stuff….I don’t care who y’ar!!!
Mark the Redneck @ 78
“So what you assholes do now is target those who have the least ability to make an intelligent decision and send tailored propaganda pieces to them to sway them.”
BwaaaaAAAAAAAAA Haaaaaaa, Haaaaaaaaaa (*gasp*) Ahhhhhh Haaaaa Haaaaaaaa, Ohhhh hoooooo (*gasp gasp*) Waaaaaaaaah Haaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaa Ohhhh ohh. (*gasp gasp*)
(I might have broke a rib on that one!)
@80
What do you expect from a swaggering peacock who doesn’t have a clue why he can’t get a date?
@82
Well, it looks like MTR won’t be getting a date with Donnageddon, anyway.
Before you cry your eyes out, Mark LeRedneck, I probably should tell you that Donnageddon is a guy. At least, I’m pretty sure she is, although I’ve never met him personally.
84 & 85
Mr. Cynical-Irrelevant is drunk tonight, which is appropriate, considering what happened to his party, candidates, and ballot issues yesterday.
Anybody who thinks rabbits are “hatched” must be drinking some pretty strong stuff, and drinking a lot of it.
Mark the Redneck needs to go on a good drunk, too … then get laid.
Mr. Cyn-Irr, would you please post directions to your house? MTR needs you tonight.
At least the election is OVER with this year, and we know who won and lost in every race. Beats having two months of post-election stress like we did last year in Washington or six weeks like we had five years ago on the national level.
Wabbit @ 90
You think that Mark the Redneck and Mr. Cynical need a mandate? Just because you and Goldy had a mandate does mean that everyone needs one.
Hey MTR-
Ther is no such thing as rational thinking on a site such as horseshit.org, it is only a local version on demon-graphic-stained-underpants.dum
Lefties: I work for myself. Therefore I will just pass on this 9.5 cent a gallon tax increase to my clients whom will just pass it back onto the donks in Seattle, Everett, and Tacoma. So I guess I can live with the defeat, knowing that I-900 PASSED!!!!!
PuddyBud @ 94 “I can live with the defeat”
Keep up the good attitude! You are going to be challenged in that attitude for many years to come.
Keep Losing!
@ 93 “demon-graphic-stained-underpants”
Goldy, can we get t-shirts made for this great slogan!
RP # 92 I demand a mandate!
Hmmm… what kinda mandate? hmmm.. maybe “Neo-Con’s eat children”
Yeah, I like the sound of that mandate!
er… maybe “I got capital, and I will spend it. That is my style.”
Oh, no that has been used… forget that one.
Donna @ 97
Maybe you can have a “man date” with the Wabbit. But you two are the same person. Guess you will have to settle for Goldy.
RP me and Roger Rabbit the same person?
I am not nearly as smart as the little rabbit, but thanks for the compliment!
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is REAL!!!!!!!
I offer up as evidence the one known as ROGER RABBIT!!!
His momma was a real lush…..got into the her daddy’s corn squeezin’s 5 times per day. Then old Roger was hatched.
Also, Roger Rabbit suffers from another little known and hideous affliction passed down by his daddy.
It’s called FECAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME.
Rog’s daddy was a drunk and full of shit.
This one is worth repeating!
Hey Puddingbrains-
WingNutDaily sez WAL-MART’s gonna ban Christmas!!!!
Better go get ’em big fella.
A lot of the conservatives we see now will convert to Progressivism as it becomes the dominent political philosophy of the U.S. Conservatives need to learn that most voters now understand that if thir money didn’t FLOW up, there’d be no need for it to trickle down. You can all go trickle in the backyard now. Windfall taxes on oil companies = affirmative trickle down… Get it now, Mr. Irrelevant?
Conservativefirst @ 101
“Since you have empirical evidence that these rail systems, reduce congestion, I’d love to see it. I’ve driven in both SF and Chicago and they have rush hour traffic worse than Seattle’s. By the way, SF, NYC and Chicago have heavy rail systems, instead of light rail.”
Ummmm…so, a million riders per day (which IIRC is the ridership on the NYC subway system) isn’t good enough for you? My guess is that those million riders would say their traffic congestion problems have been greatly relieved!
“Light rail will generally take riders off of buses not out of cars. Even Sound Transit’s own numbers confirm this. The congestion reduction by Sound Transit is minimal.”
Not so fast, sparky. First, displacing busses is highly useful. But, the big winners in congestion relief are people who use the light rail system, who now get (1) reduced travel time, and (2) lower variance in travel time. Time is money, so users of the system are the big winner.
http://www.bettertransport.inf.....ss2000.htm
“Without light rail, total daily traffic on area roads and freeways is forecast to be 68,239,618 vehicle miles of travel (VMT) in 2010. With light rail it would be reduced to 68,069,618 VMT. This is a difference of one forth of one percent. It is equivalent to removing one car of every 400.”
Sorry, Dr. Harkness is being misleading (and probably intentionally so, since you cite his essay against light rail). First, he pulled some numbers out of an environmental impact report???? WTF? Why didn’t he pull the numbers out of a report specifically designed to address projected benefits of the system, for example, this report?
In any case, the proper metric is not the number of vehicle miles traveled per day. Most of those cars are not traveling on congestion coridours serviced by light rail. The report designed to address benefits provides far more appropriate metrics. Again, when I get to shoot down SR520 to my job in Seattle instead of driving my car, I will certainly benefit from the lower commute time, lower variance in commute time, and increased flexibility (right now I avoid certain peak traffic times). That will be a wonderful form of congestion releif for me!
“My point about the gas tax is that all along the proponents have been pushing the gas tax increase as infrastructure improvemnt.”
WTF???? Proponents have been emphasizing the tax funds safety improvements and congestion relief, as well as making up for the loss of revenue from (1) the elimination of the car tab tax and (2) inflation eating away at a fixed excise tax.
You even cite the list of projects that will be funded by the tax increase. Look at it, pick the projects that are for congestion relief and make your argument why it will not work. Just blurting out that “the tax will not reduce congestion” is complete bullshit, since the DOT Traffic engineers have determined otherwise, and provid SPECIFIC projects that reduce congestion.
“Suddenly a October the opponents of I-912 started using congestion reduction as a reason to vote for I-912. I thought the intent of 9.5 cent gas tax was to repair our crumbling infrastructure. That’s why it was an emergency.”?
Read the fucking list of projects, you idiot (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accountability/2005GasTax/)! Some of the projects clearly are for replacing substandard infrastructure and other projects open up well-known traffic bottlenecks. Still other parts of the gas tax go to restoring lost revenue (like to the ferry system). It would help if you actually read the legislation, too, since that shows exactly how the revenues are divied up for different functions.
“If you have information on how these project will do more than just “ease choke points”, please point them out.”
What is it about “easing choke points” that you do not understand? Or does this somehow not equate to congestion relief to you?
Comment by dj— 11/10/05 @ 11:40 am
“Ummmm…so, a million riders per day (which IIRC is the ridership on the NYC subway system) isn’t good enough for you? My guess is that those million riders would say their traffic congestion problems have been greatly relieved! ”
It’s unlikely Sound Transit will never carry that many people. Seattle doesn’t have the population density of NYC. The mass transit system in NYC was built before our society had become so automobile dependent. Hardly a relevant comparison to light rail in Seattle.
“Not so fast, sparky. First, displacing busses is highly useful. But, the big winners in congestion relief are people who use the light rail system, who now get (1) reduced travel time, and (2) lower variance in travel time. Time is money, so users of the system are the big winner.”
I never said there weren’t benefits to the riders of light rail. But taking people out of buses doesn’t reduce congestion, so for the sake of this debate, your argument is really irrelevant.
“Why didn’t he pull the numbers out of a report specifically designed to address projected benefits of the system, for example, this report?”
Unless I missed them I didn’t see any figures on trip reduction. If you can point them out I’d be glad to take a look. What I saw in the report was the economic impact of rail, which seems like a completely different debate.
In addtion, Sound Transit has been less than accurate, and honest in the past. Look at the Sounder Train as an example. Also, remember light rail was originally supposed to be completed by 2006.
“What is it about “easing choke points” that you do not understand? Or does this somehow not equate to congestion relief to you?”
Easing choke points isn’t going to significantly ease congestion. The 9.5 gas tax increase isn’t a comprehensive plan to reduce traffic congestion, it’s primary purpose is to repair and improve existing roads. I’m not saying it will do nothing, but the impact on congestion will be minimal, and making congestion an important benefit of voting no on I-912 was intellectually dishonest.
ConservativeFirst
Perhaps you should get specific on your definition of “significant”
Mark The Redneck
So what you assholes do now is target those who have the least ability to make an intelligent decision and send tailored propaganda pieces to them to sway them.
Apparently not in your house, Mark.
ConservativeFirst
Have you ever been stuck in traffic because of an accident? Because when accident-causing problems are reduced, congestion will be reduced.
But here: you don’t think that “adding lanes, improving interchanges, and constricting HOV lanes” (WSDOT: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projec.....Congestion) will reduce congestion? Reducing the number of injury accidents by 200 per year? Adding 125 new lane miles of road? Fixing “problems” at 48 high accident locations? All targeted specifically at reducing congestion?
Not to mention the lane miles added, bridges repaired, and seismic retrofits for purposes OTHER than congestion.
Significant?
“It’s unlikely Sound Transit will never carry that many people. Seattle doesn’t have the population density of NYC. The mass transit system in NYC was built before our society had become so automobile dependent. Hardly a relevant comparison to light rail in Seattle.”
I wasn’t attempting a comparison with Seattle. You asked me to “empirical evidence that these rail systems, reduce congestion.” My point is that a million people a day on one of the systems have access to a “low-congestion” transportation infrastructure.
“I never said there weren’t benefits to the riders of light rail. But taking people out of buses doesn’t reduce congestion, so for the sake of this debate, your argument is really irrelevant.”
The benefits to riders are a from of congestion relief. Right now I travel a route with a high probability of congestion. But, if I were to use light rail I would experience relief in the form of faster transit times and a lower variance in transit time. Light rail is simply an alternative transportation mode, so you cannot exclude users of that mode in your calculations.
“Unless I missed them I didn’t see any figures on trip reduction. If you can point them out I’d be glad to take a look. What I saw in the report was the economic impact of rail, which seems like a completely different debate.”
You missed ’em. The economic impacts are computed, in part, by reduction in transit times.
“In addtion, Sound Transit has been less than accurate, and honest in the past. Look at the Sounder Train as an example.”
What about it? It isn’t light rail. On the other hand, we have many cities that have benefited greatly from light rail. Do you seriously claim that SF, DC, Boston, NYC, and Chicago get no benefits from their light rail systems?????
“Also, remember light rail was originally supposed to be completed by 2006.”
And how is this relevant?
“Easing choke points isn’t going to significantly ease congestion.”
Yes. It does! Choke points (or bottle necks) by definition add time to trips. Or were you thinking nasal congestion or something?
“The 9.5 gas tax increase isn’t a comprehensive plan to reduce traffic congestion, it’s primary purpose is to repair and improve existing roads.”
Yes…except for the projects whose primary purpose is to reduce congestion….
“I’m not saying it will do nothing, but the impact on congestion will be minimal, and making congestion an important benefit of voting no on I-912 was intellectually dishonest.”
It certainly will have an important impact for the specific bottlenecks that will be improved! The Transportation Package was never sold as only for reducing congestion. Likewise it was never sold as only for safety improvement. It does some of both.
Your argument is as vacuous as claiming that the transportation package will not improve safety (it will!) and therefore voting no is intellectually dishonest.
Your sweeping generalizations are factually incorrect, and you do not seem interested in discussing strengths or weaknesses of specific projects. Sounds like you are just complaining to complain.
Rugrat602: WalMart going politically correct? What is the URL? I saw Sears and KMart have no response to Christmas this year.
StuckonStupiddon: We’ll still see what is going on for 2006. Remember we still 11 months to find ZarQawi.
Here’s another reason why no on from Arkansas should be elected president again. A man takes a lighter to look in a gas can to see if there was water in the can. He blows up his single wide trailer in Arkansas!
Conservativelast @ 101
“Greenspan is familiar with the accounting because he was chairman of the bipartisan commission that supposedly “fixed” the Social Security problem back in 1983 by imposing a huge increase in FICA payroll taxes–extra revenue that produced the still-growing surpluses.”
http://www.thenation.com/docpr.....;s=greider
Now be a good American, and take one for the team asswipe.
Stuckonstupiddon: The Social Security surplus does grow until 2008 then it drops.
http://www.socialsecurityrefor...../index.cfm “This future is coming with steady speed. Social Security’s annual cash surpluses will begin to fall in 2008, the same year that the first baby boomers reach early retirement age. Over roughly the next 10 years, those Social Security surpluses, about $100 billion a year at their peak, will continue to shrink and then disappear completely.” So prince of dingleberries – do some research!
dj,
You seem to be all talk as I suspected. Didnt you have a 7:00 pm apointment with Mr. Ortloff? I was there and you weren’t.
PuddyBud… besides being dead wrong (as usual) you aren’t even following the conversation.
Have your wife burp you, change your diapers and tuck you into bed.
You moron!
Stuckonstupiddon, I was following the conversation. Your post responding C1st’s Greenspan talk was ridiculing him with leftist talking points, because that’s all you know. I posted another view to bolster C1st’s point of view. I came to his defense, not using anything Greenspan said or using a righty talking point, I used a neutral site to cite the facts.
You stated that you are not as smart as Rupert Wabbet. Yes stuckonstuppidon, you can be clairvoyant at times. Well you’re not too intelligent and again you first navigate to leftist talking points. Maybe you shouldn’t use the Internet to argue your debating points.
PuddyBud, fact is never a talking point. Conservativelast stated that Greenspan did not favor raising the FICA tax to correct problems with social security. I provided the evidence that he was wrong.
Your comments were of a fool who could not follow a conversation if given a path of bread crumbs.
You are “special” PuddyBud. And you should not be ashamed of being “special”.
Hey stuckonstupiddon, clueless, rugrat602, dj, roger rabbit, axl-rod, truth teller, moh, headless lucy, jdb, windie, dr. quest, bill, mark the lefty, bamajenk, leftturn, Proud he’s an Ass: Too bad this test wasn’t around earlier in your cases. Maybe you’d be one of them 4 Million + statistics?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9983094/
Notice which lefties I left out?
PuddyBud, do you really think anyone is gonna click that?
DOn’t be ashamed for being wrong… just learn from it and return to Jesus. He is waiting for you.
Hello everyone. Stuckonstupiddon finally admits why he can’t get it. “Fact is not a talking point!” DJ, here is another mixed metaphor for your special list.
Why does Greenspan NOT WANT TO RAISE TAXES? Let me help you stuckonstupiddon from my link: “Then, Social Security will not be able to pay full benefits from its payroll and other tax revenues.” & “Congress will have to find billions more so that Social Security can pay all of the benefits that it has promised. Within about five years, that additional money will reach $100 billion a year (not counting inflation). From there, the annual demands will reach first $200 billion a year, and soon $300 billion a year.”
$100 Billion, $200 Billion, then $300 Billion/year! It would have to be draconian tax increase, and that increase would have to be now. I realize that putting facts to support what Greenspan said is difficult for your little mind in east King County to absorb. Can you evaluate information from other sources? Naah I dodn’t think so, but in your case stuckonstupiddon it has to be a perfect for your little mind to comprehend!
Stuckonstuppiddon, ever heard of making a cogent point through the other side’s obtuse argument? Exactly what I am doing with that post!
Hey Stuckonstupiddon, they found Goliath’s name in an excavation. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9997587/ Are you ready to come back to God yet?
PuddyBud????? are you paying attention at all?
Take your ritalin, dude.
Ritalin? So I can morph into stuckonstupiddon? NO THANK YOU!
Stuckonstuppiddon: Is this one of the missing links in your family tree? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9993914/
Isn’t this from the same state that has people throwing oreos at black republicans?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9900520/
I agree donnageddon!
What I like is they reassigned the liberal asshole of a judge. THey should fire his ass or recall him. Too bad he can’t be sued too. That’s why it’s important to get rid of donkocratic nutburger fringey judges like Judge Richard Palumbo. How would you all feel if it was your sibling that guy torched? Stupid is as stupid does!