[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV37LrNG7KI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
In case you haven’t been following this truly bizarre/disturbing story, Ohio GOP Congressional candidate Rich Iott has not only been exposed as an avid Nazi SS re-enactor, he’s even gone so far as to defend the Nazis as merely wanting to protect their homeland from the greater threat of Bolshevism.
And when asked last night by CNN’s Anderson Cooper whether he thought the members of the 5th SS Wiking Panzer Division he portrays were “valiant men,” Iott refused to pass judgement:
Iott defended the members of the unit, who he said “wanted to fight what they saw as a bigger threat to them than Germany,” so they joined up with the Nazis to fight the eastern front of the war against Soviet forces. “I don’t think we can sit here and judge that today. We weren’t there the time they made those decisions…”
“I don’t think we can sit here and judge that today.” Huh. Tell that to all my murdered and never-born relatives.
There are cynical folks who like to claim that there isn’t much difference between the Republicans and the Democrats, but I’m pretty damn sure my party isn’t running a self-avowed Nazi sympathizers this cycle.
notice how the seattle times interview of delbene and reichert avoided any unpleasant subjects like obama’s afpak surge, war crimes, torture, the bp oil volcano and offshore drilling, or the erosion of the 4th amendment?
here’s a “key issue” for the 8th cd race people:
Korean restrictions on U.S. beef and auto imports
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....lbene.html
i’m torn
My comment from the Daily Kos thread in relpy to proud leftist fits here nicely,
I was really surprised by Iott’s responses. He actually dug in his heels (nice boots) in his defense of his actions. It was clearly apparent, both in the whole of the AC interview, and in other comments he has made, that he saw nothing wrong with regularly portraying an SS officer. I am sure many people feel the same, never once considering that acting as a Nazi is, very much in essence, wholeheartedly endorsing the enterprise. The unit, to which he was attached in spirit, was not free of war crimes, atrocities, and the indiscriminate killing of Jews.
Tolerance for intolerance is intolerable.
Many in the Tea Baggers seem to think that the rest of us should “respect: their beliefs .. whether those belief are homophobic, racist,Christian millenialist or any of dozens of other belirfs that say “I have the right to dictate how you live because these are my beliefs.”
I know that the usual trolls .. Puddy,Cyinic, and Beckoner, will pipe ups and say the progressives are the intolerant ones. Sometimes that is true. But you would have to look very far from the bulk of the Democratic party to find bigots comparable to Messrs Beck, Palin, Rove, Angle, O’Donnell, Hannity, O’Reilly, ,,,,
Some Tea Baggers will win on Tuesday, the US will be a much poorer place for it.
Bush II himself is looking pretty sensible and moderate about right now. Give me a mere dissolute recovering alcoholic with daddy issues any day, as opposed to the freaks now running as R.
Toleration of the Hackenkreus?
Toleration of the Stars and Bars?
Yeh, and free speech says we should tolerate cross burnings and slavery too,
How many good Republicans take their wives with them to visit the whore houses in DC as an education?
How many Tea Bag suckers brag of having gay friends?
Tolerance of Intolerance is NOT a virtue.
@6
Yeah, pretty much. And I’ve always felt Bush1 did a better job than he got credit for.
“but I’m pretty damn sure my party [Democratic] isn’t running an self-avowed Nazi sympathizers this cycle.”
Well what about other cycles?
CHALLENGE TO THE TROLLS: Identify the last Democratic candidate for federal office who was a self-avowed Nazi sympathizer.
@9
Do old-style Dixiecrats count?
They’re into that purity of the race stuff like Nazis. OTOH, they’re pretty indistinguishable from Republicans anymore anyway.
re 1:
So, what are you saying? That we’d better vote Republican to get some positive actions on these things?
You’ve identified what you believe are some relevant critcisms of the Obama administration. What do you think the solutions to the problems are and why is your candidate better equipped to deal with them.
I seriously doubt that you will find solutions in a party that backs candidates whose hobby is to dress up and act like a nazi on the weekends.
TGIF takes on a whole different meaning in that context.
Sig Heil …. patriot.
@5
I whole-heartedly agree.
That’s a tricky game bigots play – claiming some noxious belief is somehow sacrosanct, that we who might oppose it are somehow the intolerant ones.
Well…I am intolerant of ignorance and cruelty and know-nothingism and bigotry. I am intolerant of the fear that seems to rule the thinking of our right-wing friends. I am intolerant of the greed and hypocrisy and adolescent libertarianism that would lead so many of our wingnut friends to render so many of our fellow citizens second-, third- fourth-class participants in our democracy.
They certainly have a right to be free of the governmant limiting their ability to profess their corrosive thoughts, but they certainly don’t get a pass from their fellow citizens calling bullshit and making clear that we’ll fight to the last breath to oppose them.
I’m not going to criticize someone for merely being a re-enactor. Growing up near the civil war battlefields at Chickamauga and Chattanooga, I was acquainted with a number of them. Most were serious students of the history of the conflict, and would even be so dedicated as to spend their vacations in the Library of Congress so they could read private journals of civil war soldiers which were not generally available in print.
Being from the South, most of the re-enactors with whom I was acquanted were members of Confederate re-enactor units. If asked about slavery and the politics of the war, most simply said it was an issue of honoring the sacrifices of soldiers from both sides, north and south, who fought for what they perceived to be their country. Some adopted the identities of specific solder, so while they were in role they would give the responses that soldier was known to have given in his journals and correspondence – usually that he was drafted into the army, or that he was fighting to “repel a yankee invasion”, etc.
But the problem with staging a re-enactment of a civil war battle is that distance had a lot to do with how many units were present from each side. Gettysburg re-enactments usually draw re-enactor units from both the North and the South, but re-enactments further south drew mostly Confederate units. In such cases, the “host units” would switch sides – becoming “galvinized Yankees”, and had a second set of Union uniforms which they could wear in such an instant. (In the Civil War era, there were actually Confederate prisoners who took up the offer to wear Union blue to fight against native american raids in the west, as long as they never had to fight against their former comrades – which were given the nickname at the time “galvinized Yankees”, taken from the fact that galvined metal is mostly grey, but takes on a bluish tint in the galvinizing process).
Anyway, that’s why I don’t criticize re-enactors merely for practicing this as a hobby. But you always run into the guys who take things too far – the ones who really believe the South should have won the war, the ones who will defend slavery and seccession and take it as part of a political cause, rather than a historical interest or hobby.
I know there are WWII re-enactors as well, but I’ve never known any. It makes sense that to conduct a WWII re-enactment, SOMEBODY has to play the part of the German army.
But the selection of this particular unit seems a little strange – the original SS division was composed mostly of pro-Nazis volunteers from occupied territories which the Germans could call sufficiently “Nordic” to embrace them as being “fellow Aryans” – principally volunteers from the Netherlands, Norway, and Belgium, and a few from othewise neutral Sweden. It fought almost exclusively on the Eastern Front.
5th SS Panzer Division Wiking
re 9:
The positive things Bush did for America are all state secrets.
Yes. He is that good. And history students of the future will enjoy studying his exploits because the pages will all be redacted.
Can’t be too safe.
re 13: Do you buy into the ‘war of northern aggression’ meme?
I’m not asking you if you think the believers are sincere. I’m asking if you think that they are right and if so, why?
By the way, the Wikipedia article on this particular SS division notes the Joseph Mengele served as a medic in the unit during the early years of the war.
And the division was implicated in war crimes, cooperating with the Einsatzgruppe A in the execution of some 50 to 60 Jews, and in conducting a death march of Hungarian Jews in April 1945 in which a number of Jews were murdered. The death count doesn’t seem so highly, only because it pales in comparison to the scope of the Nazi atrocities to the Jews and the Eastern Front in general.
“It makes sense that to conduct a WWII re-enactment, SOMEBODY has to play the part of the German army.”
To re-enact history shouldn’t SOMEBODY play part of the Jews?
“15. headless lucy spews:
re 13: Do you buy into the ‘war of northern aggression’ meme?”
Nope, not me. I believe slavery was an abomination, and seccession was the stupidist thing the South could have done.
But I, and a few Southerners like myself, sometime take the opportunity to kid the “Yankees” about it. I just wanted to encourage them to go beyond the 7th grade history texts to learn more about the war.
I also learned pretty early that if you are in a bar and the band starts to play Dixie, it’s generally a good idea to stand up, take off your hat, and sing at the top of your voice. Some environments just aren’t conducive to a scholarly discussion of historial and political issues, especially if you are outnumbered by a considerable margin.
# 17: Renactments are usually of battles. Perhaps they could have a re-enactment of the uprising at the Sobribor concentration camp?
@1 ROTFLMAO. That’s SOOO nutty anti-reality it’s almost cute. You’re not mad at the previous Pres…the guy who started/championed off shore drilling, war crimes, started the wars, gave no bid contracts to his vice-presidents IMMEDIATE previous employer, sponsored torture and created TARP and the bailouts….LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. FUNNY! But you’re mad at Obama because he’s continuing SOME of this stuff which you were FOR when a white guy wanted it…LOL LOL LOL. Priceless.
Anyway, as to THIS particular racist wingnut, I wonder if he thinks Al Qaeda’s foot soldiers are just “valiant men and women defending their homeland, religion and traditions” from western influence. Come on…defend them too. The problem with the “they were just doing what they were ordered to” defense is that it can apply to ANY group (like Al Qaeda). You can argue the little guys don’t really know the big picture (or care) and are doing it for a hot meal, money, glory, whatever.
Why didn’t this guy just say he likes the re-enactments for the “history” and sometimes it’s “fun” to play the bad guy…just ask ANY actor. Then at least you admit the NAZI’s are bad guys instead of having to DEFEND them and claim they might had a justification for what they did.
21: Exactly.
You know he’s heading down the wrong road when he tries to excuse an SS division consisting mostly of volunteers from foreign countries which were entirely safe from a draft.
If you know the history of pre-WWII and WWII Europe, there was not shortage of those guys, quite a few of whom were rabidly anti-Semetic and applauded the Nazis for “solving the problem” in their own countries. The Americans and British found out that the resistance network in the Netherlands was so compromised that any agents they parachuted into that country were quickly rounded up by the Gestapo.
re 18: It’s a good idea in general to stay out of the south, where the per capita violent moron count is higher than any other place on earth.
AND, I would like to see one of these good-old boys try to make everyone sing Dixie at a bar north of the Mason Dixon Line (which is generally accepted by educators to be the line between 80 and 81 on the IG test). I think he’d learn the same lesson you learned.
re 23: I meant IQ test, but I claim an exemption because I did spend a week in Texas once and it’s hurt my spelling ever since.
@19 Maybe they could re-enact this, RHP,
From Wiki,
“Witnesses report that the Jewish victims were forced to run a gauntlet formed by soldiers who would beat them as they passed, and when they reached the end of the gauntlet, Einsatzgruppen officers murdered them and their bodies were pushed into a bomb crater.”
lets see who democrats have traditionaly admired…fidel castro communist murderer, mao communist murderer, daniel ortega communist murderer, joseph stalin communist murderer.
so shut the fuck up about nazis who have been dead for 60 years. you guys support current commies.
THP
The problem with your tolerance of folks dressed up as Confederates is that YOU are not the descendant of slaves.
Of course folks have a right to play act this way. However, to do so without being aware of the insult you are making to your brother and sister is simply wrong.
Maybe a thought experiment would help. I am sure you know that we Jews take offense at the re-enactment of Jesus’ crucifixion at Oberamgau.
How do you suppose my Christian brother and sister would feel if we turned that coin over and depicted Jesus (as he likely was) as typical mildly psychotic radical who deserved to die because he demeaned organized Judaism and provoked Roman violence?
Even if our intent was purely educational, most Jews would never do this either out of fear of retaliation or respect for our fellow citizens.
Say, mot, how about you playing the role of Jew in these re-enactments? I bet you’d get a kick out of the gauntlet beating, being shot dead, and then being dumped in a bomb crater. Great fun, huh?
MOT …
“we” support current commies?
Who is it that is exporting jobs to Communist China because “they” are more efficient?
As for Castro, so tell me .. are you equally critical of his predecessor? Ortega? What pisses you off about him? Is Nicaragua somehow more evil than Mexico or Pananama?
Even Mao and Stalin, at the HEIGHT of their popularity among the extreme left here, NEVER were supported by candidates running for office en mass like your current crew of neo fascists.
If Palin, Angel, Rove, O’Donnell, Hannity, Limbaugh, and their ilk do not scare the shit out of your backhole, you lack any sense of patriotism and ought to go back to wherever you belong.
@27 Steve …
WHAT a concept.
How about we approach Fox with a new reality show?
The Mansion
It will go like this. The cast well be selected from talented AA athletes. They will play Southern masters.
Each season, the competitors, all “white Christians” will agree to work and live on the manse as slaves.
Each week, the slaves will be brought before the Master for judgment, with punishments including heavier shackles, reduced rations, solitary confinement, cleaning the toilets, stoop labor, wearing of derogatory signs etc. No “real” violence will be used.
The better slaves may be rewarded by articles of clothing, better food, or even by assignment as house servants.
A slave can win by escaping or by being awarded “freedom: at the end of the season.
(c) SJ 2010.
Our proto-fascist trolls, Pudpuller and Klynical, are conspicuously absent here today…
Steve and SJ, one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes dealt with a jew hater bigot (much like man o’ lies) who wakes up to find — SURPRISE — he’s a Jew hiding from Nazis!
So it’s been done, but it can’t be done too much, IMO.
I say proto-fascist because Klynical and Pudpuller are just useful idiots in the merger of state and corporate power.
Sort of Judas Goatfuckers, if you will.
@29
sj, i dont support exporting jobs to china for two reasons. one, it takes them away from us, two, morally, we wouldnt export jobs to the current topic, nazis, so we shouldnt export them to equally bad communists. however, there is no way you can honestly say its only republicans that want to cooperate with china. thats disengenous.
#33 I RESPECT free traders. I DO NOT RESPECT hypocrites who justify sending jibs tio China because it is a “free” market.
The latter, as far as I know, is a strictly Republican idea.
As for China, today’s China is FAR RIGHT .. not far left. Like Mussolini’s regime, the CP of china supports state capitalism combined with Chinese chauvinistic nationalism. Look at what they are doing in the South China Sea?
My fear is that right wing extremists here and in China represent the same phenomenon.
BTW, where is the conservative outrage over Liu Xiaobo? So far I have heard and seen Obama, the French and German leaders, etc speak out. Where are the conservatives? can’t they spell C_H_I_N_A? Or are they too suffused with Chinese C_A_S_H?
“(c) SJ 2010”
Well, SJ, only if we share the copyright and royalties. A representative of my very excellent legal firm, Rabbit & Leftist LLP, will soon be in touch with you. I’m sure we can work something out.
#31 ,, Yeh, but the copyrighted concept here is to create a reality!
Can’t you see GWB, Cynical, Piper, Beck, Troll, Palin, Beckster, Hannity, ODonnell in slave rags?
Actually, I think Puddy would be a GREAT master in this setting. NOTE .. my concept does not limit the slaves to conservatives! Wonder with me .. what happens if the slave cast included Goldy, McDimwitt, Rossi, McKenna, and Lee?
Of course, as the originator of the idea I get to be the producer and can nto appear on the show. Besides as a fat guy, that would be GROSS!
Re 34
“I DO NOT RESPECT hypocrites who justify sending jibs tio China because it is a “free” market.”
Jibs wouldn’t help the Chinese. Junks don’t use them. Maybe Spinnakers or Genoas for the sloops made in Taiwan boatyards?
@35
The copyright has been expressed and is valid. However, we are interested in investors.
“Besides as a fat guy, that would be GROSS!”
I dunno, SJ, it didn’t seem to hurt Orson Welles and Burl Ives much. Besides, there’s probably those, both left and right, who would pay to see you and Lee picking cotton side by side while Puddy’s putting the whip to you.
“The copyright has been expressed and is valid.”
Hmm, so it would appear. But if you don’t mind, I’ll wait until I hear from Mr. Rabbit on that one. Please remember that, if we end up going to court over this matter, it’s nothing personal, SJ. It’s purely business.
I am not sure I would be comfortable picking cotton next to lee unless Puddy was willing to protect me from Lee. Lee has threatened many times to fuck me. While I am not gay, I am open to experimentation but somehow suspect Lee’s intent is more akin to violent rape than an act of love.
Ax for Burl Ives and Orson Welles (add in Zero Mostel and John Goodman) I do not recall their ever playing a role where they needed to be nealry bear nekkid. I suspect that would repel even viewers who came to see Palin in her slave rags.
We do need to think about audience share. Perhaps we could offer a Japanese version where the slaves are very fat gladiators?
@37 LSIB
as a PC rightie, I assume you respect my rights as TSP? (Typographically Disabled Person?)?
“I do not recall their ever playing a role where they needed to be nealry bear nekkid”
You raise a very good point which I hadn’t considered, SJ. Would Touch of Evil still be considered a classic if Welles had appeared “bear nekkid”? Would Cat on a Hot Tin Roof have faired well with Ives as a bear nekkid “Big Daddy”? I don’t think so, although a nekkid Liz Taylor might have salvaged the latter’s box office appeal. No offense, SJ, but on second thought, perhaps we should leave you to just writing the scripts.
Tx,
I think fatty porn is a rare and sophisticated taste.
OTOH, Limbaugh, waves of fat rippling over a loin cloth as he serves Magic Johnson a mint Julip! What an image.
From @9 on 10/12/2010 at 11:43 am
CHALLENGE TO THE TROLLS: Identify the last Democratic candidate for federal office who was a self-avowed Nazi sympathizer.
What? You can’t find any Democratic federal candidates EVER who were self-avowed Nazi sympathizers?
Well congratulations self-avowed Republican sympathizers!
Your party of choice stands alone in US history as the only national party with self-avowed Nazi sympathizers as a candidate for federal office.
Makes you feel proud, don’t it?
SJ @ 27: Your point is taken, but how does the existence of black re-enactory units, wearing Union blue (of course), figure into this? There aren’t very many, but they are growing in number, since the movie “Glory” came out. Do you propose that they charge into a formation of guys wearing pink? Wouldn’t preventing re-enactments by Confederate units also deny them the chance to publicize that their ancestors were willing and able to fight for their own freedom, when given the chance?
Besides, most Confederate soldiers outside of the Army of Northern Virginia seldom wore grey – they wore butternut brown, mostly the civilian clothes they brought with them. At Chickamauga, this caused some confusion, as some of Longstreet’s two divisions loaned from the Army of Northern Virginia (ANV)to the Army of Tennessee (AoT) had recently been issued brand-new uniforms and knapsacks from the Richmond Depot, in a “cadet grey” color which was more blue than grey (the blue tended to fade when subjected to the elements). At least a couple of times during the Battle of Chickamauga, Union troops held there fire for too long while Texas troops wearing their new uniforms advanced, the Union officers believing them to be Union troops. As veterans who had spent the war entirely in what was referred to as the “Western Theatre”, they couldn’t believe that Confederate troops would be so well outfitted. And at the start of the war uniforms of volunteer regiments were so varied that quite a few on both sides were dressed as “Zouave” units, and neither side had a monopoly on either blue or grey.
By the way, every good Civil War movie over the past twenty years which shows more than a handful of combatants has used re-enactor units. It simply isn’t economically feasable to pay, uniform, equip, and teach a thousand or more men to perform drill maneuvers on the battlefield without the use of volunteer re-enactors.
Now, I can see how in the modern era using what some call the “Confederate Flag” might be offensive to blacks, even though it’s history is quite different than what most understand. But in the historical context of a civil war re-enactment, I think it is valid – as long as it is historically accurate in it’s usage. Most Confederate troops never fought under that flag, but that’s another long story.
MoT @ 26: Mao and Stalin are still alive? Who knew??????
I’m not quite sure why reenacting warfare would be pleasurable for an adult. Could someone enlighten me?
Re 42
I not only respect them, I share them. Just thought the image funny of Chinese Junks (actually a pretty remarkable marine design) with jib sails on them funny.
Probably the same reason people participate in renaissance fairs. A diversion into another place and time, allowing them to role-play a life which is more interesting than their current one.
As for myself, I’ve never been a re-enactor, but as a “student of history” I’ve always been astounded at the courage of the average soldier of that war, on both sides, in charging a position where they know that anywhere from 10% to 50% of them will become casualties within a few minutes.
By the way, I’ve never done a survey, but I doubt a majority of re-enactors are combat veterans. They may have served in the military, but most combat veterans don’t like to engage in hobbies which might bring back memories of actual combat.
I think anyone who spends a significant amount of time pretending (reenacting) to be someone else in a different time is a bit dim, with the possible exception of actors who supposedly would get paid for this activity.
About Rich Iott, what kind of person born in 1951 sympathizes with Nazis? Think about this. Even IF there were (and there are not!) some mitigating fact of Nazi positive influence (and there is NOT!), where would an Ohio boy born in 1951 learn this?
Oh yeah. Rich Iott attended Hillsdale College.
Got that? The self-avowed Nazi sympathizer and Republican candidate, Rich Iott, went to the same college, Hillsdale College, as 25th Legislative District Republican candidate, Hans Zeiger.
Goldy, your next run of the Daily Hans showing the connection should show some love. :-)
@47
MoT @ 26: Mao and Stalin are still alive? Who knew??????
current means fidel and ortega, wiseguy.
this whole subject is much ado about nothing.
I have an acquaintance who owns a Mk III Panzer tank(along with some allied hardware as well), is he a nazi or nazi lover now too?
Christ goldy, you really are panicking this year about the elections – as well you should be.
keep it up though, you are a good little goebbels wannabe….I would say by his actions, goldy is the biggest nazi sympathizer here.
@53, no better demonstration of crass stupidity exists than your accusation of Goldy above. Congratulations Half wit!
@54
go screw your boyfriend scoutboy.
goldy is a proud student of goebbels and his ways…lies, half truths, lies via omission, denigration of all who dont follow in lock step with the D-party agenda…its all Goebbels 101 stuff.
@55, Identify the last Democratic candidate for federal office who was a self-avowed Nazi sympathizer.
@55, thanks for the title of the course, Goebbels 101.
I didn’t have access to a Hillsdale College syllabus.
Someone please tell this idiot that Germany invaded Russia, not the other way around.
To: the chickenshit troll and Puddybud
He’s got an R next to his name:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127932,00.html
I’m sure he’s for lower taxes and less regulation too.
52:
Daniel Ortega – Geraldo Rivera – are they the same man?
Discuss…..
@60 Broadway Joe on 10/12/2010 at 7:28 pm,
Wait.
Are you talking about the Daniel Ortega who was a communist Sandanista who won the office of president of Nicaragua in elections sanctioned by the George W. Bush administration in 2006? The Daniel Ortega that was called and congratulated on his electoral victory by George W. Bush?
Cuz if you are, the only thing that makes Republican
nonsense is that the President Ortega congratulated by George W. Bush cannot be the Ortega purged by Reagan, and therefore President Ortega must be …. Geraldo Rivera.We really need Glenn Beck to put this on his chalk board of history.
Don’t ANY of these right-wing assholes know ANYTHING about history??? ANYTHING at all?
To the dirt stain@59,
How many times do you need to be reminded of Lee’s comments?
100? 1000? 10,000?
Still dumb as dirt. Only one dirt stain in this patch!
Judging from this cycles campaign ads, that isn’t the way Republicans look at things. According to them, no matter how royally the right wing screws things up, it’s the fault of the left, and everyone needs to (1) rescue them from their own mistakes, and (2) keep them in charge so they can make a new round of mistakes.
If Republicans held the Congress and the Presidency in 1941, they would have tried to send American troops to help Germany fight the Soviets, while trying to stong-arm Britain into thowing in the towel and joining the Axis.
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