There’s a lot of blame being spread around for the watered-down, pro-industry/anti-consumer/anti-woman health care bill coming out of the Senate.
Some people blame President Obama for not providing more leadership. Some blame Senators Nelson and Lieberman for intentionally gumming up the works, and some even blame the Republicans for their obstructionist strategies. But me… I blame the voters of Connecticut and Maine.
These are states that could have elected Democratic senators, but didn’t. Instead they elected “moderate” Republicans Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, and “Lieberman for Lieberman” candidate Joe Lieberman. But in a party that prides itself on rigid discipline above all else, there is no such thing as a “moderate” Republican, and thus the Maine and Connecticut voters essentially guaranteed two votes against health care reform, and one for the interests of the insurance industry. It’s the voters’ fault.
Whereas with Sen. Nelson of Nebraska, for example, you pretty much get the kinda senator you’d expect to get from Nebraska, with the notable exception of that little “D” next to his name.
The moral is, while Democrats can prove to be frustratingly independent and self-destructive, a Republican is a Republican is a Republican. Had Maine and Connecticut put Democrats in the Senate, the Republican minority wouldn’t be able to use the filibuster to hold the rest of the nation hostage. But they can, and they have.
Elections have consequences.
If Sen. Reid was a lobbyist he’d be up on charges of bribery. What he offered Sens. Landrieu and Nelson is the fucking bribe of the century. Ahhh, ethical Democrats. Neo-totalitarians masquerading as “progressives”. What a joke.
“Elections have consequences.”
I thought we learned that previously, like in 2000, when some said…
“Look, I know you are upset by the Supreme Court allowing Florida to cut off the re-count before it’s finished. But it’s really not that big a deal. After all, HOW BAD CAN IT BE?”
I’d be the slightest bit happier if the Republicans would actually have to filibuster rather than simply threaten to do so.
Dems seem so terrified of them and I still can’t fathom why.
Agrees.
Which is why I’ve never voted for Collins. I admit to being fooled into thinking Snowe is independent, but when push comes to shove – she stands with the right.
Sadly, convincing other Mainers of Collin’s and Snowe’s conservatism is impossible. They are walking proof of a lie being repeated until it’s perceived as truth.
How about we blame a political party whose leaders cannot muster the parliamentary balls to outmanuever one senator and a minority party, or a president that cannot rally his “troops”? Enough scapegoats. They have only themselves to blame for the inevitable Nader figure that will emerge.
I wouldn’t use the term “pride” to describe what seems to motivate today’s Republican party. It appears to be more something like the collective paranoid schizophrenia of the Manson Clan.
On the other hand, to expect the Democrats, or America in general, to adhere to some sort of ideological “purity”, which seems to be part of Goldy’s complaint, risks falling into a similar trap.
That being said, at this point it appears that what the Senate coughed up last night is pretty hard to stomach, considering what we were originally led to expect. What happens in the final effort to reconcile this with the House’s creation remains to be seen. Most likely, even more will be whittled away to make this peg fit through a hole of any shape.
@3:
This is an interesting idea. I would like to see what would happen politically as a result.
It’s the rePUBLICan plan , status quo Democrats with no guts .
John425–
I’m with you.
The bribery was so blatant and offensive…it clearly represented everything wrong with the 2 Party political system. Republicans have done plenty of it too. With 2 Party’s, what is your choice.
Let’s pray for 5 Party’s by 2012.
If it happens, my guess is the Progressives and Tea Partiers will be slugging it out…with the R’s and D’s wondering WTF!!!!!!!!
The Green Party will also likely participate.
It’s time folks.
“David Nexon had a big problem. An early version of national health care legislation contained a $40 billion tax aimed squarely at members of the medical device trade association he represents.
“Nexon, a former adviser to the late Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy, went to work. He marshaled 14 people like himself — lobbyists who were once congressional aides, many of them from staffs of congressional leaders or committees that had a hand in crafting the health care overhaul.
“When Senate Democrats unveiled their bill in mid-November, Nexon’s handiwork was evident. The tax on device-makers was still large — $20 billion — but only half what it might have been without the efforts of Nexon and his fellow lobbyists.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....full.story
Right, Goldy. If it weren’t for those Republicans and small state Dems, everything would be health care nirvana.
What barn door did you fall out of?
The Dem’s could have tried to get together a little more and push a little harder. Like # 3 said, the Republican’s didn’t even use the filibuster, they just threatened. Previous congresses have busted filibusters and gotten legislation through.
Sorry, this failure sits square on the shoulders of the Democratic (non)leadership.
re 1: I agree. They do seem more like your average Republican.
@3
It is kind of frustrating that 2003-2007 in the name of “keeping the powder dry” the Democrats rarely filibustered anything important and most of the time the GOP was able to out-game them when they did (see “nuclear option”, “up or down vote”, etc.).
Since health care reform is a signature issue of both the President and the Democratic Party Platform how come the Senate Leadership wasn’t willing to go with the “nuclear option” if they were having trouble getting 60 votes for cloture?
What fucking good is all of that “dry powder” doing the democrats who can’t seem to get bills passed even with 60 Senators in the caucus unless the bill is so watered down as to be pointless? How about a little fucking party discipline? If a Senator in the Democratic caucus really opposes a bill then fine they can vote against it during the actual vote but it should be really rare for any member of the caucus to not vote with the leadership on cloture votes. Not voting with the leadership on cloture should result in dire consequences up to and including having the DSCC back a challenger in the next election.
The politicians who don’t perform as we would prefer need some strong primary challenges to challenge their hegemony.
I guarantee that the ones who actually understand the word hegemony won’t like it. Kissinger used to use it on the Russians because he knew that it pissed them off.
re 10: “Right, Goldy. If it weren’t for those Republicans and small state Dems, everything would be health care nirvana.
What barn door did you fall out of?”
Would it be too much to ask of you to stop making these strawman arguments – dildo-breath.
@15
By all means, ask away.
i think you are all fighting on a sinking ship. do any of you really think our current system can survive even 5 more years? the debt coming due, the crash of the dollar, hyper inflation, rogue nukes. enjoy it while you can.
Liberals/Progressives/Democrats really need their own version of the Club For Growth. The idea of challenging so-called “moderate” democrats in hopes of replacing them with someone who is more of a true progressive or liberal is a valid one.
Hopefully it would act as much of a tool of party discipline as the Club For Growth has for the GOP.
It would be kind of nice to have someone at Lyndon Johnson at the Senate right now, putting his arm around the shoulder of recalcitrant Senators, asking him nicely to go along with the health care reform, while the other hand grabs them by the balls, and twists while he lifts them about a foot or so off the ground. Only after they squeek “whatever you say, Boss”, he drops them back on the floor, pats them on the back, and says “Glad you could see it my way….”
I, also, was in favor of bringing in the cots and forcing the Republicans to follow through with a filibuster rather early in this session. But I’ve since learned that the Senate rules were changes a few years ago (I don’t know when), and all it takes is for a Senator to file a paper announcing his intention to filibuster, and the bill will never come to a vote with sixty votes.
Since the Senate can change the rules starting this January, I hope that’s one of the rules they change.
What we have here is proof the insurance industry won big on this one with 30 million new people to insure and make profits on. I have Government healthcare at the VA and feel sorry for the folks they will get to bend over the barrel to rob our wallets in the future.
@19 Oh, great…”virtual filibusters”. Betcha that got slammed through by Frist & Co in ’06 when they knew the Dems were going to be in the driver’s seat.
Rather like the measures that were taken to prevent another President from using the tactic Johnson did quite often as President: any congresscritter who threatened to stand in the way of something Lyndon wanted passed would get a call threatening to withold all his or state’s Federal highway funds.
re 16: Yes or No would answer the question. Your answer begs the question.
Are you a question beggar?
@18…the problem with that is that most of this nation is moderate. It is NOT far left progressive nor is it far right conservative.
Those of us in the MAJORITY, do not want socialism, just as we dont want run-amok capitalism.
@19
LBJ’s probably rolling in his grave right now.
re 24: and reaching for a bottle of Cutty Sark
re 23: What most people want is something that will work well and does not infringe on their civil liberties.
Someone with an ulterior motive will always be labeling what doesn’t help ‘run amok capitalism’ as socialist.
You might even be one of those people. I see that you are trying on the ‘moderate hat’ to see if it’s a good enough fit for you to do your rightist propagandizing from.
Look around you. Your rightist hegemony is broken.
Blame Olympia or Susan? What a crock. The bill sucked so bad even Susan and Olympia couldn’t swallow the big one and vote yes. Tells Puddy much about the bill.
Puddy wonders why Maria and Patty haven’t learned anything yet being Democratics in the Senate. You hold out like Ben or Mary and you get much for your state. Or if you are Max or Kent or Chris you get freebies for your state as committee leaders. Looks like those five states made out while out stupid senators who jackboot goosestep to the front of the line with their yes votes. We got nuthin again for WA State, just like the Porkulus Bill where all the maritime money went to other states while we have the largest US ferry system.
Puddy surmises those a great memories for you FartyArt? Do you plan to adopt Charles’ bastard son?
headless, we all know you were pizzing your pants when the senate clerk read the socialist bill from Bernie Sanders per Senate rules. Nothing like Bernie Madoff gimmicks from Hairy Reid.
This Senate bill does infringe on civil sensibilities let alone civil liberties. How does fining someone for not buying insurance not infringe on civil liberties?
What a retard.
@26 Look around you. Your rightist hegemony is broken.
Wow, such insights!
re 29: Thanks for you moderate input. I really moderately appreciate it.
Have a Moderate Christmas!
Incidentally, Goldy, according to Darryl the reason Marvin Stamn was banned from HA was:
it was that he clogged up open threads with high volumes of comments that were unrelated to any conversation, and unlikely to lead to any discussion.
That narrative, for what it’s worth, doesn’t exactly jive with your reason for the jettison:
who appeared to be spamming the open threads with links to right-wing sites
not that rigor seemed to be paramount in any of the reasoning provided (as has been noted, very few right wing sites showed up in the thread you made reference to). On the assumption Darryl’s line is the one you’re going with, perhaps we
should begin a watch on “Pete Pedersen,” who seems to be well on his way to satisfying Darryl’s criteria. Another “high value” target IMO: Roger Rabbit.
Let’s get ’em all.
re 28: How does everyone’s paying for someone’s head injuries from a motorcycle accident NOT infringe on their civil liberties? — especially when affordable insurance was readily available to the rider.
The person who won’t purchase the health insurance is gambling with his/her life, but they are also gambling with everyone elses money.
I will grant that you have a point if the uninsured motorcycle rider is left to die by the side of the road because of not having insurance.
He made his bed, let him lie in it, or die in it..
john425 @ 1
Neo-totalitarianism? You crack me up.
Mr Cynical @ 9
Five “major” parties can’t happen under our “winner takes all” form of elections. I cite Duverger’s Law. Paraphrased, however big the pie, two parties will try to split it more or less evenly.
Sadly, no. You’re truly all on your own. You can’t even defend your statements when pressed just a wee bit.
You’re nothing. If not inconsistent.
re 31: He also saved up immoderate comments that people had made (often, for years)and when his arguments had no traction he would bring these things up endlessly. (Puddy does the same).
There is a fair amount of namecalling and poop throwing in these threads, but take a gander at this recent offering from PuddWaxx:
“headless, we all know you were pizzing your pants when the senate clerk read the socialist bill from Bernie Sanders per Senate rules. Nothing like Bernie Madoff gimmicks from Hairy Reid.
What a retard.
Is this the level of discourse you seek? I suggest you go to some Freeper site.
Thomas @ 3
Engineering a Republican filibuster would be genius.
Gets everyone on record.
Gives Obama political cover.
“See, we Democrats wanted to help every day hard working Americans. We really tried. But the Republicans put corporate profits ahead of the health of our women and children. What can I say? Elect more Democrats in 2010 and then we’ll overrule the renegade Republicans. I thank you for your support.”
Every single day of the Republican filibuster would be a media circus. Every single sound bite could be used to impale the Wall Street Republicans.
It’s the obviously correct way to win.
That’s the question for the ages.
Wouldn’t it be great to know why our Democrats can’t fight for what they believe in? Obama’s even more conservative than even Clinton was. Maybe he actually believes the “bi-partisan” crap. But wouldn’t it be great to have someone fight for their principles and fail honorably, rather than not try at all?
Personally, I think a Republican filibuster would break the current party once and for all. Remember when Newt shut down government? With Clinton’s jui jitsu, it totally backfired.
America wants the public option, expanded Medicare, and negotiated pharmas. They’d eviscerate any one who stood up against it (in public).
That’s why we need the Republicans to filibuster.
re 31: Marvin’s also a lint-brained asswipe who calls people names.
@25
I’m thinking about reaching for a bottle right now too.
@34
I have no idea whether he’s correct that you’re a retard. If you say you’re not, I’m fine by that. Feel better?
I’m merely pointing out that you appear to faithfully satisfy Darryl’s criteria for banishment from HA, though, as I also pointed out, these seem to be vague, even just a LITTLE fluid. I hope that helps!
@26….your hypocrisy hath spoken…
More on the filibuster;
In doing a quick Google check, it seems that the modern form of the filibuster actually dates back to when Sen. Byrd was the Senate majority leader. Republicans were threatening to tie up all legislation and bring Senate business to a halt by filibustering some rather incosequential legislation. The fact was that they didn’t want to take the heat on the actual issue, so they wanted to use the filibuster of another bill so that the “targeted” bill never made it to the floor for debate or a vote.
Byrd’s response was to have a “dual-tracking” system, allowing a filibustered bill to be set aside and the Senate to go on to with other business. But this required that the Senators file a notice of intent to filibuster, so that the leadership would know to “table” the bill (unless they had a 60-seat majority), and go on to other business.
Of course, it wasn’t used that frequently. but the number of notices filed of intent to filibuster over the last year is easily double to three times the number for any other legislative session.
One thing the Republicans DID do in 2006 was pass a rule which required 2/3 of the Senate to approve any future rule changes. Of course, there’s considerable question about whether that is valid, there’s a Supreme Court decision dating back to the 1800’s which says the Senate can set and change it’s rules anytime it wants. My guess is that for the next legislative session, they merely need to revoke the 2/3 rule by a majority vote, and then go ahead and change the rules (also by majority vote).
re 39: Couldn’t you be a little more moderate?
Of course, the Republican howls regarding deal-making and attempts to end debate are pretty hilarious. They tend to think that nobody remembers fairly recent history, or that nobody has the ability to research it on the net.
“Elections have consequences.”
It could have been much, much worse. At least this bill will provide coverage to 30 million uninsured. If Norm Coleman had gotten a few hundred more votes, there would be absolutely nothing. While we’re criticizing Maine’s and Connecticut’s voters, we should also be thanking Minnesota’s voters.
@1 If rocks had brains you’d still be dumber than a rock.
re 38: Can you point to the right or left wing sites that I’m linking to to drive up their traffic and make money?
No. You can’t. Because I don’t do this for money.
I link to something because it bolsters a point I’m trying to make. I don’t fake people out by posting to sites that pay me to put a few shekels in my pocket.
I do this during the work day like other people play solitaire. I just like the give and take of the discussions — even when they get frivolous with namecalling and finger pointing.
Marvin’s was not really engaging in a discussion. It was a subterfuge to make money. So, you are being disingenuous to state that I or RR are doing anything that meets the supposed ‘criteria’ of Darryl for expulsion from the HA Borg.
@9 If you call that “bribery,” what should we call the whole 8 years of the Bush administration? The entire GOP consists of nothing more than a barnyard of pigs jostling each other to get at the taxpayer trough.
@10 Both political parties are owned lock, stock, and barrel by corporate special interests. The people be damned. In pre-Bush days, this was our biggest problem.
Seems like a long time ago. That was before the 9/11 fiasco, the Iraq war, torture, wiretapping, the Katrina fiasco, townhall dissident arrests, U.S. Attorney firings, e-mail erasures and evidence destruction, and two stolen presidential elections. There’s nothing like Nazi behavior to remind you the two parties are different, after all.
There is, in fact, a fundamental difference between the two parties. Democrats respect constitutional limits on governmental power and obey the enacted laws. Republicans don’t.
All of the “Rocking Roger Rabbit” posts were by Roger Rabbit. I didn’t notice until just now that Mrs. Rabbit tampered with my screen name. She thought she was being funny. She does this to my grocery shopping list, too.
@&$%!!
One time she put bright red nail polish on my claws while I was asleep and I didn’t notice until I got to work. I had to borrow nail polish remover from the secretary. She is one very weird rabbit.
@42…I think I pretty much am on most issues.
Of course, nail polish remover is nothing but diluted acetone, and anytime you need to do any kind of cleanup requiring nail polish remover, it’s much cheaper to buy a can of acetone at a hardware store. Just be careful because acetone is extremely flammable.
@48…another pile of garbage from Goebbels Rabbit…
@55 The wingnut line these days is to deny the last 8 years ever happened, or at least deny responsibility. All of my rightwing relatives and acquaintances claim they’re “libertarians,” not Republicans, and pretend they had nothing to do with the endless fiascos of 2001 – 2009. Bush must have been elected by little green men from Mars because you can’t find anyone who will admit voting for him.
@17 This country has survived foreign invasion, a civil war, countless bank panics and economic depressions, two world wars, Korea and Vietnam, the Cold War, al Qaeda; and it’ll survive the Republicons, too. I’m not quite sure how, but perhaps we’ll find a way.
Hard to tell which is worse, AOL 9.1 or Gutless Democrats 41.7. The last Democrat with any balls was Eugene McCarthy. Nothing but rollovers ever since.
roger rabbit, A “libertarian” is nothing more these days than a republican without morals with a soggy teabag and a nittering nay-bag mentality. I find it interesting that the John Birch Society is no longer persona non gratis at CPAC. It looks to me like the looniest fringe of the right wing has found a roost??
@20 Yeah, it’s great us veterans have access to socialized medicine, I fully support that. You civilians can go to hell. If you wanted socialized medicine, you should’ve enlisted when you had the chance.
@23 You? In the majority? You? A moderate? snicker …
@56…sounds like you have some fucked up relatives….which comes to no surprise in being related to Goebbels Rabbit.
@27 “Blame Olympia or Susan? What a crock. The bill sucked so bad even Susan and Olympia couldn’t swallow the big one and vote yes. Tells Puddy much about the bill.”
Anyone familiar with the health insurance situation in Maine can’t help but wonder what their senators were thinking. It’ll be interesting to see whether one or both of those seats flip to the Dems when those ladies face re-election.
Yes, the bill does suck. It would have been a better bill if even one Republican had worked constructively to make it so. We could have saved the public option, broken Big Pharma’s price-fixing monopoly, and a whole bunch of other things. But all the American people got from the GOP in their hour of need was “hell no!”
Why would anyone vote for a Republican?
Someday the moderates will take back this nation…and all you party hacks on the left and right can go suck each other off in an alley.
@64 We are the moderates. You’re an extremist.
@62 “sounds like you have some fucked up relatives”
Boy you ain’t a-kiddin’. My family is split right down the middle between Democrats and Republicans, just like the whole country. The Democrat half hold jobs, keep their marriages together, keep their kids out of jail, and live respectable lives. The Republican half go to church, get divorced every 3 years, lie, cheat, steal, go bankrupt, and rape each other.
It can’t be DNA or upbringing, because we all had the same DNA and upbringing. Want to know what I think? I think some rabbits just plain have a bad attitude. At least the bad apples in my clan recognize they need all the churching they can get.
@65…thats pretty laughable, especially coming from a party propagandist like Goebbels Rabbit.
@67 I agree #64 is laughable.
@68…nice catch! comment fixed.
@59 The fun has barely begun. Wait and see, they’ll eat each other. They’re cannibals at heart.
@70…seems like the only people eating each other right now are the moderate democrats and the loons of the socialist far left – in case you had havent been paying attention lately.
Ummm, Goldy, again, according to Darryl the grounds for banishing Marvin Stamm from HA were:
“it was that he clogged up open threads with high volumes of comments that were unrelated to any conversation, and unlikely to lead to any discussion”
And that is PRECISELY what Roger Rabbit is doing on this thread (and has done on many other threads).
Now it may be that Darryl and you hadn’t got your notes straight at the time, but the fact is that is what we were told. Perhaps your policy could use a little clarification JUST for the record?
@71 What rock are you living under? We’re prospering. We have supermajorities in the legislature and both houses of Congress, and a Democratic governor and president. What do you asswipes have? Nothing but fond memories of your days at the public trough under the Bush Corrupt Regime.
@various: Looks like Marvie Stupes is back under a new screen name and IP address.
@73…guess you have not been paying attention to congress lately…hows that health care thingy going? which gutted and bastardized version are they working on now?
you are clueless.
@74 Excuse me? This doesn’t involve you. Though, @45, speaking of rock dumb, when presented with this “complex” nav problem:
« Previous Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page »
on this page:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-1.....-the-u-s/5
you announced, no doubt after CAREFUL thought, your SOLUTION:
“You have to backward-click 4 times to get to the beginning, then forward-click 5 times to read the last page. What a dolt.”
I imagine you’re especially adept at spotting dolts, dumb bunny. Go get ’em!
Can we make Emilia banned person #3?
@77
Dear Michael,
If my posts were grounds for exile from the kingdom, I would be in plenty of good and not so good company – including yours.
@78
Good come back! Maybe we shouldn’t ban you after all.
None of these Senators would have ever been elected if 60% was required for a majority.
Dump Lieberman and Nelson and vote 51 yea for a public option. This BS that 51 is not good enough is ridiculous.
headless,
Don’t start the name calling meme here fool! Your arguments are always weak!
Let’s not forget that it was NARAL that endorsed Lieberman over his rival Ned Lamont in the CT senate election. So NARAL, how has that endorsement benefited women’s reproductive rights?
RR @ # 66 said:
I was just listening to Jeff Foxworthy, who was lamenting about all the folks who go on Oprah to complain about how their parents messed up their lives. He said he hoped one day to hear somebody say…
“Hey, my mother was great, my dad was great, I’m just of shit-head”.
re 81: Blah Blah Blah…. You carry on and call people everything under the sun, but your sensitivity to getting what you are giving ls legendary here on the HA borg.
You need another implant.
re 83: When I was 25, my Father was extremely ignorant and knew nothing. When I was 35, I was amazed at how much he had learned in just 10 years.
@ 85:
Mark Twain would be proud of you.
@ 86: I’ve heard from different sources that that came from Twain AND/OR Churchill.
Whenever I’m not sure, I cite Merv Griffin as the source. He mighta said it too. We’ll never know for sure.
@ 87:
It’s Mark Twain. Has to do with when you are young and mature into adulthood.
If you’ve read Twain you’ll get the humorus irony.
Here’s a link: http://quotationsbook.com/quote/45037/
Oh, I get it. I read Letters from the Earth when I was about ten. It was at about that time that my Sunday school teahers started complaining.
I think that my Merv Griffin comment is Twainesque — except Dwight Eisenhower said it first.
I’ve got a loverly buncha coconuts yada yada yada……