I’ve been an atheist since I was about 14. By my senior year in high school, I really, truly disliked religious people. I was dating a girl whose mother was an insufferable religious fanatic. I even made a Sunday School teacher tear up. But unlike the idiots who posted the sign at the Capital, I eventually grew up. That sign was unnecessarily mean-spirited. You don’t have to tear others down to find validation, but sadly, too many atheists still see their religion as antagonism rather than an intellectual pursuit.
And I know Goldy made this point on Tuesday night, but it really needs to be made again. In a week where Congress is debating whether to invest massive amounts of our tax dollars into a dying industry, where unemployment levels are the highest point in my lifetime, and where India and Pakistan are sitting on a very steep precipice, we actually had Bill O’Reilly talking to Goldy at the top of the hour on Tuesday night, railing against “political correctness” because he’s offended by a sign. And of course, the end result for the atheists is that being idiots got their sign on millions of TV sets across the country. Bill O’Reilly, making America dumber and more obnoxious every day.
the people who are making america dumber every day are the people who are manipulating the public schools to raise a generation of kids who
1 can’t read, write or understand logic
2 who dont learn loyalty or integrity but learn diversity is the new religion.
3 question christians and conservatives but things like abortion or homosexuality are forbidden to be doubted.
4 christians are bad but jews are good.
i guarantee you, teachers were brainwashing kids that obama was the choice for president.
@1
After reading this comment, I’m starting to wonder if we can actually get any dumber.
Picture this: Dec. 2008 at the Capitol Building in Olympia. BillO cameras rolling. The anal retentive saviors of Christmas milling about. 50 state patrol cars (lights on) roll up to the front door. One small woman known as the Governator walks up to front door and chains and locks front door placing sign up that says “closed till January – Merry Fucking Christmas”. Governator turns to cameras and says “eat me” gets in cars and they all drive off. (my fantasy)
@2
And I thought my grammar and punctuation was dreadful…
I can’t say I totally agree with you, Lee.
If there wasn’t a stubborn insistence on putting religious displays on government property, this group would never have the opportunity to put their obnoxious display up.
The people who truly denigrate Christianity are the likes of Bill O’Reilly who reduce the whole religion to petty squabbles about saying Merry Christmas at malls or nativity scenes inside government buildings.
@5
If there wasn’t a stubborn insistence on putting religious displays on government property, this group would never have the opportunity to put their obnoxious display up.
They could always put it on private property.
Just because we have the freedom to express ourselves doesn’t mean we can’t be critical of things said that are obnoxious or mean-spirited.
They could always put it on private property.
Same goes for the religious groups.
And it is almost always the religious groups who feel entitled to put their stuff on government property. So it is the religious groups who make government property a front in the culture war.
And so we should not be surprised that other groups use government space to express their opinion. My point is that religion should be put out of government and then the obnoxious atheist displays will go away with it.
As long as we use government property to express our religious beliefs no one group out to have a monopoly on it.
O’Riley called Goldy?
@7
As long as we use government property to express our religious beliefs no one group out to have a monopoly on it.
I absolutely agree. I think the way we’re doing this is correct. If nativity scenes are allowed, any type of religious expression should be allowed as well. But while the nativity scene wasn’t put there to denigrate other viewpoints, the atheists’ sign was.
@8
Yeah, Goldy was on O’Reilly on Tuesday night. The video is down below…
Lee @9,
I agree that the FFR sign is intended to denigrate religion. But the point is that this is precisely the religious message that the FFR wishes to express. In order to satisfy Lemon the state must remain neutral as to content, if it is going to provide this public forum.
We don’t have to be comfortable with such pointed criticism. And I tend to think that most sincere and thoughtful atheists are not. Aside from there being normally nothing to gain for an atheist in denigrating religion, there is a real down side to pissing off the torch-and-pitchfork crowd. Declaring yourself an atheist in this culture is tantamount to declaring yourself a pedophile. This sort of deliberate nose tweaking from folks like the FFR only deepens those suspicions.
But I think it is quite obvious that the objective of the FFR is to hasten the removal of all of the religious displays from the rotunda. And we have no reason to believe that this is not a principled objective. In fact it is an objective I find myself in agreement with. Though I am uncomfortable with the method. Still I have a difficult time imagining any other method that would have been as effective at driving home the point.
Sure, the truly ignorant are going to conclude that the State simply needs to remove the FFR sign. But of course, even the truly ignorant are bound by the First Amendment. Thus the only way of removing the offense is to remove all of the displays.
It might be nice to see the community arrive at that end through a consensus of enlightenment. But honestly, how likely is that?
Lee is wrong. The atheist sign doesn’t belong. Its purpose is to demonize, belittle, and degrade others. Its purpose is to cause fear and hate against a group of people.
If it were up to me, the person who created the sign, and the person who allowed it would be put in prison for 20 years for a hate crime.
11:
troll is wrong. His purpose is to demonize, belittle and degrade others who don’t believe exactly the way he does.
If it were up to me…..troll would be drawn and quartered for his stupidity.
@12
Question. If I took a picture of me urinating on a Koran, and blew it up to poster size, if you were Governor, would you allow me to put it along side the other holiday displays at the Capitol? No, you would not.
And with that, I believe I have just won this argument.
It’s interesting to juxtapose the UW Daily story, where some students say the column is homophobic and incites fear and hate, with the Capitol holiday display story, where I bet some of the same students would support the atheist’s sign, which some religious groups argue is inciting fear and hate towards them.
Hypocritical liberal fags.
The Bush-hating ornament lady. The religion-hating Capitol sign guy … now I know why the towelheads hate us.
Also:
The team formerly known as the Seattle SuperSonics is now 2-18 at the quarter pole, have fired their coach and are in serious danger of becoming the losingest team in NBA history. The countdown to 9 wins begins.
Oklahoma, you wanted ’em, you got ’em.
14:
Nice, troll, towel heads? Why don’t you just say sand niggers? We all know what kind of a racist you are.
If you want to urinate on a Koran, further proving your disgusting intellect, be my guest.
The saddest lies we tell are the ones we tell ourselves.
14:
I believe in the freedom of expression. If you want to put up the poster of you desecrating a religious object in the manner described, I would allow those who are offended the freedom of expression to deal with you.
You know those “towel heads” all carry knives and are just itching to use them.
I agree with Lee on this issue. Atheism is non-religion and not an anti-religious movement. A small group of atheistic activists give us a bad wrap by being what the religious right wants us to be.
Whenever I hear Richard Dawkins, for example, get on his big Oxbridge high horse and start talking smack about God, I wince.
My Friendly Left Foot Carl:
The same knife carrying “towel heads” would come after you because you allowed the picture to be placed in the Capitol.
BTW, how is your health my friend? Merry Christmas to you, Tereza and your tribe.
Yellowpup: Atheism is not a religion? Wow I remember this article saying otherwise. And since lefties love to have the courts legislate, I’m amazed you and Lee missed this.
But since you lefties don’t want to read specific news items from specific URLs you are left ignorant in today’s world!
Re: 9
But while the nativity scene wasn’t put there to denigrate other viewpoints, the atheists’ sign was.
I agree.
In the end, I hope that this manufactured controversy will at least teach some people that merging religion and state is a bad idea.
And now for a different note:
“Qalaf said through a translator: “Al Qaeda uses these people – the mentally ill, children and very young women. This shows al Qaeda is failing.””
I can see Al Qaeda continuing their “failing” ways by recruiting many lefties on HA.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
The solution is simple.
No religious displays on government property.
Puddy. I wouldn’t ignore Al Qaeda like Bush did when he first took office. From what I hear they are stronger, larger, and more organized than before 9-11, and there are hundreds of splinter groups with the same structure. Than Abu Gharib thing kinda pissed off a few million people…..
I am shocked and amazed you lefties are not discussing this death.
“He was a wonderful person — the only Orthodox gay vegetarian bicycling doctor I knew.”
Well, he had some of the major lefty groups’ redeeming “values”: covered.
gay
vegetarian
bicycling
What’s wrong with Puddy? Since everything he believes has been proven wrong lately, and his party is dying, he wants to just attack the reality based folks? Sad…..
Despite my conversion from nativism to Christianity, there are plenty of so-called “Christians” I don’t like — especially the ones who tie people to stakes and set them on fire because of disagreements about things like whether the earth is flat or spherical. But then, I’ve never considered these jerks to be real Christians, anyway.
NotFactsWorthlessPositions: Everything I believe is dying? Attacking reality based folks? You are reality based? Hardly bub…
God is not DEAD.
Jesus rose and lives again.
The Holy Spirit guides those who accept Jesus as the Son of God.
John McCain was not my candidate.
Even Lee wrote above… “That sign was unnecessarily mean-spirited. You don’t have to tear others down to find validation, but sadly, too many atheists still see their religion as antagonism rather than an intellectual pursuit.”
Lee wrote something that’s reality based, unlike your “facts”.
Pelletizer: Those who tied people to stakes were the Jesuits and Catholics of the middle ages. Don’t lump their vile history to non-Jesuits and non-Catholic Christians today.
I see Obama’s supporters like to fondle cardboard.
Bicycles Arguably Are Good For Something After all
I’m not a big fan of cyclists, especially after getting hit and knocked down in pedestrian crosswalks twice in 3 days in downtown Seattle a few years ago. But an item in today’s news persuades me that bicycles may have some utility after all, in a fashion.
Henry Molaison, 82, of New Hartford, Connecticut — for decades known to the world only as “Patient H.M.,” died this week.
According to the Associated Press, “Molaison participated in more than a half century of research and hundreds of studies that shed light on learning and memory.”
Wikipedia says Molaison “was very important in the development of theories that explain the link between brain function and memory, and in the development of cognitive neuropsychology, a branch of psychology that aims to understand how the structure and function of the brain relates to specific psychological processes.”
The New York Times described him as “the most important patient in the history of brain science.”
As a child, Molaison suffered seizure-causing brain injuries that prompted doctors to attempt experimental surgery which left him with profound amnesia. He could remember living in the 1940s, but nothing afterward. Molaison voluntarily cooperated with the research that followed.
His contributions to science were made possible by a jackass on a bicycle who hit him when he was 9 years old.
NotFactsWorthlessPositions:
The solution is even simpler. All atheists and Nativity haters work on Christmas without overtime pay. It’s just another day to your ilk!
NotFactsWorthlessPositions and all atheists and Nativity haters:
Do you give presents to your chillun on Christmas day? Why?
@2 After reading that comment, I’m convinced some kids get away with playing hooky from school for all 12 grades and end up with no education at all.
Looks like political correctness is going to attack Obama now.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Just a couple of brief observations this morning.
First, the Ten Commandants, which are much esteemed among religionists (especially the very loud ones), exhorts (among other things), “Thou shalt not steal.”
Second, someone (presumably a religionist) stole the atheists’ sign from the Capitol.
Of course, I won’t mention the fact that one of the biggest problems that rational, thinking, secular people have with self-described “Christians” is their tendency to be fucking hypocrites.
My own perspective is slightly different. I think it’s a good thing these people are attracted to Christianity, because they’re in acute need of its teachings.
@28 And what were the idiots who hanged “witches” in New Salem, Puddy? If memory serves, they were some other brand of Christianists, of Protestant stripe if I’m not mistaken.
@34 Stop misappropriating my copyrighted literary material, thief! If you want to use “HAR HAR HAR” in your posts, then pay me royalties! Fucking Republican crook.
Do you give presents to your chillun on Christmas day? Why?
Because children bring joy to our lives and they appreciate the presents.
I can see Al Qaeda continuing their “failing” ways by recruiting many lefties on HA.
The mentally ill describes you and your crowd Stupes.
Blackwater ‘Security Contractors’ Indicted
Five Blackwater employees who murdered 17 Iraqi civilians in 2007 have been indicted on charges that could bring 30-year prison sentences. They were charged under a federal law that makes it illegal to kill someone with a machinegun.
@10
I agree that the FFR sign is intended to denigrate religion. But the point is that this is precisely the religious message that the FFR wishes to express. In order to satisfy Lemon the state must remain neutral as to content, if it is going to provide this public forum.
I never said otherwise. I’m just criticizing the negative message of the atheists’ sign. I’m not saying that it should be removed.
Sign me up! Can you imagine an easier day to work? Silent phones, email flat-lined, no meetings, no traffic. Probably get more work done and still be able to read a chapter or two from a gawdless secular tome on science. Just be sure to give me my choice of a different day off with pay.
@20
Please don’t attempt to argue with people who are far smarter than you. It just makes you look ridiculous. While Yellowpup maybe should have drawn a distinction between agnosticism and atheism, his overall point is no different than mine. Atheist is a religion, but it’s one based on science and empiricism as it’s primary “faith”.
Lee-
Good bio….glad you finally grew up.
Bottom-line:
Gregoire is a COWARD.
She has 100% control over WHEN & WHERE something may be displayed in the Capital. To hide behind PART of a legal opinion is not leadership…it is cowardice.
The display is worse than mean-spirited…it is denegrating the deeply held beliefs of many in a highly confrontational way.
Gregoire allowed this Atheist display to be placed next to the Nativity Scene during the Christmas season.
This is quickly becoming her legacy.
Lee, I agree there are many important things our State Government must address. However, do not minimize the importance of this. For many of us, our religious convictions guide our daily decision-making…it is our foundation. To have Gregoire intentionally allow that to be attacked in the Capital Rotunda is unacceptable. Blacks would go ballistic if someone denegrated MLK under his picture at the Capital…and rightly so.
I am thankful we are having this discussion.
It is at the core of many decisions we make as individuals, a State and a Nation.
It ultimately comes down to your core beliefs.
I have no problem with the Atheist sign or message. I have a problem with Out-of-Staters using a dead woman & the Capital Rotunda to launch a confrontational attack on religion at Christmas and Hannukah time.
It is GREGOIRE’s responsibility. Period.
Lee spews:
Actually Lee, Atheism is a religion based on SELF-worship. Atheists believe if they cannot see it or understand it, it does not exist. They rely on themselves as the focal point of their conviction. Scarey.
Hard to understand how human beings can actually believe that thru science alone, they can understand all the mysteries of Creation, the Universe and time. WHO empowered us human beings to be able to achieve this level of understanding? Are we really that self-important? How hopeless to believe that this life is all there is….and that you have no soul.
@44
Actually Lee, Atheism is a religion based on SELF-worship.
No it’s not.
Atheists believe if they cannot see it or understand it, it does not exist.
How is that self-worship? Atheists believe that you shouldn’t believe in things unless you have evidence that such a thing exists.
They rely on themselves as the focal point of their conviction.
No, they rely on science.
Scarey.
Hard to understand how human beings can actually believe that thru science alone, they can understand all the mysteries of Creation, the Universe and time.
They can, but it will take far, far longer than our lifetimes. I find it far more intellectually honest to say “we don’t know” when it comes to how the universe began than to make up fairy tales about it and be convinced that they’re true.
WHO empowered us human beings to be able to achieve this level of understanding?
It was a process of evolution that took hundreds of millions of years. We actually know that part already.
Are we really that self-important?
Not really. We’re pretty insignificant in terms of the entire universe.
How hopeless to believe that this life is all there is….and that you have no soul.
You keep believing in fairy tales (and I will always support your right to do so), and I will keep relying on science to understand the world.
45. Lee spews:
Yes it is Lee…and that is where the problem is. As an Atheist, YOU decide which science to look at and the ignore anything based on faith. It is all about YOU….your comprehension, your take. There is no spiritual world…thus it’s all about YOU.
Lee spews:
Lee, do you ever wonder where true JOY comes from? Not from science my friend.
Are you a JOYful person?
Seems like Atheists I know are constantly tangled up in things of this world that they do not control and cannot accept.
No soul==No JOY
So Lee, let’s come at the issue of God from your scientific perspective.
As an Atheist, you are saying there is a 100% chance there is No God…right?
Absolutely ZERO possibility that God exists.
Is that correct?
I presume in coming to that conclusion, you have done in-depth Bible Studies…correct?
No scientist would ever disregard something he did not first attempt to study and understand.
If you have studied the Bible, how do you explain the prophecy’s in the Old Testament of a Savior to be born?
How do you explain Jesus’ miracles?
How do you explain Health miracles…healings…even today that are unexplainable by medicine and science?
Seems to me that your conclusion there is absolutely ZERO chance there is a God is jumping to conclusions without doing all the necessary research.
You probably started with the premise…There is No God, right?
How about coming at it from the premise that God does exist?
Lee, is it really absolutely ZERO chance God exists?
@46
Yes it is Lee…and that is where the problem is. As an Atheist, YOU decide which science to look at and the ignore anything based on faith.
No, that’s not even close to accurate. Science is a process for determining truth. As an atheist, I use that process to determine what’s true.
It is all about YOU….your comprehension, your take.
No it’s not. It’s all about using a process that’s been shown to work far better than any other process for determining truth.
There is no spiritual world…thus it’s all about YOU.
No, it’s not. It’s about empiricism, logic, and experimentation. It’s a set of tools that one uses to determine truth. People can certainly be spiritual, but for me, that never trumps science.
@47
Lee, do you ever wonder where true JOY comes from?
Not really. I’m an extremely happy person because I enjoy life.
Are you a JOYful person?
Absolutely.
Seems like Atheists I know are constantly tangled up in things of this world that they do not control and cannot accept.
Seems like you make a lot of shit up.
No soul==No JOY
As I said, keep believing in fairy tales. I will never try to stop you from doing so. But apparently, you can’t seem to hear the fact that I’m a happy and contented atheist without feeling compelled to attack me. Why is that?
@20: Atheism itself is not a religion, the article talks about a specific religious practice that calls itself “Atheism” that is a religion:
By choosing not to believe in God I am not automatically a member of a religion, I would have to join a religious group. Similarly, there are agnostics and people who say “I’m spiritual but not religious” who also are not part of a formal religion. The two ideas are independent.
@48
So Lee, let’s come at the issue of God from your scientific perspective.
Go for it.
As an Atheist, you are saying there is a 100% chance there is No God…right?
As an Atheist, I’m saying that there’s absolutely zero evidence that there’s a human-like being that created this world and monitors/controls/judges our actions.
Absolutely ZERO possibility that God exists.
Is that correct?
No, that’s not quite correct. It’s always possible that something exists for which, at this time, there’s no evidence for. I just find the possibility that such a God exists, he wants us to worship him, but leaves absolutely no clear evidence of his existence to be too infinitely small to pursue as a serious theory.
I presume in coming to that conclusion, you have done in-depth Bible Studies…correct?
The Bible was a set of fairy tales told to people over hundreds of years then eventually written down. I don’t see how it is any more proof of the existence of God than the Roman and Greek myths were about the existence of Zeus and others.
No scientist would ever disregard something he did not first attempt to study and understand.
Give me specific verifiable evidence that any of the stories in the Bible are true then.
If you have studied the Bible, how do you explain the prophecy’s in the Old Testament of a Savior to be born?
It’s a made-up story.
How do you explain Jesus’ miracles?
They’re made-up stories.
How do you explain Health miracles…healings…even today that are unexplainable by medicine and science?
Give me one example. Lots of things happen that aren’t explained by science right away. None of this is obviously close to proof of any type of supreme being who watches over us, of course.
Seems to me that your conclusion there is absolutely ZERO chance there is a God is jumping to conclusions without doing all the necessary research.
You actually put that conclusion in my mouth, so you may want to re-read what I wrote above and try again.
You probably started with the premise…There is No God, right?
Nope. As I said, I became an atheist at 14. Before that, I tended to think there had to be a god because so many people believed it.
How about coming at it from the premise that God does exist?
I did try it, and I found that it was an unlikely proposition.
Lee, is it really absolutely ZERO chance God exists?
No, and one can never scientifically say that. However, you can also never really be absolutely sure that there’s ZERO chance that the flying spaghetti monster exists and that unless you wear polka dots on your pants and fast every Tuesday that he will send your soul to eternal hellfire.
Cynical’s bragging (or flights of fancy) about money seems pretty egocentric i.e. selfish to me or at the very least self-aggrandizing.
There are Christian religious sects, some very close to the levers of power in this country, that truly believe the rich and powerful are that way because of God’s will. One of those sects organize the National Prayer Breakfast.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all if Cynical is a member of or fellow traveller with, one of those sects.
YLB–
I’m not “bragging” about money.
I was trying to educate you KLOWNS that there are always opportunities to make a profit and share some insights & strategies.
Since you are poor & angry…I could see how you would consider another’s success as “bragging”.
A little quantum theory might do you some good.
No such thing as “ZERO” possibility. But some things are far more probable than others, and some far less probable than others. The trick is calculating all the probabilities. The difficulty of which is in direct proportion to the complexity of the event/system being predicted/observed.
By the way, how would you “test” for the existence of a totally invisible, all powerful, all knowing, ever-present, omnipotent “CREATOR” (who strangely is purported to closely resemble Max von Sydow)?
@ 54
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
Get used to Hellfire, Mr. C. because the bible tells us that is exactly where you are going.
54 – Nope. It’s bragging. It’s claiming you’re better because you have more money. Not too Christian if you ask me.
If I’m angry it’s because I’m expected to believe and fall for the right wing sales pitch which is nothing but deception. I saw it with Rossi, I saw it with McSame (who wore it like a cheap suit), I saw it with Bush (for whom the suit just fit fine) and on back to Raygun, a man so shallow that he seemed born for the deception that he rose to sell.
I’ve seen it with every organ of right wing propaganda – from Faux News, to Limbaugh, to the Murdoch empire, to the dozens of stink tanks endowed by wealthy right wing ideologues who’ve done quite well by this massive deception as if they weren’t well off enough.
I imagine Mr. C. is another of them “Pick and Choosers”, if there is a statement in the Bible he is uncomfortable with, or doesn’t want to believe, he ignores it, or creates an elaborate rationalization to explain it away.
Mr. C. is hell bound for sure.
Lee-
You must have thought about this so answer me
What would constitute PROOF to you that God exists?
If God shook the earth and spoke to you, would you believe it?
What would it take?
If the answer is Nothing, seems to me you are a bit lacking in sincerity.
Real American–
No mere mortal can be expected to live a perfect life. It’s a matter of striving to do what Jesus taught us….
Your argument is tiresome at best
It’s lunchtime.
I’d like for the all-powerful CREATOR of all things to make a Red Mill bacon deluxe with cheese, with onions, appear on my desk before me right now, please.
….
Nothin.
Oh well. Guess I’ll have to walk.
I agree with Lee. It isn’t enough that these bitter angry atheists just remain non believers and just live and let live. They make it a point to go out of their way to antagonize those that DO have religious faith. More than that, they go to unbelievable lengths, spend incredible time, resources, and energy to try and prevent others from expressing their religious viewpoint. If they are so confident in what they believe (or don’t believe), then why not just STFU and move on with your life? Why get wrapped up in the discussion at all? Do these people not have a life? Or are they just highly insecure? Or on some level, tortured by just a hint of doubt?
Are you actually striving to live a perfect life, Mr. C.?
It would seem you are actively striving to be a rich man, thus making it impossible for you to enter the kingdom of God.
You are again picking and choosing which words of Christ to believe and which you feel “safe” in ignoring.
Your rationalization is tiresome at best, and a longing for hell fire at worst!
Ahhh Lee, so much more “intelligent” than me? I have fourteen words for that:
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Crapola butthead. You are in the Lee Cocoon and anytime anyone disagrees with you they are stupid.
Since Yellowpup made the supposition “Atheism is non-religion” and you claimed he should have focused on agnosticism, I guess by your definition he’s below you in intelligence. Well Lee I’ll place my IQ against yours any day of the week.
I agree with your last statement Atheism is a religion. Too bad Yellowpup is more stupid than you.
Yellowpup: When running with the big dogs you should read more…
“The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.”
I think Carl Sagan best explains Lee, Yellowpup and others here: “The universe is all that is or ever was or ever will be.” Zero sum.
I am disgusted by the protests of the anti-American, anti-free speech students at the UW.
“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” Prov 16:18
Pelletizer Hmmm… I looked at trademarks, patents, and copyrights.
HAR was not listed
HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR was not listed either.
So to use a two letter word you struggle with: “IF” it was patented…
Thanks Real American.
That wasn’t a prideful statement. Lee claimed he was more intelligent than me. I differ in opinion.
@ 69 “That wasn’t a prideful statement.”
If it wasn’t a prideful statement, then it must mean that you consider yourself to be stupid.
As for Lee, he does not claim to be a beleiver in the Bible. You do. And yet you choose to ignore it’s wisdom.
My, my.
If there is anything sillier than an Atheist insisting that God doesn’t exist because said Atheist can’t see the evidence of God in the world, it’s a Christian trying to convince an Atheist that God does exist using the Bible as the primary source document.
We do our cause no good using circular logic. This is a perfect example of circular logic:
And beside that, we Christians often act as if we don’t even consider the Bible as the definative word of God. We’re happy enough to take the bits we like (often out of context) to condemn others, but with our own favorite sins, somehow we just ignore those parts.
And I’m not even bothering to get into the “sell your daughter” and “beat your wife” parts. Even most learned Atheists (if pressed) acknowledge that those parts don’t actually endorse that behaviour, but limit it.
Back to us. Condemn homosexuality? Ok. But you also have to condemn the wearing of poly/cotton shirts (Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts Deut 22:11)
Maybe that’s the real cause of the financial meltdown. God’s wrath on all those folks wearing wool blend suits.
Or, we can look at where the Bible specifically tells us what is the real message. For my Hebrew bretheren, we can go to Micah 6:8 “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?“, and for those of us that consider Jesus to be the incarnation of God, well, He had one or two things to say as well:
(Using the Bible to convince Atheists might be silly, but using it to convince Christians seems pretty reasonable.)
So it seems that if anything else in the Bible seems to contradict this, we have God Himself telling us how we should look at it.
So, my fellow Christians, if you could show me how all this injustice and anger can manage to fit in with what God Himself tells us is the most important commandment, I’d be really impressed.
As for our Atheist friends. Yes, the sign was a bit mean-spirited. But we’ve also been told to let that kind of stuff go. So, have a happy winter solstace.
No need for you to thank me for demonstrating your hypocrisy Puddybud. I consider it an obvious public service.
ROTCODDAM, I said you could gladly work on Christmas for pay. I said no overtime since it’s not a holiday you believe in.
Real American, glad you are still confused.
Great service you provide telling everyone how confused you are everyday.
Keep up the great work.
@ 74 :)
John Barelli, interesting.
I believe God gives every man, woman, child and it (Steve the Goat Herder) the right to choose to believe in Him or reject Him.
You forgot the major part though; Jesus died for all of us. But these lefties reject Jesus. “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18
There are some scientists who have come to the scientific conclusion that their atheism is wrong and have joined the ranks of Christians. You can Google or Live Search them. Yet to the puny minds of these atheists, these Christian scientists are “morons”.
Let me see if I got this right. There’s some foster kid charity out there that wants money from me, so they can buy presents to give to the foster parents, who will take credit for their purchase. Seems a little dishonest of the foster parent, if you ask me. I should get the credit if I bought the present. The present is from me, not your foster parent, so the tag on the present should say that.
Real American@63: Apparently you don’t understand the justification or sanctification process since you are a non-believer.
I’m sure John Barelli, being a liberal, can understand your thought processes and explain it in liberal terms…
anyone who is posting here and is a christian realize this. the media is controlled by non christians, hollywood is controlled by non christians, the senate is dominated by non christians, the federal reserve is run by non christians, the treasury secretary is always non christian. so tell me, where is the diversity that they preach?
@65: I disagree with you and Lee that atheism is a religion. To be clear, “religion,” to me, implies a formal system of shared belief, practices and rituals, and a sense of community. My original point was that viewing atheism as a religion reduces atheism to an anti-Christian religion, which serves the right’s “demonizing” cultural agenda.
You write:
Good for the Supreme Court. Buddhists don’t believe in a supreme being per se either, and I never said that Buddhism isn’t a religion. There are also Taoist practices that take on the characteristics of religions that I wouldn’t rule out being religions either.
I don’t accept that atheism is religion. It is merely a position that there is no God/gods, for whatever reason or for no reason, scientific or otherwise. To say that all atheists are the same and believe the same things, and that they therefore belong to a religious group, is nonsense.
You have to choose to join a religion, you can’t be said to be in a religion because of your non-belief in something. People can make a religion of atheism, but that’s not what being an atheist means.
Look at it this way: There are people who are politically non-Republican, but there will never be a Non-Republican Party until someone creates one and starts letting people join.
Troll:
No, you didn’t get it right. The point in giving a present isn’t who gets the “credit”. It’s in doing something nice for a kid. That’s rather the whole point of the “Santa Claus” myth. It allows parents (and others) to give without the expectation of any “credit”.
Puddy:
No, I didn’t “forget the major part”. I simply take Jesus at His word when He tells me what the “greatest commandment” is.
And I point out that we Christians have to remember that our actions need to match our words, or our words will fall on deaf ears.
Simply parroting the words of the Bible will not convert anyone. When we do that, we aren’t really putting someone in a position to choose.
Living our lives so that non-believers find themselves asking the question “what makes that person seem so much happier and more alive than me?” is the only really effective way of bringing folks to the point where they can choose to believe.
Man of truth:
You seem pretty exclusive on who you consider to be a Christian. I’m not sure that’s your call to make.
Well Yellowpup…per Lee science is his religion. Per Lee:”Science is a process for determining truth. As an atheist, I use that process to determine what’s true.”
And if Jesus was just a philosopher as per many atheists, what’s the problem with Nativity Scenes? We’re just “worshipping” a philosopher.
John Barelli, I agree. To love your neighbor as yourself means to help them when they are hurting. I do. Do you?
We both agree atheistic liberals don’t.
John, it’s not dishonest for someone to lie? Because that’s what the foster parents are doing. They are letting the kids believe, or even outright telling them, that the presents are from them, when the present aren’t from them, they are from me.
Of course yelling loser boy dismisses all the leftist manure noise from BG, NYT, CT, HC, WaPo, LAT, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, NPR, Daily Kurse, Media Morons, TPMudwrapper, etc. everyday.
Anyway, I don’t get this whole foster care Christmas present charity drive. We’re in a recession. The parents should be explaining that to their foster kids, and they shouldn’t rely on others to buy their presents for them. They should give them what they are able to. Nothing more. That’s what biological parents have to do.
Puddy
One bit in defense of Lee. I doubt that he has any problem with Nativity scenes. Some of the great works of art throughout the ages have been religious, and many Atheists enjoy them just as much as we do.
The problem comes when the government sponsors or endorses the display, without letting other groups have a similar display.
The simple solution is to avoid the problem entirely. Creches belong on church property, not on government property.
The government is welcome to celebrate the secular holiday (that should be a contradiction in terms, but the word “holiday” has come to mean any celebratory day) of Christmas.
Have a decorated tree, or a Santa Claus figure. Decorate the area with lights and ribbons. None of these promote a particular religion, and as evidence of that, I present the fact that two places that put on some of the gaudiest Christmas displays on the planet are Singapore and Hong Kong.
If either of those places has a state religion, it’s “commercialism”, which is what our current holiday of Christmas actually seems to celebrate.
@ 78, Puddybud, I certainly understand your thought processes. It is called “cognitive dissonance”. You invent elaborate rationalizations for your ignoring certain statements the Jesus gave, and pick and choose which ones you want to use for justification for your hatred and greed.
You are an empty shell of a person.
Troll
You have a heart of the finest stone.
Give, if that seems the right thing to do. Don’t give if it doesn’t. But stop trying to justify the decision to anyone else. It give the impression that you really do think that you should help, but are looking for an excuse not to.
@ 83
I do not know if John appreciates you putting words in his mouth, but your statement is laughably ignorant and shamefully intolerant.
You claim that atheist liberals do not help others when they are hurting.
How would you “know” this, Puddybud, except through willful ignorance about and outrageous hatred of others that you wish to tarnish through your own ignorance.
A truly sad and empty shell you are, Puddybud.
I can see nothing enticing about “Christianity” through the words of Puddybud.
I see exactly the opposite.
@89
Ok John, teach me. Help me to understand.
I’m have to tighten my belt this Christmas. In terms of material gifts, I will be giving much, much less this year. And I will not be relying on any organization to make up for this belt tightening.
But it’s a crime for foster parents to have to give less? They should not have to be frugal this year, so I should dig deep, so they can give their foster kids a normal Christmas, when our family will not?
Help me to understand your logic, please.
Ok, Troll, I’ll give it a try.
First, those foster kids get far less than most in the best of times. Odds are that even with your belt-tightening at home, the foster kids are worse off than your kids. I know they’re worse off than mine, because even if my kid gets nothing at all for Christmas (not likely), he has his own home and family to be with and enjoy.
Next, now, while times are tight, folks that ordinarily give quite a bit are cutting back. Those foster kids will get less this year than last, even with your help. Your choice is not whether to give someone else’s kids a “normal Christmas”, but whether you are willing to help them have one at all.
Foster parents often choose to provide presents at Christmas, but remember that they have no more responsibility to do so than any other person. They are already giving the gift of opening their homes to these children.
You may make the decision that those children are none of your concern. You may even feel justified because your (and my) tax dollars are often going to support them.
But asking why they should have a “normal Christmas” while your family does not makes me wonder what you consider to be a “normal Christmas”.
Are your children living with strangers, shuffled from house to house, wondering if they can make friends in school, or if they will be moved the next day?
Or worse, are your children living in a group home because there are not enough foster parents to take in all the children that need help?
No? I sincerely hope not, in any case. Hopefully, your children will have a joyous holiday at home with family and friends, and a big dinner, and even with some presents, as will my family, even if the presents aren’t as expensive as in years past.
But just as in years past, I will find something nice that I can give to a foster child, without any expectation of credit, just because I know that I am helping someone that will not, no matter how much we may try, have a “normal Christmas”.
But maybe we can make it just a little bit nicer.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I still don’t like the idea of someone else saying they bought the present, when I did. I think it’s dishonest.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
thats all the constitution says. allowing, us, christians, who founded this country, (and who are the majority, just like the msm talked about all those years about south africa, majority rule) to celebrate our religion. allowing a display doesn’t contradict the constitution. another lie by the msm.
Lee makes a good point about “growing up.” The sign could have been written differently. I think to a degree it made a lot of people cringe, but even more get outright belligerent. I don’t condone extremism on any front; if the sign’s presenter hadn’t have on camera saying it was meant to be degrading to religion, I would have thought it was just badly written. Now I know he intended to be an a-hole.
Not good or respectful, and certainly not something that is going to bring anyone around to his way of thinking. The reaction, however intolerant it might seem, was a true gauge of what the public is willing to accept from signs or from viewpoints that spend more time breaking down than lifting up. Even as a Christian I support the right of the Atheist to post that sign, so long as it’s as respectful as the signs around it. That one wasn’t and deserved every bit of bad press it got.
Yes, the sign got face time in the national media. Question is how will that face time impact the nation’s view of Atheism? Based on what I’ve seen, that view isn’t too shimmery.
Troll
The outfits that I know of that do gifts for foster children don’t claim that the foster family is giving the gifts. Usually the gifts are given anonymously.
Still, I’m not really concerned about whether the kids think the foster family is giving the gifts or not. I just hope they like them.
Man of truth
Have a display. Nobody is telling you not to. Put one up at your church. Put one up on your lawn. If your neighbor consents, put one up on his or her lawn. Buy a vacant lot and put one up there. Not only will nobody stop you, most folks (myself included) will enjoy it.
But unless you’re willing to have every religion, Satanism included, put up displays on public property, then leave the religious displays off public property.
We should be glad it was just the Atheists insisting on a display, and take it as a warning of things that could be.
By all means. Celebrate. We have reason to be joyful. But let our public celebration be such that it honors our tradition of keeping church and state separate.
barelli thats not my point. i’m saying that people have purposely misrepresented what it says in the constitution. it is “ok” for the government to allow religious displays, they just cant make a law saying that one religion is official or outlaw religion. the fonding fathers knew that religion was a part of our heritage. the media has purposely distorted that idea so that people think there is a “seperation of church and state”, the constition does not have those words in it. schools do not have students learn or read the constitution because, sorry to say, there is am agenda by some people to change this country from its founding ideas into a bastard country, so they can more easily manipulate it. it was done to rome, greece, russia, germany, just read your history. this time however, because of technology it may be too late.
@ 98 “the media has purposely distorted that idea so that people think there is a “seperation of church and state”, the constition does not have those words in it”
You can blame founding father Jefferson for that. He was the first to say that the first amendment created a “wall of separation between church and state.”
But if your small cranium is content to believe that the “msm” did that. Go ahead. I am sure such erroneous beliefs have lots of company in your small mind.
so, is your point that there is no such thing as the seperation of church and state but that its jefferson’s fault not the msm? i’ll go along with that.
@ 100, the separation of church and state has been tested many times in the Supreme Court. It exists, and is the result of the Establishment Clause of the 1st amendment.
Who you care to blame for this is no concern of mine. It just is, and if you don’t like it, then scream into your pillow as you cry yourself to sleep at night.
I will include a link in my next post. The posts with URL’s have a tendency to be held up by the buffer.
Seperation of Church and State
Real American and Man of truth:
Actually, Jefferson wasn’t the point person on that concept. That honor belongs to the Danbury Baptist Church.
Yes, it was the church that championed the “wall of separation” between church and state. The citizens of the new United States of America had just seen first-hand what can happen when you let church and state comingle.
The church suffers. It becomes a path to secular power and prestige, rather than God’s mission here on Earth.
Additionally, when the acts of the government become the law of God, there is no freedom to disagree with the government.
While both church and state tend to suffer when the wall comes down, it is the church, historically, that suffers most.
@ 103 the concept is actually much older than that, but it was Jefferson who coined the phrase in a letter to the Danbury Baptist group. Although the Danbury Baptists did ascribe to the concept.
Real American@88 or is it headless lucy – the original cognitive dissonance fool on HorsesASS.
You don’t understand anything about me. Being from from Arizona you have no idea what an eastern inner city person has lived through. So take your cognitive dissonance and put it with the other BULLSHITTIUM you’ve spout.
@ 105
We’ve been through this before, Puddybud. Cognitive Dissonance is a well known phrase, and if we attempt to construe that people who use the same well known phrase are in fact the same person: Then let me say this; “Do unto others and you would have them do unto you”
I assume you know believe me to be Jesus.
.
The fact that everything on your list does not in anyway match me, I can comfortably state that you know absolutely nothing about me.
But, if you feel somehow that your life in the inner city somehow excuses you for your inconsistency of thought. Sorry, it doesn’t.
@64
Well Lee I’ll place my IQ against yours any day of the week.
How much money are you willing to wager? Send me an email and we’ll set this up.
You mean we aren’t supposed to make fun of the religious folks?
Damn, what’ll I do on Saturday nights then?
I’m going to be frank here – the conservative religious right has been so hateful, so vocal, and so downright assholish towards everyone they have an issue with, I’m not exactly worried that they just got a taste of their own medicine.
As nice as I am most of the time, I have to say – I don’t actually care if that (sign) hurt someone’s feelings. They have become so gad damned sensitive about anyone making statement, leading lives, or otherwise living in a way that has no affect on them but it bothers them none the less that they got what they deserved.
It’s like all the businesses and churches that supported prop 8. They support a ban that tramples civil rights, and then whine because they’re being boycotted.
Hello? Actions have consequences.
/rant.
@82:
I have nothing against who/what you worship and I’ve never said anything for or against nativity scenes. You’re making a lot of assumptions here, and this is an example that seems to make my overall point about the use and abuse of atheism.
Real American, empty shell.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Pay attention.
How many disasters have you visited or contributed to?
Since I’m the empty shell, tell me how much I’ve contributed. As an empty shell, it has to be nothing right?
Cognitive dissonance my ASS!
Lee, how about $100.00?
We each give it to SeattleJew and he holds it until it’s decided?
Real American – cognitive dissonance?
Lee, why should I send you an email? Let’s do this up front.
Yellowpup, do you have anything against the display of the nativity scene in the Capitol?
Puddybud, believe me, I am very certain you have contributed to far more disasters than I have.
I am sure you leave a wake of disasters everywhere you go.
Actually, that explains a lot.
Real American, with #114. I rest my case.
You are the empty shell. You don’t care for anyone except yourself.
Nuff SAID. Enough with your stupidity. Go back to Arizona.
@ 116, Puddybud you are amusing. I am glad you folded your case. Your accusation was pointless and without merit.
And I visited Arizona once, but it was too hot. I prefer the Pacific Northwest. Land I was born in.
And Arizona has too many sanctimonious hypocrites like you for my taste.
Surreal Amerikkkan, I folded?
Hardly!
Surreal Amerikkkan, you don’t amuse me. You are a fellow man hater!
111 Puddybud
I ‘spect Lee would rather not have me hold that bet. FWIW, knowing both of you, I doubt there would be much of a contest, unless Lee got points on the test for resorting to obscenities when stumped.
Why not each take the Mensa test? I’ll put my dollars down on the Xtian in that fight!.
Lee seems to like challenges like this. Sometimes though, he likes higher stakes! He might go for public humiliation? Or an agreement that the loser needs to serve the other for a day.
All that aside, disproving “god” is pretty easy as long as we agree that:
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; while also asserting for man the ability to tell good from evil. The latter requirement rules out any God that gace man judgment as well.
OTOH, an evil or amoral God is easy enuff to postulate.
SJ: You know me better than that. And… after meeting my beautiful wife you know how we think, I’m not into the humiliation aspect.
Mensa test hmmm… Problem is there are so many online both could cheat…
Now to your God argument – using the first five books of the Bible SJ, the Pentateuch or Torah:
Regarding God:omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good, I remember Exodus 33:20-23 when he dealt with Moses’ request to see him
33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Then when Moses hewed the new tablets for the second set of 10 Commandments Exodus 34:
34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. So God descends and a cloud and stands with Moses. So I guess He must have a body.
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, So is God merciful?
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Puddy
On Lee …
My pointy prehensile oral appendage was in my wet cheek. His combativeness edges over into a domain I do not think would endure a polite contest.
FWIW, I STILL respect him. He does mean well and is pretty smart. I wish I did not stick so easily in hiscbraw when I argue with him. I think a good part of the problem is that he and I are alike in some ways. We both actually care about these issues. Unfortunately on three topics, Islam, drugs, and government assisted suicide, Lee and I disagree.
Saddest of all is that lee is in many ways a real and good example of what I think a good jew is. He cares and is easily as opinionated as any other cheredi (extremely pious Jew)!
Lee spews……’I eventually grew up.’
But yet he is still a stoner and obsessed with pot at his age. Grew up? Only partially it appears. Cough, cough, hack-hack!
on Puddy on God
co posted at SJ since I suspect few here will be interested …
On God ….
Your citation makes my point.
Of course there can be a God, if we accept either that Man can not determine God’s goodness of if we accept that God is not good,
Hashem (the name) saying it is good is only evidence if you accept revelation AND God’s statement. BUT, accepting that statement leads to a very unchristian conclusion .. the God of Moses is not above criticism, he is not in the Christian sense, a good God!
Did you know that the word Israel means struggle .. for Jacob’s wrestling with God! Indeed there is a long Jewish tradition of struggle with God, of God mistreating “his” people out of jealousy .. hardly an attribute of a good God?
Of course, we can say that Man lacks the ability to tell good from bad except by literally following the word of God. That is close to what some OJ believe and why they adhere to 613 laws (mitzvot, good deeds). Fundamentalist Islam is very much like OJ in this regard,
Unfortunately for Christians, this Jewish/Islamic concept can not be applied w/o giving up Jesus-as-God because of the three faiths, only Christianity lacks a claim to a literally true revealed legal code. On the other hand the strict monotheism of Islam and Judaism makes a blasphemy of any sort of deity other than the ineffable Hashem. (I have NEVER understood the Western fixation on the idea that monotheism is itself a good idea.)
The good side of the lack of a Christian equivalent to the Quran or Torah is that, I think, it has led to a lot of evolution in Christian thinking. (BTW, did you know the Romans accused the Christians of atheism?)
Lacking a credible Word, that is one with historicity and an explicit statement by the deity endorsing accuracy, Christians have grown in ways that I see as positive. In some ways reform Judaism is a fusion of the Christian effort with the more elegant simplicity and cosmology of Judaism. In its early days, in late 19th century Germany, Reform grew in an atmosphere where Christianity itself was also being driven by science and humanism. What I mean by this is that reform takes on the Western-Christian concepts of freedom of belief, charity, agape, without the burdensome concept of a Deity cruel enough (sorry D, that is how I see it) to sacrifice someone so man can adhere to Its will.
Some Christian sects do the same thing by de-deifying Yashka (the diminuitive affectionate name he would have been called by if he really existed). IMHO, the Unitarians fail at this because they try to hard to accommodate everyone. There are a small number of protestants, however, who come closer or exceed Reform … some Quakers, Noachide Christians, and the “Hebrews” movement among African Americans. (Did you know about Funnye Capers, Michelle’s cousin? He leads a conservative Jewish Synagogue of AA Hebrews who have converted to being Jews). I am not so sure about the SDA. You may be the most sophisticated SDA I have met.
I have thought about getting Capers out here as a speaker. If I do would you and Raj be interested? I would like to hear how he deals with the problem of conversion. While anyone can join our people, for an observant person like you and Raj, the burden of conversion seems to me to be huge. The convert who really wants to do this, ends up with 613 burdensome mitzvot t follow plus all the opprobrium that comes with Yiddishkeit AND the orthodox dogma that Hashem (remember the Jewish God is not “good in human terms) is more judgemental of jews that He is of others.
It would be fascinating to hear how Rabbi Capers reached his conclusion.
@76 Puddybud spews:
While there are some scientists who are also religious, no scientist I know of would argue that evidence supports the existence of an anthropomorphic being able to influence the word’s event or account for creation. CP Snow and Francis Collins talk of two worlds, separate disciplines, each with their own vlaue.
@82. Puddybud
Puhleeze … calling Lee’s set of arbitrary truths science is a slur on science.
If you want to discuss what a scientist believes, the look at Richard Dawkins who jusififies his atheeism on the basis of science.
95. manof truth spews:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
I suspect Jefferson and Adams, Hamilton and even the Catholics of the South would not find much in common with those who callthemseves Christian today.
Man of truth said:
Hold up thar, pardner! The mainstream media says many dumb things, but that isn’t one of them. Some evangelical churches, without bothering to actually read or watch the MSM, have said that the MSM said that, and then the “some say” crowd comes out and perpetuates the lie.
There is nothing unconstitutional per se about a creche on government property. It only becomes unconstitutional if the same level of access is not also given to the Bahai, the Wiccans, the Muslims, the Jews, the Zoroastrians, the Satanists and yes, the Atheists.
Call me a religious bigot, but I really don’t want a large black horned goat’s head with an inverted pentacle to be prominently displayed on the grounds of the state capitol. It would bother me.
But I also realize that if that display bothers me, my preferred display (yes, that Creche) bothers others at least as much.
So, as a matter of practicality, and as a way of promoting peace and goodwill among folks of all faiths, my solution is that none of us put up religious displays on government property.
Will some folks complain about any Christmas display? Yes, but not all Christmas displays are religious, and Christmas is a national holiday with a secular side to it. Folks objecting to a Christmas Tree should just get over it. It’s a secular symbol of a secular holiday.
Jesus never enountered a Douglas Fir in his time here on Earth, nor did He ever start a collection of Hallmark ornaments, changing every year to encourage us all to spend money on cheap, useless baubles.
So, Man of Truth, which do you (and your church) prefer? Either that creche, positioned neatly between a statue of Shiva and a sign proclaiming that religion is the opiate of the masses, or just a nice “holiday tree”, perhaps adorned with sparkly snowflakes decorated by a local kindergarten class?
Or perhaps we should just leave it with a nice display of Washington products and let everyone get back to work in the Capitol building. They’re a bit short-handed right now, and have more important things to worry about.
SeattleJew, look up Walter J Vieth.
128 Vieth
So I looked at a bot of what he has written. Either he does not understand molecular biology or he is being a curmodugeon.
MOST biologists beleive that evoluti9on occurs by reusing existing genes rather than mutation and the idea of nonsense DNA died a long time ago.
From what I read he seems to accept evolution but wants to make more of the Bible than others.
Surely, you can do better than that! Try reading Bryan Sykes Seven Daqughters of Eve … it is a pretty goood intro into how Man READS the Genome.
ok barelli, its hard to argue with your points. so, let me just get nostolgic (and i’m sure some will say bigoted). this country was founded by christians (and even oreilly is afraid of jewish backlash because he always says judeo-christian). i think back to the days (50’s and 60’s) when the milkman would walk right in your house, open your fridge and put the milk in, and now we have poeple saying holiday party, rappers who look like animals jumping around on stage, people suing the boyscouts, and hollywood dominated by creatins putting out shows that are degenerate. i just want my fucking country back. i’m afraid that wont happen until the revolution, which surely will come if we continue on this path (the econmomic one).
Manoftruth: Just look at the books in the NY Times Best 100. Funny how they forget some of the conservative best sellers.
Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, Doubleday Publishing Group, Bantam Dell, HarperCollins, Pearson, Random House, Simon & Schuster and Thomas Nelson Publishers
are laying off hundreds. Why? They publish books no one wants to read! Did any of you liberals buy Nancy Pelosi’s book?
@132 Puddy
Yep, porn sells.
nice try seattle jew, but who do you think is buying the porn? think elliott spitzer.
# 134: Or Bill O’Reilly. He must have gotten the idea for his novels – or what to do with louffas (sp?) from some really bad porn.
Barelli @ 128: Amen.
MOT @ 31: As I’ve mentioned (many times before), I am an Evangelical Christian who believes in seperation of Church and State. I think undue linkage between the two hurts the church as much (or more) than it hurts the state. Futhermore, although there are some things which a reasonably competent government can do better than private industry, religion isn’t one of them.
What benefit is there to display a nativity scene at the state capital? Does the mere site convert anyone, or meet their physical or spiritual needs? And in order to allow such a display, isn’t it counter-productive to argue that Christmas is a secular holiday, and such displays are essentially secular and therefore should be allowed?
I think we should do away with all holiday displays on state property. There are probably scores of churches, or private businesses, which could put up a prominant display on their own property without getting into these fights.
We are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off track.
The Nativity Scene is allowable.
So is the Atheist statement.
The issue is WHERE & WHEN.
That was 100% up to Governor Gregoire.
She is a coward.
Mr Cynical?
Where and when is not entirely up to Governor Gregoire. It’s a matter of equal access. Both groups want the same time period, and must both be given the same consideration.
Governor Gregoire cannot arbitrarily tell the atheists when their display can go up.
Of course, you really knew that. Your statement is just designed to stir folks up and cause arguments.
Much like the sign that the atheists insist on putting up.
John
This all seems so simple to me. Why not designate certain places as public for purposes of all forms of free speach. limitted only by existing law?
Personally, as Jew, I am not enthusiastic about this season and would rather NOT have our military holiday, Hannukah, confused with the birth of the Christian God or other solstice events.
BUT, what does tick me off is that our big holidays .. Passover and Rosh Hoshana, do not get equal opportunity for public notice. So, I would like to see the govmint designate certain places for ethnic/religious celebrations and invite any community to use these venues as long as they do not use them to insult each other or make other forms of hate speech.
BTW … Seattle Center ALREADY does this in nits weekly Festal program.
@134 who buys porn???
GOOD QUESTION!
I suspect Amazon knows the answer already. Hmmmm .. what other things do folks who buy OReilly also buy?
Since Sinis Ter is a data manager their he was able to smuggle oput some data, FASCINATING:
People who order OReilly also look at:
The Story of O
Hustler Highlights
Chronicles of GOR
Not to leave ouot libruls, Sinis also looked up the reading of folks who order Franken’s books:
In Favor of the Sensitive Man Anais Nin
Memoirs of a Geisha
Kama Sutra
I guess lots of folks like porn, though there may be a sublte difference in which sorts of Porn.
Thanks to Sinis for the data.
If Lee had been black in the 1950s during the civil rights movement he would have been one of those African-Americans who would’ve been aghast at Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, et al for upsetting racist white folks. Lee would say something like “you know you’re just going to upset them even more and the water is just as cold at the black water fountain”.
@142 tchao81
First, this was more the sixties than the 50s but in either case you were not there and I was (I presume?).
Second, the only folks I knew who said shit like that were Uncle Toms and honkeys who said stuff like that to get the rest of us off their necks. Since lee is Jewish, he doesn’t fit either role. I do not think any Yid wold have said that sort of thing in the sixties .. most of us were working for Dr. King.
The differences amongst us was in how radical we were. For example, I was a real asshole and felt the marchers were too conservative so my activities were a bit more (though not very) clandestine. Given Lee’s origins form Philly and obvious interests in liberal issues, he could have even signed up to infiltrate the south and gotten burned to death like the Mississippi Three.
Frankly, unlike Lee, most of the joiners of that day left their liberalism behind as they “grew up.” I suspect Lee would have been marching against the war (you know the one we fought to defeat Jane Fonda?) and …,
Oh well ask him!
seattle jew, in your post 143 you said you were down south in the 60’s during the civil rights movement. here’s why that annoys us (some of us) chrsitian white folks. i am going presume that you would agree with me that genetically, white christians are no more evil than jews or blacks or any other group or race. so that means that when it comes to civil rights, there should have been an equal representaion of all groups in fighting for civil rights. but, as you know, that was not true. jews were at the forefront in disproprtionate numbers. so why the disparity. because jews wanted to make discrimination one of the worst acts you can commit in our culture.(pretty much succeeded i would say). i dont believe in discrimination either, but people like yourself have trampled on the constitution, cost us billions extra in education, cost business’ billions in defending ridiculous discrmination lawsuits, added to business cost with sensitivity and diversity training, weakend police and military with mandatory placing of substandard recruits, and more i cant think of at this hour. in other words, you’d sacrifice everything so you wont be singled out, even if it means the rest of us can go to hell. i think you think all christians want to recreate the holocost. you’re wrong. but to me, your acts are selfish, you could have your survival in the greatest and fairest country the world has ever seen, but you want to ruin it for everybody.
@144 man of truth
Bottom line, you really should be ashamed of this post. These were American heroes who acted in the vest American tradition, bringing our own cultural strengths to this unique nation.
1. No I did not go south. Nor did I say that I did.
2. Jewish support for liberty has deep roots, it began long before the holocaust in the fights for freedom from the Romans, the Greeks, the inquisition. Many times Jewish thinkers have brought hate onto us by speaking the truth … Baruch Spinoza was excluded by Christians and Jews.
Where does this drive come from? Obviously not from fear because that route leads to assimilation. Rather it comes form a tradition of being “chosen” not for rewards but to uphold waht many today call humanism.
Once a year, we celebrate a holiday called Passover. Christians know it because of the tie to Easter but rarely understand its real meaning. For example, on that night we all eat a bitter herb. Why? We are told to tell our children, that the herb eaten to now how horrible slavery is so we will not tolerate it for anyone.
You should attend a Passover seder (many families welcome goyem)
.. you might learn a lot.
3. Jews like Lee, and many of those who worked so hard against discrimination, were and many still are “ethical Jews,” not ethnic and not religious. but accepting the traditions of service, freedom and learning that are rather deep in our tradition. They have no special commitment to the people, often marry outside the people and raise their kids as “white” but do retain this great tradition. Hardly the attitude your poisoned post suggests!
Many of the organizations supported by Jews or founded by Jews have no visible ties to us .. eg Medecin sans Frontiers. Jews also are major supporters of groups like the American Friends Service Committee and have served valiantly as soldiers in every cou .ntry that let us be free and equal.
These fights are not in the US alone, Jews have founded, led and joined movements of liberation from South Africa to Russia.
My advice to you is to visit a shul and meet some of us. We do not have horns, do not bite and really have no interest in converting you. We might, however, help you be a better Christian.
+++++++++++++++++++++
BTW
If you really want to reply, you might look at my blog. I ahve crossposted this there.
rhp6033: Bill O’Reilly books are porn? I guess I’ll keep reading “that” then.
Did you know Dick Morris’ Fleeced is on it’s 18th week as a NY Times bestseller, yet, they don’t mention it?
You are a whacked out lefty.
rhp6033: I guess Liberalism is a Mental Disorder, another Top 10 New York Times best-seller for several months after its release on April 12, 2005 must be porn to you. ISBN 1-59555-006-2.
I guess you ascribe to the Chucky Schumer argument that right-wing radio is porn.
What a waste of a mind you are rhp6033.
Puddy …
shame on you reading porn! Next thing I know you will be subscribing to Hustler for the essays .