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HA Bible Study

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Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Discuss.

Comments

  1. 1

    That is insane.

    Now I suppose that one could make the argument that the covenant with God was SO central and important that any violation was a capital crime.
    Or that being (self) defined as ‘God’s chosen people’ was so essential to the cohesion of the community (albeit a delusion) that deviation from God’s laws was an intolerable challenge to the delusion.
    But what sort of ‘God’ would require your life for gathering wood during the wrong solar cycle? It’s nuts.

    I fear that the voices inside Moses’ head were what cost this unfortunate wood-gatherer his life.

  2. 2

    Perhaps “gathering wood” is a metaphor, like “walking the appalachian trail”. Maybe he was found having sex with young boys.

  6. 6

    The Torah is truth, but what truth?

    In the story of Abraham and Isaac, Abraham heard Me. Abraham showed his obedience by preparing Isaac for sacrifice, but Abraham also heard my word not to take a life.

    Did those who cast stone heed Moses or did they heed Me?

    If a priestess tells you My word and says burn Christine O’Donnell as a witch, should you listen to the priestess or seek Me?

    To follow Moses rather than heed Me is true idolatry.

    I am that I am.

  7. 7

    Why does this bother you libs?

    The Israelites were at WAR! They were led by God and his command were told to them by Moses and Aaron.

    If the General says drop the A bomb on Hiroshima, the pilot will convey the order to the bombardier and he damn well better follow orders!

    It is not for enlisted men to question the chain of command.

  8. 8

    Maybe this never really happened and is the ancient Hebrews’ version of an urban legend:

    “Like, it’s dangerous to violate Sabbath Laws, like, one time, they caught this one guy, gathering wood, on the sabbath, like, and they didn’t know what to do, like, so Moses went, like, kill him with rocks, like, but not here, Like, do it over there. So, they guy was, like, killed over there. So, don’t violate Sabbath Law, or, like, it could happen to you.”

    And it was passed down from generation to generation. Eventually, written versions were available.

    I’m sure there would have been a deadly hook on a car door handle somewhere in this if ’57 Chevys existed at the time.

  9. 9

    Suppose that the voices in Moses’ head had been a little less malevolent, and he had given to his people these rules:

    1. YOUR LIFE IS A FACET OF ALL LIFE. You share the common descent of DNA with all other living creatures. You are but one flower on the tree of life – distinct but inexorably connected to all other life. This common web of life is what sustains you and all you see around you – honor it, treasure it, nurture it. That you have become self-aware is a milestone that reinforces your bond to the earth, it does not sunder the bond or elevate you above other life, but rather it confers a responsibility to stewardship – embrace this.
    2. LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Treat all people as you yourself would wish to be treated. Find in your soul the roots of compassion and generosity and let these motivate your actions. Find in your soul the joy that comes from reaching beyond boundaries and making welcome and safe the person you would call ‘other’. Have the courage to be kind.
    3. DO NOT KILL EACH OTHER. This is of course a corollary to #1 and #2 above, as are all subsequent Commandments, but needs to be stated and restated in the strongest possible terms. This means do not wage war, and do not kill in vengeance. By extension, do not harm each other, raise weapons against each other, threaten or coerce each other. It’s really not that hard to be a bonobo and not a chimpanzee.
    4. SHARE. What, you weren’t listening in kindergarten? Then listen up now – you’re all in the same boat and share the same fate. You’re all brothers and sisters, bound to each other and to all life. Greed and unbridled acquisitiveness are nasty, unbecoming traits – avoid these. Poverty is a sign that too few of you have too much stuff. Structure your societies to nurture everyone’s gifts and abilities to contribute, and ensure that no one goes without.
    5. RELAX. Remember leisure is the source of joy. Rest nourishes and replenishes the soul. Do not give into the temptation to toil and acquire and dominate to the exclusion of all else, for you will lose your soul.
    6. WORK HARD. Stretch the bounds of your bodies and your minds, challenge yourselves and each other to surpass your limits. Master the known that has been passed down to you, and discover the unknown. Find your joy, your mission, your talent and pursue it to the limits of your abilities. Learn and teach, build, create, discover – grow tired with the effort, but do not forget #5.
    7. RESPECT. Respect yourself and each other. The truth and beauty of the universe is contained in, and reflected by, every quark and photon, every atom and every sun, every leaf and every person. See the good, and the God, in yourself and in each of your fellow humans, and fellow animals, and fellow life in all your world, and act accordingly.
    8. BE COURAGEOUS. Do not lose yourself to greed or to fear or to avenging the injuries that come with being alive. Meet the adventure of life with joy and expectation and eagerness. Try new things.

    What a different world we might be living in now.

  10. 10

    @7, So if God were to speak to me and tells me to stone you to death you have no problem with that? Cool. Where do you live? I’ll be right over with a truck full of rocks and a couple of drinking buddies.

  11. 11

    8. jcricket spews:

    Maybe this never really happened and is the ancient Hebrews’ version of an urban legend

    Rather it is good for military discipline.

    Kill a stranger to show you are serious about your God given laws. Let your followers carry out the punishment to drive home the lesson. And since no one your people knew was killed, no resentment from your followers and no harm done to your leadership.

  12. 12

    What if you had a robot and it collected wood on the Sabbath — stone, not stone?

    Before you answer, the Japanese (shintoism) are animists and believe that all things — including man made things — have a soul. The Japs are getting scary good at “humanizing” robots. This one is damn fine looking and sings:

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlan.....igion.html

    Collecting wood? Piece of cake.

    Very soon: Near lifelike sex partner for garden variety republican perverts who get all skeezed up about contact with an actual human (with all their nasty, smelly, deseased excretions)?

  13. 13

    More examples of limp-dick Goldy Tenderhands and his Jewish inferiority complex and blatant hatred of Christianity. Disgusting, but expected.

    Happy Sunday all!

  14. 14

    Good passage today Goldy.

    What an excellent example of that strong, loving, personal God of grace and mercy the Christians think they are worshiping.

    Could Jesus have possibly been talking about the same guy?

  15. 15

    @11

    I can see where a story of killing ‘the other’ who is ‘not like us’ is so appealing today-especially with the right wing crowd.

    But whatever telling the story is intended to reinforce, social or military discipline, does not support a contention that it ever really happened.

    If it ever happened at all, witnessing or even participating in it affected only those present. Thereafter, its value was the same as urban legend: hearing about it from those a bit older than the listener, and serving as a warning against [fill in the blank].

    Who is to say that the tribe did not find someone gathering wood, go all mob-crazy on his ass and kill him because he was from another tribe, and then make up the Moses justification later on? Who really knows?

    Ascribing motives to people for actions that may or may not have happened thousands of years ago might be a bit of rationalization for beliefs held today.

    As such, I tend to not take them too seriously as historical facts.

  16. 16

    In reality, this is exactly the kind of God the Christian Right loves to contemplate. One who quickly punishes those who don’t follow his commands with and horrible & painful death.

    Just read some of Puddy’s replies. He can’t wait.

  17. 17

    Best part about the whole story for the Christian Right is that: they get to participate in delivering God’s wrath. Yes, they actually get to cast the stones to extinguish another human life, and do so with God’s full blessing.

  19. 19

    (parody) Rove 15:32-36
    While the Republicans were in the congress, a Representative was found talking to Democrats. Those who found him talking brought him to Rush and Beck and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Rove said to Rush, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Rove commanded Rush.(/parody)

  20. 20

    It happens, fortunately it seems to me, that the Biblical record is heavily loaded on the side of the Progressive Independents.

    That’s from the religulous left’s Henry Wallace, who came within a gnat’s asspimple of becoming president in 1945.

    Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. — aka Dr. Laura — wrote this about St. Henry:

    For, as both scientist and mystic, both politician and prophet, both opportunist and idealist, Wallace was split down the middle. This interior division produced not creative tension but a wavering and tormented dissociation which he sought constantly to exorcise by mysticism or to bridge by rhetoric. When contradictions existed, in himself or in the world, they could always be resolved, he appeared to feel, by higher — which ordinarily meant foggier — formulations. …

    “He gives me an eerie feeling that he really isn’t listening when I talk with him,” said one of his writers. … An old-time politician observed, “Henry’s the sort that keeps you guessing as to whether he’s going to deliver a sermon or wet the bed.”

  21. 21

    Then religious leftist holy man Henry Wallace tried to become president the old-fashioned way in 1948:

    As the 1948 Presidential race got underway, accusations were made that Wallace and his Progressive party, perhaps inadvertently, had fallen under communist control. …

    In Scoundrel Time [Lillian] Hellman writes only briefly of her participation in the Wallace campaign. She writes that Wallace pulled her aside after a meeting to ask if the rumors were true that communists sat on his governing committee. Hellman laughed and said of course they did, but that they were obvious and harmless. Wallace made no comment. …

    Having made this suspect assertion in Scoundrel Time, Hellman went on to accuse Henry Wallace of a similar dishonesty. She was perplexed, she wrote, when a short time after the election Wallace denied knowledge of communist participation in his campaign; she knew he was lying, she said, because she had told him of it.

    – From William Wright’s bio of Hellman, pages 216 – 217

    The scoundrels Hellman referred to were American conservatives and anti-communists, the “paranoid” patriots who were “hysterical” witch hunters of non-existent American reds. Perhaps it’s useful, decades after the fact, to finally set the record straight. To finally have the New Yorker, almost 60 years after the death of Stalin, finally tell the truth about Stalin. To have the New York Times, almost 60 years after the Rosenbergs, finally tell the truth about their guilt in stealing our atomic secrets and sending them to Stalin.

    To finally tell the truth about FDR’s vice president, Henry Wallace, who told us after FDR’s death that the Cold War was all our fault for being mean to FDR’s Uncle Joe in the Kremlin.

  22. 22

    But nevermind Mad Hatter Tea Party Henry Wallace …

    Lew Douglas was emerging as an increasingly influential figure. … fight for government economy [was] part of his larger belief that economic order — indeed, civilization itself — rested on fiscal credit. … Under the spendthrift Hoover administraiton, Douglas declared, America had been going “the identical way that Germany went in the years just after the war.” The only hope was a drastic reversal in government fiscal policy. …

    Nor did Douglas want to balance the budget by increasing taxes. A larger tax burden, he felt, would have economic effects almost as deplorable as deficit spending itself. The solution was to cut government spending — to taper off subsidies …

    For Douglas, the essence of the Roosevelt program was the pledge, rashly made in a speech at Pittsburgh during the 1932 campaign, to reduce the cost of government 25 per cent — to move toward what Roosevelt had then called “the one sound foundation of permanent economic recovery — a complete and honest balancing of the Federal budget.” …

    The existence of the staggering deficit of five billion dollars had increased economic stagnation, multiplied the unemployed, and contributed to the banking collapse. Employment and economic health could only rest on national credit. “Too often in recent history,” the President warned sententiously “liberal govenrments have been wrecked on rocks of loose fiscal policy.“

    Again, that’s from Arthur M. (Laura) Schlesinger, Jr. Jr. The maker of the rash pledge in Pittsburgh was Franklin D. Roosevelt, aka Rufus T. Firefly.

  23. 23

    One more time, here’s JFK’s tax cutting for the Rich Kennedys:

    Tax reduction thus sets off a process that can bring gains for everyone, gains won by marshalling resources that would otherwise stand idle—workers without jobs and farm and factory capacity without markets. Yet many taxpayers seemed prepared to deny the nation the fruits of tax reduction because they question the financial soundness of reducing taxes when the federal budget is already in deficit. Let me make clear why, in today’s economy, fiscal prudence and responsibility call for tax reduction even if it temporarily enlarged the federal deficit—why reducing taxes is the best way open to us to increase revenues.

    —President John F. Kennedy,
    Economic Report of the President,
    January 1963

    If any of you liberal Democrat bedwetters wants to yammer about static analysis and dynamic analysis, please recall that Rush Limbaugh got there first.

  25. 25

    HNMT ought to love all those liberals in the G20. Halve the deficits by 2013 – no higher priority it would seem.

    Now how do you do that??? Hmmm. Constrain wage growth check, cut social programs double check..

    Any words about taxation in that 20 page document?

    Nope not a word.. Not for cutting them. Certainly not for raising them on those who benefited the most from the past 30 or so years of “neo-liberalism”.

  27. 27

    I don’t think anyone should work on the Sabbath, ever. I don’t work on the Sabbath! Or any other day, either. Why work? Working doesn’t pay. You get ahead in our system by pushing money nobody owns in meaningless circles, round and round. That’s what bankers and stockbrokers do, and look how they live! A lot better than the working class. Well, that’s what I do too! I buy stocks cheap and sell them dear. I don’t add any value, I just wait until the market adds price, then I add cash to my pockets! That’s how you really make money in today’s economy. Working and producing stuff is so yesterday.

  28. 28

    If someone figured out a way to securitize work it might be worth something in the marketplace. Then Wall Street types could make money by swapping work futures using your pension funds as capital.

  32. 32

    Oh dear. HNMT’s little darling YLB is straining our brain with her deep discussion of debt and taxes, the elemental facts of life.

    It’s all too too far above my pay grade, just like abortion and Obama at Rick Warren’s superchurch. Best to turn these difficult issues over to God, so she can let Rielle Rabbit sort them out.

  33. 33

    Mark1 @13,

    Thanks for demonstrating so clearly the spirit of HA Bible Study.

    See, when righties quote the Bible out of context to support their anti-gay, anti-woman agenda, we’re supposed to be tolerant and respectful of their faith. But when I quote the Bible, without comment, it’s an example of my “blatant hatred of Christianity.”

    How exactly does that work, Mark? And why is it that a simple quoting of Bible verse seems to threaten and offend you so much? Is your faith that weak?

  34. 34

    @23 re: Kennedy and Tax rates
    Well if you bothered to check out the tax rates at that time, you would notice they were high, very high. Highlights were: top rate of 91% for income over $300,000, 50% starting at $16,000, and 20% was the bottom rate.
    Rush would be screaming bloody murder all day long if you suggested bringing those rates back.

    Tax rates are a balancing act; too low and society/government can’t function, too high and you kill the economy.

  36. 36

    Rabbit

    GREAT POST …

    So lets see, the Unions could include a 10% investment fee in every contract. Those fees would them be capitalized as securities. They would be called Labor Initiatives.

  37. 37

    It is an allegory about a libertarian trying to get ahead, but running into all of those zionist zealots, who remind him that he is messing with their property and time. Zealots 1: Libertarian 0…

  38. 38

    Sadly, Moses got confused and thought God was upset about breaking the Sabbath, but it was really about upsetting the carbon cycle by gathering wood for fuel. God realized that if those silly Israelites kept at it, in a few thousand years they’d have knocked His beautiful atmospheric heat system all out of whack, just when He’d gotten it the way He liked it.

  39. 39

    35. Blockhead Beckoner spews:
    @30

    You missed the point, the stoning was not on the sabbath.

    No wonder libs can’t figger it out, you can not read/

    Oh Blockhead who can’t spell, where in the passage does it say the stoning was not on the Sabbath day? Please enlighten us, you who are so wise about scripture.

  40. 40

    “Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.”

    Just another fine example of why all religions are absolutely bat-shit crazy. When people absolutely believe this shit, that’s when we have problems. What about just following the Golden Rule and leaving all the crazy shit behind? Personally, I’m leaning towards Wicca as a religious choice just because Judaism, Christianity and Islam are so stark-raving criminally insane.

  41. 41

    Where does one find (much less gather) wood in the desert?

    Side note to Beckoner @7:

    While wandering for 40 years in the desert, the Israelites were decidedly not at war. It wasn’t until they arrived in Canaan — under Joshua, not Moses — that they went to war.

  42. 42

    @39 Ekim ..

    Dumbdungbeetle .. Read the passage, it does not say ANYTHING about stoning anyone on the Sabbath.

    Why should it need to?

    To please an illiterate pixel wasting addict like yourself?

  43. 43

    @41 Ninnie in Seattle

    Of course they were at war. They left Egypt and set out to conquer the Palestinians living in God’s land. The Hebrews were organized by Joshua and drilled so that, once they crossed the border shock and awe!

  44. 44

    @40 PI

    In the defense of Judaism, JEWS do not read the Torah this way.

    The overly literal reading is something your buddies the Christians invented. For about 2500 years, even Orthodox Jews have insistes that the Torah needs to be read with ALL the knowledge w ehave .. traditions, science included.

    Perhaps this is why it takes so few of us to dominate the Nobels in science? It must be hard to do science when any experiment may give the wrong answer.

  45. 45

    From the Gospel According to B.O.:

    We will be able! To look back! And tell our children! That this was the moment! When we began to provide care for the sick! When the rise of the oceans! Began to slow! And our planet! Began to heal!

    He-alll! He-alll! Makes you think of an Oral Roberts tent revival, don’t it? But that’s not Oral Roberts. That’s your boy St. ‘Bama in St. Paul, 2008, while waiting for you progressive bedwetters, with deep respect, to genuflect fgenuflect genuflect.

    Progressive bedwetters are messianic bedwetters.

    Discuss.

  48. 48

    In the beginning, when God tried to teach the children of Abraham to have a sense of humor, they thought God was serious. You gotta problem with stick gathering on Saturday? Waddaya gunna do? Kill somebody? Whaat? Take my wife. Please.

    Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Answer: Too many conservatives, the worst sort that don’t play well with others. More homophobes than homosexuals. Log cabin homosexuals were homophobes. Heterosexuals were heterophobic. Not very good feng shui.

  49. 49

    @HA Barackolatry

    What, pray tell, is a “messianic bedwetter.”

    By the way, giving the human passion for relics, you might want to do a Google Earth search for community latrines. These were normative among my people of Nazareth during the time of Jesus.

    But then, your image of Me is, well not very much in My image and I made you!

    I am that I am.

  50. 50

    42. Ol’ Bonerhead Beckoner spews:

    @39 Ekim ..

    Read the passage, it does not say ANYTHING about stoning anyone on the Sabbath.

    Why should it need to?

    To please an illiterate pixel wasting addict like yourself?

    Ol’ ignorant bonerhead,

    I was just asking for you to explain your reasoning that the stoning did not happen on the Sabbath. Just as I thought. You have none.

  51. 51

    @48 Wells

    Why did I destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

    For the same reason I destroyed the armies of Egypt, the inmates of Buchenwald, the children of mothers with AIDs, Napoleon’s Russian army, the ‘san of South Africa, the Arapaho, the dwellers of the twin towers, the blasphemers killed in the Crusades, the slaves who fell crossing rainbow bridge, Amelia Earhart, Hitler, Lincoln, Sonny Bono, Rabbi Akiba, Son of God Jesus, Joan of Arc,………

    All these events have lessons to teach, if you can learn.

    I am that I am

    I am that I am.

  52. 52

    @51, glad you could find the time today, with all the worshipers praying for touchdowns and lottery tickets it is a wonder you find the time.

  53. 53

    @23 What, exactly, is “static” analysis? And as far as Rusbo goes, I think JFK got there first. But please note that JFK said cutting taxes would increase the federal deficit.

    It’s a conservative mantra that cutting taxes increases federal revenues. While this can theoretically be true, in a democracy, it’s almost always false. Here’s how it works.

    Visualize a continuum with a 0% tax rate at one end and a 100% tax rate at the other end. At 0% taxation, government revenues are $0, because no taxes are being collected. At 100% taxation, government revenues also are $0, because there is no economic activity due to lack of incentive. Somewhere in between is a point at which you maximize goverment revenues. At this point, either cutting or raising taxes will reduce government revenue. In a democracy, where voters can choose their leaders and affect government policies (including tax policies), actual tax rates almost always will be less than this midpoint, because voters generally will not tolerate a level of taxation that high. Thus, cutting taxes usually results in loss of revenue.

    This is easily demonstrated by actual federal revenue statistics (not “statics”). If you look them up on official government databases, you’ll find federal revenues fell, not rose, after the Bush tax cuts.

  54. 54

    @52 mr. Baker

    You are welcome.

    However, as an eternal God, time is … well time is not of my essence.

    I am that I am.

  57. 57

    SJ @ 44

    The overly literal reading is something your buddies the Christians invented. For about 2500 years, even Orthodox Jews have insistes that the Torah needs to be read with ALL the knowledge w ehave .. traditions, science included.

    So were the Jews still stoning women for adultery 2000 years ago? There is a story in the New Testament about Jesus stopping some rather Orthodox Jews from stoning a woman accused of adultery. Now, you may believe this story is something that Jesus never did, or even that Jesus never existed. Fair enough. But was this method of capital punishment still carried out by religious Jews 2000 years ago for adultery?

  58. 58

    What, exactly, is “static” analysis?

    Static analysis, static projection, and static scoring are terms for simplified analysis wherein the effect of an immediate change to a system is calculated without respect to the longer term response of the system to that change. Such analysis typically produces poor correlation to empirical results.

    Its opposite, dynamic analysis or dynamic scoring, is an attempt to take into account how the system is likely to respond to the change. One common use of these terms is budget policy in the United States[1], although it also occurs in many other statistical disputes.

    What, exactly, is a Roger Rabbit, and why is there a disordered deficit of attention between his floppy ears?

  59. 59

    Statics and dynamics, as every schoolboy knows, are fundamental analytic tools of engineering. Economics tried to masquerade as a real science by morphing into econometrics. Then, trying to pretend to be useful, economics pretended to be as useful as engineering by pretending to use engineering’s analytic tools. Perhaps that’s why some liberal retard responded to a previous post about JFK tax cuts by pretending to have something useful to say about static vs. dynamic analyses, a meme probably stolen from Rush Limbaugh.

    Roger Rabbit tries to show that tax cuts cannot yield optimal (highest possible) revenues. Instead of dealing with the real world — in which JFK tax cuts and Reagan tax cuts and GWB tax cuts either caused or corresponded to increased federal tax receipts — Rabbit prefers to deal with a thoughtless thought experiment. Typical.

    Note from the link that I haven’t given in to roger-style confirmation bias. I havent selected links that support my point of view. Sift through the array, do your own thinking, and come to your own conclusions. But remember that the only supportable conclusion that tax cuts in the real world increase revenues to the leviathan state. Oh well.

  60. 60

    @57 Richard Pope

    The overly literal reading is something your buddies the Christians invented. For about 2500 years, even Orthodox Jews have insisted that the Torah needs to be read with ALL the knowledge we have .. traditions, science included.

    So were the Jews still stoning women for adultery 2000 years ago? There is a story in the New Testament about Jesus stopping some rather Orthodox Jews from stoning a woman accused of adultery

    .

    Richard,

    You missed my point. I referred to the literal interpretation of Torah, not to what punishments were normal 2000 years ago.

    A major part of the message of the Pharisees was that Torah had to be interpreted in the light of tradition and other sorts of knowledge. That concept led to the writing of the Talmud, an extraordinary effort to use rational thought to understand the Torah. Literalism, in the Christian sense, has never been a major part of Judaism except for one sect, the Karaites. BTW, that sect sought and was given protection by the Nazis!

    As for whether woman were still being stoned for adultery during Jesus’ time, I do not know. Blasphemers, however, were stoned to death and one piece of evidence that the Jesus story is a fiction intended to protect the Romans, is that the Sanhedrin could have had Jesus stoned to death if, as the Christian story claims, he had misused the name of God.

    Finally, the historical (as opposed to Christian Bible) record makes it very unlikley that the Jesus of the Christian bible existed. There are no contemporary writings about a figure of his stature, the claim to a virgin birth (other than being heresy) would have led to others calling him a bastard, Roman records do not refer to him, and his supposedly revolutionary preachings were actually rather main stream among the Pharisees.

    My own hunch is that the Pharisees created the first non violent resistance. This affected not only the Jews in occupied Israel, but the every large expatriate community across the Roman world as well as a large number of people looking for a form of resistance to the oppressive culture of the Romans.

    Jesus, whether he existed as a real character or not, was metamorphed by Paul into a deity well within the traditions of most of the occupied people. Paul’s Jesus is clearly a Greek deity figure, son of a virgin,dad was a deity who screwed a woman, miracles, descent into hell, ascent to the god hood, sitting in judgment over the gates of heaven and hell, etc. This, plus the Pharisaic ideas of passive resistance would have been broadly attractive to the people living under the rather barbaric rule of the Romans.

    Back to the Jews, after the Romans destroyed the Temple, we morphed into something utterly different than Paul’s vision. Adhesion to the Torah was strengthened and became the core of Judaism. The rabbis evolved, not as priests or clergy in the Christian sense, but as experts in understanding the Torah .. in the light of the real world. They, the Rabbis, evolved many of the ideas modern humanists take for granted .. including the primacy of science over other forms of revelation and the concept of human law.

    Hope this helps!

    I will cross post it at SJ in case you want to continue the discussion.

    Hope this helps.

  61. 61

    @23…

    Top marginal tax rates dropped from 91% in 1963 all the way down to 77% in 1964.

    I look forward to seeing those 1964 tax rates again.

  62. 62

    They could have told the man that if he continued to work on the Sabbath, the Gypsies would kidnap his children.

  63. 63

    re 59: Given that the stated goal of political conservatives is to weaken the state, would it not make more sense to tax the rich at a higher rate, as this would actually decrease revenues?

  64. 64

    re 59: By the way (your reference to Hobbes)is ridiculous, in that the philosophy of the fornding fathers was more in line with Locke than Hobbes.

    How do I know this? Like the 5 conservative members of SCOTA, I am a time travelling mind-reader.

  65. 65

    SJ @44,

    “Perhaps this is why it takes so few of us to dominate the Nobels in science? It must be hard to do science when any experiment may give the wrong answer.”

    Yeah, but then there’s the issue of cutting off the ends of wee-wees. What the fuck is THAT all about?

  67. 67

    I haven’t selected links that support my point of view. Sift through the array, do your own thinking, and come to your own conclusions. But remember that the only supportable conclusion is that tax cuts in the real world increase revenues to the leviathan state. Oh well.

  69. 69

    Nah, God is just cross-posting on SJ’s blog. I actually think it’s rather big of SJ to let her do that.

  71. 71

    Actually you are confused.

    The post from God above never claims to be SJ. Rather it refers to what SJ had said about MY word.

    The point I made in the response is that neither I nor the Jews ever claimed that the Torah was My explicit word.

    So, when SJ posted over at his blog, all he was doing was copying My post here, in obedience to My instruction that he do so since this blog is, after all, the Seattle Jewish blog.

    If you have trouble understanding all this, I suggest you read another Jew .. Maimonides. He wrote “A Guide to the Perplexed that I rather fancy as a good human effort to understand My word.

    I am that I am.

  72. 72

    @ 65. Politically Incorrect

    “Perhaps this is why it takes so few of us to dominate the Nobels in science? It must be hard to do science when any experiment may give the wrong answer.”

    Yeah, but then there’s the issue of cutting off the ends of wee-wees. What the fuck is THAT all about?

    I told My chosen people to do this. Hardly an act that should threaten a big manly ape like yourself!

    I am that I am.

  73. 73

    Ha. I’m not having any problem understanding that you can’t keep your socks straight, SJ. Just give up the charade already, you’re busted.

  74. 74

    @60

    Sorry, but I did not post at the SJ blog.

    Unlike my prior revelations, revelations at HA are easily copied. SJ is acting no differently than many other scribes.

    Would you rather he stated that the post at HA was My word?

    Why not ask him yourself at SJ?

  75. 75

    SJ, come on, quit playing this silly game. “God” said @60,

    I will cross post it at SJ in case you want to continue the discussion.

    And there it is at SJ, as written by SJ, not “copied”.

    Do you really want “God” to have the reputation of being a liar?

  76. 76

    re 67: Then the only logical conclusion is that no taxes would produce the most tax revenue.

  77. 77

    only Ball-Less Goofy would announce that as the only logical conclusion..

  78. 78

    @75 rob

    You can believe what you want.

    I have cross posted other Judaism related material from here before and will continue to do so. Certainly I should be more careful in attribution.

    As to whether God is a “liar”, that is the HA God, I humbly suggest you look for some specific statement he, she, it or they have made before you call anyone a liar.

    As for me, I have never claimed to be 0r not to be God but I can understand your wanting to believe that. Nor have I denied being God .. or for that matter denied being Lee, Puddy, Cynic, or any of the other cast of HA characters here. FWIW, Lee has posted as me. This is all part of the charm of blogs.

    This sort of problem is not unique to blogs.
    During WWII some of “Churchill’s” speeches were, I have read, given by an impersonator. Most politicians use speechwriters. MLK may have had a dream but we may never know who wrote Bush’s “war is over” speech.

    Of course, the “words” of Jesus have the same problem. Some think he was a sockpuppet for Paul.

    For that matter, how do I know you are not God?

    Unlike the mystery surrounding Jesus, there is an ultimate answer to the identity of God … Goldy knows.

    Maybe Goldy is God?

  79. 79

    SJ,

    classic, get busted, try to change to focus from you to something else.

    As to whether God is a “liar”, that is the HA God, I humbly suggest you look for some specific statement he, she, it or they have made before you call anyone a liar.

    OK, here you go:

    74. God spews:
    @60

    Sorry, but I did not post at the SJ blog.

    So let’s review: “God” @60 said “He” was going to cross post to your blog, and then @74 said “He” did not post at your blog. You’re tying yourself in knots trying to get around the facts, and it’s not working.

    Just quit with the sockpuppeting, SJ, it’s dishonest, and unbecoming of a man in your position.

  80. 80

    Oh, one more thing:

    Maybe Goldy is God?

    Right, you’ve given Goldy permission to post at your blog. You really think anyone’s stupid enough to believe that?

  81. 81

    re 77 —

    You know your a limp wristed girly-man metrosexual when….

    …you take a wide stance?
    …when you are head of the RNC?
    …when you are Arnold Coulter?

  82. 82

    re 77: Only a simpleton like you would see lowering taxes on the wealthy as the end all for economic stimulus.

    Also, it seems to me a little bit like a cowering dog begging for scraps at his master’s table to believe so abjectly in ‘trickle down’.

    Your emotional attachment to it has nothing to do with reason.

  83. 83

    God does not have permission to post at SJ’s blog.

    As for My identity, many have wanted to know that but, the answer is simple.

    I am that I am.

    As for Goldy,

    Don’t you think he is rather profane to be Me?
    He is what he is and

    Iam that I am.

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