Some Congressional Democrats are fretting over sliding poll numbers for health care reform, with some opinion surveys showing support falling from the 60-percent range to somewhere in the 40’s over the past couple months. To which I say, fuck public opinion. I mean, really… fuck it.
Honestly, why should Congress pay any closer attention to today’s numbers than they did to those before all the lies about death panels and socialized medicine from hopped up, orchestrated mobs of armed teabaggers started spreading fear and doubt? In fact, why should Congress pay much attention to the poll numbers at all?
The is a republic, goddamnit, where we don’t pass legislation by plebiscite, and where our representatives’ job is to do the right thing not do the thing they think might be most popular with voters at this particular point in time. The majority of Democrats understand that meaningful health care reform is absolutely critical to our nation’s future prosperity and economic security, so they should just caucus amongst themselves, put together the best package possible, and then use any means possible to enforce the party discipline necessary to get the damn thing passed.
That’s leadership.
As for public opinion, I’d worry more about what voters have to say about the reforms after they’re passed and implemented rather than the voluble opinions blowing around the eye of our current bullshit storm. And I’d worry a helluva lot more about public opinion should the Democrats fail to fulfill their campaign promise of passing a substantive package.
Why is this so hard for the Democratic leadership to understand.
THIS is the job they were hired to do. Do the tough job. Put the needs of the country first. Write a chapter in the NEW “Profiles in Courage”. Fix health care and the financial system…business as usual is not going to cut it.
Great post Goldy.
AMEN!!!
As a Democrat, I say thank for standing up for the notion that we are a republic (small ‘r’). The whole purpose of a republican form of government is to mitigate the tyranny of the majority and provide a means of thoughtful decision making that can consider more than simply the passions of the mob at a particular moment in time.
Unfortunately for us, republics function most effectively when strong leaders contest with one another to thrash out effective policies. Unfortunately, the spineless milquetoasts and kleptocrats (of both parties) we’ve elected are ill-equipped to do this.
The REAL reasons healthcare costs are high:
-Third party payees
-Gov’t mandates
-Frivolous lawsuits and outragious judgments.
-Those who get services without paying a dime
-TOO MANY who feel they should get healtcare but not pay.
All the rest is agenda driven tripe.
Please Harry Land Deal Reid… call for that reconciliation vote. If that won’t work go nuclear option. Do something Harry.
Goldy and his NortWest Division of Lunatic Moonbat Libtardos are becoming more frenetic every day. It’s scary when a libtardo becomes more frenzied than before!
Now Harry Now!
That’s complete crap. You’re so full of shit your ears stink.
@3 Bullshit. Your comment demonstrates how ill-informed you are. Reasons for rising healthcare costs include:
1) An aging population;
2) Improvements in medical technology;
3) Expensive new treatments for formerly untreatable illnesses;
4) A hugely expensive insurance industry bureaucracy; and
5) Neglect of preventive care in our health care system.
Some of these factors are unavoidable. Some costs could be managed by rationing expensive treatments although it’s highly questionable whether we as a society are willing to do that. Saving money by emphasizing preventive care is something we can and should do a better job of. Redirecting money from the insurance industry to a more efficient payment system is also something we’d be foolish not to do.
@4 “Goldy and his NortWest Division of Lunatic Moonbat Libtardos are becoming more frenetic every day.”
Not you, puddlehead. Your garbled insanity is cloyingly the same day after day.
if the only reform which can pass helps those with pre-existing conditions, I’ll take it
26 years ago my son was born with a heart defect; it was repaired
his health insurance eligibility is great as long as he doesn’t go to the doctor….
George W. Bush’s best strength was ignoring public opinion and doing what he thought was right. His greatest weakness was that he was almost always wrong about what is right.
@6…
We can increase your list ad infinitum but the insane and immoral profiteering by the pharmaceutical industry would be a strong addition.
re 3: “-Third party payees
-Gov’t mandates
-Frivolous lawsuits and outragious judgments.
-Those who get services without paying a dime
-TOO MANY who feel they should get healtcare but not pay.”
All of the points you list are easy to understand Republican ‘cookie-cutter’ talking points — totally without merit.
For starters, how do the ‘feelings’ of those who want free healthcare affect costs?
We all understand why Republicans are so afraid of the public option. Private health insurance is such a bad deal for consumers that nearly everyone will enroll in the public option. We then will have de facto single-payer.
1994.
@10 Actually, I think Big Pharma gets a bad rap on the “profiteering” charge. The drug companies don’t make huge profits in relation to their invested capital. Their return on shareholder equity is in the ballpark of what average corporations earn.
Yes, they make a lot of money from their high-priced patent drugs, and no, they don’t plow it back into R & D. The pharmaceutical industry spends almost nothing on basic research (which is funded mostly by government and universities) and relatively little on in-house R & D, typically about 6% to 8% of revenues.
So where does Big Pharma’s revenue go? To marketing. The average brand-name drug company spends in excess of 50% of its total revenue stream on marketing. It goes for all those TV ads and glossy multi-page magazine spreads that are designed to motivate us to ask our doctors to prescribe medications for us that we didn’t know we wanted until the drug companies, at great expense, convinced us that we want them.
FYI, here’s the Pollster.com trend graphic for “some opinion surveys” (incl. 10 surveys by 8 organizations in August).
@6
Preventive care won’t entail savings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....tml?sub=AR
Pelletizer@14, trying to explain something to the clusterfucked cinderblock@10 is like hitting your head on concrete. The concrete has no response and your leetle bunny head will hurt.
BTW @7 really pithy. At least you know you are a member of the NortWest Division of Lunatic Moonbat Libtardos.
@11 “For starters, how do the ‘feelings’ of those who want free healthcare affect costs?”
Wingnuts who think they know something about economics (although their opinion of how much they know about it is usually inflated) but who never heard of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs are fond of arguing that offering something for free creates unlimited demand for it.
In these comment threads, this argument has been applied to hip replacements.
Economics is an inexact science that attempts to explain human behavior, and sometimes — with considerably less accuracy — attempts to predict human behavior. Economists trade in generalizations, and economic bromides therefore are subject to the limitations applicable to all generalizations. As always, the devil is in the details.
Food is not like other economic goods in that it is a necessity for survival, and therefore demand for it is inflexible and exists regardless of ability to pay. People who can’t pay for food will steal it, kill for it, or do whatever they must to get it — and if they still can’t get it, they’ll die.
Medical care is not quite in the same category as food, but it too is an economic good whose demand is driven to a substantial degree by compulsion that exists independently of ability or willingness to pay. If you are sick or in pain, you want relief, and will seek medical care regardless of your ability to pay. See doctor now, worry later about how or whether you’ll pay for it, that’s how it works.
The notion that making hip replacements “free” by transferring their cost to third parties (e.g., government or insurance companies) will increase demand for them is just plain stupid. Who in their right mind would replace a healthy hip with a mechanical one? Who would suffer the pain and risk of complications from a hip replacement if they didn’t need one? There’s nothing pleasant about the procedure, and people undergo hip replacements because the alternative of not having it is worse. All of the economic demand for hip replacements — in every single case — is created by medical necessity, not by the workings of the demand-price curve.
This is a perfect example of the maxim that a little information in the wrong hands is more dangerous than no information at all. Some of our rightwing friends may have taken an introductory college course in basic economics or maybe at some point in their lives read a Wikipedia article about supply-and-demand, and think that simple formula explains all of life’s mysteries, or at least those that aren’t explained in the six paragraphs of the Old Testament that they’ve actually read (as opposed to hearsay). And then they use that little bit of information to come up with idiotic conclusions such as, “If the government pays for hip replacements, demand for hip replacements will go through the roof.”
You can’t debate people like that, because they’re unwilling to listen, and are incapable of learning anything. The best thing to do with people who think they have all the answers is to put them on a deserted island and let them set up their own government there and live the way they want. And make sure they don’t have any boats so they don’t come flocking back to the mainland when their socioeconomic ideology collapses on their heads.
@13 2008.
@13 (continued) You guys are yearning for 1994 now? Well, that’s progress. Last I heard, you all wanted to live in 1894.
@17 See #18. That one was written especially for you.
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the [public] is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country”–Ed Bernays
Roger Rabbit, #6: actually, I would say the central reason is that there are no financial incentives in the health care system for keeping people healthy, and huge incentives to maintain people with expensive treatments for chronic illness. To some extent we are trying to cure old age, and that’s a losing battle, but there is much money to be made from fighting it.
Pelletizer@21, I work hard for my scratch. Never looked for a handout. Even when my father was locked out of his company when Puddy was in junior high school due to a union disagreement with the company (eventually they went on strike) we didn’t have our hand out. That taught Puddy a lot about life seeing how my mom and dad reacted to the situation. Yep we were dirt poor and Puddy vowed never to be in that position again. Puddy has his own self-fulfillment and achievement and Puddy didn’t need to guvmint to acquire them or tell me Puddy has reached his pinnacle. That’s your side of the political spectrum. You can’t achieve unless the guvmint makes it happen for you. It’s your side of the political spectrum that is positionally inflexible. You can’t see it because you are so blinded by your whack-job left-wing libtardo ideology. Puddy grew up in that environment and Puddy left that reservation long ago. So you can blather on about Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs because when you look at it you are another Pavlov’s little doggies.
Now bark to the latest commands of “the messiah”. Sit UBU sit good doggie.
I guess “pithy” is puddingbrain’s new word of the day.
From http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/8/26/131840/361
I think the Senate Democrats have already caucused, and what they’ve agreed on is foul. And now they’re using public opinion as a justification, or an excuse to continue the current situation.
8 of 10 Americans disagree with the puddlepuss.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/8/26/131840/361
What a shock.
Another thing the wingnuts do is conflate auto insurance with medical coverage.
Where do I go to get a ‘loaner’ body while my broken leg is being repaired?
This is why Puddy calls rujax a clusterfucked cinderblock. This moron has no memory whatsoever. Puddy guesses those thumb up the ASS treatments aren’t stimulating his single femtometer sized brain cell in his ASS. At least spongebob wondermoron can find something from Daily Kooks and display it.
Goldy you need better libtardos.
@ 3. Sam Adams
??? Do you mean employer paid health insurance YEH!! That is why we need a government option.
Some truth here bUT is single payer systems, with lots more of these care is better and costs are 25% to 50% of ours.
Some truth here too, but the maximum estimate of this effect is ~ 1%
Yep and that is because under our current mess we require hospitals to care for the acutely ill and for kids but do not reimburse those costs. Either you wanna turn kids and accident victims out in the cold or we need a way to ay these costs rather than cost shift.
Really???? Who are these foks???
How about some real reasons:
1. our system is NOT an open market, there are no incentives to contain costs.
2. In many parts of the US we have monopolies.
3. admin costs for PRIVATE healthcare now cost about 1/3 of each health dollar.
4. we subsidize the whole world by overpaying for drugs.
5. We pay for naturopathy, health food craves, plastic surgery, etc.
6, we are compassionate toward the dieing and pay a lot of money to extend this part of life by weeks or months.
6. We indenture med students to a tune of over 200,000.
7. we do a terrible job with preventive pediatric care.
add in the litigation issue and unfunded govt mandate AND tell us how you would fix these while saving money.
OK Mr,. named after-a-second-rate-beer, this is a pretty balanced view . I have included some of your own gripes. .. you tell us how to fix it?
The public’s opinion concerning healthcare reform is truly irrelevant at this time. We know that those who oppose such reform are incapable of responsible policymaking. The tactics the opposition is using to fight reform are childish, if not flatly immoral. The Democratic leadership has to stand fast and do what is right for the country.
30. SJ Translates Puddy
clusterfucked cinderblock. penis caught in concrete?
thumb up the ASS treatments a feat that apparently Puddy thinks demonstrates dexterity.
femtometer measures femtoes .. the small toe on the outside a a woman’s feat.
Just trying to help.
@23 Raven
Sorry you have this upside down. preventive care is the sae as chronic Rx and actually INCREASES net costs in adults.
Here is an opinion on public opinion.
That’s kind of the political calculus of this. The Republicans want this to fail, because otherwise it might become another beloved program THEY have to turn around and kiss ass to for their survival. Just like Republicans fought social security and Medicare, and tried to stop them from coming into being at all. And now THEY have to kiss ass and promise to protect those programs less they risk the wraith of the AARP and the over 55 crowd (a lot of the regular voters).
So if this passes, look for Republicans to start taking CREDIT for it in about 5 to 10 years and claiming THEY’LL protect it from the evil Democrats who secretly want to cut the public insurance option. I’ll be sitting my rocking chair laughing my ass off…
More SH providing Puddy translation
“Lunatic Moonbat” This is very confusing … usually luna refers to the earths moon. So this must mean bats on the earth’s moon as opposed to whatever winfed ceeature is on moons around other planets.
“Harry Land Deal Reid” refers to the fact that Senator Reid has participated in legal deals , making money the old fashioned way. Presumably a term of approval from a Reprican?
SJ @ 31 and 35
Thank you for translating the Puddyese. Of course, understanding the terms he uses doesn’t do much to make his arguments comprehensible, but overcoming the language barrier at least helps clarify how fringy he actually is.
You are welcome.
My hunch is that there is actually some message hidden in that sort of verbiage.
I wonder if Google has a translater for trashtalk?
From one of Stupes’ favorite Murdoch publications:
Please note that this is from the newsroom, NOT the right wing bullshit opinion page.
Wingnuts in the know must have a pool going on how quick Murdoch “downsizes” this journo out of the newsroom.
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....#printMode
So, Goldy, the mask slips and you are revealed as a fucking statist who disdains the voting public. What fucking part of the words “republic” and “democracy do you not understand? We,the People, don’t really want your totalitarian brand of bullshit.
SJS, #32: what is called “preventive care” is mostly preventing catastrophic infections and managing major chronic illnesses like high blood pressure and diabetes. A concentration on keeping people healthy would do more and different things, and unless it is funded, we won’t know what many of those are or what the cost would be. It might be less or more. Regardless of cost, however, we’d be healthier, and surely that’s the point.
Puddybud, #24: “we were dirt poor and Puddy vowed never to be in that position again.”
I think this is your bottom line, really. Do you have a family? Or is it just you, looking out for your own interests?
The magic word that turns off the walnut sized brains of Paultards and conservative Republicans who are now too embarrassed to be associated with such a losing crowd of freepers, birthers, deathers and tenthers.
And I bet these folks don’t have health care either:
http://features.csmonitor.com/.....e-is-home/
Reaping the whirlwind of the Bushconomy. Things may turning a little bit to the upside lately but it’ll be a while before these folks have homes again to replace the ones that were foreclosed on them.
I trust they will remember who let this happen to them in 2010.
@40 Raven
Preventive care for children BOTH save money and creates healthier people.
The results in adults are complex because the goal usually is longer life rather than more fit life. The longer we live, the greater cost there is to society.
The issues in adults are whether “preventive” care actually works and if it does is it cost effective.
A lot of what people believe works is not based on hard data. A good deal of the healthy diet stuff is hype, as one example.
Worse, evidence is lacking that the small dollars spent continuously in prevention settings are less expensive than the episodic use of a lot of dollars for intervention.
People need to understand that it is VERY expensive to prove that something like glucose fructose is safer than fructose.
Finally, when such studies are done, they are often presented in aless than honest way. As one example, yesterday I heard that a certain job caused a three fold increase in a form of cancer. What does three fold mean if the actuall numbers were say two folks out of 1000 in one study and six in the other? Any food statistician would explain that, in this case, 2/6 does not equal three but explaining that to the public is impossible.
The saddest part of all this si that some of Remanat Republican chgarges are based on fact. We WILL have to ration care if we wnat to cut costs! For most of us, that rationing is already here. The goal of Obamacare is to minimize the need for rationing.
I suspect that even lunatic, cinder block fucking, ass licking bat cave Reprican can figger this out ..when he is nti trying to decode Beck.
@30 John425
If oyu need help defining terms and the Wki can not help you, I am sure many of us would be happy to tell you the meaning of such long words as “democracy” and “republic.”
Just ask!
Here is a hint …
the US is a republic. The founders very much worried about the sort of mob rule that destroyed democracy in France and Germany. You know .. the kind of mob rule pushed by radicals like the weathermen and the birthers? So they chose to elect representives. It has worked pretty well except when it has been perverted by foks like the one you defend,
Obviously Goldy senses that the Liberal agenda is failing. “Fuck public opinion”?
To steal a phrase,
“Shit son, liberals don’t take a dump without knowing public opinion”!
HR3200 is dead in it’s current form.
There is no way that Nancy Pelosi and the liberals slam this thru…Why? Public opinion…
SJ’s sockpuppet, #40: well, yes, I know that most health claims about food are inflated (and, for first world mothers, so are the claims about breast-feeding.) On the other hand, there’s little doubt that as a people we have an obesity problem that causes other problems, and the salt and sugar content of our diets directly feeds that. Agribusiness is fattening you up for us corvids.
I don’t know that we will have to “ration” care to contain costs, and neither do you; there are a lot of things we haven’t tried yet, and won’t if there aren’t some incentives to do things differently.
Oh.
Yeah man. Wow. He really got me there, didn’t he? Got me good he did. Yessiree Bob. Don’t get got that often but when I get got I get got good.
Boyyyyy Howdeeeeee….
(…fucking imbecile…learned a new word in 2005. Gee, good for him.)
John @41,
No, the mask slips and you are revealed as a fucking idiot. Today’s polls are merely a snapshot in time, and are no more or less relevant than those of six months ago or those six months in the future. By your standard, we should have passed health care reform in the spring, and then repealed it in the fall.
The founders understood the vagaries of public opinion. That’s why they created a national government subordinate to a Constitution that would be well nigh impossible to amend or override without the sustained support of an overwhelming majority of Americans.
Love it or leave it.
50
Man, that’s really humiliating to be got by Puddy. He’s probably so pleased with himself that he’s treating himself to a special afternoon wanking session.
When it’s obvious that public opinion is being swayed by statements that are calculatedly not true (I hate the word “lies”; it’s so harsh…), such as Death Panels, then it is proper and reasonable for public officials to discount that mal-informed opinion — while at the same time doing his/her best to educate the voters about the truth of the matter.
Seriously, when the level of public discourse descends to the level of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck — people who use their voice for entertainment and income, and with no compunction about conveying baldface untruths, then I fear for the future of the republic.
Does Gresham’s law apply to information as well as money? Does bad information drive out the good?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....h7V5lc_xXM
they will get the money to pay the fine from you, through your insurance company, who will raise your rates to cover the fine and their shake-down fee.
Fuck public opinion.
@53, how do you think we ended up in Iraq?
Leadership is disregarding public opinion?
@49 Raven
rationing
Every healthcare system, our included, rations. The only difference is the relative role personal wealth or influence plays and how well the system is set up to deliver different forms of care.
Our current system encourage what might be called no cost limits because someone will pay for almost any procedure. Since resources are finite, the amount of money one can put into this sort of thing does determine what can and can not be done.
As one example, the bizar things MJ had done to himself are available to everyone … if they want to pay for it. A better example may be organ transplants. We regulate that now because it is a limited resource.
Goldy @51:
“Today’s polls are merely a snapshot in time, and are no more or less relevant than those of six months ago or those six months in the future.”
Actually I have to disagree. The current polls ARE more relevant. As more details about what health care reform means are available, the less popular it has become. Six months ago the President and the Democrats were offering vague platitudes of what health care reform would be. Now people have a better idea what reform means, and they don’t seem to like it.
For example, the promise of “If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan”, is not really true. People understand this, and many don’t want to be forced into a government run system.
Real reform is doomed.
Liberal (progressive) posters are in denial: today’s democrats are vastly inferior to previous models and have NO balls. NONE.
A half-assed, fully compromised mess will emerge that the dems will shriek “achieves their goal”.
Then, when the whole system collapses in 5-10 years, the victorious wingnuts will blame the democrats and the wealthy will be living offshore.
re 58: “’If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan’”, is not really true.
People understand this, and many don’t want to be forced into a government run system.”
Could you be more specific? You have a chance to actually make a point if you will provide the correct information. What EXACTLY makes that claim false?
@58
People THINK they have a better idea of what health care reform entails because of a studied pattern of lies and hysteria ( See: death panels, etc ).
Being a geezer (66) I am appalled that so many of my contemporaries are morons and listen to any bullshit that is repeated often enough, and then go to town hall meetings like sheep and humiliate themselves by perpetuating the wingnut lies.
Previously intelligent seniors act as though dementia is a virtue. I am related to some of these cretins. They will reap the rewards of their folly.
I’m moving to Asia. Fuck the wingnuts, they can have what they have created. They deserve it. Bet they buy lots of Enzyte, too.
@23 That’s a factor, but it would be inaccurate to portray that as the sole (or even dominant) factor in rising health care costs. It’s something with substantial cost implications that should be addressed, but it oversimplifies things to suggest it’s a solution in and of itself.
@24 “Pelletizer @21, I work hard for my scratch.”
Goody for you … do you think everyone else doesn’t? So you think you “didn’t need the government,” hmmm, maybe I should post “Joe Republican” again.
CF @ 58
There is simply no way to accurately or reliably measure how the public feels about proposed healthcare legislation. Far too few members of the public are familiar with any specifics of such legislation pending in Congress. The sound and fury we are hearing from the opposition is mainly based on misunderstanding, partisanship, and orchestrated deception. A lawmaker who bases his or her vote on such opposition is not acting responsibly.
Here ya go, puddlehead, this is for you. Read this, then think about whether you can honestly say government never did anything for you.
Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.
All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer’s medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance – now Joe gets it too.
He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.
Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.
He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union.
If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.
Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.
He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers’ Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans.
The house didn’t have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification.
He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to.
Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn’t mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: “We don’t need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I’m a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have.”
Obama Saved The World
I’ve been plowing through stacks of magazines this afternoon — the usual suspects, of course: Business Week, The Economist, Fortune, all the conservative-leaning business-and-economics-oriented stuff — and have come up with a few quotes (as usual, drawing on my favorite conservative-leaning media sources) that refute the wingnut belief system.
Let’s start with the wingnut belief that Obama is evil because he threw money at the banks (never mind that Bush started it):
“Robert Wolf, head of the U.S. arm of Swiss bank UBS, gives the Administration ‘very solid marks’ in managing the stabilization of the banks and the economy. ‘My view is that a severe meltdown would have occurred if not for [their] quick action,’ he says.”
— Business Week, Aug. 10, 2009, p. 038 (brackets in original)
I could come up with dozens of additional quotes from business leaders along the same lines, but this one is succinct and suffices to capture the gist of what they’re all saying: Obama and his team saved the world.
“[Obama] has been curiously ill-served by a press short of useful criticism, with liberal America prepared only to debate what sort of water he walks on best, while conservative radio hosts argue over when exactly he became a communist.”
— The Economist, Aug. 1, 2009, p. 9.
Well, we all know the media sucks. Now we have a conservative (British) newsmagazine saying the (mostly conservative leaning) American media sucks. Maybe the next big breakthrough will be when Frank Blethen says the Seattle Times sucks.
“One prisoner, hooded and bound, was threatened with a pistol and a power-drill. Others had cigarette smoke blown in their faces until they vomited. Another was led to believe that female relatives would be sexually abused in front of him. An interrogator clutched one detainee’s neck so that he repeatedly passed out.”
— The Economist, Aug. 29, 2009, p. 25.
I vividly remember how self-righteous rightwingers mocked our objections to the Bush administration’s torture policies by claiming the only thing they did was tear pages out of the Koran and flush them down the toilet. Even though, we knew this was a lie. Now we can prove it was a lie. The next step is to prosecute the bastards.
@60 I think the larger point, which strangely no one is making, is they won’t be able to keep their current health plans if nothing is done. Insurance that today costs $500 a month is headed for $2,000 a month, and today’s 50 million uninsured is headed for 75 or 100 million uninsured, and many of today’s die-hard reform opponents will become tomorrow’s medical-bankruptcy paupers. The situation is not static, it is rapidly worsening, and keeping the status quo doesn’t mean keeping the health plan they now have but rather means their health coverage along with everyone else’s is going to slide off a cliff.
66
Please don’t confront our trolls with thoughtful comments like those you quote. Our trolls are very fragile and do not do well with any information which might contradict their cherished views. Facts give our trolls really bad cases of gas. I would hope in the future that you show some concern for the well-being of our trolls.
@68 You misapprehend my purpose. I wouldn’t waste a scrap of effort on our uneducable trolls. I’m trying to be a sort of Reader’s Digest for my fellow liberal readers of this blog. By plowing through this stuff and condensing it, I save you the time and trouble of reading it yourself.
@68 The best thing anyone can do for the well-being of our trolls is take them to a medical professional for humane euthanasia like you would a dying dog.*
* heh! Just kidding! Ann Coulter joke. The truth is, as much as I dislike dogs, I find it excruciatingly painful to put a dog under.
@58 . ConservativeFirst spews:
What details are these? Death panels? bankruptm the governement? socialism will end medicare?
The only truth in that syatement is that Obama has chosen not tom hype and to do the Hillary thing.
What!!!????????????
All the plans reinforce our currentr system by REQUIRING that employers keep doing it or pay a penalty! Wi/o that the extent of employer paid heathcare has fallen by about 20% in the last decade,
How does this decrease your choices?
none of the proposals do this.
What is it that chickens say when they are laying eggs??? Beck. Be e e ck. Behhhk. Be e e K …
Oh Proud Leftist#52,
Wanking? Nope you Dope. Don’t need that SeattleJew, GBS, and Cynical can vouch for Mrs Puddy’s natural God-blessed beauty. Maybe it’s you who needs those DVD’s and magazines, eh?
Wow rujax@50, another powerfully inept retort.
You aren’t even a one hit wonder!
Raven, Puddy has a family. Ask your fellow libtardos. Puddy proud of his children and their intelligence. Puddy comes from a very large family. Puddy proud of his siblings and their accomplishments even though most still live on the Dummocraptic reservation.
Pud @various above: As I said @7, befuddled puddlehead, your comments are garbled, insane, and cloyingly the same.
1) Go and listen to Mr Rogers from Mi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc
He pretty much lays it out there. This is a bill not about health reform. Our Health Care is the BEST in the world. this reform should be about 1) tort reform 2) Increase cometition amongst insurance co. 3) Curbing cost (Medicare is billed on average and pays 4 times the cost of an average wheel chair)
I ask you this….Why is it that everything the Dems want to do has a tax attached to it ? I just dont get it….They lead you to the well and you drink.
Cap/Trade = New taxes for ou and I
Health Care = New taxes for you and I
Etc ETc ETc….
They just love your money ! They want to get there hands on as much as your as they can because you are not smart enough to take care of your self or spend you pwn money.
WAKE UP !
Not that you would know anything about that virtue, Goldy. But by all means, it’s worth the price of admission to see this shithole website and the king turd running the asylum whining incessantly knowing instinctively that this bill in any current form is DOA…much like the Democrat party in 2010 and 2012.
Nothing like blowing your load early, Obama. All that foreplay and all America needed was 2 minutes to decide this guy is an amateur in the “empty suit”……..as advertised.
Don’t say we didn’t warn you America!
Pelletizer @ all over
Copying more crap from this site?
Pelletizer@all over
Copying more crap from this site? Thom Hartmann: Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican
Of course without attribution!
@69 I’m trying to be a sort of Reader’s Digest for my fellow liberal readers of this blog. By plowing through this stuff and condensing it
———
Oh, and often not understanding what you’re reading, don’t forget that. Wasn’t it only yesterday that you declared Dems in general and you in particular where fully behind Obama’s Afghan war strategy, only to have it pointed out to you – repeatedly, actually – that Democrats were turning solidly against the war? In fact, liberals in particular are fleeing Obama on this issue – after only a mere eight months, mind you.
Here’s more:
“Congressional Democrats, particularly those on the left, report increasing disenchantment among constituents with the idea of a long and possibly escalating conflict in Afghanistan, especially as the American strategy comes to resemble a long-term nation-building approach rather than a counterterrorism operation.”
However, you DO have allies:
“We agree with President Obama that ‘we have to win’ in Afghanistan and make sure that our commanders on the ground have the troops and resources they need,” the committee chairman, Michael Steele, said in the statement. He urged Mr. Obama to “stand strong and speak out for why we are fighting there,” adding that Mr. Obama has said too little so far “about why the voices of defeat are wrong.”
So there you have it, Roger Rabbit and the GOP!
G.O.P. May Be Vital to Obama on Afghan War
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09.....cy.html?hp
77
Obama has impressed me far beyond my expectations. He is pushing his principles despite political pressures that might persuade weaker presidents to shift gears. You folks on the right, fortunately, have greatly underestimated this president. Why is it among you folks that Bush’s abysmal poll numbers indicated that he was a leader, but Obama’s slightly declining numbers indicate that he needs to change course?
Roger @ 69
Ah, yes. Please accept my thanks. Now, let’s get back to troll bashing . . .
@ 80 ~ Polls show Obama’s fall in poll numbers is the greatest plunge for an American president so early on in his administration. That’s not theory, just fact.
His inexperience and amateurism is only enhanced when trying to speak about healthcare reform (about a bill he’s most likely never read) in a completely incoherent manner before the American people. As I said before, the American public are waking up to the fact that they voted Eddie Haskell into the white house. His disingenuous unctuous persona can only get him so far before he’s spent his political capital and that is what you’re witnessing 3+ years left into his first/final term in office. Them’s just the facts PL.
82
You wouldn’t recognize a fact if it was fucking you in the ass. Look, I’m not going to try to reason with a person like you; it is a simple waste of time. I’m just here to bash people like you, because, ah, it feels good. There are the occasional conservatives who show up here who can engage in reasoned policy debates. I enjoy that. You are not one of those people. The last president could be compared to Eddie Haskell. This one is far too intelligent for that comparison. Don’t try to tell us what the “facts” are. You just italicize your ignorance.
82 – Is that Little Rickie Dumbass hiding in there?
Whoever you are it’s going to be a looooooooong eight years for your sorry DUMB ass.
Liberal translation: You’re right, but I won’t admit it, Damnit!!
Liberal translation: I see the similarities, but I will instead revert back to G.W. Bush somehow. It’s Bush’s fault our current president is an amateur empty suit playin’ president. If you say any different, I’ll just put my fingers in my ear and say “NAHHHHHNAAAAH, I can’t hear you!!”
Don’t worry kiddies. 2010 will be a wake up call and 2012 we officially put the Democrat party and more specifically, the regular posters here at HA on “suicide watch”.
84
I think you might be right. Little Ricky Dumbass really liked to predict electoral results, and he did it with the utmost confidence. He, of course, was wrong, but when did being wrong ever stop a wingie from expressing himself? We’re seeing ESO even predicting electoral results in 2012, which truly marks him a fool, given, um, what we might call the uncertainties that lie between now and then.
@76 “Our Health Care is the BEST in the world.”
Yes and no. We certainly have cutting-edge technologies, equipment, treatments, and surgical procedures. However, this is meaningless to the millions of Americans who don’t have access to this stuff or are denied these advanced treatments by their insurers when they need them.
When you look at the big picture, we’re doing a lousy job of preventive care; our general health and mortality rates are so-so; and many countries — including Third World countries — outrank us in overall quality of care and overall population health, according to objective measures.
“this reform should be about 1) tort reform”
No, it shouldn’t, because legal settlements are not a major factor in the cost of health care, and because patients injured by negligence should not be hung out to dry. If a careless doctor or hospital injures me, why shouldn’t they pay my additional medical bills and compensate me for my loss of income and pain and suffering?
Legal settlements are only a small percentage — around 1% — of what we’re spending on health care. Taking away the patient’s right to compensation for negligent care will have negligible, if any, impact on health care costs. And it will encourage doctors and hospitals to deliver sloppier and more dangerous care by removing the incentive for competence and being careful.
If you really want reforms that will address the soaring cost of health care, you’ll focus on the 25% to 30% of our health care dollars going to insurance companies, who provide no health care and whose only function is to deny claims.
“2) Increase cometition amongst insurance co.”
If you want this, then you’ll support the Democratic legislation, because it addresses this issue at several levels. But the best way of all to increase competition is to have a public option. If consumers had the choice of signing up in the public option, insurance monopolies would either have to compete or get out of the business.
“3) Curbing cost (Medicare is billed on average and pays 4 times the cost of an average wheel chair)”
The biggest problem with Medicare is the number of private health care providers who are stealing from it, and the amounts they’re stealing. We’re overdue for a crackdown on these crooks, including vigorous prosecution and stiff prison sentences.
I doubt that Medicare overpays for wheelchairs. Where did you get that information? Medicare has payment schedules for everything that are notoriously less than generous. As stated above, the real overpayment problem in Medicare is the billions of dollars of fraud perpetrated by private providers.
“I ask you this….Why is it that everything the Dems want to do has a tax attached to it ?”
Maybe because things aren’t free? And here’s another point: If you voted for Bush, then you’re personally responsible for the trillion dollars he spent on his war against Iraq, and the $1.5 trillion spent on bailing out the banks in order to prevent a 1930s-type depression because of his refusal to regulate the financial industry. So, if you’re a Republican, you’re in absolutely no position to complain about spending.
The high cost of health care in the United States and the lack of universal coverage is costing our economy trillions and putting companies out of business. Health care spending that saves the economy more than it costs — which is the objective of the Democratic reforms — is smart investing.
And here’s another point. When Republicans squandered our money on things like no-bid contracts and its totally ineffective program for teaching abstinence to teens (teen pregnancies actually went up under the Bush administration policy), they did it with money borrowed from China, our enemy. How responsible is that? President Obama is saying we should stop borrowing from foreigners and pay as we go.
Finally, this is not a legitimate objection to the public option, because the public option will be self-financing without any taxpayer subsidies.
And last but not least, it will cost you more without these reforms. Rep. Jay Inslee pointed out that everyone who buys health insurance or gets it through his employer is paying a “hidden tax” in his premiums of $1200 to $1300 a year for the uninsured. Most of the uninsured do get medical care; they’re simply not paying for it, and that cost is shifted to the paying customers. And without Obama’s reforms, this “hidden tax” will continue increasing in years ahead as more and more people become uninsured and health care inflation continues unabated.
@77 “this bill in any current form is DOA…much like the Democrat party in 2010 and 2012”
My, you’re an irrational optimist, aren’t you? Sorry bub, there’s going to be health care bill. How can there not be, with a Democratic supermajority in the House and a filibuster-proof Democratic supermajority in the Senate? Polls show the vast majority of voters want health care reform. All your party has offered them is a gun-waving freak show. Do you really think they’re going to vote for you?
@79 Yes, more or less, with a couple of qualifiers. First, it’s not “crap,” it’s an accurate statement of facts. Second, I didn’t copy it from that particular site. “Joe Republican” can be found in lots of places. It so happens I copied it onto my hard drive several years ago and can retrieve it from a Word document. But if you Google “Joe Republican,” you will get a huge number of hits, because as I said, it’s been reproduced in many places and is available from many websites.
However, if you want to try to convince me that you’re entirely self-made; that government never contributed anything to your success in life; then have a go. Seriously. But please don’t waste our time with talking points or cliches; as they say in math class, “show your work.”
@80 Afghanistan is getting attention because the situation has deteriorated there and because the field commander is asking for more troops. So it’s natural that the strategy is being questioned. I don’t see any liberals saying we should give Afghanistan back to the Taliban and al Qaeda. You’re misinterpreting what the criticism coming from the Democratic side is actually saying.
@83 How many presidents aren’t “inexperienced” in their first months in office? There’s no training to be president; they all learn on the job, and they all make mistakes. At least Obama didn’t get buildings blown up and thousands of Americans killed by sleeping through his first 8 months in office, like Bush did.
Um, yeah, hows that “supermajority” working out for you, Rog? Obviously all Democrats aren’t on board (along with the majority of Americans to this current boondoggle of a proposal HR3200) or you’d have gotten the legislation through. As I said, healthcare reform in its current form pushed by the
leadersimbeciles heading up the Democrat party led congress is dead. This is simply a fact of life.@86 You’re far too stupid to realize you aren’t within a million miles of being right.
@93 The simple answer to your stupid screed is that Congress is in recess, so the screamers and gun-wavers are getting all the attention and press right now, but when Congress goes back to work this legislation will move through the legislative process.
Disagreements will be resolved, the separate houses will pass bills, the conference committee will iron out differences between their bills, Congress will pass the finalized bill, and the President will sign it. Over and out.
Sorry to interject a little fact here – for the 18 million of us who purchase own own health insurance privately, this bill will double or triple our direct costs and this has been confirmed by several media outlets and organizations.
I pay $6,000 per year now for my family. Under HR 3200, according to estimates by The Lewin Group, and an ACTUAL quote from the Massachusetts Health Connector, our cost will rise to $16,000 (Lewin) or $17,000 (actual quote). The Los Angeles Times, CNN Money, Factcheck.org, Wall Street Journal and the “internal memo” form WellPoint that has sparked controversy in California, all confirm those purchasing insurance privately will be utterly wiped out by massive cost increases.
The Senate bill ends the declining subsidy at about $65,000 for a family. The consequence is that the 18 million individuals responsibly purchasing and paying all of their own costs today will be financially devastated by HR 3200. There is no tax credit or subsidy.
This is a fact, not a myth. You can verify this yourself if you wish. The Lewin Group and the Congressional Budget Office have estimated that between 12 million and 33 million additional people may end up having to purchase their own insurance privately due to side effects of the bills and their impact on smaller employers. Consequently, this “problem” may impact 20 to 50 million people.
What is your proposed solution to this?
What will the health care bill cost you personally? (Or gain you personally, in $s?)
Ed @96,
Looks like somebody went to troll school, jumping in at the end of a long, winding down thread with so-called irrefutable “facts.” No links, mind you, but lots of numbers and “facts.”
What a load of bullshit.
The Lewin Group is an industry front, and not a credible source on this subject, and even then doesn’t say what you claim it says. So please stop talking out of your ass and pretending its gospel.
Puddybud, #74: “All true wealth is biological.” I’m glad you have a family. You have family regardless of your financial situation. No matter how much or anti-government politicking you undertake you can never protect yourself from poverty. But you have family. Good for you!
As to the political implications of the above–why should policy be made because you–and many other people–want to be assured of their financial security? That’s not something that the absence of government, or the presence of government, can assure. We corvids are very pragmatic birds; you can’t eat chimirae. As if that is not enough, there’s good reason to believe that a well-run health policy will actually save money. You can kinda see that we take a different view of the matter.
The Raven,
You can take steps to keep yourself out of poverty, but Puddy agrees you never know what the future presents. You try to ensure your future is under your control.
Goldy,
Here are the links:
Bill text – go to thomas.loc.gov, enter HR 3200 and click on “Bill Number”. Read Section 122, “Essential Benefits Package” defined. You may also wish to read Section 113, pertaining to the requirement that young people must pay at least half the amount charged to older people (today they pay about 1/10th). My daughter and her husband currently pay $120/month. Under Section 113, that would be required to be much higher due to Section 113 as many older people pay up to about $1,000 per month.
Lewin Group document containing the estimates or family coverage – $12k with “public” option, $16k without:
http://lewin.com/content/publi.....ll2009.pdf
The Lewin Group is a subsidiary of UnitedHealth so this represents what the health insurers believe they will be charging.
An actual quote of approximately $17,000/year was obtained from
https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site/connector/
This is similar to the proposed federal insurance exchange. Massachusetts already has a program similar to HR 3200 in many respects so an actual price quote from there is a useful data point.
Los Angeles Times story:
“Healthcare insurers get upper hand
Obama’s overhaul fight is being won by the industry, experts say. The
end result may be a financial ‘bonanza.’
By Tom Hamburger and Kim Geiger
August 24, 2009” – no link because they moved it into the paywall archive.
Kaiser Family Foundation site – go to
http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm
to compare various proposals.
CNN: “Obamacare could cost you $4,000 a year
If the public insurance option is dropped, that’s likely to leave many employees with a big bill for their coverage. ” (Article compares private purchase of full benefits package today with Section 122. This is not necessarily the same as what individuals are purchasing-hence they come up with only a $4,000 increase for middle class private purchasers. As noted, our premiums are about $500/month or $6,000/year for a family of 4.)
Factcheck.org has numerous articles related to myth checking. In shooting down on advertisement, they acknowledge that for some, health insurance premiums will rise sharply.
My own situation indicates a doubling to tripling (again, based on actual cited references above).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/2.....2009082411
There was also an article in the WSJ but I no longer have the link for that. I am sorry.
The above are actual links to actual facts. How can we solve this problem?
Your thoughts? Try to be polite and constructive.
It seems that I have been blocked from access as my facts disagree with your current world view and my response is not appearing. The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech – not censorship.