Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” then the girl’s father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl’s father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them to the girl’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.
Discuss.
This sounds like nothing so much as a warranty dispute over the quality of goods purchased by the husband from the parents.
The life of the vessel containing the disputed parts hangs in the balance. (Vessel being the young woman, of course, and the disputed parts are her reproductive organs and whether they contain an intact hymen.)
This sort of treatment of women – her role as a possession, the focus on her reproductive organs, her ‘purity’ linked to family shame, the death-sentence by stoning – are perhaps seen most literally in the more backward corners of the Muslim world these days (perhaps I am redundant there). But here it is in Deuteronomy – part of the much-vaunted Torah. Hmm.
Foundational document of Judaism and Christianity. Check.
Thank you Goldy for yet another demonstration that religion is tyranny, and that basing decisions in a contemporary time on the reasoning embodied in the collects ravings of bronze-age men is insanity.
Ah, dogmatic religion. Nothing ever changes. The modern “christians” would love to see these laws brought back. Sarah Palin and her preacher in Alaska say it outright, as do many “conservative” Senators and infamous TV personalities.
This is what the modern American conservatives want. To be allowed to murder their own children, and those of others at will, and to sell them into slavery or forced marriage as soon as the girls reach menses.
Or even before.
Religion is an obsolete paradigm. The human race will not mature as a species nor will it achieve its full intellectual potential until all such dogmas are eliminated from the social consciousness. The christian, jewish and islamic death cults are the problem, and offer no solution to the socioeconomic problems created by the dogmas they espouse. Dogmas they would violently enforce on the whole of human society if permitted the opportunity to do so, even to the point of their own self-destruction. This has been horribly illustrated countless times in history.
Religion is merely the worship of the fear of death, and the rejection of randomness and personal intellect. When individuals apply their intelligence to the rationalization of violence and theft in the form of dogmatic belief systems, they are rejecting their own intelligence and moral structure. They are terrified of being held responsible for their own actions and the decisions they themselves made that allowed them to commit those actions.
Simply put, it is easier to blame some imaginary magical sky monster for their troubles, misbehaviors and mistakes, than to accept their own responsibility for them and be held to account by the society they live in. Religionists consider themselves to be the sole arbiters of “right” and “wrong”, and therefore consider themselves to be above those concepts, and exempt from them.
“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.”
– Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
Communist Russia was officially an atheist state…how’d they treat people? hmmm……
Dolt @3
Escaping tyranny of religion does not guaranty freedom, it is merely a prerequisite.
Imperial Russia was awful to its people too – and very and officially religious.
LMFAO @ the tyranny of religion.
@3,
yeah, the USSR was officially atheist, but not in reality. And the US is officially a non-religious state, but you would never guess that by watching our elected officials.
So what was your point?
OK, Tree of Woe,
Comment on the passage.
@5 Contemplate this, on the Tree of Woe
Show me one example. Just one, where a religious society was NOT tyrannical. Where a religious, faith-based governmental system did not violently oppress individuals who were perceived as non-conformal to that society and its dogmatically enforced perceptions and ideals.
Just one.
I submit, that economic religion is just as tyrannical as social religion. Soviet Communism was merely a religious replacement for Russian orthodox christianity. It supplanted it, and did not reject the concept of religion at all.
The same can be said for unfettered faith-based capitalism.
Hmmm…? When did Sarah Palin’s “preacher” espouse this or as before… another DeadToad fart with no proof?
We all know what Jumping Jeremiah Wright said in front of Odumba for 20 years. We all know what Jim Wallis has preached over the years. We know all about the shakedowns of Jesse HiJack-son. So riddle Puddy with those “words”.
Puddy knows of these Sarah Palin words “Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”
Puddy found this DeadFrog…
From a DKos site. Yeah, the same ones who claimed Trigg was Bristol’s baby.
Butt here’s the funny part… while this minister said this in 2008, Odumba and his henchmen are implementing the same policy this minister “TALKED” about in 2010. The Odumba sadministration thinks the evil Jewish Wall Street bankers and their wealth is wicked so they want give it to the Christian masses. A Robin Hood experience. And the HA Libtardo class is cheering it on, LOUDLY Look at the Senate Finance banking bill ya moron! Too stupid all day every day!
Toooooooooooooooooooooo
Damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnny
So who’s right fool; Odumba and his henchmen implementing the policy or the minister rhetoric?
Puddy will wait while you pull another out of your ASS!
a) more self loathing by goldy (are you only ethnically a MOT)
b) more wimp posting; if you really had an ax to grind about hypocrisy in religion you’d include all 3 Abrahamic faiths..maybe even toss in a diss of Hindus or Buddhists while at it.
How Christian of you!
A Post to HaGoyem
Please do not paint Judaism with the muddy, blood soaked brush of Christianity.
Until Emperor Constantine imposed Christianity on the Roman Empire Rome was officially tolerant of its subject religions .. including atheism.
After Constantine, the last non-Christian Emperor, Julian promulgated an edict overturning Constantine’s laws and declared that all the religions equal before the law. Julian, himself a “pagan” returned temples confiscated by the Christians to their original owners and even attempted to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem.
Legend says Julian was killed by two of his soldiers, now Christian saints. Christians have condemned Julian, calling him “Julian the Apostate.”
“Religion,” as you use the term, is defined by the evangelical triumphalism, exclusivism and imperialism of Christianity and Islam. Communism too is part of that tradition.
Even Bertrand Russel, the great rationalist, blamed the Jews for Christian bigotry because he, as na European, bought into the idea that religion is evangelical and oppression.
Judaism, like most other religions, was never evangelical. While Judaism teaches that its truth is correct, the idea of forced conversion of others was never a part of Judaism. In fact, the Talmud teaches that the most religious person is not a Jew, but a non-Jew because she or he has no need to follow Jewish law.
“How Christian of you!” .. has never been a compliment in my book.
Puddy
Some day you will actually answer a question instead of changing the subject.
Never mion Palin, YOU calim that YOU have exclusive truth. YOU cliam that your jealous God condemns others for the terrible sin of not callin Hin “Jesus.”
YOU support laws that permit forced teaching of YOUR religon to MY children. TOU condone Sarah Palin when she suports persectuion of women in Kenya as “witches.”
YOU calim that even your econimic ideas are derived from YOUR God?
No?
@ spuddypud
Sarah Palin is only a prime example of the old saying that “talk is cheap”.
Sarah Palin defines this:
plat·i·tude[plat-i-tood,]
–noun
1. A flat, dull, or trite remark, esp. one uttered as if it were fresh or profound.
2. The quality or state of being flat, dull, or trite: the platitude of most political oratory.
She cheapens the First Amendment with every breath she takes, and is the most profound hypocrite of our age. Using her as an example of anything but the most extreme example of superficiality of cliche’ is the height of anti-intellectualism. So clearly demonstrated in every speech and word by the modern Fascists, in the form of the GOP and the teabagger/John Birch Society/KKK/Neoconservative movement.
Religion is the tool, and tyranny is the goal. Faith is the method, and subjugation is the purpose. You dumbasses swallow it hook, line and sinker every time, as you have for so many centuries. Maybe it’s time you started to grow up, and forsake your primitive superstitions and childish fears.
Nothing ever really changes.
@11
Talk about changing the subject!
This is from YOUR book.
You like to bray about your religion never forcing anyone to convert. But what about all the smiting by the “Chosen People” of the poor folks who were in the promised land first?
And before you call me an anti-semite, my animosity to religion – yours and others’ – is broad and non-discriminatory. All of you people claiming that the sky-god told you something or gave you something, or told you how to define your club’s rules, are nuts.
BTW, SJ and Pud and the other religionists, what about the passage?
@14 Liberal Scientist
“This is from YOUR book.”
What a load of horse manure you are spreading.
How VERY Christian of you to demand that I defend YOUR version of my Torah!
1. You have NO idea what “chosen people” means to Jews. Instead you use the term an overtly antisemitic way to claim that Jews have claimed some sort of unique privilege.
How VERY Christian of you
2. You seem to suggest that the Zionists built Israel because we were chosen and the folks living in Palestine were not. The Zionists were secular Jews, largely atheists.
How VERY Christian of you
3. You accuse me of “bray(ing) about my religions never forcing others to convert.” When have we ?
How VERY Christian of you
4. You assume that because I am Jewish YOU know what my beliefs are. Try telling that to Marx, Spinoza, Halevi, Salk …
How VERY Christian of you
5. You treat our history as if it were YOUR revealed truth. Do you really thkink Jews consider David’s murder of his General a good thing? Does Judaism celebrate the sacrifice of the Egyptians?
How VERY Christian of you
6. I am willing to bet that you deny your own Christian heritage, clinging to the “great ethical lessons of Jesus” while blaming the horrors of Christianity on bad Christians.
How VERY Christian of you
For what it is worth, I am a devout atheist.
@15: You’re wasting your time with Pudpuller, et al. When confronted with the plain text of their craziness, obfuscation is all they have.
The “God” sockpuppet will “appear” to provide some comic relief shortly, I predict.
@11
And before you call me an anti-semite,
oh yes, they will call you an anti semite. its the tool they use to keep you from making any criticisms, legitimate or not.
So if a terrorist gets to heaven and discovers none of his 70 virgins are, um, virgins … does he stone them all?
It seems to me that recycling virgins is good for the planet because it conserves the limited supply of virgins.
@17 Zotz
How can I help you?
Do you doubt my reality?
Why should I comment on any errors Man attributes to Me? … or woMan for that matter?
I am that I am.
@19
If they weren’t virgins, they wouldn’t be in heaven.
Duh!
@22 Deathfrogg
Eve? Sarah? not virgins?
By the way, here is some news ….
Jesus is not a virgin.
I am that I am.
See how orgasmic Puddy gets when he’s spewing about Palin and Biblical law? Like other American Christian fundamentalists, Puddy’s big problem with Sharia law is that he’s jealous that they get to impose their religious laws while his American Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists don’t. Nothing would please Puddy more than to see the day come when he can join the angry mob, even throwing the first stone (the new wingnut Bible gets rid of the inconvenient John 8:7), killing a young girl and her little pony at the gates of the city.
Reminds me of this scene from the Life of Brian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI
@23, God:
Mary, mother of Jesus, is notably missing from your list of non-virgins in heaven, especially since you noted the sexual experience of her progeny.
Is Mary a virgin or not?
If so, then how does Jesus credibly claim his royal “pedigree” via Joseph? And, boy! What a pussy Joseph was if he was putting up with all that shit and not gettin’ any leg!
If not, then is the bible misquoting you (lying) about Mary’s sexual (in)experience?
What the fuck, over?
@26 Zotz
I never said Mary was a virgin. I think you are confusing Me with whoever wrote and certified the Roman Bible.
As for Jesus being of the house of David, according to Jewish law the ONLY truth is in the Torah. The House of David is not mentioned in the Torah, nor is Jesus. As for the Jewish view of children born out of wedlock, I suggest you call upon the Wiki to tall you about Joshua ben Pantera.
Finally, do you think so little of Me that I would require My son to be crucified to please My ego? Or do you believe Jesus and I are One and that I arranged the crucifixion because I enjoy My own suffering?
I am that I am.
@27:
Word salad… you’re slipping.
But then, being an atheist, I didn’t really expect to get a straight answer from god or a jewish sockpuppet playing god.
Hey Gang-
Check out some famous Seventh Day Adventists:
(from http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_sda.html)
-Elizaphan Ntakirutimana – chief SDA pastor of Rwanda who, along with his son Gerard, was one of the leaders of the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda
– Gerard Ntakirutimana – medical doctor and Seventh-day Adventist who was one of the leaders of the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda
– Lee Boyd Malvo – younger member of the “Beltway Sniper” duo that terrorized the Washington D.C. area in 2002 (former SDA; converted to Islam before he became a serial killer)
– Marcus Wesson – mass murderer who killed 9 family members in Fresno, California in March 2004
– Robert L. Yates, Jr. – most prolific serial killer in Washington state history
– Dayton Leroy Rogers – the “Molalla Forest Killer”; serial killer convicted of killing six women
– George Speight – leader of an indigenous uprising and non-violent coup attempt in Fiji, year 2000
– Kenneth Bianchi – “Hillside Strangler” serial killer (converted to SDA while in prison after his crimes)
Wow!!!! Quite a crew huh?!
PuddyDuddyNuttyBuddy is still sore about the “Disappointment”…oops…didn’t they set a new date? Maybe he’ll tell us.
Goldy–
In your post about Geoff Simpson, you seemed quick to minimize what he did to his ex-wife.
Seems like because Simpson is a card carrying Progressive, wife-beating & physical intimidation is something you willingly tolerate. That our elected Leaders should be allowed some latitude to explore their deepest Progressive feelings by thumpin’ on a woman.
This Bible verse ought to be right up yer alley!
First DeadToad,
Hmmm…? No links therefore no facts. Apparently Palin’s minister didn’t say anything you farted above.
Butt it is curious how the DUMMOCRAPTS have told the world the evil Jew Wall Street Banker needs to have their wealth redistributed because, well, they are evil Jew money grubbing business bastards per Odumba’s sadministration. How funny is that DeadPollywog? That’s pretty awesome to Puddy.
It’s not what you say, it’s what you do.
Your honor The prosecution RESTS!
Case Dismissed
See ya DeadFrog!
Cynical,
Did ya notice how the arschloch DIDN’T come to Goldy’s defense.
What a useless feckless moron!
SeattleJew,
Puddy loves how you deflect to make yourself look “good”. Puddy has told you face to face Puddy believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. So why the crap of post #12? Mrs Puddy told you to your face she also believes Jesus is the Son of God. When Jesus returns in those clouds of His Father’s glory what will you say?
Now about the other issues you have with the Christian Bible, well they are your issues, not mine. You could cry Puddy a river but it’s sad you claim the Torah validates your point of view and yet you are an atheist. So what is really your point of view? Your argument sounds like a teaser rate given by a bank. Bait and switch maybe?
Oh my Puddy isn’t sure who’s the dumbest comment in this thread… Zitz with his obfuscation complaint or the ever present dumb cinder block rujax? Both are everyday low performers. Of course when presented facts Zitz obfuscates. Remember last week. Now that was funny.
Puddy wonders if the dumb cinder block’s son reads his tripe?
If Zitz procreated oh my on no!
@29
Check out some famous Seventh Day Adventists:
here’s the joke. thats all ancirnt history. but current events are rabbis selling body parts. the media covered the arrests, and then….silence. imagine, catholic priests selling body parts. msnbc would hire six new anchors to cover it 24/7. it would become our new watergate. never dending. and every jew reporter would be outside churches doing interviews. i can only offer this…this world, from the greek collapse to our fiat economy is like the guy keeping all those plates spinning. when/if those plates crash, i wouldnt want to be someone perceived to be part of this destruction of this once great country.
Rujax,
Every religion has bad apples. They are human beings fallen in nature due to sin.
Puddy never brought up rabbis selling body parts.
Just ask the arschloch. Wait a minute… the arschloch is already checking…
Yet you libs claim to have exclusive truth, so stalemate.
re 39:
Examples, please.
John 8:7 seems like it would clear this one up:
Unless of course you only believe in the Old Testament…
@29: “…this once great country.”
You mean the one founded by the Masonic conspiracy and furthered by the Illuminati? History is unfolding exactly as planned. Ask Queen Elizabeth.
You are obviously jealous since you’re not on the inside.
HA, HA, HA….sucks to be eouw**, eh?
**Note the sinister dropping of the “J”…..another manifestation of the Grand Schema.
Has anyone ever verified that God’s plan is up to code??
Discuss? Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
When liberals constantly post that Republicans are stupid and can’t possibly have any answers for the problems in society – that’s proof you believe you have all the truth to yourselves.
@45: But republicans are stupid. Take this classic, for example:
“If Lincoln were alive today, he’d be turning over in his grave.—Gerald Ford
You gonna’ claim that is not stupid?
@ 45
When liberals constantly post that Republicans are stupid
No. Republicans are stupid, because they don’t understand the difference between an ad-hominem argument and an insult.
If I say that you’re argument sucks because you’re stupid, that’s an ad-hominem argument. If I say you’re stupid because your argument sucks, that’s an insult.
Puddy,
I am not trying to look good at all.
It seems t me that where we differ a lot, more than my atheism and your worship iof Jesus, is in how we see our beliefs. Nothing about MY beliefs threatens you. I do not believe that you will be ounished for believuing in Jesus or that you should become an atgheirst (pr a Jew) to save your soul.
All I care about is that popel do their best for each other. If your beliefs lead yuo there, I think that is wonderful. If your beliefs lead to disdain for tothers beliefs, that is dreadful.
As for Torah, I do not justify my beliefs by the Torah. Along with Hillel, Julian, Maimonides, Spinoza, Jefferson, King and Handhi .. I believe there is a natural law and that natural law is as real as quantum mechanics. As a Jew, I condider my ath to understanding that law to be rooted in the Torah.
Pudd
It seems to me that Christianity has an ugly root in the denial of the validity of Jewish religion.
Isn’t the love of your Jesus enough?
239 b,, Crusader
You claim we “libs” beleive in an exclusive truth.
Really?
And what might that truth be?
the atheism of Alinsky, the deism of Jefferson, the hinduism of Gandhi, Pelosi’s catholicism, John XXIII’s catholicism, ???????????
Or do you mean such exotic ideas as evolution, gravity and history?
What a sorry mess, all this fancy-prancing on the head of the pin that is HA. I am so grateful that my parents never encumbered me with a “faith.” O that the earth was not so tangled with it. It’s a disorder.
@29 In fairness to Seventh Day Adventists, Desmond Doss was one of theirs, too.
In case you haven’t heard of Mr. Doss, he was a conscientious objector who served as a medic in World War 2. Mr. Doss refused to carry or use a weapon, for which he was harassed by his fellow soldiers. When his battalion landed on Okinawa in April 1945, Pfc. Doss repeatedly braved enemy fire to rescue wounded troops, even though he was repeatedly wounded. His Medal of Honor citation says, “His name became a symbol throughout the 77th Infantry Division for outstanding gallantry far above and beyond the call of duty.”
Far above. In all of American history, about 3,000 U.S. servicemen (and 1 woman) have been awarded the Medal of Honor, the highest honor our armed services can bestow for extraordinary valor under enemy fire. All of these heroes are extraordinary, but a few stand above all others, and Pfc. Doss (who died in 2006) is one of those.
Mr. Doss was the first conscientious objector to be awarded the Medal of Honor, and one of three to date. He remained active in the Seventh Day Adventist church to the end of his life, and a few years ago, appeared in person at a Seattle-area SDA church to give a talk to the local parishioners.
As I noted earlier, the wingnuts have removed that inconvenient passage from the new Republican Bible written by Phyllis Schafly’s little boy. Having now removed the inviolate Word, Puddy and the KLOWN are now free to cast the first stone, not that any Bible passage ever stopped them from doing that before.
http://www.conservapedia.com/C.....le_Project
The link was amazing. Who thought God was such a capitalist? How come conservatives have bought into the idea that the more wealth you have, the closer you are to god?
I thought this was insightful
—
Prison reform and abolitionism are bad things to conservatives?
re 45:
That’s still not an example. It’s just your opinion. An ‘example’ is an actual quote from the thread that illustrates your contention.
To be generous to you, you’re not quite batting 1000 on this.