I know the timing is a bit insensitive, and it will probably piss off some folks for me to go there right now, but dwelling on the tragic mass shooting today at Fort Hood, in which 12 have been killed and 31 injured, I couldn’t help but think about the debate that raged in the comment threads here and elsewhere after the Virginia Tech shootings.
There was an argument at the time, strongly made by gun rights advocates, that the death toll at Virginia Tech could have been dramatically lessened, or even averted, had faculty and students been likewise armed. Virginia Tech, like many schools, was a gun-free zone, and that, gun control critics argued, made the shooter’s defenseless victims less safe.
Fort Hood, on the other hand, is most definitely not a gun free zone. In fact, I’m pretty sure that military bases are filled with men and women who carry arms, and are highly trained in the skills to use them.
And yet… 12 dead, 31 injured before the shooter was finally taken down.
I’m not saying that the Fort Hood and Virginia Tech tragedies make an argument one way or another for gun free zones. Rather, I’m saying the exact opposite.
While I agree that the whole “if only we all packed heat” argument is stupid this incident isn’t really proof. Maybe things have changed (9/11 changed everything, yo) but even on base people don’t stroll around packing heat everywhere. The guns are usually locked up…
Goldy you ignorant fuck.
Military bases have armories where small arms are kept unless in active use. NOBODY but the MPs are actually armed day to day. The health clinic and theater where the shooting took place, would NOT have anyone carrying small arms.
The option to carry a self defense weapon does not rest with the individual in the Army, especially at a US base. If you tried, you would have a one-way discussion with your sergeant or commanding officer.
Trying to make political points after a tragedy like this is sickening. Go fuck yourself.
I guess that’s a lesson the alleged perpetrator didn’t learn, since he went to school at Virginia Tech…
How many concealed-carry permits do we have in this state? All I know is, for someone to be shot there has to be a gun around — avoid places with guns (like Army bases or police) and you’re less likely to be shot.
They reported on Fox News that the people who were taking the bullets were not armed for politically correct puposes so this tragedy is another result of failed liberal pussified fucking bullshit. Why dont you cocksuckers go ruin some other country.
OK, 2 has it right in the first paragraph. Partially right in the second.
And in the third, well, he just shit all over himself.
@2
thats true…and goldstein, like all jews, thinks that if the common man is unarmed, they’ll be safe. goldstein you fucking jew bastatd kike.
Mark at 4,
There is a reason soldiers don’t carry weapons on a military base on our own soil. SAFETY. They have armed MP’s and guards just like outside the gates. This incident is no different than when the guy shot up Luby’s 10 years ago or the McDonald’s in San Diego even more years ago.
Liberal has nothing to with whether weapons are carried on a base. For you make such an assertion is asinine and just plain ignorant.
The clue for you should have been “The reported on Fox News (the mother of all oxymoron’s)…. Dumbass!!!
Oh he is at it again at 6.
manoflies, I am Jewish, I have weapons. I believe strongly in the right to own them.
I would like to invite you for a beer. My treat. Lets see if you have the spine to spew your hate to my face.
My guess is not. Cowardice is easy to spot. Always has a huge mouth that overloads it’s ass.
Personal note to David:
manoftruth, IMHO, should be banned. This kind of vileness is uncalled for and you have given him a forum long enough. I find it offensive, vulgar and incendiary.
There is no place for his words, or him, here or anywhere else where reasonable people gather.
There are plenty of websites where he can go express himself and be hailed a hero. Let him go.
@4
Why dont you cocksuckers go ruin some other country.
they have. they’ve ruined every country in history. as joseph p kennedy said, “they ruin everything they touch”.
7 Just like the Marine barracks in Lebanon, the guards at the gate with no bullets. Liberal politically correct bullshit. You are the ignorant one.
11
Mark, I am expert on the subject. The MP’s and other base security carry LOADED weapons. I would love for you to cite your source that says they don’t.
In the military, there is no liberal or conservative. While politics may play a role in military actions, it does play a role in day to day security or operations. You follow orders. Might want to read up on military history.
For you to even think that after 9/11 the MP’s would be unarmed proves just what douche you are.
Not that we needed any further proof.
Ooh, ooh, some random spewbot on the internet hates me!
“This incident is no different than when the guy shot up Luby’s 10 years ago or the McDonald’s in San Diego even more years ago.” When’s the last time you had to show ID to get into a McDonald’s? Is Ronald McDonald packing? Is there a history of McDonald’s clerks killing their wives and themselves when they get back from Hamburger U?
Wait till the knee-jerks here hear the alleged perpetrator had a muslim name. They’re already going apeshit at RedState, FreeRepublic (guess space between words are anti-American), etc.
Is Goldy always this retarded on thursday or is he just making an exception tonight.
#1, Goldy doesn’t know a fucking thing about military bases.
#2, Goldy appears to be ignorant of how 12 people can die when a gunman enters 2 adjacent building teeming with people with 2 weapons and ample targets.
#3, Goldy appears to think many on bases carry firearms as frequently as some do in other civilian areas such as cities. This is ignorant thinking.
#4, The fact is, most military bases are extremely safe as a your fellow soldier and his family are your neighbors. Therefore, you trust that most on the installation are like you and not the sack of shit in the Central District that killed a cop Saturday night.
So in sum, stick to what you DO know Goldy , which isn’t much, and don’t speak about shit you don’t know about, like what does or doesn’t happen in the day to day operation of a military facility.
Good to see you back.
Who are these reasonable people you speak of?
@9
manoftruth, IMHO, should be banned. This kind of vileness is uncalled for and you have given him a forum long enough. I find it offensive, vulgar and incendiary.
if i start calling the tea partiers rednecks can i stay?
“Cowardice is easy to spot. Always has a huge mouth that overloads it’s ass.”
That is classic right there.. Nicely done.
Based on how fast they (base personel) responded to an active shooting on premise, I think some kudos to those responding is in order. I also wonder how many of those who died, did so protecting others…wouldn’t suprise me in the least if that is the case.
@11 the POTUS was Reagan when the Marines died in Lebanon. It was the ROE’s placed on the Marines that in all likely hood allowed that attack to succeeed. Those ROE’s were also from the Reagan Admin…..
Got to be consistent…
@16
No, but if you call them Jews you might get points for even-handedness. Even if you had to gnaw them off afterwards.
16:
Redneck is not the same a Kike, Jew Bastard.
And you know it.
PS. I live in Texas with some rednecks who call themselves, proudly, redneck.
In my 52 years I have never heard a Jew self describe as a Kike, Jew Bastard or Dirty Jew.
You know what you spout is out of line and you should give it up.
Marvin, I still like to think that most who gather here are semi-reasonable. Sometimes they just get a bit over excited about their position.
Pathetic Goldy. @2 is correct, and you have just made a gigantic-fucking-ass of yourself yet again.
Wow… feel the love.
Let’s reiterate… I said, unlike Virginia Tech, Fort Hood is not a gun free zone. It is not. I said there are people there who carry arms and are trained to use them. There are. I never implied that everybody walks around armed.
But most importantly, I said that neither the tragedy there, nor at VA Tech, make an argument for or against gun free zones. That was my point, and that alone.
But, you know, get as angry as you want folks, if that’s what makes you feel better.
4. mark spews:
They reported on Fox News that the people who were taking the bullets were not armed for politically correct puposes so this tragedy is another result of failed liberal pussified fucking bullshit. Why dont you cocksuckers go ruin some other country.
Didn’t you read Delbert’s comment at #2? “Trying to make political points after a tragedy like this is sickening. Go fuck yourself.”
Well, go ahead, Dum Dum.
re 11: The Marine tragedy happened under Reagan’s watch. If you want to call him ‘pussified’, you’ll get no argument from me.
Excuses @ 21. If you can’t see how you can have 12 dead, 31 wounded when 2 adjacent buildings teeming with unarmed people are fired upon by a motivated assailant firing randomly with 2 loaded weapons, you live in an alternate universe to reality. Just sayin’
@13
He must’ve meant it was a case of “I don’t like Thursdays”.
and besides, to write a post titled “guns make you safe” two hours after 12 soldiers die is a fucking sick mind.
i see goldy hovering over a pool filled with his three precog commenters as the precrime era is ushered in. precrime works. and as a bonus, smith wesson luger, et al can still make billions for the “economy.”
what i meant to say is that is worse than calling people names.
If as is claimed, that guns on a military base are locked up, where did the guns come from that were used today?
In my vision of a military base, the entire compound is fenced off, locked down and patrolled 24/7. All people and vehicles entering/leaving the facility are searched. Nope. Just in the past year here at Ft Lewis, we’ve had a murder-suicide, on base. We’ve got meth heads cooking crack in the woods, on base. We’ve got soldiers smuggling in drugs and 14 year old girls, on base.
Aren’t you righties concerned that if it’s this easy to smuggle shit into the base, that it’s only a matter of time that something like this happens? But hey no, curse Goldy because scoring points makes you feel so good.
Actually, soldiers do not run around military bases carrying firearms. Only the MP’s are allowed to carry firearms on bases that are not in designated hostile areas. There are very strict rules about guns on base, such as they must be checked at the gate when you are coming and going with them, say for purposes such as hunting.
So you guys are saying military bases are less safe than they’re supposed to be because of these lousy Brady anti-gun laws? Damn, I could accept Brady and Reagan getting assassinated, if it meant our soldiers were safe. Why do we allow frigging liberals to control our guns, if it means the military aren’t allowed to carry them.
@29
meth, sex with 14 year old girls? sounds more like hollywood or palm beach than an army base.
@29
To answer your question, the guns were likely the shooter’s personal weapons. Cars are not searched, nor even stopped, if they have a base window sticker. Contraband on army bases has been going on since swords were bronze.
To your last point, Goldy chose to post his inane drivel on this topic, I merely condemned him for being such a stupid fuck to do so.
@4 Given that military service is a big deal to your conservative brethren, if I were you I wouldn’t make it so obvious that you’re an NS.*
* Never served.
#11 is Classic Wingnut: Didn’t do his research and embarrassed himself by knocking Reagan as “liberal” and “politically correct” — who knew?!! LMFAO at you, mark!
@30 That’s not exactly correct. Many military bases have firing ranges and train soldiers in the use of weapons. It’s true these areas are well away from the populated portions of the base, but the soldiers will have weapons in their possession transiting between company areas and the ranges. Ammo is not distributed until they get to the range, though.
re 24: On Gunsmoke, you had to check in your gun(s) at the Dodge city limits. There’s a reason why civilized people don’t all go around with guns strapped to their belts.
Let’s arm 6 year olds so they can shoot child molesters. How will we know they were child molesters? Because the 6 year old shot them.
Wow wingnuts I bet you feel better taking out your frustrations on Goldy by name-calling.
All over having your asses handed to you last Tuesday.
Damn it sucks to be a right winger!
Hi Goldy.
Yes, your timing is insensitive.
This isn’t about guns.
This incident is about mental health.
This guy was telegraphing his intentions for at least 6 months. Nothing was done to avert this disaster. Redeploying him to Iraq was clearly the trigger event.
Post Columbine, the FBI profilers studied this kind of behavior. It can now be detected early and mitigated. This incident was preventable.
And yet, it can argued that our society has not improved at preventing these tragedies, but instead has increased their likelihood.
Sad.
Roger Rabbit @ 36
Ammo is not distributed until they get to the range, though.
That is one of the MOST important points. You will see lots of soldiers on a military base parading around with weapons — especially in training situations.
The weapons are certainly kept under controls, and checked in and checked out of the armory sections. But — unless you happen to be in a hostile or combat area — the weapons are almost certainly UNLOADED. (With the obviously exception of MP’s and some soldiers on guard duty.)
Live ammunition, on the other hand, is very tightly controlled. They usually hand it out only at firing ranges, and make sure that unused ammunition doesn’t leave those areas.
I did basic training 23 years ago, and served in the Army reserve for 7 years. Never once did I carry a weapon with LIVE ammunition anywhere outside of a firing range situation.
Just about every mass murderer is a “law abiding gun owner”.
Until they lose their minds.
And -ironically- it seems like gun ownership seems to go hand-in-hand with people whoget paranoid and lose their minds
Yet more proof that right wing moonbattery can outpace left-wing moonbattery any day of the week.
Jason@39: you raise a good point. Guv’mint can drop the ball and ignore obvious, looming problems.
Especially when gun nuts and racist taunting is present.
Dori Monson was desperate to portray this as a terrorist attack carried out by Muslim extremists. Irony
medal of the year: it’s his form of reflexive fear-mongering which CAUSED 12 people to lose their lives today.
Racist taunting is a key component in right wing politics. Every once in a while, that taunting causes unbalanced people to do unspeakable things.
Of course, Dori and his cult-like followers would never acknowledge this reality.
@4;
If Fox news reported that they weren’t armed for politically correct purposes, then why do you bother watching it? They weren’t armed because of military protocol that has been in effect since before the civil rights amendment.
The NRA and its allies in the big gun lobby have blood on their hands again.
Goldy is right about this.
The gun loons are fed by gun makers who lobby to sell more guns. Sensible laws to reduce gun violence are drown in the noise of gun nuts who don’t mind using them. (The tenor of the gun nuts makes you wonder whether we’re safe if these people have guns.)
A gun didn’t help a fine Seattle police officer the other night who was shot by someone the gun lobby now defends.
There was a shooting like this one back in the mid 90’s at Fairchild AFB outside of Spokane. In that case the shooter was a mentally ill vet who should have never been able to get near a gun. The shooter was shot by an MP.
There is little anyone can do about an armed lunatic who is intent on murdering the innocent.
It’s probably an unpopular thing to say right now considering the innocent police officer who was assassinated, but I don’t recall the police department rending their garments when two of their own chased down an innocent young man who they shouted at without him being able to see them and then slammed him so forcefully into a wall that he is still in a coma.
The Seattle police assessed what they had done and found that it was OK to do that to a citizen.
I’m not saying it’s right, but this is the kind of blowback you get when you allow cops to murder people.
@2. delbert calls Goldy an ignorant fuck for claiming there are guns miitary vases. FWIW the Major used his own, not Unce’s guns!
Lets ban non US weapons from military bases!
@4 Mark
were they armed foir incorrect purposes?
@6. manoftruth
@14 ESO #4, a ” sack of shit killed the cop Saturday night.”
@40 Even in Vietnam, we were required to unload and clear weapons before entering base areas.
@47 POWs (privately owned weapons) are a delicate subject in combat zones. Officially, you’re not supposed to have them. Realistically, soldiers in combat zones want the best weapons to protect their lives, and that isn’t always the government-issue stuff.
I went through two M-16s in Vietnam, and neither one of them could fire two complete magazines before jamming. I preferred to carry a 12-gauge (and a couple of frags) for my work guarding truck drivers on unsecure roads. The shotgun wasn’t a military-issued weapon and the frags weren’t recorded in the unit logbooks. Let’s just say someone gave them to me. In war, a lot of the normal rules get suspended.
Wow, this wasn’t some newly enlisted grunt, the shooter was a major. WTF???
@2 congratulations. couldn’t have said it better myself.
i love the last paragraph of this post. what the fuck does that even mean? its like “im not trying to make a statement here. i’m doing the opposite!”
Sadly ’39’ is correct, it’s all about our lack of concern for mental health issues and how this person was allowed to go over the edge.
But if you want to talk guns –
None of this “Jew versus Muslim” shit is going to stop until we get out of the fight. That means closing down the shows in Afghanistan and Iraq and withdrawing from the Middle East. Israel can fend for itself, as can the Palestinians.
The fight between Muslims and Jews is not any of the US’s business any more than it’s the business of New Zealand or Chad. Leave these two religions to their insanity.
HEY FUCK WAD
You know jack shit about what it’s like to be in the Army and what it’s like on an Army base.
You simply take yet another opportunity to spew your idiotic notion that if we eliminate guns peace will reign supreme.
Get a clue numb nuts, if we ban guns, criminals will STILL have them and those who need to defend themselves WON’T.
HELLO McFLY! The Police come AFTER the bad guys shoots you.
@21 Goldy
Good clarification. You probably should have been more explicit on that point upfront.
I agree in principle with what you are saying.
Technically speaking I am not sure we have many scenarios that prove or disprove the case that a crowd of people completely armed is more or less safe statistically. I think it is intuitive that more guns in more people’s hands might lead to more random incidents of gun violence.
But the V Tech and Fort Hood (and many other examples) are a very specific phenomenon. The mass killing spree. That is something that society will have a very hard time controlling. Because with enough intent, means and opportunity it is virtually impossible to stop.
I do think though take a scenario where someone walks into a shopping mall, or wherever, and goes on a killing spree. If everybody in the mall was equally armed the spree killer is just not going to get very far. Certainly not more than few people. Before someone in the crowd takes the killer out. Of course I don’t believe this justifies the risk of confused chaos that might ensue where innocents are shot because they are believed to be the original killer. And moreover, the rate of random incidents of killing one or two people is likely to increase if the entire general population walks around armed 24×7.
But the spree killer presents a peculiar problem to society. Do people remember Brenda Ann Spencer, the California teen in the late 70s who started sniping grade schoolers from her window because she “didn’t like mondays”. Talk about violent ennui. She was given the rifle by her father.
Those idiots on Fox news would do well to spend a little time on a military base and actually see how much more freedonm they have outside the perimeter. I have done plenty of time as a civilian and know you do not fuck around on base. No speeding and no guns unless they are transported within the parameters thay dictate. Military bases have some of the youngest and most eager police forces. I know a guy that was being a dick and ended up on the ground with a few 19 year olds holding M-16s to his back. He deserved it.