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Hey Goldie, if you’re going to be an iPhone developer, see if you can find iPhone-friendly YouTube links to post. Or at least give us a handle on the content, at least until HTML5 gains in popularity.
The rest of the story from Politico: Reid’s a lying liar. Obama’s an ‘exaggerator’ … i.e. liar.
Sen. Jim Dement was half right about one thing: Health care will be Obama’s Waterloo.
The other half of it is that it can be the Republican’s Waterloo as well.
If health care fails now, President Obama and the Democrats in office will suffer badly in the polls next November.
If health care passes the Republicans are on their way to extinction as I predicted numerous times in Nov. 2008. And, things are playing out pretty much as I had expected.
1) Obama saved the banking institution.
2) Obama saved the auto industry in America.
3) Obama stopped the massive job losses.
4) Obama is getting us out of the war in Iraq that Bush lost.
5) Obama, as Commander-in-Chief, is winning the War on Terror in Afghanistan.
6) Obama has set the stage to reform health care.
7) Obama’s Stimulus & Jobs bills are starting to create and will continue to create more jobs.
8) Obama banning Bush’s torture policy and interrogating the terrorists, like the Christmas Day bomber, is netting a treasure trove of actionable intel on al Qeada in Yemen.
9) Obama has forced Pakistan to abandon its “peace deal” that Bush allowed the Pakistani’s to make.
10) Republicans have Teabaggers and Sarah Palin on their side.
Come November, the Dems will still control the house and will regain a 60 seat majority in the Senate.
Starting in 2011 get ready for the new round of kick Republican’s ass legislation involving Green Energy issues and getting away from terrorist funding sources that Republicans love — oil.
2012 Dems still control both houses of congress, lose a few seats in the Senate, Obama gets re-elected and the RNC base goes bat shit crazy trying to figure out how the Juggernaut that is Obama-mania steamrolled them into oblivioin.
R.I.P. RNC.
Republicans have lied to the American public about what the Democrats’ health care reform bill is. (And just about everything else.)
They’ve opposed every measure that both Bush and Obama have taken to save the economy — things that economists have known since the 1930s are necessary to pull an economy out of depression.
They’re beating the drums for the same economic policies — gold standard, balanced budgets, government spending cuts, etc. — that turned an ordinary recession into the Great Depression 80 years ago.
These people not only learn nothing from history, they’re ignorant of history (and everything else). They wrong. Wildly, catastrophically, crazily wrong. They deserve zilch credibility.
So why do they have any followers? Why does a significant percentage of our population still swallow their bullshit?
As P. T. Barnum once said, new suckers are born every minute. For that reason, educating our citizenry is a never-ending job.
That’s what I do here.
RR @ 4:
“educating our citizenry is a never-ending job.”
Truer words were never spoken. The Republicans know this, hence their never ending assault on “academia” as something bad.
Not teaching Civics and American history leads to Bozo’s like Lostinaseaofblue and others to believe that our nation was founded on Christian principles. Even though the Constitution, treaties, laws, courts and our founding fathers banned government from religion.
Housing sales are down…
unemployment up……
hhmmm….good thing we spent trillion dollars
GBS, The Never-rending Story. We await your response.
And the Democrats are the ones who will “edumucate our citizenry”.
Obama is tanking in the polls:
Obama at all time lowest approval rating
More double standards to go along with your MSNBC “truth” squad: Lisa Miller of Newsweek wants civility. At Newsweek civility and bipartisanship mean that inconvenient Republicans shut up, back down, and let Obama have his way and his healthcare bill (which he couldn’t even get from last year’s Democrat supermajorities.)
Miller cites only one uncivil Democrat, Lanny Davis, who was unkind to “Watergate prosecutor” Ken Starr. All her other examples of incivility are of GOPers not giving Democrats what they want.
Perhaps Miller didn’t hear about Ed Schultz at, um, MSNBC. Schultz said this weeks that Cheney’s heart should be ripped out and kicked around the room as a prelude to indicting Dick for war crimes.
It should be. That is, if Cheney had a heart to begin with
Why do you hate America, traitor?
@more is less- editing the work without so much as an ellipsis. From that Politico (itself a Drudgeco organ)
Obama exaggerated. Boehner lied. Reid was incorrect. Ryan is wrong.
Reid was incorrect about “no one has talked about reconciliation.” Big whoop, that’s nothing to do with the substance of the bill. And unless someone cares to point it out for me, this Politico piece nowhere says about what Obama “exaggerated”. Pulling out that tired song that they used so often against President Gore.
#9 Oh god…another -15 points in that index and he’ll MATCH the last Republican President. That’s so f**ked up I can’t stop laughing. If you think Obama is tanking because of HIS ratings, don’t you remember why he got elected, because YOUR last run in power just over a year ago was EVEN WORSE! ROTFLMAO
I lied. Not “all” Newsweek examples of incivility, aside from Lanny Davis, are of Republicans not giving Dems what they want. One of Lisa Davis’s examples is of Republicans not giving Mitt Romney what he wanted.
@12: I wasn’t editing. I was translating and transliterating. No ellipsis needed.
(I don’t hate America. I hate Broadway Joe. But hey, who doesn’t?)
You’re a whiny liar @ pms90210. From your link
And as for Ed’s remarks- I’ve often wondered how Cheney could have heart issues when he obviously doesn’t have one.
uh oh, another crooked democrook is going down.
The gov of NY is going byby…..
Wow. A rose by any other name, eh, @Truth Squad? Did you know Truth in russian is Pravda? I bet you did.
Check out the brain on Mark. He’s right again.
Keith Olbermann is a lie. Change it to Keith Odormann.
Rachel Maddow is a lie. Change to Rachel Madcow.
Da.
Re 4
As usual liberals claim anyone with whom they disagree stupid, a hick, uneducated et al.
GBS, you produced one clause from one treaty and one letter from someone who didn’t even write the constitution as evidence that the framers intendend a Berlin Wall separation?
And you call me a bozo. Physician, heal thyself.
Re 16
But you still can’t deny that if hateful, vulgar and ad hominem attacks are going to happen they do so most often on the left.
On the topic of liars-
Obama didn’t stop a great depression. His idiotic economic policies did sell this country out to China. They did bury my kids and eventual grandchildren under a mountain of unneeded debt. But you’re trying to prove a negative. ‘Had Obama not intervened things would have been worse’. Says who and on what evidence?
We aren’t pulling out of Iraq anytime soon, certainly not in the 1 year the holy one promised.
We aren’t closing Gauntanamo.
The health care reformn is corporate welfare for insurance companies. It would make mandatory the purchase of a product some don’t want or need. Individuals have a right to this choice, provided they are willing to accept the consequences of it. And it is another of that serial liar Obamas untruths as a campaign promise.
Your messiah is just a two bit conman turned politician. Or is that the same?
Oh, forgot. For the first time ever bond rating agencies are lowering US treasury bond ratings. Go Obama!
Forgot one more thing. All Obama policies are ‘revenue neutral,’ so the huge cost overruns won’t really exist. That should be a great consolation to us as we become a 3rd world power!
@22, We have a difference of opinion. I do deny that if hateful, vulgar and ad hominem attacks are going to happen they do so most often on the left.
MSNBC? When they have a leftie ex-congresscritter doing a show in the wee hours we can talk about that feed being the Fox of the left. In the meantime, nuh-uh.
Did someone eat that big brain of yours, Mark?
Politico is a dump for washed-up writers from the Washinton Post. Their piece about yesterday’s summit is a selective dime-store summary of partisan tweets. That’s why Obama’s exaggerations didn’t get play in the body of the a story that’s not a story.
Politico doesn’t use the word ‘lie’ for Reid’s lie about reconciliation, but I did, because the lying liar Harry Reid told a lie.
Despite its faults, Politico gives us more fairness and balance than goldy did about rhetoric getting in the way of facts. That’s because goldy doesn’t let facts get in the way of his horse’s ass. Typical goldy, in other words.
Forgot the link, and Mark’s wild and crazy about links.
Y’all are kind of ignoring the health care reform already passed. It passed the House. It passed the Senate. All we’re talking about now is using reconciliation to pass the tax and budgeting changes to those bills that we need.
@23. lostinaseaofblue ….. why, you’re one of us. I guess if you swim in blue waters, you find yourself after all. Except the debt was run up for the Chinese by two unfunded taxcuts for the rich, an unfunded and poorly implemented medicare addition, and one whole unnecessary war. all under Republican leadership with enough help from jellyfish democrats to call the mess bipartisan. Small steps, but you’re coming along. Glad to see we have your support for single payer. yay foundinaseaofblue.
Re 26
Both MSNBC and Fox are more interested in pushing partisan issues than informing their viewers. And both are more interested in entertaining than in journalism. Beck and Maddow have more in common as journalists than not, neither are in fact, both are in name. NPR used to be a credible source until the presidency of George Bush when they became a mouthpiece for progressive propaganda. That’s a shame. As much as I disagreed with their pronounced liberal bias, they did used to present the real news in enough detail that the bias could be overlooked.
And I stand by what I said. A conservative will politely (usually) refute a point with which he or she disagrees. A liberal calls you a moron, insults your parentage, pulls out the F bomb. Dick Cheney isn’t someone with whom Maddow and Schultz disagree. He’s the devil, he has no heart, he’s a criminal and a drunk.
I listen to both conservative and liberal voices. 90 percent of the vitriol comes from the left, whether in the media or in person.
Re 30
You’re right in that some common ground must be found or the country will tear itself apart in partisan hate.
I’ve often written that the war in Iraq was ill considered. I’ve often written that the so called ‘war’ on terror is both a misnomer and an expensive and appalling attack on civil liberties. Bush had the opportunity to turn world sentiment into unified international action against terrorism immediately after 911. Probably the worst thing one could say about him was that he couldn’t bring himself to it, for whatever reason.
Tax cuts for the rich, single payer? On these you and I will likely never find common ground. Single payer is best summed up with ‘if you think health care expensive now, wait until it’s free.’ The rich earned their money and have paid their dues. They don’t owe society any more than you or I.
Was looking for Mark Centz on a site called Balloon Juice: Consistently Wrong Since 2002 … and found this:
What does it all mean?
Daddy Love,
Precisely. If it passes into law this boondoggle will be passed using a parliamentary process designed for something else. It will be a trick. And it will be soley the fault of Democrats. That’s why Republicans wouldn’t sign on. On this one you won’t be able to say Republicans had any hand whatever in making health care worse in this country.
Hey Brainiac, we agree that Politico is a dump for washed-up writers from the Washinton Post. We on the left have long ago concluded that the Post is a part of the right’s Mighty Wurlitzer. Kristol, Krauthammer,Gerson, Will, Applebaum, Broder, no liberals there. We’ve got Dionne, Robinson, and Klein (on web). Hiatt runs a shop that keeps the serious Villagers happy. Politico is no liberal weerbsite by any measure not found on Free Republic (you already have that link).
@29
Shh… Let’s keep them distracted.
23 L
On the topic of liars…
Most private economic forecasting forms and the CBO. You should get out more.
On the topic of liars-
Obama’s plan during the campaign was a 16-month pullout. Once he got in office he consulted with our military leders and amended the plabn to 22 months. I am guessing that you can read, but you don’t remember much.
Yeah, right. That timeline was revised also in the face of Republican opposition made it more difficult and time-consuming to relocate prisoners. The US govenment has acquired the Thomson Correctional Center (TCC) in Thomson, Illinois to which to relocate them (facility to be operated by the DoD), and when that is complete, Gitmo closes.
Yes, it’s the “corporate welfare for insurance companies” that you all were just insisting yesteerday would drive them all out of business.
The individual mandate is there to keep the private insurance companies in the game I(which you guys insisted on). It makes it broadens the pool to healthy individuals as well to make it economically feasible to eliminate “pre-existing condition” denials and capped benefits. How can you talk about health insurance AT ALL if you don’t know shit about it? Why should we listen? Convince us.
So your’e saying that in your ideal world, healthy people should go without health insurance until they get sick, and then get some. Guess what will drive private insurance out of business the fastest? You.
@34, Republicans used reconciliation to pass Medicare Part D, used reconciliation to pass a trillion dollar tax giveaway to billionaires. In fact, Republicans have used reconciliation 16 times since 1980, compared to 6 times by Democrats.
@34, Precisely what is reconciliation for if not to reconcile differences in bills passed by both the House and Senate?
Let’s see now–
You don’t think Obam-Mao and all the Demos up for re-election aren’t looking at this??
Friday, February 26, 2010
Obam-Mao is at a 44% overall approval rating for likely voters. That means in this 44%, nearly half is weaker approval…meaning they could flip-flop vs. only 13% weaker disapproval. There is no way this is good news for Obam-Mao. Reality KLOWNS.
The nuclear option on something this huge is political suicide…especially if the Dems try it and come up short on the votes!
That would be really ironic…and stupid.
To try to jam this thru…and then fail by a vote or 2!!
47,000 of our fellow American citizens died last year for lack of health care. 2,700,000 of our fellow American citizens lost their health insurance last year. And the health insurance industry posted record profits.
Republicans are so worried about the profits of rich men when instead Republicans should be worried about being able to enter the kingdom of God.
msnbc fact checks?????? lol, forever
oh, and the 800,000 florida seniors who dont get medicare cuts…ya think they’re jews from new york…just a wild guess
Speaking of a lying, cheating bastard…how about that gas-bag, tax-cheating, payola grabbin’ fool Charlie Rangel!
He is the head of the House Ways & Means that makes tax laws and lots of rules…for everyone but him!
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....irmanship/
Rangel should resign immediately for the good of America. If he doesn’t, add him to the group of “Kill Progressivism in America” posterkids…along with Pelosi, Reid, Obama, David “the Devil” Axelrod and Rahm-baby.
You KLOWNS really beat everything, you know that?!!
You lie & cheat for power, get it and f*ck it up immediately.
That’s why I call you KLOWNS!
Well @33Brainiac, your powers of translating and transliterating are too much for me! Yes, my comments appear on the 342-comment thread. Those words you have pulled out from thread do not appear under my chop, however. Dishonesty is your most powerful and only tool.
lost, you on the other hand are worth having a discussion with. Comment threads are inadequate to that task, sad to say. We disagree on those points, hope to engage in detail another time. Until then, gotta go.
Daddy Love @ 29
I’m a little surprised by this statement coming from you. The differences between the House and Senate bills are clearly more than just tax and budgeting issues. The differences on abortion alone, invalidate your premise.
34 L
Daddy Love,
I’ll give you credit–that’s a rare cogent and on-topic comment.
But you’re flat wrong. Reconciliation was designed and implemented specifically so that budgets can be adjusted without filbustering getting in the way of the people’s most vital business.
And it has been used again and again and again sonce it was originally implemented to pass health care reform measures. The Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) was a reconciliation measure. The R in COBRA (the program that makes it possible to temporarily retain insurance coverage in-between jobs or after losing a job) stands for, um, “reconciliation.” Ditto the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. Ditto the Medicare hospice benefit, Medicare benefits for HMOs, Medicare benefits for cancer screenings, added protections for patients in nursing homes, and changes to the Medicare payment system doctors and other health professionals.
So it’s not a “trick.” It’s the way it’s done.
And for damn sure they weren’t helping to make it one bit better. Nope, Republicans apparently LOVE coverage being denied due to pre-existing conditions. I think we’ll have plenty to talk about in 2010.
Olympic News
It has just been announced that Lindsey Vonn, who won the Olympic Gold Medal in the downhill race on Wednesday, has had her Gold Medal taken away and replaced by the Silver Medal.
The Olympic Committee, after reviewing the tapes, has determined that Barack Obama is going down hill faster than Vonn and has awarded the Gold Medal to Obama.
45 CF
It’s not “a difference on abortion” in some general sense. It’s on a difference about paying for abortion. Reconcliation material.
Face it. It’s passed, and passing, and your side gambled on stopping it and lost. Nut up.
Mark Centz, whatever that is, called me a whiny liar who is a dishonest tool.
* But Mark Centz whined and lied about Politico. He asserted or implied that it’s an adjunct of Drudge;
* Then he mischaracterized the Washington Post as part of the right-wing noise machine, a mischaracterization unlikely from anyone who isn’t lost in the left-wing echo chamber;
* Then he had an ellipsis fit that was apropos of nothing;
* Then he mischaracterized my unprompted correction of my assertion that “all” Newsweek examples of incivility, except for Lanny Davis’s, were from the GOP;
* Then he failed to examine Newsweek’s lie that Ken Starr was a Watergate prosecutor;
* Then he lied about my use of Balloon Juice. I did not state and did not imply that the comment about Obama molesting Roger Rabbit was Mark’s comment.
Oh, wait. I just lied. Obama did not molest Roger Rabbit.
47 D
If Obama is “going downhill fast,” Bush burned up during re-entry.
49 Br
I must admit I AM a little lost. Just to settle things, who IS on the definitive list of those who make up the right-wing noise machine?
Mark Centz is a whiny lying dishonest complete idiot who lowers himself or itself to ad hominem attack.
Discuss.
Yes, Daddy, you ARE a little lost. According to Mark Centz, whoever or whatever that is, the right-wing noise machine is anyone currently or formerly with the Washington Post.
Hope this helps.
53 B
But you said he was wrong. How do you know, and who is on the list? Actually, I don’t care how you know; just tell us all WHAT you know. IF you know.
Because otherwise, I’m pretty sure that you can’t tell credibly someone else that they’re wrong about who is.
52 B
Pot, meet kettle.
Hmmm…
Reconciliation is only used for budgetary matters. The Dummocrapts plan to use it for health care… something absolutely new.
Cliff’s Notes version: Katherine Graham + Ben Bradlee + Woodstein = Right-Wing Noise Machine.
Don’t know about the kettle to which you refer, but for pot, call Lee.
(Hope you understand that @52 is irony.)
I didn’t say he was wrong about the WaPo.
I said he mischaracterized.
But if he’s right, if the WaPo is part of the half-vast right-wing conspiracy, is it too late to tell big Dick Nixon and John Mitchell?
So if Mark’s right, so to speak, if the WaPo is a stealth right-wing noise machine, then everything’s upside-down and we’ve had our brains eaten by right-left vertigo.
Can’t find the entire ‘toon, (it’s in the current issue of Geov’s Eat the Statist State), but Tom Tomorrow is finally funny. He shows three dirty hippies (Rove, Cheney, and GWB) way back in the day, plotting to infiltrate the GOP and destroy it. Then he shows a right-wing hitman (Barack Obama) way back in the day, plotting to infiltrate the Crats and destroy them.
Good an explanation as any for the last ten years.
Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International. Feb. 17-18
“Please tell me if you personally favor or oppose creating a new insurance marketplace –- the Exchange — that allows people without health insurance to compare plans and buy insurance at competitive rates”
Favor 81%
Oppose 13%
“Please tell me if you personally favor or oppose requiring health insurance companies to cover anyone who applies, even if they have a pre-existing medical condition”
Favor 76%
Oppose 19%
“Please tell me if you personally favor or oppose requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help to those who can’t afford it”
Favor 59%
Oppose 36%
“Please tell me if you personally favor or oppose requiring most businesses to offer health insurance to their employees, with tax incentives for small business owners to do so”
Favor 75%
Oppose 20%
“Now please think about the proposals I just described to you. ALL of these proposals are included in Barack Obama’s health care reform plan. Having heard these details, what is your OVERALL opinion of Obama’s plan — do you favor it or oppose it?”
Favor 48%
Oppose 43%
(“before” it was F-40% O-49%)
Hmmmm…
57/59/60
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Daddy, you’re a dickhead.
Ask Mark why you “on the left long ago concluded that the Post is a part of the right’s Mighty Wurlitzer.”
Ask him to prove his conclusion, since he’s speaking for you, and if he can’t give proof, ask him why he lies.
Burden of proof belongs with you pots and kettles, since your boy Mark started it.
please tell me if you favor or oppose a government run healthcare plan where all the j bernie madoffs are going to have there filthy jew hands robbing it blind.
Newsweek and Princeton are part of the loon left’s Mighty Wurlitzer.
No surprises in their GIGO poll. For fairness and balance, go elsewhere. But not to MSNBC, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Big Obama, BO.
Surprised @64 didn’t refer to Daddy’s Jewsweek poll.
lost, very lost @ 21 et al:
OK, I only have the words of our Founding Fathers, the Constitution, treaties, and case law to rely on. Obviously, not enough to satisfy you.
Since you CLAIMED we are a nation founded on Christian principles why don’t you man up and show us where in our founding documents, the Constitution, treaties or case law where it is expressed we are a nation founded on Christian principles as you stated.
Have I missed anything? Oh.
Simply asserted that the left has concluded that it is, and here I suppose I did speak for the side. I did note the large number of wingnut columnists as opposed to the few actual liberal ones. But 38 years ago, the WP attacked Nixon, so that means it can never change sides, and Lincoln was a Republican so southerners will never be Republicans. And 38 years ago I wasn’t even a parent so I can’t be a grandparent today. Oh-oh.
Kaiser Family Foundation Kaiser Health Tracking Poll. Feb. 11-16, 2010
“Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Reforming the way health insurance works, for example, so that insurance companies can’t deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions, and can’t cap the benefits people get over their lifetime”
[DL note: I am giving you GOP fucks a break by grouping “somewhat important” into the second bucket.]
Extremely/Very important 76%
Somewhat/Not too Important 19%
“Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Providing financial help to lower and middle income Americans who don’t get insurance through their jobs to help them purchase coverage.”
Extremely/Very important 68%
Somewhat/Not too Important 25%
“Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Helping close the Medicare ‘doughnut hole’ or ‘coverage gap’ so seniors would no longer have a period where they are responsible for paying the full cost of their medicines.”
Extremely/Very important 71%
Somewhat/Not too Important 23%
“Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Expanding the existing Medicaid program to cover more low-income uninsured Americans.”
Extremely/Very important 56%
Somewhat/Not too Important 32%
“Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Creating a health insurance exchange or marketplace where small businesses and people who don’t get coverage through their jobs can shop for insurance and compare prices and benefits”
Extremely/Very important 71%
Somewhat/Not too Important 25%
Weird, huh?
Did I mention that Republicans oppose EVERY ONE of the measures I mentioned?
Weird, huh?
63. Wurlitzer Prize spews:
Yup. And fuck you very much.
If and when you feel smart enough and strong enough to engage on the issues, I’ll gladly bury you.
Until then, kiss my socialist ass.
Oh, gosh, was I being ad hominem? My goodness gracious me. It must have been one of those good issues-oriented teabaggers calling me a dickhead that just set my head all aflutter.
In the meantime, I have more polling data…
Re 67
Nope. You hate christianity and select the information you want to believe on that basis. I get it, but that doesn’t mean I have to care about it.
We’ve had this discussion before. You present one clause of one treaty and a letter from Jefferson (who excised the Bible to his taste and presumably to satisfy his extremely shaky moral leanings) to justify a whole world view.
I repeatedly tried to hammer into your closed mind a simple principle. ALL of the founding fathers were European, specifically English. All Europeans of that time lived in a culture steeped in the christian faith. It is inconceivable that these men would abandon all the background of their culture. It is against human nature.
You’re an evangelical atheist. Fine. You’re so uncomfortable in your childish beliefs that you have to try to eradicate those of others. Not fine.
Best of luck in trying to convert everyone to your atheism. In a christian nation it simply won’t work.
Ahhhhhhh, yes come November the American public will realize that it was the Democrats, AND only the Democrats who gave us real health care reform. And, the Nazi style DEATH CAMPS didn’t happen as the Reagan Republicans predicted.
Nothing to be afraid of but the Reagan Republican rhetoric.
Angry, unhinged, wrong and dumb is no way to win elections. Until the Republicans learn the lesson of 2006 they will remain in political exile.
Remember the last time the American public sent you to political Hell how long that lasted?
Answer: 1954 – 1994.
This time the Reagan Republicans screwed up even worse.
Enjoy your minority power status.
Naaaahhhhh, I hope you agonize every DAY. I can’t wait to hear conservatives pols, talking heads and voters continuously WHINE.
Because there’s nothing the American voter disdains more than whiners, cry babies, and losers.
CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Feb. 12-15, 2010. N=1,023 adults nationwide
“Now here are a few provisions that the U.S. House and Senate might consider. Please tell me whether you favor or oppose requiring all large and mid-sized businesses to provide health insurance for their employees.”
Favor 72%
Oppose 27%
“Please tell me whether you favor or oppose preventing health insurance companies from dropping coverage for people who become seriously ill.”
Favor 62%
Oppose 38%
“Please tell me whether you favor or oppose creating a public health insurance option administered by the federal government that would compete with plans offered by private companies.”
Favor 51%
Oppose 48%
It’s just a cavalcade of surprises. To Fox News viewers.
Yeah, that Thomas Jefferson. What a worthless dickhead HE was.
Uh, no. The R in COBRA stands for Reconciliation. From the link: in 1997, also in a budget reconciliation bill, it created the Children’s Health Insurance Program, known as CHIP, “Going back even close to 30 years, if you start say in 1982, the reconciliation bill that year added the hospice benefit, which is very important to people at the end of life,”
This post from TPM talks about St. Ronnie’s extensive use of the reconciliation process for his program of driving up the national debt. Entertaining reading. Sorry, Brainiac, no video or crayon drawings.
Re Daddy Love Polling
It isn’t awfully surprising that, asked whether other people ought to provide and pay for their health care a majority say yes. That doesn’t make it good policy.
Try to get into an auto accident and buy insurance after the fact to cover the damage.
Try buying life insurance for your deceased parent or spouse.
Is it all that amazing that insurance companies don’t want to cover pre-existing conditions?
Lost @ 73:
OK. No problem.
If and when you’re ready to enter the arena of debate and ideas you’re welcome to try and enlighten us.
The specific reason I challenged you to back up your statement was the same reason a prosecuting attorney for the People asks a witness for the defense a particular question.
Why?
Because the lawyer already knows the answer and the answer will make the defendants case crumble.
Your refusal to answer exemplifies a non-factual argument crumbling.
Thanks for playing. Why don’t you go and see what Sarah Palin is tweeting about today.
One parting name for you to investigate.
Ben Franklin.
Re 74
“Angry, unhinged, wrong and dumb is no way to win elections.”
But GBS, this is the only way Obama won! It’s the only way a manipulative lying thing like him could win.
GBS,
You’re really a foolish person. You don’t want to see something, so you won’t. Put it in front of your eyes, you cover them. Tell it to and you cover your ears. No hope for close minded people like you, particularly when they’ve convinced themselves that they are open minded.
Have a nice evening.
Re 76
Thomas Jefferson was in many ways brilliant. He was an amazing writer. He was an enlightened man.
But he did seduce (or considering the unequal relationship, rape) at least one underage slave by whom he had children he wouldn’t acknowledge.
He did run his finances in a way to give drunken sailors a bad name. (Come to think of it, with your admiration for Obama that probably comes accross as a compliment.)
I’m not going off on the man, but if GBS wants to use him as the sole voice of what the founders meant by “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” his character does come into question. Not to mention the fact that he had no part in the wording of this part of the Constitution.
47. dutch spews:
You forgot 1 other key point.
Obam-Mao has obliterated the World Record in the Downhill! In fact, he appears to have actually become the first downhiller to break the Sound barrier!
Listen………..BOOM!…Obam-Mao is back on the slippery slope of Socialism.
GBS, @74, bad idea to do a census on chickens unborn. But Ben Franklin is a good name to invoke on this issue. @lost, the framers were a bunch of christians as they understood the term, but their understanding might be different than many modern christians understand the term. And they may not have seen a conflict with enlightenment principles and their faith. The constitution has more to do with the former than the latter, but that’s my opinion. Care to change my mind? Point the way.
In general-
If I were a leftist I’d be mad about now. Obama had the executive and both houses of Congress.
What sweeping reforms did he pass? Well, yeah. Do we have single payer health care? Not really. Did he do anything of note with the power he had.
Oh well, maybe in another half century you guys will get another shot at it.
56. Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:
Puddy,
Let the KLOWNS pass it…although I sense it is doubtful. Future Legislature’s can decline to fund it. It will drop like a ton of BS!!
Like I’ve been saying…these KLOWNS are blind to the fact that if they pass it, they will lose control of the House & Senate…if not in 2010, surely by 2012.
This bill will require taxes…with no benefits for years. The money will be set aside.
How about that Daddy Love?
Do you really think the Dems will control both Houses of Congress in 2012??
Puddy–
See the Polls Daddy Love is posting.
Bottom of the list in terms of past performance. That means to IGNORE them.
78 L
It’s not surprising. But guess what? In a democracy, the overwhelming opinion of the people sometimes becomes law, even when the preternaturally wise Republicans do not agree.
However, I would ask without a hope in hell of any reasonable respsonse where in the questions I quoted it ever asked “whether other people ought to provide and pay for their health care?” Yeah, I’m not holding my breath.
In other news, we now know that large majorities approve of the most important measure in the current health care reform (HCR) legislation. Now, I understand that you don’t agree with these large majorities, but as a Republican, you should be used to that.
What constitutes “good policy” is arguable, although I would argue that not a single GOP policy suggestion, on the rare occasions when they have one, qualifies. What the people want done is not.
Hey, I have an idea: why don’t you put forward GOP ppolicy suggestions, and we can debate their merits?
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Will House Democrats walk the Plank for Obam-Mao? Good summary–
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....tion-year/
This could get reaaaaaaal ugly.
And in the end, even if it passes, future Legislatures will not fund it.
What a waste of time when our 100% focus should be on empower the private sector to create meaningful jobs.
So Daddy Love–
What if future Congress’s decide not to fund Obam-MaoCare??
86 Cyn
I’ll discuss this on its merits even though I am sure you won’t.
I do. although I do think that the balance in both Houses of Congress will shift toward the Republcans. My reason? the equilibrium point of our Congress is quite close to even. The surges of 2006 and 2008 nwere anomalous based on widespread (and apparently unrecognized by the GOP) dissatisfaction with Bush executive and GOP Congressional governance. IOW, I think that in 2010 the Democrats will lose seats, but unless the GOP wins really large majorities I do not believe that this represents anything other than a return to the more normal equilibrium after huge swells in the Dem direction in the lat two cycles.
But the ARRA (“stimulus” act) was constructed to create more jobs this year than last. By election day, the landscape will look very different, and I hope you choke on it (in the best way possible).
90 Cyn
Yeah, just like “future Congresses” have killed Social Security.
Wow, you guys are about to eat a huge shit sandwich. Fun, huh?
Funny how few the “meaningful jobs” the private sector create in the absence of demand.
Also funny, but totally understandable, how Cynical has no grasp of basic economics.
Re 88
“However, I would ask without a hope in hell of any reasonable respsonse where in the questions I quoted it ever asked “whether other people ought to provide and pay for their health care?”
I can answer this with your own post.
““Please tell me whether you favor or oppose preventing health insurance companies from dropping coverage for people who become seriously ill.”
The person getting insurance with a pre-existing condiotion or exceeding the contractual terms of their insurances stays on insurance? Very well, someone other than the insured is paying for this, the rest of the insurance pool.
“Please tell me whether you favor or oppose requiring all large and mid-sized businesses to provide health insurance for their employees.”
The employer mandated to provide a benefit for the employee? In this case your many headed want their employer to pay for their health care.
““Please tell me how important it is that the following be passed into law: Providing financial help to lower and middle income Americans who don’t get insurance through their jobs to help them purchase coverage.”
So, other taxpayers and the employer should pay for their health care?
Yes, if a majority says it’s okay to steal from the minority it is bad policy. And yes, leaders must sometimes do what doesn’t play well out of concerns about good policy or national need.
@86 Mr Cynical, I’ve refuted that assertion. Try again with something fresh and correct. As for 2010 and 2012, counting chickens prior to hatching is a proverbial bad idea. If in 2002 I had made a bet about and man of color with the middle name Hussein being lawfully elected by the citizens of the United States without any metaphorical guns our our heads I would be a rich, rich man today. This country is down on democrats until they’re reminded that the alternative is loon-crazy Republicans. Then the attitude changes. And in the meantime, things change. Clinton looked shaky after the 94 elections, and he did ok in 96. Dubya was looking pretty shaky in the polls until that day in September after having brushed off warnings about the danger, then despite pulling his Sir Robin routine on that day his support went over 90%, which means a lot of my fellow socialists put aside their differences with the man because they felt it was the right thing to do. Lot of good it did. So who knows what the future brings, maybe you’ll be enthusiastically cheering President Hope yourself in two years time. Nah (marks unborn chicken as No).
@94 lost-
I’ve never had a fire at my home. I’ve had the police to my home twice in the 15 years here, and each time the result was a ten minute visit to gather info for a report. I’ve paid taxes to support their work, happily, because if I need them I don’t want to have to decide which fire or police service is best suited for my needs after consulting with Consumer Reports in an emergency. I’m very pleased that my home is serviced with socialized power and water, the result of civic leaders with vision to find ways to provide them at low cost to their fellow citizens and those yet unborn.
I have friends who worked for decades at firms where both they and their employers paid for medical insurance your years without their ever needing it, they were laid off, and now they will never see a dime of benefit from that investment that they have paid in advance for. We pay up to twice per capita what citizens of other economically advanced countries pay for health care and are far less served for that investment. Don’t like socialized health care? Ok, fine, tell me about this libertarian utopia where there are no socialized police, water, or fire departments. I’m listening.
Hey Kids,
Just read the thread. After careful and objective deliberation and consultation, I have come to the conclusion that the lefties kicked the crap out of our dear trolls here. DL’s polling numbers on specific issues show where the nation is, at heart, before the Republican sound byte machine kicks into gear. The debate between GBS and lost continues. lost lost, yet again. Actually, I’d like to see lost respond to Mark Centz’s comment at 84. The answer, lost, may be far more nuanced than you want to believe. Cynny just looks like a child, as always–he even begs for Puddy to come team up with his juvenile bleatings. How fast is Obama going downhill, Cynny? Actually, I think a resurgence is starting. He’s had a year (imagine that, just a year) to learn the job, and he has started to recognize that trying to get naysayers on board from your party is pointless. Now, your asses are about ready to get blistered. Well done, my friends on the left.
94 L
It’s really weird how ignorant you are about the democratic process. I didn’t agree with everything that happened under Bush or Reagan, but whatever. Majorities DO rule.
I don’t give a fuck what your exquisitely attenuated antennae tell you about measures passed by the Congress: they are fucking law, and if you want to oppose them by violating the law you will go to fucking jail. Hope that works well for you.
I get that you have ideological arguments with the health care legislation. So what? Please try to understand that NOBODY THE FUCK CARES.
When you can elect representatives, we can talk. After we block your every initiative. Fun, huh?
Clearly, we should never ask anyone who does not currently have a home that is on fire to pay for fire departments.
99
And, unless you are personally in cardiac arrest, why should we have a medical emergency response system? Who needs 911, after all?
In general-
Lost in narcissism @ 85
“If I were a leftist I’d be mad about now.”
Many leftists are indeed disappointed, but not mad. A significant portion of the “left” was exhorting the Democrats to kill the bill (Dean, Howard, which see). It is obvious you haven’t a fucking clue about what goes on in lefty circles.
Many on the “left” knew O. to be the centrist he has turned out to be. It’s no big surprise.
On the other hand, I seem to have missed your anguished posts decrying Reagan and the Bushies (both of the fuckers) for not overturning Roe v. Wade. You could direct me to proof to the contrary, but right now, I’m fairly confident you let it pass, because after all, your team was running things and you’re a good little boy who toes the party line.
“If I were a leftist I’d be mad about now.”
Well, you are not a leftist, so who cares?
I am a leftist, and I am overjoyed to watch useful social legislation like HCR being forced inch by incredible inch down lying, plutocratic, hypocritical GOP throats.
But that’s just me.
@102 PtbaA, he could become a leftist, so don’t be mean. Be reasonable, reason works with some folks not yet in our camp, and frightens and confuses the rest of them. Reason is on our side after all.
@95 “maybe you’ll be enthusiastically cheering President Hope yourself in two years time. Nah (marks unborn chicken as No)”
Well, it’s not like the KLOWN doesn’t know how to cheer.
“Ok, fine, tell me about this libertarian utopia where there are no socialized police, water, or fire departments”
Well this is quite easy, actually. Rich communities will band together (yes, socialist behavior, but I digress) and hire a police department. They will not be stupid and they will not “contract it out” to the low bidder. There will be cronyism, favoritism, bribery, and insider behavior. This is a sane rational policy adopted by folks who have the resources to pay.
Other communities? There may be gangs of “police” offering protection services, but it will not be a free market utopia. Most likely we can charitably characterize it as gangsterism as the withering of the state (yes, also a Marxist wet dream)begs the question of sovereignty and the monopoly of force is unleashed to the mercies of the “free market”.
You know, the standard conversation stopper in the old days was when some fucking fascist jerk would shake his lily white wattles, screw up his eyes, elevate his blood pressure, get red in the face, and emit the spittle flecked cry, “Why don’t you just move to Russia you fucking hippie freak?”.
So why don’t our current wingnut compatriots pull up stakes, go Galt, and move to Somalia? The answer is simple. There is too much money to be made suckling off the teat of the taxpayer and the web of wingnut welfare known as “movement conservatism”.
LMFAO @ people who compare somalia to American Libertarians.
Thats like saying the average democrat is murdering, thieving , lazy socialist…oh, wait..
@104: If there was any way to verify your assertion, I’d be willing to lay very very long odds against that ever happening.
Keep up the good fight.
@107: “Thats like saying the average democrat is murdering, thieving , lazy socialist…oh, wait..”
Thus proving my point. Thank you very much, anonymous fascist!
I just want to remind everyone that Saint Ronnie launched his 1980 presidential campaign by giving a “states rights” speech at the Neshoba County Fair in Philadelphia, Mississippi, where three civil rights workers were murdered by Ku Klux Klansmen in 1964.
The autopsy report, finally released in 2000, revealed the two white civil rights workers were each shot once through the heart, but the body of James Chaney, the black civil rights worker, showed clear evidence of torture:
“The report stated Chaney had a left arm broken in one place, a right arm broken in two places, ‘a marked disruption’ of the left elbow joint and may also have suffered trauma to the groin area. A pathologist who examined the bodies … noted Chaney also had a broken jaw and a crushed right shoulder ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....er_murders
Today, Edgar Ray Killen, the convicted ringleader of the murders, sued the FBI and the state of Mississippi for damages. Killen’s suit complains the FBI paid a mobster who found out where the bodies were buried by sticking a gun into a Klansman’s mouth.
Hmmmm … maybe J. Edgar Hoover should have sent one of his homosexual buddies to question the guy instead?
There’s a lot I don’t know about Somalia. That said, as I undestand it, there is only a very weak central government, few to no taxes and/or regulations, and the citizens there are free to starve or to scratch and claw their way to economic viability, whether legal or otherwise. As such, it does seem like a libertarian paradise.
GOP Senator To Unemployed: Go To Hell
Former baseball player and Republican U.S. Senator Jim Bunning today used senatorial privilege to block a bill extending unemployment benefits:
“The House passed the 30-day extension for the programs on Thursday, leaving Bunning as the sole obstacle to the measure’s passage. He has has vowed to fight the extensions as long as they add to the deficit.”
Consequently, “1.1 million workers whose benefits expire after this Sunday … may be left without vital financial resources for weeks or even months[.]”
http://www.dailyfinance.com/st...../19375384/
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Someone please look up whether Bunning blocked Bush’s tax cuts for the rich because they added to the deficits. I’ll bet he didn’t.
Why would any unemployed worker vote Republican? That’s like shooting your own balls off.
@85 “If I were a leftist I’d be mad about now.”
I’m not a leftist, I’m a moderate capitalist, but I’m madder than hell at Republican obstructionists who would rather play politics than help suffering Americans.
I used to be a ticket-splitter, but I’ll never vote for any Republican again. Ever.
@94 I would agree people should pay for their own health care when this country can guarantee a job to everyone who wants one, but until then, society owes the necessities of life (including health care) to those who are unemployed through no fault of their own.
According to wingnut philosophy, workers deserve to be provided for only when there’s work for them to do. If this were applied to racehorses, a horse would be fed only on the days he races, and the rest of the time he would be tied up and left to starve in the barn.
Actually, when you get right down to it, cheap labor conservatives treat their racehorses better than their workers. So why should anyone work for them? Make them do the work themselves.
proud leftist, it doesnt bother you that jews skim off the top of everything is this country, and with government run healthcare they’re going to skim off one sixth of the economy?
111. Daddy Love spews:
There’s a lot I don’t know about Somalia.
well, you got that right….
manofbile @116: White guys are already doing it, so why shouldn’t Jews get in on it? Why should white guys have a monopoly on healthcare skimming?
@117 Somalia is what America will look like if wingnuts get their way. We won’t need police because everybody will have AK-47s and rocket launchers. We won’t need taxes because there won’t be any government. The only thing you’ll have to pay is tribute to whichever warlord currently controls your neighborhood.
@119…LMFAO – nice imagination you have.
did you borrow your scare tactics from the globull worming crowd?
@118
manofbile @116: White guys are already doing it, so why shouldn’t Jews get in on it? Why should white guys have a monopoly on healthcare skimming?
rog, dont discriminate against black guys either. look at charlie rangel and william jefferson. not to mention all the shakedowns by jesse jackson either.
119
As Bruce Cockburn sang during our tawdry Nicaraguan intervention of the Reagan years,
“If I had a rocket launcher,
Some sonofabitch would die.”
You have a point, @manoftruth? That ethnics do things that non-ethnics, I mean white, people do not do? People like Ken Lay? Duke Cunningham? Bob Taft? Oh, never mind.
Graft and corruption are colorblind, unlike your own sorry self.
Are Big Banks Too Big?
Read this article before you decide.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/.....-big-banks
Lost @72 et al.: What you don’t understand is that our Founding Fathers also came from a European culture that was rent asunder by centuries of religious warfare; and, they also understood the necessity, in order to prevent that from happening in the new nation they were creating, of establishing an absolute wall between religion and state.
Tax Cuts For The Rich, Or For Consumers?
Anyone who thinks the U.S. needs to cut taxes on the wealthy to encourage more capital investment should read this article. Excerpt:
“[I]nsufficient demand was the key to Japan’s lost decade. Textbook economic theory suggests that a country with too much savings should export that capital, essentially lending money to foreigners to buy the goods and services that cannot be sold in the home market. … But Japan was so massive a commercial power that the rest of the world could not absorb the requisite volume of funds …[;] half of the capital stayed pooled up inside Japan, where the corresponding lack of demand undermined industrial output, prices, and interest rates. The country was in danger of succumbing to a full-scale depression.
“A WORLD AWASH IN CAPITAL
“The same pattern of excess savings … characterizes the world today. … These surplus savings posed the same threat to the world that they had previously represented for Japan: if not neutralized by countervailing demand from somewhere, they would produce intense deflationary momentum and a prolonged recession.”
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/.....ing-crises
Roger Rabbit Commentary: In other words, it’s demand, not capital the U.S. and global economies have too little of; or, put another way, there’s too much capital chasing too little demand. So why make that problem worse with tax cuts targeted at the wealthy which are intended to boost capital formation? That’s exactly the wrong thing to do. Any tax relief should be targeted at lower-income taxpayers and aimed at boosting demand and consumption, in order to put idle capital to work and create jobs. Creating more idle capital won’t create any jobs.
Under the laissez faire policies of the Bush administration, meaningful inspection of slaughterhouses and food processing plants virtually ceased, we had a record number of tainted food cases, and America’s food supply became less safe than at any time in the last 100 years.
The Republican “solution” to this problem is restricting your right to sue companies whose contaminated food sickens or kills your family.
Why would anyone vote Republican?
Fact checks on healthcare by liberals????
hahahahahhhhahhahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Hell they can’t even get the weather right. You may as well have a carpenter perform your next heart bypass.
The only facts that came from the healthcare summit is that the dems are full of shit. Of course most real Americans have already figured that one out. The summit I guees was for the “Rahm Emanuel your a retard” crowd.
@56 “Reconciliation is only used for budgetary matters. The Dummocrapts plan to use it for health care… something absolutely new.”
It’s time for Roger to educate Puddinghead:
“Republicans have used the ‘nuclear option’ 16 times since it was first introduced during former President Reagan’s term in office in 1980. Democrats have used it just six times. Former President George W. Bush’s 2001 tax cut was passed using the ‘nuclear option.'”
http://www.walletpop.com/blog/.....on-likely/
“Under the original design of the Budget Act, reconciliation had a fairly narrow purpose. It was expected to be … directed primarily at spending and revenue legislation acted on between the adoption of the first and second budget resolutions. But Congress has used the procedure to enact far-reaching omnibus budget bills, first in 1981. Since 1980, 17 of 23 reconciliation bills have been signed into law by Republican presidents …. The 1986 Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (COBRA) contained some healthcare type reforms. … During the administration of President George W. Bush, Congress used reconciliation to enact three major tax cuts, each of which substantially increased the deficit. … Efforts to use reconciliation to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling failed.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R....._Congress)
Roger Rabbit Commentary: So you see, Putz, reconciliation has been used mostly by Republicans, and for things besides budgetary matters. So here’s how it’s gonna work this time: What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.
The Facts About Public Support For Health Reform
“So are Americans ready for a health bill? When one first looks at the poll released Tuesday by the Kaiser Family Foundation, one might answer no. The poll showed that the 43% of those polled were in favor of the bill and 43% were against. But when you start looking at key aspects of health reform legislation you see a very different story:
“76% support reforming the way health insurance works; even 64% of Republicans can agree on that.
“72% support tax cuts for small businesses; even 67% of Republicans can agree on that
“71% support a health insurance exchange/marketplace; even 67% of Republicans can agree on that
“71% support help in closing the Medicare “doughnut hole;” even 66% of Republicans can agree on that
“70% support expanded high-risk insurance pools; even 61% of Republicans can agree on that
“Only one major provision did not get a majority of Republican support. While 68% of the poll respondents supported financial help for low and middle income Americans, only 48% of Republicans supported that aspect of the bill. Democrats support this provision by 88% and independents support it by 64%.
“Clearly, when all the political noise is erased and the public is asked about key provisions of the health care reform legislation, there is majority support for most of these provisions.”
http://www.walletpop.com/blog/.....on-likely/
Roger Rabbit Commentary: When Republicans try to tell you Americans don’t support health reform, they’re full of shit. Of course people don’t support “death panels.” You’ll get the same poll results by asking the public if they support Nazi concentration camps. But all that means is the public doesn’t support Republican bullshit about health reform.
Hmmm… Tax cut… A budgetary item. Hey Dumb Bunny… Puddy wrote the reconciliation issue is only used for budget items… Health Care is not a line item in the federal budget, therefor not a budgeting issue… It’s a political grenade that adds to the deficit. Your side still doesn’t count the $250,000,000,000 in a separate Stabenow bill to pay off the AMA for the Medicare cuts.
As the Dos Equus commercial should say when your Pellets are seen… “Stay Stupid My Friend”.
Daddy Love…
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 41% of voters favor the proposed health care plan, while 56% oppose it. Those figures include 45% who strongly oppose the plan and just 23% who strongly favor it.
Another in a long line of stupid stupid comments…
There are aspects of health care reform everyone can agree to Dumb Bunny. The bill as written isn’t something many people agree with. The $3500 fine is still in the house bill dumb bunny. The $750 fine is still in the senate bill dumb bunny. The abortion coverage is in the senate bill dumb bunny. The house bill allows illegal aliens to use the new health care “exchange” and does not require any further special verification whatsoever to keep illegal aliens out of the other parts of the house bill proposed federal health care system. To remind the dumb bunny of this fact read these comments fool…
AP November 2009 – “Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-N.Y.) indicated that the House will have to vote on a bill that allows illegal aliens to use the new health care “exchange” and that does not require verification to keep illegal aliens out of the other parts of the proposed new federal health care system.”
“He listened to us. We listened to him.”
“We made it very clear that 20 votes in the Hispanic Caucus will be supportive of the current language in the House version.”
“If the language changes, I guess then you’re going to have 20 votes that will change.”
“I think that he got our message.” – Nydia Velazquez, Chairwoman, Congressional Hispanic Caucus.
The Cornhusker Compromise and the Louisiana Purchase are now available to all states. Yet no one has calculated these additional costs to the “original” CBO estimates and the $250 Billion payoff in the other bill Dumb Bunny.
Actual Knowledge… This is what separates the wheat from the chaff Dumb Bunny. BTW, you are well known as the chaff!
Just another in the long line of Dumb Bunny Chaff on HA.
Of course BlueJohn will forget these PuddyComments the next time he attacks Puddy over commentary.
@103 Daddy sez “I am a leftist!”
Yea, well, as I recall when contract workers were being canned in droves by Microsoft, Daddy refused to go out and stand with them on the picket lines. On the one side was that big, fat paycheck, on the other solidarity with his fellow workers, and Daddy chose – surprise! – the lifestyle. In fact, as I recall his reaction was, “They aren’t my co-workers!” Maybe an armchair leftist, Daddy? Toooooooo much!
re 125
I appreciate the clarification, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough.
Of course separation of church and state is a good idea. Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, people who worship space aliens and even atheists should be allowed to practice their religion (yes atheism is a highly evangelical faith, just happens to a be a nihilistic one) in peace and without government interference.
The only quibble I have with you and other reasonable people on this issue is the word ‘absolute.’
GBS would like to believe I advocate an official Christian religion in the US, with the president serving as the official head of it. Far from it. I just think that for many Americans faith is an integral part of decision making, judgement, and the general makeup of their character. And I don’t think that this is somehow sinister, as it’s been painted by the press in the past couple of election cycles. Call me naive, but most people of faith use that faith to try to make better and more humaane decisions, to lead a better life. I don’t happen to find this sinister. Are there extremists? Sure, 9-11 and the McVeigh show that. But these don’t represent the mainline of their respective religions.
Re Daddy Love and GBS
As with GBS you default to ‘if you don’t agree with me you’re a fucking moron.’ I’ve met many progressives with whom an intelligent conversation about the different approaches to politics, economics and faith can be had. It’s the nominally open minded partisan of either end of the political spectrum with a mental outlook triple barred and heavily shuttered with whom this conversation is impossible, like the two of you. You talk about nuance, but miss it unless the nuance colors the world in a palette pleasing to your eye. Well, good luck with that.
Proud Leftist
You veer from violently vitriolic to moderately reasonable. Is it a coffee thing? A beer too many? I don’t get it. Sometimes you can discuss a question without making it personal. Sometimes you join Daddy Love and the rest in the ‘all republicans are evil goat fuckers who married their sisters’ refrain.
Good luck to you as well.
It’s Saturday and I have other things to do. Have a great weekend.
lost: “You veer from violently vitriolic to moderately reasonable.”
I just try to match the tone of whatever I’m responding to. And, then, sometimes the vitriol is a response to some nonsense pulled by congressional Republicans or some such thing. Despite my partisanship, I actually would like a better, more rational Republican Party. I think the nation is essentially a moderate, centrist nation, and we do best with a healthy two-party system. I don’t think a two-party system in which the sole goal of the minority party is to score political points on the other party, regardless of national interests, is healthy.
@123
Graft and corruption are colorblind, unlike your own sorry self.
mark, answer one question for me. if you feel i’m not color blind, do you also feel as a country we are colorblind? for example, every single tv ad is integrated, (except those commercials for home alarms, where they only show white guys breaking in). do you think we’re colorblind because those ads are integrated, or, do you think we are very color concious since people sat down and purposely looked at color to integrate those ads?
138. proud leftist spews:
His Dad taught him that. His Dad is a Lutheran preacher. According to PL’s Dad, that’s what Jesus would do!
Good afternoon, Cynny. Best wishes to you, too.
We still haven’t seen one Republican congressmember give up their ‘gubmint’ health care.
Why is that?
Freddy,
Why didn’t Dummocrapts design their health care plan so they would gladly give up their ‘gubmint’ Cadillac plan and join the common folk?
@131 Roger Rabbit Commentary: When Republicans try to tell you Americans don’t support health reform
Actually, dumb bunny, the public will tell you they don’t support health care reform as it’s being proposed, and your characterization is just plain idiotic. That’s hardly a surprise, though.
Just to illustrate how clueless you and daddy loveless are, the data daddy cited @75 was from this poll:
http://politicalticker.blogs.c.....BUvKy9vx7z
However, Daddy, not the sharpest of knives, failed to include this critical element of the poll:
48% wanted to start work on new legislation
25% wanted to stop work on reform altogether
25% wanted to proceed with the current legislation
And here’s a Zogby poll that confirms the result above with some additionl detail:
Of the more than 2,500 people surveyed from Jan. 29 to Feb. 1, 57 percent agreed with a statement that Congress should start over — which is exactly what Republicans are demanding and what President Barack Obama insists he will not do.
Moreover, 56.4 percent of people indicated they would prefer Congress to tackle healthcare reform on a step-by-step basis, not take the comprehensive approach as embodied in the legislation that passed the House and Senate last year but has stalled fore the past month.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-.....-poll-says
Finally, dumb bunny, if you’d taken the time to actually read the Kaiser survey you cited you would have found this summary:
22% put health care reform on hold
19% stop work on health care reform this year
20% pull out a few key provisions where there is broad agreement and pass those
32% move soon to pass the current legislation
that shows that less than a third of those polled are happy with the legislation Dems are trying to ram through.
notice how Daddy Hate conveniently ignores post #136…..
@137 Is that complete idiot Lost still at it?
Wow…after all the incredibly stupid things you have written you are still spewing the same narrow and simple minded views…you argue lioke a third grader (caveat: to any third graders on here…..sorry for the comparison).
Tell us again how health insurance is like car insurance. hahahha. You are so damn stupid.
Every major industrialized country in the world has figured out that health insurance is NOTHING like car insurance….yet you still put out the same simple minded crap…
What
a
complete
moron!
hhmmm…
Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams decides to have operation in the US rather than in Canada
does that tell you anything about Canadian soclialized health care? hmm….
The operative passage in your diatribe accentuates what I, and our Founding Fathers have been saying all along “WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.”
If you don’t have a “wall of separation between Church and State” then you will eventually have government interference in something deeply personal and opinion based, but not factual.
As I said before, one of the reasons the Founding Fathers wanted government to be neutral regarding religion is because government dabbling in opinions interferences with free thinking people and thus a threat to democracy itself.
Bull shit. I never said you took that position, you’re projecting not me. This is a classical Red Herring designed to distract from the actual topic of discussion.
YOU are the one who said this nation was founded on Christian principles.
I said it was not. I brought forward as evidence to support my position; the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Constitution itself, the articulated positions of the first three sitting presidents of the USA, treaties, senate votes, historical documents cited by SCOTUS in deciding case law, Thomas Paine’s writings, Ben Franklin, all the signers to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the fact the first Continental Congress thought so little of Christmas that they worked on Christmas Day, that Christmas wasn’t even declared a federal holiday until 70 years passed the founding of our nation when the European Christians started migrating to America bringing with them their political traditions that our Founding Fathers sought to escape, and case law from every level of the court system in the land. All items supporting my position.
I challenged you to support your position with similar proof and your response was, and I quote, “Nope.”
Wow! Such stimulating intellectual debate. You boil your whole argument down to pure conjecture that faith being intertwined with thinking and judgment somehow makes the founding principles of this nation Christian. Without regard to Men like Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, and many others who were either Deist, Naturalists, Atheists, or Christians with the understanding that religious bigotry in Europe shaped their decisions to have this new nation’s government be religiously neutral.
They enshrined those principles in our Founding documents. Yet you want to quote Chief Justice Rhienquist as the authority on such matters.
Is it any wonder to you that people think you’re intellectually stunted or better yet, dishonest in the face of a mountain of evidence against you?
No 9/11 and McVeigh don’t demonstrate mainline anything, they are the epitome of Islamic extremism and radical right-wing ideology that the Dept of Homeland Security warned us about last year.
What is evident, is the use of propaganda by talking heads like Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and politicians like Reagan, Gingrich, Bush, Cheney, Bohner, McConnell and to create fear within the ranks of their base with “Moral Majority” “Religious Right” “WAR ON CHRISTMAS” charades.
There is no war on Christmas. Only the push back on people who advocate positions that violate our traditional American values of government neutrality in religious and public matters – like prayer in public schools for instance.
The strategy of your using the propaganda tool that “your opponent is assaulting on your religious beliefs” is what justified in the minds of the 9/11 terrorists that flying airplanes into the WTC, Pentagon, and Shanksville, PA was correct, noble and righteous. The Crusades, Inquisition, Catholic Church torturing those who thought the world was round, and even the revenge by Christians against Jews after Passion Plays in Europe all prey on deeply held religious beliefs that thier belief system is under assult.
It’s these extremist views that leaders have used all throughout history to wrought untold amounts of human suffering that serves as the nexus behind the Separation of Church and state principle.
You might think there’s nothing sinister about what the conservatives are doing in the public debate regarding religion, but Tea Partiers who attend events with guns strapped and signs saying “Water the Tree of Liberty” with images of President Obama are direct violent threats against President, and the precise outcome is known by those or promulgate this kind of hysteria.
I give you Fox News and the whole “Tiller the Baby Killer” line of messaging that drove a radical religious extremists to commit premeditated murder in a Church.
But I digress; you wanna try again and prove your assertion with some historical proof that our nation was formed on Christian principles?
Or do you just wanna bitch at Liberals?
Republicans/Conservatives the party of No “good” ideas.
Unless, Lost, or someone else wants to take a crack at proving me wrong in the arena of public discourse, I’ll simply rest my case that America was not, IN ANY SENSE formed of the Christian religion.
Thanks for playing.
NEXT!!