A quick link to Knute Berger’s Mossback column in the current Seattle Weekly: “It’s All Downhill.”
Knute scales the “slippery slopes” of Seattle politics, from publicly financed stadiums, to sweetheart land deals, to the monorail, before planting his flag atop City Hall, where he sees few council members willing to question the city’s priorities.
But the problem is bigger, and I’m not talking about the mayor’s girth. Greg Nickels is heading for re-election virtually unopposed. The neighborhoods have no local hero to put forward; the town’s newly energized Republican minority seems satisfied with being blog blowhards; and liberals are willing to accept Nickels’ No Billionaire Left Behind policies as long as he says “yes” to everyone.
Hmmm… Republican “blog blowhards.” I wonder who he could be talking about?
But I found Knute’s final comment most intriguing:
How far have we slid down this slippery slope? There isn’t even an amusing gag candidate on the horizon.
Are you thinking what I’m thinking? Naaaah… what would I do if I won?
Hmmm… Republican “blog blowhards.” I wonder who he could be talking about?
The secessionist bloggers are planning to withdraw from Washington. The problem is there is no where to go.
The chants of splitting the state and counties up is apparently the Washington version of The South Shall Rise Again. Too bad no ones told them that Washington was never a southern state.
Talk about blog blowhards, I haven’t visited this site in a few days. What’s up folks no news but beating up on the republicans. Gets kinda boring after listening the kennedy ramble on all day. Must have some tax hike or land grab to talk about for the good of the Children. Come on now, you’re letting me down!
Goldy….Maybe a little military experience before you run for public office? That would be in the United States military, Goldy, as opposed to some communist country.
Goldy: “[W]hat would I do if I won?”
You could just keep blogging. Except now you could label it a Community Outreach Initiative, get a zillion dollars in funding and employ a staff of 15 — all union members who can’t be fired, downsized, rightsized or RIF’d — to do what you’re doing all on your own right now. ;)
You should go for it, Goldy. At least you have a lot of principles and core beliefs. The same cannot be said about most of the Democrats that are running the city government in Seattle these days. You might even get most of the votes of the “Republican blowhards”, as you call them, if the general election comes down between yourself and Greg Nickels.
Go for it Goldy!
It would be fun watching Mr. C foaming at the mouth, slathering all over his breakfast every morning while reading the paper (“THE FREAKING PUNK-ASS MAYOR JUST GAVE A 0.1% PENSION BENEFIT INCREASE TO THE SCUMBAG CITY EMPLOYEES”). It would be the tipping point for Mr. C. He would finally be forced to take up radical anger management, or would have a embolism (Hmmm. . . maybe I could make a nice donation from my discretionary money).
Hugs and kisses!
but you might turn into a blog blowhard.
Mrs. C, that was great. Sounds like a “ringer” though, but great.
And Goldy, isn’t Mayor non-partisan? Why all this talk about R and Ds if that is the case? Why not just get a good mayor?
But hey, you have made a lot of friends here, so go for it. You got my vote and I don’t even live in Seattle, but I know all the tricks to vote a couple of times. After all, I was once registered in the 70s and I can always call myself “homeless”.
You got my vote. Why not run against Sims?
Hey swatter! Go for it! If Pam Roach and the (u)SP crowd get their “reasonable” reforms you would be a class C felon!
Monroe awaits!
bmvaughn @7,
“Turn into”…? You’re making an awful big assumption there.
swatter @8,
Non-partisan, my ass. I’ve blogged on this before, but what a stupid concept… non-partisan elections. We all know that the Mayor and all the council members are Democrats. The question is, what kind of Democrat.
You’re too nice to run for office. You’ve have to hone your dark side skills extensively.. ;0
That said, good candidates are hard to come by. By good I mean principled AND schooled in the art of listening.
If you’re even considering a run for office, I would be willing to offer any help I could.
Side note…listening to the US House blather on about what language to put in a bill that tells the public what to do if all government officials are destroyed in a nuclear attack. Now there’s a good expenditure of the people’s time. Good holy moly…
If you won you wouldn’t need the initiative process to call Eyman a horses’ ass. You could get the Shark declared toothless. And you could get yourself declared “not sweet.” By executive order if need be.
Goldy, Although “redistributing” the wealth didn’t work in Harare, perhaps you could make this policy a cornerstone of your campaign in Seattle. Lots of Democrat libs there love this kind of stuff, and you will be able to pull 95% plus of the black votes!! More if they vote twice! “Johannesburg – President Robert Mugabe confessed yesterday that millions of acres of prime land seized from Zimbabwe’s white farmers are now lying empty and idle.”
JCH… STFU.
I second Aaron’s motion! ;0
Aaron re 15: do you have trouble handling opposing points of view?
15…Aaron..”JCH… STFU.” Hey, A little Marxism is the backbone of the Democrat libs. “From each……, To each”!! Why not just “redistribute” assets from those who earned them to those who vote Democrat!! Isn’t that what the progressive income taxes are for? Goldy would really draw lots of “progressive” [communist] votes, and the minorities would vote early in often!! Like Robert Mugabe, Goldy would be a hero!!
Visual:
4th grade playground.
little boys playing game.
glasses wearing small kid winning game.
overweight loudmouthed bully starts trying to intimidate.
getting attention, even negative, is very important to the bully.
divert attention from him losing.
JCH…kids grow up and negative attention getting works in reverse.
In other words, stfu.
Rush 17, if there was a point of view there, it would be OK. Associating your opponent with the most radical and dysfunctional form of the philosophy is an absurd and asinine form of argument.
Calling Bush Hitler is stupid. Comparing Seattle City Hall with the Mugabe kleptocracy is stupid.
Frankly, if JCH is so opposed to the way things are done in the city of Seattle, there is no reason he has to live here. The city is not even 100 square miles. There’s a whole ‘nother country outside it, and probably a place in it somewhere that he’ll feel at home.
I don’t keep myself up at night thinking about evil Republicans in Wenatchee. I’ve been over there, it doesn’t look like a lot of fun. I don’t go. Is that a hard concept to understand?
G: forgive me. I’m a newbie. your post has merit. but in the posts I’ve read so far, it seems like it might be better directed at Don ?? his posts that I read were just profane insults. seems JCH had point(s) to make. again…my history is 2 days….
Thing is, JCH doesn’t live here in Seattle. He lives in Hawaii. Which is another reason he should STFU.
same goes for this TJ guy in Portland then??
Aaron @ 22: In theory, it doesn’t matter where anyone lives, but…
It’s warm and sunny where JCH is, there’s probably a perfectly nice beach nearby and a tree to sit under, and instead he’s here grousing about liberal Seattlites in his free time?
That is SO wrong I don’t know where to start.
so what’s the big deal? let him spout off. liberals have told me they are open minded. did they lie ??
Rush @25,
I don’t want to take this off-topic, but as your moderator (and future mayor) I thought I’d chime in. The problem with JCH is not political views or his geography. And it is not necessarily his choice of words, or the hateful way he expresses them. It’s that he is not in the least bit interested in discussing the issues I blog on. All he wants to to do is attack the “other side” as evil communists and other such nonsense.
And even that would be okay, once in while. But he litters the threads with vitriolic comment after comment, making it virtually impossible to carry on a real debate here — even an angry, passionate one — without wading through his nonsequitor shit.
Even Cynical occasionally contributes something more than insults, but not JCH. He obviously doesn’t respect my right to free speech, or that of the other people here (on both sides of the ideological divide), and seems intent on destroying this forum. I suppose he would see this as a political victory of sorts.
As to Don, I have asked him to ignore JCH, and not get sucked into these pointless exchanges, and I ask the same from the rest of you. But in addition to engaging in a pissing contest, Don often contributes substance… something JCH has never done.
If you run for Sim’s seat make sure you like CG claim you have never raised taxes on the people of the state, and then you can just claim once you get in that there is no way to avoid it. Looks like what we said was true, she is going to cave in! Really bad timing for that I would imagine, seeing as how we have an election coming up! But they kake the bed they sleep in!
Rush @ 25.
1) Your handle is derivative and your argument style is as well. When I was 14, I stood in my bedroom with a guitar and pretended I was Robert Plant. You’re not 14 anymore. Develop your own voice.
2) JCH has no argument to be open-minded about. If he wants to debate as to whether social services are better handled through churches and charities, or whether society is stronger and functions better when the weak are left to die, or if children who underperform on the WASL are better removed from the school system and put straight to work capping tires, we can sit down and debate that.
If he wants to compare Greg Nickels to Robert Mugabe, I don’t consider it my job to debate why Nickels isn’t as bad as Mugabe. The premise is so fallacious as to not be worth debating. Either JCH needs to find mayor Nickels’s fabulous mansions and numbered Swiss bank accounts, or give it a rest and talk about something real.
Goldy: thank you for your explanation. I agree that posts should have a point, not just be meant to inflame and insult.
I did wonder why democrats posting here would be so sensitive. They have control of the blog, the mayor, the city and county counsils, the Senators, the governor, and most every Congressperson. It would seem like under such circumstances, a liberal could just let a conservative rant without having to resort to STFU, etc. That is, no response or responses to stay on point or even responses to refute.
I will hope this blog, while dominantly liberal, can allow opposing points of view without profanity or questioning one’s IQ. As a conservative, posts by liberals with substance are respected and appreciated by me. The insult game is not.
I believe that HEALTHY interactions can benefit us all. thank you for allowing this conservative to post.
OK GOLDY….YOU ASKED FOR IT.
GOLDY’s THEME SONG
by Brad Paisley
“Someday I’m gonna be famous
Do I have talent…well, no
These days you don’t really need it
Thanks to reality shows (BLOGS)
Can’t wait to date a supermodel
Can’t wait to sue my Dad
Can’t wait to wreck on Ferrari
On my way to rehab
CUZ WHEN YOUR A CELEBRITY
IT’S ADIOS REALITY
YOU CAN ACT JUST LIKE A FOOL
AND PEOPLE THINK YOUR COOL
JUST CUZ YOUR ON TV (OR A BLOG)
Goldy can throw a major fit
When his latte isn’t just how he likes it
When Goldy goes insane
He can blame it on the fame
And pressures that go along
With bein’ a celebrity!!!!!!
Coo-Coo….Coo-Coo!!!!!!!
After running in a non-partisan (ha-ha) election and seeing the amount of work it entails, I decided that from now on, I would pick a horse and ride it by helping out on a campaign.
But, Goldy, how can I do that with you? I have never ridden a horse from your side before. But, I will learn and would help you out.
And, boy, do I ever have a story for you on non-partisan on local races? I remember going up to doors and being bombarded R or D? I would try to guess which side each person was on and tailor my response to each. But, I guessed wrong more often than right.
29.RUSh, You are far to easy on the “progressives”. Goldy needs a little military time to serve before he runs for public office. [I’m certain Goldy has never served, as with most commie lib Democrat “progressives”] Lots of libs on this post, mostly with “guvment” [taxpayer funded ] jobs!!! I AM EQUAL TIME!!!! I SHINE THE LIGHT OF TRUTH ON THEM!! THEY WHINE LIKE BABIES!! [Socialist Democrats: parasites!]
Rush @29 – I think you will find that this forum is one of the most open and accepting blogs around. Goldy seems to go out of his way to not censor even the most asnine of trollers and certainly has no problem accepting reasoned debate.
I get a kick out of folks who admit they’ve only been around a couple days but are ready to condemn practices here.
I have one suggestion for you…read the dang blog. All of the past postings and comments. Might give you the context you need to draw conclusions.
Goldy is lenient to a fault. There have been many meat and potato discussions here between differing viewpoints that ended up so trashed by the kids they aren’t worth wading through any longer.
It’s wise to ignore. It does feel nice once in a while to smack the kids on the back of the head with a stfu, though. ;0
Back to topic…swatter did you really run for an office? I admire that. Most of us just kvetch about the problems. Good for you for taking the initiative to actually try and do something about them.
Hey did you see Joel Connelly’s column yesterday?
I’m thinking Richard Dreyfuss as Goldy, what do you think?
Does this work, can I stick a small picture in here?
jsa on becon hill @ 20
“Frankly, if JCH is so opposed to the way things are done in the city of Seattle, there is no reason he has to live here.”
He doesn’t. He’s in Hawaii.
jsa @ 24
“It’s warm and sunny where JCH is, there’s probably a perfectly nice beach nearby and a tree to sit under, and instead he’s here grousing about liberal Seattlites in his free time?”
Makes you wonder about his mental stability, doesn’t it?
Yes, GDavis, tis true. Great experience; good thing I lost or I would have been in the conundrum Goldy would be in – what would I do if I had won? Several dozens of people have wanted me to do it again. While good for my ego; unfortunately, my wife wasn’t one of them.
As for Goldy’s run for office, I have been known to swat with no reprucussions (except for Don, whose comments I love), but still would volunteer to help be in his cammpaign.
We need good people that aren’t afraid to challenge the system. We need more free thinkers like him.
Goldy @ 26
Goldy, if you want to be mayor, the first thing you need to learn is don’t let anyone take swipes at you free of charge. If they want a pound of your flesh badly enough, you can’t stop them from taking it, but you can make ’em pay for it by the ounce. This is necessary to keep the menagerie under control.
Having pointed that out, I lowered myself into the gutter in responding to JCH because that’s where this rat lives, and that’s where I have to go to step on his tail. It wasn’t pretty the other night, but I ran that coward off the board, and now everyone here knows what he really is.
Of course he came back, and you’ll never be rid of him unless you ban him. No matter how much you philosophically oppose this idea, perhaps someday you’ll come to your senses and realize that some cases are so exceptional they call for the rarely used and exceptional remedy because nothing else works. This guy is trying to sabotage your board, and you need to ask yourself whether any blog can survive if it refuses to use the blog death penalty under any and all circumstances.
Rush @ 23
I don’t recall commenting on Washington politicians per se; my focus is the election contest, the litigants, and a review of statutes, the state Constitution, and relevant case law. Not having a dog in the hunt makes it a lot easier to evaluate, IMO.
Welcome, BTW. If you argue points instead of personalities, you’ll find lots of people willing to engage you.
oh and goldy–I’m reminded of the movie The Candidate. Redford wins his race, and the last line of the film is him sitting on a bed in his hotel room after the victory speech, and he says, “…now what?”
Goldy –
I agree that you should consider doing this. In echo to Richard Pope @5, a thinking Liberal is better than the back-scratchers currently residing in City Hall. Naturally, since I am safely in Texas your term(s) would not have much effect on me, unless I move back there sometime soon. :)
I also echo your analysis of the current Ban question @26. While many of us on the right have made errors of judgement in our comments (whether name-calling or otherwise), this particular offender has had me spitting blood at times because of his lack of etiquette and penchant for destroying my train of thought…
And Rush @various,
Don is gruff, but when you get to know him you realize he is acting from passion, if not thought. I would have descended into the same depths if he weren’t doing it for me. Don is usually a very positive addition to the discussion at hand, even when I don’t agree with him on an issue…
To All:
For years, right-wingers have called us various offensive names including “commies,” “traitors,” “unpatriotic,” “Democcraps,” “Demonrats,” etc. We turned the other cheek, and found that giving them a free ride simply encourages them to descend to even deeper depths of baseness. At the same time, they took particular delight in responding to our insistence on adhering to the rule of civilized discourse us “wimps” and “cowards.”
A time comes when enough is enough. When someone comes after you with a club, you need to use a club too. It’s the only language people with a gangster mentality understand. To quote the wingers’ favorite president, “If war is want they want, war is what they will get.”
Even primitive human societies discipline unruly members. If they didn’t social order would collapse, the community couldn’t survive, and their existence would turn into a law-of-the-jungle free for all. Human nature is the same everywhere, and I know of no message board anywhere else that is run with no enforcement of what people can post. That just doesn’t work, because all it takes to ruin a web site is one person coming to the site with the intention of taking down the site and being allowed to do it. Goldy, how long do you think well-intentioned people will continue to read or post on HA if you allow saboteurs to clog it with trash? JCH is turning your message board into a toilet and pretty soon it won’t flush if you don’t start using the plunger.
I have seen other message boards that want to encourage free and open discussion of controversial topics impose rules and use moderators to enforce them. These web sites have a policy of promptly removing posts that are off topic, off color, or consisting of nothing but slamming or trolling. It is still possible to have lively debate on these boards by those willing to keep their comments pertinent and civil.
On the other hand, if you don’t remove posts intended to be disruptive, you must expect that your web site will be disrupted and eventually the people genuinely interested in debating issues will leave and go somewhere else where they are not being constantly shouted off the board by a couple of disruptive individuals.
I think it’s time for you to make some rules and enforce them. The last few days have made this amply clear.
Don,
I’m thinking you must look like Jack Nicholson.
Thanks for standing on that wall.
Don, I’m thinking you look like poodle. And, like Goldy, thanks for your military service. [hehe] JCH [LT, USN 76-84]
You’re welcome. I do sort of look like him when I put on my “war face.”
(This expression comes from a book that is a personal favorite of mine called “Management According to Patton” or something like that. Although Gen. Patton is usually associated with his famous “blood and guts” image, he was a very smart man and an effective manager who got things done. He treated his subordinates well, never violated the chain of command, and his management style was infused with common sense.
Here is my favorite story from the book. Patton needed to fill a captain slot by promoting a lieutenant, so he took all the lieutenants behind an abandoned warehouse, gave them picks and shovels, and told them to dig a hole 40 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 1 foot deep. Patton then went inside the warehouse and spied on them through a knothole. Most of the lieutenants stood around wondering what their colonel was going to do with a 1-foot deep hole, but one of them said, “Who cares? Let’s just dig the damn thing and get out of here.” That’s the one Patton promoted.)
#47 is for Aaron, but it’s for you, too JCH. Thank you for your service and welcome home, JCH, even if you otherwise are a useless troll.
DON……I just reviewd my copies of PATTON PAPERS, VOL 1 and II. I figure your management style is closer to Hillary’s.
Don @44
“On the other hand, if you don’t remove posts intended to be disruptive, you must expect that your web site will be disrupted and eventually the people genuinely interested in debating issues will leave and go somewhere else where they are not being constantly shouted off the board by a couple of disruptive individuals.”
I understand Goldy’s reluctance to ban, but your bottom-line summation is getting very close to reality, from my perspective. The constant barrage of harassing statements without any purpose is difficult to simply ignore.
Okay. Let’s hear it!! One loud, “Goldy for Mayor”!!! Everybody, all at once now, Honk Your Horn!!!
Don @ 44
“eventually the people genuinely interested in debating issues will leave and go somewhere else”
I think that occasional “zingers” — especially ones that are creative and on topic — are totally appropriate. But when one is engaged in thoughtful debate, calling someone a G-O-Peepee-head or a Dummycrap just lowers the level of discourse.
But when one scans down the comment threads and only every fifth post is vaguely related to the topic (or a reasonable branch thereof), it just makes you want to stop reading.
Goldy, there has to be a good way to ban the totally irrelevant garbage without suppressing free speech. Is there any way to put posters on “probation” that would hold their posts until you review them first?
Hey I’m new to posting to the blog, but I think Goldy would be a great mayor!
Mark @ 52
Nearly all message boards I’ve used are moderated, and the moderators delete posts that are off topic, vulgar, abusive, libelous, or violate the site’s posting rules. An example of this is people who use message boards to get free advertising for their products or services. Who wants to read a board that consists of nothing but ads, or is littered with trash?
Invariably, a site users demand some restrictions and applaud their enforcement, because troll posting undermines the board’s utility to its users.
A blog operator has to be a traffic cop, whether he likes it or not, because if he doesn’t control the traffic it will come to a standstill.
Consider the possibility that a given troll may be a paid professionals whose job is to disrupt targeted web sites. I don’t know this for sure, and certainly can’t prove it, but it looks suspicious when the same poster floods a board with provocative messages around the clock. Very few individuals are inclined or able to do that, but a boiler room can. The right wing spends billions on propaganda and has been known to use dirty tricks in political campaigns, so why wouldn’t they also organize operations and hire crews to disrupt opposition web sites? It’s easy to do and is low cost, and the importance of the internet as a means of communication is certainly understood by the right wing’s propagandists and strategists.
Don@44. I am glad you posted how you felt about the crappers. I have enjoyed your postings. There are others who I enjoy equally. Good debate is good. Bad debate comes from angry ignoramouses whose lowlife mentality level is static. Personal mocking, slamming and throw out gutteral utterings fit only for the pigs they are does not make for good decent debate. Freedom of speech is not the right some think it is.
Don @ 54
“The right wing spends billions on propaganda and has been known to use dirty tricks in political campaigns, so why wouldn’t they also organize operations and hire crews to disrupt opposition web sites?”
C’mon, Don. You know that the above is true for BOTH sides. I don’t have a specific example off the top of my head, but I seem to recall semi-organized efforts by left wing crackers (malevolent hackers) to disrupt and/or deface GOP websites during the 2004 campaign.
Mark @ 56
It’s ludicrous for you to attempt to equate the left’s generally ineffectual complaining about Bush’s policies with the smears, media blitzes, and incessant propaganda drumbeat emanating from the right-wing’s vast “noise machine.” For every think tank, pundit, columnist, talk show, or blog on our side — they have 10 or 20. There is no Richard Mellon Scaife on the left funding hate campaigns against opposition politicians. There is no one on the left concocting phony Jane Fonda photos, “Troopergate” stories, and “Kerry intern” smears. The Far Right has a well organized and well funded smear machine, the left doesn’t. The right routinely uses those tactics, the left doesn’t. There is no comparison. And no, I haven’t heard of any hacking attacks on GOP web sites, maybe because I don’t venture into the right-wing “blogosphere” but I certainly wouldn’t believe anything to that effect posted in that realm or circulated by someone like Drudge.
Goldy @ 26
Don @ 44
I agree. Although I’ve had run-ins with Don which made my blood boil, he eventually cools down and makes some good points now and then.
Both sides need to be moderated when Goldy’s site is turned into a spittoon by a (usually) pointless argument between a few posters that degenerates into blabber. Such as the argument Don is (re)starting in #57 with a ridiculous contention that the Democrats are so squeaky clean compared to the Republicans when it comes to propaganda, smear jobs, etc. Don, didn’t we just have that argument a few days ago?
58 @ zip
Is there a specific accusation you wish to make against the Democrats, or for that matter, any outside-the-mainstream-Democrats progressive group? Leave the WTO anarchists out of this, and also groups like ELF, because they’re neither liberals nor Democrats, they’re domestic terrorists operating entirely outside conventional politics.
Write your complaint here –> [ ] ha ha
(just kidding)
Don @ 57
“It’s ludicrous for you to attempt to equate the left’s generally ineffectual complaining about Bush’s policies with the smears, media blitzes, and incessant propaganda drumbeat emanating from the right-wing’s vast “noise machine.””
Dems just do play their propaganda drumbeat differently. They create (sometimes obscene) T-shirts, bumper stickers, signs, etc. with which they plaster the world. They hold incessant protests and “vigils” — sometimes legally, sometimes not.
“There is no Richard Mellon Scaife on the left funding hate campaigns against opposition politicians.
George Soros & MoveOn.org. ’nuff said.
“There is no one on the left concocting phony… smears.”
Not only does the left concoct smears, they sometimes even get left-inclined members of the media to buy off on it. Rathergate is just the most blatant example.
“The Far Right has a well organized and well funded smear machine, the left doesn’t. The right routinely uses those tactics, the left doesn’t.”
Again, what is MoveOn.org? Did you see some of their ads?
“And no, I haven’t heard of any hacking attacks on GOP web sites, maybe because I don’t venture into the right-wing “blogosphere” but I certainly wouldn’t believe anything to that effect posted in that realm or circulated by someone like Drudge.”
I don’t have a quick link to the pre-election hacks, but here is one about some January attacks from a source you’d surely trust:
Republican Sites Hacked
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/19/10260/4474
Don @ 57
Here is a link from Wired.com about some of the pre-election hack (plans): http://www.wired.com/news/poli.....tw=rss.POL
And let’s not forget all of the vandalism and break-ins at Republican offices thoughout the country — Bellevue, NC, PA, NY and so on.
Please do not try to Ghandi-ize the Left. NEITHER side can claim moral high ground in the dirty tricks department.
Rathergate is a smear? How do you smear someone with the truth? The facts are unassailable–Bush was inexplicably, inexcusably, indisputably insufficient in fulfilling his obligation to the TNG. The Air Force’s own documents prove it–they certainly don’t need Dan Rather.
Is all this chatter material to be used to get Goldy to run for Mayor? (insert lame get this back on topic smilie thingie)
It appears Goldy has taken the justified complaints to heart and done something with the only true (at the moment) disruptive for the sake of disrupting voice. So that’s solved for the moment.
To the left -v- right noise machine, I agree with both sides. The right is a lot more sophisticated at talk radio than the left, so they overtly hold the upper hand. But I’ve seen many a site with left wing JCHers doing their share of noise.
From the middle, the right seems more base in their attacks than the left, but the left is making strides to sink to that level quickly. Maybe both extremes will hit the infamous bottom and we can then all take it upon ourselves to reelevate our discourse to at the minimum civil.
Rove is a man who’s actions I detest. Until the left matches him, they are winning the race to the bottom.
Now who’s making placards for Goldy’s first rally? ;0
Mark @ 61
“Dems just do play their propaganda drumbeat differently. They create (sometimes obscene) T-shirts, bumper stickers, signs, etc. with which they plaster the world. They hold incessant protests and ‘vigils’ – sometimes legally, sometimes not.”
1. So your answer is to equate a t-shirt with the “F” word with smear campaigns, manufactured lies about political candidates, and character assassination?
2. Much to the chagrin of right wingers, protesting is still legal in this country.
3. Case # 1: I recently walked around Green Lake holding a candle to protest American combat deaths in Iraq. Do you have a problem with that?
4. Case #2: The AFL-CIO participated in the WTO demonstration and, guess what, they had a parade permit and were in the street legally.
5. Case #3: I recently walked from Seattle Center to Westlake Center and back, on the sidewalk part of the way and in the street part of the way, as a participant in the annual Northwest Aids Walk. As a matter of fact, for part of the distance, I was walking right next to Rep. Jim McDermott. And, guess what, the N.W. Aids Walk had a parade permit and we were in the street legally. Do you have a problem with (a) the Aids Walk, (b) my walking in proximity to Rep. McDermott (which, FYI, does not constitute an endorsement of his views by me)?
6. I reiterate, the handful of troublemakers at WTO who fought police and broke windows — 20 or so individuals — were members of an organized group of anarchists (interesting contradiction there) who had NOTHING to do with the Democratic Party.
“George Soros & MoveOn.org. ’nuff said.”
Yeah, I figured you responding by mentioning Soros. It’s a laughable comparison. Yes, Soros is a billionaire, and the similarity ends.
Apart from the fact Scaife’s political spending dwarfs Soros’ (hundreds of millions vs. tens of millions), Soros’ money was used for grass-roots organizing and GOTV activities. Perhaps some of it went for campaign ads, like the $250 I gave to Kerry-Edwards — at least I hope that’s what they spent my money on, because that’s what I gave it to them for.
Scaife bankrolled a years-long smear campaign against Clinton that included “Troopergate” and numerous other false accusations. Scaife is in the business of purchasing character assassination and dirty tricks. It was Scaife money that secretly paid Ann Coulter for her behind-the-scenes legal work for Paula Jones — work intended not to benefit her client, Jones, but to discredit Clinton — which of course raises ethical issues about Coulter’s behavior as a lawyer. David Brooks, in his right-wing propagandist life stage, was paid a six-figure salary with Scaife money to manufacture lies about Clinton (Brooks was a principal author of the Arkansas trooper fable and a number of other Clinton smears). There is much more I could say about Scaife but I’ll summarize: George Soros is not Richard Mellon Scaife. A Girl Scout selling cookies and a crack dealer are both peddlers, but there’s a qualitative difference between them, and there’s a qualitative difference between Soros and Scaife in the same sense. For those who want to know more about Scaife see: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS.....e.profile/
“Not only does the left concoct smears, they sometimes even get left-inclined members of the media to buy off on it. Rathergate is just the most blatant example.”
This is a valid complaint to a point. Yes, someone with malevolent feelings toward Bush did forge documents and put them in circulation for the purpose of damaging Bush’s electoral prospects. In no way do I defend this person’s actions; they are reprehensible. However — and this should not be taken as a defense of this action — this appears to have been the work of a rogue individual, not of an organized propaganda network abetted and encouraged by a major political party. There is no evidence of any Kerry-Edwards campaign organization or Democratic Party involvement in this caper, whereas the Swift Boat smear campaign was carried out by veteran GOP operatives with close ties to the Texas GOP and the White House. And there are legitimate questions about Bush’s National Guard service; the phony document, although a forgery, may have represented the actual facts about Bush’s military service accurately. Let me be clear, though that none of this justifies phonying up documents or evidence, and I condemn it.
“Again, what is MoveOn.org? Did you see some of their ads?”
They took some license with facts but in my opinion were within the bounds of typical campaign rhetoric. That’s not what I’m talking about. I was referring to smear campaigns and character assassination, such as the Swift Boat lies about Kerry’s military service, and the vitriolic character attacks against Cleland and McCain. Yes, some harsh things were said about Bush, but nobody manufactured a phony photo of him with Jane Fonda on a computer or disseminated a story that Bush had an affair with a journalism intern, as the right did to Kerry. There are dissembling politicians and there is heated campaign rhetoric on both sides, but the right-wing smear campaigns are unique in American politics.
“And no, I haven’t heard of any hacking attacks on GOP web sites, maybe because I don’t venture into the right-wing “blogosphere” but I certainly wouldn’t believe anything to that effect posted in that realm or circulated by someone like Drudge.”
“I don’t have a quick link to the pre-election hacks, but here is one about some January attacks from a source you’d surely trust:
Republican Sites Hacked
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/19/10260/4474”
I don’t read Kos. It looks like a nut site to me, and the story looks like a spoof, but maybe it’s not. Although you have to wonder about the reliability of something authored by someone named “Jimmy Crackcorn.” Maybe there are people out there doing that. They look like leftnut extremists to me, certainly not Democrats or liberals.
I don’t
TJ @ 63
Is that the only thing you’re responding to? Are you therefore admitting the rest of my comments? I hope you don’t bail out on this thread like you did on the one where I asked you to cite specific examples of mainstream GOP planks and positions that are specifically anti-minority.
Don @ 65
The “Internet Liberation Front” hack stories weren’t just on the KOS site. I used that site because all you Lefties seem to worship at his altar.
Did you read the Wired.com story?
T-shirts, signs and protests are (usually) legal and you have every right to them. You implied that the Right uniquely had a “noise machine.” That simply isn’t true. In fact, the Left has had a LONG history of “if you say it long enough and loud enough” campaigns.
You also totally ignored my reference to all the GOP office vandalism throughout the country.
My point isn’t to say that the Far Right is innocent. BOTH parties play their share of dirty tricks. Admit it and we can let the issue drop.
Mark @ 67
“I used that site because all you Lefties seem to worship at his altar.”
That’s quite a generalization, don’t you think?
Mark, what’s your point about the GOP office vandalism? Has anyone been caught? Exactly who are you accusing anyway? And what assurance can you offer that they didn’t do it themselves?
GDavis, I was thinking of how to make this happen successfully. I don’t know how much money it takes to run a Mayor’s race in Seattle. Goldy could do it for 1/3 and be successful. How many are running against him?
If we can’t get the numbers, we need to outhustle and outthink the other candidates. How does Goldy get along with KVI and Carlson and Wilbur? Dave Ross?
It’ll be a lot of hard work, but Goldy needs to get his bloggers in one place to come up with a strategy and give out work assignments. There may be a problem there. bloggers in one room and have a meeting? Wouldn’t that be like a near riot? Maybe he should do a Howard Dean and get a ton of $10 mastercard donations?
BTW, everyone was honking for Goldy on the way home or maybe it was my sign- REVOTE?
mark @ 67 you said My point isn’t to say that the Far Right is innocent. Are you blind, or just 100% nearsighted?
Sorry mark, in my ‘fury; I read your comment to be ‘is’, 1000 apologies…..really…
LOL@me, I am geting a little cynical…but never the idiot…..
Don @ 69
“Mark, what’s your point about the GOP office vandalism? Has anyone been caught?
Actually, yes. Below are just two of the stories. The first is easiest to find because they were recently charged for their November activities. The second is a story about some warm, fuzzy and friendly AFL-CIO thugs & a “coordinated protest”:
(AP) “Democratic campaign workers dressed in black were slashing tires on the GOP vans, …a felony… The defendants include Sowande Omokunde, 25, the son of first-term U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore, D-Wis., and Michael Pratt, 32, the son of former Milwaukee acting mayor Marvin Pratt.”
Protestors Ransack Bush/Cheney HQ…
http://www.local6.com/politics/3785861/detail.html
“Exactly who are you accusing anyway?”
In all of the cases where someone hasn’t been caught… you! ;)
“And what assurance can you offer that they didn’t do it themselves?”
Don, I think that is your “inner attorney” talking.
And you’re saying this is good, solid campaign advertising?
news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/10/08_zdechlikm_527startups/
Don, you can’t be so gullible as to think that the Dems are without sin.
mark @ 66
yes–that’s really the only thing that seemed to require response. Simply naming MoveOn and Soros without any examples, doesn’t really make a case for anything.
I don’t think the point is that the Democrats are without sin–it’s that the Republicans are much more organized, much more pernicious, much dirtier, and much more shameless in their efforts.
swatter, I saw you and honked…it was your wallet sitting on the roof of your car that made me do it! ;0
I’ll be at the meeting called…look for the Parrot Head shirt wrapped around an old body!
Mark…I doubt you’ll get anyone to deny there are loonies on all sides of the political spectrum. I would hope, however, that you would be willing to concede that Rove and gang have taken some of their tactics to a new low making many bitter against all of their label.
The Dems aren’t as *good* as he is.
Karl Rove is Satan, he shot Lincoln, planted the blue dress, killed Kennedy (the grassy knoll shooter of course), ordered the Lybia Bombing, orchestrated the 9/11 hijackings so we could invade Iraq, started the Korean war, runs the world from his bunker and eats Democrat children in satanic rituals every night. Really.
GD @ 77
“I doubt you’ll get anyone to deny there are loonies on all sides of the political spectrum.”
Don seems to be in denial (or is that Donial? ;) ) about the Dems.
av @ 78
I wouldn’t put any of that past him.
Goldy –
For your victory/concession speech (I think either way would be a victory), I suggest this line:
“S’cuse me while I whip this out!”…Sheriff Bart, ‘Blazing Saddles’ 1974
No reason other than it is Mel Brooks at his funniest…
Marks @81,
Blazing Saddles may be his funniest, but I’ve always thought The Producers was his best.
Speeking of victory speeches, funny story….
While it was always a long shot to get on the ballot, we gathered almost 60,000 signatures for the Horse’s Ass initiative before the Attorney General shut us down and I ran out of free lawyering. (Yes, that’s right… Gregoire’s office sued to have my initiative ruled “outside the scope” of the initiative process.)
But if we had won our court case, and qualified for the ballot, I’m absolutely convinced we would have won at the polls. And the punchline to the entire joke initiative was going to be, that on election night, in front of the cameras, I was going to announce that the next day we would file suit to challenge the constitutionality of the initiative… forcing the Attorney General to defend it!
Man that would have been fun.
OMG – Goldy!
I need to rent that this weekend…
Did you know they are doing a remake set for release in Dec of this year? Matthew Broderick and Uma Thurman, among others. I hope it is close to the original…
Anyway, I am sure you would have put your initiative to rest in such a spectacular manner, and, man, that would have been funny!
angryvoter @78 – Totally hilarious.
Marks @83,
The new movie is actually based on the Broadway musical, which I was fortunate to see with the original cast. The funniest musical I have ever seen. Not the best… but definitely the funniest.
If you rent The Producers, be prepared… it’s not your typical Mel Brookes parody. But Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder are just brilliant playing off of each other.
Goldy –
Just finished the movie. I couldn’t remember if I had seen it before (I did not, unless Alzheimer’s is kicking in on me already).
One scene reminded me of this forum (not a slam, just a visualization of some of our worst moments). It was the ‘Hitler casting call’ where at the beginning of the scene there was a cacophony of “Heil Hitler’s” in a discordant melee, until the director quashed it by segregating the singing Hitler’s from the dancing Hitler’s. I would rather not go further in dissecting such a comparison, but you may feel so inclined!
It was not Brooks in the sense of his subsequent films perhaps, but all the humor, subtle and overt, was classic Mel. You are more than correct on Zero and Gene. I would add that they don’t make movies like they used to (is that good or bad? Probably both)…
Thanks for the recommendation. It was well worth it…