1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Discuss.
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Wine in the New Testament was fresh grape juice. Jesus was attending this wedding feast in Cana, and when the wine ran short, his mother called upon him. Jesus provided for it bountifully. Each of the clay pots was about 30 gallons each. This was a small town less than 1000 people. Everyone probably knew each other. The father was embarrassed to run out of grape juice so Jesus came to his rescue. Jesus always comes to the rescue for those who truly believe in Him. And this Jesus created grape juice tastes better than the original placed at the wedding feast.
Now why would Jesus make alcoholic based wine on this occasion libtards? Remember what happened to Noah and his sons? Lot and his daughters? Proverbs discusses what happens when you drink alcoholic wine. Alcohol is used by Satan to dull the senses, get females to drop their panties, etc [apologies to worser and the teabaggin buttbusting BULLSHITTIUM buttbigot gorilla as Puddy is hetero]. If he was drunk how would the governor of the feast know the taste of this Jesus created grape juice from the former provided earlier?
Hmmm…?
Also Paul discusses Romans 1:18-32, God’s wrath against sinful humanity. There are some references progressive FASCIST libtard DUMMOCRETINS scream about it wasn’t from Jesus. So this was from Paul too. Hence you DUMMOCRETINS have to discount it as you did with Paul in his Romans commantary above!
HAHAHAHAHAHA! See how life sucks when you say the crap you do FASCISTS?
God could have told us about microbes and bacteria, right? God invented stomach acid, right? God could have suggested calcium carbonate. There was plenty of it just laying around.
The world’s first cure for cancer.
@2 God invented Coca Cola.
@1 Free grape juice for the masses. No wonder the corporatists killed him. No surprise there. The same thing happened to all the inventors of the 1000-mpg carburetor.
@1 “God’s wrath against sinful humanity.”
Maybe this explains George W. Bush and the Republican Party in general, although I prefer to blame human agency.
Yep, the wholly babble solves all your problems.
Thats right. Get drunk. Don’t worry your pretty little heads about the Mullahs, Imams, Rabbis, Ministers and schizophrenic streetcorner preachers picking your pockets and raping your babies. It is God who will judge them, not you.
It isn’t your place.
@1 revisionist Christians like to pretend it wasn’t alcoholic, but it was. The reason it tasted different was because wine tastes different.
@1
But then history gets in the way. The Romans, I think I’ve read about them involving Christ, were very fond of fermented wine. So while wine in ancient times did indeed mean grape juice as well, the fremented kind was very much a part of daily and ceremonial life.
So you’re taking a less than 50% chance that your pastor’s interpretation of this “wine” being mere juice and proclaiming it the word of the Lord, eh?
“Only I have the one true religion.” – Isis, Taliban, Catholicism, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Southern Baptists….
One of the big reasons the Russians didn’t convert to Islam versus Christianity (they were looking at both, at one time) was the Russians fondness for vodka. Once the Russians heard “no alcohol” from Islam, their minds were made up, and the Russians converted to Orthodox Christianity.
They should have just stayed pagans…
Anyone notice that puddy is putting his spin on the word of God? The passage said wine, not grape juice. According to puddy, the bible is not absolute, but is open to interpretation.
We should bookmark this page and remind puddy of it every time he says he has to keep some bigoted position because he follows absolutely what is the bible.
@1 That whole “grape juice” thing is what the fundies taught me when I was a kid. Then I grew up and realized that they were full of shit. Do you have one, count them, one contemporaneous reference that substantiates the idea that when people wrote about wine 2000 years ago that they were really talking about grape juice? Consider this: how long would grapes and or grape juice last in that climate without refrigeration before going bad?
Wine was wine. Romans drank it mixed with water. They laughed at the uncouth barbarians that drank it straight.
Of course, the barbarians were getting a buzz on and they didn’t give a fuck about what the Romans thought.
@12
Actually yes. There wasn’t a distinction between what vintners would now call Must (unfermented grape juice) and Wine in Roman Times. But to jump to the claim that whenever the bible speaks of wine they are referring to this very short period where it was fresh and not yet fermented….well that’s just Piddles pretending his religion has all the answers.
Alcohol is evil and Jesus never partook. Can’t be proven and very, very VERY unlikely in the historical period. Members of Piddles particular zombie cult are discouraged from drinking alcohol or using tobacco and the more crazy of his flock don’t use caffeine as well. It’s all based on how they interpret the scripture. Other interpretations are all good with the hooch.
Both interpretations will likely tell you they are following the one true faith.
@1 Proverbs 31:6-7:
Goldy @14,
Thanks for proving Puddy correct. Alcohol for misery. This was a wedding… Puddy’s wedding was a glorious event. No need to get people drunk!
And what did Jesus do while on the cross when offered the sponge because He said “I thirst”? He spit it out when offered it.
Just as was predicted in the Old Testament checkmate… Keep thinking that was wine.
Puddy loves how atheists interpret the Bible!
Ever heard of blue zones checkmate? http://www.bluezones.com/expedition/loma-linda/
Seems NBC News has checkmate… Sucks to be the ignorant FASCIST libtard DUMMOCRETIN progressive you are every day. http://www.today.com/health/li.....iet-t13931
Carry on moron!
@4
I’m sure the Coca Cola company is ok with people thinking that. After all the recipe is secret. And As everyone knows Coke is god for what ails you, particularly tummy troubles. Remember it’s Coke and a smile! If only Tim had knows about Coke!
@1
So Puddy can you explain why Jesus was acting like a bridegroom and Jesus mom acting like the grooms mom?
PS it was wine though it may have been beer. It was most likely something alcoholic. If prune juice was served it would have been the alcoholic kind. This was a 1st century wedding in that real world. A world where most people drank alcohol because if you drank the water your survival chances went down.
@5 Did anyone else hear the story on NPR about how we became a Christian nation? That it started as a backlash against Roosevelt’s New Deal policies. The corporations sought out certain reverends with a capitalist bent in their religious views and aired them and supported their views. Particularly the point of view you need to be self sufficient and it’s not governments job to help the unemployed or the down and out. Later this dovetailed in with the godless communist rhetoric of the late 40 and 50’s and then we got “God in Trust” on our money and in the pledge of allegiance. I know when I was a kid it was made appoint that you don’t have to say that part. Is that true today? This whole God in Trust thing really seems to be of questionable constitutionality. Unless you need to pander to folks with certain religious views. Must grate against Muslims, Jews, Native American religious leaders, ect. Of course that is the reason for the RFPA at the federal level, but now only if your Christian with a rather fundamentalist outlook so you Catholics aren’t included in this we are a Christian nation bull shit.
@15 No, you miss the point. This is the Bible clearly defining wine as alcoholic.
@17 Don’t forget, Coca Cola removes rust from chrome bumpers, and cures the common cold too!
(Full Disclosure: Roger Rabbit owns Coca Cola stock.)
Addendum to #21 above: Also, you can get drunk on Coca Cola if you add some whiskey to it.
In regards to Ol’ Timothy warning people away from drinking water, they must’ve been fracking back in those days too.
No pasteurization+ no refrigeration pretty much = wine.
maybe not what we would consider good wine. But sacromyces and vitus vinifera evolved together. Most fruit in fact is naturally covered in yeast. So two thousand years ago if you stored grapes and/or grape juice for any length of time it turned into sweet wine within a few days. Perhaps tangy sweet wine, since often as not (owing once again to the absence of pasteurization) you’d have a decent population of acetobacter growing in your juice as well. Folks knew better than to try to age the stuff in the old days. But not all of it turned into vinegar. And over many centuries wise women and men learned some basic sanitation and handling practices and managed occaisionally to produce some ageable dry wine. But honestly, nothing like Welches would have existed except when you could drink it fresh picked.
@24 Right. And what does Puddy think? Grapes are harvested year-round? It’s a summer crop in Israel. Period. The only way to preserve the juice is to let it ferment.
@25,
so what we see is that not only is nature smarter than Puddy’s invisible sky pal, but at least where fruit juice is concerned, nature is more forgiving.
@15 No, you miss the point. This is the Bible clearly defining wine as alcoholic. – Well then if you accept Paul here then Paul’s words in Romans 1:18-32 must be true too! Can’t by lying there and be truthful here!
Thanks for Playing Goldy!
In regards to Ol’ Timothy warning people away from drinking water, they must’ve been fracking back in those days too.
– Ol Timothy senile schismatic IDIOT Wabbit?
Are you really this stooooooooooopid?
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations; and that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between clean and unclean, and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.” Leviticus 10…
Since Paul and Timothy were followers of Christ and since Christ gave Moses those commands for the tabernacle services, why would Christ go against Christ? Only crazed libtards would make this argument.
Bible lesson time for you klowns… Remember Nadab and Abihu? Their use of fermented wine caused them to confuse the sacred fire and the common fire, and they died because of their drunkenness.
Puh-lease… You think God created fermented wine? NOPE this is from Satan… your father! As Puddy wrote above… alcoholic wine dulls the senses… (seems most of you write drunk here all the time since 24 hour moronic moonbattic memory malady is prevalent in every thread) and with dull senses one gets behind the wheel of the chariot and all havoc happens.
Paul is telling Timothy to use pure grape juice.
What happened to checkmate? Must be the truth slap him side his ASS!
@29 First you claim that wine in the Bible is just “grape juice,” and now you cite passages that make clear it’s alcoholic (you know, wine. Which is it?
Good try Goldy… Regarding the Bible telling Christians to stay away from alcoholic wine per Christ, there is no confusion. God is telling his people to stay away from this. God created purity. Satan pollutes it. Hence fermentation. So Paul being a messenger of Christ, the Son of God is going to say something against what Christ has previously said? Drink that which Satan has given to man? Only atheists claim Christ will contradict Christ.
As Puddy wrote before, if you are to accept Paul’s letter to Timothy as fermented wine then you all have to accept Paul’s admonition to Christians against performing homosexual sex! Are you going to accept that Goldy?
Puddy wrote about this long ago. Y’all pooh-poohed it. So if you want to accept Paul here then you have to accept Paul there since Paul wrote Romans before writing Timothy!
Besides Puddy was told the New Testament has no meaning to Jewish people.
@32 “Y’all … ”
Your phonetic fake southern drawl is truly lovable.
Silly senile schismatic IDIOT Wabbit… Momma and Daddy were from Georgia…
Sux to be the senile schismatic IDIOT Wabbit! Not lovable whatsoever! Still thinking Timothy wrote Timothy!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! dumbASS!
@16
What is your point about blue zones relevant to this discussion? One of them is Sardinia which is not known to be a region of teetotalers. (Google Beer + Sardinia) They also make and drink wine there and have for centuries. Their version of Christianity doesn’t hold that wine is evil.
So clearly eschewing alcohol can’t be the root cause of a blue zone though it can be a factor.
Oh checkmate, above you attacked us for our beliefs… The Sardinians eat a high vegetable very low meat diet too. So they drink wine. We drink grape juice. The same affects. So checkmate, another of your EPIC FAYLES!
Sux to be you checkmate!
And checkmate,
The Greek Icarians eat almost no meat and a high vegetable diet with some wine. We choose to drink grape juice and abstain from meat. We’ll be living while you be dead…
And it will still sux to be you!
“God created purity. Satan pollutes it. Hence fermentation.”
Does the devil pollute milk to make cheese then ? How about Fish sauce, Kimchi, Sour cream, Soy sauce, Tabasco Sauce, Worcestershire sauce or Yogurt.
Puddy, are you a hypocrite and pick and choose what devil fermented food products you avoid and which you partake of or do you avoid all of the Satan’s polluted food?
I get that you need your religion to give you meaning and structure for your life, but your version of religion’s interpretation of the bible seems silly to an agnostic.
The shrieking harpie HR nightmare warmongering prick has almost the most hilarious version of christianity I have ever heard (the LDS are still the champs).
@36 & 37
So you’ve moved from discussing a scriptural justification to a scientific one. French Paradox….heard of it? It’s been well known for decades. Read any Pollan? Know what happened to South Pacific Aboriginals when they adopted a Western Diet? Science does. Eating a plant based diet and consuming alcohol in moderate amounts tends to have an effect on longevity.
Did you need your pastor to explain that to you?
Some members of the Zombie cult are vegetarians but not all vegetarians are followers of the Zombie. Vegetarians who adopt their diet after reading scientific and medical research might be surprised to learn that it won’t work unless they follow the one true faith as well.
Now about those matriachal pagans in Okinawa…they might be surpirsed that your resurected lord is the one thing keeping their health together.
@32 I don’t envy you. Gotta be tough reconciling your literal interpretation of the Christian Bible with the many contradictions contained within. A lotta cognitive dissonance to deal with.
As for me, obviously I’m a nonbeliever. But I’ve always found the wisdom of Rabbi Hillel to be intellectually appealing: “That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah. The rest is commentary.”
“In God we trust”? Sure….I’m OK with that. As to a great many mortals who claim to speak for Her….well, that’s another matter entirely.
God created grapes, and yeast. If you squeeze grapes and let the juice sit around unrefrigerated, it’ll turn into either wine or vinegar. Seems there’s a lot of stuff in the Bible about people drinking the former, but not much about drinking the latter.
Some people drink wine and spout nonsense. Others like Puddy manage to do so without the wine.
First checkmate…
There you go again… You moved the goal posts above attacking my religion and it’s basis for believing in a pure diet without stimulants and alcohol. In fact above your ABSOLUTELY ridiculed it.
It’s the FASCISTS like you checkmate who attack Adventists for being very conservative on our diet. We choose to live on vegetables and water and grape juice. A plant based diet with grape juice gives longevity. There is no need for wine. The chemical compounds are found in grape juice. Otherwise we’d die off just as fast as others. You get the same effects without the alcohol. Loma Linda proves it.
It really sux to move the goal posts like you do all the time because your arguments are specious checkmate. See ya!
Now rujaxoffallthetimestillprovingnuthinappears. Very apparent this moron doesn’t have anything except harpie and solipsism. The only two words in its vocabulary and there isn’t anything in any of its comments worth a Wabbit fart! Sad so sad. rujaxoffallthetimestillprovingnuthinappears never has anything to discuss without a copu and past from politicususa, daily kooks, media morons, huffpo or the putrid meme! The worst LIV on this blog!
Goldy,
As Puddy wrote above, it’s atheists that claim there are contradictions. Christ doesn’t contradict Himself. The cognitive dissonance is your belief in alcohol in 1 Timothy and rejection of Paul’s anti-homosexual relationships in Romans 1:24-30. That’s cognitive dissonance. Take one piece of Paul’s written scripture and claim “yes I believe that” and reject another piece of Paul’s written scripture and claim “nope, I don’t believe that”.
Seems you can’t come to the realization the Bible doesn’t contradict itself because God doesn’t contradict God!
Now onto worser,
How does one make cheese? What’s the process? What’s the chemistry behind it? How does cheese bind? Do you even know without looking it up?
Remember you brought it up!
Fish sauce is also created by fermenting dead fish. Yeah God created that? God didn’t create death worser. Death is a result of Satan taking over the earth through Adam’s sin, plain and simple! Good try.
Remember you brought it up!
Deep vegan Adventists don’t eat milk or egg products and that includes yogurts. And we outlive the American 10-14 years longer.
You see worser, when you are a progressive FASCIST with no facts you can spew horsesASS droppings all over the place and your side never challenges each other. That’s why Puddy is here to challenge morons like you!
Butt since you brought it up you can purchase non-fermented kimchi (Baechu Kimchi Gutjeri), soy (Eden Foods Organic or Blue Grass), yogurt (Fage), etc.
Stay stupid worser… your latest demonstration today is #1 in Puddy’s book!
Who has the FartyArt decoder ring today?
Bueller?
Bueller?
In the end when Christ returns every knee will bow and tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord!
As for cheese, most milk comes straight out of the animal warm enough and pre-innoculated with enough L. acidophilus to turn into cheese within a few hours without refrigeration and/or pasteurization. Of course depending on the style of cheese intended it’ll need a bit of help in the form of the right protease enzymes, etc. But otherwise you get yogurt within a few hours. Did the Judeo-Christian God intend it that way?
It just seems mean to me. If that’s really the orthodoxy. That you must not eat these fermented foods. And then to set the whole food system up so that pretty much every single tasty seasonal food product is pre-ordained to become fermented if you try to store it for any length of time. You can’t even make bread without making alcohol. Pinch off a bit of raw dough and pop it into your mouth and you’re damned for eternity? And it isn’t as if the peoples of the fertile crescent had a bunch of analytic chemists hanging around to help them out with these rules. They had no rational means at their disposal to understand why some liquids contained alcohol and some did not. So they resorted to superstition. That’s why to this day we retain the term “spirits”. They simply assumed these beverages were enchanted. Whether fermented foods are good or bad for your health one thing is for dang sure – fermented foods have been around forever and they are a natural part of the food chain.
You can’t even make bread without making alcohol.
Not true… There are unfermented fruit and sweet bread recipes out there. And… Matzo is fermented? Puddy is sure the Orthodox Jew would take issue with you!
Since you bring up fermentation, the alcohol is baked OUT of the bread within 15 minutes. Personally I like Challah bread. Otherwise little children would exhibit drunkenness upon bread eating. Butt then again libtards will make those Kahlua brownies or cupcakes and feed them to their children like the children eating their grandparents pot laced brownies in Colorado.
@45 Um, I don’t believe anything in the Bible. Just raising the contradictions as I see them. And again, my dispute was simply with you claiming that “wine” in the Bible means “grape juice.” It clearly does not. No qualms with you practicing your religion as if that’s what the Bible says, though.
@49 As for matzoh, the orthodox rabbinical rule is that the dough cannot sit for more than 18 minutes before baking? Why? Because otherwise, it starts to ferment and rise, making it leavened.
It is silly to describe natural biological processes as the results of machinations of evil supernatural beings.
Exactly. It is a CHOICE that as many have pointed out isn’t required by scripture. It is required by your particular sect’s intepretation of scripture. Remeber how this started. You were peddling the bullshit that in the bible Wine, at least whenever it apperas in the presence of Jesus, refers to unfermented grape juice. It flies against all reasonable understanding of history, bacterial spoilage, sacchromyses (I suspect we have a homebrewer in this thread) and common sense.
As such, I will continue to mock you and your sect for making shit up that is neither textual or reasonable. Perhaps your saviour by touching a wine vessel always made it virgin before consuming.
@46
Cheese is not alcoholic fermentation. Yes, I have made both beer and cheese. For many vegetarians, I assume you know this but then again, you’re deflecting using a crappy example of cheese so maybe not, cheese is a problem due to animal rennet. There are plenty of plant based rennet cheeses on the market but these are a very recent development. Rennet “ferments” in the sense of converting lactose into lactic acids. The process does not ferment alcohol but fermentation is not just about alcohol. Perhaps you’ve heard of Pecorino which is a traditional product of Sardinia and part of the logevity diet of the non-vegetarian, alcohol consuming diets of the blue zone there?
You also brought up Kimchi (similar to Sauerkraut) which relies on lactobacili for fermentation and lactobacili produces lactic acid. The result is a low PH-vinnegar-like brine that is not a hospitable enironment for alcohol producing saccromyces. While it is possible to make a very-low alcohol product (see Berliner Weisse) using only lactobacilli you really need to have the right strain of the bacteria and the right sugars for it to work. There’s a reason why there is no prohibition from eating sauerkraut or KimChi among Alcoholic recovery programs. The amount of alcohol arising from lactic fermentation is nothing without high levels of Maltose or Glucose which are not present in cabbage. I have a crock of home fermented sauerkraut in my fridge. I ferment lots of things that don’t involve alcohol. Coutner pickels are delicious in the early fall. They don’t keep more than a month without refrigeration but then four weeks would give a pretty nasty cucumber if you just left it on your counter.
Did you learn something about fermentation today?
Goldy sez,
Pffffffffft… Then how can you claim Paul was telling Timothy to use wine? You don’t believe Paul or Timothy are real. You don’t believe Paul wrote to Timothy!
So you claim to see contradictions in a book you don’t believe anything in? Forked tongue talk again! If you don’t believe in the Bible then there are no contradictions, PERIOD!
Since you don’t believe in the Bible then there is no dispute. How can you believe it’s wine? How can you argue either way when your original belief premise is flawed and false?
Again, how can you make that belief claim if you don’t believe anything about the book? Specious argument! You claim not to stake a claim hence there is no truth to your argument.
Puddy was told the 18 minute rule was only it was left alone, without someone touching it; kneading it. So what is it?
@50
18 minutes? We’re getting into territory of whether a pure vegan can eat since living organisms of bacteria and yeast are always killed in the process of digesting.
Burns’ “To A Mouse” must give vegans an ethical headache.
DAYUM checkmate…
Puddy didn’t bring up cheese in this argument… worser did. DAYUM you are a real idiot! Puddy knows about using calf rennet, that’s why Puddy asked worser does it understand how cheese is made! Did you think about Puddy’s response or did you knee jerk react like most HA DUMMOCRETINS here? Knee jerk react because you are a jerk!
Therefore you are just like the senile schismatic IDIOT Wabbit! You can’t follow a thread checkmate. You don’t pay attention to the details; hence you always checkmate yourself out of any discussion.
Checkmated again do to its own stoooooooooooopidity. The rest of your rant is worthless trash as always!
The Prosecution Rests Your Honor. Stoooooooooooooopid as a pile of rocks!
So pure vegan cooking using non-yeast flour is verboten checkmate? Flour and water make yeast? Really?
checkmated again!
Baking powder has yeast in it? Really? Then how can an open can of baking powder survive checkmate?
checkmated again!
Stoooooooooooooooopid as a pile of rocks. Wait… that’s ol what’s its name… Hmmm…? ruuuuuuusumtin!
As you use the term Puddybud, “believing” that someone named Paul, in an epistle attributed to him, told someone else named Timothy to use “wine” is one kind of belief. It’s a belief about a textual fact that anybody with a Bible handy can confirm by simply looking it up for themselves.
On the other hand believing that homosexuality is wrong, as various parts of the Bible contend, requires very different kinds of belief about the general authority and validity of the moral claims in the Bible.
To believe a textual fact I can look up (the Bible says homosexuality is wrong) does not create cognitive dissonance if I disbelieve, or am indeed horrified by, the moral claim itself (that homosexuality is wrong).
The cognitive dissonance you attribute to atheists is only an example of your own special pleading and/or logical confusion.
@53 Words are words. They mean something. I can read them and understand them without believing that they are the word of God, or that they are in any way historically accurate.
As for matzoh, it is 18 minutes from the time the water mixes with the flour until it is put in the oven. That is the rule. And it’s all about preventing the fermentation that would otherwise naturally occur.
Oh Piddles, you disappoint me.
Cultured yeast added to bread is a new phenomenon. The ancients didn’t know about it but they learned, probably by accident, that if you added water to flour then let it sit for a time it would make a fluffier end prduct that they found pleasant to eat.
There’s a reason why the reinheitsgebot, I can spell that withoug looking it up for I am a brewer, does not mention yeast. They didn’t know what yeast was in 1497. But by a lucky bit of nature and what was floating around in the air the right mashing of grains and cooking and then letting it sit the airborne saccharomyces of Bavaria could find a great place to repopulate themselves and make a pleasant alcholic beverage. (See also brettanomyces bruxellensis, no spell check!) Due to your religion you probably have never wondered why a beer made with essentially identical incredients in Bavaria tastes different from one made in Dortmund. In modern times it is because of the unique yeast strain innoculated into the process. Before van Leeuwenhoek and the late 1700’s early 1800’s the differences were caused by what microflora were floating around the region.
Pure veganism is a mental excercise. Can you be sure no field mice died in the cultivation of your vegetables? Do the occasional birds or farm cats find their way into a thresher? Is yeast or bacteria a living thing? If you wash living things off your vegetables have you not harmed those living things? If you eat an apple that has come in contact with air-borne yeast or bacteria after washing are you not eating a living thing? Is there really any such thing as a diet that is 100% non-exploitive of animals? (Reductio Ad Absurdum, it makes for a good joke once in a while.) These are stupid conversations you might have with friends over a pint or two. Schroedingers cat, did Paul die before Abbey Road, is Val Kilmer a better Batman than Michael Keaton…
Oh checkmate checkmate checkmate, who cares you are a brewer… Bragging?
No Puddy didn’t bring up kimchi… worser did!
Who cares about field mice? Are you putting some on teh barbie? Sure bacteria are living organisms… They infest your mind! You love splitting hairs for no good reason whatsoever. Hence your silly points are really silly!
Is there really any such thing as a diet that is 100% non-exploitive of animals? You need to ask those libtard progressives who occupy PCC and Whole Foods! Call your PETA buds. Some of them with the nose and lip rings.
Words are words and Puddy can believe them to be the same as you! So if they are not historically accurate as you claim then that wine is really grape juice.
As Jake wrote above… To believe that Paul is saying this is grape juice does not create cognitive dissonance if I disbelieve it’s alcoholic as you postulate!!!!!
Thanks for playing!
Except wine can be grape juice also. This is what Jesus served at the Last Supper before Judas betrayed him. Why would Paul suggest using grape juice unless Paul has some authority to Timothy!
Hence the rest of your argument around authority is proven by your first paragraph.
Thanks for playing!
@60
That’s funny. In the span of one day you’ve gone from acting superior with your vegetarina diet and assuming that I eat meat to assumeing that I love Peta which would imply that I don’t eat meat.
Yep, I’m bragging. I’m confident that I know more about the sciences of chemistry and microbiology than you have ever contmeplated. But while you were playing the expert on “grape juice” and fermentation you were counting on no one knowing anything about such things. It’s the only way your ignorant “authority” act works is if you keep to to topics on which no one else actually knows things.
@62
Oh really. So now your faith claims that Jesus took the grapes and squeezed them into the cup and drank saying, “Do this in memory of me” and NONE of the gospels makes mention of the fetching or crushing of said grapes? What version of the text makes you believe this to be true? Could it be “wine of the cluster” AKA grapes? Well then what need for a cup. Did you know fresh grape juice isn’t red? It only gets that way if you let it sit on the skins for a while, starting the fermentation process. Makes for a bed “this is my blood” metaphor if it’s slighly yellow and clear. And the ancients totally had amphoras of fresh grape juice kicking around so when 13 people popped by for a little snack they didn’t have to serve them that demon al-key-hol.
Back then, I’m told it was a good idea to drink wine with your water instead of straight pond or public fountain water because of the poor sanitation of the water. The alcohol in the wine made the water safer to drink. A little alcohol was preferable to a little cholera.
http://www.npr.org/2012/12/04/.....e-beverage
checkmate,
Puddy laughing at you! You meander all over the place. You have to because FACTS heur the libtard mind. So you need to find other tracks to travel down! Then when Puddy answers your meandering you accuse Puddy of meandering.
Who knows what Jesus did? He could have done the same thing He did at Cana of Galilee. He’s God and you just can’t comprehend that! Puddy does believe that Jesus was talking about His eminent death so why would he want His disciples drunk at that trying hour? Makes no sense whatsoever… Butt then again when do you make sense?
DAYUM you are sooooooooooooooo funny!
Regarding making moonshine, sauerkraut or what have you… momma’s uncle and aunt were Methodists. Aunt Mary made sauerkraut, pickles etc. all the time. Uncle William made shine, full distill and everything. Yeah, William and Mary, quaint isn’t it! Made all different types of alcohol. All types of berries to corn. Used a wood fired stove to start the process. Learned to can at 8 years old. Used to have a full set of the old heavyweight Mason jars not the cheap imitation ones used today! Gave them away to a great friend when we moved west.
Butt you keep thinking you know it all. Go for it. So yeah claim to be that authority on fermentation. Claim to know it all. That’s okay because DUMMOCRETINS like you need to stroke your egos on this blog. Puddy likes to use FACTS from DUMMOCRETIN sites to refute pukes like you! Also Puddy believes PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals!
Good day!
@66
So then you agree that your faith is not based on the text of your holy book but rather on how you assume it to be? Show my a textual justification for the wine of the last supper being grape juice. Otherwise you’re just pissing into the wind.
You can’t have it both ways. You’ve been spouting off for years on the notion of the Bible as the Holy Word of God but now you’re faced with something that isn’t in the text but is your belief.
All you’ve got is, well if you look at a few drukards in the OT and what happened to them and then you take this Jesus fellow who Piddles has also claimed erases all the uncomfortable bits of the OT then you have to assume that Jesus would not have had wine unlike everyone living in his time because of some OT passages and a letter from Paul…Jesus didn’t drink…I KNOW this to be true!
The only answer you have is a non-answer. “Who knows what Jesus did? He could have done the same thing He did at Cana of Galilee. He’s God and you just can’t comprehend that!” But, but, but your faith requires reading of the bible. The bible doesn’t say that Cana or the last supper was grape juice. That is a human interpretation. And of course, according to 7th Day Adventists, it was grape juice, not in the text, and all those other Christian faiths that intepret the word wine to mean….wine…those are not the true word of God. They are apostate. Only we, through our interpretation of wine as grape juice know the TRUE meaning of the Word! Praise Jesus!
High Snark Alert…
If Jesus is God, couldn’t he have just had as much alcohol as he wanted and healed himself of drunkenness. He was immortal after all. Great powers, son of God, able to heal the sick. Alcoholism is a sickness…
Right. If we go with some intepretations of the event this is a single cup of wine passed among 13 people. Have you met anyone who can be drunk on 1/13th of a glass of wine. Let’s just assume they all had their own glass of wine. Were the desciples like an 87 pound Morman girl who has her first glass of wine when she gets to her secular university and so gets kind of drunk? Were they all on rumspringa so having their first taste of the outside world? Or were they adult males living in an age where the drinking of wine was a common every day experience, safety of water, spoilage, all other questions addressed in above posts?
While Timothy and Paul are Christians they still had a foot in Judaism. They were figuring out what Christianity was without Christ around as a guide. It appears there were some differences of opinion. One difference is whether Mary Magdalene was a disciple. Some argue she was the wife of Jesus. The bible doesn’t give a direct answer to these questions. Still the first person to enter the empty tomb is Mary, which suggests a relationship with Jesus perhaps an intimate one.
If one wants purity then one should only eat fruit. YOu can squeeze fruit and get the juice and then store it. If you store it it only makes sense to make wine, which you will likely have in a few days anyway.
I cannot believe that alcohol is brought to us by Satan though the Greeks had a god of wine and he looks lot like a Satyr. I rather reject all this because in the right conditions alcohol will occur in the fruit while on the tree or vine.. Birds and animals (including humans_ eat enough of the fruit get drunk. Watching these drunk animals and birds can be fun, but no evil or Satan was involved, just the world as it is, and the critters get a treat. Wonder if bears have hangovers afterwards….best not to find out.
Dietary restrictions exist worldwide. Many are religious based, but not always. Some make some sense where they exist. Some like the Jewish restriction on pork and shellfish are more of a huh or we can only guess at the reason. If Americans had a prohibition on tea we would know why, although we are a nation of coffee drinkers while England is a nation of tea drinkers. I’m not sure which Canadians drink more of. (Quiet you Beer is not one of the choices.) While some of these dietary restrictions sometimes have health benefits that usually isn’t the reason for the restriction and is at best a happy circumstance. The Vikings really should not have tried raisin cattle for meat and dairy in Greenland and Vinland, but they had a dietary restriction on fish. Things did not go well for them.
What babbling…
Puddy already discussed this above checkmate. God created PURITY. Is alcohol purity? NO!
Since libtards understand movies as their reference point… As Darth Vader said… “There is no conflict”! Puddy not having it but one way! Christ is NOT going to feed them alcoholic wine when Christ needs their attention! The Bible is the Holy Word of God. God created the good. Satan polluted it and you eat and drink it up!
The rest of the post is worthless hogwash as always!
Regarding fruit decaying on the vine… In God’s perfect world nothing decayed until Adam and Eve sinned. Everything was pure and perfect!
So your argument falls flat on it’s face!
blah blah blah, something about Satan…blah blah blah.
In the end the fundamentalist has nothing left to stand on except interpretation of the Old Testament and can’t even comprehend the gobbledygook he spews.
Philosophical question, Is God omniscient? Is God all encompassing? Is God the creator of all?
The fundamentalists says, “But of course, without God there is nothing.”
Cool, So he created this pure world and put his flawed creatures (hmmmm pure?) capable of free will into it. Either God is Omniscient and knew that Eve would stray or he had no idea that he put the possibility of sin into play, therefore NOT omniscient. And whence came Satan if not from God, the source of all things? How did that impurity get into the new creation if not allowed by God? All was good and pure but the all-knowing did not see Satan entering his creation so he is NOT all-powerful. Or was it intentional to allow rot in the form of the serpent to enter purity? If God is omniscient and knew in advance Eve would stray, did God not plan ahead for the consequences? Is not the impure world God’s creation as well? Are not the very natural byproducts of the tiniest of God’s creation, yeast and bacteria, part of God’s creation?
Wait, the serpent/sin/satan is craftier than any OTHER beast God made? So God made the serpent yet this pre-eating of the fruit world was perfect and pure? The Rot of the serpent had not yet entered purity so the serpent did or did not exist?
The text (perfect infallible word of God, we’ve covered that) says clearly that God created the serpent so the trick of the serpent tempting Eve was pure. There was no impure at this point. All was pure and good in that world until the moment Adam and Eve sinned. You said so yourself. So the evil that was the serpent was pure for every moment in creation up until Adam and Eve sinned. And here we’ve been blaming the serpent/satan all this time. Dude got framed. HE WAS PURE!
“No, no, no no….God is perfect and my sect’s understanding of the Bible explains it all because I say so. I do not need to think through the contradictions and inconsistencies because God is real and perfect and never would have made anything unpure.” Piddles, or words to that effect.
Just as an exercise in testing the limits of food principles, I’m wondering if the allowance for dairy by most of the SDAs I’ve known contemplates in full how modern fluid dairy milk is produced? I guess the same would apply to any lacto-vegetarians who avoid flesh out of a moral objection to killing.
Do you guys know where milk comes from? Do you know what it takes to make a dairy cow give milk? They’re mammals. And like all mammals, in order to produce milk they must first be made pregnant. About once a year in the case of the modern dairy cow. What exactly do you suppose happens to those calves?
The simple fact is that the only way to produce dairy milk from cows is to produce veal. If you consume milk or any dairy product produced from milk, then you are producing veal, even if you don’t consume the veal. You simply can’t have one without the other. And you have to accept responsibility for the production of the veal if you demand the production of the dairy products. You might be able to make cheese from GMO rennet, microbial rennet or even fucking thistles (and by the way, at least for aged cheeses, animal rennet is the only way to go). But you still can’t make cheese without milk. And that means veal. Dead baby cows.
Milk = Veal.
Even dicks like a little wine now and then.