I get a lot of nasty comments and emails accusing me of a lot of nasty things. So a big thanks to John for passing along this link to a diary on Daily Kos that pretty much sums up my response: “Message to any winger trolls.”
Liberals do not, DO NOT, NOT hate America. Fuck you if you think that. Fuck you if you think we should all be deported to Russia, or France, or even Canada. Nothing against Canada, or, hey, even France or Russia, but this is my home, just like it’s the home of millions and millions of other progressives who are not traitors, who aren’t America-haters.
Progressives and liberals DO NOT want the terrorists to win.
We DO NOT hate the troops.
We DO NOT hate the rich.
We DO NOT hate life.
We DO NOT want to turn you gay, or wipe out your religion, or make you have an abortion.
So stop saying it. And fuck you if you do, fuckers.
(Okay, maybe I wouldn’t mind turning JCH or Cynical gay… that’d be kind of funny.)
Read the whole thing.
But what if we do?
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002059.htm
lol@ Goldy, I second your last comment, but only if prr is their ‘girl’
[i]Okay, maybe I wouldn’t mind turning JCH or Cynical gay… that’d be kind of funny.[/i]
Well Goldy, you’re in luck because they probably already are.
“Liberals DO NOT, NOT Hate America”
Ummmmmmmmmmm
So Goldy…a double negative strategically placed meaning you are admitting Liberals hate America.
Revealing and sad Goldy.
Frankly, I don’t think you HATE AMERICA as much as you want to control the lives of others…particularly those who disagree with you. And I certainly don’t dump ALL Liberals into that category but the Socialist, Marxist< Leftist Seattle crowd for sure. These LEFTISTS demand protection of THEIR property and individual rights but don't hesitate to trod all over the rights of others...especially on property issues. The typical Seattle LEFTIST mantra is: "What's mine, is mine...but what's yours is OURS"!! I cite the Growth Management Act and the impact on property owners and the economies of rural areas. STIFLING.
So Goldy–
Why don’t you stop generalizing about Conservatives being neo-cons. Advise your pinheaded LEFTIST pals to do the same. You see we Conservatives:
1) DEFINITELY love America and wouldn’t even dream of undermining efforts when our tropps are in harms way on a mission.
2)DEFINITELY we love our troops.
3)DEFINITELY we love the poor and are among the most generous in supporting PRIVATE DONATIONS to help those in need (as opposed to LEFTISTS who merely suck all they can out of others) we donate generously…gladly.
4)DEFINITELY love innocent life yet recognize fighting terrorism has an unfortunate price. But we do what we can to avoid unnecessary loss of life.
5)DEFINITELY we love freedom of religion, could care less if you are gay (unless you want special rights and we detest abortion as a form of birth control.
SO STOP SAYING IT GOLDY AND ALL YOU OTHER PATHETIC LEFTIST PINHEADS!
PS–It would be kind of funny if we could turn jpgee straight!!
NAAAAAAH! I accept the little cocksucker for exactly what he is.
“I wouldn’t mind turning JCH gay”…………I thought gays were born that way? If Goldy can “turn” someone gay, can he “turn” a gay straight? Perhaps, Goldy, you can “turn” ALL gays straight? Then we wouldn’t have any more HUV/AIDS problems. [Get to work, Goldy!]
Mr C@4
AMEN Brother.
C 4 right on.
sorry Goldy. you get accused because many leftists push abortion and the gay life and do not appear to support our troops (Bahgdad Jim comes to mind). you are going to need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
I accidentally read the comments in #4. I usually just skip over most of the noise here, but this is just laughably wrong and deserves a response. The other comments are debatable too, but the first two are factually incorrect.
You see we Conservatives:
1) DEFINITELY love America and wouldn’t even dream of undermining efforts when our tropps are in harms way on a mission.
Unless a Democrat is president (see Bosnia and Somalia).
2)DEFINITELY we love our troops.
… as props in campaign ads.
You love them so much you try to cut their pay and benefits in a time of war. Kudos!
7. Bush has raised military pay several times. the troops overwhelming favor him, not you cowards that cut and ran in Somalia. or carter who sat while Iran embarrassed the US daily with our hostages. until we got a great President elected: Reagan.
Look who is pushing against women’s rights! The right-wing. This morose issue is a serious one that was created by the moronic moral morphosis. It is about pharmacists being able to refuse to fill aka honor any woman’s birth control prescription given her doctor. Just another control attempting to be imposed to take away our rights. If there is only one druggist in a small berg and he is against birt control a woman may have to drive many miles to locate another drug store that has a pharmacist without predjudice that will fill her prescription. Some may say this does not affect everyone, only users on the pill. WRONG! It is the principle involved that makes it a rights violation, a whittling away of people’s rights; the religious fanatics are taking away litle by little hoping we are all sleepers.
Cynicalafterbirth, again with all of your facination with the male sex organs….I think we can officially rename you Mr. Cynical’sOut
Goldy, I don’t think you should have to explain how Liberals think. We Liberals are good people and the propaganda that has been spread against us led by the Newt Gingrich’s of the world is un-American. (If there ever was such a thing.) Furthermore, Cynical I actually appreciated some of your comments today. You make a very valid point that all conservatives are not neo-cons, and that they are good, honest, decent people who are trying to live their lives just like we liberals are. I believe the difference comes with leadership. While we liberals suffer from a lack of strong, offensive leadership in the Democratic party, the good conservatives don’t realize that their party has been hijacked by those neo-cons who don’t hold traditional conservative values, but rather say they do to mask their illegitimacy.
You’re right Cynical. Most conservatives are good people, I just hope those good people don’t remain blind when it comes to their leadership.
Cynical’sOut, you are so absurd with your continual attempts to make me out to be your boyfriend. Never happen pal, no matter how hard you keep begging. I prefer the female companionship that your wife used to give you, until you found out your true calling. Seek help Cynical’sOut, remember, it is a choice, not a genetic thing. LMAO@OUT< CONITINUALLY
Robbed @ 8.
About the Khomeini situation, do you not find it odd…just, a little odd, that the day Reagan was sworn into office the hostages were released? Don’t say they had severe “gipp-a-phobia”, something else was going on there….just something to ponder.
PS. Cynical’sOut, this ‘little’ guy is 6’4″ and weighs 260lbs. Maybe your wife would be happier with a real man like me, than a ‘pike street patron’ like yourself
Jeffw@10. Good post. America is still a land of greatness and opportunity, once we drain the pool a few times it will get even better.
“Progressives and liberals DO NOT want the terrorists to win.”
…unless you define ‘terrorist’ as ‘freedom fighter’ (Michael Moore on the insurgency in Iraq).
cynical @ 4:
(normally I would quote in this case, but your writing style makes me cringe. Abuse of capital letters is a mortal sin. Say 20 ave marias. Jesus forgives you).
You make two points about loving the troops. Uh-huh. Does this mean that any questions about the wisdom of where these troops are right now and how long they are going to stay indicates that we lefties don’t love the troops? I don’t love the civilians who are giving orders to the troops now, and would like to see them in jail. The military simply follows the orders set down by those civilian leaders. When I hear you bellowing about the troops, I hear that as meaning “don’t question the civilian leadership”. I respectfully refuse.
You love the poor. Good. How much have you personally put into the church collection plate this year? Don’t lie, or I’ll know. If you’re more of a give to the United Way kind of guy, that counts.
What have you personally done to avoid the loss of innocent life? That seems to be the province of the troops you love to pieces. See above.
What do “special rights” mean to you? Is marrying someone you love a “special right”? Are you married cynical?
Freedom of religion? Good. We agree. You are free to practice whatever form of religion you like. You are free to go to church. You are free to have parades in the streets. You are free to pray and commune with the deity of your choice anywhere in the world you please. You are even free to proselytize as your faith demands, and I am free to smile, politely say that we are a Taoist household, and close the door on you.
You are not free to force public school teachers who are not members of your faith to preach your faith for you through “creation science”, “intelligent design”, or whatever else you wish to call it. That’s what God made Sunday school for.
I’m glad you don’t like abortion as a means of birth control. Neither do I. As a means of birth control, abortion is the most likely to have side effects, both physical and psychological. You don’t get to legislate that however. I thought you conservatives were against the government meddling in people’s lives?
And with this we’ll wrap around to the beginning. Real conservatives like small, unintrusive governments, sound fiscal management, and low taxes. If that was the philosophy, well, I disagree, but who wants to spend a bunch of time arguing with people who would simply like the government to leave them alone? It’s not unreasonable.
The conservative movement of the 21st century has enlarged, not diminished the Federal state. It spits on states rights by bringing lawsuits on states to force them to conform against the stated will of the people of these states. It seeks to expand American power abroad with force, since diplomacy hasn’t accomplished what they wanted. This movement is not merely comfortable with being pious themselves, but seeks to use the power of the state to bring more lambs into the flock.
I do not see traditional main-street conservatism in the modern Republican party. I might have to call and file a missing philosophy report. Thus we use phrases like “neo-cons” to differentiate between real conservatism and what we are against.
I don’t know if this is going to work (it might be too long), so I apologize in advance if this link requires cutting and pasting.
http://www.kintera.org/Account.....troops.htm
This administration has jerked around soldiers and veterans alike, not just in deployments, stop-loss, and sending them to war on false pretenses. They’ve also cut their pay and benefits. I especially like the soldiers’ pay point on the site I referenced because it is classic Bush: make a big announcement about something positive, then – when you think no one is looking – undermine it or cut it entirely.
the troops overwhelming favor him [Bush]
The enlisted men and their families sure don’t.
Great post JSA, agree with you 100%
there is not a thing wrong with real conservative, but the problem is now our great nation is in the hands of the ‘neocons’, ‘theocons’ and absolute wing nuts. God help our great land. Once, the land of the free and the home of the brave, fast changing to the land of the ‘self righteous zealots’ and the home of the ‘persecuted’
To quote the Bard, “me thinks thou doth protest too much,”
Liberalism is unpatriotic
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n.....E_ID=37777
EXCERPTS:
“ I’m confident the standard of patriotism is not to be measured by whether you agree with George W. Bush and, unlike what the Patriot Act might communicate, patriotism is not a love of government. Patriotism is not about how many flags one waves or some sort of unfounded emotional feeling one has on Independence Day. “
“ Patriotism is a love of country and can be strictly defined in two ways. “
“ First, patriotism is a love of the people of the nation and a love of the land. America is home, and Americans are fellow citizens. Home is not France or Germany, and fellow citizens are not Germans or Frenchmen. We are Americans. This love of people and land leads a patriot to fight for and stay vigilant in its protection. “
“ Secondly, patriotism is an allegiance to the ideas of a nation. The ideas of our country, contained within the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and writings of the founding era are our principles. These are not all-inclusive ideas, but are strict and exclusive. “
“ Thus, logically, if patriotism can be defined, there are those who are patriotic and those who are unpatriotic. “
“ Modern-day liberalism – which is really socialism or eventually communism – is unpatriotic. Those activists on both sides of the aisle who lobby for the implementation of liberalism are not patriots. They are enemies of the United States and will fight to stop America from being what it is intended to be. “
“ These enemies of the United States who flex power in the three branches of government do so without regard for label or political party. Previously, parties and labels had some sort of significance, but now the cancer of unpatriotic liberalism rules everywhere, while constitutionalists have little say. “
“ Patrick Henry, one of the greatest patriots seen by America, said in 1775, “Give me liberty or give me death.” The generally uneducated populace of today leaves us with the words, “Give me government or give me death.” “
“ Unpatriotic, liberal politicians are happy to comply and continue to take us down a road of immorality and fiscal disaster. “
“ Sen. Clinton, no mainstream conservative has branded you as unpatriotic. Yet, if patriotism is not just another demagogic word to throw around, then you don’t have it. “
“ Patriotism has meaning and it’s important, but it’s sorely lacking in American today. “
Liberals Hate America
http://www.lowering-the-bar.com/subpage89.html
EXCERPT
“ I used to think liberals meant well, but were just misguided. I no longer believe this. It’s obvious that liberals are intent on bringing about socialism in this country. They are trying to topple democracy and are attempting to separate this country from our Constitution. They hate freedom, they hate liberty, they hate our flag, they hate capitalism, and they hate freewill. In light of this, how can any reasonable person not conclude that liberals are bad for America? “
The only troops you get to see on camera, are the hand picked ones, like any gwdummy townhall meeting.
Bumper stickers saying “no war for oil”, get you banned,(and maybe arrested!)
You saw what happened when a dissenter got through!,(why dont we have armor on our vehicles?)
The only audience that was ever seen with bush, was hand picked well in advance.
jsa@15. Add to your list the issue a hand, a woman’s right to have her birth control prescription filled by ANY pharmacist is threatened. The fantanatics are working to take that right away by legislating a fanatical moral pharmacist has the right to refuse to fill a prescripton for birth control pills. This is another eroding of our rights and will have a tickle-down affect unless it is stopped.
Cynical gives plenty at his Church, as the accountant he is, he has found a way how to write off his Church Tithings. I asked him how I could write off my Golds membership, but he was too busy shredding Business Is Ass Wipeing documents.
He complains about Olympia taxes, but refuses to believe what they do in DC has any effect on our State budget. Glad I have my own accountant, that maybe got a degree from some place else than Devry.
PS.
Jeff I thought your comments were well thought out as well. but I will reserve judgement on your politics.
Diggindude et al:
Instead of all this opinion and ancedotes on the troops, why don’t you see who the troops actually voted for last year?
Just askin’.
Jon;
why don’t you read “What’s the matter with Kansas”
Appreciate the sensible threads today, much better read.
Funny, then why do liberals always take actions that show they hate America and want the terrorist to win? Ward Churchill “911 victims were little Eichmans”, Patty Murray espousing Osama Bin Laden’s “Philanthropy” to school children, Jim McDermott giving our enemy a pep talk before we go to war, Susan Lindauer – aid to Democrat congress woman Carloyn Mosley Braun – convicted of spying for Iraq, CNN and Eason Jordan – the mouthpiece for Saddam Hussein – however Saddam wants it slanted he gets it, Democrat Barbara Lee of Bekely – the ONLY congressional representative to vote AGAINST going to Afghanistan. Liberals burning the flag, spitting on our troops adn running down the country.
Yeah man, we can feel the love.
What does “What’s the Matter with Kansas” have to do with who the military voted for?
Jon@23,
I read that book. What perplexes you liberals so much is really no surprise to anyone else. You liberals always chime about how people in red staes “vote against ther economic interests”. Well the truth is that those people are principled. No matter how much money you offer them, they won’t sell out their moral principles. That used to be something the liberals would admire, but now that they are the ones trying to offer material wealth in exchange for losing one’s principle’s they dismiss those that hold to their beliefs and principles as undereducated backwoods rubes.
I find it hypocritical that the very same liberals who are protesting Iraq were silent on Kosovo and Bosnia when Clinton sent in troops without UN authorization. He even hired Haliburton.
Isn’t odd that under Clinton, the death benefit for soldiers was $4,000. In 2000, it was raised to $12,000 under Bush. recently it has been raised to $200,000.
Yeah, Democrat really care for our troops. Nice how they showed it in Vietnam – by spitting on them when they returned.
VCRW
How does Churchill’s comment mean he hates America? He hates corporate capitalism, but that’s not an American invention (talk to the de Medici family). Patty Murray was describing why Osama is loved in Pakistan–because of his philanthropy (no quotes needed; it’s true). Why that means she hates America, I have no idea. Do you hate America if you address the truth?
Which liberals are burning the flag and spitting on troops? Can you refer to some accounts?
Jon;
Even if your assumption that the military vote goes GOP, WTMWK, explains why people vote against their own self interest all the time.
Do you think if they knew that their pay and benifets were being cut, that their familes ability to declare bankruptcy do to their absence is revoked, that their veteran benifets were cut and they need to pay more in, that Haliburton gets to hire security to do their jobs at 10 times the pay. That they are sent into combat under armoured, that they are sent with no exit strategy. that they are ordered to use techniques only known to experts on how to torture an Iraqi male, then hung out to dry as thugs.
Bush says one thing to them, then does the exact opposite. This is not supporting the troops.
Do you think if they could hear past the Republican Noise machine, that they would still vote that way?
and again VCRW
The troops in Kosovo were part of a true multinational force, unlike Bush’s foray into Iraq. And they were deployed in response to a genocidal emergency–one we’d already missed in Bosnia.
Under Clinton, how many death benefits did he have to pay out? How many has Bush had to pay? And you’ve ignored the litany of other hardships the administration has inflicited on our military. A National Guardsman in Oregon just lost his lawsuit to keep him from being held against his will in the military until 2031!! Twenty-thirty-one! They don’t even get a free fucking plane ride home from battle! I’d rather be spit on than pay my own way back from the war.
VC
Like Michael Schaivo holding out against his finacial interest. Not princple there, but murderer. Get real. it isn’t only about financial interests, but to the Repubs everything is Money.
“Don’t forget Poland”
VRCW:
I agree with you. My point with the military vote is that it was heavily in favor of the President, so all this opinion on what the troops may or may not think means nothing compared to fact.
And if those folks out there really want show they don’t hate the troops, criticism from fellow progressives of fellow progressives on stories like this one would go a long way in my opinion. As stated in a previous post, the people in command are certainly targets for protest. Why we/you/progressives tolerate the antics displayed in the story I linked I can’t say.
A National Guardsman in Oregon just lost his lawsuit to keep him from being held against his will in the military until 2031!!
That’s awful, I was hoping he would win that case. This is going to hurt recruitment even more than the Iraq war already has. Nobody will want to join if they find out they may have to serve into their 50s!
Instead of all this opinion and ancedotes on the troops, why don’t you see who the troops actually voted for last year?
Just askin’.
Comment by Jon
Dont you think they are “forced” to vote for bush?
How could you be in the military, and go against command, without being seen as a pussy, or as being un-patriotic?
I would bet a secret tally of support, would show a quite different picture.
Many military families, have regrets about voting for bush.
Glad to see that you libs are still in denial
The biggest problem with Republicans is their dislike of crack cocaine. Crack is a great drug and everyone should use it. Most of us democrats already do, but obviously democrats are in the minority in this country. But back to the issue at hand:
It’s not that I hate this country, I just hate white people. And I don’t hate all the troops, just the white ones. I don’t hate the rich, just rich white people. I wouldn’t want to force anyone to have an abortion, except white women impregnated by non-black men. I don’t want to turn anyone gay, but I believe most white people are already. Oh yeah, and fuck you if you disagree with me. Don’t ever expect a democrat to be polite you dumb motherfuckering biatches!
Cynical @ 4
So … when is your Dear Leader going to quit screwing around in Iraq and start fighting Al Qaeda?
“I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority. I am truly not that concerned about him.” – George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
Danw:
I’m sorry, but your post really bothers me, because you (and the “Kansas” book) really are saying that the voters are too stupid, and in particular, the military. So, let me get this straight, the voters must of been really dumb in the 80’s (Reagan/HW Bush), but then got smart in the 90’s (Clinton) but then turned idiot again.
Can’t you accept that may be the folks in the military actually weighed both sides and still voted in favor of Bush, becuase of what Kerry represented? Why is it so hard to CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY that the voters a. Understood the message the left was saying and b. just plain didn’t like it? Didn’t Bill Clinton (centrist) teach the Democratic party anything?
Isn’t odd that under Clinton, the death benefit for soldiers was $4,000. In 2000, it was raised to $12,000 under Bush. recently it has been raised to $200,000.
Cite your source, please.
“Dont you think they are “forced” to vote for bush?”
What’s your proof or even some evidence of such a statement beside your belief? Wouldn’t voting be a good way to send a protest statement if the military folks were truly not happy? Also, get your stories straight: either they voted for Bush becuase they were forced to (and have some backing for it) or they were too stupid to figure out that Bush was hurting them.
Jeffw @ 12
Why be bashful about the truth? The Gipper, whom rightys revere as some kind of god who brought down the evil Soviet empire (which is bullshit), paid ransom. He traded weapons for hostages, violating laws and committing impeachable offenses in the process. Our enemies have been kidnapping people ever since, having learned by Reagan’s example that the U.S. will pay handsomely for hostages.
I’m not aware of any good military/veteran polling on their choice for President. What I do know is that officer sentiment is not the same as enlisted sentiment. The officers tended to strongly back Bush in pre-election polling; however, enlisted personnel were much less likely to be favorable.
You can connect the dots on the reasons for that one, surely.
jsa @ 20
Jesus forgives Mr. Cynical? No, you are mistaken. See my post in previous thread wherein I explain that Mr. Cynical has already died and gone to Hell, where he found himself married to a Democrat — the lovely and ever pleasant Mrs. Cynical.
TorridJoe@35,
Google Ward Churhill.
“I want the state gone: Transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether.”
That pretty much means he hates America. Try google if you don’t believe me.
torridjoe:
I see your point, but to say that there is this huge/majority contigent out there in the military that doesn’t like the President isn’t backed by the polls or results.
Goldy, why do you buy into this troll bait? I’ve quit responding to it. It’s not my function in life to provide instant gratification to emotionally disturbed right-wingers who feel insecure unless they can get a rise by questioning someone’s patriotism. I know what I did in Vietnam 35 years ago, so I’m not interested in what anyone else thinks of my patriotism. I do, however, take seriously those who express an intention to beat up liberals or inflict physical harm on anti-war protesters, because frankly I think some of them mean it. All you have to do is look at the pathological anger some of these people have and it’s hard to believe they don’t mean it. My answer to that is short, sweet, and to the point: If any of them try acting out their fantasies on me or my family, I’m going to shoot them, and I will shoot to kill.
Torridjoe@37 and @35,
First of all Osama Bin Laden never built any day care centers. That was a lie. Cite me proof of this?
It is very telling of one’s slant when their gut reaction is to take a positive view of our enemy.
As to people dying under Clinton and death benefits under Clinton, there was of course Somalia and those people that dies in the USS Cole:
Chief Petty Officer Richard Costelow, Morrisville, Pennsylvania.
Signalman Seaman Recruit Cheron Luis Gunn, Rex, Georgia.
Seaman James Rodrick McDaniels, Norfolk, Virginia.
Seaman Recruit Lakiba Nicole Palmer, San Diego, California.
Operations Specialist 2nd Class Timothy Lamont Saunders, Ringgold, Virginia.
Ensign Andrew Triplett, Macon, Mississippi.
Seaman Apprentice Craig Bryan Wibberley, Williamsport, Maryland.
Hull Maintenance Technician 3rd Class, Kenneth Eugene Clodfelter, Mechanicsville, Virginia.
Mess Management Specialist Seaman Lakeina Monique Francis, Woodleaf, North Carolina.
Information Systems Technician Seaman Timothy Lee Gauna, Rice, Texas
Engineman 2nd Class Mark Ian Nieto, Fond du Lac, Wisconsin.
Electronics Warfare Technician 3rd Class Ronald Scott Owens, Vero Beach, Florida.
Engineman Fireman Joshua Langdon Parlett, Churchville, Maryland.
Fireman Apprentice Patrick Howard Roy, Cornwall on Hudson, New York.
Electronics Warfare Technician 2nd Class Kevin Shawn Rux, Portland, North Dakota.
Mess Management Specialist 3rd Class Ronchester Mananga Santiago, Kingsville, Texas
Fireman Gary Graham Swenchonis Jr., Rockport, Texas
I don’t have anger toward liberals. I merely wish to educate you so you will understand while you lose so badly. I would actually vote for Democrats if they would actually be for defending our country. I did vote for them for 40 years. But then it became apparent that the radical left wing had taken over. Write me off as a right wing troll if that makes you feel better. Just get used to losing elections. No amount of slick advertising will convince Americans you are willing to defend them until you actions match your rhetoric.
Joe@37,
Are you forgetting the deaths on the USS Cole?
Dubyasux:
Too much coffee this morning? Just a joke!
Look, I certainly don’t question your patriotism, but what I do question is the lack of self-criticism from both the left and the right. Ward Churchill or Michael Moore makes some way over the top statement and (at least it seems) nobody on the left says “Hey, that’s way over the top, knock it off”. The right is also guilty of it (I certainly think Tom DeLay needs to rethink his future) so I’m not letting myself off the hook.
I can’t remember who said this first, but it seems to sum up the discussion on this blog: “The party in power is smug and arrogant. The party out of power is insane”.
tj@47,
It has been widely reported:
“Big increase likely in GI death benefits”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6891515/
From the Washington Post:
“The gratuity, introduced in 1908, had grown to only $3,000 by the time of the Persian Gulf War in 1991. It was raised to $6,000 after that war and boosted to $12,000 in 2003. At that time, Congress also made it tax-free — before that, half was taxable — and tied future increases to military pay raises.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Jan31.html
VCRW @ 52
Way to take the comments out of context. He’s not talking about hating America, he’s talking about the failure of the state apparatus:
If I defined the state as being the problem, just what happens to the state? I’ve never fashioned myself to be a revolutionary, but it’s part and parcel of what I’m talking about. You can create through consciousness a situation of flux, perhaps, in which something better can replace it. In instability there’s potential. That’s about as far as I go with revolutionary consciousness. I’m actually a de-evolutionary. I don’t want other people in charge of the apparatus of the state as the outcome of a socially transformative process that replicates oppression. I want the state gone: transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether.
So what does that look like?
There’s no U.S. in America anymore. What’s on the map instead? Well let’s just start with territoralities often delineated in treaties of fact—territoralities of 500 indigenous nations imbued with an inalienable right to self-determination, definable territoralities which are jurisdictionally separate. Then you’ve got things like the internal diasporic population of African Americans in internal colonies that have been established by the imposition of labor patterns upon them. You’ve got Appalachian whites. Since the U.S. unilaterally violated its treaty obligations, it forfeits its rights—or presumption of rights—under international law. Basically, you’ve got a dismantlement and devolution of the U.S. territorial and jurisdictional corpus into something that would be more akin to diasporic self-governing entities and a multiplicity of geographical locations. A-ha, chew on that one for awhile.
http://www.satyamag.com/apr04/churchill.html
jon @ 53
agreed.
Sux@49,
“Our enemies have been kidnapping people ever since, having learned by Reagan’s example that the U.S. will pay handsomely for hostages.”
Uh they were kidnapping them BEFORE Reagan got into office. Or weren’t you alive durin the Iranian hostage crisis? Under whose presidency did they return to the US?????
VCRW @ 56
What does the Cole have to do with paying death benefits for soldiers in combat, or the building of a coalition? The Cole wasn’t in combat; it was attacked in port.
and @ 58
so I missed the part where you admit you got it wrong. It wasn’t 4K, it was 6K…and your article says 12K, not 200K.
We DO NOT hate the troops.
Yeah the wacky thing is that even the discussion about whether troops should be deployed in one place or another is seen as “against” them. Its ridiculous. Of course, the loudest rants come from those who have never served.
TO JSA @ 20
That was absolutly beautiful!! Truly a pleasure to read some commom sense over the muck.
TJ @ 47
Care to cite your sources! Two hundred thousand dollars for death benefits? Lets see it.
VCRW @ 31
I think ya got the wrong occupation. The flag burning and trro spitting was 39 years ago. Even I, a Democrat, would never tolorate disrespect of our soldiers and OUR flag.
Isn’t it too bad most righties seem to thing we libs are your nemesis, when in fact were usually more alike than youd care to believe. But that dosent make for good shit slinging, now does it?
VCRW, the figures discussed in the article you cite don’t resemble the figures you quote in #34. You underreported the death gratuity under Clinton and significantly overreported the current gratuity.
Joe@59,
Well if he wants the US gone, “out of existence” that pretty much means he doesn’t like it. Did you think Hitler really loved the Jews when he determined they should be “out of existence?”
Words have meaning. If he doesn’t mean it, he should say it.
About the best way you can spin Ward Churchill is to say he is an anarchist. And I supposed the “little eichman” comment was all taken out of context as well huh?
TJ @ 47
Care to cite your sources! Two hundred thousand dollars for death benefits? Lets see it.
I was quoting VCRW in #34. Sorry for the confusion.
VCRW @ 55
Republicans aren’t defending Americans in Iraq, they’re getting them killed, and turning their backs on those who come home maimed. If you really mean what you say, you would be raising holy hell about the policies and actions of this administration.
Dubyasux @ 54
I voiced plenty of remarks yesterday to basically stir the pot on this board.
However, I think your comments do merit a heartfelt response.
Like you, I am a veteran. My time was spent as an enlisted man (86-92) and went through Panama & the first Gulf War and feel that I do have a qualified opinion on the subject of this war, the military, anti-war protestors and protestors in general.
I do not agree with what is going on in Iraq nor did I vote for Bush in this past election. Limiting the needed post 911 responses that I certainly agree with to one specific geographical region just does not make sense, but a response did have to be made (in my opinion).
I have lived in downtown Seattle since 1997 and have seen first hand the results of the protestors. The protests I have witnessed (my home is very near Seattle Community College where the majority of these protests either start or end) and in my opinion, are more of a social event than it is a valid protest for MANY of the attendees. These events typically include destruction of public & private property, graffiti, and having the ultimate goal of the Seattle police showing up in Riot Gear, if it a successful protest, tear gear is used. Quite Frankly, I see absolutely no connection between patriotism and vandalism.
I find that the overwhelming majority of protestors in Seattle are nothing but common vandals.
You would be hard pressed to convince me that protests in this area actually benefit anyone and only cause damage to the area they are held.
While protestors do have rights to assemble and voice their opinion, What about the rights of the people that live in these protest destination areas? Why should my property be damaged? Why should my business and personal life come to a standstill?
As a taxpayer, business and property owner, should I not be absolutely pissed off when protestors are eventually arrested in the city releases them all and then gives them a settlement?
Honestly, I do not want to see ANYONE hurt but I do think that what goes on with Protests in this city is far from legal or honorable.
I look forward to your response.
#7. Bush has raised military pay several times. the troops overwhelming favor him, not you cowards that cut and ran in Somalia. or carter who sat while Iran embarrassed the US daily with our hostages. until we got a great President elected: Reagan.
Comment by robbed — 4/13/05 @ 8:11 am
Robbed @7 – Bush fought those increases tooth and nail, and the Repubs also fought to keep a military exemption from the new MBNA-friendly bankruptcy law. Actions speak louder than words.
BTW – on cutting an running, remember how the Gipper left Lebanon with his tail between his legs? Why is it that when Republicans intervene overseas (to defend United Fruit, Chevron, or some other mega-corporate interest) they’re speading “freedom” – but when Dems go (generally to stop some silly genocide somewhere, those nutty kooks!) it’s treasonous nation-building? Are we at war with Oceania now, or was that last month?
I love America, but I sure do hate what you right-wing religious proto-fascists are doing to it.
And I’m with Dubyasux, there are plenty of liberals who know how to shoot straight, and we won’t go quietly when you come for us.
I don’t see why I need to publicly disapprove of every stupid or evil thing done by someone identified as left wing and I resent being told that my views are the same as theirs or that we are all alike, just as the conservative posters (well most anyway) would probably be offended if told they were just like Eric Rudolph or David Duke.
And from the posters here you would think there was a conservative tidal wave sweeping the country. Yet if 70,000 voters in Ohio had voted differently, we would have a Democratic president. The electorate is very closely divided.
TJ@65,
The fact is that the benefit was doubling under Bush. Even though Clinton got those sailors killed in the USS Cole (I cannot post the names of the sailors because apparently it is not allowed by the liberal censors here.) and they only got $6,000 each. Yeah I originally said $4,000 (must be a conspiracy huh?). Under Bush DOUBLED. And now it will got to $250,000.
“Pentagon yesterday announced plans to increase death payments by nearly $250,000 to families of U.S. troops killed in combat zones.”
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Jan31.html
Under Bush the benefit (it isn’t a gratuity.) rose 41 fold. That means is 41 times what is was under Clinton.
vcrw @ 66
another pointless analogy. If you put the Jews out of existence, there is nothing left. If you remove the state apparatus, the people and the land remain. If you think America is more about the CIA and the Federal Reserve than its people and land, then we have a sharp disagreement. His point was that if the state isn’t working, get rid of the state. If you tell me you think the IRS should be abolished, would it make sense for me to say you hate America? I’m curious as to your answer.
Which liberals are burning the flag and spitting on troops? Can you refer to some accounts? -Comment by torridjoe— 4/13/05 @ 9:30 am
Does the name Rachel Corrie ring a bell?
“And thus I clothe my naked villany
With odd old ends stol’n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil.” –From King Richard III (I, iii, 336-338)
X@70,
“but when Dems go (generally to stop some silly genocide somewhere, those nutty kooks!)” – X
Where did Democrats ever intervene to stop Genocide? Certainly not Rwanda.
PET @ 74
Rachel Corrie was murdered by a bulldozer in Israel. What does that have to do with my question?
VCRW, it appears you’re confusing the “death gratuity” with payments from life insurance policies. Also, the article notes that this proposal was only put forward after significant foot-dragging on the part of the administration. They were shamed into it.
Toridjoe @ 76
Rachel Corrie was not murdered. She was a naiive kid who got used by a left wing organization and eneded up dying for her mistake.
“Stupid is as stupid does” – Forrest Gump
prr @78
She wasn’t murdered? A bulldozer driven by the state of Israel ran her over! You’ve got a severe reality problem, there.
And I’ll ask again–what on earth does that have to do with my question?
VCRW @ several:
most of what you bring up with regard to Churchill, flag-burners, etc. represents the absolute fringe of the Left. Do you want us to admit that there are left-wing nutjobs? OK. Sure. Churchill is a nutjob. He holds no elective office, and no position of authority in the Democratic party. If it wasn’t for the fact that right-wingers constantly harp on the guy, I probably never would have heard of him.
It’s disingenous to associate these folks with the mainstream Left. That’s a bit like saying that armed neo-Nazis represent the soul of the GOP.
The problem is, it works for you. So keep flinging those feces against the wall. Some of it will stick.
Military Kids Allegedly Harassed at School — by Teachers
” Children of military parents across Maine are being harassed in school, in some cases by teachers who claim the little ones’ mothers and fathers are wrong to fight for their country, according to families’ complaints.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79857,00.html
VCRW @ 75
Kosovo?
Wayne said: “I don’t see why I need to publicly disapprove of every stupid or evil thing done by someone identified as left wing…”
Don’t you think silence = implicit condoning? I’m not asking you personally to criticize every stupid thing, but I fail to see the logic of silence over the stupid acts but when a guy like Joe Liberman gets “out of line”, off with his head! (which the right is doing/has done with folks like John McCain). I don’t mean to use a broad brush, everyone has their own opinions, but stupid and evil acts by anyone need to be pointed out and denounced as many people as possible. I don’t believe in giving passes because their party affilation is the same as mine.
cynical @ 5
How about READING the friggen artical, seems prety id wasnt a double negitive as you proclaim, but a reiteration…kinda like your love for the troops. Get off.
jsa@80,
Well if that is what you do to the other side isn’t it fair to do that to you?
And I can say I have spent time on both “sides”. Have you ever even attended a Republican party event or tried to meet the people? I doubt it. They are very nice people. Not the rabid haters I was raised to believe (can you tell I come from a family of Democrats?). In fact, I can say that in my experience I have seen more compassion from those that call themselves Republicans than those that call themselves Democrats.
I am sure there are Democrats who are sincere, I just guess that in 40 years as an active party member, I never met many. At Democrat gathering there was always a rich Democrat to whom everyone had to treat like little lord (or lady) fauntleroy.
So far, I have not seen such a thing at Republican events. The representatives and local leaders are on the same level as everyone else. I would have expected to see that at the Democrat events. Strange.
Make an example of your/our own first, then make an example of the guy on the other side of the fence. I am all for that mentality, we have been too lax on dealing with political icons mis-deeds both on the right and the left. The truth is that if they actuall wanted a real ethics commitee they’d get outsiders to research and report back, instead of Ron “what problem” Sims-ing themselves.
toridjoe @ 79
As to your question, I don’t know and I don’t really care to answer it as it was not a question towards me.
As to Rachel Corrie, any person who chooses to stand in front of a moving Bull Dozer and dares them to run over her certainly is not murdered, it is either stupidity or insanity.
Is it unfortunate: yes.
Was it a dumb act that only she can be held accountable for: yes. That was her choice.
prr @ 87
so if I come trying to rob your house, and you see that I have a gun and come to meet me at the door, and I shoot you–that wouldn’t be murder? Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind.
So the only thing that kept the Chinese student from being stupid or insane, was the fact that the tank didn’t run him over?
TJ@77,
It does not say the administration was dragging it’s feet, it implies the Pentagon was. And there is no example cited, just the reporter’s spin.
“Under pressure from Congress, the Pentagon yesterday announced plans to increase death payments by nearly $250,000 to families of U.S. troops killed in combat zones.”
“Under the Pentagon’s plan, a one-time, tax-free “death gratuity” paid to survivors of military men and women killed in the line of duty would rise from $12,420 to $100,000. The government also would increase the limit of life insurance coverage for service members by $150,00 to $400,000. The government would pay the premiums on this extra coverage for troops in combat zones.”
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Jan31.html
Who controls congress? Republicans.
jsa@80,
I give you credit for recognizing Churchill as a nutjob. Now if only torridjoe could see that.
While my nephew was in Iraq Al (totally demented and not to bright) Franken was on stage to cheer up the troops.
he started making jokes about Dubya and got resoundly booed for his efforts. Funny how Al seemed to have neglected to report that to his Air America listeners.
My nephew is back now. He back at his job as a NYC police officer. In his opinion if you were to report all of the crime in NYC the way the press reports the crime in IRAQ none of us would ever want to visit the big apple.
Torridjoe @ 88
That’s not an equal comparrison by any means.
She knew the risks and died in te process.
But you do bring up a great point. Because our courts have become so twisted, if you come to rob my house and you have a gun, I am unfortunate enough to shoot and kill you before you can do the same to me. I am the criminal for doing that,
How is that just justice?
prr @ 87
If you want to argue Rachel Corrie was stupid or insane for standing in front of a bulldozer, don’t you also have to agree that the Chinese student standing in front of a tank was just as stupid or insane? If not, then your view of the protester’s mental acuity is based on whether or not you agree with his/her politics.
And regardless of the wisdom of her actions, if it is true as some witnesses contend that the bulldozer driver actually saw her standing there, wouldn’t this be considered murder, or at least manslaughter?
prr @ 92
the Chinese student didn’t know the risk of standing in front of an Army tank? WTF are you talking about? And you completely ignore the relevant point–how is a person’s naivete at all relevant to whether the person doing the killing is committing murder or not?
as for your perception of law–what jurisdiction do you live in where what you describe is illegal? I’m not aware of any place in this country that does not allow you to shoot and kill an intruder into your home.
Jon @ 57
Not coffee, I’m serious. There are people in the grip of heated passion who openly discuss committing violence against liberals, and without going into details, I’ve encountered a few of them (without trying to). While I believe our resident troll, prr, is just throwing words out to piss us off, it is nevertheless obvious the Far Right includes some extremely angry individuals; and if you pay attention to what they’re doing, you’ll see they’re talking to each other in ways that create a mob mentality and give peer approval to violent hatred of their political opponents. The jump from group approval of hatred and violence to individuals acting on it is a short one. America is not northern Ireland yet, but I don’t think we can afford to ignore the rhetoric of hate and violence that is out there. For this reason, I take what I consider to be prudent precautions (such as keeping my identity secret) and for other reasons — the nature of my job, at one time we lived in a crime-infested neighborhood, and other — I long ago put self-defense measures in place. Naturally I hope the latter will never have to be used. But should I find myself in a situation of extremity, I will not pussyfoot around.
wayne @ 93
The chinese student in Tianamen Square assumed the risk that the tank may run over him and was successful in his pursuit of that risk.
Rachel Corrie was not.
I believe that they both understood the risks they were taking and have to accept the results.
I would also agree with the statement that for them to blame either the tank driver or the Bulldozer operator for running over them would be stupid or insane.
When you stack the odds of winning a game of chicken against a bulldozer, do not be surprised when you get killed in the process.
Toridjoe @ 94 see my response at 96 for the chinese student question.
As to the home invasion.
While I am not an attorney or in law enforcement, my understanding is this: If the burglar were killed in my house I may be alright. However, if he/she is able to stagger out either injured or were to die on say my front lawn and then die, I would have a real problem.
Can you tell me differently?
VCRW @75 – Where did Democrats ever intervene to stop Genocide? Certainly not Rwanda.
We could start with Kosovo (as previously stated) and Somolia (as I referred to in the post) – and former President Clinton was so warmly thanked by the Rethugs for his humanitarian efforts in both cases – probably because Republican Party seems to believe that our national interest is defined by the presence of oil (or a shortage of fundamentalist Christians).
BTW, when it comes to hate, Ward Churchill’s got nothing on Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Bill O’Falafel and Rush.
prr @ 97
where they die has no bearing on the situation. It’s where you shoot them. Only if you follow them out and shoot them again are you in potential trouble, because you are no longer acting purely in self-defense.
Your statement that it’s OK to murder someone for being stupid is bizarre, unsupported by any law that I’m aware of, and fundamentally idiotic. Of COURSE you blame the driver! It was their hands and feet that directed the machine they were driving, to kill a human being with it.
Jon @ 57
“Look, I certainly don’t question your patriotism, but what I do question is the lack of self-criticism from both the left and the right.”
What we are finding is that the right wingers never admit error or accept criticism, and if we do, it invites attack. Political discourse has fundamentally changed in this country. In 1988, Newt Gingrich exhorted to his fellow Republicans,
“The left at its core understands in a way Grant understood after Shiloh that this is a civil war, that only one side will prevail, and that the other side will be relegated to history. This war has to be fought with the scale and duration and savagery that is only true of civil wars. While we are lucky in this country that our civil wars are fought at the ballot box, not on the battlefields, nonetheless it is a civil war.”
Gingrich’s fellow Republicans took the cue, and ever since then, they have set aside discussion and waged what they conceive as warfare against liberalism and the Democratic Party, whom they regard as enemies, not competitors.
Under these circumstances, self-criticism simply creates opportunities for the aggressive political opponent, and they are not interested in discussion anyway, so it’s tactically foolish to give such advantages to the opponent with nothing in return from them.
Goldy – Thanks for the hat tip
prr – some reasonable comments for a change. Thanks for not voting for the worst president we’ve ever had. Now if only you’d stop accusing people on this comment board of helping bin Laden, sorry I doubt I will ever see Islamists post on a blog name “Horse’s Ass”…
vcrw – most liberals have condemned Churchill probably just on the basis of his “combat teams” remark. Again, TJ, actually READS what the guy has written to form his own opinion. The guy is almost certainly on the fringe but that certainly doesn’t justify wingers like Insta-Jerk clown Glenn Reynolds painting him as the face of the Democratic Party. That’s just plain propagandistic bullshit.
Another thing with you wingers – there’s always litmus tests with you guys like “Condemn Churchill!”. After you pass one there’s always another, then another, then another.. The goal of this gauntlet of litmus tests is that once you come out the other end it’s well I guess you were a Republican after all. See that wasn’t so hard… If you still say you’re a Democrat then I guess by then you’re an Alan Colmes or a Zell Miller. Sheesh..
torridjoe @ 99
So if I walk down the interstate and am hit by a car, the driver has murdered me or have I committed suicide?
Dubyasux: I would agree all this discussion about violence against somebody for their belief is just plain wrong. I would add that there has been an increasing amount of passion against the President, as shown here. Both sides are guilty.
TJ @ 59
That sure sounds like the Confederate Counties of America, complete with slavery. Didn’t we already fight this civil war once? It cost more lives than all the rest of our wars combined. Will we have to fight it again, as the unwanted fruit of the rantings of these nutcakes?
Mr X @ 98
Somalia was actually Bush Sr. Clinton was left holding the bag when he assumed office. It was actually his experience getting fucked over in this manner by the father, that caused Clinton to decline action in late December/early January 2000-01 regarding the Cole bombing, once it was determined that it was al-Qaeda. Rather than take action and then immediately pass things over to a new group, they put the brief in the hands of Condi Rice and the NSC and said “here’s what we know.” The Bush administration, now tasked with making an appropriate response to the bombing, simply refused to acknowledge it.
VCRW @ 61
Now here’s an example of a dog chasing its tail if there ever was one.
John @ 101
I was only saying the bin laden comments and the Nick berg comments to provoke “thehim”.
I do however feel that there are better ways to protest this war. Most approporaitely by contacing our legislators, not by publicly voicing it to the world.
ppr @ 69
If I may, i’d like to comment back. First, I honor you as a vet, and your opinion on the current war state. But let me qoute you if I may; “poresting actaully supports our enemies making you an enemy of our nation.
As such, you should be dealt with in a severe fashion.
Unfortunately, it would be illegal to shoot protestors on site, but I don’t think I would object to that action”
…or…
“large numbers of people do find public liberal beatings acceptable.”
…or…
“Hey, I have to say, when it comes to protestors, I would not shed a tear if a few of these ended up dead from time to time.”
…but now you comment “Honestly, I do not want to see ANYONE hurt”. So where exactly DO you stand?
Wait theres more; you mention that “I find that the overwhelming majority of protestors in Seattle are nothing but common vandals.
You would be hard pressed to convince me that protests in this area actually benefit anyone and only cause damage to the area they are held.” So where are the other examples of mass demonstrations turning violent? I seem to recall pro and anti war protestors coexisting (for the most part on opposing streets).
Are you even willing to acknowledge the fact the not every single individule involved in the WTO mess was either a) “common vandals”, or b) “failed to see all the police in storm trooper gear” when it was the POLICE that was driving the crouds, not the other way around.
I was IN the riot, not by choice, but because of POLICE design. there are many video commantaries on the subject with a vrey non partisan view that spell the tactical progression of the SPD. \and if you recall the entire situation and how the police handled made them a laughing stock world wide.
Your level of annoyance at what happen is totally valid and right on…for the most point. But bear in mind the media and police were notified in advance of the bulk of portesting, and failed to prepair…even they now admit that. As for the thugs and anarcrists…they’re the ones who should have been the focal target, and because of a few, everything went to shit (isnt that the way it usually works?). But with that size of a group and the ensuing resistance (and I resisted, because all I wanted to do is go home to my family and was gassed, chased, badgered and hearded like catle AWAY from my destination).
So does that validate EVERYBODY that moved inmasse as thugs, villians and criminals? How about expressing some distain towards the authority that forced that mass towards your neighborhood and into a trap, cause that is exactly what they did. If the polititions would have at least let the friggen Metro run to help shuttle common folks AWAY from that mess, it likely would have turned out much differently.
side note…day two mas more of the same, but am I to risk my employment cause the cops cant handle their own city….I think not
prr @ 96
On the contrary, I would blame the tank driver and the bulldozer driver for running over an unarmed person in front of them, if they saw them. I can’t think of any excuse for running over an unarmed person if you know they are there. If the tank had run over the student, I can’t help but think you would consider him a patriot and martyr, as would I. Therefore, whatever you think of Rachel Corrie’s politics, I can’t imagine how you can defend the fact that she may have been intentionally, or at least knowingly, run over.
VCRW @ 66
He does not represent the Democratic Party, speak for Democrats, or reflect the views of Democrats.
VCRW @ 69
So why are you pretending he does?
VCRW @ 80:
I don’t associate Republicans with neo-Nazis. The legislative record is bad enough without having to make things up out of whole cloth.
And actually, yes and yes. Most of my family are Republicans, most of my customers in my consulting biz are business owners, and as such, Republicans, and I even have been to Caucus once back in 1988. The next year, they eliminated the caucus in Washington State (was it something I said? I was kind of a shit in those days), so I haven’t been back.
Let me make something very very clear. My objections are with the leadership of the GOP and their various support organizations. Half the country are Republicans. Certainly they don’t all eat babies at dinner. None are served at our family dinners.
The Republican rank-and-file are mostly perfectly decent people who mean well. They think they’re being taxed to death and aren’t seeing the results of those taxes in their neighborhoods. Every time I write a check to the IRS, I think the same thing. My answer is to tell my politicans to start spending money on roads, schools, and social programs that are actually of use to people. Stuffing the military, subsidizing big business and big agriculture, while kicking the bricks out of the social safety net is not the answer.
Some are good, pious, churchgoing people who believe their faith is an unvarnished good in the world and seek to expand it. They don’t see that this makes a lot of the country really uncomfortable, and that while, yes, a little bit of moral fiber would probably do the nation’s G.I. a lot of good, we are too big, too diverse, and too multicultural to be mandating this through the state.
Some see all the folks with their hands out on the onramps, or wandering around Pioneer Square drunk and drugged out of their minds and think the social safety net is an abject failure. It actually works well enough for hundreds of thousands of people who have jobs, work hard, and need a little help with groceries (food stamps), rent (Section 8 housing), or health care (CHIP).
I would rather if Americans were more like Asians and everyone’s extended family looked after their own problems. It would mean that we wouldn’t be spending a lot of time arguing about this stuff. Chinese are rotten caretakers of public spaces, but look after their parents and their children. Americans are good caretakers of public spaces but treat their relatives like dirt. This behavior, I am pleased to report, transcends liberal, conservative, red, blue, city and heartland. I am sorry to report that there is no government system known to Man that will make Americans behave like anything except the rugged, self-sufficent individuals they are. This is the downside of our austere Protestant ethic.
I am not sure where the rich Democrats who need ring-kissing are. I haven’t met any. If I did, I’m sure I would loathe them as much as you do.
It’s the same country VCRW, they’re the same problems. There’s just more than one way to solve them.
Wayne @ 109
My point on this,
I have no doubt in my mind that the driver knew that she was in front of him.
I also think that she came into that region with a higher value on life than the people in that region paid the price.
Dubysux: I would disagree with “What we are finding is that the right wingers never admit error or accept criticism, and if we do, it invites attack.” I have read a lot of criticism from other conservatives, for example, over the Schiavo matter, both in the actions and rhetoric coming from some some on the right (DeLay, Senator Cornyn), and even Goldy posted some comments recently from a rightie blog.
Keep in mind that when Newt said that in 1988, it was in response to years of the left villifying Reagan over a whole host of issues and on the heels of the Robert Bork nomination train wreck where the D’s introduced the ideological litmus test that we’re still dealing with.
Wow—
I could smell the BS when I opened this thread eminating from the LEFTIST crowd.
I would have weighed in earlier but it was Mrs. C’s day to weigh in. Happy to report that she lost 4 ounces the past week and now weighs in a at a measley 349-3/4 lbs. After her weekly back hair shearing, she drop another 12 ounces!! 349 even!
Hopefully, we will get her below 348 before year-end.
JSA @ 112
..again, beautifuly put!
jpgee-
You now claim to be 6’4″, 270 lbs. and a “real man”???
I’d believe it except that plaid dress, stockings and make-up kind of gives a different impression. Arnold wants you for his “Girlie-man” poster child.
jsa on beacon hill @ 113:
Good post! That’s why I like this blog, a (sometimes) good back and forth on the issues, and your post is an example of that.
pr @ 69
I’m very glad to hear you say you don’t want people to get hurt, because you had me worried last night. You need to understand that when you say things like you said last night, someone just might believe that you mean what you say. I suggest you rethink the means you chose to express your frustrations.
I respect your views expressed in paragraphs 3 & 4. Very well thought through, and very well stated.
I agree with your views on mob violence, vandalism, and property destruction but I don’t agree with your generalizations about protest demonstrations, which I find both inaccurate and overbroad. Let’s take WTO as an example. I was out of town, but my wife participated in the WTO demonstrations as a member of the AFL-CIO contingent through her local union. The AFL-CIO was a large group — several thousand people — and their presence was legal and peaceful. They had a parade permit, stayed on the designated parade route, and cooperated with the police. My wife was not arrested or tear gassed, and her group apparently did not get near the areas where problems occurred or crowd control measures were employed. So, from her eyewitness account, I didn’t learn much about the excesses that occurred. Most of what I know about that subject is what I got from watching TV coverage and reading newspaper accounts. My overall impression is that of the tens of thousands of participants, only a very small number broke the law, vandalized property, or resisted the police; and the overwhelming majority of the demonstrators did nothing more than what they went there for — to engage in peaceful expression of opinion.
It sounds like you want to ban all demonstrations and protests because they might result in inconvenience to merchants, motorists and pedestrians, and other non-participants. I simply can’t agree. Conflicting interests is the stuff of our daily lives. Sometimes it is necessary to tell people they can’t water their lawns because other people need drinking water. Street marches do cause inconvenience, but society’s interest in free expression and the right of assembly outweighs this inconvenience, just as drinking water is a higher priority than lawn waterning. When the APEC conference was held in downtown Seattle at the Westin Hotel, I was working just a couple blocks away from the Westin, and the president made his appearance at the Westin late on a rainy Friday afternoon. All traffic was blocked in the area, and bus service was interrupted for hours; I, and thousands of other hapless commuters, were left stranded on street corners. I finally got home from work at 10:30 p.m. that night, from what is normally a 20-minute bus commute. Needless to say I wasn’t happy, and I certainly felt the event planners did a shitty thing by scheduling the president’s travel through the downtown area at exactly the same time over 200,000 workers are leaving for their Friday evening commute — it was a goddam mess, there’s no other way to describe it — but I do understand the need for presidential security. You, in turn, need to understand and acknowledge the right of your fellow citizens to, on occasion, use the public streets their taxes paid for to express their opinions to elected officials on public matters that affect them. That is part of what public streets and sidewalks are for, they are not solely for carrying traffic or for facilitating pedestrian traffic into shops.
DamnageD @ 108
I’ve already said that my responses on the WTO riots yesterday were purposely adding fuel to the fire.
Were there innocents that were caught up in the WTO? Yes, however, having been down there myself and having seen all the uproar, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE could have been surprised by what happened. If anything, the innocent victims were people that came down to witness what was happening and got caught up in the mess.
The non-protest areas were set up and secured days before the start of the conference and you had to prove you had a resaon to be in that area in order to enter.
No hate here…
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=9606288.....burner.jpg
Or here…
http://arizona.indymedia.org/u.....qk6p2s.gif
Petshit @ 75
Rachel Corrie burned an American flag or spit on American soldiers? Source, please.
VCRW @ 76
Kosovo — without the loss of a single American life in combat.
On Rachel Corrie,
Truly sad, no question, but avoidable.
A major difference here in the China situation and hers.
She was an uninvited belligerent in a country that was not her own, sent to do a liberal proffesors bidding, who hid at Evergreen while their student was misled into thinking she could change the policy of another nation. They courted disaster and when they found it, blamed others. I feel for her parents and family, but it wasnt exactly a smart or effective move. As for being peaceful… Well, how is this for tolerance and peace…
http://arizona.indymedia.org/u.....qk6p2s.gif
The China incident was a person standing up for freedom in their own country, for a cause they had lived an entire life to bear fruit. Big difference here boys and girls, get your facts straight.
Goldy,
Hope you and some of the other folks on here get a chance to look at this link. Believe it or not, conservative Republicans can get deported to Russia also. Really — and literally:
http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/004169.html
(There are two other articles posted on Sound Politics, as well. I won’t post the actual links, due to the one link limit. But if you change 004169.html to 004090.html and 004099.html, you can look at them as well.)
This matter involves Yana Khrapko (and her mother), who happens to be a 20 year old college sophomore and a native of Russia. She has worked for the local Republican Radio show, as well as Rabbi Daniel Lapin’s radio show.
Yana’s family came here from Russia back in 1995 or so, applied for political asylum, and were rejected. They appealed this decision and lost. They were ordered to be deported, but stayed in the country anyway.
That would have ended the story and their legal rights. Except that Yana’s father, Sergei Khrapko (who was born in Belarus), was lucky enough to win a visa through the annual diversity lottery program. This allowed him to stay in the United States. It would have also allowed his family to stay here as well, but apparently Sergei neglected to timely apply for legal status for his wife and children when he won the diversity visa.
Now, after all these years, the INS is finally catching up on its paperwork and enforcing the old deportation order. Yana and her mother are locked up in federal custody, awaiting a flight to Moscow, Minsk or wherever. Ironically, Sergei has been here long enough that he was finally granted U.S. citizenship in March 2004 — even though he never applied for legal resident status for his wife and children.
This is really a tragic personal situation. But it is now a political issue for certain conservatives, and apparently some sort of political vendetta by the “liberals” at the INS. Many folks on Sound Politics feel that the INS ignores “brown” Mexican illegals, while cracking down hard on nice “white” people like the Khrapkos.
Naturally, this is all the fault of the leftist regime that is running our country these days. The current President really likes Mexican food and is fairly fluent in Spanish. To make matters worse, he has appointed Alberto Gonzales, the descendant of Mexican immigrants, to be Attorney General — who has the ultimate control over the INS and other immigrant enforcement and processing agencies.
And when someone like me points out that this snafu is not the fault of some evil liberal cabal and conspiracy, but simply the result of some unfortunate paperwork problems — I get called an evil liberal myself.
jsa @ 81
I couldn’t agree with you more. The right wingers have done far more to give Churchill an audience than he could ever have done by himself.
Dubyasux @ 120
I am not saying that all protests should be eliminated. What I am saying is that they have become an active, destructive, public theater in this city.
Over the course of the past few year (following WTO) I would really have a hard time counting the number of protests that have happened since that date.
It has become a problem with living downtown and I really do feel that the majority of the attendees are not there for political statement but rather for entertainment value.
Part of that entertainment is comprised of coming into this neighborhood with the intent to cause destruction. However, this is done under the guise of freedom of speech.
Would I like to see some of the culprits who come into our neighborhood and cause the problems on the news getting hit with a nightstick? Absolutely. I am tired of it and our police force is not able to do a damn thing.
WTO the police were accused of beating people, so the chief “resigned or retired” and a mew one took over.
As a response to what happened during WTO, the following February during Mardis Gras, the police set up a combat zone and said, go in there at your own risk and were accused of doing nothing.
What can they possibly do in this city to get approval for their actions?
Jon @ 84
There aren’t enough hours in a day, or days in a lifetime, and I won’t live long enough, to explain all the actions of left-wing nuts. Nor do I have any duty to explain. We’re not them — why is it so hard to get that simple fact through your thick skull?
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” –From Hamlet (III, ii, 239)
Liberals ARE Unpatriotic
http://www.therant.us/staff/da.....riotic.htm
Justin Darr
May 4, 2004
EXCERPTS:
“ No Republican has called the Democrats unpatriotic. Liberals may want to blame the Republicans for their public perception of Anti-Americanism, but the Democrats actually are having a problem with common sense. “
“ When listening to any Liberal, most intelligent adults readily understand that they just do not like America too much. In the Liberal mind, America has never done anything right, is doing nothing right, and most likely will do nothing right unless, of course, we end our foolish free thinking ways and join lock step in with the rest of the Euro-Leftists. Patriotism is normally defined as liking the country in which you live, supporting its values, and respecting its past. If Liberals hold all of these values in contempt and work endlessly to vilify and destroy them, then just how can they even pretend to call themselves patriots? “
“ The current Liberal propaganda campaign against being called unpatriotic is nothing more than a pathetic political ploy. Rather than dealing with the issue that the average American actually loves their country and resents Socialists constantly assaulting it, the Liberals have decided to try to make people afraid of talking about their flagrant anti-Americanism. By shouting, screaming, and declaring their “outrage”, the Liberals are trying to make citizens feel that we are being “insensitive” when we see America’s Leftists for what they are. How typical of Liberals, their response to accusations of anti-Americanism is to stifle freedom of speech. We are just not allowed to talk about that, even if we happen to be right, because we might hurt the Leftists’ feelings. Actually, the Liberals fear than an open debate on the issue of their patriotism would expose their agenda for what it is. After that, no sane American would vote for them. “
“ America is stuck in a dysfunctional relationship with its Liberal establishment. Like a drunk at the trailer court who does nothing but insult and abuse his wife, Liberals are trying to make America afraid to abandon them. Just like the drunk, the Liberals claim that they love America. But, if this is what they call love, we do not need it. The Democrats are screaming about being patriotic just because they are not, and they do not want anyone to acknowledge it. To do so would end any chance of gaining the coveted strangle hold on power that they so desperately crave. “
VCRW @ 86
“Well if that is what you do to the other side isn’t it fair to do that to you?”
You’re a total dipshit. Your side started the shit-throwing, and now you’re bitching about getting some back?!
you’re not an evil liberal, pope–just a bigot.
prr @ 88
“Was it a dumb act that only she can be held accountable for: yes. That was her choice.”
That would not be the case if the dozer driver knew she was there and made a deliberate decision to run over her.
angry @ 126
uninvited belligerent? And what’s non-peaceful about the picture? She’s in the middle of a crowd of kids. In any case, none of that justifies her murder. The bulldozer had no legal right to be there in the first place.
Isn’t standing up for the freedoms of others a far more noble sacrifice than standing up for your own? “What you do to the least of mine…”
Angry voter @ 126
I could not agree with you more.
This was an impressionable kid who was manipulated.
prr @ 93
That’s simply false, a right-wing myth. If you shoot an intruder in your home, you will not be prosecuted in Washington state. There are numerous real-life examples to back that up.
Dubyasux @ 133
Maybe under US law/values.
However, sending a girl/woman into an area where ( and I don’t think anyone can argue this) women are looked at as less than human and then having her perform this type of actvism, she had to be aware of the risks.
As cold hearted as this is, this was just a dumb move
prr @ 97
Rightys frequently remind us — correctly — that appeasing tyranny is stupid and dangerous.
What you are saying is standing up to tyranny is stupid and dangerous. Dangerous, I agree. But stupid?
You can’t have it both ways. Which is it?
Dubyasux @ 138
Oh no, it was stupid.
Holding the bulldozer driver at gunpoint would have been dangerous, but at least should would have stood a chance.
prr @ 137
if they’re looked at as less than human, why do they have an 86% literacy rate, participate in all levels of politics, and are called “heroines” for participating in the intifada?
We’re not them – why is it so hard to get that simple fact through your thick skull? -Comment by Dubyasux— 4/13/05 @ 12:31 pm
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” –From Hamlet (III, ii, 239)
Liberals ARE Unpatriotic
http://www.therant.us/staff/da.....riotic.htm
Justin Darr
May 4, 2004
EXCERPTS:
“ No Republican has called the Democrats unpatriotic. They have questioned the Liberals dedication to national defense, their commitment to the War on Terror, and the motivations for their Soci*list policies, but not their patriotism. Liberals may want to blame the Republicans for their public perception of Anti-Americanism, but the Democrats actually are having a problem with common sense. “
“ When listening to any Liberal, most intelligent adults readily understand that they just do not like America too much. In the Liberal mind, America has never done anything right, is doing nothing right, and most likely will do nothing right unless, of course, we end our foolish free thinking ways and join lock step in with the rest of the Euro-Leftists. Patriotism is normally defined as liking the country in which you live, supporting its values, and respecting its past. If Liberals hold all of these values in contempt and work endlessly to vilify and destroy them, then just how can they even pretend to call themselves patriots? “
“ The current Liberal propaganda campaign against being called unpatriotic is nothing more than a pathetic political ploy. Rather than dealing with the issue that the average American actually loves their country and resents Soci*lists constantly assaulting it, the Liberals have decided to try to make people afraid of talking about their flagrant anti-Americanism. “
“ America is stuck in a dysfunctional relationship with its Liberal establishment. Like a drunk at the trailer court who does nothing but insult and abuse his wife, Liberals are trying to make America afraid to abandon them. Just like the drunk, the Liberals claim that they love America. But, if this is what they call love, we do not need it. The Democrats are screaming about being patriotic just because they are not, and they do not want anyone to acknowledge it. To do so would end any chance of gaining the coveted strangle hold on power that they so desperately crave. “
PET @ 141
What was the point of that? To show how easy it is to claim things to be true, without any evidence whatsoever?
More PetShit. Reads like warmed over Limbaugh. Great name by the way…
prr @ 98
I’m a lawyer, and here is what I will tell you. The law of self-defense in Washington is that you may use deadly force if, and only if, it is necessary to protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm.
Technically, it is not lawful self-defense to shoot an intruder simply for being in your home. Technically, the conditions for lawful self-defense do not exist, even inside your home, unless the intruder is armed and takes action that evinces an intent to inflict death or grave bodily harm, such as pointing a gun at you or lunging at you with a knife. About 20 years ago, prosecutors quit charging homeowners who killed intruders under conditions that did not satisfy these strict legal criteria, because juries uniformly refused to return guilty verdicts and it proved to be an utter waste of public resources to take these cases to trial. A specific example is a case that occurred in my neighborhood several years ago. A single male in his 40s who came home from work at mid-afternoon found three teenagers (ranging in age from 15 to 19) inside his home robbing the place. They were not armed, and did not attack him, but rather fled out the back door. The 15-year-old was slower than the rest, and was the last one to climb over the backyard fence, and took a bullet in the back from which he died. That homeowner was not charged or prosecuted even though he fatally shot a fleeing, unarmed juvenile in the back who was no longer even on his property. That is as clear a case of unjustifiable homicide as you can get, but a frustrated King County prosecutor Norm Maleng — after thinking about it — let the guy off with a public chewing out because he realizes he can’t get convictions in cases like that. The general public is fed up with crime, and particularly with home invasions, and Maleng was forced to bow to the vigilante mood of any jury likely to be empaneled in the case. Another factor is that if a murder defendant is acquitted on grounds of self-defense, state law requires the county to pay the defendant’s legal defense costs. This can get very expensive, and is a major deterrent to prosecuting such cases.
Washington has never formally enacted a Delaware law, i.e. a statute expressly authorizing lethal force against home intruders. However, we have a de facto Delaware law in the sense that you will not, as a practical matter, be prosecuted for killing a home intruder. The old wives’ tale about making sure the cops find the body inside the door is just that — an old wives’ tale — as my example above illustrates.
prr @ 103
If he saw you, and deliberately hit you, or didn’t swerve because he didn’t care, yes he murdered you. The fact you contributed to the situation with your stupidity does not make him innocent.
Jon @ 104
I agree with Michelle Malkin’s opinion of this “lunatic merchandise” but who is she referring to by “the libs”? Not me, nor anyone I know. Her diatribe appears to be yet another right-wing attempt to pick out some word or action of a nutcase and then broad-brush all liberals with it. Which is propaganda, or less politely, lying. Very odious lying. So, Michelle Malkin, I get the point you’re trying to make — and my response is, fuck you, you lying bitch.
You’re all posting on this thread faster than I can keep up, and I have other things to do, so I’m leaving now. I’m up to #104. Later.
This thread has struck a chord, but it seems it is not very harmonious.
Just noting an underlying theme here:
The penchant to paint the other party into the extreme opposite side is a time-honored tradition. I doubt the majority of left or right thinkers hold much with the idea of tearing down the country they reside in. The problem as I see it is one of mistrust, and it has already resulted in the likes of McVeigh and Kaczynski. I use those two to illustrate that the extremes can lead to violence, and while neither figure can accurately be portrayed as R or D, they held spectrum opposites in terms of ideological thought.
Before anybody starts arguing body count between these wackos, remember that they killed Americans as a way to send their twisted messages.
Okay, play ball…
marks @ 147
how about the terrorist Eric Rudolph? He bombed abortion clinics and gay bars. Would you say his ideology is conservative in nature?
prr @ 129:
What can they possibly do in this city to get approval for their actions?
A good question, without an easy answer.
What happened at WTO? Too many protestors, over too big an area, a light police presence, and finally an ultimatum, allegedly delivered to Schell from a Clinton cabinet official, that if he was unable to establish control in his city, the President would not attend the ministerial.
The result was that not enough police had to express enough force to “establish control”. This is pretty much a recipe for disaster.
I’ve had the pleasure of observing protests overseas, in Taiwan and Korea. (I was just there doing my job. I don’t need to go overseas and raise hell in somebody else’s country). The method in both of those places is similar. Lots and lots and lots of police. In Taiwan, there is a special division of the Federal Police Force that has one job, and one job only, and that is to manage protestors. I assume Korea’s police are structured the same way, but I never asked. I always find at these after-work dinners with employees and managers of the customer, it’s better to stay on topics like baseball, pop stars, drinking, life in the US, life in Taiwan, stuff like that. Asking how they manage their protestors usually goes over about as well as asking to borrow the coffee girl for a night of unfettered sodomy.
Anyhow, back to the police. They form a human chain, armed with sticks and shields. Stay on that side of the line, and nobody gets hurt. Cross the line and much tear gas and water cannons are let free. Did I mention there are a lot of them? There’s generally no need to get out of hand. The police have a substantial numeric and tactical advantage. That and the lack of a strongly enforced Bill of Rights seems to help.
Anyone who thinks that crossing the police line will result in anything but arrest and a good dousing with water isn’t much of a protestor.
The problem Seattle has is that we don’t have a federal police force. Mayor Nickels can’t call for reinforcements to be flown in from Boise, Portland, or San Francisco if he needs more bodies on the street. We have the police we have, and they tend to be real busy doing day-to-day work without a few hundred being pulled off the streets to do protest management.
I am not saying we need a federal police force by the way. This is a limitation of law enforcement we have to live with.
Likewise, I am not sure how much protest management training the officers receive. I suspect it’s not much.
Not enough police, badly trained police, too many protestors. What could possibly go wrong?
TJ, PetSh*t is just being a ditto-head. Stupid is as stupid does.
hey Goldy,
is this part of the new training for the liberal democrats promoted to the PROGRESSIVE MAJORITY?
“Liberals do not, DO NOT, NOT hate America. Fuck you if you think that. Fuck you if you think we should all be deported to Russia, or France, or even Canada. Nothing against Canada, or, hey, even France or Russia, but this is my home, just like it’s the home of millions and millions of other progressives who are not traitors, who aren’t America-haters.
So stop saying it. And fuck you if you do, fuckers”
(Okay, maybe I wouldn’t mind turning (insert any name here) gay… that’d be kind of funny.)
if this is what they call love, we do not need it!
UM…I can’t see many suburb votes in your favor if thats going to be the new ideology. Sorry dude, just thought you should know. good luck to you tho!
tj @148
I would call it what it is, wacko, before I would label it conservative. By definition, this individual (and others like him) is somehow staking a claim on the moral high ground because he is trying to save the lives of the unborn by killing the living. Abortion is legal in this country. I am against abortion for a number of reasons, but I am not about to kill over it.
can’t see the media rushing to those campaign events either. Nope, I’m sure of it. That is the wrong message. for now!!
what would help tho is if you sold this first with the OSPI so we could indoctrinate our youth. maybe combine this in the new sex ed classes, the kids could chant these words while they put condoms on cucumbers. Then maybe in a few years your message would be widely excepted. I am pretty sure the WEA and Rosemary McAuliffe and Shay Screwel Berke would love to author that into legislation.
oops, accepted. sorry don, please dont get mad.
Dubyasux:
Whoa! I never implied you were in the same league with the wingnuts, but if I gave that impression, my apologies.
What I was trying to say that, using a personal example, as a Christian, I need to call to account and not to even try to justify the murderers of abortion doctors who are killing in the name of God. Another one would be Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell explaining 9/11 as “deserved” because of the “sin” of the U.S. That said, if I identify myself as a “conservative Christian”, I’m usually grouped in with those folks.
What I don’t understand is the lack of dissension on the part of the left, especially in the last year or so. You say the right will jump all over dissent. Sure they will, but if somebody claiming to “represent” you or identifying themselves the same way you do does or says something absolutely wrong, then have the guts to say so. Again, why don’t Democrats learn from Bill Clinton? He had the guts to stand up in 1992 and tell Sista Souja she was full of it, and it helped both him and the party. Who, and if you can show me, I will gladly agree, with apologies, among prominent D’s are calling BS to any of the way out garbage that is coming from the SMALL number of extremist on the left? I’m sorry, and again, if they have, my apologies, but where are the Deans, Kerrys, Kennedys, Pelosis? Hillary Clinton, to her credit, is at least saying the abortion debate needs to come back to the center.
Again, I’m not calling you a wingnut; I’m asking why the big guns in the Democratic party can’t have the courage to stand up and say enough. You believe you are in the morally superior party; your party leaders need to demonstrate that.
marks @ 152
if you got the impression that I was saying bombing abortion clinics and gay bars is a “conservative position,” that’s not what I meant. I meant being pro-life and anti-gay rights. Apologies for any confusion.
tj @156
No, I understood. I just have trouble with any nut who uses convoluted logic to justify terror/murder. His political ideology is no longer valid when using violence.
Dubya@132,
Wow. I would expect some better language from somone with a law degree. I guess they are handing those out like candy nowadays.
Is that how you argue all your cases – with fecal references?
Mr Cynical @ 6
this is the second thread you have used the term cocksucker. I am offended!!! Please, from now on use the term cornhole criminal.
Char–
OOOPS! I got carried away and forgot we do have one lady in our midst.
My deepest apologies.
So jpgee, you little cocksucker errrrrr….I mean cornhole criminal…do you sit on a soft cushy pillow after your big night of drinking with the boyz?
Mr Cyn @ 162. thank you, that is much better. I just have a problem with that term. it’s just so hostile. there is another popular phrase, not sure what the fellas here prefer but bunghole bandit is a second option. you know, just want to throw that out there. you might want to run it by these fellas here.
hey, a new poll question. what term do you prefer?
why do so many homophobes seem so fascinated by descriptions of homosexual activity? I’m no psychiatrist, but there appears to be a lot of latency going on here…
Don’t worry jpgee we’ll all help you fend off this sexual psychopath and his excretory, gay-bondage and cross-dressing fetishes. To top it off he’s a BIAW-employed gangster.
Is there any line this guy won’t cross?
Hey Cynical, maybe you should write a letter about your “problems” to Dan Savage at the Stranger. I’m sure he’ll find your case interesting for the next “Savage Love” column – after he gets through editing Sharkansky’s bullshit column that is.
Jon @ 157
Where did you get the idea that Ward Churchill and Sister Souljah are sanctioned representatives of the Democratic Party? Maybe people like Glenn Reynolds or Rush Limbaugh told you this?
You can’t see the forrest for the trees on this one. Entertainers do “edgy” things to push people’s buttons, get noticed and sell records or whatever. It doesn’t mean they are those things. If Sister S. says she can’t stand Bush Sr. – that’s her right.
These people you wingers dig up to beat us liberals over the head with are for most part insignificant until you succeed in getting the MSM to focus on them.
We on the left had a good chortle when the Mel Martinez memo blew up in your faces. Unfortunately, no one’s going to remember it a month from now.
I’m sorry no leader worth his salt is going to play by your script. We’re not going to let you define us.
tj–
Homophobes???
jpgee is the only homophobe here.
You are totally wrong…and you have no sense of humor.
Typical LEFTIST…throw yourself on the floor and act offended.
This crowd excels in acting offended…except for Don who is too stoned to even know he is being offended.
John @ 167:
First, I didn’t say either one of them were “sanctioned representatives”.
Please go look up what Bill Clinton did in 1992 and how that help him and the party, then try to tell me that it isn’t relevant before you comment. The issue didn’t really involve George HW.
A quote from the Democracy Guy blog: “Someone in the Democratic Party needs to stand up, and like Hillary’s husband once did, give a Sista Soulja speech to Democrats. You remember that speech. Bill Clinton, in front of a black audience in 1992, called out rap artist Sista Soulja for using explicit and demeaning lyrics in her music. Vintage Clinton, the speech somehow accomplished two seemingly opposing goals. It made clear that Clinton was no old time liberal softy, while at the same time solidified his hold on his African American base.”
Fast forward to 2004: Michael Moore, on the heels of his self-titled “opinion piece not a documentary”, which even favorable critics call propaganda, equates the terrorist insurgency in Iraq with the Founding Fathers, and states we are going to lose. Instead of calling him out on such a statement, he is feted by Democrats, and given a place of honor next to President Carter at the DNC. Now, please, can you at least recognize that good, resonable, responsible, middle of the road people were completely turned off John Kerry in part of a such an action? Please, don’t try to say Michael Moore was embraced by party leaders.
“These people you wingers dig up to beat us liberals over the head with are for most part insignificant until you succeed in getting the MSM to focus on them.” Oh yes, Moore would of been completely ignored if “we wingers” said nothing, given all the publicity Moore bought and received. Give me a break!
“We on the left had a good chortle when the Mel Martinez memo blew up in your faces. Unfortunately, no one’s going to remember it a month from now.” Yes, and no one would have even know about it period if the Washington Post had accurately reported about it in the first place instead of stating as fact that it was produced by party leadership and distributed to all the Republicans, which was a lie, and I still haven’t seen a retraction. At least the “winger” blogs have owned up to authorship. Oh, and I’m still waiting for retractions/apologies on the CBS Bush TANG memos. Oh, yes, “fake but accurate”. Now who can’t see the forest for the trees?
Sorry for the bad grammar, my blood was up.
Dubyasux @ 45 how true. The Texas Taco used Osama as a springboard to get his war machine going and try to ‘vindicate’ the family embarassment gained by his daddy. Like rubsfield today, in Afghanistan….the Afghani’s want US to create permanent militart instalations to help them in their pursuit of permanent peace….but rubsfield stated the US has no thoughts on that issue. (Could it be that Afghanistan doesn’t have enough natural resources for us to hijack? But at the same time we can ‘force’ the world’s largest embassy and 12 new gigantic US Military Bases on the Iraqi’s who want the US out of ‘their’ country immediately?) What a great group of ‘power groupies’ we have running our beloved country.
Hey Chardonnay @153…
Am I a Democratic candidate? Am I an official spokesperson for the Democratic party? Last time I checked, I was just some guy with strong opinions and a loud voice.
My question for all you (dare I say it?) trolls is… if my blog is so worthless and insignificant… if I’m so misguided and counterproductive… then why the fuck do you spend so much time here trying to refute me? If this forum is so harmless, why put the effort into trying to disrupt the threads in a desperate effort to destroy a useful dialectic, huh? What are you all so afraid of?
Useful dialectic??
What I’m trying to do is help ya Goldy…help ya take a mind-numbing bunch of garbage from your little pinheaded LEFTIST pals and set you straight. Understand??
We don’t have to “refute” you. 9 times out of 10 you end up refuting yourself saving us the trouble.
Your Blog is harmless because you fail to research and produce any hard evidence of your own.
Why does a cat bat a mouse around for so long and sometimes eat it and other times let it go?
Why does a hounddog lick his balls?
ANSWER: Cuz he can!
Sure they will, but if somebody claiming to “represent” you or identifying themselves the same way you do does or says something absolutely wrong, then have the guts to say so.
Those are your words. Are you implying that someone like Ward Churchill is the face of the Democratic Party like Glenn Reynolds said? That we should run to nearest pulpit and do what you tell us to do like trained monkeys? Sorry no can do. That’s not good politics. When you guys dig up someone like him out of obscurity and jump up and down and order us around we’re going to do our best to dampen or wait out the noise. I never heard of the guy until Reynolds started writing about him.
A lot of us Democrats like Michael Moore. We know he fudges his arguments and maybe even the facts and even makes a wild assertion or two but he’s been damn successful. He drives the opposition nuts. He tells a good tale on the screen, one with sound and fury and a few laughs thrown in. Many Americans like that. Even some conservatives acknowledge his success. And guess what he’s completely in keeping with a time-honored tradition of American politics. Ever hear of the “scurrilous pamphleteer”? That kind of person appears throughout American history. That’s what Michael Moore is. You have plenty like him on your side and they can’t hold a candle to him. That fuels your anger more than anything. And people on the left have a lock on propaganda? Puhhleeze..
Michael Moore says he’s not a Democrat and has plenty of bad things to say about Democrats. The Carter’s inviting him to sit in their booth was giving him “a place of honor”? Nonsense. If his sitting in that booth turned off a few swing voters, they should get out more.
A bad story in the Washington Post doesn’t excuse Powerline and Co. from a tiresome try at a repeat of the glory days of the TANG memos.
Rather’s retirement and the producers getting fired is apparently not enough for you. You want us to grovel some more. Again, sorry no can do. I’m sure you wouldn’t be so crazy to do the same kind of thing for our sake.
And by way Bush’s service in the TANG was not particularly honorable. His lost year was not honorable. His failure to show up for physicals was not honorable. His hard-drinking lifestyle carried on under the protective wing of TANG service while soldiers were fighting and dying in Vietnam was not honorable. Kerry putting his life on the line in the Mekong Delta was definitely more honorable and then being true to his convictions and opposing the war the way he did was more honorable. Perhaps not popular but in my book way more honorable.
TJ @ 106
Clinton had only 28 days left in office when the Cole was bombed, so it was a given this would be handed off to the incoming Gee-Dub administration. A fact the rightys conveniently overlook. Here’s what Clinton adviser Sidney Blumenthal says happened next:
“Bush’s approach in most situations seemed a reactive combination of calculations to avoid his father’s mistakes and to reject Clinton’s policies. This was especially clear in international affairs: in his first nine months he reversed Clinton’s policy toward China, proclaiming it no longer a ‘strategic partner’ but a ‘strategic competitor’; in the Middle East, by withdrawing U.S. involvement in the negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians; toward Korea, by abandoning the negotiated accord that had frozen the North’s nuclear program and by humiliating President Kim of South Korea, who was promoting North-South reconciliation, during his March 2001 visit to the White House, contributing to a wave of anti-Americanism in a country that was among the staunchest American allies; by withdrawing U.S. support from the Kyoto treaty on global warming; and by forsaking Clinton’s efforts to address the dangers of international terrorism.
“During the transition between administrations, National Security Adviser Sandy Berger arranged several extensive briefings on this last subject for Bush’s incoming national security adviser, Condoleeza Rice, and others on the Bush team, including Vice President Cheney. One briefing lasted half a day. Berger told them that Osama bin Laden was an ‘existential threat’ and told them that he wanted ‘to underscore how important this issue is.’ In another briefing, Richard Clarke, head of counterrorism in the NSC, the single most knowledgeable expert in the government, gave them a complete tutorial on the subject. In yet another briefing, CIA officials were brought in to go over all the intelligence available on terrorism.
“Don Kerrick, a three-star general and outgoing deputy national security adviser, overlapped for four months with the new Bush people. He submitted a memo for the new National Security Council warning of the danger of terrorism. ‘We are going to be struck again,’ he wrote. But as Kerrick explained to me, he received no answer to his memo. ‘They didn’t respond,’ he said. ‘They never responded. It was not high on their priority list. I was never invited to one meeting. They never asked me to do anything. They were not focusing. They didn’t see terrorism as the big megaissue that the Clinton administration saw it as. They were concentrated on what they thought were higher priorities than terrorism.’ The Principals meeting of national security officials took up terrorism only once, after constant pressure from Clarke, on September 4, 2001, and at that meeting they discussed using unmanned Predator drone spy aircraft, but no decision was made. ‘Unfortunately,’ said Kerrick, ‘September 11 gave them something to focus on.’”
— Sidney Blumenthal, The Clinton Wars (New York: Farrar, Strauss, and Giroux, 2003), pp. 797-798.
Jon @ 115
Yes, I know there was a context for Newt’s 1988 remarks, but the problem is the words say what they say. Just like what prr said on this thread last night — today on a different thread he claims he didn’t really mean it, but the fact remains he talked about “beating” liberals and “shooting” protesters. Just like what Ann Coulter says; you and I may assume she doesn’t really believe Democrats should be “executed” — but the problem is, her words say what they say, and someone in the hinterlands may take the words to heart and act on them.
In any case, it’s not at all clear that Newt didn’t mean what he said, or that his fellows Republicans didn’t interpret his words literally, when you look at how they’ve behaved since 1988. They do act as though they believe politics is “civil war” to be waged with “savagery.” This has divided and polarized the country. Even worse, the rhetoric of hate and violence, if repeated enough, could take us down the slippery slope to actual hate and violence. America today resembles in many ways the America of the 1850s. We don’t really know how close we are to that slippery slope, or where the point of no return is, but we do know from the lessons of the past that rhetoric of hate and division is very hard to put back into the toothpaste tube and can lead to passions and divisions that are very, very dangerous for society.
jsa @ 120
“I don’t love the civilians who are giving orders to the troops now, and would like to see them in jail.”
I would settle for them being out of office.
Richard @ 127
There are literally thousands more similar tragedies, but we didn’t hear a peep from the Republicans until a Republican got arrested. See, e.g., http://www.why-war.com/news/read.php?id=2624
prr @ 129
I can’t recall a single demonstration since WTO that turned violent or destructive. And it’s not like we have protests or demonstrations in downtown Seattle very frequently. The police can’t guarantee there won’t be violence or property destruction any time a large group of people get together, any more than they can guarantee there won’t be crime. The main role of the police, generally speaking, is to react to situations after they have already occurred. There are some proactive things the police can do in advance of a demonstration or crowd celebration that they failed to do in WTO. Standing aside while people got hurt at Mardi Gras was simply a bum call, motivated no doubt by criticism of police handling of WTO. It’s not an easy job but what we need is a mayor and police chief with cool heads and clear judgment.
Dubyasux @ 111 VCRW (VeryControlledRepugWingnut just spouts the talking points of the day (or last week if he can’t keep up with them), you should take it easy on him as he is a True Lemming, no values of his own, just ‘group gossip’
goldy @ 172
It’s obvious what they’re afraid of…US. Free’er thinging, open minded, ask-questions-before-ya-shoot kind of folks. Lord forbid the world (much less America) be filled by reckless individuals like us!
Petshit @ 142
“Liberals ARE Unpatriotic”
http://www.therant.us/staff/da.....riotic.htm
Justin Darr
May 4, 2004
“ … No Republican has called the Democrats unpatriotic. …”
Well let’s see if we can find any Republicans who have called Democrats unpatriotic. Here’s one:
“Liberals ARE Unpatriotic”
http://www.therant.us/staff/da.....riotic.htm
Justin Darr
May 4, 2004
Here’s another one:
“BREAKING: WATER WET; FIRE HOT; MANY DEMOCRATS UNPATRIOTIC
“As I’ve written before, it’s ludicrous that the Left has managed to convince many in this country — including many on the Right — that questioning their patriotism is out of bounds.”
http://www.thespoonsexperience....._water.php
And another:
To The Democrats in Congress:
“There you go again you dirty unpatriotic democrats.”
http://gogov.com/bettysmailbox082202.htm
And another:
“No more coddling disloyal Democrats
by Daniel Clark”
http://shinbone.home.att.net/wahw.htm
And, of course, ann coulter:
“John Hawkins: Could you give us two or three examples of people on the left who acted unpatriotically during the Iraqi war (or the build up to it) and tell us what they did that was unpatriotic?
“Ann Coulter: Better yet, for a complete list just go to the D.N.C. Website … ”
http://rightwingnews.com/interviews/anncoulter.php
Oh what’s the use. Does shit stink? The number of examples you can find on the internet of Repubicans calling Democrats “unpatriotic” is in the thousands if not millions.
But why not deny calling Democrats unpatriotic when you lie about everything else too?
Goldy @ 172
Ok read the first sentence in post 153. Implying training camp/farm as mentioned in “Progressive Majority Gets Local” get the connection? You want to recruit would be candidates and send them to a farm/camp and teach them what?
How to chant “Liberals do not, DO NOT, NOT hate America. Fuck you if you think that.”
Is that part of the curriculum?
How did you read anything in post # 153 that implied you were running for office?
FYI, I would assume that we all like to spend so much time here because you all are so damn funny.
ok, slow down a minute and re-read Mr Cynicals posts, they are hilarious. His tone is sarcastic and humorous yet it pisses off your buddies. Their return posts to Mr C are typically very pissy. Which to me and others is comical. This is a good show Goldy.
chard @ 153
You are a person who is obviously badly in need of a good fucking and Goldy is just trying to help out.
brain damaged
A dim bulb that thinks he’s bright, free thinkers.
Jon @ 157
Like many Democrats, I feel our party needs a backbone transplant.
Does that do it for you? That should cover just about everyone and everything Democrat.
no thanks Don. why do I have to keep telling you that I think consevative men are much more attractive?
VCRW @ 160
This isn’t court. You’re a right winger who has chosen to enter a liberal blog to attack liberals. Enter at your own risk.
chard @ 161
Never heard that one before. I like it. You’re useful for something after all.
MISTER Cynical @ 162
That’s no lady, that’s White Whine … errr, Chardonnay.
Cynicaletc. @ 166
I wish he’d write a letter to The Stranger or whomever explaining how his washing machine works. I want to know what’s inside that thing. It’s inexplicable how $100 bills go into its rollers as L & I taxes for injured workers and come out the other side as Rossi slush funds simply by turning a crank.
Cynical @ 168
I suspect I’m being insulted, but I’m not sure.
Are you referring to “stoned” in the Biblical sense or Woodstock sense?
don @ 188
are you confessing?
Don–
I was thinking “stoned” in the masonry sense.
jpg @ 171
Funny you should mention Afghanistan, because I was thinking about Afganistan just yesterday. I haven’t heard from Jerky Creepy Hater for a while but if he was here I would ask him if he made his pile by selling Afghani wheat futures to widows and orphans.
Goldy @ 172
For the same reason they pull butterflies’ wings off — they enjoy it.
jpg @ 180
I know, but it’s fun to play with him, kind of like bouncing a paddle ball on a string.
chard @ 182
Too bad you’re not part of the show. You’re the most unfunny person here. “Cornhole criminals” is the only funny thing you’ve ever said. Well, at least that one is better than the total void you usually feed us.
chards @ 186
Well then find yourself an attractive conservative man and get fucked, so you won’t be such a bitchy bore. Or is it boring bitch? I think maybe the first one is right.
chardonnay @ 192
No, I’m not gay. I thought you knew all about that stuff, in that you hate men and all.
I had sex with a Republican girl once, though, which I guess you could consider bestiality.
Cynical @ 193
Thrown, or dropped off a rooftop like those manhole covers?
Yeah, I think the Republican girl’s Bible study group probably WOULD have stoned me, if they had found out about that bestiality business.
Whew! Finally got to the end of this thread. These wingnuts have too much time on their ends. They need to get a job or something. Especially Mr. Cynical.
Are ya all done there don? wow, what an effort huh? talk about unfunny, do we have to hear the ringer washer babble in every thread?
just like I said in 182 your responses sure are angry and hostile. why do the liberals get so pissy? are they born that way? LOL
here we are trying to have a good time at your expense and you take it the wrong way.
C’mon, don’t start posting shit again, it took me all night to get through this thread. Mercy!
And the backbone transplant is “Hillllllary”! THEE Walkin the walk, Talkin the Talk Hilllllllary. THEE new “Born again Christian War Mongerin Conservative Hillllllary!
Modeled right after Jane Fonda’s lost myself but now “I Found Myself in time to make a killin $$$$” (sellin my book and givin my confession)” Damn Life is good!
Well, there’s a new (Bill is already bashing him on TV tonight) 15 million dollar Gay Republican fundraiser after Hilllllllary’s ass!
Many many more to follow I am sure!
We don’t tie winning combinations of money (like all the money that a George S of moveon.org is willing to donate) to a complete loser spokesman like Michael Moore. The only thing that produced was a consolation prize, Christine (No new Taxes and I’m here to save the State through BS regulatin liberalism) Gregoire.
So if ya really want to provide a backbone transplant, you got’s ta start teachin mo walkin the walk, less taxin the shit, mo talkin the talk, Less Regulatin the shit, Mo Kickin terrorist ass, Less contemplating, More Business sense, less CAO confiscatin, more Good Finacial trainin, Less Good Home trainin, and finally Mo accurate election voting, less Hand count playin
So No more warmeeeed over Liberal BullllllShit!
No more warmeeeed over Liberal BullllllShit
“Liberals DO NOT, NOT hate America”
Double negative… so they do hate America? Or is that Amerika?
Don, you have to remember that chardonnay (stalevinegar0 has literally drunk herself blind. She would not know the difference between a conservative, liberal or mickey mouse.
Don @ 204 says WE have too much time on our hands.
Yet he is the record holder for posts on a thread AND consistently the most active poster. I know you are retired on your well unearned guv’mint pension and make your wife still work Don but get real.
I enjoy your blather…NOT. I rarely read what you say.
Don is trying for the posters Hall of Shame!
jp @ 209
that was really mean, now you stop that!!
actually, I think it’s funny that you & don think you are effective. your posts only show your lack of ‘TolerancE’ and expose you for what you really are.
when are you going to get it, I am laughing at you.
this is your progressive liberal,
“We DO NOT want to turn you gay, or wipe out your religion, or make you have an abortion.
So stop saying it. And fuck you if you do, fuckers.”
who is this genius? I think he would be an awesome king county executive.
John @ 174:“A lot of us Democrats like Michael Moore. We know he fudges his arguments and maybe even the facts and even makes a wild assertion or two but he’s been damn successful.”
Define ‘damn successful’. Making money, definetly! Booting W from the White House, which was his goal of ‘F911’? Not so much. There is a lot of commentary out there from good & smart D’s that make the argument that MM cost Kerry the election. But then, I guess, making W look bad is more important than being or doing right, or winning elections, or trying to fix our problems, or anything else.
“The Carter’s inviting him to sit in their booth was giving him “a place of honor”? Nonsense. If his sitting in that booth turned off a few swing voters, they should get out more.”
Short of speaking, define “place of honor” then in your book. Also, Considering Kerry lost this election by some thin, thin margins, why would you want to turn off any swing voters?
“A bad story in the Washington Post doesn’t excuse Powerline and Co. from a tiresome try at a repeat of the glory days of the TANG memos.”
A bad story? If the Post had done its reporting, the Schiavo memo probably wouldn’t have made the paper! Powerline at least couched its OPINION that it was produced by the D’s with “this sounds like” “we think” etc. Again, the Post wrote its story as FACT. That’s a huge difference, don’t you think?
Lastly, I could of cared less about the war records of either candidate. If was ‘wrong’ to bring make it an issue with Bill Clinton in 1992, then it’s wrong for everyone else.
Your post reeked of ‘two wrongs make a right’. Well, they don’t, and if it costs D’s elections, maybe its time to look at what you’re doing, huh?
Dubyasux @ 186: “Like many Democrats, I feel our party needs a backbone transplant. Does that do it for you? That should cover just about everyone and everything Democrat.”
I would agree. I define backbone of either party standing up to the extreme wings and telling them to knock it off. I think Hillary is showing some and will show more before 2008.
gs @ 208
“We don’t tie winning combinations of money (like all the money that a George S of moveon.org is willing to donate) to a complete loser spokesman like Michael Moore.”
No, you tie it to a complete loser spokesman like Tom DeLay.
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
jpgee @ 209
I doubt she knows the difference between male or female, either — or which she is.
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
Cynical @ 210
“Don @ 204 says WE have too much time on our hands. … I rarely read what you say.”
Then how do you know what I say? By osmosis?
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
chards @ 212
“I think he would be an awesome king county executive.”
I do, too! Gotta hand it to ya, chards, your pea brain actually does come up with a decent idea now and then.
Jon @ 214
I define “backbone” as standing up to GOP bullies and saying they’re full of shit.
Ooops, I left my tag line off that last post:
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
Jon @ 213
Again my central point (it seems to be lost on you) – We’re not going to let you define us. You may think that’s “arrogant” – well it’s arrogant for you to order us around. We’re just going to shake our heads in private when you paint Ward Churchill as the face of the Democratic Party.
I’ll define successful. Say Moore’s name – many, many people know who he his. Shine a camera at him (even in a former President’s booth at a convention) and people recognize him. Many virulent, venom-spitting right-wing propagandists can’t touch that. I’m sure they showed up in the booths of prominent Republicans at their convention and no-one knew who they were.
Another thing you forget – I condemn propaganda but I recognize any American’s right to produce it on the left and the right. You wingers can produce it all you want but I’ll fight you tooth and nail from it being aired on the public airwaves like that moonie tried to do on the Sinclair network during a close election.
Being right and doing right. I shake my head. There will be plenty of opportunites for that – on our terms not yours.
Why shouldn’t you care about war records? Kerry knows something Bush has never known – what it is like to be shot at – minute by minute, hour after hour, day after day. I think that’s a pretty good bullet point on the resume for a commander-in-chief. It tells me maybe he’ll think at least twice before squandering lives, limbs and treasure in a foreign adventure.
As for Clinton, his Sister S. remarks didn’t put him over the top – Ross Perot did.
The D’s were in power for forty years. The constitutional order they established with the New Deal was fought tooth and nail the whole time. They accomplished good things and bad things. Now the R’s are in charge and making a real hash of things. The pendulum will swing back. The country is being run into the ground.
For a thinking conservative’s view of the mess the R’s are making of things check out John Cole at Balloon Juice.
John, there’s no apparent truth to the contention that Perot helped Clinton. Research indicates the Perot vote was fairly evenly split between he and Bush.
TJ @ 222
I don’t know TJ. Point me somewhere. 20 some odd million votes for Perot in ’92 was an awful lot. Even in ’96 I believe he got 8 million.
TorridJoe@74,
So you are trying to say Ward Churchill was really just anti-government? At best you are trying to say he is an anarchist and wants everything returned to the wild west?
That is a pretty lame spin to try to hide this lunatic’s hatred of this country.
X@99,
Kosovo? Oh you mean when he bombed the Chinese embassy all the while Al Qaeda was planning another attack on us. Was that before or after the BJ in the Oral Office? I forget.
Dubya@132,
Counselor, I was posing a rhetorical question. You might try it sometime in the courtroom.
john @ 223
not sure what the size of the vote matters, if they would otherwise have split evenly between the two remaining candidates had he not run…
vwrc @ 224
I think Churchill said fairly clearly what he meant. Anti-central government, if you will–same as many conservatives. It certainly doesn’t equate to hatred of one’s country. Did people who hated the Communist government really hate East Germany? I doubt it.
Dubya@96,
Well aren’t YOU one to call the kettle black. It is you crazy liberals that are the ones out doing the violence. You protest and smash windows (ala WTO) , intimidate people. And when conservative speakers come on campus, your thugs attack them (Ann Coulter and William Kristol). Now we see the ELF “activists” are out at it again.
Please stop trying to play the victim. Counselor, you’re no Johnnie Cochran.
Please name me one liberal speaker that ever got assaulted on a college campus by a conservative in the last 10 years?
John@174,
Was Kerry shooting that unarmed guy in back honorable? Was Kerry’s false accusations that every single gi in Vietnam committed atrocities honorable? Is kerry’s refusal to this very day to sign the standard form 180 to allow all his records to be release honorable? (Bush HAS signed the form by the way). Funny how liberals don’t want to be defined by a few bad apples but they are the first to do it when it comes to the military – first Vietnam and and now Abu Grahib.
And by the way – yeah I did serve in the military, so that dog ain’t gonna bark.
Oh, John, where do I start?
Let me put this simply: Do you want Democrats to win elections or not? Bill Clinton won two elections by defining himself as a centrist. Did you not learn anything from these wins?
“I’ll define successful. Say Moore’s name – many, many people know who he his. Shine a camera at him (even in a former President’s booth at a convention) and people recognize him. Many virulent, venom-spitting right-wing propagandists can’t touch that. I’m sure they showed up in the booths of prominent Republicans at their convention and no-one knew who they were.”
What the heck good is recognition when it doesn’t help you win elections, which was his stated goal?
If someone is painting (I don’t care who) Ward Churchill as the face of Democrats, then have the guts to stand up and say no, he is not, his views are wrong. I never said he was a ‘face of the Democratic party’, but if the swing voters get that idea, who does this hurt? Democrats, of course! Define yourself by distance from the extremes! Why is this so difficult for you to accept? Bill Clinton did this successfully, and Hillary is doing this now!
“Being right and doing right. I shake my head. There will be plenty of opportunites for that – on our terms not yours.”
You won’t have any opportunities if you don’t win elections by appealing to the center.
“Why shouldn’t you care about war records? Kerry knows something Bush has never known – what it is like to be shot at – minute by minute, hour after hour, day after day. I think that’s a pretty good bullet point on the resume for a commander-in-chief. It tells me maybe he’ll think at least twice before squandering lives, limbs and treasure in a foreign adventure.”
So what was your reaction when this same argument came up in 1992? How come I think your view was different then? Also, the election is over, so why are you making this argument anyway?
“For a thinking conservative’s view of the mess the R’s are making of things check out John Cole at Balloon Juice.”
So, now you’re making my point? I’m asking where are the John Coles of the Democratic Party who are looking at the message (and actions) of the party, not just the messenger or the medium! You sure don’t see anything wrong, but I guess election results are not important to you.
You don’t want me to define you? Great! Then do it by following the example of the Clintons of the party who have actually WON elections. If you want to go the way of the Republicans in 1992, then keep to your script and let the Moores of the party define you, and make the job of Republicans easier!
VWRC @ 230
you have some serious factual errors in this post. There’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest what you claim about Kerry shooting an unarmed man in the back–and plenty to suggest it is NOT true. Kerry NEVER said anything about every single GI committing atrocities–not in his Senate testimony, not ever.
There is plenty of documented evidence to declare Bush improperly discontinued his service, failed to fulfill orders and obligations, and bilked the taxpayers out of the money they spent on him–and that his superiors let him slide for it.
joe@228,
He didn’t say he wanted the US government gone did he? Show me where and I will believe you.
VWRC @ 233
he refered to “the state”, which is equivalent in context.
Torridjoe@232,
Go read “Unfit for command” by the people that actually served with him. The record supports them. That the Democrat run media tries to cover up for him doesn’t change the facts. The effect that Kerry’s staged congresstional testimony had was to convince the country that ALL GI’s were criminals. Go ask Jesse Ventura (Former Navy Seal) about how he was spit on when he wen to buy a car wearing his uniform. You cannot deny the serious damage Kerry did to the morale of the military.
Next you will tell me that Kerry was ordered to Cambodia by Nixon during Christmas.
The difference between Kerry and Benedict Arnold is that there is no dispute about Arnold’s military awards.
One more thing, John, and I’m done: “Another thing you forget – I condemn propaganda but I recognize any American’s right to produce it on the left and the right.”
So, when you say “A lot of us Democrats like Michael Moore”, that doesn’t agree your previous statement. If you condemn propganda, then condemn it, whether it comes from Sinclair/Swift Vets, Michael Moore, Jerry Falwell and his “Clinton Chronicles”.
Joe@234,
Oh, so he is really a conservative because he just wants a smaller government? LOL!
torridJoe@232,
There is no factual evidence WHATSOEVER to back up those claims you make about Bush.
“There is plenty of documented evidence to declare Bush improperly discontinued his service, failed to fulfill orders and obligations, and bilked the taxpayers out of the money they spent on him–and that his superiors let him slide for it.” – Joe
vwrc @ 238
There’s plenty of factual evidence. It’s all in his records. Have you read them? They are clear in showing that he didn’t fulfill his service. Would you like the analysis?
Unfit for Command is a discredited joke. You know you’re lying when you say they “served” with him. NONE of the people in that book served with him. They served at the same time, or in the same war.
http://factcheck.org/article244.html
jon @ 231
You wingers accuse us of “totalitarian” tendencies and then you want us to be totalitarian. We never embraced Ward Churchill – you said we did. Ward Churchill is an American citizen and has free speech rights like Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore. You say “are you going to distance the party from Ward Churchill?”. We say “Ward who?”. You say “The guy Glenn Reynolds is writing about”. We say “That’s a very partisan source and lacks credibility.”. You say “Oh no Glenn Reynolds is an independent.” We say “Puhhhleeze…” We’re not going to kick Ward Churchill just like George Bush refused to kick gays even though many of his Christian right supporters asked him to do so. To do so would have been hypocritical. We’re all sinners, remember?
As for winning elections, what worked in the nineties won’t necessarily work now. Generals often lose fighting the last war. If the Democrats are smart they’ll understand that. I’m sure Karl Rove does.
Wes Clark is looking pretty good to me right now.
Jon @ 236
Many liberals criticized F911. When I saw it, I was put off by some parts and moved by others. In the end of the day it was a half-way decent piece of “scurrilous pamphleteering”. At least it had something of a hopeful, optimistic, sense of humor about it in contrast to the mean-spirited stuff on the other side.
Well, John, I think we’re about done with this discussion, so I’ll leave it with the following:
“You say “Oh no Glenn Reynolds is an independent.” We say “Puhhhleeze…” So saying Michael Moore is an independent wouldn’t get the same response? Did I miss Wes Clark running as an independent?
Again, I never said Ward Churchill represented the D’s. I DID say that everybody (D’s, R’s, I’s) should be condmening some of his statements. I DO say Micheal Moore represents a large block of D’s, and the negative impact he had on Kerry could have very well made the difference in this election. ‘F911’ preached to the choir (as evidenced by the studios own surveys), and hacked off a lot of people, including the swing voter.
“As for winning elections, what worked in the nineties won’t necessarily work now.” So what the D’s did in 2000 and 2004 worked great? I’m sorry, but after September 11, I think the lessons of the 90’s are even more relevant.
Well, thanks for the discussion, and for keeping it civil. Now, if we can get some of the other folks around here to do the same……
John@242,
F911 was pure hateful progandistic crap.
The party of the poor, downtrodden and those without means invites you to their get together. The admission price has been lowered so that the truly poor people can attend:
Friday, May 27th, Beginning at 12:00pm
Washington Athletic Club
1325 6th Ave * Seattle, WA 98101
$10,000 Major Sponsor
$5000 Event Sponsor
$2,500 Table Sponsor
$250 Individual
Torridjoe@239,
You are simply lying. Do you deny that Steven Gardner served with John Kerry? Yes or no, please answer the question!
Unfit For Command has exposed that traitor for what he is!
Torridjoe@239,
Oh please enlighten us about Bush. I want you “analysis”. Yeah, please show me some evidence. You haven’t got any.
Still bitter about Bush winning? To borrow a phrase from your favorite America hating left wing organization why don’t you just “Move On”.
Out of Context?
On Aug. 20 the Kerry campaign issued a statement calling the ad an a smear and a distortion, saying it “takes Kerry’s testimony out of context, editing what he said to distort the facts.”
There is some missing context. What’s missing from the ad is that Kerry was relating what he had heard at an an event in Detroit a few weeks earlier sponsored by Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and was not claiming to have witnessed those atrocities personally.
Here is a more complete excerpt of what Kerry said, with the words used in the ad bold-faced so that readers can judge for themselves how much the added context might change their understanding of how Kerry was quoted in the ad:
Kerry Senate Testimony (1971): I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
The record gives no sign that Kerry doubted the stories he was relating. In fact, he said earlier this year that he still stands by much of what he said 33 years earlier (see below) and that “a lot of them (the atrocity stories) have been documented.”
tj @239
Speaking of records, John Kerry made the promise on “Meet the Press” in January that he would sign Form 180, authorizing the full release of his military records. He has not done so to date. Kerry went the entire campaign without full disclosure of his military record. I don’t have to wonder why, other than what specifics are damaging…
tj @239
Speaking of records, John Kerry made the promise on “Meet the Press” in January that he would sign Form 180, authorizing the full release of his military records. He has not done so to date. Kerry went the entire campaign without full disclosure of his military record. I don’t have to wonder why, other than what specifics are damaging…
Comment by marks
http://news.findlaw.com/legaln...../docs.html
Dude@249,
Linking to the now discredited “60 Minutes” forgeries of Bush and TANG and a list of supposed Kerry documents that list the Kerry campaign as the source show that you are grasping at straws. Kerry never signed the form180 as Bush did and thus nothing Kerry says about his past in the military can be verified independently be consulting the source – the military records themselves. Those photoshop doctored things he posted on his website prove nothing. While he was in photoshop he shuld have forged his wife’s photo to make her look appealing instead of the ugly witch that she is.
Show me where bush signed it.
Oops! I stand corrected, as this link from April 1 shows: john kerry signs form 180 Click on the full press release for details…
Marks@funny
That one got me when I first saw it.
Dd
:)
NEWS FLASH BUSH BEATS KERRY, AMERICANS REJECT LIBERAL AGENDA
av,
Thats what we heard.
Then again, we also heard rossi won.
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