Revelation 13:1-2
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Discuss.
sssphttt, sssphttt… that was some good shit, man!
Homosexuals rose from the Sea?
Purple haze all in my brain
Lately things they don’t seem the same
Actin’ funny, but I don’t know why
‘Scuse me while I kiss the sky
Interesting responses so far.
One does have to wonder, when the men of the early church got together and decided just what was in the canon, and what was to be relegated as apocrypha, what they were thinking. (or smoking)
My view is that the Bible is a fascinating historical/cultural artifact and really nothing more. While there are truly valuable teachings that we all can benefit from, ie, “Love your neighbor” and “Do unto others…”, it seems paradoxical that people who call themselves “Christian” seem most often the ones who have forgotten these lessons from their purported Messiah.
And then of course there’s the OT, which seems like nothing so much as a handy source of “god-given” justifications for excluding or vilifying any particular group you might choose. Its utility for this never seems to fail.
This goes to one of the teachings of Ellen White, founder of Ellen White’s religious cult, the SDA. According to White, the seven-headed beast from the sea is the papacy. America is the lamb-like beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11–18). America, through Clinton’s penis and Obama’s blackness, causes the world to worship the papacy by forcing people to worship on Sunday rather than Saturday. Then things really get ugly. A pissed-off Jesus comes back, the world comes to an end, Puddy and the KLOWN go to Heaven, and we don’t. Damn, we don’t even get to go to hell. Instead, our souls will be destroyed as Puddy and the KLOWN, perched on a cloud, laugh at us. This will no doubt really, really suck.
re 3: It’s: “…’scuse me while I kiss this guy.”
It’s all part of the secret gay agenda which has been hidden in plain sight since this earth began — a few thousand years ago.
God said it. I believe it. End of discussion!
Odie,
you sayin’ that Hendrix was god?
One of the more amusing aspects of Christianity is the incredible sense of self-importance its adherents attach to their own existence. They actually seem to believe this mythical “creator of the universe” watches over their personal thoughts and deeds each moment and will somehow reward or punish them for each and every decision they make. And yet they continue to make appallingly bad decisions.
All this manifests itself into their view that last book of the Biblical Canon was written about events that now will happen in their own lifetime.
Amazing!
@8, indeed.
I’ve found the contradiction of the infinite and perfect god engaging in petty and jealous behavior quite fascinating. On the one hand he is infinitely loving and forgiving, and on the other capable of violent rage and eternal condemnation to torture and terror.
He reflects the foibles of his followers suspiciously well.
THE SEVEN HORNS OF BLASPHEMY
But what is My truth?
Look around you, see for yourself:
I Global warming,
ignore the facts I show to your scientists, and you will perish.
II
Vainglory,
I am that I am, glorify the names you have GIVEN Me, and you will kill one each other.
III You are all one
I made one genome for man and bug, played on this theme to create the many forms of life and gave the texts to your scientists to read. .. Pretend I made many species and you will loose My gifts to you.
IV Water, oil and other gifts of the Earth are limited,
I made just so much and tell you how much I made. Ignore that and you will be cold and thirsty.
V. False Prophets provoke hate and deny Truth
There are always the false prophets who teach supremacy and exceptionalism. Stalin, Hitler, Beck, Mao, .. your voices of hate will lead you to valleys of corruption. Seek my true prophets and eschew those who claim to have exclusive rights to my words.
Do not trust the words of those who claim to speak for Me in ways others can not reproduce. My truths are eternal, he who says he has a unique revelation blasphemes against Me.
VI. I am all there is
Heaven, hell, Jesus, Zeus, Raven, Hades, Mithra, Chu Jung, Shiva, loca .. and all these Other’s names and imagined places, are your creations. Follow them, seek them, as you would a dream of fantasy but never believe these are My truths.
VII. Underlying all is beauty of mathematics, a vision of Me
True prophets ,, Feinman, Hawking, Bayes, Mendel, Darwin, have the gift of intellect, a gift to see the truth. Do not blaspheme against what they tell you of Me.
Is seven enough or merely a warning?
I am that I am.
Whatever that thing is, Sarah Palin and her gang of grizzly moms will keep it from immigrating.
@10 – So, professor, is art a genuine and authentic reflection of god’s truth?
If so, how do we trust artists, whose works are certainly not reproducible. (your V. above)?
#3 FTW.
Lib Scientist
Art, or its objects, are only symbols of the artist’s vision. Objects may or may not be reproducible. Is Ansel Adam’s “Half Dome” less of truth than a Rothko painting? Is the poetry Shakespeare less beautiful because his words are so easily reproduced?
There is no different beauty in the sculpture of Michelangelo of the words of Hawking. Their vision is the vision an infant has of its mother’s breast. Hawking and Michelangelo have the twin gifts of their ability to see truth and share it with you.
The greatest of artists, prophets, teachers and scientists are those who can help you see your own truth.
I am that I am.
Lib Scientist
Ask yourself, is the Christian’s Book of Revelations any more or less verifiable than the truths revealed by Darwin?
Why would I reveal one truth with tools accessible to all men and another truth that only the favored can see? Odd view of Me.
I am that I am.
@14, professor, you miss the point of my question, and take the opportunity to pontificate.
Your point ‘V.’ demands reproducibility as a measure of authenticity to god’s truth. You then equate great art with great science (which may well be true), but great art is certainly not reproducible.
@8 & 9, Oh hell, yeah. The only thing God created was hoardes of megalomanaics and narcissists proclaiming their greatness above everyone else (including others of their same strain of the disease).
Lib Sci:
Why do you say this? I have etchings by Picasso, prints by Rauschenberg, Miro, White, Adams, Hokosai, and wear a wedding ring cast from a ring carved 1000 years ago in Scandinavia.
As for less easily reproduced objects, I would love to have a copy of a Rothko and will once the technical challenge of an accurate reproduction is met.
Beyond all that, the reproducibility of art, like that of science, lies not in the objects created but in our ability as humans to perceive the reality conveyed to us by the artist, scientist or prophet.
By the way, I ave considerable talent at forgery. I am always happy to sign prints of works by Picasso for a fee far below the cost of your buyjng an original signature.
@18 – that’s SO obtuse.
Scientific reproducibility is a validation and verification process (as you should know) – to which you seemed to allude in your ‘god-speak’ above.
What you discuss about art is copying, not validation of the artistic vision.
Some day in the not too distant future the Book of Revelations will be made in to a really cool 3D movie that all the stoners will enjoy immensely.
@20
That’s an excellent idea!
Release the Kraken!
@20
Of course, the Christianists will pop a mutual aneurysm over the idea, and it will never happen. Just like the 2nd and 3rd parts of the “His Dark Materials” trilogy (Golden Compass being the first).
They ruin everybody’s fun.
@23 Liberal Scientist on 08/01/2010 at 11:37 am,
While it is iffy that Mel Gibson will be available for John, I’ve heard that Stephen Baldwin could be gotten on the cheap.
@24 Bwahahahaha
Perhaps Alec could be cast as well, as the antichrist – the fundies might allow that!
@19 Kib Sci
Sorry but your cultural petticoats are showing.
Objects have very different vaklues in different cultures.
In Japan , for example, the art of the ukiyoee was (and is) in the reproducibility of the original . Are my Picasso etchings less valuable because they were created in multiples?
Is a forged Rembrandt less stimulating to nyou if you do not know it is forged?
@4,
“My view is that the Bible is a fascinating historical/cultural artifact and really nothing more.”
Agreed. The Bible is a nice “story,” but shouldn’t be taken too literally. What I can’t figure out why Revelations is even in the Bible. It was written by some hermit living in a cave 90 years after Jesus died!
Emperor Constantine, who never gave up his Pagan gods, pretty much chose what was going to be the Christian Church’s canon, so he had a lot of self-interest at stake. Does anyone out there believe the Bible is the “Word of God” and not the compilations of a bunch of “churchmen” and a Pagan emperor, all done to benefit both?
@27 Oh, yeah. I think every move by the organized ‘church’ is at least in part a political/power play. It’s in the nature of organizations to exhibit that sort of self-interest, I think.
@26
The entertaining:tedious ratio in conversation with you grows unfavorable.
It’s getting sunny outside – rather be there.
Hasta la bye-bye.
And then god said, “Repair Action: Boot configuration data store repair
Result: Failed. Error code = 0x490”
Ooops, looks like god will have get back to you after I kick the shit out of machine.
The verdict wasn’t even close. Humanity had its chance but the defense was weak. No lessons learned, no remorse for its crime.
Conviction. The punishment: extinction by slow poison.
In 500,000 years, when all evidence of our existence is gone, God will prepare Her world for another.
Will that world have better computing?
And Nutella?
Hey SJ, why so silent on Lee’s $10,000 challenge?
Sounds like ManBearPig. Excelsior!
@33 Worf
Lee and 10k challenge?
? I did not see it.
I suspect it is is some thread that I too gt bored with. If you want to bring it ti my attention, please do!
This is a fun read, sorry I couldn’t hang around this morning.
I’m not religious. I despise dogmatic belief systems. They cause stagnation and decay in the advance of human intellect and creativity. They tend to suppress knowledge even when such knowledge would advance the dogma.
This passage could describe any tyrant in modern and medieval times.
The “sea” could mean anything. The sea of humanity, the sea of conflicting voices.
“The Beast, like unto a leopard”.
Leopards are sleek, and fast, and strong. Cagey, they wait for the best opportunity to kill. They hunt methodically because they also have low stamina.
“And his feet were that of a bear.”
Bears plod, they run with an amazing speed even though they always seem to look like they’re going to stub their toes on something. But otherwise, they just mosey along without a care in the world. They have no fingers, so their feet are clumsy when used to accomplish tasks. It is more brute force than finesse when working to feed themselves.
“and his mouth as the mouth of a lion”
What is a “Lion” in the context of human history? An aggressor, strong, violent and ruthless, especially towards each other. Kings have always been decribed as “Lions” when they were expanding their kingdoms and empires. Conquor and subjugate. That is the historical description of kingdoms in every age. The lions mouth is huge, full of nasty sharp pointy teeth. Terrifying up close.
“and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
What is the dragon? In modern times, this could be a pretty good description of the military-industrial complex. The giant Banks. The oil and gas companies. The corporate media. Dragons are always mysterious, powerful, often violent, and always terribly evil.
Smaug, in the J.R.R. book was an old, grouchy and violent character, with a history of destroying everything standing in his path to aquire wealth. He spends the larger part of his lifetime, hoarding and guarding that gigantic pile of gems and other treasures he had so violently aquired, refusing to leave it until deliberately insulted by a diminutive character, seemingly the weakest, to provoke a violent reaction that would lead to his death.
What kind of person does all this describe?
Tolkein, being a man who devoted his entire lifetime to the study of myth, was likely very aware of this passage, and was able to fold it very neatly into the Norse mythology he’d spent so much time researching. I would think he would be very interested to see what this “modern world” has wrought for itself.
Interesting choice today there, Goldy.
The Bible is a good book, written by men, for men, about the Christian God. That’s all.
It’s only sacred to those who consider it so. To others, it’s just another doorstop.
The same holds true for all ‘sacred texts’. What is sacred to one may not be sacred to another.
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are basically all the same. Believe as I do or suffer the consequences. Their version of religious freedom is allowing non-believers to freely choose between Dogma or the point of a sword.
That’s what ‘Freedom of Religion’ means to the Faithful.
David Acquarius
Islam and Christianity stand alone in this one. Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism … most religion Not BASED ON THE JESUS STORY,do not practice forced conversion or even promise that the Deity will reap revenge on the unbelievers.
Perhaps this is related to the origins of Islam and Christianity from the womb of the Roman Empire?
Judaism does teach that it has the truth, BUT Jews discourage conversion and even recognize highly moral “goyem” as holier than Jews. On such person, Cyrus the Great, is even given tghe title “messiah.’
Or maybe having a lomg word/cross and scimitar/crescent as yput holy symbols reveals something deeper?
Religion’s been at the heart of most wars/conflicts since Alley Oop.
As I look at the globe, I see bloodshed on every continent that can be traced back to a few men in robes (or shawls or beads or WTF) telling the faithful that their enemy is the other guy, the one who doesn’t believe as ‘we’ do. It may not be conversion per se, but it’s still wrong.
The ‘Jesus Story’ is just Christianity’s angle. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, even atheists have found bullshit reasons to kill their neighbor. It may be forced conversion: “Hear the Word of God or die”. It might be retribution: “You killed my grandfather because he wouldn’t convert so I kill you.” Or it might be greed: “These non-believers are dangerous. We should kill them and take their stuff.”
At the heart of it all, is religion.
Hey God,
Are we really going to have a tsunami that wipes out the coast on the 9th? Some folks who claim to be in on your plans seem to think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeLmXav_Gic
Re 40
While understanding your frustration, I simply don’t agree with your conclusion. Demagogues have used religion as a means to acquire power. This doesn’t invalidate faith. It indicts those who would use faith as a vehicle to personal power, land or resource capture and so on.
Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler were men of no faith, do you blame them for the Khmer Rouge, the Holocaust and for the atrocities of the Soviet government?
You say it yourself, even atheists have looked for an excuse for violence. This is one of the less appealing traits of human nature. Nevertheless, it isn’t inextricably linked to another human trait, the search for meaning in the world through faith.
Great works of art, literature and architecture have been inspired by an artists conception of the divine. Great centers of learning have been founded by ecclesiastical orders. On the individual level people like Mother Theresa selflessly lived and ministered in the ghettos of Calcutta because of her perception of what you derisively call the ‘Jesus Story.’
I’m not trying to proselytize. You have every right to believe that faith is a delusion. I have every right to believe the lack of it a tragic thing for a man to have to live through. But you don’t have the right to misrepresent sincere men and women who believe they are seeking a path to God as warmongers and murderers.
Re 39
“Islam and Christianity stand alone in this one. Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism … most religion Not BASED ON THE JESUS STORY,do not practice forced conversion or even promise that the Deity will reap revenge on the unbelievers..”
SJ, I don’t pretend to understand or speak to what the faiths you mention believe, as opposed to your incongruous grouping of Islam with Christianity.
Islam and Christianity are incompatible theologically. So far as I understand Christ is viewed as a prophet in Islam, but not the Messiah, an aspect of God. Beyond that I won’t venture to say what Islam believes about conversion, forced or otherwise.
I can say that your interpretation of Christianity is mistaken. At the heart of Christianity is the free choice of an individual to accept the ‘Jesus Story.’ Every basic principle in the New Testament is antithetical to forced conversion. I don’t ask you or David or anyone else to accept the principles of the faith. That’s your business. I do ask that you not misrepresent it.
@43 Lost in the Sea of Blue
Whatever you (or I, or any early Christian) may see as the heart of Christianity, Christianity has PRACTICED forced conversion since the time it became the Roman state religion.
Forced conversion was, moreover, not limited to the Roman Church. The sword, the stake, and missionary access to food, education and health have been the tools of conversion by Lutherans, Puritans, Calvinists, until our own time. Though perhaps not a matter of life and death, other forms of force were used until recently at the US Air Force Academy.
The great expansion of Christianity was under exactly this sort of force.
Islam’s attitude was patterned after Christianity. Like his Christian models, the Prophet claimed to have the one and only truth. Unbelievers were to convert, be killed or live in subservient roles.
As to whether Islam and Christianity are incompatible, I tend to agree with you. Islam is a strict form of monotheism. If Christianity requires a man/god, then .. by Islamic standards, Christians are idolaters. Of course, not all Christina sects regard Jesus as a Deity.
More LSIB
This is certainly true, but Islam and Christianity are unique in being used by demagogues to suppress other peoples.
Well, Stalin and Hitler certainly had faith .. we could argue about whether that motivated them. BTW .. Doctrinaire Communism is very much a religious faith since it requires acceptance of beliefs w/o resort to science.
What is your point? Is there ANY example of an atheist making war in the name of atheism???
True .. as well as by the horrors of war, the beauties of nature, and by sheer human emotion. Was Picasso less of an artist because he was an atheist???
This seems like a bit of a myth. Certainly in our own day and for most f the modern era, NO religous school has been kin the top ranks.
Get thee to Amazon … from one review of her collected correspondence:
SJ @44
The great expansion of Christianity was NOT under forced conversion. Yes it took root under Constantine, but what of that? How many religions strongly encouraged by a king or dictator have come in gone in the past two millenia. Yet Christianity spread for those 2000 years, not because of the force, but because of the message.
As for Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ, I confess that one escapes me. Either a person does believe in Christs divinity and is Christian in large part because of that assumption, or doesn’t and isn’t.
@45
Cynical utilisation of a religious brand to force a war hardly is limited to either Islam or Christianity, whatever you may believe. They can do this in part because of the violence innate in human beings, irrespective of their faiths. That was all I meant by referencing either those 3 notable monsters, or atheists. And I am in no way equating the two, so you know.
And of course love and awe can exist apart from religion and inspire art. But to deny the role of faith in many artists past and present would not be accurate.
Mother Theresa lived in incredible squalor and human misery and had a few crisis of faith? Sorry, I don’t find this amazing. What the authors of the that book are attempting will work. They will belittle both the lady and her faith in the minds of the poorly educated. (In other words most folks, and nearly anyone publicly educated in the past 2 decades.) I won’t make any judgements about her spiritual state, as they aren’t mine to make in any sense. I will say a healthy faith is one that questions, struggles and finds itself again for many people.
@42
Religion and faith are not the same. I have faith, a spiritual nature that must be nurtured as my body does. I believe everyone has this, even atheists. (Logic and reason is their faith)
Each of us look to our experiences, our thoughts, and the people around us to shape our ‘faith’. We seek context from others to validate or invalidate ideas that we find along our path. This socializes the search for faith.
When folks of a similar set of ideas come together, we call it a congregation. We share, debate, disassemble, reconstruct and lay bare our beliefs to arrive at a set of spiritual principles.
But through it all, at our core, is our own faith. It may be similar to others but never the same. There are always differences, places where we part company with our congregation. Faith is as individual as our fingerprints.
However, take faith – mix politics, ignorance, laziness, and fear and you get religion.
LSIB
You need to read some history.
To be utterly fair, you and I may disagree on the meaning of “force.” Christian missionaries dispensing food and offering slaves a way to explain their misery are also forms of forced conversion.
When Islam exploded, no one was “forced to convert.” However, only Muslims could get the full benefits of Sharia and non Muslims were subject to onerous rules. BTW … the great bulk of the converts to Islam were, at that time, Christians.
Read Jefferson, Franklin, Obama, Tillich, …..
attend services at a Friends Meeting.
Of course. Religion HAS been a source for good, great good. MLK, Jefferson, Newton, Buddha, the Dali Lama, Michelangelo, Chavez, Ha Levi, Averoes
The issue is not whether there is good in religion, the issue is whether Islam and Christianity have done great harm as well.
The author of the book is Mother Theresa. The book was assembled by a proponent of hers as part of the effort to get the Roman Church to declare her a saint.
The compiler himself argues that her struggle is evidence of profound faith. I would suggest that good people struggling with the contradictions of Christianity are .. for the rest of us .. often great heroes.
LSIB
@45
“cynical” is your term not mine.
I challenge you to show me other religions that have used force to enforce belief on others.
I do not know much about pol pot. I assume he was Buddhist, buddhism takes no stand on whether there is or is not a God.
Was Hitler an atheist? Show me the evidence.
Stalin was educated as a priest. His actuall beliefs are hard to know but even he, AFIK, never practiced forced conversion.
Do you want examples of monsters who did believe? …. the numbers are immense and frightening. In our own time, just look at the missionaries, the conquistadors, Father Sierra, Pious IX, Dick Chaney, Jones, ……
Personally, I eschew those who denigrate Christianity for these horrors while neglecting the good it has also done. What disgusts me is the claim Christians mkae to the good without accepting responsibility for the bad.
And I am in no way equating the two, so you know.
Not.
Just one quote: In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”
@50 rob
Yep.
To Hitler, one can add Shaka Zulu, Sarah Pain’s allies in the fight against witch doctors, Governor Stephens of our own State, Andrew Jackson, Cortez, …
By and large, atheists tend to be peace mongers.
Remember Bobby Jindal believes in exorcist rituals. If he ever runs for President that is SO coming out and he’s gonna be easily crucified on his own petard.
re 7: ‘course not. Clapton was God — and Hendrix was better than Clapton.
Eric Clapton = the finest modern elevator musak around….
you know Clapton has jumped the shark when he gets airplay side by side with John Tesh and Yanni..
…hurls….
The test of that would be CD’s in the sales racks of second hand stores. You will find lots of Yanni and John Tesch, but you won’t find any Clapton.
Run along now and go read your Beano comic.
@55
strange that you would know what a Beano comic is….
Clapton is snore music.
Geez, Max, how could you? Clapton from 1965 through 1968 was Clapton at his best. Crossroads? After that, er, perhaps not so much. Of the old guard, Jeff Beck is the one who has a hot band these days. Or maybe I’m just hot for the bass player, Tal Wilkenfeld.
@57
Oh Steve, dont get me wrong, Clapton was the man back in the Cream days.
However modern Clapton is like the Feng Shui of elevator musak. Utterly devoid of any real meaning or entertainment.
everyone jumps the shark eventually, even clapton.
@57 and 58: Derek and the Dominos (Clapton and Allman) was an incredible album. I’d cut it off there.
@57 and 58: While Clapton’s album output after D&D was not my favorite, I have an album of him doing Robert Johnson tunes — pretty nice. And Clapton does lots of blues festivals and he is in FINE form when I’ve seen him.
Clapton’s lasting contribution might be in the way he helped introduce the world to the old bluesmen like Willie Dixon and Robert Johnson who influenced him.
I still have my old Beano album. I also have Graham Bond, Sounds of ’65, with Ginger Baker and Jack Bruce. It even includes an early version of Traintime. It was fun listening to these knowing where it would lead.
Me and my 45 year old Gibson bass always understood that Eric Clapton isn’t God. Jack Bruce is God.