1 Kings 11:1-3
King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.
Discuss.
I quoth Mel.
Seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines? I understand now why kings need standing armies to keep their kingdoms under control.
I can think of Republican congressmen who’ve had multiple wives and a couple of choirboys on the side, but I can’t think of a modern counterpart to King Solomon, except maybe Newt Gingrich.
History’s first recorded pussy posse.
And what happened to Israel? Just what God told them would happen if they left Him and worshipped the fake gods of wood, iron, stone, air, stars, etc.
Puddy is a Sinner. Why do you choose to Sin, Puddy?
@3: Wilt Chaimberlain claimed he had sex with 20,000 women.
Um, Puddy,
ALL gods are fake. All religious dogma is based in political expediencies of the moment by the people holding the reins and whips of economic power.
Religions sole purpose is to maintain a certain minimum level of social terror and general paranoia. Otherwise, people ask too many questions about where the money is going and the “leaders” motives for assuming the positions of leadership.
Religion is false, dogmatic belief systems require obedience and submission to the “leaders” will. If that dogma coincides with a general set of previously established social mores, it is easier to inflict an individuals will on a majority of the population, even if that individuals will serves only to enhance the leaders personal wealth and political influence on the subject society.
There are expert manipulators in the world. everyone knows this. In modern times, we call them sociopaths. Such experts will always seek to increase their will and influence on the greatest number of people as possible, at any and all costs, except of course, to themselves.
Dogmatic religion demonstrates this perfectly. It is the easiest way to manipulate people. A dynamic, charismatic sociopath will always seek out the least common denominator and the simplest method
to manipulate the greatest number of people as possible for whatever purpose, even the most evil. Religion is a ready-made tool for such individuals. It provides the simplest method of access to the greatest number of people possible.
Religion is:
You can fool some of the people some of the time. And thats all one really needs.
Deathfrogg,
nice try, but that’s far too complicated for puddy to understand.
I thought Don Joe’s link @ 1 was going to be Mel Gibson,…
So much for marriage = 1 man & 1 woman.
@ 10
I prefer this.
Much better example methinks.
I heard Soloman had balls the size of grapefruit, a pneumatic prostate, and that well into his 80’s he could still get it up 12 times in a row.
Yeah, Solomon and me both….
@5 Pud
I thought that the one people worship NOW is made of air. Sure seems like it, except for the whole “no measurable existence or effects” thing.
He probably didn’t fuck the royal ones all that much — those are political “marriages”. A king has alliances to build and wealth to plunder, you know.
OTOH, the 300 concubines is still pretty impressive. That’s a different one every day basically — with a little time off to prevent choad blistering.
OTO,OH, all those women lived together and they’re well known for coordinating menses when they do that — imagine: 300 women OTR all in the same place? Shudder…
@16 Solomon probably followed last weeks advise and went camping in the desert that week.
Can you imagine the mans honeydo list?
RE 8
Please don’t take this as a personal attack-it’s more in the nature of heartfelt pity:
Politicians are out to get you. Corporations are out to get you. Religion is out to get you. How in the world do you live with that excessively depressing worldview? Personally I’d end it all on the Aurora bridge if I believed half the paranoic nonsense you do. You make real the polemic of the bumper sticker which says- “Piss off a liberal. Be happy and enjoy life.”
And what makes it worse, of course is that you’re completely wrong most of the time.
Religion is an expression of the wonder of creation. It is necessarily limited codification of the awe one feels while contemplating any great work of art. Anyone who looks at the created universe and believes it comes from chaos and is bound for chaos could look at a Matisse or the David and believe the one happened when an explosion occured in a paint factory or the other due to centuries of wind or water eroding marble.
Do people distort and use religion for their own ends? Absolutely. Some people hurt their children or their spouse and call it love. It doesn’t make the love you feel for your wife or girlfriend or kids any less true or worthwhile. Nor do a few snake oil salesmen who profess a faith define the faith itself.
Deathfrogg, I’d get some help. Life is far too short and too good to waste it in the paranoic depressed state you inhabit.
RE 17
I always wondered about the sanity of the man who practices polygamy. I dearly love my wife. Having said that trying to understand one woman is sufficient for me. Trying to understand 1000? No, thanks very much.
Goldy–
You are an Atheist Jew.
You’re ex- is Catholic.
You were not equally yoked in your faith.
And the end result was….divorce.
All Studies show that folks who are deeply rooted in faith & equally yoked with their spouse stand a much better chance of staying together. I’m not talking about folks who practice casual Judaism or casusal Christianity..I’m talking about deeply rooted.
Totally.
lost,
it’s not that difficult; all polygamists are interested in understanding is what’s between a woman’s thighs.
cyn,
quote us some studies, any studies, that support your claim.
Yoked is a apt description, though; dumb animals, incapable of reason, doing stuff because someone tells them to.
polygamy, polyandry …
Hindu,, Pueblo, Jew. Muslim, Morman,
All fine by Me.
Harem, Ho house, gay bars, geisha,
All fine by Me.
Genghis Khan fathered 1/3 of Eurasia ….
All My children!
As for My True Son, Puddy … in the Torah, I never told you to have one wife, or one husband. Why do you follow Roman Law, instead of My word?
quoting Mel Brooks: “It’s good to be the king”
completely lost spews one of the most idiotic statements ever written:
I assume you’re not a pagan or an animist for which this statement would actually be appropriate.
Judeo-Christianity-Islam is ALL codification and politically organized delusion — no awe, dipshit, unless you call teary frenzy and magical thinking based on “scripture” that doesn’t survive the merest scrutiny, “awe”.
I don’t know what fuels your particular delusions and mania — endorphins, drugs, alcohol, whatever — but you’re one ignorant, deluded fuckwad to equate the sick and twisted religion of the bearded sky god with awe at creation / nature.
Re 22
Sometimes. Sometimes it’s political, as in the ancient middle east.
But Solomon didn’t write repeatedly about the joys of finding a good wife based only on sex. Nor were the beautiful verses of the Song of Solomon about sex alone.
Other than for individuals whose mental development stopped at age 12 I don’t think it possible to live with a lady on terms of intimacy without some attachment developing.
‘God’,
There is a legal case in which a man stood up in a boat during an argument with his companions about the existence of God. He hollered ‘if there is a God, strike me down with lightening right now.’ The resulting lightening strike sunk the boat and killed the man. His companions sued his estate for reckless behavior and won.
Don’t stand up in any boats, buddy.
lost @26,
you’re gonna have to provide a link to that story if you want me to believe it. And for an opposing story, look at what happened to touchdown Jesus. God obiously disapproved, no? So why are they promising to rebuild?
Re 25
Thank you, Zotz, for adding in the Hitchenesque blind hatred to the discussion. So revealing of your mental state, so completely irrelevant to faith.
A little hint- The kind of hatred you and your type of atheist show reveals more about the poverty of your belief than about faith in general. I fully respect friends who chose athiesm after years of study and thought. This type feels little need to evangilize their belief or belittle those who don’t share it.
Having said that, “It is necessarily limited codification of the awe one feels while contemplating any great work of art.” was poorly written. I had meant to convey that any definition or codification of God (religion) was limited by it’s nature. Defining the infinite makes it finite, and is therefore flawed prima facia.
Consider, for 2000 years the best minds in history have contemplated Christianity and found it compelling. For 2000 years monastaries and universities have written intensively reasoned texts on the nature of God. Yet you and your peers in the hatred business feel perfectly justified calling the humble descendants of this rich cultural heritage out. You call them bigots, ignorant, stupid and so on. The arrogance is simply astounding.
I don’t know what childhood or other experiences fuel your anger. Best of luck with it though.
Meh, missed the edit window: obiously = obviously
Re 27
There is a series of books on court cases providing moments of humor from court transcripts I collected while in college. I had some thought to become an attorney, which I abandoned in favor of being human. No internet link to my knowledge. It may surprise people in this internet age, but if it isn’t preceded by a ‘www’ it still can partake of reality.
Anyway, it was more to lighten a mood than to argue a point. I wouldn’t waste the time arguing with the distinguished gentleman/lady who using the moniker ‘God.’
@20
Do you have to be yoked? What if you aren’t into the whole BDSM scene? Yoking just seems so kinky, kinkier than I can take.
@ 18
There is no “wonder of creation” when you deny the human ability to question. There is no “wonder of creation” when you seek to manufacture artificial rationale for the destruction of the natural world for human exploitation as the bible says. I do not feel wonder at “gods” creation when I slaughter a chicken, steer or a hog. I’m thinking of my stomach, and the odors coming off the grill as I cook the meat.
One cannot, without any sense of absurdity, compare the artists that create beauty (most often at the behest of a wealthy or powerful entity) and compare it to the beauty that exists in the natural world. Ansel Adams recognized this, as did John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt. Without natural, random and chaotic influences, there would be no art. Without a sense of absurdity and humor, there can only be religion, faith and pure unquestioning obedience to anothers will. That is a form of blindness. It is a rejection of intellect. It is a rejection of the natural world, substituting artificial perceptions that become dogmatic, institutionalized and absolutely rigid.
I don’t trust people that much. Faith means someone is trying to flimflam me. Take my shit. Force me to do things that I would normally not ever do. Far too often this means hurting people, or taking their shit, or bamboozle them into doing things that they would normally never do unless told to by some authority figure. Religion is blind obediance. The Communists and Fascists proved that beyond any shadow of a doubt. The royalists during the latter part of the 18th century while this nation was being born also proved this.
What occurs spontaneously is much more interesting to me than that which has been artifically manufactured. I can appreciate a Matisse, or a Renoir, or a DaVinci, without crediting their talents to anything but the wide variations in human cognitive ability. I do not expect to be able to create things as they did. but I don’t expect to be forced to credit their talents and obsessions to anything but their own intelligence and abilities.
I would rather sit in a quiet place in the mountains, watch a stream cascade over the rocks, the insects and the fish and listen to the sounds that happen spontaneously and chaotically in the forest. The wind through the trees, the sound of the water on the rocks, the birds singing out their territorial imperatives. I know that all this is simply because over billions of years, chaos is the very foundation of all things in nature. There is no orderliness to the trees, or the water on the rocks. There is no precision.
There is no supervisory entity making sure that these things remain as they are. An earthquake or even a simple change in the flow of the water can change the course of the stream, a plague can wipe out the birds, a change in the suns core can alter the temperature of the atmosphere and change the wind patterns that the local ecology has adapted to over the aeons, changing the very nature of the forest itself. Thats chaos. That is nature.
So, am I supposed to be happy and enjoy life when there are people in the government or religious institutions that use their positions to justify the rape, murder and robbery that is warfare? Am I supposed to be blissfully unaware of the crimes committed in my name as a citizen and remain cheerful? Should I just go to church, and pray, and ignore the crimes that religious institutions have always committed throughout history in the name of some mythical higher authority figure, and always to the benefit of the individuals or institutions claiming to represent that authority?
Religion is anti-nature, anti-intellect, and anti-human. It opposes any education or research or study not exclusively devoted to furtherance of its own purposes.
It cannot exist without humans actively ignoring and rejecting the input from their five basic senses, and the ability of their own brains to process that input. Religion is purely the act of lying to oneself, and doing everything possible to maintain those lies.
It bespeaks worlds of violence, oppression and subterfuge, in the name of an entity which has never been proven to exist except in the minds of deluded and often deeply psychotic individuals.
“Thank you, Zotz, for adding in the Hitchenesque blind hatred to the discussion.”
“The kind of hatred you and your type of atheist show reveals more about the poverty of your belief”
“Yet you and your peers in the hatred business feel perfectly justified calling the humble descendants of this rich cultural heritage out. You call them bigots, ignorant, stupid and so on. The arrogance is simply astounding.”
They are haters, you say, as you accuse these people of arrogance. And yet your every post drips with arrogance and hate. By chance did the new wingnut Bible edit out Matthew 7:1 as well as John 8:7? I swear, Schafly’s kid does the Devil’s work.
I fall on the Christian side of things, although mine is no KLOWN or junkshot faith. Zotz expresses his point of view and I take no issue with him. His brush might be a little wide for my tastes but he seems to be trying to show some contempt to those who deserving of it. I suspect he’d agree with me that it’s not about being Christian or not. It’s not about being Islamic, atheist or anything else. It’s not about God. Cold cash can be your God for all I fucking care. When it comes to values, people act out their real values in their day to day lives. Here in our little cesspool community, Zotz, an atheist, day by day comes across as a good man, perhaps even in the eyes of God a better man than you, a professed Christian. Another item on the plus side of the column for Zotz, he doesn’t bring the vapid hypocricy that you deliver here in spades. Calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make one a better man, Lost. But I’d say acting out each day the values as taught by Christ wouldn’t hurt. Alas, that’s not what you bring here. Is it any wonder that Zotz shows you contempt? Not for me it isn’t.
Briefly-
Physicists find entropic systems underlayed by enthalpic every time new advances in theoritical physics are made. That is to say, under apparent chaos lies order.
“I would rather sit in a quiet place in the mountains, watch a stream cascade over the rocks, the insects and the fish and listen to the sounds that happen spontaneously and chaotically in the forest.” I agree, if you remove the term ‘chaotically.’
Earthquakes, tornados and so on are only chaotic if you view them as apart from the system of nature. But to do so is patently ridiculous. That is what universe means, the whole kit and caboodle.
Human beings are the exception. We have free will and can choose chaos. We can choose to attempt denial of the natural order by being poor stewards of the environment. We can create social chaos by our choices to prosecute wars, treat each other badly and so on.
Your quarrel is with that free will, and all your examples come from it. And you have the free will to be happy. When I worked for a large construction company 25 men relied on my judgement to keep them employed and keep their careers moving forward. I enjoyed the responsibility and took it seriously. I knew their families, their goals in the company and made assessments of their personalities and how I best could help them.
Having said that, when I went home I forgot about them. I played with my kids, took the dogs for walks, cooked dinner, chatted with my wife or read a book. In this recreation and immersion in the real stuff of life I found the rest to do my job at work that much better. Your happiness is your choice, not someone elses.
Re 33
I’ve reread all my statements in this posting and find neither arrogance nor hatred. If I somehow come accross that way to you, I do apologize.
And yes, those that believe that their philophical or religious beliefs make them superior are sadly lacking in basic civility or intellectual decency. Hitchens is a prime example. Zotz rarely brings concrete argument, but never fails in incivility and hatred. Again, if this is the image I present I do most humbly apologize.
“Zotz, an atheist, day by day comes across as a good man, perhaps even in the eyes of God a better man than you, a professed Christian.” In the eyes of the beholder lies beauty, but I must confess to not seeing it in Zotz. As for me, I wouldn’t be a Christian if I felt a better man. Why bother seeking medical care if one isn’t ill?
Pray tell, what values should I be practising day after day?
@ 35
Kindness, empathy, curiosity and compassion.
You know, Liberal values.
Re 36
No, not Liberal values. Human values. Values that inform most systems of philosophy or religion, for example.
In conservative thought the greatest good for the greatest number is the motivator just as in liberal. In Buddhist thought and Christian and atheist the same attempt to understand or deny God and convey that understanding to others is present. We can disagree on means, we can disagree on method. But it is a mistake to infer evil intent where there’s only a difference of opinion.
Now, speaking of immersion in real life- The boy and I are going fishing. Have a pleasant Sunday.
lost,
what does the universe “mean”? Have you really looked at the universe? Do you realize how antithetical to life the universe is? Incomprehensibly vast streches of space where life is *impossible*, where death would be instantaneous if you somehow managed to get there without protection. Look at how much effort it takes to keep the space station going.
Then there is this insignificant little speck that we call Earth, and somehow we’re supposed to think that some incredibly powerful man poofed this all into being, just for us. Sorry, but I find it to be far more interesting and sensible to believe the universe exists through natural processes, than to believe in magical beings who’s existence is impossible to verify.
Another “gem” from completelylost:
This is a breathtakingly arrogant statement. And unfortunately, quite common amongst the “faith” set. That most of us allow religiously arrogant (and ignorant) statements like yours to pass without comment just underscores the deadly meaning in the phrase: “the banality of evil”.
Of course, you’re not personally evil. I’m sure you mean well and think (there’s an ironic thought) your vapid bullshit is “meaningful”.
But then, you are an ignorant fool, don’t know better and are apparently committed to ignorance. That makes you stupid.
When you take or advocate actions towards others based on your “faith” as you have related many times here, that makes you a bigot.
They are harsh words, but definitely warranted in your case, notwithstanding your treacly mewlings and repetition of cliches as “arguments” otherwise.
I’m sure there were lots of scholarly treatises from proponents of Zeus and Odin and Ba’al and Osiris or Mithra or whatthefuckever.
All of us are atheists about almost of the gods who have ever “existed” despite a plethora of “compelling” and “…rich cultural heritage[s]…”
Lots of us have just evolved a little more.
I’m actually trying to help you, completelylost. I perceive you’re capable of better than what you attempt to pass off as “thoughful” here.
Be thankful this just a comment thread on a lefty blog. If I could actually reach you, I’d slap you up side the head for being such a stupid fucking bigot. But then, I’d be smiling and you’d know it was for your own good.
“I’m sure there were lots of scholarly treatises from proponents of Zeus and Odin and Ba’al and Osiris or Mithra or whatthefuckever.”
As a young teen and ward of the state I was forced to go to church – to what was then a Baptist church by the river in Preston. A friend and I protested mightily, claiming a belief in in the Norse god Odin and that the two of us suffered religious persecution by being forced to attend a Christian church. Sigh! It was to no avail as we were still forced to recieve our weekly dose of fire and brimstone.
That’s right about Steve Steve Steve, his abortion and gay marriage beliefs are NO WHERE in the Christian Bible.
The Prosecution Rests Your Honor. This fool was spanked again.
DeadToad@8,
There is only one God. He’s real and not made of air. Since you forgot this small fact, God was a dark cloud to the Egyptians while He was a pillar of fire to the Israelites. God was the Burning Bush to Moses. God used His hand to shield Moses from seeing His face and having Moses die.
God wrote on the wall to Belshazzar when he was found in the same state your are… weighed in the balances of life and found wanting….
So how could “air” perform these wondrous tasks DeadTadpole?
Is that why you created your Stupid Solution?
puddy,
here’s a little light reading for you:
“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:31
“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.” Luke 6:35
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:10
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4
So, puddy, why do you hate yourself so much?
Geez, Puddy, do you hate all homeless kids who end up as wards of the state? I could see it if it was just me you hated. But I somehow suspect that you hate just about everybody, well, except for maybe a deranged KLOWN or two. Either way, I’m sure all that hate seething inside you is somehow very, heh- Christian of you.
Oh, and one more thing…
yo mama
“his abortion and gay marriage beliefs are NO WHERE in the Christian Bible”
Oh? I take it then that Phyllis Schafly’s spawn has finished scrubbing all progressive thought from the, heh- Involatile Word. Geez, Puddy, that means you can now judge everybody you don’t like and cast the first stone! My, how you must be thrilled. Hey, have you stoned anybody yet?
Zotz,
Touche, you have a point. A poorly expressed thought in 28 that gives you that point. I appreciate the correction, whatever the motivation.
“Consider, for 2000 years the best minds in history have contemplated Christianity and found it compelling,” would better have read this way. “Consider, for 2000 years among the best minds in history have contemplated Christianity and found it compelling.” Of course Christianity doesn’t hold a lock on greatness in intellect, nor do the last couple millenia represent all that is great in human thought. Dantes’ sublime poetry owed much to Virgil. Aquinas needed Aristotle to perfect his genius. In fact what is great in human thought is always part of a progression owing humble gratitude to what has gone before.
I fail to see where the statement or Christianity in general could have been described as ‘the banality of evil’ under any circumstance, but that’s your opinion and I respect your right to it.
With the possible exception of Judaism I’m unaware of any other religion with a 2 millenia history of consistent adherence and study. I can assure you none has produced the University system and the Scientific Method. Galileo was a devout Christian deeply grieved by his troubles with the church. Western poetry, art, literature and architecture for the past 2000 years owe much to the Judeo-Christian traditions.
So, on second thoughts, holding an opinion that this represents the banality of evil isn’t really an opinion. It’s garden variety ignorance.
Anytime you feel up to slapping me on the head-
I’ll turn the other cheek.
Have a nice day.
With the “possible” exception of Judaism ???
How Christian of you! … Judaism in easily 3000 years old and is part of a far older Canaani tradition.
Other religions of comparable age and a lot more sophistication in philosophy includes .. Tao, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism ……..
For that matter giving Christianity credit for 2000 years kinda sorta leaves out the utter barbarism of the millenium between Nicea and the Renaissance … do you really think a visitor from alpha century would have given priority to the illiterate deiphagic barbarians of 1000 years ago over the sophisticated civilizations of China, Islam Persia, Toltec?
As for science, Christendom from Nicea till about 600 years ago was a technology backwater …lacking the engineering skills of most of the civilized world.
What happened? … in a word the logical processes of the Greeks .. long suppressed by Christianity never died in the non Christian world. It is no accident that the renaissance grew in Islamic and Jewish soil.
As for the scientific method it certainly is a great triumph of European culture but that triumph only occured when the revolutionaries of the enlightenment overthrow Christian tyrrany. The history of science has been written in the bloody overthrow of Christianity as a source of facts.
Even then by far the largest religious/ethnic group contributing to modern science has been the Jews .. take a look at the Nobels if you need proof. Is this because Judaism is better religion than Christianity?
Fair enough points about Judaism being older. Inescapable really, considering that it comes from that faith. And the scholarly traditions of Judaism can hardly be overstated. “With the possible exception” was a stupid thing to write.
As for the Eastern religions I’m unaware of an impact on Western culture which they present. Melville called Japan “that triple barred country” as late as 150 years ago. The Chinese word for someone not Chinese was barbarian. The Brits actually made them sign a treaty to stop calling them that. This kind of zenophobic reaction to outsiders hardly encourages the flow of ideas and culture.
Be fair. Greek, Roman and even Islamic learning were kept alive in Europe because of the monastic houses. They were the keeper of the flame, if you like, through the dark ages. Yes, they censored books. But they kept them, copied them and collected them, from whatever source.
Was Christianity perfect? Did it provide a 20th Century viewpoint in the 800’s? Of course not. But if you look at any of the intellectual traditions which inform Western thought through Europe and into America they come from the Christian church or at the least through it
To portray the Catholic church, which, as I’ve stated, gave us the university, as anti-scholastic is historical revisionism. I’ve got no dog in this fight, so you know. I happen not to be Catholic. But I can recognize the benefits to our society it gave anyway. It’s only the severe secularism of the last few decades which try to deny this basic cultural fact.
Re 49
This is inflammatory at best! In Christian universities the scientific method was born. Yes, some hidebound ideas were rejected, and a new approach to learning was adopted. But bloody overthrow of Christian tryanny? Really!
Don’t get me wrong, SJ. In modern times the influence of Christianity directly has been sharply diminished, and for the good.
In modern times better communication means that religious differences make less difference than intellectual capacity in scholarly endeavor. This is wonderful no matter how you look at it.
What I have been referring to is the characterization of Christianity as benighted and tyrannical through the centuries. I’ve been referring to historical influences, not modern trends of thought. I’ve been defending Christianity against the irrational attacks it faces and the historical revisionism that libels it.
Here’s your “rich cultural heritage”, completelylost:
Much more here: http://www.thesmartset.com/art.....21001.aspx
@50 ,,LSOB
The “scientific method” was NOT invented in Christian Universities.
The single easiest surge of science to ide4ntify was part of the French Enlightenment ..an utterly anti clerical movement.
Another way of looking at this is by naming some of the key pioneers of the scientitific methods …
Siddartha, Archimedes, Pasteur, Virchow, Kepler, Einstein, Bohr, Kekule, Ramachandran, , Hook, von Neuman, Michaelson, Pavlov, Feinman, Sabin, Salk, Gadjusek, Darwin, Franklin, Volta, … not a lot of “Christians university” faculty there.
Look, anyone who denies the great advances made by Christendom, aka Europe, is being a fool, BUT, givinbg the credit for science to Jesus-ism make as much sense as giving credit to the Greek/Egyptian/and Jewish cultures that were promulgates under the imperial banners of Rome.
I would also suggest that the discovery of America, driven largely by Jewish and Islamic scholars, was the single biggest impetus to use of science. Or do you think the barbarian Castillians Christians deserve intellectual credit for that achievement.
I would also suggest that among the greatest disasters science has ever suffered is the Christian conquest of Andalusia. Imagine how how that great culture might have grown w/o the inquisition?