Thursday morning, Virginia Senator Jim Webb, New York Senator Chuck Schumer, and New York Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney are holding a hearing to discuss our country’s incarceration crisis.
The United States has experienced a sharp increase in its prison population in the past thirty years. From the 1920s to the mid-1970s, the incarceration rate in the United States remained steady at approximately 110 prisoners per 100,000 people. Today, the incarceration rate is 737 inmates per 100,000 residents, comprising 2.1 million persons in federal, state, and local prisons. The United States has 5 percent of the world’s population but now has 25 percent of its prisoners. There are approximately 5 million Americans under the supervision of the correctional system, including parole, probation, and other community supervision sanctions.
With such a significant number of the population behind bars, expenditures associated with the prison system have skyrocketed. According to the Urban Institute, “the social and economic costs to the nation are enormous.” With 2.25 million people incarcerated in approximately five thousand prisons and jails, the combined expenditures of local governments, state governments, and the federal government for law enforcement and corrections personnel totals over $200 billion.
The JEC will examine why the United States has such a disproportionate share of the world’s prison population, as well as ways to address this issue that responsibly balance public safety and the high social and economic costs of imprisonment.
One of the witnesses will be Dr. Glenn Loury, an Economics and Social Sciences Professor from Brown University, who recently wrote about the forces behind this trend.
[Nod to David Borden at the Speakeasy]
A quote from the article (which is very good, by the way):
“Before 1965, public attitudes on the welfare state and on race, as measured by the annually administered General Social Survey, varied year to year independently of one another: you could not predict much about a person’s attitudes on welfare politics by knowing their attitudes about race. After 1965, the attitudes moved in tandem, as welfare came to be seen as a race issue.”
Discuss.
Racism is the elephant in the living room. For example: To recompense Jews for Nazi depradations is seen as only the right thing to do. To apologize to Japanese citizens and offer them recompense for imprisonment in WW II is something that happened in the Reagan administration.
To recompense Black citizens for hundreds of years of slavery is seen as preposterous.
I’ll bet if you charted the increase in prison population and the number of Republican congressmen, you would see a close correlation.
@1
Yep, and that explains so much about our political climate today. Conservative libertarians who believed very strongly about abolishing welfare before 1965 (see: Goldwater, Barry) only started to win that battle in the general public when it became twisted into a black-white issue and people who had previously been very supportive of public welfare saw it as being a giveaway to “those folks”.
@3
Actually you wouldn’t. Some of the worst states are Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and California. And the Clinton Administration broke every record for incarceration at the federal level.
The first and easiest thing I’d do, is move ALL non-violent criminals out of the jails. Expensive physical incarceration should only be needed for people that are simply too dangerous to be around others…rapists and murderers. But it’s just retarded to “jail” people for financial crimes (Martha Stewart), non-violent drugs use, etc. In these cases fines and community service work far better. Martha for example should have simply been fined 10 or 100 times whatever amount she supposedly illegally benefited from her insider trading. That’s a great incentive not to do that. Also, taking non-violent folks and putting them in jails with violent criminals greatly increases their risk of becoming worse, not better citizens.
We just don’t need to waste space in jails for people that aren’t a physical danger to the public.
@2 Tell you what, if you can find a person or their child that was held in slavery prior to it being made illegal in the United States, I will support recompensation paid to them. The two examples you cited were given only to people that were directly involved in the incidents they were recompensed for. Their children were not recompensed and neither were any other of their decendents.
I am not trying to belittle what happened to people during the time prior to the United States outlawed slavery. You are the one trying to put a price tag upon human misery. What I am saying is the time that recompensation of any form has passed.
Eight generations have been raised since that point. More people, who had nothing to do with slavery in the United States, have immigrated here since that point than the entirety of the population and its decendents combined would total. Most started out just as impovershed and facing just as much prejudism as the African American decendents of slavery have felt.
Is it fair to the decendents that their ancestors did not get the full recompense promised? No. Nor is it fair on how we are treated and are still treating Hispanic immigrants. Nor was it fair how the Irish immigrants were treated. Nor was it fair how the Italian immigrants were treated. Nor is it fair to expect people that have as much to do with slavery 140 years ago as doctors have to do with grave robbers of about the same time.
There are more young Black and Hispanic men in prison than in college.
Discuss.
Mr. Caine: Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a holocaust denier and I have no axe to grind against any particular group.
BUT, having said that, I notice that your denial of anyone’s responsibility for the plight of the majority of Black people is very vehement. That is the point I was trying to make. “Affirmative Action” is a concept designed to attempt a remedy of this societal problem. But it seems to be losing favor — both politically and legally.
It is instructive to note that Reagan apologised to the Japanese for illegal incarceration, but he did no such thing to the ancestors of those who were slaves in this country.
http://vho.org/tr/2001/1/tr05comp.html
” A basic historical perception of 20th Century European history is that the World Wars, the Russian Revolution, the Holocaust, and the governmental turmoil in East Central Europe were all indicative of a process of social realignment and wealth redistribution. In this context and in this overall fifty year time frame, not six million, but more like a hundred and sixty million individuals lost all they had, and in the case of tens of millions, not only their belongings but their lives as well. In this mix, to what special category should Jewish losses be placed?”
9:
Very nice post. But I have to offer the counter-argument to the snippet you put up. Of those 160 million, how many of them lost everything simply because of their faith, simply because someone chose to target them out of the unholy alliance of bigotry and political expedience? Why do you think that after WW2, of all the German soldiers taken prisoner by the Soviets (can’t remember the exact number, but it was well over a million) during the war, only a few thousand ever came back alive? Payback for 20 million Slavic Russians (et al) slaughtered by the Nazis, much as they did the Jews.
@8
Michael Caine’s point is still very valid. There’s a difference between the actual survivors of an atrocity and the decendants of those survivors. I used to joke with my Egyptian buddy that he owes me reparations for when the Jews were enslaved.
re10: The fact that you would even think ask your Egyptian buddy that question also validates my point.
The point isn’t whether you want to pay reparations or not, but do you recognize the source of the problem. If you do, then remediation of some sort is the answer.
If weak family structure is the problem, maybe the parents need some help.
Think about it.
re 9: If you have ever read anything about the Nazi “final solution”, you would realize that the thousand year Reich would also be a thousand years in the making. The German plan was to exterminate EVERYONE except Germans.
They intended to occupy and populate the entire world with Germans. Many groups were targeted and killed because of their ethnicity, religion, and other reasons.
Jews suffered without a doubt. But why are they EXCLUSIVELY entitled to reparation.
@11
re10: The fact that you would even think ask your Egyptian buddy that question also validates my point.
The point isn’t whether you want to pay reparations or not, but do you recognize the source of the problem. If you do, then remediation of some sort is the answer.
Well, no. It isn’t a problem. That’s why it was funny. The fact that Egyptians held Jews as slaves a long time ago isn’t a problem for any Jews today. Now you could make the argument that the direct results of slavery still affect African-Americans today and you actually have an argument there. But the solution shouldn’t be direct compensation to specific people. What I think should be done is to have greater government investment in minority communities that have been mired in poverty since the days before civil rights.
@8
Vehemence? You call that vehemence? I reread my post to see if I was stronger than I meant to be. I didn’t read any vehemence, I read what I feel is a thought out and, sadly at this point, nigh rote set of reasons why I disagree with reparations being paid out to decendents of people who were slaves in the United States.
Affirmative Action has nothing to do with slavery. It had to do with rectifying entrenched disparities due to social bigotry. If you are arguing that reparations are due for that, then everyone affected by Affirmative Action would also have claim for reparations due to negative repercussions from that policy.
President Lincoln apologized many times. Is every President supposed to apologize till the United States is no longer a country? Will it take just a century?
In short, yours is the post that attempts to use vehemence and passion in lieu of actually countering my disagreements to supporting reparations. If you can actually convince me with supportable reasons rather than just trying to use emotional traps, I will change my mind.
@11
I agree with:
But your intimation is that it should be given to people because of how their ancestors were treated. My belief is that it should be given because the family is in need.
@12
Wow! Sounds like you have other issues than simple reparations. I’m sorry that you feel Jews got more out of WWII than they deserved or more than others. Such a claim shows your ignorance on what reparations were demanded of Germany when they surrendered.
Germany was forced to pay reparations to Russia to compensate for their actions to Russians. They were also forced to pay them to Gypsies, France, England and many other groups. It was Germany that paid reparations to the Jews, not the United States, as Germany was the offender.
Your post speaks more to your anger being derived from jealousy as opposed to being truly wronged personally.
Lee, I realized the joke. I’m surprized that you think I took your jest seriously. My point was that you even thought to ask the question — even in jest.
What you are saying is a good idea, but why not direct reparations?
re16: And you are showing your bullheaded, dogmatic sticK-to-it-iveness. Gypsies and other ethnic groups have just as good a claim to reparations as Jews. But that thinking is outside your little box.
You are one of the reasons Reagan Democrats vote Republican — because you are an insufferabl, know-it- all prig.
@17
What you are saying is a good idea, but why not direct reparations?
Because it’s impossible to determine on an individual-by-individual level who is affected by the legacy of slavery and who isn’t. Take Obama for example. He’s black, but since his father is from Africa and his mother is white, his life wasn’t negatively affected by the history of slavery in any way.
Broadway Joe says: There are more young Black and Hispanic men in prison than in college. Discuss.
Where do you get that crap?
It’s four to one the opposite way. 4:1 more in college!
Damn: Why are white guys saying I can get my free guvmint handout? Let’s see 20 years per generation and slavery ended in 1864 so that’s seven generations. I want my share of the pie since it’s many people who I can trace back to “ROOTS”!
Should be … can’t get my free…
I want my piece of da free pie!
@20
It’s four to one the opposite way. 4:1 more in college!
For the age group 18-24, that’s correct. Obama recently got this wrong. But the total number of black men in jail is more than the total number of black men in college. And I don’t believe that’s true for any other ethnic group.
@18
If you read my post, you would know that they did.
You are the reason that “Reagan Democrats voted Republican.” You drive people away with insults rather than actually listen to what they are saying and address what they said. If you actually think Republicans are going to give more support to the causes you hold dear, by all means, vote for them. I would be very surprised if you can convince them that reparations to African Americans are in order.
If you want to vote for a party that wishes to give everyone a chance to lift themselves out of the cycle of poverty, I highly recommend you vote for Democrats.
So far, you have tried to convince me by emotional rhetoric using spurious, borderline anti-semetic, logic and implying that if anyone disagrees with you they are racist. Not very convincing. Then you went on using the even more spurious logic of ‘others got theirs, why can’t I get mine’ as well as accusing me of being racist putting words and actions I never stated or did as if I had. Still, a poor way of convincing someone. When that still didn’t get your way, you dropped all pretense and just spewed insults.
Please, grow up. Stop blaming people that have been dead and buried for nearly 60 years for your problems. If you want to talk about programs and ideas that will help ALL impoverished people in America get assistance to help them get better jobs and lives, I am all for it. If you want to whine about how hard life is, try living it in agony every day, then maybe you and I might have some common ground on that topic.
http://www.socialism.com/fsart.....oices.html
Here is an article by a Native American that says that the argument against Black Reparations could as easily apply to Native Americans and their Resevations and other free stuff they get from the government.
You can’t build a nation with slave labor and then tell their decendents that it was a long time ago and they are not entitled to anything.
Same with Native Americans. There are none alive today who suffered “directly” from having their land taken away.
“Tell you what, if you can find a person or their child that was held in slavery prior to it being made illegal in the United States, I will support recompensation paid to them. The two examples you cited were given only to people that were directly involved in the incidents they were recompensed for. Their children were not recompensed and neither were any other of their decendents.”
This is your argument, Michael Caine. Does it hold true for Native Americans?
Yes it does. It does not mean, however, that the United States should stop honoring its treaties either and that the United States should start honoring them fully.
How about the “40 acres and a mule” bill that was passed by Congress in 1865? Should that be honored as well, or would it be too expensive and impractical?
I’ll take my 40 acres, but since a mule is also known as an ass, you can keep it.
When can we start getting our slave reparations? I want my free money.
Michael Caine: Normally I don’t agree with your politics.
But when you write: “So far, you have tried to convince me by emotional rhetoric using spurious, borderline anti-semetic, logic and implying that if anyone disagrees with you they are racist.” I have to agree.
That’s the new progressive liberal mindset. Oops… wait a minute… I am wrong… that’s the old non-progressive liberal mindset too. Just look at the major cities run by the donk since 1965.
Nuthin changed!
Waaaa haaaa haaaa haaahaaa haaaa haaaa!
Recently some American Indian tribes threw out their black Indian brothers when they realized some of their casino money would go to the blacks. I posted it on ‘Wipes but most Moonbat!s ignored this development.
http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=431 Read the comments below too!
I can’t trust my American Indian brothers anymore! My great-great grandmother would be rolling in her grave (figure of speech – YLB – The Clueless One)
Lee: What you posted as totals are and will always be true. Most prison inmates are 25 or older (guess age 70) while 96 percent of people in college housing are age 18 to 24.
From the 2006 Census blacks made up 41 percent of the nation’s 2 million prison and jail inmates in 2006. Hispanics made up 19 percent and Whites made up 37 percent of the population. .41* 2MM is 820,000 blacks in prisons.
Look at the population demographics. How many blacks can be in college 18-24 in a population of approximately 41 million? then look at the total number incarcerated? Of course the latter will be larger. The issue is how many 18-24 are in college to prison? 4:1
All other numbers are worthless and meaningless to the argument! Compare the number of blacks who are not in jail from 25-70 to those in jail 25-70. Why are you not trumpeting those numbers? I dare say more than 820,000 are out as productive members of society.
This isn’t rocket science Lee. Even chadt can find this out. Well… maybe not!
From the 2006 census estimate numbers since idiots like YLB- The Clueless One won’t believe me:
http://www.census.gov/popest/n.....-asrh.html
BLACK MEN ONLY
.18 to 64 years 11,298,960
.18 to 24 years 2,216,272
.25 to 44 years 5,298,713
.45 to 64 years 3,783,975
.65 years above 1,217,350
If 820,000 are incarcerated from 25-70 then how many are free Lee? 10,300,038 – 820,000 = 9,480,038 free black men to walk the streets stalking the white ladies! (Blazing Saddles humor).
Jist in the 18-24 population – 2,216,272 / 820,000 in prison = 2.70 for this demographic!
I rest my case. Think Lee think.
Golly why are white people so dumb and NAACP trying to use race again in the wrong manner?
This guy hit the nail correctly: “It’s one of the great social and economic tragedies of our time,” said Marc Morial, president and CEO of the Urban League. “It points to the signature failure in our education system and how we’ve been raising our children.”
Where is Al Not-So-Sharpton or Jesse Hi-Jackson on these two issues? I have lamented this on ASSWipes since I arrived here. Donk (liberal democrapts) don’t care about my people, except for their vote every year and my people are sheeple to the Moonbat!tic way.
What town was it that Ronald Reagan started his Presidential campaign in?
Think about it PB.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/419/
“Ronald Reagan began his 1980 presidential campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the infamous place where civil rights workers Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney were slain in 1964, in one of the most horrific incidents of that turbulent era.
Reagan’s decision to start his campaign in that tainted location was a symbolic embrace of segregationist forces. At the time, his challenge to the shaky civil rights consensus seemed a needless provocation. In retrospect, we can see that Reagan’s unambiguous allegiance with the reactionary forces set the mold for future GOP strategies.
In fact, Reagan’s wink at the segregationists was a continuation of the Republicans’ “Southern strategy,” a line of attack initiated by Richard Nixon in his 1968 presidential campaign.”
@31
Um, as usual, you completely misunderstood what I was saying. What I’m saying is that more black people are in prison than in college (which is true). What I’m also saying is that that’s not true for any other race (although I’m having trouble finding good statistics for latino, it may be true for them as well).
Where is Al Not-So-Sharpton or Jesse Hi-Jackson on these two issues?
Jesse Jackson has actually given some outstanding speeches about the need for drug law reform in order to help the black community escape from this crisis. On the other hand, you seem content to make excuses and continue to be an embarrassment to your race.
Lee: what a crock of crap. I pay attention to issues with my race way more than you ever will. I have elevated issue after issue where donk have ignored my people. You are a panderer to the status quo. How did I know where to get the values so quickly you imbecile? I wrote about this last week. Search the archives Lee.
You said: “But the total number of black men in jail is more than the total number of black men in college.”
Did you read this? I answered back in the first paragraph: “What you posted as totals are and will always be true. Most prison inmates are 25 or older (guess age 70)”
From the 25 to 70 demographic which was the measurement used, of course you are right. What I said and will continue to say the measurement to be used is 25-70 in prison vs 25-70 not in prison. Use the 18-24 in prison measurement vs 18-24 not in prison too. That’s apples to apples.
If you weren’t so colored in hatred you would have comprehended my first sentence and the numbers. But being a ASSIE Voice minion, you missed it. Par for the course!
Lee: How is drug law reform speeches going to free my people from prison? Words are empty rhetoric. There are too many Mike Nifongs on your side who will resort to whatever menas to incarcerate.
Sooooooooo, you think letting them off for selling on the street corner is fine? Well what would they do next? Where are the jobs? Where are the educational opportunities? Where are the training programs? What happened to the great society of LBJ?
The Urban League guy is right about education and family values, but of course for you to admit it would blow up your argument since you guys control the inner cities!
Pox on your house Lee. The numbers speak for themselves!
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/racepris.htm
Pud: Don’t confuse numbers with percentages. Consider this: It doesn’t even take percentage of the total population into account, yet the numbers show that young Black men are disproportionately represented in the prison population. This is NOT a knock against young Black men! It is a knock against the judicial system:
Of the 250,900 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses in 2004, 133,100 (53.05%) were black, 50,100 (19.97%) were Hispanic, and 64,800 (25.83%) were white.
Source: Harrison, Paige M. & Allen J. Beck, PhD, US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2005 (Washington, DC: US Dept. of Justice, Nov. 2006) (NCJ215092), Table 12, p.
“The racially disproportionate nature of the war on drugs is not just devastating to black Americans. It contradicts faith in the principles of justice and equal protection of the laws that should be the bedrock of any constitutional democracy; it exposes and deepens the racial fault lines that continue to weaken the country and belies its promise as a land of equal opportunity; and it undermines faith among all races in the fairness and efficacy of the criminal justice system. Urgent action is needed, at both the state and federal level, to address this crisis for the American nation.”
@35
Lee: what a crock of crap. I pay attention to issues with my race way more than you ever will.
Apparently you don’t, considering how little you’ve demonstrated you know.
I have elevated issue after issue where donk have ignored my people.
And you’ve completely ignored massive issues that have had much more devastating affects on the African-American community. By believing that the Democrats are the only people harming the black community, you are a laughingstock.
You are a panderer to the status quo.
By saying that we need to end the drug war? Are you retarded?
How did I know where to get the values so quickly you imbecile? I wrote about this last week. Search the archives Lee.
What values? I’m not questioning the numbers you’ve provided. I’m questioning the logic you use to dismiss the prison problem.
You said: “But the total number of black men in jail is more than the total number of black men in college.”
Did you read this? I answered back in the first paragraph: “What you posted as totals are and will always be true. Most prison inmates are 25 or older (guess age 70)”
No, it won’t always be true. It’s not true for whites. It’s not true for Asians. But it’s true for blacks. That’s the whole point, you imbecile.
From the 25 to 70 demographic which was the measurement used, of course you are right. What I said and will continue to say the measurement to be used is 25-70 in prison vs 25-70 not in prison. Use the 18-24 in prison measurement vs 18-24 not in prison too. That’s apples to apples.
If you weren’t so colored in hatred you would have comprehended my first sentence and the numbers. But being a ASSIE Voice minion, you missed it. Par for the course!
No, you idiot. You’re the one that missed the point because you’re too fucking stupid to actually read what other people write and digest that information.
ee: How is drug law reform speeches going to free my people from prison?
Because drug laws are BY FAR the biggest reason why black people are funneled into prison in record numbers. Black people go to jail in record numbers for activities that most white people get away with regularly. I’ve been a regular pot smoker for 14 years. If I were black and poor, there’d be a significantly higher likelihood that I’d be in jail right now.
Words are empty rhetoric. There are too many Mike Nifongs on your side who will resort to whatever menas to incarcerate.
No, there aren’t. If there are so many Mike Nifongs out there, name another one.
Sooooooooo, you think letting them off for selling on the street corner is fine? Well what would they do next? Where are the jobs? Where are the educational opportunities? Where are the training programs? What happened to the great society of LBJ?
The violence that drug prohibition creates has destroyed many of those neighborhoods. A lot of money is made by drug dealers, but the violence that happens in order to preserve those profits has driven out much of the legitimate business in the area. I don’t normally suggest that people use TV shows to understand reality, but check out The Wire. It’s an exception. It’s an amazing illustration of how the drug war has destroyed inner-city black communities, written by a reporter and a former detective in Baltimore.
The Urban League guy is right about education and family values, but of course for you to admit it would blow up your argument since you guys control the inner cities!
Wow, for a black man, you are unbelievably ignorant about the reality of our inner cities. Education and family values don’t mean much when dad is in jail on a drug charge that white people in the suburbs get away with every day. Wake up and get a fucking clue. You really are a disgrace.