Deuteronomy 19:21
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Discuss. (Possibly within the context of yesterday’s political violence in Arizona.)
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Poor choice for today.
Another prophet, Martin Luther King, said …
“an eye for an eye, pretty soon leaves everyone blind.”
The Torah, without wisdom, is as useless as any tool.
I am that I am.
Arizona Shooting Claims Life Of 9-Year-Old Girl Born On 9/11
That should suffice.
Are the words nigger, kike, honkey or fag allowed here? Do these words do harm themselves?
Does calling Obama a communist do harm? Does invoking the second amendment in the name of health care so harm?
Why did the Republicans edit the text of the Constitution when they read it this week? Why is Wagner shunned in Israel? Why is the swastika banned from public view in Germany? Why do many of us recoil at the stars and bars or the sight of a noose hanging from a tree?
How can any person claim to be a good person and say the things Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly say every day?
How can any of the trolls here not feel shame today?
One can feel the utter sadness and disappointment in your words, SJ, and I share them.
Does someone have multiple personality disorder here? Three different handles for the same person?
It’s amazing what’s found in the Torah!
@5
Three? Who are you talking about?
A friend of mine wrote:
This friend is a good person. I fear her reaction. Her response is an emotional one. In our Haggadah we have a quote from Martin Luther King, “An eye for an eye, ma tooth for a tooth; pretty soon everyone is blind and toothless.”
The same kind of government that would put a Beck away, would (and has) deprived Liu Xiaobo of his free speech.
I do not want the FBI shutting Glenn Beck away. What I do want is leaders who so value democracy that they can teach us all to treat nazis, birthers, jihadis, religious fanatics, as repugnant.
As a free person, living in a free country, Beck can call President Obama a nigger or I can call John McCain a capo. But if Beck or I do that the public outrage would, and should, shun our words from public discourse.
Where is the outrage on the right? Why doesn’t McCain call on Fox to take Beck off the air? Are there still moral people on the right?
Puddy,
What is amazing is the willingness of religious bigots to use the Torah, the Qran, or the Sermon on the Mount as shields and swords.
One of the most evil paintings I have ever seen is in a military chapel in Monterey. It shows Columbus’ landing. His foot is on the head of a heathen as he raises his cross shaped sword to his God.
@7 LS
I think Richard may be a Roman Catholic?
@10
My interpretation was, since only you (God/SJ) and I had commented at that point – that he was conflating us, which is, um, odd.
“Who will rid me of this troublesome priest”
– Henry II
As Goldy so aptly pointed out yesterday, assassination can be a very effective political tool. This is particularly true when wrapped in the context of religious belief. If God is with us, who can be against us?
All I’d say in this whole thing is that if the situation was reversed — if a Republican Tea Party US Representative was attacked by a deranged left-winger — we’d have them comparing it to Lexington and Concord as a “shot heard round the world” (or something similar), and promising to ramp up the political violence.
The next few days — particularly Monday — will be telling. If Tea Party apologists try to lay this at the feet of liberals, with absolutely no self-examination whatsoever, they will prove themselves to be absolutely irredeemable and completely uninterested in the long-term survival of the country.
(Case in point: Erick Erickson’s swill of an apologist letter, at http://www.redstate.com/erick/.....ers-begin/.)
People who act upon fear and loathing are controlled by fear and loathing. There is really nothing that can be done with them — but I think there is something that can be done about the MSM authorized hate talkers.
They need a deterrent — a legal one would work.
Lib Sci
Anyone mistaking SJ for God is taking the name of God in vain.
Of course, amongst violations of the Ten Commandments, that is the most common.
I am that I am
As much as Goldy is trying to politicize this incident, this is nothing more than a child who is a victim of a mental illness who needs treatment by a psychologist.
13. demo kid spews:
All I’d say in this whole thing is that if the situation was reversed…
I agree. If it had been a teabagger shot, they would be advocating that every outspoken liberal be sent to Guantimo.
Would avoid starting any cycles of violence over the Tuscon shootings.
As an outcome of this, let’s, for a change, have the common sense and common decency to leave gun metaphors out of political discourse.
Troll @16:
You are correct in identifying this young man as a child who is a victim of mental illness and needs the help of a psychologist.
Unfortunately, there are many of these children out there and they have ready access to lethal weapons that can project deadly force over some distance. In Arizona, they also have the legal right to openly carry those fully loaded weapons out into public spaces.
So is it any surprise when one of these heavily armed children respond to the apocalyptic rhetoric of an Angle, Beck or Palin with what in their unhealthy judgment is a useful solution.
Blue John @17,
Had this been reversed, and a Republican congressman had been shot by a lefty, the Teahadists would likely have already acted upon Deuteronomy 19:21.
@20, 17
I think that is what the ground is being prepared for, I fear.
I think they want nothing short of a Reichstag fire and the excuse to unleash violence – both state controlled and their irregular militia foot soldiers.
Ethno-religious cleansing by good, gun-toting Christianist disciples. Left Behind here we come.
Isn’t this blog founded upon the demonization of Tim Eyman?
People who demonize, on both sides, are guilty. A few on the right are guilty of this tactic.
But I believe Goldy is also guilty of it. Guilty of demonizing the Tim Eyman, the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, the Seattle Times editorial board, and local Republicans. Why, just the other day didn’t he post a drawing of Sarah Palin wit a bullseye on her forehead?
Let us condemn these people who spread this hate and intolerance.
It’s good Goldy is shutting down this blog. It was divisive.
It’s just fascinating.
I’m surfing the conservatives sites.
There is a complete disconnect between our concept that “words matter” and the conservatives. In their minds there is no connection between their side’s words and the individual actions.
They can be screaming “FIRE” in a dark theater, and if people are trampled, it’s not their fault, it’s the fault of the personal choices made by the crowd.
I think it is a long step from calling someone a “horse’s ass” to suggesting he be “taken out”.
@ 22
Mr. Eyman presents himself as a narcissist, an anarchist and a Luddite. He doesn’t need demonizing. He’s just a moron.
Devastating critique of the OT and NT
Nox, a poster at a forum I visit destroys the Bible by the numbers. Here is a taste:
His comments are a riveting, educational read and he does both the OT and NT.
I know it’s been discussed, but what does this say?
Don’t get on Sarah Palin’s bad list. Don’t do anything that will make you stand out to the Teabaggers. If you do, some crazy will take you out.
I think that’s what horse’s ass means.
If I were the governor, I’d make sure he had “substantial” police “protection” and fire and rescue parked on the street outside his home for as long as he lives in the state.
I love how the “lone nut” theory is beginning to unravel for the wingnut apologists, now that law enforcement in Tucson is asking for the public’s help in locating this “person of interest”…..whose grainy photo does suggest an odd mix of “aging meth addict” crossed with “Bob” from Twin Peaks…..in other words, the spitting image of your typical Minuteman supporter……..
Rather than ‘eye for an eye’, I’d vastly prefer a “Gabby’s Law”, which was composed of nothing more than a reenactment of the FCC Fairness Doctrine. If these douchbag “commentators” on the right can’t have the decency or political good sense to STFU for one day and hang their heads over this tragedy, then we need to step up and shut them up for good. Let them keep their eyes — it’s their vocal cords & typing fingers we need to disable.
Now, if it turns out that Congressman Giffords can’t return to serve her constituents, and the Republican-controlled Arizona state government thinks about appointing someone with an R after their name to finish out her term……well, as Mencken said, normal men CAN reach a point where they must spit on their hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats………
Slitting throats does not get us to the political environment I want my children to inherit
If anyone wishes a running account of right vs left comments on Arizons, I have begun a collection over at The-Ave.US:
http://handbill.us/?p=1405
In the meantime:
The death toll, so far:
-John Roll, 63, a federal district court judge.
-Gabriel Zimmerman, 30, Giffords’ director of community outreach
-Dorwin Stoddard, 76, a pastor at Mountain Ave. Church of Christ.
-Christina Greene, 9, a student at Mesa Verde Elementary
-Dorthy Murray, 76
-Phyllis Scheck, 79
when violence is seen as a public health problem
exposure to media violence is a risk factor
as is availability of guns
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I think the president should show more outrage and clearly place the blame where it lies. That we are in a civil war should be clear to all now. The tea party folks even disrupted their own reading of the Constitution (OUR Constitution if we will claim it and take it back) in Congress. Of course we won’t shoot unless we are forced to, but it is important to speak out with courage to tell the truth. No point in even mentioning that former Alaska politician, though, she is history now.
@ 33
Dramatic depictions of violence is considered pornography in many countries, and is regulated as such. Whether or not this works I don’t know. But in the United States, anyone can go see the “Texas Chainsaw Massacre”, but you must be at least 18 years of age to see “Behind the Green Door”. When I went to see “Friday the 13th” back in 1980, at a Drive-in theater, the place was crawling with little kids. When I went to see “Saw 2”, there were dozens of kids under 12 years old in the audience.
I wonder what is more damaging to a persons psyche, violence or sex? It is certain what the Teabaggers and Christians think.
What’s interesting to me is leftists blame the entire Tea Party movement for the actions of the few, but don’t do the same when it comes to Islam. Double standard?
No double standard here Troll, we don’t blame the entire Tea Party. We blame their leaders like Angle, Beck & Palin, and the apocalyptic rhetoric their followers thrive on.
Nothing more? Six people are dead asshole. A member of Congress was SHOT IN THE HEAD.
Your mission here is failed Troll. You are words here are worth less than excrement.
Returning to today’s lesson from the Prophet Goldstein:
Gabby Giffords ascribes HER politics to her Judaism. http://handbill.us/?p=1405#more-1405.
As a follower of David’s, I think I am prpud this day that Congresswoman Giffords held the Torah in he rhand when she was sworn into Congress.
But are they worth less than Puddle’s?
Palin et al try to spin the bullseye on Giffords:
But someone finds the incriminating tweet:
Remember months ago bullseye icon used to target Obamacare supporting incumbents…
The woman is an idiot — and a liar.
@40
What is the significance of the particular book of myths and Bronze Age nostrums that she holds particular fealty toward?
41 – I get entertainment from Puddybud – on some days.
@42
I’ve read a lot of maps and charts, and I’ve never seen telescopic gun sight crosshairs anywhere on them.
Also, on the Palin hit list, the reps that were retiring – already gone – are marked as crosshairs in blood red.
Sick fucks.
@40: A “follower of David”? Really SJ? I thought you professed to be a secular (rational) jew. Please help me understand.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
“IT IS ON THE LEFT WHERE THE JEW-HATRED AND DEMONIZATION OF ISRAEL IS FOUND TODAY. Jew-hatred and anti-Israel rhetoric is a major platform, a cause celebre of the left.”
Further, it is now official that Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was indeed the target. It bears noting that Giffords is the first Jewish congresswoman elected from that state (Atlas was one of the first to point that out early yesterday). ONE OF LOUGHNER’S FAVORITE BOOKS IS HITLER’S MEIN KAMPF.”
This is the wingnut spin on this assassination attempt.
………………………<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>
@47
You quote the inimitable Pammy Geller, one of the foulest, most paranoid, most hate/rage filled anti-Muslim right wing bigots out there.
The best stuff I’ve seen written about is has been by Wolcott, to devastating effect, though I haven’t read him much lately.
I’m fascinated by the fact that it was a liberal, MBS @34, who first pointed outh that “an eye for an eye” was explicitly overturned by “turn the other cheek.” Not one of our Bible-thumping trolls who have previously commented in this thread chose to do so, and that speaks volumes.
Recent post at Palin’s facebook
From Max Blumenthal, via Wolcott:
@49
The interpretation of “Christ’s” teachings that, among other things, argue for peace, love, and helping the poor are rarely in my experience very central to the behavior/beliefs of Christianists who most prominently wear their religion on their sleeves.
@50
It is what they do. Demonize, deflect, abdicate any responsibility or even decency. It’s the other side’s fault, even though the religiosexual fetishization of the gun is a wholly right wing thing.
@49 Don Joe
PLEASE!
This is yet another example of the intrinsic antisemitism of Christians. The Roman Bible did not “overturn” the Torah.By the time “the cheek” quote was supposedly at least 1500 years had passed.
The context, by7 the way, was that we, the Jews, were split. Some of us wanted to NOT turn the other cheek and fight back at our Roman oppressors. Others said we should turn the other cheek. The same debate occurred two centuries later when many of us went willingly into Auschwitz.
Giving the Roman bible credit for “overthrowing” Judaism is as disgusting as Christian claims to have brought civilization to he slaves of Africa.
@52
I believe I’ve already called out the distinction between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel about Jesus Christ. Right-wing religious types spend way too much time focussing on the latter, and almost no time trying to understand the former. It’s an unhealthy fixation on the lamp that completely obscures the light that the lamp emits.
Zotz asks:
The “David” here is Ha Navee (the prophet) Goldstein.
I have never claimed to be secular Jew. Nor do I think the Prophet Dacid, makes that odd claim.
Despite the efforts of Christians to paint us as a religion, we are not now and never have been a religion.
For the last 3500 years we have been a people .. like the Chinese, the Hindus, or the French.
We are an ancient people, perhaps the oldest of all the world’s peoples that have a continuity of culture and tradition.
Part of our tradition is a religion, Judaism. That is as old as we are, and has evolved as much as we ourselves have evolved. The traces of our origins in the Torah are nothing less than a magical viewing glass into the origins of our people and our belie.
In the 3000 or so years since the Torah was written, a lot has happened and we have had many wonderful teachers. Some of these are recorded as the prophets of our scriptures. Later we had teachers like Hillel, the great Pharisee whose teachings seem ti be the basis for the good parts of the words attributed to Jesus.
Since Hillel, we have had Akiba, Maimonides, Halevy, Abravanel, Spinoza, Marx, Ricardo, Weizman, Gompers, Einstein, Rabin, … and many more whose ideas stem from the root of the ancient Torah.
If you do not mind Jewish pride, I see part of our history as being one of the great roots from which the tree of knowledge has grown.
Oh yeh, and the prophet Goldy is one of the fruits on that tree. Eat him!
@54
This is yet another example of the intrinsic antisemitism of Christians. The Roman Bible did not “overturn” the Torah.By the time “the cheek” quote was supposedly at least 1500 years had passed.
First, from the Christian point of view, and my comment was directed to that point of view, “overturn” is precisely the correct word.
Second, given the history of the particular New Testament passage in question, it’s difficult for me to see your umbrage as anything other than a form of Jewish Exceptionalism that’s not at all unlike right wing Amerian Exceptionalism. You can’t effectively argue that someone else is being parochial when your own argument has a parochial foundation.
DJ @57
See SJ @56
But SJ,
People of the Torah think this is year 5771 since Creation. So that puts People of the Torah at odds with Lib Unscientist.
Philosopy of religion professor abandons his field:
@57 Don Joe
What is there in what I am saying that you see as wrong?
Is it wrong to take umbrage at Christians who deride my people as being in need of salvation by Christianity?
As for Jewish Exceptionalism, what would you call it? You do not think that a culture like ours that has survived so long and given so much to all of humanity, has a right to some pride?
For what it is worth, I try to learn from all the great teachers … the prophets, if you will, from India, China, Egypt, Greece, the Toltec, … Europe, aka Christendom, has .. although amongst the youngest of these, also given us great teachers.
America, perhaps the youngest of all, has also been an exceptional society. i hope we will continue to be one.
Try eating the fruit!
@50 Puddy
I have no idea who you mean by “people of the Torah.”
I know you do not speak for the Jews.
You might read “A guide to the perplexed” by Maimonides or the Khazari t get a better idea of what Judaism teaches about the Torah.
zotz@27
Thanks for the link – an amazing conversation worthy of bookmarking. Much appreciated!
@8 What I want is for Glenn Beck to grow up and act like an adult, and for the people who pay him millions to mouth off like a juvenile high on drugs to grow up and act like responsible adults.
@64
Fat fucking chance.
@61
What’s wrong here is the notion that your point of view is, somehow, objectively correct while the Christian point of view is, objectively, wrong. You’re attempting the rhetorical equivalent of arguing that all non-Euclidian geometries are wrong by assuming that Euclidian Geometry is the only correct one.
Each point of view has it’s underlying assumptions in the very same way that Euclidian and non-Euclidian geometries have different basic assumptions. There is no logically legitimate way to choose between them without starting from the position that each set of underlying assumptions has an equal probability of being valid. Indeed, as with plane and spherical geometries, the validity of the underlying assumptions can well depend on the ends we wish to achieve.
You should track down William Hatcher’s book, Minimalism. He does an excellent job of both explaining and resolving this basic problem of epistemology.
By the way, I don’t need to eat the fruit in order to tell that it’s rotten.
@12
Political assassination is a blunt weapon. You are usually killing the wrong person, because you don’t understand politics.
Just look at who replaced those killed in history.
@14 I like your solution. My lawyer pals like it too. If the Extreme Court can give corporate controllers the same political speech rights are living persons, then it should also give legal remedies to people who get shot in the head as a result of hate talk by corporate media.
Some years ago, a couple of women got the crap stomped out of them by Richard Butler’s Aryan goons. Thanks to a courageous lawyer (Morris Dees) and an intelligent jury, those two women became the owners of Butler’s neo-Nazi training camp in Hayden Lake, Idaho. The buildings were razed and the grounds were turned into a peace park. Butler died a penniless old man and his followers dispersed. Justice and the public interest was served by that multimillionaire judgment against a hate vendor and his minions.
The purpose of punitive damages is to change and deter behavior that hurts people and harms the community. It’s no accident that Republicans want to rein in, or eliminate if they can, the power of juries to award such damages — because they’re the ones at risk of having to pay them.
In their campaign for mislabeled “tort reform,” wingers often cite the McDonald’s coffee case (invariably distorting the facts, such as falsely claiming the injured woman was driving while hold the coffee cup between her knees). They cite the original jury award (which was massively reduced by the courts) as proof of a “runaway” jury system. In fact, that jury was extraordinarily lenient with McDonald’s, which deliberately made its coffee 20 to 30 degrees hotter than standard restaurant industry practice to boost its profits. The jury penalized McDonald’s only one day of its nationwide profits on coffee sales in what was really a mild effort to get this giant company to change its corporate behavior. Up to that point, McDonald’s had been sued over 700 times for coffee burns, and still had not altered is unsafe business practices, because the company obviously calculated that it made more profit to continue injuring its customers even after settling burn injury suits.
SCOTUS should allow people who get shot by political haters to sue the rightwing media conglomerates who make millions by selling hate to the gullible rightwing masses. Juries should turn over the ownership of those TV networks to the victims, just as the jury in the Hayden Lake case did. The Fox News studios should be razed and the grounds turned into a peace park. And Glenn Beck should die a penniless old man.
A real Christian would pray for both the victims and the shooter. And then turn over the shooter to secular law enforcement authorities so he won’t have to pray for any more victims.
@66 Don Jo
You are avoiding the subject of your own post.
Nothing in what I said had anything to do with claiming that my “point of view is, somehow, objectively correct while the Christian point of view is, objectively, wrong.”
I think you need to look in the mirror. Jewish “denial” has never had the least to do with denigrating any one else’s beliefs. Rather, Christians have burned OUR books ans stolen our children, because we refused to accept Christian
truth.
A huge part of this tragedy grows out of such exclusivist views,. as Americans we ALL (Jews as well) are heirs of this Christian heritage and it is amongst our worst traits.
DJ
“By the way, I don’t need to eat the fruit in order to tell that it’s rotten.”
What is that supposed to mean?
It rather smells of Christian exclusivism to me.
@56: Thanks and LOLs.
I too am a “follower of David” as you explain it. Although he is often prophetic, I value him as a truth teller.
I have no problem with jew pride, there is much to be proud of (though not not so much lately, wrt Israeli politics and our part in it).
So then as I understand you, you are a “cultural” vice “religious”* jew?
(superstitious, theistic, etc.)
No SJ, Puddy visits Jewish Torah sites once or twice a week and Haaretz often. The year is 5771.
This should be, and undoubtedly will be, a death penalty case. Obviously the defense will argue insanity or diminished capacity. However, mental illness does not ipso facto get you off the hook for a crime requiring the ability to form intent. If psychiatric evaluation determines this guy was capable of distinguishing right from wrong, he’s responsible for his actions, even though his thinking was defective. All killers are fucked up in the head; that’s no excuse. I say try this guy first for the 9-year-old girl and ask the jury to allow the state to execute him. Let the defense carry the burden of proving that his life should be spared because of his impaired mental state. If I were on such a jury I would need a lot of persuading.
Some of my liberal friends are against the death penalty, period, in all cases. Some years ago, I gave a lot of thought to this issue, and concluded I would support the sparing use of the death penalty in exceptionally heinous cases with ample safeguards against the risk of executing an innocent person. I can’t support a categorical ban on the death penalty because there are people who deserve to be dead and asked for it by their actions, such as that monster in that Connecticut home invasion case who murdered a family, killing the two girls by tying them to their beds, dousing them in gasoline, and setting them afire. If we truly had an eye-for-eye system that guy would be executed by burning him at the stake. We don’t do that anymore, and thank God we don’t. He’ll get to go very easily and peacefully. If the state truly wanted to punish him it would turn him loose in the inmate population and let them take care of him.
goldy is really brilliant
advocates violence against his political opponents to protest political violence
I’m sure we will all find out what books are on Goldy’s shelf, and what notes he left in his safe, just as soon as he gets around to following thru on his internet pleas for help — i.e., taking down planes, gunning people down at political rallies
you regulars on this psycopath’s blog should be embarrassed for your comments, but i can tell you also have no shame, as you egg him on thru his psychosis
And that’s the inherent flaw in capital punishment — even when it’s as heinous as this shooting.
Solitary confinement without the possibility of parole is cheaper and serves the purpose.
Puddy,
Whenever YOU wish, you are more than welcome to attend a Jewish service with me.
You would learn a lot that could make you a better Christian.
@75: you regulars on this psycopath’s blog should be embarrassed for your comments, but i can tell you also have no shame, as you egg him on thru his psychosis
Pfft. There is a vast difference between satire and telling a bunch of lowlife psychopaths with guns that their political opponents really, truly, honestly deserve to die.
re 16: Why didn’t he go to a baseball stadium during a game and shoot it up if he’s just a victim of mental illness?
Why a public meet and greet for a new congesswoman? That argument will only fly with right wingers. If it were a Republican that were shot, you’d be singing a different term.
@76: And that’s the inherent flaw in capital punishment — even when it’s as heinous as this shooting.
I take a different tack from Roger on this. For me, ANY use of the death penalty is pointless. Even aside from the problems with executing the innocent, it is state-sanctioned killing outside of the immediate need for self-defense. In a modern liberal democracy where we have the resources to keep someone in prison for the rest of their lives, that kind of killing amounts to revenge, not justice.
Although ethically challenged conservatives would like to disagree, the use of the power of the state to kill is wrong, and quite reprehensible.
Tim McVeigh was a religious man — a fervent Christian.
One of his favorite books was the Bible.
@79: If it were a Republican that were shot, you’d be singing a different term.
Exactly. If a Teahadist were killed by anyone with even vague left-wing leanings, blood would run through the streets.
@70
I don’t think I’m avoiding the subject of my own comments, which is parochialism. I believe I used that word in my first response to you, and I believe you understand precisely what that word means. So, stop playing stupid.
And you cannot speak of the “intrinsic antisemitism of Cristians,” without making assumptions that Christians would reject. That statement has a fundamental problem of epistemology, and you cannot proclaim a lack of denigration in your history when denigrating all Christians is exactly what you not just a few comments ago.
@16, a mentally ill child who legally bought a gun and targeted someone who had been targeted in political ads and rhetoric for years.
Who knows who the mentally ill child would have targeted if there had never been any ‘gun-related’ targeting by the Tea Party/Republicans in the first place. Or if there were laws in lace that would have discouraged gun ownership by someone mentally deranged in the first place. Maybe there would have never been a shooting.
The saddest thing of all to me is the nine year-old girl having been killed.
I turn to this Bible verse today,
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
re 85: Yes. That is a sorrow that will last a lifetime for anyone who knew that little girl.
Latest Developments
Jared Loughner has been charged with “one count of attempting to kill a member of Congress, two counts of first degree murder and two counts of attempted murder.”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....harged.php
FBI Director Robert Mueller said terrorism charges are possible, and the FBI is investigating Loughner’s “possible connections to white supremacist groups.”
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....-today.php
A second “person of interest” has been located and cleared; he was a cab driver who merely went inside the Safeway store with Loughner to get change for cab fare.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....leared.php
The leader of the Arizona Tea Party says her group won’t change their rhetoric because of the shooting.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....ooting.php
GOP Sen. Rand Paul, on a Fox TV show today, claimed the shootings were “unrelated” to Arizon’s gun laws. “The weapons don’t kill people, it’s the individual that kills people,” Paul said.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....hp?ref=fpb
GOP Sen. Lamar Alexander, on a CNN TV show today, claimed Loughner doesn’t fit “the profile of a typical tea party member if that’s the inference that’s being made.”
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....hp?ref=fpb
GOP Sen. Jon Kyle, on a CBS TV show today, called Sheriff Clarence Dupnik’s public criticism of hate speech “inappropriate.”
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....priate.php
A Palin aide, on a radio show today, claimed the crosshairs on Palin’s infamous map weren’t gun sights but “simply cross-hairs like you’d see on maps.”
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.....hp?ref=fpb
Personally, I think Palin is finished as a public figure.
@83 Don Jo
Where did I denigrate Christians?
Leaving aside epistemology (which has nothing to do with the subject), the only issue we were discussing is Christian/Roman denigration of Jews and Judaism for refusal to accept the Christian view of truth.
I am at a loss to see what else you are talking about. Do you really think Jews should accept the Christian myth that Jesus overturned the truths we lived by?
This reminds me of the Zuni elder who, when asked why her people had not accepted Jesus, replied “If he is so good, why does the white man want to give him away?”
I think the only response to such comments is, “How all too Christian of you.”
BTW .. since we are likely boring others and off topic for HA, I would be happy to set this up as a thread at SJ.
I recall how Puddy repeatedly told us that the woman who was curb-stomped by those teabagger men in Kentucky had it coming to her. He shows us again today that he is utterly unfamiliar with shame or remorse.
Life must be a trip indeed in PuddyLand. To wake up each day and view the world afresh as if his mind were a tabula rasa to be filled anew with wingnut talking points for the day.
re 87: You may be overestimating her followers. It’s as obvious as black and white to them that a socialist Nazi sympathizer did the foul deed.
To them, the important lesson to be learned is that Palin (and by proxy, them) is once again being victimized by the press.
PROVE IT Stupid Solution Steve!
Puddy said Laura attacked Rand Paul with her sign. The video Puddy posted proved it.
You are so disingenuous! Typical Liberal!
Prove it Headless lucy!
Nope you dope. Puddy visits Daily Kooks and other moronic leftist sites to see what you fools will be parroting for the day!
@80: I agree with all that (and value the ethical considerations more than what I said in my comment to Roger), demo kid.
But it’s always useful to point out to a death penalty advocate that killing the perpetrator is a waste of resources when you acheive essentially the same result and arguably better “punishment” with a life (no parole) sentence.
@88
Where did I denigrate Christians?
So, saying that Christians are intrinsically antisemitic doesn’t denigrate them at all?
And, no, we cannot leave aside the issue of epistemology, because that is the issue. Saying that Christian views are inherently antisemitic requires the assumption that they are wrong about both the station of Jesus Christ and the history of their own religion. If Christians are correct about the station of Jesus Christ, then the difference is strictly a religious difference, not a difference based on race.
@92 “PROVE IT”
You’re sick in the head, Puddy. Proof? Your hate-filled remarks about the woman who was curb-stomped and your hate-filled posts in this thread are all the proof I need.
@93 Pud,
McVeigh called the Christian Identity leader, Robert Millar, minutes after renting the truck he used to carry he explosives to the Fed Building in OK.
Look it up. McVeigh was a Christian identity nut/killer.
I’m sure that in Puddy’s warped view the shooter is a card carrying member of the Greenspan/Armitage wing of the Democratic party.
“Puddy said Laura attacked Rand Paul with her sign.”
Your bullshit video showed nothing of the kind. So she had it coming to her, huh? She deserved to be held to the curb by one man as another man curb-stomped her?
I tire of your hate.
Here, Puddy. These people, like yourself, excuse Sarah Palin’s eliminationist rhetoric.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t770876/
They are your kindred spirits, Puddy.
I sense no sadness or remorse in your comments, Puddy. Do you believe, as you do with the woman who was curb-stomped, that Gabrielle Giffords had it coming to her too?
Not one word of sadness or a kind word from Puddy for the other victims of this senseless shooting? Not even for the little girl? I suppose Puddy figures they all had it coming to them as well.
@80 Sometimes revenge is appropriate.
Puddy already said his prayers for Giffords. Puddy don’t need to justify anything for you Stupid Solution Steve. Where is your “sadness”?
MORON!
So you have no comment to share with us expressing sadness that people were senselessly murdered? Just as you had no comments condemning the man who curb-stomped a defenseless woman. All you’ve brought so far is an attempt to pollute these threads with lies, false equivalencies and hatred in your pathetic attempt to excuse right-wing eliminationist rhetoric and violence.
“Where is your “sadness”?”
Part of my sadness today is for you and your pathetic, wretched, hate-filled life.
Why Stupid Solution Steve. Some fool like Lib Unscientist will call it a fake response. You’ll ridicule Puddy for some stupid reason. Instead, why haven’t you decried the lack of the same thing you want Puddy to do from the fools on your side.
Nary a peep on that one.
Nope you Dope, Puddy placed those comments on sites that MATTER!
Regarding the woman who attacked Rand Paul which you watched from the video, cry Puddy a river. She attacked Rand Paul twice through his car window and was subdued. The video didn’t lie Stupid Solution Steve.
“Puddy already said his prayers for Giffords.”
It’s too damned easy to imagine that you pray that she dies and goes to hell with the rest of us. What else could we expect from someone so full of hate as yourself?
“Puddy placed those comments on sites that MATTER!”
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t770876/
What screen name do you use there?
Foot for foot? Did Coach Reid write this thing?
PS Belated congrats on the new gig. The Stranger has added at least one new reader to the Slog.
Are you this stupid every day? Must be! Stormfront? When has Puddy ever been a Ron Paul jockstrapper? Puddy may have said his cost cutting ideas have merit, that’s all. Pavlov calls the dumb brick ylb will be searching his databaze right now.
Puddy never heard of them until the dumb brick ylb introduced them here bragging about their BBB rating.
Why does Stupid Solution Steve approve of women attacking their political opponents with wooden signs?
“Are you this stupid every day?”
You project too much. Puddy, you’ve been stupid every day you’ve shown up here, through 30,000 dumb-as-fucking-stump, hate-filled comments.
Take your dumbfuck, hate-filled self to Stormfront. Your kindred spirits there await you.
It’s a Psych 101 Thing Stupid Solution Steve! Van Jones and the Communist Party need you Stupid Solution Steve!
@113 There’s no need for you to continue making excuses for violent right-wing men who took part in the curb-stomping of a defenseless women. Your task today is to make excuses for right-wing eliminationist rhetoric and murder.
Again Puddy asks: Why does Stupid Solution Steve approve of women attacking their political opponents with wooden signs?
Defenseless woman Stupid Solution Steve? She was wielding wood trying to push it into Rand’s face. It’s all on tape. But then again you are blind! She did it first Stupid Solution Steve. Had it all planned out. Wore a wig and makeup. When Paul’s Suburban slowed down she tried to hit Paul in the face. It’s all on tape and Stupid Solution Steve approves because Rand is a Republican. It’s A-OK to attack a Republican with wood in their face!
@115 If you’re going to lose it, take it to Stormfront. Maybe they’ll show you some pity. You’ll damn well find no pity whatsofuckingever from me today.
@117 Like I said, take it to Stromfront. You’ll be with like-minded people. Just don’t tell them that you’re black.
Puddy ain’t looking from pity from a moron like you Stupid Solution Steve. Puddy demonstrating what type of “man” you are Stupid Solution Steve. You approve of women attacking and hitting men in the head with pine wood.
Figgers about Stupid Solution Steve. He approves of battery!
Stormfront?
You keep telling us that the curb-stomped woman had it coming to her.
You pathetic wretch. We haven’t one word of sadness or condolence out of you for the woman the assassin targeted or for the bystander victims. Not even for the little girl who died or for her family. Why should anybody here believe that your prayer was for anything other than for Gabrielle Giffords to die and go to hell?
Enough. I’ve got better things to do today than witness your hate-filled freak show.
Sadly Steve, where is your “remorse” for the leftist who did this?
Call Puddy whatever you want Stupid Solution Steve. It’s apparent you are twisting in the wind. Where did Puddy claim he wants Giffords to die and go to hell? Projecting again with your Psych 101 Thing?
Enough of your silliness fool.
Steve – whoa big fella – there’s no point – you’re going to pull a rujax! Back away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, grab a beer, imagine a world where there is no malignant insanity like that synthesized by the “Puddy” algorithm.
BTW Stupid Solution Steve, Puddy already commented on his personal thoughts!
Go find them moron!
The most disgusting thing of all that I’ve heard is that Fred Phelps and his phreaky Phlock have announced the intention to demonstrate at the funerals of the victims.
Regardless of the legality, I hope Sheriff Dupnik has the balls to arrest those fucks, lock them up and take the phone off the hook until the services have concluded.
Where did you “hear” this ArtFart? If true Puddy agrees with ArtFart. Phelps is a moron like Stupid Solution Steve.
Arizona authorities say a second man has been cleared of any involvement in an attempted assassination of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson.
Pima County Sheriff’s Deputy Jason Ogan said Sunday that the man was a cab driver who drove the gunman to the grocery store outside of which the shooting occurred. But that won’t stop Stupid Solution Steve and his “putrid comments”.
Meanwhile where did Stupid Solution Steve leave his condolences?
@113 “Puddy may have said his cost cutting ideas have merit, that’s all.”
Here’s a cost-cutting idea for you and your fellow wingnuts, putz. Don’t go into other people’s countries blowing up their villages and mowing down their women and children. Save $1 trillion.
@129 I posted that info 4 1/2 hours ago. See #87.
Speaking of cost-cutting, the lying Republicans who promised to cut $100 billion of federal spending have backed away from that pledge. Only three days after taking office they’re already down to $50 billion, and by next month they’ll be increasing spending. Guess there isn’t as much “waste, fraud, and abuse” in the budget as they wanted voters to believe.
@ 96. Don Joe
I did nit say that, I said that the claim of the Roman/Christian Bible to have replaced Judaism with Jesus intrinsically antisemitic.
What else would you call it?
I assume you did not intend to make a racist comment. Though we do have horns and tales, we are certainly of the same race as other humans.
As for the meaning of truth, if your religion teaches that Jews are a race and that our race is inferior to your own (whatever a “race is”) that sort of thing does not require an epistemologist to recognize as being wrong.
Whether you call it truth, propaganda, or bigotry, the picture of the Jews in your bible is denigrating and bigoted. If your bible is true, we .. to use the HA vernacular .. suck.
Puddy @ 128
Instead of “attempted assassination”, don’t you mean “mass murder of six people, including a little girl”?
Anyway, what do you think about giving the shooter some “medication” to treat his condition? Such as a very large dose of sodium penthothal or potassium chloride?
Puddy
Your prayers would be far more effective if they were said to your fellows than to Me.
I am that I am.
Is this a prayer or more hate speech?
I am that I am
Puddy,
more hate or is this “prayer” too?
I am that I am
Enough Puddy bashing.
I hurt too much to listen any more today.
There is a little girl, nine years old, who died because of hatred.
Enough is enough.
I am that I am.
NikkiTaMere @75,
Um… when have I ever advocated violence against my political opponents? When have I done anything but rail against the advocacy of violence by my political proponents?
And by the way, on my bookshelf you will find copies of the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf, just like you’ll find on Loughner’s, as it is impossible to fully understand the 20th Century without reading these books.
@137
Yeah, god, why did you let that happen?
If enough is enough (Basta Ya! – god must be a leftist!), then why in the first place, God?
@132
I did nit say that, I said that the claim of the Roman/Christian Bible to have replaced Judaism with Jesus intrinsically antisemitic.
That is exactly what you said in your comment @54, your first reply to me in this thread.
As for my use of the word “race” I used the word in exactly the same connotation as you used the word “people” in this thread. Would you have been less offended if I’d used the word “ethnicity” instead? Does that substantially change my point that the disagreement you have with Chrstians is one that has to do with religious truth?
As for your reference to “your bible,” I’m not a Christian. It’s not my Bible. Indeed, the point of my original comment in this thread was to draw out an inconsistency between Christian behavior and their Bible. I made that point, however, from the Christian point of view. To try to make the point from my point of view would have been, well, rather parochial of me.
Given your conduct in this thread, I’m beginning to think that you regard anyone who disagrees with you as being “intrinsically antisemitic.” I’ll have to keep that in mind the next time you toss out such an emotionally-charged accusation.
The puddybitch is a superstitious freak. Who cares what he thinks.
Golly if the fool rujax ACTUALLY READ A THREAD… Don Joe’s comment is not about Puddy ya moron!
Well it seems the local Arizona loonies have besmirched vets
@142…
Re-iteration.
Coming out of Arizona, looks like Jared Lee Loughner, the almost congressional assassin, is a confirmed whack-job leftist progressive DUMBOCRAT. Loughner was pizzed with Congresswoman Giffords for being a conservative DUMBOCRAT who didn’t vote for Pelosi and she wasn’t whack-job leftist progressive enough for him.
Golly this really explodes the lauramae myth.
Puddy loves the standard rush to judgment by the whack-jobs here on HA!
And from the NY TImes
“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday.
“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent”
@144: Coming out of Arizona, looks like Jared Lee Loughner, the almost congressional assassin, is a confirmed whack-job leftist progressive DUMBOCRAT.
Ahh, yes… now the douchebag is either lying, or believing what the far-right wingnuts are saying online. Again, I’m amazed that someone can be so shameless.
Well demoed kid,
We’ll see this week. We’ll see! This will be glorious demoed kid. Did you read the NY Times “douchebag”?
“This will be glorious”
Six people dead and this is what you have to say?
More checking demoed kid,
Loughner’s favorite video… something HA liberals love to do…
Stupid Solution Steve,
What we will see this week will be glorious idiot! Outing Loughner as a leftist progressive pinhead will be glorious moron. What he did was what Puddy said in a previous link.
Did you find it yet fool? What are you Stupid Solution Steve, keeper of the stupid, Stuck on Stupid? Yes you are!
Goldy @ 139
And by the way, on my bookshelf you will find copies of the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf, just like you’ll find on Loughner’s
Do you have Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland as well? If so, you may be a homicidal political terrorist …
Richard @152,
The Collected Works of Lewis Carroll sits by my bed, not on my bookshelf. But no, I don’t believe I own a copy of Peter Pan, although I too strongly believe that one should never, never land.
You are one sick fuck. Is it “glorious” that your “2nd Amendment solution” resulted in the death of a nine year old girl? How’s that “Palin crosshairs” thing working? Are nine year old girls just collatoral damage? Is her death your “glorious” result? Is that your wingnut vision for America? Dead little girls in mall parking lots? You show no remorse, no shame, nothing. Instead you tell us that this will be “glorious”. A little girl is dead, you ass, and you obviously don’t care. All you can think about is scoring political points. So tell us, how many points is a dead nine year old girl worth in the fucking sick game you play?
As far as I’m concerned, that little girl’s blood is on your hands too. Fuck you and fuck everything you stand for.
@141 Don Joe
Again, what I said was that the Roman/Christian bible is antisemitic. So, by the way is the Qran, although even more so.
The Roman bible claims that the Deity came to earth to overturn the ways of the Jews, wicked ways, based on a false image of a vengeful God.
Based on that horrid “revelation,” literally millions of Jews have been killed. If that is not antisemitisim, what do you call it?
The Qran has a simialr tale. We are cre3id for refusing to accept Muhamud as a prophet and then some of us, those of us living in Yathrib/Medina are killed for not supporting Muhamud’s war with the Quereshi. based on that, the Qran commands ethnic cleansing or Arabia. Is this also not antisemitic?
Your equations of the terms “race” and “people” is very, very strange. I have Jewish friends who are of African descent. They look like any other person from Africa. We, the Jewish people, accept them as brothers and sisters. Does that make us a “race?”
Gabby Gifford was not raised as a Jew, but decided to join us as an adult, did that change her race because she is now one of what we consider a people?
Finally, I am offended that you think there is something wrong when a Jew objects to a comment because somehow, the comment is based on a bible. I know perfectly well that Christianity nis a lot more than just the Roman bible. The same religion that gave us the crusades and Torquemad gave us the enlightenment and MLK. Do you really think I regard them as antisemites because their wonderfulness arose from their Christian culture?
So, no I do not see antisemitism everywhere. I do nto even see it in those whose righteous sympathy for the sufferings of Palestinians leads to anger towards the Jewish people.
Nor do I think Gabby Gifford was shot because she was sworn in while holding the Torah rather than the Roman Bible or that Barack Obama is an antisemite because he put his hand on the Roman bible.
I hope this helps.
God,
Thank you for speaking for me.
Perhaps Your word will help Don Joe understand.
@156, 157
AHA! Gotcha SJ – caught god-handed!
I knew “god” couldn’t be as bad a typist as you, if there were a god! ;o)
Projecting again Stupid Solution Steve. Where Puddy ever said anything you wrote there? You support women taking wood up side a man’s head.
It’s you who is the SICKIST FUCKER here along with rujax, ylb Lib Unscientist, K etc! Get it? You love to project your Stupid thoughts on others. Puddy already dealt with this leftist idiot in another thread. Puddy doesn’t need to reiterate anything to you moron! This sicko was not a Palin acolyte, he was a leftist pinhead Stupid Solution Steve. You can’t swallow that. Puddy watched an interview with the 9 year old’s family. She is the granddaughter of former manager Dallas Green. Didn’t know that did you fool? Now why is Puddy interested in this girl? Because The Puddys care. Yet you Steve will stay on this blog screaming BULLSHITTIUM to the high heavens barking at the moon!
It’s getting warmer Stupid Solution Steve…
A 9/11 Truther, like some HA leftist fools here. You see you stupid sick Steve, as people perform their due diligence, the more we learn Loughner was a leftist progressive whackjob like the Discovery Channel fool!
@156
Again, what I said was that the Roman/Christian bible is antisemitic.
From comment 54 above:
This is yet another example of the intrinsic antisemitism of Christians. [emphasis added]
That statement is clear–to be a Christian is to be antisemitic.
Your equations of the terms “race” and “people” is very, very strange.
Not really. Race is largely a social construct. There’s more genetic variation within the so-called races than there is between their respective averages. Moreover, racism is, effectively, xenophobia with overtones of superiority. Morally, they are equivalent in that the effect is to elevate one group of human beings over another.
Nevertheless, I said I was perfectly willing to replace the word “race” with the word “ethnicity”, because doing so does not substantially alter my point. Apparently that’s not sufficient for you to address the point.
Finally, I am offended that you think there is something wrong when a Jew objects to a comment because somehow, the comment is based on a bible.
If, you’re willing to disavow the statement I quoted above, then we are in agreement. If you’re going to continue to deny it, then wear your righteous indignation with pride. In either case, I don’t give a damn if you want to choose to be offended.
@ 157
Perhaps Your word will help Don Joe understand.
It occurs to me that, if God really were here, God would point out that the Muslim version of the events at Yathrib is very different from the Jewish version and that all you really have is yet another version of the Us vs. Them story. The only thing that never changes about that story is that the “Us” in the story are the good guys while the “Them” in the story are the bad guys.
Were God really here, I’d think God would tell both sides of these Us vs. Them stories to just get over yourselves.
@162 Don Joe
I see. No I did not mean that all Christians or even all Christianity is antisemitic.
However, the founding myth/story of Christianity is very antisemitic. In a capsule, Jesus is a gift from the Deitt, he comes, and his gift is rejected by the Jews who have him crucified.
To add salt to the wound, the Jews depicted in the story are the Pharisees, not the temple Jews who were accommodating to the Roman occupiers. The cant arising from this story became the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church and remained there until Vatican II.
Even Jefferson accepted this as an authentic view, not only of my ancestors but of the Jews of his time.
To this day, Rome has churches devoted to the myth that the Roman Church supplanted not just a religion but the Jewish people itself.
Obviously, this horrid story does not say that Christianity is evil anymore than the stories in Joshua’s exploits can be used to paint Jews as xenophobic. The difference is, that where the great majority of Jews treat those stories as history, the Christian churches to this day celebrates its story.
As for Medina and Yathrib, I am not aware of two versions of the story. To the ebst of my knowledge, the only record is in the Qran and its impact, the ethnic cleansing of Arabia, continues to day not only in the Arabian peninsula but as a central antisemitic/anti Israel meme in in much of the Muslim world.
On “people vs race”
Surely you are aware that the designation “race” as applied to Jews has been vicious?
Semantics is worse than epistemology.
AS for the Jewish people, we are certainly a lot more than ethnic food and we take very seriously our survival as a people even when we are living, as we do here, with other peoples .. the goyem.
We are an very unusual people because of the history of oppression by Islam and Christendom. For millennia, these two two religions, heirs of the imperialism of Rome, have defined us from the outside while we fought for our identity from the inside.
@ 163
However, the founding myth/story of Christianity is very antisemitic.
I don’t think that resolves the issue. Indeed, I think that statement is semantically equivalent to saying that Christians are intrinsically antisemitic.
Is it not true that, in its original telling, the founding myth/story is a story told by jews and about jews? How does someone standing on the outside of this, like me for example, come to see this as anything more than a religious dispute among jews?
As for Medina and Yathrib, I am not aware of two versions of the story.
Well, your version of the story seems to omit the treaty that’s found in nearly every Muslim version of the story. Looks like two rather different versions of the story to me.
@ 164
Surely you are aware that the designation “race” as applied to Jews has been vicious?
Yes. Now, where, in any of my comments here, have I given even the hint of a “vicious” connotation to the word?
And, you’re still avoiding the central question regarding the nature of this dispute you have with Christianity/Christians.
We are an very unusual people because of the history of oppression by Islam and Christendom.
This might make you different (though, frankly, large groups of people throughout history have suffered persecution and oppression), it would be a mistake to use that history to justify a moral sense of superiority. To do so could, all too easily, lead one to transition from being the oppressed to being the oppressor.
Don Joe
1, I have never said anything about moral superiority. Are you one of those who sees us as arrogant because we call ourselves the chosen?
Anytime you want to be chosen, that can be arranged. Funny thing is, Judaism teaches this as a burden, not an accolade.
2. I also never said that YOU though badly of the Jewish “race.” What I did say is that the term “race” as applied ot the Jewish people in our society is wrong, racist and the osurce of a lot of harm.
If you do not understand that, then you are either delusional, in denial, or something worse.
I am curious. Do you also think there is an American race? How about a Hindu race? Is there an Arab race?
3. You, not I, said there were multiple versions of the story of Medina. The story as it is, just like the stories surrounding Joshua and David, is repugnant.
You also, somehow, seem immune to the issue of ethnic cleansing dictated by Muhamud in that story.
Is that OK by you?
4. Are you saying that the story of Jesus is not antisemitic because Jews wrote it????
The stories being told, whatever they were, in the first century are long lost under two millenia of Roman, Byzantine, and later layers of rewriting. Whatever documents or rumors passed on after the first century, the people who assembled the “truth” were not Jews but Romans. The closes we have to a history of the era, by Tacitus and by Josephus, certainly do not support the truth you seem to think was written by Jews.
By the way, were Hitler, Trotsky, and Marx “Jews” by your definition? How about Torquemada?
5. How do you feel about contemporary efforts to celebrate the Confederacy? Are these semantic as well?
@ 166
I have never said anything about moral superiority.
And, I haven’t said that you have. I’ve offered a word of caution, because the implication very clearly drips from just about everything you’ve said in this thread. You haven’t crossed the line, yet anyway, but you’re certainly standing on it.
If you do not understand that, then you are either delusional, in denial, or something worse.
Did I not answer your previous question with a, “Yes”? Are you reading what I write?
You don’t seem to like the word “ethnicity,” and the word “people” strikes me as rather vague. At that point, the word “race” is as good as any for conveying the point, which you still don’t seem to want to address.
You, not I, said there were multiple versions of the story of Medina.
Yes, and that strikes me as a rather straightforward observation of fact.
You also, somehow, seem immune to the issue of ethnic cleansing dictated by Muhamud in that story.
I’m not “immune” to the horrible nature of the massacre, or of any massacre for that matter. That isn’t the question. Key differences in facts, however, can be rather important in determining whether or not the massacre constitutes an instance of antisemitism.
Weren’t Hindus and Christians also subject to the same “convert or die” ultimatum? If so, then aren’t we talking about religious differences and nothing else?
Are you saying that the story of Jesus is not antisemitic because Jews wrote it????
I’m saying that it looks very much like a religious dispute that arose first amongst jews.
Whatever documents or rumors passed on after the first century, the people who assembled the “truth” were not Jews but Romans.
And those same Romans were busy persecuting Christians before Constantine. Are you saying that these Romans all of a sudden started liking Christians while retaining a fundamental desire to exterminate all Jews?
Again, you are claiming that Christianity is intrinsically antisemitic. In order to reach that conclusion, you have to make quite a few specific judgements about history in such a way as to discount other tellings of the same story. In other words, your argument in support of that claim merely begs the question.
DJ
No.
There were no hindus in Arabia and not k,many Christians. AFIK, there “convert or die” has ONLY been a Christian vs other practice. The Jews were enslaved or killed. Is there anything similar about Christians in Arabia?
DJ
No, unless you buy the Roman version of the story. “christian” as a historical identity does not emerge until at least the year 100.
Show me any evidence that
“Christi9ans,” as opposed to non-believers in the Roman gods in general, were targeted by Rome?
If they were, then thta was amazingly unsuccessful since Constantine, a Solarian, chose to impose Christianity on his empire because he saw it as a very useful tool of rule.
Bull pucky. History is history.
Yes, but HISTORY is nto dependent on one set of stories.
No. Read the Jesuas Project, that may get you started.