Deuteronomy 28:53
And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you.
Yummy. Discuss.
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Just to note that the text is a description of behavior known in dire emergency, from biblical famine or siege to the Donner party. Not a commandment. Don’t try this at home.
Goldy–
The arrogance of the Atheist Progressives leads them to believe somehow they can explain everything. If you can’t understand or grasp it, it must not exist. How shallow & arrogant.
It must be a nightmare struggling with the inexplainable. Take comfort my friends as God has this for you–
Deuteronomy 29:29 (New International Version)
@2
Wrong again, on many levels. You are consistent, Cynical.
We Atheist Progressives, as you capitalize us, might better be known as rational, critical thinkers. The quest for knowledge via the scientific method begins from the acknowledgment that we in fact don’t know or can explain everything – the motivation is to understand as much as we can, and to continually move that frontier forward – actually a humble acknowledgment that more work needs to be done. To a rational, inquisitive person, the unknown is simply the not-yet explained – we’ll get there.
Your description of “If you can’t understand or grasp it, it must not exist” sounds very much like a rewording of “God of the gaps” logical fallacy, something that the religiously oriented engage in frequently.
You do seem to be saying that “god” is what helps you struggle with the unexplainable. Project much?
Perhaps some rewording would be appropriate:
“The arrogance of the religious leads them to believe somehow that they can explain everything with god and faith. If they can’t understand or grasp it, it must be god’s doing. How shallow and arrogant.”
@3
editor seems not to be working.
Second to last sentence should read “If they can’t understand or grasp it, it must be their god’s doing.”
Sounds like whats happening with the GOP right now. Turning on each other when an educated black-skinned man actually attains the political office that they believe should be theirs by divine right.
The party of racism and bigotry cannot stand on those two merits alone. They have not yet learned that lesson.
Is this a message from Me to Puddy, Cynical and others who deny MY word??
In context:
Deut. 28:45 “And these curses will come upon you all, and pursue you, and overtake you until your destruction because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord, your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes that He commanded you.”
How loudly I speak now, can be heard by those who listen. My voice is in the fossils, the shrinking glaciers, and the plague of oil in the Gulf of Mexico.
Why do some refuse to listen?
I am that I am.
@6
Simply because they idolize the persona, rather than the words and lessons offered.
However, being purely a figment of imagination, the entity colloquially referred to in the English language as “God” really has no direct influence on human events.
Perceptions of that influence are purely subjective, and based purely on the interpretations of those events by humans themselves. Therefore any influence attributed to the entity in question can be credited entirely to the individuals and groups that perceive those events. The unreliability of witnesses perceptions in describing a particular event is well documented.
Purely a figment of my imagination, whether influenced by current brain chemistry or the minutiae of momentary temper.
Cynical @2,
Selectively quoting the Bible in order to refute my selective quoting of the Bible. Classic.
@3 Great comment.
Oy – once again picking on us Jews and our God. Please please next week, let’s hear about virgins in heaven or magic underpants or wine turning into blood! Really, there are more religions than Judaism to poke fun of, even if you are a White House correspondent.
This strikes me as an apt passage for describing the Gulf oil spill. Aren’t we consuming our offspring’s patrimony out of fear of change and losing our own comfortable lifestyle?
By devastating the world’s ecosystems we might as well be eating our own young. It’s certainly wreaking havoc with their future.
3. Liberal Scientist spews:
Ahhhhhhh, ok rational, critical thinkers.
I get it so.
So answer me this….with all your criticism and rejection of the Bible…I presume you have both Read it, Studied it and considered it???
How can one be a “critical thinker” and reject something without even reading, studying and considering it?
I challenge you to read 1 book of the Bible starting with Genesis….then let’s discuss it rather than Goldy’s random pick a verse out of any context. Goldy is hardly a critical thinker when it comes to Bible Study.
Look, the Bible has been Burned, Twisted, Abused and Banned by lot’s of self-proclaimed Critical Thinkers over the past millenia. Nothing you Atheist Progressives are throwing out hasn’t been discussed many, many, many times before.
Greater men and women than you have predicted the demise of the Bible and chattered meaninglessly about it’s irrelevance without even reading or studying it.
But consider this Critical Thinkers of HorsesAss.org—
Those before you who predicted the demise of the Bible are now dead in a grave…
but the “corpse lives on!”
So how about it…
Any Critical Thinkers out there willing to accept the challenge of reading one Bible Chapter per week until you have read the whole Bible??
You are Critical Thinkers….right?
I didn’t think so.
Re 3
The assumption you and most other ‘liberal scientists’ make is that the scientific method or logic are the only approaches to knowledge.
It is a tool. I don’t use my tablesaw to cut trim, because it isn’t the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t use a computer to cook a meal for the same reason.
Scientific method has a big place in the search for answers. Much of what we know, or think we do, today is due to it. But Hamlet said it best- “There are more things in heaven and earth, scientist, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
Honestly, I pity people like you who limit experience to those things you can categorize and define.
Re 3
Using only reason and logic to view the world is like looking at the Sistine Chapel and seeing only blacks and whites. Or looking at the Grand Canyon without depth perception. You might get a hint of the grandeur of the work, but you would be missing most of the wonder of it.
As I said, I pity people like you who live without this kind of wonder.
Once again a moronic progressive DeadFrog is telling us Odumba is black. Wait a minute… he’s 50% whitey too.
@12, Cynical,
I assume you consider the Bible to be “the inspired word of god”, correct?
I consider it to be a compendium of texts mostly of the mythology of a neolithic set of tribes several thousand years ago. Written by humans, and perhaps more importantly, edited and selected and included/excluded by humans. Moreover, I reject the notion of “god” as some sort of divine personality in the first place.
As such, I see no point in engaging with you in a “study” or discussion of this text, as I find your view of it to be essentially delusional.
And, for your information, I have had the opportunity to spend a bit of time with this particular text – having been raised in a religious home, attending parish grade school and Jesuit prep school, including college-credit level theology courses. I DO NOT say that as some sort of justification or validation of my views, merely refuting your self-righteousness and condescension – one need not have been indoctrinated as I was to have a rational opinion of Bible-belief. As a historic artifact, anyone can weigh in with a considered opinion of it.
Furthermore, my comment @3 was directed at your ill-informed and fairly offensive views about the world views of “Atheist Progressives”. You referred to “explaining” “understanding” and “grasping” and their respective relationships with existence – implying (incorrectly) that trying to rigorously understand our world is somehow arrogant, or something – you do need to tighten up your arguments.
Lost @14,15
I was responding to Cynical’s asinine comments about atheists’ need to explain the world, and how that’s arrogant, or something. It was his fairly transparent, though apparently un-self-aware projection of “god-in-the-gap” logical fallacy that was most glaring.
I never denied the centrality of art or amazement or grandeur in human experience, nor human endeavor to come to terms with that experience in a myriad of ways, including the non-scientific; nor would most scientists I know, or “Atheist Progressives” in general, for that matter.
I simply reject having to inject ‘god” into every situation where the awesome, or the seemingly intractable, exists. One can create art, one can investigate with the scientific method, one can be moral, one can be awestruck at the breadth and beauty of the universe, all without invoking a divine personality.
@17: actually, they were late Bronze to Iron Age, if you want to be accurate. There’s a couple of very interesting books by an archaeologist named Israel Finkelstein who sets out a solid case for the earlier books of the Bible being written around 700 BC.
@13: I have read it. It’s full of crazy passages like this. Now what?
@19 thank you, precision and accuracy are good.
The argument still stands, of course.
@13: Since you suggest we start with Genesis, one of the stranger parts is chapter 38. (too long to quote, link: http://www.biblegateway.com/pa.....ersion=ESV )
No need to take individual verses out of context. This chapter is pretty much the original template for modern conservative sexual morality. Judah thinks nothing of taking a prostitute for himself, but is ready to burn his daughter-in-law when she becomes pregnant… until it turns out that the kids are his! Epic.
Everyone casts an anchor out in some way to deal with the complexity of life. For rationalists this can be in seeking knowledge of how and why. For theists this can be in seeking for the source of that knowledge, as they see it, in a deity.
For me a world without a God is like a building without an architect, or a sculpture without a sculptor. I’ve studied history, a basic education in the sciences (I was a liberal arts major) the construction of the world and the organisms inhabiting it. I don’t claim to be a scientist, or a physicist or a geologist or any other ‘ist.’ But I can’t conceive of the world in all its coherent complexity as a cosmic accident.
I don’t need for you to believe in the same thing to validate that opinion, nor do I think less of you for coming to a different conclusion. I do ask of atheists that same courtesy. You seem largely able to do this, but I can’t help be offended by the arrogance of men like Hitchens and his fellows who make a career of provocation.
@15 Lost sez, “As I said, I pity people like you who live without this kind of wonder.”
The Aztec shaman was heard to mutter to the Conquistador as he cut his sun-dried Psylocybe Mexicana into bite-sized pieces, “I pity people like you who live without this kind of wonder.”
What’s with the pity fest? Do you really think that we have to be you in order to have a deep thought or two when presented with the grandeur and beauty of this world and the universe in which we reside?
Q: How many guys named Lost does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Just one. A guy named Lost just hangs onto the bulb as the whole world revolves around him.
Re 23
And good morning to you, as well, Steve.
Who’s ‘we?’ I thought you were a believer in God yourself, or was that just to provoke argument?
Just curious- Do you really think all the personal abuse bothers me?
“But I can’t conceive of the world in all its coherent complexity as a cosmic accident.”
Every world in this cosmos is a complex world and the cosmos itself may be the accident. We have oceans larger than earth’s in our own solar system that we haven’t explored. Hmm, speaking of which, I wonder if God ever sent a squid-like son to Europa to save the squid there. It’d be a shame if Europa’s squid don’t get to go to squid heaven just because Jesus can’t swim or something like that.
@22 LS of B
What you describe is no different from deism .. the vague belief in an impersonal force underlying reality or even morality. This was the religion of Franklin and Jefferson.
Deism is, closer to atheism than to Christianity. Belief in an underlying reality is far different from believing in a triune God or Sinai.
A last point, while you may be reassured by belief in a undelrying God, how is that different from belief in an equally powerful but malevolent being?
@15: completelylost spews:
Really cliche bullshit.
Of course we wonder, then we work on figuring it out instead of ascribing it to magic.
It’s really that simple.
And you’re an ignorant ass.
Lostinaseaofblue ask Steve Steve Steve
Lost, it’s the many voices heard inside of Steve Steve Steve’s head.
“I thought you were a believer in God yourself”
I am a Christian. Christianity is the very framework of my existence. But I choose not to perceive the world, the universe and God as might some bronze-age tribesman. As a courtesy I can speak the Christo-lingo with people I love. But such courtesies aren’t extended here.
“Do you really think all the personal abuse bothers me”
It’s not about you. It isn’t even much about me. Get past that and you might start to understand why I’m here.
@22
The problem I have with god-belief is several-fold.
First, as opposed to science, and rationality more generally, it seems not to adapt. Central to religiosity is a need to be “right” or “the chosen” or to have faith in a dogmatic orthodoxy. This leads to rigidity and rejection of the new and different, of discovery. However, if you want to do that on your own – fine, whatever.
Second, having a deity that is “other” allows for the opportunity for someone or an organization to play the role of intercessor. A HUGE pitfall, it seems, that allows the emergence of a docile “flock” that can be easily manipulated and exploited by the priesthood. (I use the term priesthood very loosely – this could be televangelist, the pope, religion-pandering politician, etc – anyone with an interest in power). Now we have groups of people being mobilized by shared “belief” and led by others claiming to have god’s ear. These groups can now enrich their leaders and make them influential – they being any of Pat Robertson, the Council of Catholic Bishops, Billy Graham, Osama bin Laden, Rev. Sun, etc.
Thirdly, and perhaps most devastating, is that specifying a god seems to devolve into tribalism – my GOD is better than yours – and we have the nuclear weapons to prove it. God is on our side, we’re fighting the godless heathen communists, they believe in 42 different gods, their god is not our GOD, etc, etc. And we arrive at the Crusades (then and now), Col. William Boykin and the rest of the aggressive fundies in the US military, wahabist Islam, fundamental Christianity and on and on.
The inane comments by Cynical near the beginning of this thread are telling – and I think widespread and emblematic of a religious worldview. He conflates a godless viewpoint with arrogance, when it is in fact an act of humility to say “I do not know” and then endeavor to try to find out and understand. It seems more arrogant to me to say “my god says it was x” and be satisfied with that answer.
gotta go for awhile and feed the kids…absence for a bit not a sign of disengagement…
@28 “Who’s ‘we?’”
Now you’re denying the existence of an ocean on Europa? Good grief. Let me help you out here. By “we” I mean anybody with a clue so, yeah, I can see how you might feel excluded from that one.
You see, Lost, this is what can happen when a Christian gets stuck in a bronze-age mind-set.
“Lostinaseaofblue ask Steve”
Lost might ask Puddy WTF ever happened to Ellen White’s prophecies of doom? It’s going on two centuries now! WTF is the holdup?
Re 26
It is deism, if it ends there. Deism is the faith of the faithless. It gives the comfort of eternity to those unwilling to accept the consequences of such a belief. It doesn’t end with deism, for me. For me it was a starting point. But my belief in Christianity and the years of study and doubt that brought me where I am are personal. I don’t tell you or Liberal or anyone else what to believe because that isn’t my right.
Why not a malevolent supreme being? I know a craftsman by his or her work. The world is an amazingly beautiful place. This is true whether considering natural beauty or the works of men. To create beauty from malevolence is impossible. Don’t believe me? Look at modern ‘art.’ With garbage as an inspiration you get garbage.
re 27
Zotz, you never have anything to say. You simply scream outs insults. If you have a coherent argument I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise you are not worth the response. I respond here to explain this basic principle of discourse to you in hope that you have some actual substance somewhere.
You and Hitchens and all the other loud mouthed adolescents who use atheism as an excuse for anti social behavior are a disgrace to principled rationalists who came to atheism by study and thought.
RE 32
Maybe it’s me, but I don’t understand this post.
I never mentioned Europa in any context. You did.
“You see, Lost, this is what can happen when a Christian gets stuck in a bronze-age mind-set.” What is ‘this?’
FYI, any reader of the classics understands why we call them that. Human nature doesn’t change much. Achilles petulance at the gates of Troy has been repeated countless times by different military men and other leaders through the centuries. Dante catalogued the range of human behavior from the sinister to the beneficent, however you care to see his motivation in doing so. You could read the Comedia today and see parallels all around you nearly 800 years later. So when talking about human nature Bronze Age really isn’t apposite.
And I apologize for questioning your faith. That is outside of my right or ability.
Liberal,
I have other things to do, so will have to content myself with this response to 30.
With regard to your first paragraph-
I’m sure you’ve met dogmatists in the scientific community. Some people use knowledge as a defense, whatever the source. Some in any grouping will use knowledge as a cudgel to beat up on those they consider inferiors. This isn’t specific to religion. It is an expression of human nature.
Your second paragraph is spot on. I don’t defend religious bigots. I do say that in a group (Christians) who start with the belief that they are requiring divine help to become better people this can be a starting point, when someone accepts that the behavior is wrong. But to argue against the idea that folks have used religion as an excuse for all kinds of violence and un-divine behavior would be pointless.
Your third paragraph is a derivative of the second and first. Some people will use religion as a weapon, and this is inevitable. Some scientists will use their own dogmatism as a weapon. It doesn’t discredit religion or science. It discredits the dogmatists.
I’d love to discuss this further, but have 8 hours worth of stuff my wife is insisting I do and 4 hours to do it.
Have fun.
@33: Discourse requires rational argument based on facts and evidence, none of which are present in your case.
You can’t even make a real point; you just repeat cartoon carnival, cliche bullshit.
BTW, I know actual christians. We get on fine. But you’re not a christian; you’re just a so-called christian and a dumbass to boot.
Get a clue, man! Your drivel doesn’t warrant anything but ridicule.
That’s really interesting SeattleJew has settled for the book “The Godless Constitution“. Why didn’t SeattleJew look these facts up for himself? Now about Franklin and Jefferson being deists, Hmmm… Butt let’s dispense with the libtardo revisionist view of history and get down to real facts.
The first Bible printed in English in America came from the Continental Congress. They printed 10,000 Bibles in the Continental Congress. 22 survive unto this day. In this Bible is the inscription, “A neat addition of the Holy Scripture for use of our schools”.
Ben Franklin who once said as a response to a question “There is a God” also said this…
Then there is George Washington who on 01/01/1795 while President of the United States said
Oh no, February 19th 1795 as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer. Oh my!
Then Samuel Adams believed in the Creator… Oh no a state religion.
Here is more on Samuel Adams.
Then there is Founding Father Benjamin Rush.
Ben Rush help mass produce The Bible in the United States. Furthermore, Rush was one of the first people to describe Savant Syndrome. Say it ain’t so Puddy. Sorry it’s so! Look at all the savants on Goldy’ side of the aisle!
Then good old Thomas Jefferson who said…
Deist SeattleJew… I thought someone as erudite as you claim to be wouldn’t swallow the pablum from two professors who wanted everyone to believe the founding fathers were Deists. It was Jefferson who first proposed the Seal of the United States be “Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night.” Ben Franklin instead wanted the “Parting of the Red Sea”.
So much for that worthless Deist argument thrown around by HA Libtardos.
“I respond here to explain this basic principle of discourse to you in hope”
Lost must have missed the part where he repeatedly insulted people in this thread. That’s the tiresome Lost in a nutshell. He insults everybody and then whines when we dish it back.
So anyways, do you want to explore some beliefs, Lost? Let’s ask Puddy some questions about the 27 funamental beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists. He took a vow to those. Are you familiar with those? If not, do some Googling and get back to me. What’s your church, Lost? Do you mind if we discuss the specific fundamental’s of your faith? And by any chance are there any Golden Salamanders involved?
There is no my God is better than your God.
There is only one God, Master and Creator of the Universe.
So Zotz, there are seven factual links in Puddy’s discourse above. You provide nothing but hot air and horseshit!
Steve Steve Steve,
Ummm… Steve Steve Steve it was your libtardo friends who first called Puddy names… Puddy asked nicely for you to research this in clueless goober arschloch goatsee’s vaulted home database of HA Libtardos. Butt you didn’t want to grow a pair and ask the clueless goober arschloch goatsee. Now you are on your “It’s a Psych 101 thing” rant again, the lowest of your common denominator rants when you have nothing left in the “tank”.
If you are gonna throw stuff on this blog then you need to ensure they are factual.
It’s 28 Fundamental Beliefs not 27. Apparently your Googling was another EPIC FAIL. And Steve Steve Steve, why are you looking at the speck in Puddy’s eye when there’s that big Sequoia Tree Trunk in yours?
Her’s a shocker for Zotz or is it Zitz…
Why don’t savant syndrome fools like Zotz(Zitz) use the Internet instead of someone’s foolish revisionist book?
@38: Yawn…
Hey Zotz (another Zitz pops up on his face),
It was George Washington, our first President of the United States and the crosser of the Potomac who said: “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
Oh no Zots. How does that new pimple feel?
Zotz @41
Thank you so much for making Puddy’s point. Let Puddy reiterate it again… You provide nothing but hot air and horseshit!
YAWN! (expectoration of gaseous pollution, and a new Zitz appears)
Liberal Scientist @ 18 & 19–
Kind of a long-winded gasbagging answer to a simple question.
Why not simply say “I have never read the Bible”? Afraid it makes you look like a pinhead for criticizing the most widely read Book in the History of Mankind…without ever actually reading it?
I just got off the phone with a guy we hire every summer to do various projects. He was supposed to be here to more to start work on a 14′ X 25′ addition to our back deck. We pay him $30/hr. He just went thru a divorce, signed up for E-Harmony & has been a dating machine. He called to tell me he is in Spokane with a woman he met thru E-Harmony and won’t be back until Wed. So it goes.
But it did get me to thinking about our lonesome Goldy. Goldy, have you ever thought about E-Harmony? I’ve even helped write a profile for you–
Divorced, Balding, Paunchy Jew with a child who is extremely opinionated and vehemently denies the existence of God. I am unemployed with no prospects whatsoever. I have my own Blog called HorsesAss.org where I enjoy using profanity, ridiculing Christians and twisting Scripture. I’ve been told on numerous occasions that my voice is similiar to Pee-Wee Herman’s, only more annoying. I eat garlic regularly and don’t own a toothbrush. My idea of changing my underwear is to turn ’em inside out…then swap ’em with YLB. My Hygiene and Lowgiene are quite poor.
I try to get every mile out of my car tires…even if it means a blow out & tying up Freeway Traffic for an hour. I am totally incompetent around the house. I am desperate to get laid.
That’s a fair start Goldy.
Bet your phone will be ringing off the hook and the babes will be lined up for the opportunity of a lifetime.
Perhaps Goldy you deny God because you are lonely & unhappy with how you were made?
@33 33. lostinaseaofblue spews:
Consquences?
If yuo mean heaven v Hell .. Judaism has beither. Is Judaism Deism?
How can “study” lead to an acceptance of anything as complex and detailed as the Jesus story? QWhy believe that story any more3 or less than the Moroni or Raven stories?
On this we agree .. but as a non Chgristian, evangleims seems to me to be central to Chrstianity.
@44 Cynical – I tried to be nice, but you’re a complete idiot.
(BTW, I responded to you at 17, and to Lost at 18. Someone else wrote post 19.)
I don’t have to prove my experience reading the bible or studying theology to you, though I answered that question already.
And I don’t choose to engage in some organized bible study with you, it’s an offer really akin to “why don’t you come to my church and find the good news?” I reject the premise.
And your comment at 45 really reveals what a prick you are.
36. Puddybud sez, A\
a. are you afrreaid to answer God when he she or it post here?
b. as for you view of the founders .,. of ocurse there were theitsts. However, neother Jefferson nor Franklinb believed in the xostance of a God in your sense. Both boeieved in the xistance of ethics and both felot that ethics/ miorlaity derived form somewhere .. call it GFod if you like.
Both were adamantly opposed to the worsyhip of Jesus as a Gid, in Jefferson’s case so much so that he razored the Roman Bible. Franlin was less corageous than Jefferosn becuase Ben was a better businessman, but he also wrote of “God” as a device to enocurage morality and ethics.
Both, esp Franklin, encouraged beliefs in a wide variety of kinds of God and neither eschewed atheism.
Sam Adams was a Christian, he mw2as also a terrorist responsi8ble for stunning acts of violehnce.
“The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”
Yep .. that is Deism.
Now find a quotre where he talks about doing good becuae else jesus or the Devil will punjish you.
Note that he says ALL denominations … hardly nthe npier4ced deity of your truths!
O
Ben Rush help mass produce The Bible in the United States. Furthermore, Rush was one of the first people to describe Savant Syndrome. Say it ain’t so Puddy. Sorry it’s so! Look at all the savants on Goldy’ side of the aisle!
Then good old Thomas Jefferson who said…
“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.” – – – You can find the link is above SeattleJew
Deist SeattleJew… I thought someone as erudite as you claim to be wouldn’t swallow the pablum from two professors who wanted everyone to believe the founding fathers were Deists. It was Jefferson who first proposed the Seal of the United States be “Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night.” Ben Franklin instead wanted the “Parting of the Red Sea”.
I am shocked that nthe early S hads a Chrsitian in it, shocked.
SeattleJew.. your God posts are getting worse and worse.
Puddy placed direct quotes of Franklin and Jefferson stating their religious positions.
You’d better revisit WikiPedia’s definition of Deism SJ(god). Since they approved the printing of the Bible by the Continental Congress this Deist fact is exploded…Rejection of all religions based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God.
BTW could you translate this SJ(god)?Note that he says ALL denominations … hardly nthe npier4ced deity of your truths! and also I am shocked that nthe early S hads a Chrsitian in it, shocked.
SJ,
“Is Judaism Deism?” I don’t know. I’m not of the Jewish faith and have no right to commment on it. So far as my limited understanding goes Judaism and Christianity share a common start and diverge at Christ. But that’s what I’ve been told from a Christian perspective. I’d be interested in what this looks like from a Jewish perspective.
By consequences I mean that if you assume an omnipotent God exists whether you are Jewish or Christian some responsibility exists. For me heaven and hell are less important than how my faith informs my life here, but whatever works for you is fine with me.
Evangelism is a touchy subject for some Christians and a lot of non-Christians. On the one hand Christ specifically tells us (Christians) that we have a duty to spread his word. On the other Christianity is at its heart a personal choice I neither could nor should force on anyone. I really don’t know the balance. What I try to do is live a life that exemplifies what Christ taught and let God do the rest. Probably I’m theologically off base here. Certainly my life as an example is so far from perfect I hesitate to even write this. But everyone has to start somewhere.
As far as study supporting my Christianity, I don’t find the story that complex. To the contrary from first to last it has a coherence I don’t find in other faiths. But this is entirely my point of view and opinion. What you believe is your business.
Have a nice evening.
Mr. Klynical the goat herder’s humor is of the highest caliber.
Mean-spirited and at times racist, it will sustain him and propel him through the pearly gates. Believers will throng to spend eternity in Heaven with Mr. Klynical.
Highest recommendation!
BTW ..
the same puritans Puddy likes, burned witches, threw Jews out of their communities, and were the major supportes of slavery in England.
Cynical,
It might be worth reading over your post at 45 and considering if that really is a message you find appropriate in light of your professed faith.
SJ,
Actually, this is only true IF you accept the divinity of Jesus. for at least 100 years after Jesus time, his followers, esp led by his brother James, considered themselves Jews. They were no more heretical than the Essenes, inter alia.
I Judaism there is no line between ethics/morals and God. Torah and God are the same thing, It si meaningless to separate the Law (Torah)from the Deity. This is pretty much a Deistic POV.
Also, Judaism teaches that the morals and ethics exist for all men, regardless of whether they believe in God. A Muslim, an atheist, a Buddhist .. all of these are the same and considered holier than Jews if they lead moral lives.
This IS the crux of the difference between Judaism and Christianity, ” Christ specifically tells us (Christians) that we have a duty to spread his word.”
Sounds like Jeffersonism .. aka Deism. I suppose the dividing line s whether you consider God more important, esp in the form of Jesus, than the Law.
I suspect you would find a lot of good in Judaism, Suffi Islam … and esp Buddhism. All of these heve the advantage of not being exclusive that is teaching that a good life, finding the law is the important thing. “God” is just one path to that end.
Jefferson and his peers saw Jesus as great teahcer ..even a unique teacher BUT they were ignoranat of the great bteachings of Buddhism, Islam, and Judaism.
Puddy
Whatever you may beieve about me or what I write, I am not God.
Whoever is writing those posts seems to me to say things closer to your own beliefs than mine. Beats me why you do not answer Him yet sccept the Roman Bible as His word?
Is she is a sockpuppet for me or someone else, why wouldn’t you answer his questions? Semms to me you are afraid of somet hing.
As for my bad typing ..
I typed, “Note that he says ALL denominations … hardly nthe npier4ced deity of your truths!”
Note that he says ALL denominations … hardly the pierced deity of your truths!”
I challenge you to find and quoattion form Franlin or Jefferson that espouses the story of divine sacrifice or even the divi9nity of Jesus.
I would be quite ahppy to worship together with Jefferson and Franklijn, I do not think you woould be comfortable with either one.
53. lostinaseaofblue spews:
It is a bit mean-spirited lost.
I appreciate the accountability.
Just because things are factually correct doesn’t mean they should be used as a weapon.
I’m sorry Goldy.
SJ–
Yeah right.
You are posting as God…I busted you on it months ago.
Perhaps your memory is now failing you?
SJ
Not trying to proselytize, but to a Christian Jesus is more than a prophet or teacher. If that were all he were no necessity for him would exist. You accurately point out that prophets and teachers are extant without Christ, good ones.
To a Christian Jesus in his life gave us an example of Godliness as practiced by a perfect human being. More importantly in his death and resurrection he gave human beings forever a direct contact with Gods’ grace. The Christian assumption is that we are all distancing ourselves from God through sin and Christ is the bridge.
I don’t personally separate law and God. They are one and the same. To put it another way, I don’t look for ways not to hurt my wife or make her angry. I love her and try to do what is pleasing to her within an ongoing relationship. I wouldn’t be unfaithful or cruel, because that would hurt her. Because I love her when she is hurt or unhappy, I usually am too. In the same way I don’t look for rules in the Bible. I try, and fail as often as not, to do what I understand to be pleasing to God. When I fail the grace Christ bought on the cross is the means of reconciliation.
Again, theologically I’m likely appalling any number of much smarter Christians. I hope to be open to correction where I’m wrong, within Christianity or not.
Cynical @45,
I don’t “twist” scripture. I merely quote verse, with little or no commentary. It’s not my fault that the Christian Bible is what it is.
And I don’t deny God; that’s a very God-centric way of putting it. No, as I once explained to my Catholic mother-in-law, “I don’t believe in ghosts, and I don’t believe in Holy Ghosts.”
I simply don’t believe in the supernatural. No werewolves. No vampires. No gods. Never did. Never even occurred to me that I should. Just don’t have the spirituality gene, and don’t particularly feel like I’m missing anything.
Here’s Puddy’s fundamental belief #6,
A simple question for you, Puddy. How old is the earth?
Some one here gets way too much of his information from Beck/Barton. Perhaps some actual factual (real) evidence might help. Then of course there is that pesky matter of Barton’s intentional misinformation about the 1782 Aitken Bible.
Pot calling kettle black from the clueless goober arschloch goatsee.
Steve Steve Steve, Puddy already answered this multiple times. Grow a pair and ask the clueless goober arschloch goatsee for the multiple posts.
But wait a minute Steve Steve Steve, you claimed to be a Christian on HA so how old is the Earth?
GO ON, GROW A PAIR!
So SJ, now you are going to stop posting as “god”?
Regarding Jefferson and Franklin, the Deist term is one of those progressive whitewashes to take God out of the Founding Fathers. All those links in post #36 are their words and writings.
Yet progressives such as you can’t swallow their personal Biblical beliefs so you progressives are rewriting history!
@64 Ouddy,
As you know, I never lie.
I suppose one test you might try on yourself (since God will not be tested) is whether this “god” ever lies? Has He?
What I have seen, seems to me to be pretty simple … calling on you to be good. What is ungodlike about that?
Puddy,
as for Jefferson and Franklin, sorry but you are FOS on this. Both of these men left enopugh writing to mnake it entirely clear that they did not accept the idea that Jesu was a dvine and the views of both were absolutely clear that their concepts of God wer on a non intervening cause of good.
Maybe you ought to read some3thing a bit more meaty then the Wiki. BTW, unlike the Roman Bible’s version of Jesus, we have the actual words of Ben and Tom.
If you want founding father to indetify with, you might want to try Cotton Mathwer.
“you claimed to be a Christian on HA so how old is the Earth?”
I am a Christian. The earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, of course. I take it that you agree with Bishop Ussher’s conclusion that the earth was created on October 22, 4004 BC. You just don’t have the courage to just say so. Your “grow a pair” remark was obviously just another instance of projection – a Psych 101 thing, in case you didn’t know. Sigh! Go ahead and denounce me and tell the world that I am not a true Christian because I don’t agree with your silly notion that the earth is roughly 6,000 years old.
@58. lostinaseaofblue spews:
TGood discussion .. mayhpa of a quality beyond HA. Be fun t meet up and talk more.
I know that and appreciate it
Yes but the ONLY unque message of Jesus, as opposed to Buddha and Hillel, is the claim of personal salvation through himself. To be blunt, I find that idea .. of a Deity so selfish as to require worship for salvation . , odious.
I know that and think you have a beautiful view of Christian mysticism. However, we .. humans .. have jad many examples of perfection, examples emobodied in humans who led lives more saintly, more just good, then the life of Jesus as in the Roman Bible. My own favorites among the famous are: Siddartha (Buddha), MLK, Hillel, Spinoza, Gandhi, Jefferson, Cesar Chavez … buit I also inlcude others I have been fortunate enough to meet including some of my own teachers, relatives a dnb friends.
The examples and writings of these arhants (Buddhist term) seem to me to be a marvelous insight itno what I can be .. an insight that does not require me to reject any one else’s beliefs because I have a personal savior.
The Jesus story bothers me in other ways. In the klife depicted in the Roman Bible, jesus never does a good deed .. that is a deed where he gives of himself, he coounsels acceptance of Roman tyrrany, never marries, … Addto that the “I am the path” sin of vainglory and the result is not attractive.
I take a different view of good christians. y vioew is that some have used this story as a joga, what Buddha called a discipline. The sotry is only importnat as a device to arrive at the law. It is also only one such path. Chrstians who feel that waymay be Quzakers or Episcoplains, catholics or Baptists .. bit NEVER evangelists!
Sound like my own views odf the law .. excelopt I see it as my responsibility to discover the law. If I fail, I do my best to make restiution.
I think we are similar. As long is Jesus is nto an e4nd in and of himself, I can see how … and have seen .. how beautiful Christinaity can be.
@57 Mr. C.
I do remember your saying this before but you did not make sense then either.
By the way, my own taste in Gods is more eclectic than just one. I find raven, Mithra, Shaddia, and Ashera … any God who does not forment hate is useful.
Other than your lack of faith inb the HA God, why do you not answer hwer? The questions seem pretty easy to me.
@3
coughing on your own bullshit?
Survey says YES!
Steve Steve Steve, it you among others who ask for an answer to an oft repeated question, get the answer, then forget the answer 5 months later and have to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over. So to mitigate this issue Puddy has suggested many times to you Steve Steve Steve to ask the clueless goober arschloch goatsee. He as ALMOST every PuddyComment saved. So before you ask a question just ask the dumb brick first. It will save you time and absolute embarrassment when you enter into your “It’s a Psych 101 thing” revolving commentary. So growing a pair is now one of your insipid “It’s a Psych 101 thing” arguments.
Steve Steve Steve, instead of being touched by an angel you were touched by an idiot, a leftist progressive idiot. So who were you congregating around today.
Ooops… that’s Mrs Puddy so Puddy’s gotta go now.
SeattleJew talk to you later on the alternative media line! You know how demanding Mrs Puddy can be since you and Mrs Jew met her!
But for you Steve Steve Steve since you were touched by and idiot, Puddy says the Earth is a little over 4000 years old. And when Jesus returns in His Clouds of Glory and tells you something like that what say you?
Check out my new handle!
Wow junk shot. Not being too consistent are you?
http://horsesass.org/?p=1692#comment-410847
I thought you had the mainline to the man upstairs!
Tweaked the handle a bit. There we go!
@71 You’re not making any sense again, Puddy. WTF you talking ’bout?
Great show on American music tonight on PBS. Imagine being Harold Arlen and you have the great Lena Horne singing one song you wrote, Stormy Weather, and a young Judy Garland singing another, Over the Rainbow, both performances captured on film and saved for the ages. Unless civilization falls, or your wetdream of an apocalypse comes true, those performances will last as long as the pyramids, maybe longer. To contemplate anything human and more immortal than that likely requires faith in a God and the hereafter.
@72 Puddy believes, “It’s a little more than 6000 years old! And when judgment day arrives, what will you say to your maker for believing junk science?”
I can see why Puddy struggles to accept climate change, YLB. He has to work his way through a few other science related issues first.
59. Goldy spews:
I have heard your type of rationalization many times before. You say you don’t “deny” God & the Bible…yet certainly you do.
Jesus Christ lived among us as all man and all God to understand our pain and take our sin to the Cross, dying an agonizing death to pay in full our price for sin.
As lost said…He was God’s answer… a bridge to Him for us. A free gift for those who take the giant step to believe.
Atheists love to poke fun at Christians who publicly fail. They don’t get it. If we were all perfect, we wouldn’t need Christ as a bridge to God, would we?
You seem to want Goldy to beleive in You.
I am that I am.
@76: Klynical
If you want to promote God, maybe you should start by telling the truth and by starting to realize that stupidity does endear you to people or make them want to emulate you.
If you want to promote God, then set a good example. Instead you are childish, ignorant and anything but humble. A real person of God would be ashamed of Klynical and how you act.
@78 correct not right
In defence of Cynical?
CNR
You seem not to understand.
Why do you suppose Puddy and mr, Cynical do not believe ion Me?
They speak for a god who is very different from Me. Their “God” is the god of Falwell and Torquemada. Their god led godly poeple into the crusades and jihads. Their god is so jealous of his name that he would condemn Gandhi and Jefferson to Hell for not believing in the divinity of Jesus.
If Puddy and mr. Cynical were correct, I would ne a cruel god indeed.
I am that I am.
@ 76
Prove it.
Using real, tangible, physical evidence. With actual, independently developed and verified non-prejudicial sources. I do not believe anything based soley on the word of someone who is using “faith” to support and enrich themselves, which they all do, that being the real purpose of encouraging unquestioning “faith”.
I refuse to accept anything on “faith”. Faith means someone is trying to rip me off.
Why do “ministers” and Priests never seem to have any real jobs or do any real work? They can make shitloads of money, can conduct any business they desire, and not have to pay taxes or be held accountable for their actions as long as they call themselves a “church”.
Seems to me it’s merely that same old flim flam. Entertain the crowds from the front, keep their eyes on the stage while the dips work the back of the crowd. While the pimps whisper in your childrens ears. While the murderers demand social acceptance of their intentions and the bodies of the young men to follow their leadership when they want to kill people, rationalizing it by calling those people “unbelievers”.
It’s that same old graft, only somehow, made socially acceptable by mere peer pressure, and politically expedient to anyone wanting in on the scam.
Prove it. Prove that it is something that encourages the greater aspects of human intelligences and the advancement of the species, and not just a tool for grifters, thieves, killers and pedophiles to gain access to the marks, their money and their children.
@80 Dfrog
You may have made a point here that you did not realize ..”Prove that it is something that encourages the greater aspects of human intelligences an”
Some”thing” is very different from some”one.” Those who see a need to have personal gods .. whether that is Jesus or Ahurumazda, want to somne”one” like them to take responsibility for what they should do on their own.
Do good for others, any comment on my wished beyond that misses the point of My being.
I may be God, but I do not need the worship or the blame the devotees offer unto me.
I am that I am.
Steve @ 75
Funny that I can dig up quotes from junk-shot that claims he is convinced that global warming is happening, that Greenland is indeed melting..
But he said God is doing the warming not man. And of course it’s all because God is ending the world.
Junk shot was reading Revelations heavily in those days. And of course only HE, junk-shot, had the true interpretation of the scripture.
“Prove that it is something that encourages the greater aspects of human intelligences and the advancement of the species, and not just a tool for grifters, thieves, killers and pedophiles to gain access to the marks, their money and their children.”
I’d say that Christianity, or any faith really, is no more a good in itself than any other value. It’s good when and if it is good. I see it being like the little girl with the curl. When it’s good, it’s very good. When it’s bad, it’s horrible.
Bye the bye, if anybdoy’s interested, Phyllis Schafly’s little boy Andrew is posting completed books of his wingnut spin on the inviolate Word of God on the Conservapedia site. No link offered. Find that shit yourselves, you leftist pharisees, er, intellectuals, er, whatever.
@82, Strange way of seeing things, isn’t it? That is, the end of the world being a good thing and all that. With that view, it really doesn’t matter what is causing bad shit to happen to our environment. Bad shit happening becomes a good in itself.
What’s all this about eating Fruit of the Looms?
Oh, that’s very different…Never mind.
And now we’re denigrating Bishop Ussher’s math skills! What is this world coming to?
I am going to get some more comments up in here. I just found out I’m #5 (or was). RR, watch out.
Yeah, right.
Donner Expedition?
Soylent Green
Maybe this text is a prediction about a God who so loved the world he had his own son crucified and then encouraged millions of people. albeit ritually, to celebrate the cruelty and the human sacrifice by eating the blood and body?
No disrespect to any catholic, but to those of us looking in from the outside this practice ranks with 6 inch high heels, breast implants, foot binding, and male castration as easily rivalling anything celebrated amongst the natives who populate the National Geographic.
BTW ..
Mr. C and Puddy seem to have disappeared, maybe the God of HA does have magic powers?
To SJ who likes to “play god”
Puddy suggested if you are going to play god you need to proofread. “beleive” doesn’t cut it SeattleJew.
Puddy …
If that is your best evidence for who God is or is not, you are in real trouble.
How do you spell Gid’s name??? yod heh vov heh? How do you pronounce that?
Also since you like web based resources:
“7. We beleive in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. ”
While we are at it, you might Google “ghoti” and then ask your self how shaw would have speeld believe?
BTW, is Hawking as good a “witness” for the face of God as we have had .. try the email link I just sent you.
BTW in hebrew Ha is “The” so I supose the Deity you have been talking with or refusing to talk with must be The God? (HA God).
BTW … still seesm to me that you are afraid to answer God’s posts. Maybe, since you think He is me (lc), you could address your answers to Him as if He is me and He will choose to answer?
But then I am only a person, certainly not a god of any rank.
@93. SJ
I have noted your typing disability. As a small gesture , may I offer to cure it?
Hold your right hand flat on the screen as you recite the schma.
With your left hand only, type “QED qed”
Repeat this with your left hand on the screen and type “YUM yum”
Now with both hands type, “YHVH yhvh”.
Repeat this three times, the last time with your eyes closed.
Now you will be able to type perfectly.
I am that I am.