The Saudi Arabian embassy in Beirut has called on its nationals to leave Lebanon a day after a US warship was positioned off the country’s coast.
The embassy on Saturday sent SMS messages to Saudis living in Lebanon urging them to leave the country as soon as possible, Al Jazeera’s correspondent said.
Israel vowed to press its campaign against militants in the Gaza Strip on Sunday despite an international outcry over the deadly onslaught that prompted even the moderate Palestinian leadership to cut off all peace talks.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vowed to continue the ground and air operation that has killed 71 Palestinians since Saturday following the death of one Israeli civilian last week and earned the Jewish state international condemnation for disproportionate use of force.
President Mahmud Ahmadinejad said in Baghdad on Sunday that the “Iranian and Iraqi nations will always stand by each other.”
In a news conference with his Iraqi counterpart Jalal Talabani, Ahmadinejad called his landmark visit to Iraq “a new page in the history of the relations between the two countries and cooperation in the region.”
The Iranian president arrived in Baghdad on Sunday morning and was received by Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari and national security adviser Muwaffaq al-Rubaie.
Talabani, who grinned broadly and eagerly shook Ahmadinejad’s hand, called the visit “historic”, AFP reported.
Throughout this decade, we’ve been led to believe that the first two stories are examples of freedom being on the march, while the third example is a setback. In reality, they’re all setbacks, with the third story being the indication of the failure of the approach used in the first two.
Ah yes FREEDOM… too bad your friends are fucking insane … luckily they have the FREEDOM to be so… which one is Katy, the first respectul one fingered or one of the skankier ones?
What’s up, doc? Do the trolls get automatic text messages when you start a new thread? They’re always the first to crap all over everything with their mental-diahriatic midgetry.
There’s a big war a brewing in the Mid East. Not the one Bush, Inc. started to increase long term profits, but another one led by Isreal. It’s gonna get a lot more ugly pretty quick. Five dollar gas, anyone?
HEY SLINGSHOT @2 WE COULD COME TO YOU HOUSE AND SHIT ON YOUR FLOOR.HOW BOUT THAT.
BOY THE DEMS SURE BROUGHT HOME THE BACON ON THAT TANKER DEAL.OH THATS RIGHT ITS DAVES FAULT.ONLY PROBLEM ITS NOT HIS DISTRICT.
They need thicker hats. The sun bakes their brains in that part of the world. The Middle East will never be a rational place, and it will never be possible to reason with people who live there. What we ought to do is invent the technologies that will make oil obsolete and stay the hell away from that place — let them wallow in their own manure until the Second Coming straightens it all out with a bunch of mushroom clouds.
@4 See #64 in the preceding thread. I’ll even save you the trouble of looking it up:
“Roger Rabbit says:
Boeing blew this deal at many levels, and now the wingnut morons want to blame the natural result of the company’s serial failures on our state’s Democratic senators and congressmen — so typical of the ‘personal responsibility’ crowd.
03/02/2008 at 12:00 pm “
@4 “Wingnut moron” fits you very well.
Not to mention this/these:
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/hot.....ers-in.php
http://www.menassat.com/?q=en/.....od-arrests
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41359
Lee ..
I agree these are all bad news, but you imply a somplicity that does not exist.
Lebanon
“Lebananon” has never existed. It sis one more artificial construction that does not work. There is a real chance that Syria will annex it. Personally I think such an annexation makes geopolitical sense but the i-librul consequences are severe. Democracy would end, Christians wiull be effectively dis-enfranchised. Ironically, lie Bush’s invasion of Iraq, the net effect is likely good for Israel?
The gaza story ..
What you left out is that a Gaza is governed by Hamas and they have been launching rockets on a regular basis at Israel. This is nOT a case of militant in Gaza, it is Hanas itself doing this.
The idea that there is some sort of rational response to rocket oattacks escapes reason. What would Seattle do if radicals in White Center launched rickets every day at West Seattle?
The Ahmadinejad visit story ..seems unrelated to the other two except, again ironically, that belatedly Iraq may have a path to peacew with Iran BECAUSE Bush overtruned the Sunni oligarch.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There is an opportun9ity but one liberals may not like:
1. W/O Iraqui support, The PLO has little prospect of staying in power unless Israel and Jordan support them. This can only happen iff …
2. Israel’s patience wears o0ut and togetehr with Egypt, they wipe out Hamas and invite the “legitimate” government of the PLO back.
3, Syria adsorbs Lebanaon, making the Plaestinians in the South THEIR problem. Syria’s main interest is in the golan and good relations with America. They do ntk want a war with Israel.
4. The new US Government sides with the Sunni, antidemocratic majority, from Syria to Jordan to SA to Egypt against the Shia DEMOCRACY of Iran and its Iraqi allies. Peace and semi nationhood is imposed on Palestine.
Peace at the price of democracy? Would the liberal world buy that? The Europeans would as long as it means oil.
RR @6
“Boeing blew this deal at many levels, and now the wingnut morons want to blame the natural result of the company’s serial failures on our state’s Democratic senators and congressmen — so typical of the ‘personal responsibility’ crowd.”
Well it’s easy to blame one of our Democrat Senators.
This is circa 2003, when mommy shoes thought that the Boeing deal was in the bag…..
http://murray.senate.gov/news. cfm?id=204226
The money quote?
” I’m proud to be able to bring this deal home not only for our workers, but for our tanker crews who truly are the backbone of America’s air power capability and who deserve the best equipment.”
Not only that, Patty “take credit” Murray was at the Everett plant on Friday, ready to bask in the glow of all the “hard work” she put in to “bring home the deal”…..
Except, she is as clueless as ever.
So blame Democrats?
Well at least this one…..because they’re her own words….
So why exactly is the third example bad news? Two democratically elected leaders of neighboring nations having a summit for the first time in decades? Granted, democracy in both Iran and Iraq is far from perfect, and civil liberties in both countries are seriously lacking by our standards. But why is a meeting between these two leaders a setback for freedom? Would it be a setback for freedom for the President of Iraq to meet with our current (or future) president, or for the President of Iran to do so?
“Mission Accomplished” and “Freedom is on the March” all over the Middle East, eh?
The Pianist
(a real musician)
(Not to be confused with being a bagpipe operator)
@9 Interesting view (skew) of the situation.
It’s the Europeans who shed their morals when it comes to procurring oil?
If the occupation of Iraq is good for Israel at all, it’s only good as long as American troops stay put. When (if) they leave, all bets are off for the whole region. At least Hussein was a known quantity. Although it’s a safe bet the troops won’t be leaving anytime soon; the invasion of Iraq is just one of the initial phases of a forward thrust scenario to establish American power in the crude oil zone for the peak oil era which is dawning as we speak.
Do you really believe Egypt would join forces with Israel against other Arabs/Muslims, even Hamas?
SeattleJew says:
Lee ..
I agree these are all bad news, but you imply a somplicity that does not exist.
Seattle Jew you make some interesting points of view and you are right there is not a simple solution to the Middle East. Lebanon did existed and a very beautiful country at that, but Syria had other plans and people will die for many years due to that plan.
Gaza story is not a story but a nightmare to a group of people and the expense of the whole Arab world. That turn in history change when Iraq invaded Kuwait and the United States injected this nation armed forces into the conflict.
Iraq is now into a major transformation to join the 21 Century and become a major power broker for Peace. The last two major conflicts that could take place are Syria and Iran. Right now Palestine is being to see the light at the end of the tunnel and some groups will not survive the journey.
Your commit; Peace at the price of Democracy? Would the liberal world buy that? The Europeans would as long as it means oil.
There will be no Peace unless the people have the power to make change, so you need some type of democratic or republic government.
What the hell does a liberal have to do with the course of events in another part of the world? They only muddy up the problem by interjecting bull shit and discouraging progress. Iraq is an example on how they would bring Peace to that region. Cut and Run it can be solved, let run home and hide behind mommies dress.
The Europeans have a greater stake in this problem than you allude to and oil is not the driving factor.
They have large populations in their country that are Muslim and will not leave until it is safer to return home. The French are facing the biggest problem and looking for viable solution to their plight. Europe has shut down their borders and illegals will find it hard to stay in their counties. Yes they are now using RFI devices in Europe after our success in Iraq. You are the next set of folks to be introduced to this technology. Whine but it will not help they are being dispense while we talk.
Folk’s oil prices will drop when Iraq starts producing oil. Now did we invade Iraq for oil or for Peace?
slingshot says:
@9 Interesting view (skew) of the situation.
It’s the Europeans who shed their morals when it comes to procurring oil?
If the occupation of Iraq is good for Israel at all, it’s only good as long as American troops stay put. When (if) they leave, all bets are off for the whole region. At least Hussein was a known quantity. Although it’s a safe bet the troops won’t be leaving anytime soon; the invasion of Iraq is just one of the initial phases of a forward thrust scenario to establish American power in the crude oil zone for the peak oil era which is dawning as we speak.
Do you really believe Egypt would join forces with Israel against other Arabs/Muslims, even Hamas?
03/02/2008 at 3:25 pm
Slingshot Egypt has more to lose if they don’t support Israel, beside the Arab world today is not the same as it was back in 1967 when Israel invaded Egypt. The Egyptians that I know don’t want any more crazy wars at their expense. Yes we will be in the Middle East for many years no matter who is elected into the white house. The occupation of Iraq is good for all of the Middle East and a great catalyst for change that no other nation could introduce. Yes Europeans was there with us for they were in the same command center I was in Qatar.
#6 Not as big of a stretch as hurricane Katrina being
all Bushs’ fault. All that union money pilfered from
the workers and given to democrats who claim they “care”.
Why you small brain sheeple can’t see it is beyond me.
mark says:
#6 Not as big of a stretch as hurricane Katrina being
all Bushs’ fault. All that union money pilfered from
the workers and given to democrats who claim they “care”.
Why you small brain sheeple can’t see it is beyond me.
Mark what party is the governor of Louisiana belongs to today? How many of those folks with their hand in the till are serving jail time? Maybe Katrina was the best thing that ever happens to that state. The reason small brain sheep can’t see is the reason why you need a sheepdog to protect them from the wolves.
@12: Jim
good point – what happened to spreading dmocracy all over the Middle East – the liars in the bush administration are still backtracking on that one – starting in Saudi Arabia.
Let’s see: Hamas was elected by the palestinians
Lebanon had elections
Iraq had elections
Were there any other free and fair elections in the Middle east – and all the trouble spots are where?
Boy…I just love that klake. Ya gotta love a guy that won’t let a little thing like “facts” get in the way of a stupid rant.
Rujax! says:
Boy…I just love that klake. Ya gotta love a guy that won’t let a little thing like “facts” get in the way of a stupid rant.
03/02/2008 at 4:46 pm
Sunny how about presenting the “facts”. Oh I forgot you have to check them out on move-on-dot.org?
@9
What would Seattle do if radicals in White Center launched rickets every day at West Seattle?
If it were Israel, it would wall off all of south Seattle into a giant prison, cut off medical supplies and power sources and think that this is going to fix the problem.
Here’s a quick guide for salvaging American interests in the Middle East:
1.) Regardless of who wins, the next American president needs to reevaluate this nation’s relationship with Israel. Whether we like it to admit it or not, they can handle things on their own now, and the blind eye our government has turned on them for the last 60 years is the largest single reason the Muslim world is so enraged with the US.
And it doesn’t help that the current Administration is dominated by Premillenialists (starting right at the top with Bush and Cheney), who believe that…..well, go read up on Premillenialism yourself. It’s fucking nuts. In so many words, the Jews of Israel are to be protected at all costs in their world, for when Jesus comes back, they’re the first to get killed off. Yeah, that’s fucking nuts. Back to the countdown!
While the US should not abandon Israel, we should not be their enablers either. Forcing Israel to play nice (though wiping out Hamas ain’t a bad idea) with their neighbors will be the first, possibly largest step in lessening tensions in the region.
2.) Rethink Iraq. SJ, the only ‘unreal’ nation in the Middle East is Iraq. You can lay ultimate blame for the quagmire that is Irag not at the feet of the current Adminstration, but at the British, who were largely responsible for the parceling out of the territories of the former Ottoman Empire to local tribes after WW1. Some of it went reasonably well (i.e. the Hasemites of Jordan and the Alawites of Syria), but Iraq was a boondoggle from Day One. The ONLY reason that the notion of Iraq ever held together was due to the neofascist Ba’athists after WW2. The Ba’ath Party held Iraq together much like Tito’s Communists did with Yugoslavia. Take out the strongman, and the old ethnic tensions resurface.
So what does the next Administration do? IMHO, pull out of the Sunni and Shi’a parts of Iraq, and leave say, 50k troops in the Kurdish north to help train local police and military, not to mention eliminating the neomarxist PKK terrorist group, while simultaneously negotiate with the neighbors of a potential Kurdish state (Turkey, Iran, and throw in Russia for good measure). Turkey’s rather nasty nationalistic streak could be ameliorated by a peaceful (read: PKK-free) Kurdish state, and Persian Iran would probably have no problem ceding a small chunk of territory for ridding itself of an ethnic group they never really liked.
3.) As for Iran, give them their nuclear program, on two conditions:
Cease support and funding of terror groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad,
Establish peaceful relations with the State of Israel.
Not as far-fetched as you might think. When Hussein’s Iraq threatened the region as a whole Israel and Iran’s intelligence services were more than willing to cooperate out of mutual self-interest. The establishment of a detente, a relationship based on the Cold War-era MAD theory (mutually assured destruction) between Iran and Israel could greatly lessen tensions in the region as a whole. And who cares is Iran develops nuclear weapons? Israel can defend itself with its own nuclear arsenal, and we need not get involved.
4.) Curb Wahhabi influence. Look around the global map of Islamic terrorism. If Iran isn’t funding it, Saudi Arabia is. Well, not the government. At least we don’t think the House of Saud is openly involved. But Wahhabi monies are funding not only al-Qaeda, but Islamist movements from Europe to Southeast Asia. The House of Saud is caught in the Catch-22 of its official role as defenders of the Wahhabi branch of Sunni Islam, while trying to keep its adherents from following Wahhabi teachings to spread its austere, ultra-conservative form of Islam throughout the world at all costs.
Okay, so it wasn’t quick. And it ain’t gonna be easy. But the man who can pull that off will be a greater man than any of us.
@13 Slingshot
For better or worse, the US is still much less dependeent of Arab Oil than is Europe. And, again FWIW, I believe tyhat a large part of contemporar5y antisemitism in Europe is an amoral siding with the Arab oil providers.
As for Egypt siding with Israel .. if you look at what I wrote, the scenario is that the Sunni, oligarchic majority binds an alliance against the democratic forces of Shiiism and the Islamic Brotherhood. I stated it this way to point out that peace, should come this way, may be morally difficult to accept for many.
The role of Israel in such a comity of interest is actually NOT hard to imagine. These countries are r8uled by oligarchies that want #1 to stay in power. The effort to ethnically cleanse Israel (that is the honest goal of the irridentist forces) is driven by many forces, traditional antisemitism, the imperialistic concept of the Ummaya, and the utility of Israel as a unifying cause. OTOH, much the same can be said of the disdaihn Sunni have for the Shia. A politcal solution of cold peace that allows the Sunni oligarchs to maintain control is likely to be very attractive to them.
Finally, the idea of an American colocnization of Iraq et all is a false dream of the left put forward to explain the inexplicable incompetence of GWB. No serious military source of geopolitical analyst thinks this is a plausible scenario. The best the uS might hope for is some sort of alliance with other oil consuming countries that brings stability to the region. Are you ready for the Chinese?
Klake Lee … you embarass us true neolibs by your superficial, inane statements of the ideas of the real right. I wonder if you are not a sock puppet for some libtard like Lee?
Here is the RIGHT POV:
Seattle Jew you make some interesting points of view and Lebanon did existed and a very beautiful country at that, No way! Lebanon has not existed since pre-roman times. Like a lot of libtard sock puppets you pretend to think we righties do not know the difference between the Holy Bible and history. Lebanon was created, much like Israel, to give the non Muslim minority a place to call home! As long as it was rules by good Christians it was very successful.
Gaza story is not a story but a nightmare to a group of people and the expense of the whole Arab world. That turn in history change when Iraq invaded Kuwait and the United States injected this nation armed forces into the conflict. Whoever is using a sockpuppet to pretend that a conservative would actully be this dumb needs to find a better source of weed.
Iraq is now into a major transformation to join the 21 Century and become a major power broker for Peace. Iraq is a basket case because libtard GWB, pretending to be something called a compassionate conservative wasted trillions of of US dollars indebting us to the Chicoms. What true Reaganite could even imagine such a thing? The bad part is that thanks to that turncoat Webb we do not have George Allan running for Pres. Isn’t it obvious that Webb and McCain were both brainwashed in ‘nam!
Right now Palestine is being to see the light at the end of the tunnel and some groups will not survive the journey.
Tunnel, you mean the one4s bringing in arms form Egypt?
Look this is the REAL scoop. The pan is for the Hamasniks, egged on by double agents in Egypt who ship them arms, t do soke much stupid stuff that Israel sends in a phalanx of the new Caterpillar Giganto Armored Dovers. The things arr so big, so heavy than IED’s are useless. A chain of the MF will move south al,ong the Gaza strip squeezing the Palestinians into Egypt like tooth paste. Egypt, of course will claim to be SHOCKED, SHOCKED but not until 3/4 of their “brothers” are DOA. Then Egypt will geenmrously offer to accept Israe4li help in building a Monaco East resort there.
The Europeans have a greater stake in this problem than you allude to and oil is not the driving factor.
They have large populations in their country that are Muslim and will not leave until it is safer to return home. The French are facing the biggest problem and looking for viable solution to their plight. Europe has shut down their borders and illegals will find it hard to stay in their counties. Yes they are now using RFI devices in Europe after our success in Iraq. You are the next set of folks to be introduced to this technology. Whine but it will not help they are being dispense while we talk. Black helichopsticks too??? BTW … sockpuppet klake, the Muslims kin Europe ain’t from the middle east! They are form N Africa and Trurley … bit to a lib like you one rag head looks like another!
Folk’s oil prices will drop when Iraq starts producing oil. Now did we invade Iraq for oil or for Peace?
@9 SeattleJew said:
““Lebananon” has never existed. It sis one more artificial construction that does not work.”
er, don’t you mean “Israel” ?
@21 Lee
“If it were Israel, it would wall off all of south Seattle into a giant prison, cut off medical supplies and power sources and think that this is going to fix the problem. ”
OK. We agree this is a bad idea. So, the alternatives would be?
What of we got Billy G ot write a check ofr 100000 to each of the radicals .. let say there are (to make this roughly consistent with the middle east, 100, 000 people living in the radical enclave or whom perhaps 10,000 belong to the Rads. Would that m4an Billy G would give 100k to all 100,000 WC folks or just to the Rads? Hmmm the latter is just a billion dollars? Not bad if it worked.
But, I do not think Billy is gonna do that so what else can Seattle do? Seattle could call in some nukes? or maybe offer to turn over Hunt’s Point to the radicals? Or maybe build a wall around them and see if we canh starve them out?
Look, there is one obvious fact here. If the Palestinians insist on irridentism, they will not survive … but they mauy take a lot of other people with them. Hamas, unfortunately, is 100% consistent in its goals.
When the left supports Hamas, it IS NOT supporting the Palestinian people.
@26
OK. We agree this is a bad idea. So, the alternatives would be?
Not to use collective punishment. It doesn’t work. Instead, you give the people of the area the kind of faith in your authority in order to have them help you isolate and arrest the people shooting the rockets.
@26
When the left supports Hamas, it IS NOT supporting the Palestinian people.
We don’t have a choice Steve. This is who the Palestinians elected to lead them. We don’t have to like Hamas, but we have to deal with them. If we want more moderate people in the Palestinian territories to win out, we have to stop treating all Palestinians as if they’re criminals.
@25
No. Israel existed as late as 70 AD and the Jews of the area have been a continuous presence since that time.
The Jews who came there under the Zionism movement, did have demonstrable genetic and cultural connection albeit one that was interrupted by the Roman and later Christian efforts at ethic cleansing. Curiously under a number of muslim rulers, beginning with Umar himself (3rdcaliph and conqueror of the Christian occupied Palestine) Jews were highly enocuraged to return to Israel. So, when he liberated Israel from the Christians in the late 600s, Umar made noi effort to implant an Arab population but did try to attract the Jews back.
In contrast the Lebane4se as a distinct historical people ce4sed to exist at least 2500 years ago and noone claimed that idenmtity up until the modern creation of Lebanon.
BY 48, when Israel was crated or recreated, there was functional Israeli people with a shared ethic identity … Lebanon, in contrast, was not an ethnic community of any sort, though it does have many groups within it. Quite the same thing can be said og Iraq, Jordan and Plaestine which had no historical meaning common ehtnicity when the Christians created there states.
BTW, the same was true of the Palestinians. In Arabic Palestinian is Phillistine. The word was invented by the Romans referring to the ancient sea people who were defunct by the time Rome came. When they cleansed the land of Jews (or teid to) the Romans tried to create a new entity called Phillistia (Palestine). No great lover sof the Romansm, the Srabs rejected that term until 1948! In common usage before then, Palestinians meant “Israeli Jew.”
@28
Lee
What the e4lction of Hamas need to tech us is that Friedmann and his ilk are wrong. Free elections do not necessarily lead to peace. People can and do vote for war. Just think, who elected GWB or worse, how did Hitler come to power?
Hamas WAS legitimately elected and could have used their power to achieve peace. Instead they reneged on the very agrements that made their elections possible and have consiotently refused to negotiate woth Israel on any terms that include recogtnition of Israel’s right to exist.
Hitler’s negotiations with Chamberlain and the pOles comes to mind as a precedent.
You know my beliefs on this matter. Supporting Hamas , even elected ones, is wrong. The only thing that can work is a firm commitment by the external powers, esp Europe, US, Russia, and China. to the economic development of Jordan to create an attractive alternative to the apartheid that (as JC said) does exist now.
My hope is that BHO will use his amazing prestige to send a new peace maker to the area on day one. Perhaps this could be bill Clinton. That person will have first create an alliance of the external powers that be to agree to ignore any Palestinian, even elected folks, who are not willing to work together with Jordan, Israel and .. the external powers to create prosperity along the Jordan and to the east of that ancient ditch. Israel’s security problmes would not be solved over noght, but the new critical issue would bhe the creation fo an economy ott he east that rivals Israels .. then Friedman’s concept of prosperity making peace could work.
Try this idea out in your head in re my White Center scenario.
Lets hope.
@27 Not only has Israel done that, it does it now on the West Bank. Hams has refused. BTW the new generation oj rockets hitting Ashkelon, are officially the product of Hamas itself.
One of the people just killed by the israelis was the commander of a rocket brigade and the son of a Hamas leader.
I do not see who you think from Hams would do what you want? Since I run the fictional rads of right center, I know WE will nto negotiate with you until you agree to our terms … we want Hunts Point, Capital Hill. Microsoft, the UW and the areas within 1000 feet of Elliot Bay to be ours.
@22 Bway Joe
In a general way we agree. There are a few exceptions.
First, Israel has no existence unless supported by the US. Not a pleasant fact but real.
Second, many of the Arab states are as cocked up as Iraq .. Lebanon, Kuwait and Jordan are fictions. So is “Palestine.” in practical terms, no one should take these imposed nations too seriously. I suspect that Lebanon will ine day be part of Syria, Palestine will be Jordan.
Third I agree with most of what you say about Iraq. One thing to consider is that with enough time, this regiosn could evolve its own version of the EU. It now seems likely that the EU may allow European tribes to re-eemrhe as sovereign nations … Wales. Flanders, Catalonia, Lomabardy, Scicily make at least as much sense as Rhode Island, Canada, Puerto Rico, etc.
We are close together on Iran. The West fails to understand that Iran does have a form of democracy that is very much more democratic than the systems we support in many Latin American countries or perhaps even oligarchal democracies like Japan and Malaysia. Finding ways toi encourage Iran to develop its new system makes more sense then hoping the Party will divest itself of power in China.
I do not agree, however, about the nukes in Iran. There is real distinction between nukes and other kinds of weaponry. The US needs ot build an alliance with China, Russia and Europe to to both downgrade our own arsenals and to make the possession of nuclear weapons so expensive that it will be strategically stupid for all but the mightiest of nations to have nuke forces of their own. Put another way, if Secretary of State Richardson could so do so, I wouild like him to call ameeting with China and annuce a Sino-American plan for containment of nuclear weapons. Under this plan any nation agreeing to not be armed would have guarenteed access to the seas and the fuel market. Their se=overeignity would be guanteed by the uS and China acting as agents of the UN. Any nation NOT agreeing to these terms would be taxed by limiting its access to fule and sea transport.
At the time of the announcement, I would assume that Russia and Europe would have already signed on and accepted some sort of ancillary status. India, Israel, N. Korea, Cuba, Brazil, Pakistan, Iran, Ukraine, and Microsoft would all be offered terms to surrender any existing weapons or be subject to the tarrifs.
It’s about fucking time Israel responded with a little overwhelming force. To just play the tit-for-tat game shows total weakness to the Arabs. They only understand brutal force.
SeattleJew: How do you propose this?: “Their sovereignty would be guaranteed by the US and China acting as agents of the UN. Any nation NOT agreeing to these terms would be taxed by limiting its access to fuel and sea transport.
Who will be the pirates of the seas? – Letting China police the seas? Yeah, right.
Who will be the policeman of the seas? You libs cry how America shouldn’t be the world’s policemen yet this sounds strangely similar.
Seattle Jew:
Now you see the true antisemitic colors of your liberal “friends” show up when Israel has to fight for its life.
Whatever, the OP citing the Israel story is a non-sequitor about “freedom on the march”. It’s about a tiny country defending itself from fascists terrorist scumbags. Do you have a problem with that Lee?
33 FreedomLover
Israel is, as yu might have noticed, a Jewish country. As a people, we have been governed by LAW for 2500 yea4rs and those laws do not allow the sorts of atrocities you seem to want.
Itzhak Rabin, asked to explain his handshake with Arafat said ..
What choice did I have?
We could wipe out the Palestinians, but then how wold we ..thge Jew3s live with that memory?
We could maintain a garrision state forever, but what happens to the role of Israel in Jewish tradition if our heroe4s are soldiers not scientists?
We could seek peace.
(quoted with liberties)
@34 Puddy
I consider myself a patriot and a realist. Like ti or not China WILL be a superpower this century. This leaves us three choices:
1. Oppose them on our own.
Do you really think we have that kind of resources?
2. Build an Alliance of the Brave to oppose them. Have you noticed a stroing movement of this sort across the globe?
3. Work with them and with other nations to create a peaceful new world order.
Since 1 and 2 are not possible, I suggest any patriot would choose 3.
35, 36 antisemitism of the right and left.
Tell you what bobbelah, there is plenty enough antisemitism on both sides to make Jews want to stick together.
Moreover there are real moral issues that work against Israel. The Zionists, very much libruls, built this place at a time when Europeans, conservatives, “knew” they had certian kinds if rights that others did not have. The Zionists felt, rationally that we had the same rights as Frenchmen, Germans, etc enjoy to have a home country. Since there was no people other than us claiming this land, the idealistic concept of a rebirth seemed wonderful. The Libruols built Israel on assumptions that we now associate with conservatives .. white man’s burden, etc.
The dream was of a Jewish state where non Jews could live freely as fellow citizens. That is still the dream today.
The initial sources of failure of the dream, so far, are within Christian conservatism rather than Islam. We have lived within Islamic rule for over a millenium, mostly peacefully. The caliph Umar, conqueror of Jerusalem, invited the Jews to come home. This was before the European/Christian inventions of Shylock, the denigration of the Pharisees, etc. Unfortunately, in 48, the Mufti of Jeruslaem, himself a former Nazi, led a holy war that failed to wipe us out.
Israel was born largley with liberal support and has .. until recently … been opposed by the right and by Christians. Today Hillary Clinto9n’s own Church is opposed to Israel. The Vatican refuses to reoognize Israel’s right sot govern its own land, and Europeans will trade a lier of petrol for a liter of Jewish blood any day.
So where is a poor Jew, hardened in the fires of Warsaw to never agins accept the death camps, where is that Jew supposed to turn?
Look at your own effin president. FOR SEVEN years he left this problme untouched. Should we trust in the Christians? Look at your own hate filled words? Is it better to trust the new friend who offers to fight beside you or the one who says lets work together to find peace?
@30
What the e4lction of Hamas need to tech us is that Friedmann and his ilk are wrong. Free elections do not necessarily lead to peace. People can and do vote for war. Just think, who elected GWB or worse, how did Hitler come to power?
No, free elections do not always lead to peace. But they also do not occur in a vacuum. The election of Hamas is the direct result of how Israelis have been dealing with the Palestinians.
Seattle Jew:
You liberal Jews are totally insane. You live in some alternate universe if you think Israel’s problem is conservative Christian Republicans rather then people like you trying to ramrod Israel up the ass.
Lee:
Once again, it’s Israel’s fault. It’s always someone else’s fault, never their own responsibility. Always trying to ram Israel up the ass.
@42
It’s always someone else’s fault, never their own responsibility.
And how is this different from how you view Israel? Just because Israel has faced terrorism does not mean that they’re not responsible for how they respond to it.
By the way, for you to be accusing both SeattleJew and myself (I have a number of relatives in Tel Aviv) of “trying to ram Israel up the ass” is truly idiotic.
@40 Hamas
Causes have causes.
Hamas exists because the PLO was and probably is corrupt as hell. Hamas is a branch of the Muslikm Bortoerhood that arose to overthrow the oligarchy of Egypt. The PLO was created by that oligarchy to overthrow Israel via a war of attrition once Nasser realized ordinary war would not work. Palestine itself came into existence because the Jordanians and Egyptians invaded and occupied the West Bank in 48. The Zionists built Israel on liberal terms because they believed in 19th century ideas of Marxism and nationality, Syria (as a province of the Ottomans) was colonized by the incompetent Caliphate. .,, ,,, the caliphhate came into existance because the Byzantines never figured out how to keep the Roman Empire running. The prophet …
Remind me of on kid one kid.
Look, you, Jimmy Carter, and I all share a belief that the Palestinians are victims. As you know the great majority of Israel wants peace .. and is willing to give up a lot, including Jerusalem. But …..
When you diss Israel for over-reacting (?) without offering any ideas about how pe4ace might be achieved, whaat end do you serve?
Hamas illustrates some very worrisome faults with the liberal consensus you and I share:
1. Free elections do nto necessarily lead to peace. People will and do vote against their own interests.
2. Peace may only come at the expense of justice.
3. Some problemjs have NO good solutions.
So, like you my heart goes out to the Palestinians and I regard them as brothers and sisters.
Since railing at them can not bring peace, I look for whatever levers there may be to break the existing mold. The one I see is the community of interest between the Sunni oligarchs ,,, from SA to Egypt to Syria and the real political needs of the Powers that be.
In thaty spirit, it seems to me that the MOST immoral folks in all this are the Europeans who, despite their massive guilt for WW II, seem all to willing to sacrifice the Jews of israel ihn return for a few more years of oil. I aslo despise the oligarchs who are willing to trde their people’s well buildoing for useless jets and missels.
So, I am of Peace Now and my consistent argument is that all efforts need to be made to enforce peace. You can not do that by crusshing the Palestinian people and they can nto go non living this way. BUT, tolerating Wahabi-ism and Muslim poverty is no answer either. So .. the SJ proposal:
All good people should join in creating jobs for the Palestinians and Jordanians. These jobs should NOT be available to terrorists and should require a commitment to living peacefully.
Looik at at ti this way … for a fraction of amonth’s war in Iraq, we could invest enough $$ in Jordan to turn that place into a commercial sucess!
Fianlly, let me try to invoke China. These guys are not dunbies. they know war is harmful. They wnat to buy oil. We have the power to ceate a price for that oil .. join us in creating a Pax for the Holy land. Dusarm Pakistan and Iran (and Israel)’s nukes, uniletrrally declare the MidEast Nukefree. WE have that power, the US alkohne does not.
Freedom Lover ..
Waht folks like you will never understand is that Lee and I, though differing in many ways about how we use our tradtions, share the Jewish tradition of Justice.
Israel without Justice is not worth having. BTW, you might note that it is the Jews who alw3ays fight for other popele’s freedom. The only senior officer of the ANC with wihite skin wqas a Jew even tyhough Mandela sided with the PLO. We fought side by side with other true Americans against the Jim Corw world. In Europe today we stand with the turks and the North Africans seeking THEIR rights. That si what WE are taught.
@44
When you diss Israel for over-reacting (?) without offering any ideas about how pe4ace might be achieved, whaat end do you serve?
Peace will be achieved faster if Israel stops overreacting. And peace will be achieved when the Palestinian leadership has a reason to trust the Israeli leadership (and vice versa). I believe that both Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton understood this. I don’t believe the current President does. Right now, the Bush Administration is using Israel as part of its larger aims of trying to intimidate the entire Middle East into submission. This is what my initial post is referring to. Using this strategy is a failure in itself.
Lee,
I think you are confusing very different issues.
The incompetence and neglect by the Bushitties is likely tied in with their millenial expectations of the Iraq war. I am less copacetic then you as to Clint9on or Bushy I, All that, however, has little to dow tih what you keep asking for.
My problem is that you are never specific in what you would like Israel to do. You criticize and say that Israel needs to earn the trust of Hamas but you never say what that might mean. Be specific!
So, what would a measured response to the rockets hitting Ashkelon be? How long would you, if you were in command, exercise your measured response before your next measure?
I am NOT saying Israel should get a free pass, but criticism ought to be accompanied by a proposal for what they can do!
In the meantime, I think we would both agree that the next President should send Michelle Obama, Bill Clinton, Jesse Jackson, Howard baker, or someone of that rank to the area and leave then there until peace erupts.
So, what would a measured response to the rockets hitting Ashkelon be?
Identifying the particular culprits and working with the Hamas government to have them turned over. Is that a perfect solution? No. Is it guaranteed to work? No. Does it bring the region closer to peace than what the Israelis are doing right now? Absolutely.
I think the obvious thing here is that Israel can not solve these problems on their own. They need the United States to be the good cop to their bad cop. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration only knows how to be the bad cop, and they think being a good cop is a weakness. And if the next American administration does not change this approach, Israel’s future is very much in doubt.