Conventional wisdom says that an income tax measure would not stand a snowball’s chance in hell of passing Washington voters at the polls. Well, it looks like conventional wisdom is about to be put to the test.
Later this morning a coalition of community leaders led by Bill Gates Sr. will announce their intention to move forward with I-1077, an initiative that would impose a high earners income tax on households earning over $400,000, while reducing the state property tax by 20 percent, and eliminating the B&O tax on many small businesses. Given the history of prior income tax initiatives you can be pretty damn sure that the decision to pursue this one wasn’t taken lightly, and that I-1077’s backers wouldn’t be making this announcement if they weren’t prepared to make a substantial commitment toward its passage.
In other words, I-1077 will qualify for this November’s ballot, and voters will have the opportunity to vote it up or down. And I intend to cover this historic campaign every step of the way.
So, taxing candy and beer isn’t the solution?
Heisenberg @1,
No, taxing candy and beer isn’t the solution. We desperately need to add a progressive element to our tax structure, however small, instead of simply load the burden onto the shoulders of those who can least afford it.
I am always appalled at the folks that are quick to oppose such things. Exxon made $370 BILLION last year, paid ZERO federal income tax and when I suggest the Corporation pay SOME taxes at least, they freak out and complain about how that just makes them raise prices on fuel and its wrecking the economy that these companies have to pay taxes at all.
When I point out that, for the price of the top 25 hedge fund managers salary and bonuses, we could pay for 600,000 public school teachers, they sneer and say that those men are the ones “creating jobs” and should have to pay no taxes.
When I point out that the fact that the only jobs those men seem to create are in the banks and slave factories in China, they tell me that thats how the free market works and shouldn’t be interfered with.
When I point out the fact that the hedge fund managers and the banks they work for use their positions to strip local economies of wealth through those hedge funds and other shenanigans, they throw up their hands and call me a communist.
Why are the neoconmen we seem to have come in here such total cowards and supporters of outright criminals?
http://www.alternet.org/world/....._trillions
Have yet to read I-1077, but a tax initiative that balances tax increases with tax cuts being led by a person who is far more likely to feel the increases than benefit from the cuts carries a lot more credibility out of the box
than the pablum from our state’s initiative generator for whom this blog is named.
i don’t believe a word of it; that is, no way gov’t will lower Prop taxes….they’ll just make the income additive…
then also, slowly (just like US fed inc tax) they will expand who has to pay, and raise rates. Our Fed tax started at an extraordinarily low rate and now is of course 25-33%
The worst part about these “tax only a few” schemes is that when you insulate the masses from the source of the spending, you then enable floodgates to open for spending. On the federal level, part of the reason for our soaring deficits is that most people are only impacted by spending cuts, while few are impacted by the spending itself (that is, if only 1/2 actually pay federal taxes…those are the only people worried about deficits…but the benefit of that deficit spending accrues to the masses, especially the large voting blocs the Dims control.
6
Uhhhh…Rightwrong?
Thanks for the standard talking point. (“1/2 actually pay federal taxes”) I assume you mean federal “income” taxes. You know, people who get compensation as wages. The overwhelming majority of people who don’t pay the tax are either self employed (“Obama is killing small business!) or earn income via dividends and stock options. The latter (“we must eliminate the Capital Gains Tax…unfair…double taxation…gotta protect the job creators…trickle down”) pays on average 15% of their income.
In an equitable system, the capital gains tax rate would be gradual based on income. Earn under $50,000 in stock sales and dividends, 15%. Make 50k-100k 18%. Earn 100k-250k 20%, earn up to 500k 25%. Earn over 500k, 33% (or the top marginal INCOME tax rate. I’d still argue that the top marginal INCOME tax rate is too low and encourages overspending on executives, drives up real-estate pricing to unrealistic levels, creates a share price based corporate valuation rather than a production/consumtion based model…)
As it stands, those who earn income by not actually providing any goods or services pay FAR less than wage earners, without whose labor, the captial gains earners couldn’t exist.
The net result of this initiative will be to give political weight to the right wing. It is a golden gift from the left to the far right at a time when the right has no oxygen.
At a time when Republican leadership consists of Dino Rossi, multi time loser, and Rob McKenna, who hates poor people, this gives opportunity to the Republicans to introduce a new leader.
Not smart politics.
my family falls into this bracket (i am very thankful to say) and we will 2 votes for and hope for it’s passage.
it is about damn time too.
busdrivermike @8,
I disagree. Over the past couple years, polling has clearly shown support for such a measure to be fairly evenly split, so you are vastly underestimating its appeal. Second, the real difference this election season is that the right is that Republicans are far more energized than Democrats, so they’re turning out in November regardless. This gives Democrats something to be excited about, and thus should up Democratic turnout.
I don’t think passage will be easy. But folks looking back to the last income tax measure, that failed two to one at the polls, will be awfully surprised by how well this one ultimately does.
PR Works?
The Tea Baggers are the result of an intensive PR effort. That effort has never, till now, been balanced by an effort to promote rational measures.
This initiative may test the hypothesis that the same sort of PR machine can sell things that are worthwhile. Here are some specific things I would hope to see as part of the campaign ..
Goldy would be a great campaign manager for this issue or perhaps he could coordinate a blog based support effort.
The usually feckless state Demo leadership could untie behind this effort. Imagine Patty, Maria, Chris (the vagina trinity? .. sorry) united with Gates, Balmer, Ruckleshouse, Evans, in a SHARED support of this.
There is safety in numbers and danger i not being in such a movement .. what would the Rossis and McKenna do????
An income tax makes more sense than sales taxes or property taxes. You only pay if you have income and in this case over $400,000 for a couple and $200,000 for individual taxpayers. That’s about 3% of the households in the state.
But property taxes and sales taxes you have to pay whether you’re employed or not. You can have lost your job and property taxes continue with no relief. I-1077 also reduces the state component of property taxes by 20%.
@8
It will be interesting to see if the rual poor social conservative Republicans can be played for fools again. What new method will get tehm to vote against their own interests? How does the campaign add sell?
“If you don’t make sure those millionaires on ‘the coast’ keep their tax shelters, they’ll come to take your guns and make you get gay married!”
@8, Progress and leadership can never result by defining strategy and goals through the lens of your myopic opponent.
Lowering property taxes and eliminating some B&O tax (the most regressive piece of garbage ever devised) will attract alot of support.
@13 Cz
That is exactly why this needs tgo be seen in terms of skillful PR rahter than mere logic.
BHO actually achieved some of this by involving well known conservative minbisters in his campaign.
I can imagine a number of religous figures signing on to this .. certainloy the Catholic Church will! The real challenge would be getting some prominent Baptist-Fundie types to take a stand.
I thought the death with dignity measure would do the same thing in an election year. I was wrong of course.
The electorate that gave over 840,000 votes to Will Baker in 2004 (because he had an R next to his name) has changed. A lot of those dumbasses moved to Texas or Wyoming or whereever.. and maybe voter turnout has been better since 2004. I’ll have to check on that.
About time something like this came along.
@13: hahaha
Yup, those making over 400K can afford to pay more in a state that is in a financial crisis.
And federal incometax rates used to be much higher (over 50% in the 50’s and 60’s).
Hmmm, the economy seemed to do just fine then.
And the boogie man will come forth from the swamp and convert your son to teh gay and grab your gun and… aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!
Don’t worry. It’ll be spent on cops, prisons, national guard, stupid star wars boondoggles, torture and the like..
That’s “popular” spending..
The research has already been done, and it shows that if you soak the rich, you lose the rich.
From the Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....28295.html
I think the huge difference here is that the initiative will be properly funded. And that’s important to SJ’s point about PR.
A big side benefit is that this is coming from outside State government — from folks who are altruistically trying to do the right and stand to lose because of it — and I think the Ds should be wary of too publically aligning.
Reaganism is deeply embedded. I submit the comments in this Kitsap Sun piece on the initiative as evidence:
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/.....e-wealthy/
Unbelievably misinformed, ignorant, and irrational; lower income folks mostly, but even more importantly, just really basic gut level identification with the people who are screwing them — calling it classic Stockholm Syndrome is not inappropriate, IMO. It will be very hard to overcome, so every bit of resources will be needed.
Nevertheless, it seems to me the right mix of folks, interests, and resources is engaged and along with I-1068, 1077 should be a motivator for progressive turnout — if properly resourced and managed.
I’m anxious to be involved and thankful for info from HA, hopefully they’ll throw a little love Goldy’s way…
Who gives a shit what Chris Vance says? During the 2004 recounts, Vance showed up to give a press conference in the parking lot of KCRE’s Mail Ballot Operations Site (MBOS) about how Dean Logan was helping Democrats steal the election, yet he never once set foot inside the building. He didn’t know a fucking thing. Everything he told the media had been scripted in advance and was a fucking lie. Want to know what the Republican observer team did in that building throughout the recounts? They were knitting, reading books and magazines, chatting with each other (and with Democratic observers) — in short, they did everything except watch the ballot counting. There wasn’t much to see, because it was like watching grass grow. But out in the parking lot, Vance was busy talking into TV cameras, telling the world that dark and evil snakes were crawling on the floors of MBOS. What a slut.
@20, Zotz, The comment section of The Kitsap Sun seems to be permanently inhabited by the dregs of trollhood. They’re probably all retired Navy guys living off their monthly gubnment checks. Kitsap county would be a desserted, ‘ghost town’ if not for the largesse of the US taxpayer coughing up for Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and the Naval Bases Keyport & Bangor.
Hey Chris! Yeah, you, Chris Vance! I know you guys read this blog and you’ll see this. I want to let you know something. I hope you’ll think this is funny. One day, in one of your parking lot press conferences, that “reporter” in the green raincoat who asked you a question, which you answered on TV, was sweet little old me. That’s right, moi. Your long-eared friend! Things were so slow in MBOS that I wandered outside, mingled with the media crowd, and had a little fun with you.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
He fell for it, too. Vance sure is a gullible buffoon.
I wonder if Bill Gates, Sr. will share what his Taxable Income was the past 3 years and what he anticipates it to be in the future with a commitment to disclose.
It’s my understanding most of the wealth of Gates & his family is in a Trust.
Will Trust’s have to pay taxes??
I doubt it.
The Trust mechanism is the perfect tax avoidance tool.
Gates has the best tax advisors in the world.
Without full disclosure by the proponent Mr Gates Sr., this seems a bit shallow.
Klynical once again fails to report Rasmussen numbers when Obama is on the improve–
Wednesday, April 21, 2010
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows that 31% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty-one percent (41%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -10
Democrats did slide a bit in this poll–
Monday, April 19, 2010
Republican candidates now hold a 10-point lead over Democrats in the latest edition of the Generic Congressional Ballot, tying the GOP’s high for the year recorded the second week in March and their biggest lead in nearly three years of weekly tracking.
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 46% of likely U.S. voters would vote for their district’s Republican congressional candidate, while 36% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent.
@17 Neither you nor anyone else can possibly justify the distribution of tax burden in this state. Not remotely.
Fact-check:
1. Washington’s overall tax burden, measured as a percentage of personal income, is below average. We rank something like 32nd in relative tax burden among the 50 states.
2. The quality of our schools and public services is suffering because Washington’s taxes are so low.
3. The problem is how those taxes are distributed. The poor pay 17% of the income to the state, counties, and cities; the affluent pay only 3%. That’s obscenely unfair to, among others, the poor rural conservatives living in the red counties.
4. The proposed high-earner income would help balance the tax burden by making the 3-percenters pay more, in order to prevent further degradation of our schools and public services, but doesn’t give tax relief to the 17-percenters.
5. The long-term solution is to get rid of our antique, unfair, Rube Goldberg tax system and replace it with a state income tax. The specific plan recommended by the Gates tax study commission is to replace the state sales tax and the B & O tax with a state income tax. I’d readily go along with a revenue-neutral, flat-rate income tax to replace those two taxes, but whatever, let’s get ‘er done.
Trusts are NOT exempt from taxes. Trust me.
correction @21 — I left out an important bit of infomation. It should read:
“Vance showed up to give a press conference in the parking lot of KCRE’s Mail Ballot Operations Site (MBOS) almost every day”
This may be a case where the message matters. IF it comes from Gates and a non-partisan group with a rational policy with politics minimized I would be interested. When it comes from Goldy and leftie moonbats wanting everybody to earn the same thing and grow government more or the freakazoid righty teabaggers and Timmy…I tune it out.
I’ll give it a real read and consideration. This might be one of the very few initiatives I sign.
Careful observers will note that they set the limit just high enough so that they, and their high-earning friends in state and local government, will escape the tax. Tens of thousands of employees working for the state, various counties, and at Sound Transit, make $100,000 to $200,000 per year. I think it’s unethical that they set the limit just over their and their friend’s salaries.
5 righton
I get it. You’re not against what the initiative SAYS, but you are against what it DOESN’T SAY. Makes perfect sense.
The more I examine the details of this, the more it looks like this is designed to tax the rich in order to redirect money to the teacher’s union and SEIU.
Where are all the bloggers who have railed in the past about the initiative process? Why aren’t they ranting now?
Is Willy Sr. the new Tim Eyman?
Troll
You don’t “examine” any policy proposals. Don’t flatter yourself. Before posting, you simply grease up your hand, slide it up your ass, blindly grab whatever you touch, then pull it out.
28. slingshot spews:
“Trusts are NOT exempt from taxes. Trust me.”
Rather than trust you, could you please show me where in the Gates Initiative Trusts are taxed??
I know Trust Income is taxed Federally.
If the Beneficiary of the Trust receives income, he/she is taxed personally.
HOWEVER, if income stays in the Trust, the Trust is a seperate legal entity subject to tax.
My point is, if that is the case, that income stays in the Trust..
Show me in the Gates Initiative where that Trust Income would be taxed by the State?
In the advertisement, it shows High Earners over $400,000 and says nothing about Trust Income.
Also, keep in mind that Gates Jr. took relatively small salaries from Microsoft. he took full advantage of low Capital Gains Rates.
His ordinary income was low…with lots of Long-Term Capital Gains.
All I’m asking for is full disclosure by the proponents. Are they dodging the bullet they are firing??
I just went thru the text of I-1077,
Mr. Gates went to great lengths to discussion partnerships and Sub S corps…
but he forgot to include TRUSTS slingshot.
This is the Gates Loophole!!
Keep all your income producing assets in a TRUST and let the TRUST pay Federal Income Taxes but NO State Income Tax.
I knew this would be self-serving.
Why doesn’t Gates Sr. include income earned by Trusts??
Fair question considering his son has something like $30 BILLION in a Trust and I suspect the old man does too.
Never trust a lawyer….especially a rich one.
A trust is simply a legal framework for avoiding probate problems. It does not exempt anyone from the applicable taxes. Stocks and bonds income at 15% and regular taxable income at whatever the income level is.
I highly doubt they’d go to all this trouble, and then fine-print themselves an exemption. Even the Trolls are smart enough to sniff that out.
Bill Gates Sr. is on ‘The Conversation’ with Ross Reynolds at noon today. You can call in and ask him about it, klynicalsAFool.
38. slingshot spews:
You are missing the point.
Gates Initiative taxes INDIVIDUAL EARNERS…it does not tax income in Trusts.
Yes, trusts pay Income Taxes. However they are only taxed to individuals IF distributions of income are made. This is different from Partenerships and SubS Corps where the income flows thru to the Individual and would be taxed.
You need to understand this key loophole slingshot.
I have to leave in a minute so may not get a chance to call in.
The question about Trusts needs to be answered.
Are you a Tax Attorney or Tax CPA Slingshot??
Trusts are the Rich Man’s Tax Avoidance Tool slingshot and liability shelter…not just a probate tool.
I have been involved in setting up many and I know from experience.
slingshot–
Let me know if you find out any more about the TRUST income issue.
Question to KlynicalsAFool (as well as tax professionals):
Ignoring all the extraneous issues like dividends and capital gains, if a person earns $X in a year and then places $Y in a trust, is that person’s income tax based on $X or on $X – $Y?
@19
The editorial you link to singled out Ohio as a place to move to and yet:
This why I donated to your blog, Goldy. Your voice is needed now more than ever to ensure passage of this historic bill, critical to the future of our state. The stench of BS that will emanate from every location where the Seattle Times is sold will be overpowering and the traditional electronic media won’t do much to counter it. Since we don’t have local liberal talk radio, the ratio of radio hours against 1077 to those for it will be staggering.
Keep up the fight and don’t be afraid to ask if you need more support.
Oh I love it. You now have righties complaining that the rich are able to hide their income and avoid paying taxes.
And further @19.
Laffer? Of the thoroughly discredited Laffer curve?
Did you look at the study or just the WSJ executive summary provided buy Laffer, who, surprise, surprise, wrote the study. (BTW, there’s commedy gold on American Legislatvie Exchange Council. “We are non-partisan and welcome all as long as you agree 100% with our Jeffersonian ideals, that have nothing to do with Jefferson but it sounds good, that every single tax levied is evil. We welcome, in a non-partisan way, candidtates from both parites who espouse ultra conservative fiscal and social policy.)
Things not taken into acoount. There’s no correlation or data on the people leaving states to their level of income. So, back to the Bill Gates and a roomful of homeless analogy, if 999,999 wage slaves move out of California and a single Health Care executive earing $400mil in stock options leaves, 100,000 people who earn 400k or more left the state.
Other things not taken into account. The number of high-income tax earners drops because they left the state. It’s not possible, in Laffer world, that commercial real estate agents who in 2006 earned huge ammounts are now trying to find a way to pay the mortgage due to the recession. There aren’t fewer high income residents due to foreign outsourcing or corporate layoffs or recession in general stunting demand for private sector services. IT’s ALL because people are running from the tax burden.
Nice try, Troll.
@19 “if you soak the rich, you lose the rich”
Oh yeah, right, asking a group of people who pay one-fifth as much state taxes as families making $20,000 a year is “soaking the rich.”
If the rich, who have gotten a free ride in this state for 100 years, are so selfish they’d pull up stakes over being asked to pay slightly more of their fair share, then we don’t want ’em here anyway.
why doesnt everyone pay the same rate??
hmm…….
Troll# 31: So, you advocate an income tax on incomes greater than 100K? Or do you just want the Democrats to change your proposal so you would have more objections to it?
@48 because the poor and middle class need a larger percentage of their income to pay for basic necessities of living than the rich. That is why the Federal Income Tax is progressive, because it is fair and a flat tax is not.
If anything happens to Bill Gates, Sr., Frank Blethen and Joni Balter should be immediately rounded up by the police.
@50…my response to that would be: tough shit.
one vote for all..one tax percentage for all.
@SJ
Having the initiative eliminate the B&O tax on small business was politically brilliant as was a 20% cut in the state portion of the property tax. The B&O tax is hated by the self employed and small businesses that have to pay it. The local chambers hopefully will jump on board the bandwagon for this initiative. By cutting the property tax maybe this initiative can tap into some of the anti-tax sentiment that fuels the dreck Eyman puts out. Seniors for one should be happy with a property tax cut.
@52 Tough shit Vince it doesn’t work your way in this country. Income tax has been progressive for a long time and that is not going to change.
42. N in Seattle spews:
You still pay tax on $X.
However, the issue is the earnings that come as a result of money/assets put into the Trust where they earn Dividends/Interest/Rent etc.
This is the Rich Guy’s Haven.
Leave it in there…and not take a personal distribution.
Thus Tax-free according to the Gates Sr. Plan.
Suckers!
45. don spews:
No one is complaining.
Just trying to get the facts sir.
If the intent is to try and put more of the burden on the “rich”…why should the super-rich escape using a Trust mechanism??
Reasonable question..
What’s the answer?
Of course, the whole reason why wingnuts argue for a flat-rate tax, especially one without exemptions or deductions, is that they know that taxes on the poor and lower middle-class would top out in the low single digits. Anything more would result in taxes literally taking the bread out of the mouth of babes.
Yet under that scenario, the upper-middle class and wealthy would end up paying less in taxes than they spend on dining out.
53. Chris Stefan spews:
Many Seniors with lower income already have a huge loophole in Property Taxes with the under-reported Senior Exemption.
Look it up.
There is no way to police it.
It’s basically the “honor system”.
Huge discounts to those who apply and submit a copy of their 1040 which could be phoney….and zero consequences for cheating.
I have uncovered folks living in $1 Million+ Houses getting huge exemptions.
Turns out many of them have put all income earning assets in… A TRUST! And show little income themselves.
Another scam.
Look it up Chris.
Senior Property Tax Exemption.
I haven’t read the initiative yet, and I’m not well versed in the taxation of trusts. But it seems to me that if trusts do create a loophole, we could just enact the income tax first, and then close the loophole afterwards.
But I’ve got a hard time believing that the trusts are such an enormous loophole. If it were, then everyone and their brother would be using trusts to shelter income from the federal income tax.
As for the Gate’s family fortunes being in trust, don’t confuse personal “living” trusts with charitable trusts.
Bill Gates Jr. has given away a good share of his wealth to a charitable trust, and is continuing to give more. By donating Microsoft stock to the charitable trust, he gets a tax deduction at the current value of the stock at the time of the donation, but he doesn’t have to pay taxes on the appreciation of the stock value over time. The trust itself doesn’t have to recognize the appreciation, it takes it with a “stepped up” basis, which is the current value of the stock. In short, the appreciation on the stock value is never recognized or taxed as income. But as a charitable organization (I presume a tax-exempt 501(c)3 organization), the trust wouldn’t be paying taxes anyway.
Of course, the beneficiaries of this tactic are the millions who are benefiting from the Gates’ trust charitable funding of medical research, vaccinations of children in poor countries, etc. So I really don’t care that we don’t collect taxes on the appreciation in the stock value, or on the earnings of the trust itself.
By the way, since this year is the only year in which there is no federal estate tax (thanks to the Bush administration and the Republican Congress in 2001), charitable funding has fallen off a cliff. With no incentive to give a portion of their estate to charity to avoid estate taxes, America’s wealthiest Americans have, in large part, decided to keep it within the family. But the estate tax comes back into affect next year, unless Congress votes to extend the 2001 tax cut. Which leads some to advise (hopefully tongue-in-cheek) the rich elderly to avoid having thanksgiving dinner this year at their children’s houses – unless they bring a food-tester with them.
What’s going to be really interesting is the scenes likely to play out in various hospitals in December 2010, as lots of “right-to-life” advocates try to talk their doctors into pulling the plug on Grandma before the year ends, thereby ensuring they can get a larger share of Grandma’s estate.
KlynicalsAFool is intentionally misrepresenting the Gates Foundation, in several ways.
a) The foundation was funded by Bill Gates Jr.’s wealth, not his income. This initiative proposes a tax on income, so the existence of the Gates Foundation is irrelevant.
b) The Gates family didn’t create the foundation to “hide” their money. Once the money is in the accounts of the foundation, it’s no longer Bill’s to “hide”, and it’s controlled by the directors of the foundation. (Yes, the Bills, pere et fils, are on that directorate, but so too are many other people who aren’t related to them.)
c) The Gates Foundation, not the Gates family, created a trust to manage its investments.
There are many other intentional misrepresentations in KAF’s cynical attempt to paint the initiative as a Gates windfall at the expense of … well, at whose expense other than Washingtonians who are eminently and easily able to afford this insignificant nick into their fortunes?
i might be a fan of this… but mostly because i hate property taxes so much. and b&o taxes.
why isn’t tim eyeman into this?
gates foundation > the us government
@54…yep, thats fine…you keep on keeping on with that broken system of yours…
the lazy and the stupid will continue to keep voting for people who buy them off with freebies and welfare while making the rest of us pay for it….
the only way to solve that is by making everyone have the same amount of skin the game.
47% of this people in this country dont pay a fucking dime in federal income tax….
you dont pay any federal income tax? fine – then you do not get to vote in any federal elections…that sounds fair and just to me..
Go to hell, anti-American asshole.
59. rhp6033 spews:
“But I’ve got a hard time believing that the trusts are such an enormous loophole. If it were, then everyone and their brother would be using trusts to shelter income from the federal income tax.”
They don’t shelter income necessarily from FEDERAL Income Tax. That is not what I said.
Undistributed Income in a Trust is taxable for FEDERAL purposes…but was not included in Gates Sr. Initiative to be subject to his proposed STATE Tax.
And there are plenty of variations of Living Trusts.
As for CHARITABLE TRUSTS–
They include assets & income that Taxes were never paid on.
While I admire the work Gates has done…it still begs the question why should his Trust benefit from wealth never taxed??
That is what is happening here.
Don’t kid yourself.
Trusts are a powerful tax shelter.
So is what Gates Jr. did by taking out rather minimal salaries and allowing his wealth to accumulate in the Corporation via increased Stock Price that eventually was donated or gifted tax-free to his Charitable Trust or sold at Long-Term Capital Gains Rates.
Do you really think the founder of Bogle & Gates…the father of Mr. Microsoft…who has put together numerous complex Trusts as part of Tax & Estate Planning maneuvers…didn’t leave his not so little nestegg out of the State Tax Game on purpose??
Why tax salaries?
Why not Trust income?
Why not WEALTH??
People earning money is a result of making money currently.
I thought most of you guys wanted to tax the RICH?
Does this mean allowing the SUPER-RICH to lead you around by the nose away from their real wealth??
SUCKERS!
Let’s Tax their WEALTH!!
In or out of Trusts.
Won’t even need an Income Tax…if you are smart enough to write a law that Gates and his firm cannot find a way around!!
Did I tell you that you are SUCKERS?!
Let me put it this way–
Gates Jr. is America’s wealthiest dude, right?
What % of his wealth will he be paying tax on here?
.00000000000000001% or so??
Gates Sr demands fairness.
He defines fairness in terms of class warfare…but allows his son to escape.
Think about it suckers…I mean folks.
What is Bill Gates, Jr.’s “fair share” Mr. Gates Sr.?
Answer me that.
@67…go eat a dick, fucktard.
there is nothing american about people freeloading off of the taxes of others..
KAF, you may not have noticed that Bill Jr. has created the largest charitable foundation in the world. He’s giving the money away to benefit millions of other people, worldwide.
American
socialtax policy is to treat such donations under special rules. I don’t know of very many people who object to such treatment when the public good is being so demonstrably improved. In giving up a large measure of control of those funds, Bill Jr. is compensated by also being relieved of taxation for the assets that are no longer his.Since Bill Sr. is perhaps the nation’s leading advocate for the estate tax, and since Bill Jr. contributed a significant chunk of the money behind the initiative that retained Washington’s estate tax, your strawman doesn’t pass muster.
You refer, I assume, to General Electric and myriad other huge corporations that rape and pillage America to enrich their
fat-cat executivesshareholders.I am refering to anyone who doesnt pay federal income taxes..
why is that so hard to understand? my guess is that you dont pay any either…
@KAF
You know, it is possible to let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
Frankly getting any sort of income tax in this state, even if trusts or investment income aren’t covered, is a huge step forward. Why don’t we try to get this passed then work on amending it to cover trusts and investment income later? Which is the bigger hurdle, passing an income tax in the first place or correcting an oversight in an initiative?
I understand you are upset that it appears the initiative would exempt Gates and his son from much of the effects of a state “high-earners” tax. However from a political standpoint it is useful that Gates is so far the public face of the campaign and that he and other members of the group are willing to fund getting it on the ballot and the campaign to pass it.
At this point I can’t tell if you are a concern troll, someone who thinks taxes are communism, or simply one of those lefties who insists all motives be pure and all legislation be perfect out of the gate.
Im all for a state income tax on EVERYONE, as long as ALL other taxes are eliminated.
@71, 74
The people that didn’t pay taxes this year:
A. Got a 1 time credit for buying a house, which helped keep the banks, realtors and home builders in business.
B. Got a 1 time credit for buying a car, which helped keep factories, dealerships and banks (75% of cars are bought with credit) open.
C. Didn’t make any money.
I barely paid taxes this year. I would have rather paid more because that would have meant that I made more money in ’09.
There’s nothing American about hating on people that are struggling to make ends meet. Yes, there are lazy people that are abusing the system, but 99% of American’s don’t fit in that category.
“Give people a hand up, not a handout” used be a conservative mantra. Now it seems the mantra is “piss in the face of everyone below you.” Or maybe, “fuck you, I got mine.”
Chris says-
I know a con-job when I see one.
To pick on wage earners makes no sense applying any standard of fairness.
Gates is worth $50 Billion and will pay virtually nothing.
How is that fair?
Plus Gates Sr. has profitted immensely from Estate & Trust planning. He knows the game.
So do his super-rich clients who are escaping this tax!
Gates Jr. contributions to his Foundation are noble…but the stock he contributes has accumulated huge gains no one has paid tax on.
Trying to paint the Gates Family as noble is a joke. They are businessmen. They have been right there in Olympia creating huge tax loopholes to benefit them. Don’t kid yourselves on this one.
It is totally self-serving.
Gates knows Trusts, donating appreciated assets & long-term capital gains.
Now he can add this phoney Income Tax that almost exempts his family from any consequences to his list of accomplishments not only for his family…but his firms super-rich clients.
It’s not about Left or Right on this one…it’s about a Super Rich Guy scam on Washington State.
Let’s call it what it is.
Let all rich guys, except Super Rich Gates & his clients, pay to support a Budget Deficit.
It’s flat out wrong.
Michael said:
Silly lefty! That’s what trickle down really means!
@78:
Nothing you’ve said so far in any of the threads today makes ANY sense, it’s random strawman bullshit.
My hat’s off to the folks who have tried to have a civil conversation with you and I applaud their patience.
Not me.
Let’s eliminate all doubt, shall we: You ARE a concern troll, OR a troll playing a concern troll, which makes you a sockpuppet.
So, comeout, comeout whoever the fuck you are! Do tell!
Then go the fuck away.
Klynical
Do you ever pause to consider that having facts at hand might permit you to make a more persuasive argument? Nah. As Mason Williams said long ago, “who needs truth if it’s dull.”
Vincie,
Are you advocating taking the vote away from retired people, many of whom pay no income tax? Please, push that position, would you, Vincie? I’ve noticed that you never much think about your arguments before you make them. You really should work on that.
@82…all people who have an income should pay an income tax….period.
It might be that old people could actually pay less…they would no longer have to pay any other taxes(in this scenario)
Yea Vince, how about the military? Our soldiers pay no income tax on their salary when they are in a war zone. Is that a big FU to them also?
@82
That’s a difference of opinion that I can work with and stated that way you’re not pissing on the working class. ;-)
@78
So? If the initiative passes what does Gates gain over the current situation? Any business either Gates is involved in is large enough to not be subject to the B&O tax exemption. Sure both Gates might save a bit on property taxes but if that was the real goal why not back a property tax cut measure?
I say lets use Gates’ money, political connections, etc. to get the high earners tax passed. If the trust thing is a real problem the legislature can always add trusts to the income tax later.
This state has been trying to pass a state income tax since 1933, we shouldn’t let this opportunity pass by just because you don’t think the motives of the primary sponsor are “pure” enough.
@80
Well KAF is playing the part of the classic “purity troll”. There are a bunch of them running around Daily Kos and Firedoglake is pretty much all purity trolls now.
I suspect at least some of the concern and purity trolls, especially on liberal, lefty, or democrat sites are paid by the right wing or by industry lobbyists. Sowing dissent amongst the ranks is a good way to prevent any group from being effective. Divide and conquer and all that.
Still I’m rather curious if KAF is someone we might know by another name.
asshole Vince @74:
Guess again.
Though I must note that, despite not paying any quarterly estimates in 2009 because of a large capital-loss carryover from 2008, my taxes turned out to be much lower than I’d expected.
@85…pissing on the working class? I am in the working class!
I just think its patently wrong as a nation that we allow a segment of society to vote on giving themselves doses of govt largess without having to pay for it.
We all benefit from taxes, therefore we all need to contribute.
The tax code could be condensed to a couple of sentences: Everyone pays XX% of their income(which includes monies earned via stocks etc). Businesses pay XX% of their NET profit.
all other taxes, accept for a similar state income tax, would be eliminated – and follow it with big tariffs on imported goods.
no deductions, no exceptions.
You make people feel the sting of how much all this bullshit costs, and maybe then we can get back to a smaller, more fiscally responsible govt – LIKE IT WAS MEANT TO BE.