Only one of the Democratic candidates for president represents the American center, which is where the Democratic Party needs to be if it is to be trusted with national power.
That candidate is Sen. Joe Lieberman. He is not doing well with the Democratic faithful, but in the opinion of this page, he would make the best candidate for a return to centrist politics.
He is experienced on foreign affairs, which Sen. John Edwards is not, and on domestic affairs, which Gen. Wesley Clark is not. He is calm, which Howard Dean is not. He waffles, but not as much as Sen. John Kerry.
Lieberman is a mainstream Democrat on favoring abortion rights and benefits for gay partners, affirmative action and civil liberties, and on opposing drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. This page agrees with him on all those things, as well as his realism in foreign policy. He voted for the war resolutions of 1991 and 2002.
He is also a fairly strong advocate of free trade, which best fits the economic interests of this region and, we believe, the United States. Lieberman supported free trade with Canada and Mexico, WTO membership for China and fast-track negotiating authority for further trade agreements. This year, these have become minority positions in his party.
Lieberman was one of the founders of the New Democrats, a group that calls for “progressive ideas, mainstream values and innovative, market-based policy solutions.”
Bill Clinton, whom this page endorsed twice, was that sort of Democrat, and he carried this state.
Washington voters have elected such New Democrats as Sen. Maria Cantwell, Reps. Rick Larsen, Jay Inslee, Adam Smith and Brian Baird; Gov. Gary Locke and Snohomish County Executive Aaron Reardon.
The center is not where most of the presidential candidates are this year. Their favorite theme has been the evil rich. Edwards calls it the “Two Americas”
And Now Joe is running as an Independent. It is time to punish him. Strip him of his committees. Attack him for being out of touch with voters. It is time to define core values for our party.
It will be hard to beat Joe AND the Republican in this race. Give early and often. Ned Lamont is a clear alternative to the policies of Lieberman. Lets send a message about what we want to hear from politicians.
Whoah. You had me going their Goldy. I was like huh? Up until I read “Update…”
Good one. Well played, ol’ chap, well played…
I started reading and my jaw was literally dropping to the floor. Thank you for the update before it became unhinged.
Not so good, until the update.
Liberals must arm. Not tomorrow, or next week, but now – while you can still acquire guns without the government knowing who has them.
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 8/7/06@ 11:53 pm
Roger you are stretching the truth again about the National Guard. Where is your Church Roger you know the one you boast about, the Church of Liberalism? Your friends today will end the Democrat Party and introduce the new Socialist Democrat Party after Joe Lieberman defeat tonight. Now the Republicans will only have to deal with the extremist Left and the Communist that jump party line to win. Lenin’s idiots finally got a hold in this government threw the Democrat Party. Roger did you and your friends go to Paris France with John Kerry and sell off this country in order to gain power? Roger what is your real fears today, knowing you are a traitor to this country principles, values, and traditions?
Maybe JOE was the reason democrats never took back the white house in 2000 , maybe it wasn’t Nader , but a centrist policy of status quo . Maria Cantwell get a clue , anti-war democrats in Wash state do matter , get us out of Iraq now .
In the NYT this morning:
“Reid and Schumer will back Lamont, but the big question is if they will approach Joe about dropping out, because they don’t want to get his back up against the wall,” said a senior Senate Democratic aide who was involved in the Reid-Schumer discussions but was not authorized to discuss them publicly.
Joe’s so filled with hubris that he’ll probably threaten to vote with the Republicans, if he doesn’t get his way. Reid and Schumer show call his bluff, if he does. Lieberman is relying on an old poll to make himself look viable, but that poll was done when he had a big lead in the primary.
Time for a new survey.
By announcing that he is an Independent, Lie-berman is no longer a Democrat. He must be stripped of all Democratic committee assignments and be ousted from the Democratic Caucus. As far as the danger of Joe voting with the Republicans, that ship has already sailed.
10.
I wanted to say he’d caucus with the Republicans, but I don’t think the GOP calls it that. It makes a difference to getting votes on the floor if Joe literally goes to the dark side. Take the pension bill, with the estate tax and minimum wage tacked on, as an example
But, I think it is right to strip joementum of his perks in the Democratic caucus if he insists on running as an Independent.
Senator Lieberman lost his primary in Connecticut this evening to Ned Lamont. He has had his chance to prove to the voters of Connecticut that he has listened to them on the war in Iraq, on which justices should sit on the Supreme Court, and on basic bread-and-butter issues – in short, that he still represented them.
He failed.
But instead of accepting the decision of the people of Connecticut, he has instead decided to run an independent campaign for the Senate, speaking of “unity” and “purpose”. Instead, his actions this evening are bound to sow division rather than create a sense of unity. His actions are little more than placing personal aggrandizement ahead of the greater good.
In short, Senator Lieberman has become a sore loser.
He prefers focusing on the image in his mirror rather than focusing on the needs of his constituents and his party.
I am asking that each of you contact Senators Murray and Cantwell tomorrow morning and every single day from now until they state publicly that Senator Lieberman should withdraw from the Connecticut Senate race.
I am also asking that you contact Senator Chuck Schumer, who is running the DSCC this election cycle, to make it clear that he should also not only do the same as Senators Murray and Cantwell, but should make it clear publicly to Senator Lieberman that, as an independent, he no longer has the support of the Democratic Party.
Toll Free Phone Numbers:
(866) 808-0065
(888) 355-3588
Senator Lieberman’s attempt to run an independent campaign will take away money needed for local Congressional and statewide campaigns in Connecticut at a time when every seat in the Congress counts. It will exacerbate tensions between moderates and liberals within our party. And it will, in the end, become a vortex for cash, energy and organizational effort that would be better spent on other campaigns across the nation.
Senator Lieberman can leave the field with honor, or he can be dragged off of the political stage, leaving a twisted and diminished remnant behind of what he once represented.
We must force our Senators and our party to make it clear which choice Senator Lieberman should take.
It is time for Lieberman to stop thinking only about Lieberman.
Help break his mirror.
Rich Erwin
Vice Chair: Membership
41st LD Democrats
Joe has now paid for his dishonest Iraq vote. Next in line, Maria Cant(govern)well!
I’m sick of Dems who say let’s hold people responsible for this war – oh, we mean let’s hold only Republicans responsible for this war.
Cant(govern)well put her political ambitions ahead of the country by voting to go to war (yeah, it’s shorthand for what she technically did, but that’s a distinction without a difference). The Washington political machine said “vote for the war or get labeled ‘soft on terror.'” A few congresscritters didn’t listen; but Maria has the blood of hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis on her hands as a result of her vote. She does not deserve to remain in office.
It’s time to vote the warmongers out!!!
If there were a line, Maria wouldn’t be close to being next in it.
No comparison between Joe and Maria.
..Cut off your nose to spite your face…
You guys are dim; the more you go left, the more chances you give the GOP. We arent’ as far right as you are far left, thus letting us elect GW
Hey righties you gonna vote for the socialist? How do you republican trolls feel about socialism? Are you going to vote against McDermott? Cause if you do, his challenger knows a little something about the left. Beren is a former socialist! Man I can’t wait to watch the righties try to spin this. Doesn’t matter since Congressman for Life McDermott gets about 80% of the vote most times. Still – it shows how bad off the righties are.
Hey righties you gonna vote for the socialist? How do you republican trolls feel about socialism? Are you going to vote against McDermott? Cause if you do, his challenger knows a little something about the left. Beren is a former socialist! Man I can’t wait to watch the righties try to spin this. Doesn’t matter since Congressman for Life McDermott gets about 80% of the vote most times. Still – it shows how bad off the righties are.
Commentby LeftTurn— 8/9/06@ 7:52 am
LeftTurn the righties as you call them don’t live in his neck of the woods. The righties really don’t care about Bagdad McDermott or his Socialist views, becacuse they don’t live next door with his friends. You know Moa, Pol Plot, and Stalin etc..
And Now Joe is running as an Independent. It is time to punish him. Strip him of his committees. Attack him for being out of touch with voters. It is time to define core values for our party.
It will be hard to beat Joe AND the Republican in this race. Give early and often. Ned Lamont is a clear alternative to the policies of Lieberman. Lets send a message about what we want to hear from politicians. Commentby surf logs kill— 8/9/06@ 1:02 am
Yes really intelligent. America sees this and wow the moonbats are really batty.
One may conclude that Lieberman’s running as an independent candidate in November might hurt Lamont’s chances and help a Republican challenger because the Democratic vote in the state may be fragmented. Could it be that tossing-out Joe L. will actually do just the opposite of what the primary voters of CT intended?
By announcing that he is an Independent, Lie-berman is no longer a Democrat. He must be stripped of all Democratic committee assignments and be ousted from the Democratic Caucus. As far as the danger of Joe voting with the Republicans, that ship has already sailed. Commentby Brenda Helverson— 8/9/06@ 6:35 am
You forget about Bernie Sanders (I) VT. He votes moonbat and plays in the moonbat sandbox!
One may conclude that Lieberman’s running as an independent candidate in November might hurt Lamont’s chances and help a Republican challenger because the Democratic vote in the state may be fragmented. Could it be that tossing-out Joe L. will actually do just the opposite of what the primary voters of CT intended?
The GOP has a joke of a candidate in CT. It’s Ned or Joe, and much of Joe’s support in the primary is scrambling to show they’re with Ned. I suspect Lieberman will withdraw from the race by Labor Day.
I hadn’t paid a lot of attention to the Lieberman race. After all, he is the Senator from CT, not WA.
But it does bring up an interesting scenario, one that doesn’t appear very often. As both parties abandon the center and move to their “base”, it does leave quite a few potential voters in the center frustrated. A lot of those on the left assume that they will vote overwhelming Democratic out of frustration with the Republicans. I hope so, but I’m not convinced that will happen. A lot of people might think the Bush administration is incompetent, but that doesn’t mean they buy into the Democratic party completely. They may just hope to find a better, more “competent” Republican.
We may still find the “centrist” or “marginal” voters splitting more or less 50/50, and not being very happy about it, but not having many other alternatives available.
With Lieberman running as an independent, and with the advantage of incumbency, Senate seniority, and national name recognition from his Vice-Presidential campaign, he still might be able to pull of a sizeable vote – from both parties. His impact might be like Teddy Roosevelt’s Bull Moose Party run for the Presidency, but without the electoral college to make it easier for one or the other parties to win.
So what happens if the vote splits roughly in thirds? I don’t know a thing about electoral law in CT, but I would be surprised if they had a run-off provision. A close race with a contested re-count, with both parties throwing their resources into the legal battles and Lieberman trying to keep pace with his own resources, would be manna for the news editors for weeks.
If Lieberman does win as an Independent, his only chance for an impact would be if the Republicans and Democrats split the Senate 49/50, with Democrats holding 50 seats. In that case, Lieberman as an Independent could write his own ticket. If he votes with the Republicans on close part-line votes, its a tie which enables Cheney to vote as the tie-breaker, giving the victory to the Republicans. If he votes with the Democrats, however, his vote controls the outcome.
Independents have been in that position before, but it is a temporary position of power. As soon as the math changes in the next election, they lose all voice in the Congress, and are soon out of office.
Dear Mr. Sucks,
I was just thinking about putting in a moonbat sandbox in the backyard. I think it would fit nicely next to the laurel bush by the fence. Needless to say, now that I know Bernie Sanders (I) VT will come and play in the sandbox I will certainly change my plans! Thanks for the heads up, Mr. Sucks!
Just wondering – what will the Republican lame-duck Congress do between November and January? Are they in session, or will Bush have to call them back into session? Is there any damage they can do that cannot be undone in January?
22.
If you have in mind Lamonts opposition to the war shows that CT Democrats are abandoning the “center”, I remind you that support for the war in Iraq is a radical right position. 2/3 of the country is against our continued involvement there.
The traditional media, steeped in the DC culture, wants to paint the picture as Lamont anti-war, Lamont, therefore, left; but that is not the reality.
Opposiition to Bush is a very centrist position.
On the other hand, the eventual Democratic nominee didn’t do so hot. Maybe if Leiberman had won the nomination, the general election would have come out on the Dems side. What took place two plus years ago has essentially nothing to do with what took place last night.
“Joe-mentum?”
I don’t think so, it’s more like “NO-mentum” for assholes who rubber stamped Bush’s failed foregin policies and his failed tenure as Commander-in-Chief.
No matter what the conservative idiots on this blog say, this November’s election is going to be a referendum on the failed presidency of George W. Bush.
I am absolutely delighted to see Joe Lieberman defeated. Not that I think he should have been defeated but because it demonstrates to all of America how the Democrat Party has been hijacked by the extremist left.
Just for a second, let’s analyze how BJ Clinton was elected President. Was he elected as a McGovern/Dean democrat? Nah, he ran as a Centrist; part of the Democrat Leadership Council. He campaigned on the right and governed on the left.
I know it is too early to be dancing on the Democrat Party grave, but you guys really to a fantastic job of digging it.
Very funny! You had me fooled.
All you need to do is read the ramblings of the right to see how AWOL George got into office. His supporters are simply morons. That’s it. For instance the idiot calling himself JCBob doesn’t seem to understand that US Senators represent their STATE and Presidents represent their COUNTRY. So in some way trying to show a nexus between CT voting out Joe and President Clinton winning a NATIONAL election from the center is misguided at best. But what do you expect from a baby raping right wing taliban supporter?
Had Enough Yet?
“We are not talking here about some stock option deal where the top guys are rewarded for increasing shareholder value. In this case, the money gushing into the executive suite is simply being siphoned through holes drilled in workers’ paychecks. An example, courtesy of The Wall Street Journal:
General Motors has long complained that its “legacy costs” have made the automaker dangerously uncompetitive. By “legacy costs” it means the health benefits and pensions that it promised its workers and retirees. In an effort to ease those “burdens,” GM recently announced it would end pensions for 42,000 of its salaried employees.
But guess what The Journal discovered? It found that the fund for those middle-class pensions was actually bulging with $9 billion more than was needed to honor them. The real problem, it turns out, was GM’s executive pensions, which management had been supersizing even as it demanded cuts from the lower-downs. GM’s executive-pension obligations, we learn, are $1.4 billion.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....rop09.html
Of course, the Republicans blame the workers and the Unions for not being “competative”, and the cause of the auto-makers problems. Indeed, that is their blame for all busines problems. It couldn’t be the conservative Republican executives, the “producers”, as MTR likes to call them, could it? No, better to blame the guy making $18 bucks an hour for making too much money!
This is no lurch to the left. This is a lurch toward reality. Reality is that combatting extremism with conventional military methods is a recipe for disaster. Ned Lamont is no anti-defense-nik, he, like most of us, wants to fight extremism in the most effective manner.
This is a victory for reality. Yay, reality!
These wingnuts crack me up. Ned Lamont, from a blueblood family and rich from cable tv is considered “left of center”?
If you’re not 100 percent behind Dubya on Iraq you’re a traitor. Just shows how whacko these wingnuts have become.
Hey Wingnuts,
Suck on this!
I’ve taken the term “Centrist” to mean democrats who jump back and forth between right and left positions. I don’t believe there are any republican Centrists these days, because republicans give no ground, accept no compromise. Though there are republican Moderates, there should also be democratic Moderates, that is, democrats who will not sacrifice key democratic principles.
Lieberman is Centrist. It was Clinton’s Centrist policy that brought the most harm to the US economy. Gore has been more Moderate, especially regarding ecology, global warming, and how the global economy cannot function if the environment is to be protected.
I wonder what this says about the political sensibilities of Frank Blethen and the Seattle Times editorial board?
That they are not in accord with the more left-wing flank of the party that tends to vote in primaries. Next question?
The GOP has a joke of a candidate in CT. It’s Ned or Joe, and much of Joe’s support in the primary is scrambling to show they’re with Ned. I suspect Lieberman will withdraw from the race by Labor Day.
Commentby Another TJ— 8/9/06@ 8:42 am
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In any event, we’ll all know for sure how things turn out on the morning of November 8, 2006!
#35,
True, but don’t be a spoil-sport. What you patience-mongers don’t appreciate is that speculating in August is more fun than waiting for events to play out in November. :-)
I wonder what this says about the political sensibilities of Frank Blethen and the Seattle Times editorial board?
It says that Frank Blethen votes his business pocket book just like all traditional republicans. Look at his stand on the estate tax. No big mystery here . . .
Seems like people are forgetting fundamental politics.
“I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.” – Will Rogers.
Before this thread goes off into the wilderness like so many others around here, I thought I’d try to get some information about Lamont. His website gives the impression of someone I would call “center-left”, but there really isn’t much to go on.
As for Sen. Lieberman, while I strongly disagree with his position on the war, I know honest people that believe as he does and still can be considered Democrats. Heck, almost half of the Democrats in Connecticut voted for him. Are we going to throw them out of the party too?
If Sen. Lieberman chooses to run as an independent, that’s his right. We can, and should lend support to the candidate we think would do the best job for the country, but there’s really no need for the vitriol. The voters of Connecticut will decide which candidate best represents their views and interests.
Of course, this also brings up the fact that this race is happening on the other side of the country, and while it is interesting to us, it’s not really our business to tell Connecticut voters how they should vote.
BigUn Says: August 9th, 2006 at 2:05 pm -Isn’t it amazing the Ned Lamont is everything the liberals claim to hate, but he is against the Iraq War and that makes the difference.
I thought one issue candidates were wrong. You know like when we have been told time and time again by the tolerant peace loving left, to look beyond the single issues like abortion and gay marriage and see how much the Dem’s can help you make money.
You know like not letting you invest your social security and things like that.
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franksalterego Says: -August 9th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
These Nutcakes don’t even realize the box that they’ve just put the whole Democrat Party in.
The Party of Cut n’ Run.
The slogans just write themselves.
Buckeye Says: August 9th, 2006 at 1:07 pm -So the left wins in November and maybe even in ‘08. Then what? Do we just drop everything and wait for the terrorists to land? Wait for city after city to fall one by one?
RedBeard Says: August 9th, 2006 at 1:11 pm -No, Buckeye, you have obviously missed the key element in the Dem strategy in fighting terrorism. All we need to do is join hands with those who want to destroy us and sing a few rousing choruses of Kumbaya. All fixed. Peace will guide the planets.
RedBeard Says: August 9th, 2006 at 1:21 pm -Oh, and don’t forget to put flowers in your hair.
“We are not talking here about some stock option deal where the top guys are rewarded for increasing shareholder value. In this case, the money gushing into the executive suite is simply being siphoned through holes drilled in workers’ paychecks. An example, courtesy of The Wall Street Journal:
General Motors has long complained that its “legacy costs” have made the automaker dangerously uncompetitive. By “legacy costs” it means the health benefits and pensions that it promised its workers and retirees. In an effort to ease those “burdens,” GM recently announced it would end pensions for 42,000 of its salaried employees.
But guess what The Journal discovered? It found that the fund for those middle-class pensions was actually bulging with $9 billion more than was needed to honor them. The real problem, it turns out, was GM’s executive pensions, which management had been supersizing even as it demanded cuts from the lower-downs. GM’s executive-pension obligations, we learn, are $1.4 billion.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....rop09.html
Of course, the Republicans blame the workers and the Unions for not being “competative”, and the cause of the auto-makers problems. Indeed, that is their blame for all busines problems. It couldn’t be the conservative Republican executives, the “producers”, as MTR likes to call them, could it? No, better to blame the guy making $18 bucks an hour for making too much money!
rph6033
This is a fact too few people know. Americans who get their news from Fox and/or soundbites are woefully uninformed. Pensions should be honored because their integrity is protected-by-law and pensions are always able to perform the function for which they were devised. It is only under this ethically slippery administration which favors the wealthy bosses over the working man that money earned by the employees can be given to the bosses.
I wonder if McGavick’s $24 mil will affect the pensions of Safeco employees? Do Safecom employees pay into pensions?
This is the most illustrative example of what republicanism is doing to this country. The only reason I can think of why the democratic party doesn’t hold this up as an example of republican greed is that the democrats are in the same pockets as the republicans.
Gee, the board was going so well I thought maybe Goldy had finally decided to censor the Kennedies . . . guess not. Sigh.
“It was Clinton’s Centrist policy that brought the most harm to the US economy.”
What kind of a right-wing fucking moron would write something as STUPID as this?!?!?!?!?!
Jezzzzus-H-Christ, the economy in the 90’s under President Clinton was really fucked up. Not like it is today.
“I’m sick of Dems who say let’s hold people responsible for this war – oh, we mean let’s hold only Republicans responsible for this war.”
What people are really sick of are the Republicans who lied to Congress and the American public about going to war.
Swallow one of your own bitter pills and take some fucking accountability for party’s dishonesty.
Republicans in D.C. are in fact a new organzied crime ring. Shall we go down the long, long, long list of disgraced Republicans? Let’s go from A-Z. I’ll start with Abramoff.
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Nutroots Lamont: Christmas in August!
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
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Commentby howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKennedy— 8/9/06@ 10:59 am”
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Nutroots Lamont: Christmas in August!
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Commentby howcanyoubePROUDtobeaKennedy— 8/9/06@ 11:25 am”
Speaking of DUMBASSES. . . uhhhhhh, do you have spell check on that thingy-ma-bob of yours?
ProudtobeIlliterate
Did you drop out of elementary school before you got to grammar and spelling? You want to require immigrants to this country to learn English, but you never took the trouble to learn the language yourself. A person who can’t express herself in writing better than you plainly cannot sift through political ideas with any sort of meaningful analysis. You really should not express your opinions in public. You embarrass yourself. But, like all rightwingers, when you wallow in nonsense, you can’t tell a turd from a diamond.
So the Evilfuckingchristianistbitch lives in some parallel alternative universe that has no relation to reality (turkey basters, YES…reality…not so much). BIG SHOCKER, KIDS!!!!!!!
Dig this, BITCH:
1) You are NOT (nor have you ever BEEN) a Democrat. You and your wingnut patsies and pundits and prevaricators do not have a fucking clue what Democrats think. What Democrats DO…or what we’re gonna do. Shit, WE don’t even know. What YOU think we think IS NOT what we think and/or do.
2) All this is a referendum on YOU. YOUR party is in power. COPMPLETE CONTROL. FOR SIX YEARS. This shit is all on you. ALL the failure. ALL the breakdown of infrastructure and systems. ALL the avoidable human tragedy.
3) Loyalty to the “Death Cult of Bush” cost Leiberman has Senate seat. You’re gonna lose the House (or the Senate…either one or both). When you lose a House of Congress the INVESTIGATIONS start. WE THE PEOPLE get some accountability. The era of the “Rubber Stamp Republicans” is coming to an end.
So take your sensational and lurid “snowflake baby” stories and SHOVE THEM UP YOUR FAT (PROUD) ASS! Take your distortions and LIES and narrow fucking stupid attitude back to (u)SP where everydumbfuckbody thinks like you and you can beat off to some vision of what the world could be if only “WE” were running things.
Well you RAN the fucking thing.
And you ran it into the fucking ditch!
Lamont won because the PEOPLE of CONNECTICUT wanted him to win.
60% of the American people think your man Bush FUCKED THIS PLACE UP!
AND THEY’RE RIGHT.
Once a long time ago I was listening to Dave Ross’ program…they were talking about the “Contract “on” America”. Ross said…if we’re gonna do it…do it 100%. Let them have it their way…all the way.
Well…you got it. Six years of complete control. Six years of Congressional control (more or less) before that. Twelve years.
What a fucking mess you guys left.
If you had any shame…you’d be ashamed.
You certainly ought to be.
skagit @ 42,
I really would like it very much if pensions were fully funded, but if the cost is passed on to the PBGC, the PBGC will fail. The only likely candidate for “making good” on pensions at that point will be the government.
Government will have to raise taxes, sell assets, or borrow to fund this expense. Do you have any other ideas on how the unfunded liability will be met?
My intention is to NOT be critical but explore other peoples’ ideas.
“Hmm. I wonder what this says about the political sensibilities of Frank Blethen and the Seattle Times editorial board?”
It says poor Frank has an inferiority complex and feels picked on, especially by the taxman. From his obsession with the inheritance tax, which doesn’t touch any estate worth less than $1.5 million, it appears Frank also spends a lot of time brooding over his own impending demise. The guy needs therapy.
i Could it be that tossing-out Joe L. will actually do just the opposite of what the primary voters of CT intended?
That could very well happen, and if it does, it’s squarely on the shoulders of Joe Lieberman. He should respect the wishes of the Connecticut Democrats and bow out gracefully. But his ego may not allow him to do that, and he may end up costing the Democrats a seat in the Senate. But let’s be clear – it’s not Lamont that may make that happen…it’s Lieberman.
Some of the rich ARE evil — e.g., I see in today’s news that several more execs have been indicted for backdating options, which is the latest ingenious method of stealing the shareholders they supposedly work for.
What do you think would happen to a Boeing worker who made off with his employer’s titanium tubing or copper wire?
What do you think would happen to a Boeing worker who made off with his employer’s titanium tubing or copper wire?
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The same “special treatment” is also apparent in the military. For example, if a colonel or general commited some offense, often times he or she is allowed to retire quietly. If some poor slob enlisted guy did the same thing, he or she would get coutr-martialed and drummed-out of the service with a dishonorable discharge.
I only saw once where a colonel was made an example of and dismissed from the service with no pension, benefits, etc. In this case, it was definitely a justified punishment, but often the officer corps and many senior NCOs in the military manage to avoid the discipline and punishment doled out to the poor enlisted guys.
Rujax @ 42:
Post of the day!
Well said.
You Moonbats are stuck in the 60’s.
Too bad there aren’t any draft cards to burn.
What I want to know is what is the one thing the Republicans are going to stand on for list of accomplishments and why they should be re-elected to congress?
So far, all I hear is the fear mongering the Democrats are the party of “cut and run.”
Their best and only hope of retaining power is to scare the public into thinking that fucking up more in Iraq is somehow strong on defense!!
What a fucking joke.
What’s the administration’s plan if all out civil war breaks out in Iraq? Pull all the troops out and disgrace the 2,600 troops who’ve died as a result of Bush’s dereliction of duty as Commander-In-Chief.
Frank Blethen keeps wringing his hands about how the inheritance tax is likely result in his offspring losing control of the Times after he croaks. Admittedly, I don’t relish the prospect–I’d rather they continue to run the Times than have it fall into the hands of Gannett or Rupert Murdoch, or disappear altogether.
However, it looks like the real reason he has to worry about this is that he barely has control of the paper now, having sold out all but about a hair’s breadth of majority ownership and squandered the viability of his own business in his crazed obsession with stamping out the Post-Ingelligencer.
@ 56:
When there are draft cards be sure NOT to burn yours. Fuck, why wait? Just join today, buddy-boy!
Pussy.
Rujax @ 49: Dude, take your meds and chill.
@ 58:
Why does anyone liberal subscribe to the Seattle Times? I cancelled my subscription years ago in 2000 when Mason Sizemore was fucking over the union.
You know what? I haven’t missed that fucking fish wrap rag around my house for nearly 6 years now.
If everyone quit their subscription Frank Blethen would never have to worry about the inheritance tax laws.
Fuck him, his family and most of all, his shitty newspaper.
Correx to 55:
Rujax @ 49:
Post of the Day.
Well said.
@ 59: I’m a 21 year retires combat vet….a little to late to join and be a pussy. When did you serve?
I really would like it very much if pensions were fully funded, but if the cost is passed on to the PBGC, the PBGC will fail. The only likely candidate for “making good” on pensions at that point will be the government.
Libertarian, you show your ignorance here. There are laws on the books that demand they be fully funded and they are. Read rph’s link. Companies include pension funds in the overall assets of their companies. These big perks given CEO’s come out of company wealth and then pensions are looked at as being unfundable when they are not to make the assets of a company look better. Employee pensions are actually making the company’s assets look better so CEO’s are drawing greater retirement perks. The company gets in trouble and pensions get expended and the public bails them out. It is a scam. And only under this administration have we seen the slippery slide into so much Enron-WorldCom accounting that has let this kind of thing become common. You have to get informed. Pensions funds by law are in the black. Read up on it.
Social security is sort of analogous. SS is put into the general fund and gets used to pay for a whole lot of other things. It is currently allowing the Bush administration to hugely understate the deficit. Employee pensions cannot be borrowed from that way but by including them in the total asset wealth of the company, the company looks stronger on paper than it is.
There is no reason the public should be funding pensions. None. Employee pensions should be kept separate from the company in all cases and should still stand even when a company goes under. But, what serves employees is the last consideration to stand and the first to go. Haven’t you noticed?
“It was Clinton’s Centrist policy that brought the most harm to the US economy.”
What kind of a right-wing fucking moron would write something as STUPID as this?!?!?!?!?!
Jezzzzus-H-Christ, the economy in the 90’s under President Clinton was really fucked up. Not like it is today.
Commentby GBS— 8/9/06@ 11:14 am
GBS, you are showing your ignorance. Under Clinton who campaigned for the middle American, our jobs were sent to third-world companies with his blessing. WTO, NAFTA, etc. It was a matter of timing that we enjoyed the prosperity brought about by technology, not Clinton’s moves. And that prosperity ended with the dot.com bust.
But, Nafta continues . . . and it’s descendants. I’m liberal and I celebrate honest liberal accomplishments. But, Clinton’s weren’t. In the long run, he was more republican than dem in his handling of the economy. He wasted so much political capital.
Rujax @ 49
YOU are correct, sir! Their time is running out, and the country will soon be back on the path to respect, peace, prosperity, accountability, and as a result of those, safety!
Artfart @ 58:
Good comment! Owners are given such passes . . . it is always somebody else’s fault. I’m sick of it.
Hey “Burton”-
Let’s see that “list of accomplishments” GBS was askin’ about.
(I won’t hold my breath)
Libertarian, you show your ignorance here. There are laws on the books that demand they be fully funded and they are
===
Actually, skagit, I believe this latest bill before the Senate concerned forcing companies with defined benefit plans to fully fund at the 100% level, not the 90% level that is currently the law.
Again, Lib, did you read the link? I don’t care what the bill says. Pensions are fully funded. It has been researched and shown to be true.
Social security is sort of analogous. SS is put into the general fund and gets used to pay for a whole lot of other things. It is currently allowing the Bush administration to hugely understate the deficit.
=========
Don’t say ANYTHING bad about Social Security or RR will be all over you!
RR? Richard Reich? Robert Rubin? Who the hell is RR?
Will that new law force Washington State to fully fund their own pension plans?
What pension plans? Washington State already has reduced them to meaningless number exercises. What do you know about WA state plans, Smeg?
Skagit,
Do you understand what a “defined benefit plan” is and what a “defined contribution” plan is? A defined benefit plan, often referred to as a “pension,” is where a worker is employed over a period of time and “vests” for a promised benefit to be paid in retirement. For example, a worker with 30 years service might be “promised” 60% of the average pay of his or her last five years of service with the company once he or she reaches retirement age (often 65).
A defined contribution plan, on the other hand allows the worker to participate in a company-sponsored plan whereby he or she is allowed to invest a portion of current earings into a tax-deferred investment vehicle, such as a mutual fund, in order to save for his or her own retirement. The company often makes matching contributions into the worker’s investment choices. Usually the employer contributions to the plan vest in anywhere from two to seven years of plan participation. (The worker’s contributions to his or her defined contribution plan are ALWAYS the property of the worker: no employer can get his or hands on that money to bolster the balance sheet or pay themselves a bonus, etc.) That means the funds (whatever they’re invested in) are retirement assets belonging totally to the employee should he or she leave employment with the company. (BTW, the company makes contributions to defined contribution plans for two reasons: first, the leadership of the company are also employees and benefit from contributions. Second, the company, for tax purposes, gets a deduction for the contributions while the employee doesn’t have to pay taxes on those contributions until he or she starts withdrawing from the plan in retirment.) The big difference between the define contribution plan and the defined benefit plan is that the employer promises the employee nothing. Whatever he or she has in the defined contribution plan at retirement is all that there is. No monthly check from the company will follow. With defined contribution plans, it’s all about individual responsibility. With defined contribution plans, it’s company promises that we’re finding that those companies can’t keep.
The defined benefit plan idea is fading away, but there are companies stuck with funding the promises made generations ago. These unfunded liabilities, regardless of what the CEO or CFO did last year or ten years ago, will cause the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation to fail, leaving nothing but the government to pick up the tab.
So, I’ll repeat my question, Skagit: how should we meet the unfunded liability that will make itself the 600-pound gorilla in the room soon? Do we increase taxes? Do we borrow the money? Do we sell-off government assets to fund the gap? What’s your opinion?
“RR” is Roger Rabbit, and he gets hot under the collar when anyone says thigngs about social security which conflict with how he feels about SS.
That was a stupid response, then.
As for your pension response: honey, I’m not here to debate plans with you. Reference the article under discussion and keep it relevant. Thanks. If CEO’s weren’t taking out such huge benefit packages and pension funds were kept out of the overall assets of the company, the picture would be entirely different. There is no reason for the public to have to bail out pension plans.
There is no reason for the public to have to bail out pension plans.
Commentby skagit— 8/9/06@ 2:14 pm
================
Then those pensions will probably go unfunded and the participants will be SOL – somewhat out of luck!
The pension mess should be a wake-up call to all the not depend on an employer for retirement. It may in fact be far too late for older workers to adequately take care of their retirment needs, given the length of time it takes to build a retirement portfolio.
How we handle this looming financial catastrophy is the question we should be asking.
Libertarian, I’m going to defer to you because I can’t find a thing to back up my main contention about fundability. I know that companies are messing around with pensions in ways that are unconscionable and that CEO perks and retirements are having a huge impact on the viability of companpies and their employees. But, no info on the other.
Agree with your last comment. Regarding both SS and employees in the public/private sector.
BTW, I have family in both State and City of Seattle jobs. State is doing a lousy job . . . pensions are eroding significantly. City of Seattle: best run pension plan I know – work for thirty years and out with full pension. Hasn’t changed. Conservatively run and has integrity.
@68: Bush HAS screwed the pooch on a bunch of things.
That being said, both Gore nor Kerry are clowns who cannot deal with a post 9-11 world.
Reminder: A bunch of folks voted AGAINST Gore & Kerry and not FOR Bush.
nor = and
Reminder: A bunch of folks voted AGAINST Gore & Kerry and not FOR Bush.
Commentby Jack Burton— 8/9/06@ 2:43 pm
You have no idea if that is true whatsoever. Another rightie-tightie blowing gas outa his ass.
Jack @ 63:
Operation El Dorado Canyon April 1986.
Operation Just Cause December 1989.
1979-1990.
US Navy.
Your missions, . . Jack?
Commentby Rujax— 8/9/06@ 11:36 am:
1. ) You are NOT (nor have you ever BEEN) a Democrat. You and your wingnut patsies and pundits and prevaricators do not have a fucking clue what Democrats think. What Democrats DO…or what we’re gonna do. Shit, WE don’t even know. What YOU think we think IS NOT what we think and/or do.
DEAR MORON… YOU ARE RIGHT I HAVE NEVER, EVER, EVER BEEN A DEMOCRAP… I HAVE A BRAIN AND I DON’T LIKE KOOLAID. THANK YOU FOR NOTICING.
What Democrats DO…or what we’re gonna do. Shit, WE don’t even know.
*UM, AND THANKS FOR ADMITTING THE D’RATS DON’T HAVE A PLAN… FOR ANYTHING.
GAME, SET, MATCH, SWEETCHEEKS.
2) All this is a referendum on YOU. YOUR party is in power. COPMPLETE CONTROL. FOR SIX YEARS. This shit is all on you. ALL the failure. ALL the breakdown of infrastructure and systems. ALL the avoidable human tragedy.
Speaking of DUMBASSES. . . uhhhhhh, do you have spell check on that thingy-ma-bob of yours? -Commentby GBS— 8/9/06@ 11:30 am
Did you drop out of elementary school before you got to grammar and spelling? You really should not express your opinions in public. You embarrass yourself. Commentby proud leftist— 8/9/06@ 11:36 am
3) Loyalty to the “Death Cult of Bush” cost Leiberman has Senate seat. You’re gonna lose the House (or the Senate…either one or both). When you lose a House of Congress the INVESTIGATIONS start. WE THE PEOPLE get some accountability. The era of the “Rubber Stamp Republicans” is coming to an end.
GOLLY GOSH GEE WHIZ AND HERE WE ALL THOUGHT THE NUTROOTS AND KOSKIDS DID THE HEAVY LIFTING.
MORON.
So take your sensational and lurid “snowflake baby” stories and SHOVE THEM UP YOUR FAT (PROUD) ASS! Take your distortions and LIES and narrow fucking stupid attitude back to (u)SP where everydumbfuckbody thinks like you and you can beat off to some vision of what the world could be if only “WE” were running things.
Well you RAN the fucking thing.
And you ran it into the fucking ditch!
Lamont won because the PEOPLE of CONNECTICUT wanted him to win.
NEWSFLASH DIMWIT… 10% OF THE CONNECTICUT ELECTORATE GAVE LAMONT A **PRIMARY** WIN… NOW CONVINCE THE OTHER 90%
I THINK RUGRAT MISSED HIS NAPPY TODAY.
I JUST GOTTA WONDER, IF HE IS FEELING SO GLORIOUS IN VICTORY.. WHY IS HE SUCH AN ANGRY LITTLE RAT?
WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, AND A HAPPY NOVEMBER ELECTION.
Skagit,
Are you fucking kidding me?!?!
Who is the ONLY president in the last 100 years to pay down the national debt and create a surplus?
I’d be happy to engage you in a conversation on domestic and global economics, however, I prefer to keep my powder dry for republicans.
Let’s just start here: What’s the differance between the National Debt and the Federal Deficit?
RUGRAT missed his nap
Hmmm, apparently here some people don’t realize that we’re the COUNTRY of “Cut’n’run”. MOST AMERICANS want out of Iraq, because the alternative is years more of watching the world’s biggest fuckups “staying the course.” And that’s just the freakin’ truth. So when the party of waking up an smelling the icompetence is the Democrats, that’s who’s going to win big in November.
GBS @ 84
US Army 77-98
Gulf War I:
Desert Shield
Desert Storm
Provide Comfort
Dear rugrat and his/her/its fellow koolaid drinkers,
Perhaps you should stop mouth-breathing long enough to ponder the significance (and irony) of the fact that conservatives have gleefully and jubilantly joined you in celebrating the ‘election’ of NetNutNed.
WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, WE GOT US A MERRY AUGUST CHRISTMAS, AND A HAPPY NOVEMBER ELECTION.
GBS . . . before going into a diatribe about the difference between the national debt and fiscal deficit, address the point. Clinton presided over a time of affluence due to the tech boom and benefitted from a huge tax base. At the same time, he signed legislation that moved jobs offshore in large numbers. How has that helped our economy?
GBS, you fuckhead moron. Clinton approved NAFTA (GHWBush joined Clinton for its signing), and US manufacturing jobs went first south to Mexico and then east to Asia. Those first years under Clinton, the economy grew with computer-driven electronics, new technology and the internet. But the Dot.com Crash revealed how internet commerce and the global economy was an over-inflated balloon. Now that the global economy faces the high cost of transport ie petroleum, the US economy has no manufacturing other than automobiles, WMDs (military equipment and aircraft), and auto-dependent suburban sprawl housing.
Dearest evilfuckingchristianistbitch…
Just don’t get it do ya.
It’s
OH-VER.
proud leftist does that mean you married a turd?
63 gbs got booted from the navy.he is a real killer ex seal who got booted for hitting an officer.
All Blethen cares about is estate tax repeal.
“63 gbs got booted from the navy.he is a real killer ex seal who got booted for hitting an officer.”
Oh fer krisakes that old chestnut again.
I am an ex Marine who broke a SEALS leg in a soccer game. That and 65 cents gets me a Snickers bar.
Who cares get back on topic.
@ 97:
Marines . . . please!!
There is a hierarchy to the military that most people don’t know about. It has to do with the ASVAB tests you take before getting in the military. As a rule of thumb the smartest go in the Navy, then the Air Force, then the Coast Guard. Average people go in the Army and the really fucking stupid ones go in the Marines. Period.
The Marines are the retarded step brothers of the Navy. In fact, the Marines don’t even have their own branch of the military, they BELONG to the Department of the Navy.
They MUST guard our gates. Why? Because sailors want to go out and party after work, chase women and have fun. So way back when, when the issue of guarding the gates came up, the sailors said “make the retarded grunts do it.” So the Chief of Naval Operations called the Commandant of the Marines and said “Get a security detail to guard all Naval bases.” And, do you know what the Commandant of the Marines said? “Yes, sir!”
Shit, Marines are so stupid, they can’t even put on their own fucking band-aids, so we have to send in a Navy Corpsman with them. They can’t even be trusted to get their own gear to a combat zone, that’s left up to the Navy to make sure Marines get where they are going. Otherwise, they’d get lost and never make it to the shittiest duty on the planet.
When America has an emergency she call her 9-1-1 force, the US Navy. That’s why they call it “Gunboat diplomacy” and not “tank diplomacy” or “M-16 diplomacy.” That doesn’t put the fear of God into another country’s leader. But, when an American Naval Battle Group shows up, you know you’re in for an ass kicking.
Who struck first in Afghanistan? Yep, US Navy fighter/bombers.
Marines don’t even storm the beach first. Ask any Marine who has ever done an exercise where they’ve participated in a beach assault. Ask them about the company flag they ALWAYS find on the beachhead courtesy of the US Navy SEALS letting them know who was truly first on the beach!
Last, but not least look at what our government trust the Navy with: Intercontinental Nuclear Ballistic Missiles. What do Marines get? M-16’s. Why? Because you wouldn’t trust a retard with ‘nukes’ that’s why.
“I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.” – Will Rogers.
Ok GBS and whoever else wants to claim military service, then show off their own ignorance.
“There is a hierarchy to the military that most people don’t know about. It has to do with the ASVAB tests you take before getting in the military. As a rule of thumb the smartest go in the Navy, then the Air Force, then the Coast Guard. Average people go in the Army and the really fucking stupid ones go in the Marines. Period.”
As a retired Navy Chief Petty Officer (and you may check my service at http://www.lonesailor.org/log.php – Last name “Barelli”) I take great offence at anyone making that kind of statement.
1st, service pride notwithstanding, the ASVAB doesn’t work that way.
2nd, many Marines have college degrees and all Marine Corps MOS’s are eligible for conversion to college credit according to the The American Council on Education.
3rd, as any active, reserve or retired military person should know, the Navy and Marine Corps are joined at the DOD level, and each has its own uniformed head. No, the Commandant of the Marine Corps does not answer to the Chief of Naval Operations. They BOTH answer to the Secretary of the Navy (a civilian).
4th, the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is Marine Gen. Peter Pace. So, to some degree, the Navy, (along with the Army and Air Force) are all answering to the Marines.
With over 21 years of active service, I have had the pleasure and privilege of serving with many Marines. I have found them to be honest, honorable and intelligent. As in any large group, I’m sure there are exceptions. Some of them have even made the news, and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Yes, as a Sailor, I’ve kidded them about being “jarheads” and “grunts”, just as they’ve kidded me about being a “squid”. It’s a friendly rivalry, and we all acknowledge that the other side has earned the right.
But you, “GHB”, who hides behind initials and claim you have served, when your words show that you have little knowledge of actual military service, should shut up, find the nearest Marine and beg his or her pardon for your ignorant and ill-thought words.
John Barelli, NCC(AW), USN-FR
Barelli, GBS hasn’t made a point on this blog that has stood up. He’s just a crazy old coot who bloviates and the only one listening is himself. Just give the guy some space . . . and move on to people who have something to say.
He’s a sorry old fella.
OK, Chief, calm the fuck down.
I was in the Navy, too. I know the ASVAB test doesn’t really determine which branch of the military you’ll enter, it only determines which jobs enlisted personnel are eligible for.
Having served some of my time in the Gator Navy I know all too well about Marines. It is like being brothers. We will fight each other at the drop of a hat, I know, I’ve had my run in with a Marine. But I also know we’ll take each others back when if someone from the Army or Air Force wants to stick their nose where it doesn’t belong.
As far as my service, I’ll take a page from my conservative friend Puddybud. You want to see my DD-214? No problem. I’ll deposit $10,000 in an escrow account and you deposit $10,000 in the same account. I’ll produce my DD-214 at a prescribed date/time at my attorney’s office with you and a notary to witness it. If I’m successful I get all the money in the escrow account. If I’m not you’ll get it. That challenge is good for anyone on this blog. Period. Especially, JCH.
Let me know, Chief, if still think my military service is a false claim. Now some people say I’m cocky, but I say it ain’t braggin’ mother fucker if you can back it up.
And, for 10 grand, I’ll back it up.
Balls in your court Chief. Let’s see whatcha got.
P.S.: If you think for a moment I’m going beg a Marine to pardon my words, you’re fucking crazy. I’ve earned the right to spout my diatribe and I’ll continue to exercise that right until someone can stop me.
Skagit,
Challenge @ 100 goes for you, too.
PS: Why is it when I ask you a question you avoid it like a conservative telling the truth?
Go on there big fella, you made the claim I didn’t know anything about the economy, when I tested you with a question you should’ve easily been able to answer it. Instead, you ran like a Republican from the recruiting station.
I’ll be interested to see your answer to my question. Let me eliminate the need for you to make excuses and repost my challenge question: What’s the difference between the National Debt and the Federal Deficit?
This ought to be good.
GBS: I already did. You are the one avoiding . . .
GBS . . . before going into a diatribe about the difference between the national debt and fiscal deficit, address the point. Clinton presided over a time of affluence due to the tech boom and benefitted from a huge tax base. At the same time, he signed legislation that moved jobs offshore in large numbers. How has that helped our economy?
Commentby skagit— 8/9/06@ 5:20 pm
I guess your memory is failing you . . . getting old is no fun, is it Ole’Timer. :)
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C’mooonnnnn Skagit, don’t be such a fucking pussy and a such a God Damned liar. You did NOT answer my questions you fucking geek…
I mean, how fucking STUPID are you? Do you not understand your own fucking thoughts and words?
@ 103 you wrote:
“GBS: I already did. You are the one avoiding . . .
GBS . . . before going into a diatribe about the difference between the national debt and fiscal deficit, address the point.”
Let’s get down to the operative words in your moronic statements.
GBS: I already did. and this gem “GBS . . . before going into a diatribe about the difference between the national debt and fiscal deficit.
So how do consider yourself not avoiding the question? Jackass.
I see that by my post @ 102 my astute powers of obersevation are even better than my memory, which is pretty damn good. See, I can tell when a redneck, lying sack of shit conservative is on the hook, and you’re “FISH ON!” material, you putz.
All you had to do at 103 is explain the difference between the National Debt and the Federal Deficit. But, as I accurately predicted, you opted to avoid answering the question LIKE A REPUBLICAN AVOIDS THE TRUTH.
Young, dumb and full of cum is no way to go through life pecker head.
Go on what’s the fucking difference betweent the National Debt and the Federal Deficit.
Once you anser that accurately, I’ll blow up your “Clinton fucked it up” story.
Ass hooooole.
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