Over at Crosscut, real Ted Van Dyk laments the decline in public civility.
We face unacceptable losses of civility. The in-your-face insults characteristic of many blogs and even traditional media reflect a general loss of respect for each other. The old political dictum, “Tough on issues; soft on people,” has long since been breeched. How many angry print or on-line columns, broadcast commentaries, or political rants have you seen in recent months, flowing from mention of the names Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, George W. Bush, Barney Frank or, locally, Tim Eyman? Not critiques of their policy views but insulting personal attacks and characterizations. The communications flowing from partisan political committees and true believing single-issue groups are often toxic.
Yeah… well… um… in your face, Van Dyk!
First of all, as our state’s best known purveyor of insulting personal attacks on Tim Eyman, I just want to calmly and maturely point out that he started it. If not for Eyman’s own infamous lack of civility, my tit for tat response would never have garnered so many headlines in return. As I explained at the time, in seeking to officially proclaim Eyman a “horse’s ass,” I was not making a mockery of the initiative process; rather, I was just pointing out the mockery that Eyman had already made of it. Eyman is a horse’s ass, and that’s the uncomfortable truth that made my initiative both funny and compelling.
Furthermore, as I have well demonstrated, it is possible to methodically and rationally critique one’s policies, while simultaneously indulging in personal attacks. Indeed, I’d wager that nobody has written more substantively and at greater length on the policy implications of Eyman’s various initiatives than I have over the past six years. Do I resort to name-calling and hyperbole from time to time? Sure. Timmy deserves it. But when it comes to a factual and substantive debate on tax structure issues, I consistently kick Eyman’s sound-bite-repeating equine ass. (Which, by the way, is why Tim won’t even make eye contact with me anymore, let alone engage me in live debate.)
Likewise, it is also possible to maintain an air of civility while, intentionally or not, consistently repeating the same pack of discredited lies, as Van Dyk has relentlessly done in opposing Sound Transit. I suppose Van Dyk might be offended by such bluntness of opinion, but I personally prefer rude truths to polite lies, and unlike him I strive never to conflate solemnity with seriousness, nor civility with being civic-minded.
No doubt Van Dyk pines for the oh-so-civil, bipartisan days when political operatives from both parties might deliver a suitcase full of $100 bills to Richard Nixon, but not me. For if that’s what civility looks like, I want nothing to do with it.
One thing you’ll never see in the newspaper that runs Ted Van Dyke’s insipid columns is a mature, calm, factual, and substantive discussion of state tax issues.
Well said Goldy.
Ted should also note who said “Go fuck yourself” on the Senate floor. Now that’s civility.
Well, I don’t know what these lies are about Sound Transit that TVD spews, but that entity is net terrible. Noplace else hauls in $600 million per year in sales taxes for commuter trains. Most places use federal grants and taxes on businesses (if any additional taxes are needed) for light rail. The approx. $5 billion in local taxes ST has taken in since ’97 is far too much. Aren’t you supposed to be opposed to regressive taxes DG?
You understand taking that much regressive tax revenue out of this economy and spending it the way ST does hurts small businesses, don’t you?
Couple that with how little good those trains have done in terms of increasing productivity, and look at how very few people use them regularly. The BEST that can be said of ST is it’s a giant waste of money. Plus, it isn’t like anyone there has any incentive to get the work done . . . mostly it’s sit around and watch the tax revenues flow in . . .
LMFAO @ “he started it”
you sound like a fucking child, goldy.
The loss of civility on both sides(and we are ALL guilty of it) is lamentable.
and post #3 is right..light rail has turned into a laughing stock…nobody uses this white elephant.
Quick, someone get Ted some scotch and an LBJ centerfold and maybe he’ll go back to dreaming it is still 1967.
@3 & @4
Hmm, funny but it seems to me that plenty of people are riding both Light Rail and the Sounder commuter trains. I can’t wait until it gets to my neck of the woods (Roosevelt).
Oh and complain all you want to about Sound Transit but I doubt you are going to be able to stop any of the currently planned system from being built.
I like to be in the mire; I like to post pictures of shit; that’s my level.
Chris Stefan: You appear ignorant of the low ridership levels.
Look at what voters were told to expect with Sound Move (App. D, Table 16). By 2006 there were supposed to be 105,000 daily light rail boardings. The actual number is about 14,000. Granted, there are three less stations than planned, but still . . .. By 2006 there were supposed to be 16,000 daily Sounder boardings. The actual number is about 9,300.
The boardings numbers are far below other regions’ boarding numbers, and things aren’t going to change that much because there isn’t enough density near the few stations.
We don’t have the right urban landscape or suitable geography for building out rail systems here. It is a fatal flaw – Sound Transit never will be useful in the way commuter rail is useful in other places.
Oh, and the financing practices indeed are abhorrent.
what’s wrong with ST finances?
I thought all their projects had nice 20 year repayment periods with typical total interest/capital ratios of 1.4 to 1.8.
and federal funds helped avoid part of the borrowing, too.
right?
@8 wouldn’t the instant cure be changing our limits on density then?
DC has a 12 story limit and also allows multifamily on many radial spoke type arterials out from downtown. They pretty much have 6 or 10 story apartment buildings….all over.
We could do that here, too.
Are you suggesting now that we’re building the light rail we ensure it’s useless by continuing with our 1950s style zoning everywhere?
@6…..one word: SUCKER
People may not be able to stop the train wreck that is light rail, but that makes it no less an embarrassment…..and shows what dupes the people are who voted for it.
and for what its worth, I think the commuter train was a great idea. It uses existing lines and didnt cost BILLIONS.
@10….Radial type arterials would be hard to pull off in this area…we are in a North-South corridor rather than an area open in all directions.
radials work great in many cities, but I dont think we have the right geography to make it work here.
@6 Hmm, funny but it seems to me that plenty of people are riding both Light Rail and the Sounder commuter trains.
Great – show us your data and analysis.
Yes. Thank you, Goldy. That is the best response I’ve yet heard to the establishment voices complaining about how we’re not all doing whatever they say. Because if we’d don’t do what they say, we must, by definition, be rude and uncivil and irresponsible.
Yessireee, Sound Transit is such a terrible agency that 14 months ago the voters voted it another tax increase (yes, that regressive sales tax — the only one the Legislature allows the agency to levy) to build yet more Link light rail transit.
Hmmmmm, maybe the voters know more than the trolls do.
Goldy said:
Brilliant!
The trouble with the Right is that the Right demands from the Left civility, though the Right never extends the same to the Left. The Left has always been too deferential to the Right. The Left is, by nature, courteous, curious, and uncontrolling. The Right is, by nature, the opposite. As both Goldy and the Rabbit have stated so many times here, the Left needs to be more combative. We have to acknowledge and act upon the reality that the contemporary Right in America doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the truth. Power is all that matters to those folks. We on the Left might believe in the power of persuasion, but persuasion is not possible when it comes to our Republicans. They are immune to facts and reason.
@ 13
Great – show us your data and analysis.
You really are one of the most lazy-assed trolls we have around here. From here:
It took me more time to write this comment than it took me to find that web site.
@18….and yet you gave no data worth anything.
Remember now, if you can, we are comparing the expected rider numbers – you know, those numbers that sound transit LIED about what we should expect for our BILLIONS of taxes.
Big fucking deal that ridership is up 15%…15% of not very many is still not very many….
how about that promised 105k we were told? LMFAO – suckers…..
nice try, but epic fail.
@17..HAHAHAHHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAAH, dude, please put Lee’s bong down.
Could you possibly use a broader brush?
You are starting to sound like Goebbels Rabbit.
@3 We took a vote of the citizens on that, and Sound Transit won. So your point is — ? That election is over, bub. Time to move on.
So how about we move on to real tax reform? You know, replacing the state sales tax and B & O tax with a state income tax? That’ll help the poor, who pay 5 1/2 times as much of their income to the state as the rich, and it’ll help small businesses, because the B & O tax is a small business killer.
You can’t do anything now about the ST tax, but you can do something about our regressive state tax structure.
Are you on board?
@4 “The loss of civility on both sides(and we are ALL guilty of it) is lamentable.”
No, we’re not ALL guilty of it. You rightwing assholes started the incivility. You’ve been at it for 70 years. What do you expect us to do? Take flowers to a knife fight?
The incivility will stop when you rightwing fucks decide to be civil. You started the incivility, so you have to stop first, then we’ll stop.
It takes only one side to start a war, and you pigshitlickers started this one, so don’t blame it on us.
@13 “Great – show us your data and analysis.”
I have a better idea — pull your head out of your ass long enough to look at a passing commuter train or light rail car.
@11 “the commuter train … didnt cost BILLIONS.”
Actually, I think it did. I could be wrong, but without looking it up, the figure of $2 billion pops into my mind.
A billion bucks isn’t what it used to be. It doesn’t buy much anymore.
@22…STFU Goebbels Rabbit, you nazi bastard.
its people like you in power who start body counts into the millions….
take your hatred and just die already.
@17 “The trouble with the Right is that the Right demands from the Left civility, though the Right never extends the same to the Left.”
The hell with that! I’ll be civil when they are. They have to go first, because they started it.
@25…Goebbels Rabbit, as usual you are clueless..
@22 “STFU”
Make me, motherfucker.
@18 It took me more time to write this comment than it took me to find that web site.
—-
No doubt, because you’re citing performance data from the second quarter of 2008 for total system boardings. I’m asking Chris Stefan for the data and analysis HE IS USING to support HIS specific claim for TODAY, you dope.
@26 “just die already”
I have a proposal for you. Let’s both hold our breath and see who dies first. Are you game?
@28 “you are clueless”
Oh, but I’m not, I’ve precisely figured you fuckers out …
Hooboy, this bunny is a badass!
@32…the only thing you have figured out is a strong case of hatred for your fellow American.
your an angry pathetic old nazi….
@31
Roger Rabbit will lose this going away . . . his lungs are absolutely shot from being a heavy smoker! Not smart . . .
@ 30
I’m asking Chris Stefan for the data and analysis HE IS USING to support HIS specific claim for TODAY, you dope.
A) Chris didn’t say anything about “TODAY”. He merely said that plenty of people seem to be using Sound Transit’s services.
B) I can see you’re really intent on proving just how much of a lazy ass you really are. At the top of the page to which I linked at 18 there’s this text:
All but the right-most one is a link. You couldn’t think to click on any of them? You can’t really be that web inept, can you?
@36
Yes, but what you thought worthy to quote, you dope, are early 2008 results. You do not have the acumen for this, sorry to say.
My question is to Chris Stephan, not you. I haven’t the slightest interest in your “analysis.” Got it?
@34 “your fellow American”
Who would that be?
@35 Well then, he ought to take me up on it, because it’ll be a pushover.
First of all, as our state’s best known purveyor of insulting personal attacks on Tim Eyman, I just want to calmly and maturely point out that he started it.
Darryl, Puddy will remember this the next time you choose to attack Puddy when Puddy correctly identifies HA Libtardo behavior.
Thanks David Goldstein for ammunition. This is as good as ylb arschloch’s WSJ Opinion pages and then he uses them and is TARP screams when his fellow political travelers hold up the TARP as a great thing.
@ 37
Yes, but what you thought worthy to quote, you dope, are early 2008 results.
I quoted text from the first relevant web site I found. I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you could figure out where to go from there.
My question is to Chris Stephan, not you.
Ah, so you aren’t really interested in the actual facts or discovering the truth. Thank you for confirming what quite a few of us have suspected for quite some time.
I haven’t the slightest interest in your “analysis.”
You don’t seem to have any interest in any kind of analysis whatsoever. It’s why you never offer an alternative.
Why is that, John? Why do we never see you actually engage in a real policy discussion?
Talk about not having any acumen…
@37
Now you’ve bruised Don Joe’s big ego and he feels compelled to save face, show everyone he has the “right stuff.” The fact is, by his own admission he’s terrible with numbers and analysis. It’s apparent he does not have the head for anything remotely analytic – he wouldn’t know where to begin – though he’ll try to make up for it with endless blather. Like @41!
I haven’t the slightest interest in your “analysis.” Got it?
You’re not the first to come to this conclusion!
Max Rockatansky is manoftruth, I do believe. manoftruth is sockpuppeteering. When you look at Max’s racism, inability to write in coherent English, fake claims to be Christian, and ill-advised arrogance, it is difficult to believe he is not manoftruth. What think the rest of ye?
Now the dumb bastard Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny@22 is discussing incivility on the Republican side. What a dumb fuck you are Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny.
Does Huey Long ring a bell Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny? Huey was early 30s. Huey was a Dummocraptic. Huey was as uncivil as any Dummocraptic EVER! So there goes that 70 year BULLSHITTIUM rant, right out of the window. Remember Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny, it was you who once said all you need to destroy an argument is to prove one point wrong! KABLAMMO.
So here are some facts which again show how much of a dumb fuck Herr Goebbels Dumb Bunny is.
Remember how your side attacked and performed that high tech lynching of Clarence Thomas? Talk about incivility! Well how many of you know about this?
Remember how your side called Ronald Reagan nuclear trigger happy?
How about all those Dummocraptic Vietnam War protesters (many became the parents of today’s HA Libtardos asked LBJ how many babies did you kill today… Same arguments used against Bush. Rotten apples never fall far from the tree.
Same shit different day, same playbook everyday.
@43….I am not manoftruth.
and how am I racist? what have I posted that is racist?
and when did I claim to be a christian?
nice try, but yet another epic fail.
Puddy,
Roger Rabbit is a patriot. Calling him “Herr Goebbels” is not right. It is disgusting, deluded, and desperate. You, though misguided, are a patriot, at least in the sense that I think you want what is best for this country, even if you have not a clue what that might be. Why are you people on the right incapable of recognizing that differences of opinion do not reflect lack of love for this country and its ideals?
@46 even if you have not a clue what that might be.
What an arrogant ass you are. But, coming from the lawyer class . . .
Goebbels Rabbit has earned his moniker. He is a self admitted, hateful propagandist who cares not for his fellow countryman – he cares only for party advancement, even at the cost of truth and the country in general.
he is a true student and disciple of Joseph Goebbels.
Karen @ 47
Hey, I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting you before. Welcome to Goldy’s blog. As a first impression, might I suggest you seem a bit judgmental? That doesn’t mean, of course, that we can’t be friends.
@ 42
Now you’ve bruised Don Joe’s big ego
You know, I appreciate everyone’s concern about my ego, but you really don’t have to be so concerned. I’d much rather y’all just bring a decent argument to the table.
But it really is funny. If these folks really could muster up a decent argument, they wouldn’t be taking these lame potshots at me.
Xanadu, every time you do this, I win. So, thank you.
another epic fail by Don Schmoe……
just remember, 105,000 riders daily…bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhhahahahahaahhhahahhhahhahahah
Why can’t those goat-fucking Republicans be more civil?
I don’t know about light rail, but the commuter buses I have used on occasion to get from Issaquah to Burien are always full from start to finish.
The cost is pretty cheap too because Mr. Cynical pays all of the subsidies himself.
Is that right? Ask him.
@50
Here’s the basic problem, Don Joe. You have a head of concrete, inside of which is an impenetrable ego, which is itself tightly wrapped around a block of titanium . Nothing gets into the great space inside all of this, especially anything having to do with numbers or analysis. That’s one reason nobody in their right mind would their waste time with your views on anything that even remotely requires analytic skills. The other? You’re intellectually dishonest. You often use sources that are either totally inane (eg, the two year old data above) or – worse – non-existent! Once you’re confronted with this it’s always off to the races as you backtrack and do everything possible to cover your butt with blather.
Nobody wants to waste their time on you. Now you know.
@ 54
Here’s the basic problem, Don Joe.
Ah, yes. Once again, the problem has nothing to do with my arguments. Were that the case, you’d be attacking my arguments instead of me.
You’re intellectually dishonest. You often use sources that are either totally inane (eg, the two year old data above) or – worse – non-existent!
The point I was making about the two-year-old data above is how easy it is to find the data that John wanted Chris to provide. If you’re going to accuse me of being intellectually dishonest, then at least be honest enough to accurately restate my argument.
As for non-existent sources, I challenge you to find a single instance where I’ve failed to cite a source. Just one. Any will do.
Nobody wants to waste their time on you.
Yet, you do. Indeed, you waste your time on me, while failing to ever take on my arguments. What does that say about your intellectual honesty?
Ted Van Dyk seems to bemoan Ted Van Dyk more than anything else.
Van Dyk’s ridiculous and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories trump any blogger’s “heated rhetoric” any day of the weak.
Van Dyk’s angry columns are based on purely personal obsessions and biases. Not policy or even politics.
I said:
I challenge you to find a single instance where I’ve failed to cite a source. Just one. Any will do.
I should point out that true pedants might find one or two cases where I’d made a statement that didn’t explicitly include a disclaimer saying “according to what I’ve seen.” I can think of one such instance off the top of my head.
If this is an example of “non-existent” sources that Xandu has in mind, then it’s nit-picky at best and, at worst, even more intellectually dishonest than the level of dishonesty of which I have been accused.
@54
Ha! All so true! Don’t forget this: Don Joe regularly steals time and resources from Microsoft as he posts on HA throughout the day. Very progressive of him, robbing his employer blind!
Speaking of weird personal obsessions: just sayin’ and rabbit are just as stupid on transportation issues as “pave the planet” Ted with his 1965 Falcon.
@ 58
Don Joe regularly steals time and resources from Microsoft as he posts on HA throughout the day.
You don’t know? Kicking wingnut asses is among my commitments.
I looked inside one of the light rail trains today as it went north along I-5 in Tukwilla – I only saw 3 people on it.
@57
This is not true. You have misrepresented or outright lied about your “sources” or data on a number of occasions, and have been challenged on this issue before.
Now you’re adding to the pile of BS with more of the same. This type of behavior is in your DNA. Unbelievable.
@ 62
This is not true. You have misrepresented or outright lied about your “sources” or data on a number of occasions, and have been challenged on this issue before.
You do realize, don’t you, that if you fail to provide any links proving this assertion, then you are guilty of the vary thing of which you accuse me, don’t you?
Gotta love these double standards about “intellectual honesty”.
@46 Because they’re stupid.
john @37, xandu @42 & 54, karn @62: I’ve been scrolling through your exchange with Don Joe. I see the three of you criticizing Don Joe for linking to 2-year-old data. Yet, none of the 3 of you linked to any data. At least lebowski @61 went to the trouble of stepping outside and looking at a train as it went by to see how many people were on it. That’s more than the 3 of you have offered in the way of substantive information. In most cases, when you’re dealing with government data, 2-year-old data are about as up-to-date as you can get. It seems to me you guys are just bloviating. You don’t really have anything to say until you get off your own asses and come up with something besides hot air. So get cracking! Put up, or shut up.
@47 Of course we lawyers are arrogant asses. That’s what we’re paid for. Who wants a meek or nice lawyer?
@48 “Goebbels Rabbit has earned his moniker. He is a self admitted, hateful propagandist who cares not for his fellow countryman – he cares only for party advancement, even at the cost of truth and the country in general. he is a true student and disciple of Joseph Goebbels.”
I’ve admitted being a liberal propagandist, and reciprocating rightwing hate by returning the favor. That’s all. The rest of it is your bullshit.
@47 Btw, karen, in case you’re new here, it’s my job as the unofficial HA greeter to inform you of the ad hoc HA posting rules. They are as follows:
1. This is a liberal blog.
2. Anyone can post here, except JCH and Marvie Stupes.
3. There is no censorship.
4. As liberals, our mission and duty is to verbally kick the living shit out of wingnut traitors, torturers, warmongers, liars, and thieves.
5. No mercy for wingnuts!
6. Our terms are unconditional surrender, and there will be trials.
7. klake is a nazi; and his alter egos, sockpuppets, and alternative screen names are nazis, too.
Any questions?
@68 This is a liberal blog.
Then why are you here? You’re a sexist windbag who wants to escalate the war in Afghanistan.
mission and duty is to verbally kick the living shit out of wingnut traitors, torturers, warmongers, liars, and thieves
Yea, I can see you’re the sort that would knock a woman around and not think twice about it.
You’re a real trip, very progressive.
@65…FWIW, I didnt “step outside” – I was driving along I-5, parallel to the train, in my CO2 pumping Saleen. :)
@65 In most cases, when you’re dealing with government data, 2-year-old data are about as up-to-date as you can get.
ps Well I read the posts, too, and the point being made flew over or around that sexist head of yours. And there is more recent data in this case, you idiot. Still, I’m sure Don Joe will take all the help he can get, even if it’s yours.
You two must share a single brain.
@70…I think lebowski meant CO and not CO2….
@71…remember Karen, 105,000 per day riders by 2006…hehehehehehe
perhaps they really meant 105,000 riders per day by 2206.
Karen,
You seem to be a very bitter and judgmental person. I can see why you are conservative. Lighten up and you might actually find a friend or two. Loneliness is no way to spend your life.
It wasn’t a “suitcase full,” but John F. Kennedy delivered a fat wad of cash to Richard M. Nixon in 1950, a contribution from pro-Joe (McCarthy) Joe Kennedy.
Now that’s bipartisanship that us bi Americans can believe in.
Glad Karen got to meet the unofficial HA excreter @68.
Hey klake,
I haven’t seen you here for awhile. Was your time in the county jail relatively uneventful, or do you have more emotional scarring that will lead you even deeper into wingnuttery? In any event, welcome back.
From the ASS who hands out an “award” named after himself to conservative peeps on HA.
A very bitter and judgmental person – proud leftist that is!
Puddy,
Ah, c’mon, man. I’m not bitter or judgmental. The Golden Goat should be considered an honor. You felt honored at first; I don’t think it was until you’d received your third (a record!) that you changed your position. I’d love to receive an award from conservatives saying they thought I was too liberal. That would make my day.
@74 You seem to be a very bitter and judgmental person
A better guess: one of your clients after having received one of your inflated bills “for services performed.” You believe in the “rule of law” all right: if the price is high enough!
What a tub of lard!
Well, given the choices, I’d rather be a horses ass than the excrement that exits from it frequently on a daily basis. This is Tim Eyman’s chance to take time out of his busy day to actually push an initiative declaring David Goldstain, curator of the waste treatment facility HA Seattle, a “Horses Road Apple “?
(look it up if confused)
Where did all the light rail supporters go?
you mean they built light rail at over twice the original proposed budget and have barely 10% of the expected ridership
perhaps thats how they define SUCCESS!
SUCKERS!