Anybody looking for excitement in Olympia today better hope for some kind of street fight between Gregoire and Rossi supporters… because you’re not going to get any drama from the Legislature. Sure, Republicans might follow through on their childish threat to walk out of the joint session, but any chance they had of blocking certification of Christine Gregoire’s election vanished when the slim Democratic majority in the Senate held firm during a procedural vote yesterday.
With that out of the way, the final certification of the election results will fall to a joint session of the Legislature, where a more solid advantage in the House gives Democrats a comfortable majority. Gregoire will be certified on Tuesday, and sworn in on Wednesday… regardless of how much money the BIAW spends on paid media.
Good thing too, because we choose our governor based on who wins the election the first Tuesday in November, not on who wins the PR battle afterwards. This is not a parliamentary system where governments are toppled on losing a vote of confidence — if Rossi wants a new election, he’s welcome to it… in 2008.
So it’s onto the courts — the proper forum for contesting an election — where I expect Rossi’s BIAW attorneys will be less persuasive then his BIAW financed media campaign. For while the court of public opinion might be moved by unsupported rumor and innuendo, a court of law is inconveniently rigid about obscure technicalities like “facts” and “evidence.”
Rossi has spent weeks shamelessly accusing Gregoire, the Democrats and King County Elections officials, of “fraud,” “corruption” and “conspiracy,” but his attorneys — constrained by reality — have now translated these charges into “neglect,” “errors” and “omissions.” This sudden shift in word choice cannot simply be dismissed as a legal expediency… it is an admission that they never had the evidence to back up these baseless charges in the first place.
For this, Dino Rossi owes the public an explanation. And he owes Christine Gregoire an apology.
see the Times today: Lawsuit says I-747 violates state constitution
Finally, somebody with the guts to start tearing that one down in court.
Election Contest : First Hearing 1/14/2004 in Chelan County
Expect:
1) Democrats to intervene as a party to the action (yes, Vance didn’t sue them and they they are affected)
2) Rossi will ask for an expedited discovery schedule (That’s right, despite all of the nutty anonymous posts at unSound, Rossi and Vance are still on a fishing expedition and are looking for any evidence to back up their generalized accusations in the complaint to set the election aside. If they had enough now, they wouldn’t need any discovery).
3) The issue of what county the contest will be held (Venue) may be litigated(Vance choose the most favorable county possible for him vote wise. Plus, Wenatachee is 149 miles away from Seattle where the witnesses are). Democrats will try to move the election to another county.(My prediction. If they don’t they should.)
4) There may be the preliminary issue of whether the legislature or the courts decide the contest. (I believe it should be in the courts, but some have suggested the legislature may be required to conduct the contest – an idea I do not support). The Washington State Supreme court may likely need to be involved in this issue as it sets the entire process.
5) There will be a full trial in the contest. There will be discovery by both sides, witnesses presented and some sort of hearing by the trial court. The trial court will then make a decision in the matter either setting aside the election or throwing it out.
6) There will be a final State Supreme Court Decision. Either way the Washington State Supreme Court will make the final decision. Whether there will ever me a federal claim is out there and may be yet a further later desperate move by Rossi if he continues on his losing streak.
7) Look for the BIAW to try to get involved. (This is the only special interest group that tried to get involved last time before the State Supreme Court and submited an amicus curie brief to the court. On this round, I would not be surprised if other groups tried to submit briefs as well.
I’, so depressed by your spin Erik….NOTTTTTT!
The last Supreme Court decision was only about whether or not to count some 700 balots in King Co. Lefty’s are so desperate they want us to believe the contest case has already been tried!
Bad try…No sale!
Expedited discovery schedule is because Rossi doesn’t want this to linger longer than necessary. Erik twists this to mean Rossi doesn’t have enough proof???????
And Goldy, words like “fraud & conspiracy” were your words and the words of your ilk…..you really did think that if you said them loud enough and long enough you could put them in the mouths of others.
BAD TRY GOLDY…NO SALE!
Apologize to Gregoire–Yeah, right!
I’m glad Goldy and Erik are convinced there was absolutely no fraud in this election and that this was the fairest race in the history of mankind (oops forgot I’m on the site that requires political correctness) and WOMANKIND,,,,and DEADKIND, FELONKIND, DOUBLE PERSONALITY AND VOTER REG-KIND etc. etc.
I’m glad Goldy and Erik continue to try & convince us that running provisional ballots directly thru a machine without validating the signatures is a sign of excellence as is not following the rules on enhancing ballots. Oh and 1217 additional ballots with no problem..don’t worry, be happy.
You 2 dorks are spinning so fast, you can smell your own asses!!!!!
GREAT NEWS!!
Read the Seattle Times today…there are now 1800+ more ballots than voters. Another ooops by KingCO. Bill Huennekens looks like a real pinhead in that picture…definitely looks like a computer geek…but his work product shows serious deficiencies.
And KingCo even gives credit to the Dems for pointing out this error. Who’s on first? No who’s on second, What’s on first?
LOGAN & HUENNEKENS====Abbott & Costello.
I watched the proceedings on TV.
The law and constitution was upheld. Hooray for Washington State!
I did like one senator’s reminder that 1) Rossi et. al. sued to stop counting legal votes but now claims all legal votes haven’t been counted and 2) how her overseas child got a ballot in early December but took the responsibility to make sure it got returned and counted (wasn’t voter responsibility Dino’s original claim?”
The courts will rule. Until then, the leglislature has done its job admirally — with plenty of partisan shots from the right during the process (as you would expect from the losing side.)
I just love the depth of Cynical’s argument. Every time Goldy (or someone like Erik) pokes deep holes, he throws back the same old tired lines about “errors” or the Republicans “not showing their hand”. He knows his argument is weak, and now he’s so desparate that he’s resorted to calling people dorks and pinheads. Again – the Republicans are never able to come up with evidence that supports any kind of legal argument, so their supporters are stuck with ad hominem attacks, innuendo and speculation (What if? What if!?!). Remember it’s the Republicans in this debate who have used the tsunami and Robert Mugabe to try and make their point.
Erik is exactly right when he points out that Republicans still are fishing for information. They’ve got nothing that will stand up in court. It’s easy to convince someone like Cynical, who isn’t constrained by “facts” or “evidence”. Not so easy to convince a judge.
Well, if you vote for dead people – what’s that? FRAUD
If you vote more than once – what’s that? FRAUD
If you put white-out on ballots – what’s that? FRAUD
I’m just getting warmed up this morning.
Are we still in denial this morning?!?
Cynical… that type of reality distortion may work over on (u)SP, but you’re smoking crack if you think it flies over here. Everybody here knows what I’ve been saying, and they know what the aluminum hat boys have been saying, and they know what Rossi/Vance/BIAW has been saying.
Your side has continually accused our side of fraud and corruption and trying to “steal” the election. And now if all we have are honest mistakes, I think we deserve an apology.
(I’m waiting….)
It’s amazing how angry some people get when you point out the obvious … All of this bluster makes for amusing nightly newscasts, and certainly it has swayed some of those who don’t have the time to look into things for themselves, but the bottom line is this process has followed the law, and will continue to do so. When GOP attorneys have to get in front of a judge and prove their allegations, all the bluster falls away … prove the case if you are able – that is the law – but the hyperbole only serves to amuse in the best case and damage government credibility in the worst.
From Cynical: “Lefty’s are so desperate…blah blah blah…”
We are? By tomorrow we’ll have a sitting governor, and you’ll have a further self-destructing whiner.
Well said bj, if the repugnicans cannot win fairly all they do is compalin about the system and whine day and nite. Some day they will realize that they are not the center of the unversre nor do they matter much in the reality of life.
Hi jim p –
I wouldn’t say they don’t matter in life…just not in Olympia.
the fact that none of you have a problem with 1800 votes being cast with no associated voter speaks volumes about you and your position. This fact alone I beleive is grounds for a court to rule in favor of the repulicans and I think you all know it. That is why you are so concerned with the court action. You all say the R’s don;t have a case, are fighting a losing battle….B.S. You are scared. If Dino ahd won the third count and there were 1800 mystery votes you guys would be screaming, but the only thing you will say about them now is, “the numbers aren’t supposed to reconcile, no one ecpects them to match, blah blah blah”. If the roles were reversed you sure as hell would expect them to reconcile, you would demand it. So stop pretending you are better then the R”s, you look ridiculous doing so. Honesty People – HONESTY. You all know the election was mishandled and the numbers don’t jive and the right thing for the party that trails to do is demand so answers. You would and they are.
the fact that none of you have a problem with 1800 votes being cast with no associated voter speaks volumes about you and your position.
You guys keep jumping the gun and presenting “smoking guns” that turn out to shoot blanks, so forgive us if we don’t “take your word for it” when you say something is a “fact”.
Despite your repeated accusations, the county auditors have made it clear that the two lists weren’t/aren’t designed to reconcile. It’s exactly like saying your checkbook and the bank statement don’t balance, so it must mean there’s money missing. And Unlike you, the BIAW and the other wing-nuts, the county auditors and SOS have a good track record of being honest about what is/isn’t supposed to happen, and how the system actually works. I’ll take their word over yours any day.
Remember – just because Republicans keep claiming that’s evidence, doesn’t mean it is. In fact, if Republicans in WA State claim it’s evidence, you can be 90% sure it’s not (given their track record of the past 6-8 weeks).
I’m pretty ready to say the Republicans have “jumped the shark” on this election back when they were throwing out accusations of conspiracy, fraud and corruption. It’s only been downhill for them since then. Sure, the wing-nuts will get some extra mileage out of this “stolen” election like they still get mileage out of Hillary bashing, but if they insist on focusing on that as a major campaign issue, it only means another 24 years of Democratic dominance in the Governor’s mansion.
Again – the Republicans are never able to come up with evidence that supports any kind of legal argument, so their supporters are stuck with ad hominem
That’s true. Otherwise, they would not be asking for extensive discovery in their contest lawsuit. If they had enough, they could simply seek to overturn the election on a motion before the court.
see the Times today: Lawsuit says I-747 violates state constitution
Finally, somebody with the guts to start tearing that one down in court.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We dont need the likes of you on this democracy, if you dont want to abide to the will of the people then you can leave.
And now if all we have are honest mistakes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
People voting twice? Dead people voting? These are HONEST mistaked? Godamn Goldy, if I ever commit a major crime I want 12 of you on my jury!
It’s exactly like saying your checkbook and the bank statement don’t balance, so it must mean there’s money missing.
If your check book and bank statement don’t reconcile, you look into why! If you show having $1800.00 more then the bank syas you have you sure as hell don’t just adjust $1800.00 out of your check register and go on your merry way. You find out why and make the bank explain where they say it went. And in this case, the bank is showing you have $1800.00 more in your account that you can’t account for. Do you take it quietly in the night and hope the never notice? Well we noticed. Just like your chacking account, this vote must reconcile, we aren’t going to just make an “Adjustment” in our balance without knowing why.
Will the mob rule?
Today at 12:00 noon outgoing Gary Locke will give his last speech.
We will learn whether the rule of law prevails and there is a smooth transition of power with a subsequent election contest or the orange mob will have seized power by force.
It’s exactly like saying your checkbook and the bank statement don’t balance, so it must mean there’s money missing. – jcricket
So, if your bank sends you a statement that says you have less money than your checkbook, you just say, “oh, well” and make an adjusting entry in your checkbook without ANY attempt to reconcile? Would you still just take the bank’s word for it if you had lost a pack of your blank checks and money showed up missing? That is what we’re talking about — 1,800 ballots (KC’s numbers) that cannot be accounted for. And it isn’t like they didn’t know this would happen. A MetroKC report from earlier this year warned of it.
Ooops. I was wrong. Reed has just given and filed the certified results showing who won.
Republicans are taking up the orange mob cause trying to thwart Gregoire from taking office for the next two weeks.
Debate is set for 1 hour. Locke is scheduled to speak at 1:00 p.m.
Live now on King 5 news site.
And Goldy, words like “fraud & conspiracy” were your words and the words of your ilk…..you really did think that if you said them loud enough and long enough you could put them in the mouths of others.
To refresh Cynical’s memory, here are some choice quotes from Chairman Vance:
“People ask me what would fraud look like? It would look like this,” said state Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance. – AP
“All we have to do is show [there] has been fraud or error or neglect to the degree that you can’t know who won this election,” Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance said. – Seattle Times
State party Chairman Chris Vance: “It’s either gross incompetence or vote fraud.” Tuesday, he upped that to: “There is no way to tell if they are colossally incompetent or totally corrupt.” – Bremerton Sun
State Republican Chairman Chris Vance warned Friday night that the possibility of fraud exists as King County prepares to recount ballots in the race between Christine Gregoire and Dino Rossi. – KOMO News
Sure, you look into the facts between your checkbook and your bank statement. But, to extend the analogy, Republicans are proceding as if their checkbook or what one teller says are “gospel truth”. It’s not the bank’s responsibility to make your checkbook and your bank statement reconcile. It’s possible they never will, especially if you’re not using them in the same way (like not writing down ATM withdrawals in your checkbook).
But the analogy isn’t perfect. Voting isn’t (yet) like a bank. There are errors in every election (Republicans know this and the law accounts for this), and no election is thrown out because of the presence of errors.
To top it off, every time a Republican claim that rises above an error is investigated, it turns out to be bogus (a lie), immaterial, based on incomplete evidence or a misreading of the facts. Even the “best” evidence they’ve come up with doesn’t meet the burden of proof laid out in the RCWs when it comes to over-turning the election.
Sorry Republicans, just because you’ve suddenly “discovered” that errors happen doesn’t mean Sore-Loser Dino Lossi gets a do-over.
Are you saying for sgure there was no fraud? The R’s, by the quotes you provided, only state the potential of fraud, as well as the incompetence, etc. You don’t know that some of these revelations are not a result of fraud, some very well may be but reality is it does not matter. Fraud or incompetence or errors still equates to NO confidence in the result of the election.
We will learn whether the rule of law prevails and there is a smooth transition of power with a subsequent election contest or the orange mob will have seized power by force.
Comment by Erik— 1/11/05 @ 11:42 am
Surely you are not suggesting the action today in Olympia is illegal, and breaks from the Rule of Law? Is it law that there is a smooth transition of power? Or do the people have a right, under the law, to protest and or peaceful assembly. Just because it is not a “Smooth Transition” does not make it an illegal transition. Show me where any of the actions taking place are not legitimate under the “Rule of Law”. Even if the R’s convinced the Legislature to delay certification, which only could happen if it was legal to happen. So enough with the rule of law diversion.
Comment by jcricket— 1/11/05 @ 1:02 pm
You really have no idea what you are talking about. How many times does it have to be said, everything they are doing is legal and part of the process. You are insane to think “It’s not the bank’s responsibility to make your checkbook and your bank statement reconcile. It’s possible they never will, especially if you’re not using them in the same way (like not writing down ATM withdrawals in your checkbook)”.
If your bank says you took out $1800.00 dollars from you account, and you don’t agree, it does not reconcile with your records, you would demand that they provide their records to prove you did so. If they could not show where you deducted the money that would have to give it back. And the reverse of that, if you showed depositing $1800.00 but the bank did not reflect it you would have to provide the copy of the receipt or you would be out of luck.
The only way it is possible, as you say, that they may never reconcile is if one party is will to ignore the discrepancy and make an arbitrary adjustment. To either adjust up or down the balance to make it reconcile or just accept the fact that you will never really know how much money you have in the bank. Under your analogy you would just keep writing checks regardless if the bank said you were out of money. As long as you think you have money why stop writing? These things, bank accounts and elections apparently, aren’t supoosed to reconcile.
Busboy, I was pointing out that Cynical was wrong when he admonished Goldy. He claimed that Democrats were the ones raising the spector of fraud. Republicans, led by Vance, were out of the gates with these accusations as soon as they sensed they might lose. As Goldy points out, this is an excellent public relations technique but a poor legal argument.
This brings up a broader point, which echoes Goldy’s orignial argument. All along Republicans have put all of put all their efforts into playing a PR game in which they hoped to bully the Democrats (and voters) into submission. That game ends when we move to the courts.
Rule of Law Prevails
Legislature votes to recognize Reed’s certification of election certifying Gregoire.
I was looking for a more lively debate. The republican legislatures really didn’t have their heart in it. I doubt they would have had the debates unless the orange crowd had threatened them with anarchy.
The suggestion that a legislative body can weigh the evidence and witnesses better than a court is baseless. No one believes it. A legislative body is in no position to hold a trial and has never done so in Washington. This is the reason we have courts.
The democrat’s statement of “We trust our republican Secretary of State and republican and democrat canvassing boards” seemed to carry the day.
A republican legislator argued that she had just overheard some store clerks at a store indicate they were unsure of the election and that this was her basis for a re-vote.
Now its time for the contest. I guess since the republicans have such a strong case I can just print out the various posts on Unsound, anonymous emails, and fax them to the court. Since the evidence is so overwhelming, the court should be able to overturn the election summarily.
Republicans vote failed 65-80. Some members were sick.
All along that is all I have been saying, let the process run its course. The contest the court fights, all just part of the process. Only time will tell if there is any validity to the case of the R’s. And in the end a decision will be made and we will all have to live with it, whatever it is. But I assure you it is not over until ALL options have been exhausted by both parties. If the courts rule in favor of the R’s, I promise you, all of you will want the Dems to take any and all legal action available to them at the time. How all that will play out is to be determined but it will only get more interesting I am sure.
Comment by Erik— 1/11/05 @ 1:43 pm
I wish I was as connected as you! I did not know the lawyers for the republican came to your house and presented their case to you personally. As in any case the highlights of evidence are discussed prior to trial (accusations, some light details) but the actual evidence is not presented in the media it is presented in court. And if, as you say, the R’s have no case – you have nothing to worry about. Example; We all knew tape recordings existed of Scott Peterson and Amber Frye but noone in the public heard them before the trial. You can’t say the tapes don’t prove anything before you hear them, can you? Maybe they don’t in the end but you must hear the evidence to know for sure.
Military Vote Observation – The R’s are really on a false hope here. Just flag waving. Problems go back years and years and are more of a problem with Postal problems than counties and procedures.
These so called problems were mentioned by almost every R in the debate……yet if there is a problem, it is long standing, has had some effect on every election for years, and can be blamed on many factors – no fraud and mistakes beyond any control- post office probmes of the Services and US Post.
Strange how they think they have a big deal….R’s have become very good at flag waving on any issue.
I wish I was as connected as you! I did not know the lawyers for the republican came to your house and presented their case to you personally.
They don’t. But the legislative hearings are available for public hearing and Rossi’s documents can be viewed over the internet. This is where they present their case.
Oh, Chris. All us Dems ar SO scared — fishing trips are not the way to build this kind of case. Your nit wit attorneys have nothing.
But I bet they charge the State R’s 300.00 hr at least. Who is the fool?
And if, as you say, the R’s have no case – you have nothing to worry about. Example; We all knew tape recordings existed of Scott Peterson and Amber Frye but noone in the public heard them before the trial. You can’t say the tapes don’t prove anything before you hear them, can you?
I agree with you completely. I can’t say that no evidence exists which would overturn the election, only that Vance and team do not believe they have enough yet. Maybe they will find some Peterson like tapes that you suggest.
It would be a bit silly to give away all of your evidence prior to discovery now wouldnt it? The party of the Jackass took their sweet time to steal this election, it will take time to recover the stolen property…
Comment by jcricket— 1/11/05 @ 10:16 am
The left wingnut speaks. Well, well NOW HEAR THIS (thanks in no small part to Orbusmax.com and then the Seattle Times): King “county Elections Director Dean Logan, said Friday many of the unexplained ballots probably were cast by registered voters who failed to sign in when they went to polling places.”
Well, how many of them were legit voters? Or from the grave? Or felons? Or fraudulent voters running from polling place to polling place?
Only 129 vote spread. Please remember that as I offer you yet another rope out of the wet river called Denial…
Josef – Goldy and the auditors have explained that the discrepancy is to be expected (the two lists aren’t designged to reconcile). Determining voter eligibility is a front-end process, done at the time of signing in. I’ll take their word (all 39 of them + the SOS) over you, anyday.
NOT MEANT TO RECONCILE? A FIRST YEAR ACCOUNTING STUDENT CAN TELL YOU THIS IS A RIPE OPPORTUNITY FOR ERROR AND OMMISSION. WHAT A JOKE, DIDNT QUEEN CHRISTINE CLAIM THAT THERE WERE PROBLEMS BEFORE SHE TOOK THE LEAD? NOW IT IS THE MOST ACCURATE ELECTION IN STATE HISTROY? WHAT A FLIPPIN JOKE…
These so called problems were mentioned by almost every R in the debate……yet if there is a problem, it is long standing, has had some effect on every election for years, and can be blamed on many factors – no fraud and mistakes beyond any control- post office probmes of the Services and US Post.
Comment by Peter— 1/11/05 @ 2:01 pm
You now want to blame the post offcie for not getting them out. King county it appears did not send out the majority of these ballots until 10/13. Even though the lied on their webiste (twice) and even after the Feds threatened to sue. this is not even the biggest problem and it is plenty big to turn this thing around. Why th elies and cover up on the dates the ballots were mailed?
Damn – Goldy you need to add grammar and spell check to this site – For us publick Skool eddukated tipes.
Comment by jcricket— 1/11/05 @ 3:19 pm
Yeah, and how many provisional ballots were put in the machine and then couldn’t be checked? Or how much white-out was put on how many ballots?
This is an UNCLEAN – as in Ukranian – election. Go to http://orangeukraine.squarespace.com for a great blog on what the REAL Ukraine is like.
Oh, and were YOU calling me one of the “facists”?
wow, what’s it like to be the only governor who didn’t get 100% certification by the legislature??? aye-yay-aye
You might ask what’s it like for Bush to be president with the lowest approval ratings and smallest margin of popular support for any 2nd term president in the last 100 years? What’s it like for Bush to be the first president where the certification was openly debated on the floor of the House and Senate?
My guess is that Republicans would argue that all of that “doesn’t matter” because Bush won the election.