Over at Slog, Dominic Holden has posted a copy of the heavily-redacted police report from Tuesday’s raid on the Lifevine medical marijuana office in the University District. The police involvement in this case began when the operator of a barbershop adjacent to the Lifevine office reported the smell of marijuana to police. According to the Seattle Times, the barbershop owner was unaware that the office was being used by medical marijuana patients.
When the police arrived, Martin Martinez from Lifevine cooperated with them (Martin was actually one of the people who helped pass the initiative in 1998 that was intended to make medical marijuana legal in this state). After communicating with Ellen O’Neill-Stephens in the King County Prosecuting Attorney’s office, the police were then able to obtain a warrant to conduct a search. During the search, the police took out a wall in the office, convinced that there was a secret grow operation behind it. They found no plants growing anywhere.
They then took both medicine (12 ounces) and patient files from the office. In an interview with KUOW this morning, King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg acknowledged that the medical files should not have been taken and they are being returned this afternoon. The police are still refusing to return the medicine, even though the amount taken is within the draft 60-day supply limits proposed by the Department of Health.
Even as this situation inches towards a positive resolution, there are still a lot of questions. Why did the police take the files in the first place? Were they authorized by O’Neill-Stephens to do so? Is SPD going to pay for the wall they damaged? And how are the actions of SPD in any way compliant with Initiative 75, which made adult marijuana use the lowest priority for the city’s law enforcement, so that they could, you know, deal with real crimes?
And there’s one other question here that’s not directly related to marijuana laws. Why didn’t the barbershop owner try to find out why there was a marijuana odor coming from the office next door before calling the cops? This is a peculiar Seattle trait that I’ve noticed. People here will call in NATO to intervene with a neighborhood dispute before they’ll actually knock on their neighbor’s door and ask what’s up. I just don’t get it.
Was the barber perhaps concerned that the use of medical marijuana might cut into the market for the application of leeches?
Jonathan Raban calls it our “unique Scando-Japanese reserve”.
Another example of “law enforcement” keeping us safe. What a fucking joke. This is another example of our slide towards a fascist police state. Busting people for weed is in itself a large part of what fuels our prison-industrial complex. It is way past time to end marijuana prohibition!
Well, at least one positive.
It’s not a government of republicans doing this to innocent pot smokers.
How any people here smoke pot?
The state supreme court has ruled police do not have to compensate victims for damage during a search warrant, even when removing a load-bearing wall made the house uninhabitable. Eggleston v. Pierce County (2003). The circumstances of that case could be interpreted as vindictive action by the police.
I don’t think enough attention is paid as to WHY the democrat controlled government of seattle would actually raid people’s property in such a manner.
Ever notice the more crime a city has the more democrats in the local government.
Crime is so bad in chicago, the city that obama was a community organizer, that the governor is considering sending in the state police and the national guard.
Perhaps because SHE was afraid of who she’d confront. Maybe it is a mellow bunch of office folks or maybe it is a bunch of bikers ready to tear her head off for stumbling on their grow operation. In fact, if you read the news reports, she wanted to be kept anonymous because she feared reprisals. Thanks for outing her. If someone hits her shop, are you going to take up a collection to fix any damage?
Also… The reason she reported it in the first place was that THE POT SMOKE WAS MAKING HER SICK. Had Lifevine merely served as an information office, there would’ve been no issue. Instead, they chose to light up with what sounds like regular frequency — and in enough quantity for the smoke to waft next door and make people sick.
While it sounds like the police overstepped in this case, their investigation of Lifevine was entirely reasonable. Initiative 75 would not protect grow and/or distribution operations — only “personal use” pot crimes.
From the Times article:
Note that she didn’t complain right away. She left it alone until she couldn’t stand it any more. Also note that it said the building filled with smoke smell and that she wasn’t alone in being impacted.
Doesn’t the neighbor have a right to NOT have pot smoke in her store?
The real mark got me to thinking… The smoke was so prevalent that it was smelled next door.
Imagine the outrage if instead of pot the person was smoking a cigarette and it was smelled next door.
CIT @ 3
Busting people for weed has little to do with prison. Those in prison for weed either have large-scale grow and/or distribution operations and/or have committed a crime (e.g. violence) along with the pot offense(s) and/or include offenses for harder drugs like cocaine or heroin.
the question i have is would a dem (sherman) controlled KC prosecutor’s office have handled this differently? i would hope so, but then again the SPD isn’t controlled by bush or the feds either.
@7
Yep!
Dang it, I hate it when the wing-nuts get one right.
@7
I haven’t outed anyone. I don’t even know who she is. The Times wrote about her. I totally agree that if this woman’s business was affected, she had a right to complain. But she should have tried to contact the people in the office directly (and if she runs the business next door, she would know that the people who go in and out of it aren’t scary bikers).
@7
Doesn’t the neighbor have a right to NOT have pot smoke in her store?
Read the article again. It doesn’t say anything about smoke. It just says odor. Twelve ounces of marijuana grown by an expert grower can be smelled from a long distance. That said, she has a right to complain about the odor.
Lee @ 12 & 13
1. The newspaper article did not say she owned the barbershop. YOU did.
2. As I mentioned, she was AFRAID of reprisals for even reporting it. What makes you think that she would go nosing around the building? If you read the article, she didn’t know where it was coming from.
It only turned out in the end that it was next door.
3. If you can smell something, you’re actually absorbing particles (or derivatives) of the matter in question. If it was strong enough that she was getting sick, it wasn’t just some faint odor. However, you’re right that I (incorrectly?) assumed it was smoke. Do we know for sure that someone wasn’t lighting up periodically?
As I said before, it sounds like the SPD overdid it (I might ask a relative that works there what the inside scoop is). However, I don’t believe the lady did anything wrong. She was getting sick, she thought that it might be a grow operation and she did the right thing. You don’t confront the unknown like that.
It seems like the pot people felt bad about the situation, but if what you say about the smell is common knowledge, why were they so oblivious? Were they nose deaf?
Maybe you can tell me… To the untrained nose, does that 12 ounces of pot smell like pot smoke or something different?
“People here will call in NATO to intervene with a neighborhood dispute before they’ll actually knock on their neighbor’s door and ask what’s up. I just don’t get it.”
To be fair, I don’t blame her. While pot smokers (medicinal or not) are not known to be violent people, even polite requests can become a dangerous situation. When a roundabout-watering argument can result in a death, I get a little nervous about neighborhood disputes.
“Marvin Stamn spews:
How any people here smoke pot?”
I discovered in college that, oddly enough, I inherited a mild allergy to marijuana. So I’m not a pot smoker. Still, I’d be fine with marijuana being legalized if pot smokers follow the same laws that smokers do.
Hey Marvin “the democrats run the show” Stamm
The King County prosecutor is a REPUBLICAN, you fucking moron.
And why does the barber have a right to call police for something that is being done within the law? Shouldn’t they know what is going on around them?
And which judge signed a warrant to search a place that was conducting itself within the law? Why did the REPUBLICAN district attorneys office not know what was going on?
But, since it is the REPUBLICANS at work, what else would you expect?
“Why didn’t the barbershop owner try to find out why there was a marijuana odor coming from the office next door before calling the cops? This is a peculiar Seattle trait that I’ve noticed. People here will call in NATO to intervene with a neighborhood dispute before they’ll actually knock on their neighbor’s door and ask what’s up. I just don’t get it.”
Complaining to your neighbor about his grow operation is a good way to get shot.
@14
My take is that the Lifevine folks were oblivious to how poorly ventilated their building was and how far away the smell was being picked up.
Obviously, if it’s enough that it’s making another person sick, then it’s certainly a problem. I don’t dispute that. But as anyone familiar with the politics of anti-tobacco initiatives knows, numerous people claim that tobacco smoke “makes them sick” when they simply just don’t like the smell. I’m not sure what the truth is here, but I do not agree with what Roger says here:
Complaining to your neighbor about his grow operation is a good way to get shot.
I wasn’t asking her to complain directly to the neighbor about it. I was asking her to start a dialog with the neighbor – find out who they are and what they do. Then, once that happens, you can mention that you can smell pot. If there actually was a grow operation, they’d probably be happy that you were bringing this to their attention. But most people aren’t stupid enough to set up a large scale grow operation in a poorly ventilated building in a crowded place.
@16
Marvin assumed that since I haven’t mentioned Satterberg’s affiliation that he was a Democrat.
LOL.
@18
Lee,
Based on my own reading I do not think that bystander effects of tobacco are a real problem, BUT as person with a nose, I do think anyone who smokes around me is intruding into my space and I feel that I have a right NOT to participate in their smoking. Same would go for marijuana, cooking odors or even strongt perfumes.
On a different issue, the 12gm of marijuana they had, was that in the posession of someone with a scrip?
One suggestion I have for your side of the fight, it must be possible t estimate the cost in dollars of this raid? I would bet it adds up to quite a lot. Say 3 cops, 3 hours, supervisor time, equipment and overhead … roughly 4500 X 2 + 1500 .. at a wild guess, 10,500???
In corporate, private terms such an expense would get noticed and someone would need to justify it.
Also, I wonder if this story may not be a perfect storm. If the neighbor complained, then the cops p[robably had to take some action. This culd cause a catch 22 where the MM idea (as you know NOT my favorite idea) led t a conflict with the neighbor’s rights to not participate in use of an illegal substance.
Final question in this thread, do MM clinics try marinol first?
Based on my own reading I do not think that bystander effects of tobacco are a real problem, BUT as person with a nose, I do think anyone who smokes around me is intruding into my space and I feel that I have a right NOT to participate in their smoking. Same would go for marijuana, cooking odors or even strongt perfumes.
I agree.
On a different issue, the 12gm of marijuana they had, was that in the posession of someone with a scrip?
Martin is a registered patient whose use is recommended by a doctor (and it was 12 ounces, not 12 grams).
One suggestion I have for your side of the fight, it must be possible t estimate the cost in dollars of this raid? I would bet it adds up to quite a lot. Say 3 cops, 3 hours, supervisor time, equipment and overhead … roughly 4500 X 2 + 1500 .. at a wild guess, 10,500???
It could probably be done, but I’m not the right person to know how to calculate that figure.
In corporate, private terms such an expense would get noticed and someone would need to justify it.
Don’t be so sure about that. I’ve seen private companies waste far more money with less justification than what those cops had for tearing out the wall. :)
Also, I wonder if this story may not be a perfect storm. If the neighbor complained, then the cops p[robably had to take some action. This culd cause a catch 22 where the MM idea (as you know NOT my favorite idea) led t a conflict with the neighbor’s rights to not participate in use of an illegal substance.
That still doesn’t explain why they took medical records and medicine. This was simply a neighborly dispute that Martin could have (and would have) easily resolved had he known it was a problem sooner. I’ve met Martin before. He’s the least threatening person you could imagine. He’s often accused by other activists of being too much of a pushover. The idea that anyone would be intimidated by him is nuts. And apparently, you can look right into the office through the window and see him in there.
Final question in this thread, do MM clinics try marinol first?
Marinol can be gotten through a prescription, so they don’t deal with Marinol patients at all. Lifevine provides support for people who either can’t take Marinol or find it ineffective.
Lee @ 18
You say that she should’ve chatted up her neighbor, but the problem is that she and the others didn’t know who was causing the problem. It was a three story building with mixed retail and apartments. What was she supposed to do — go door-to-door asking, “hey, are you growing any pot?”
As to whether it truly makes her sick or she simply doesn’t like the smell… That’s actually irrelevant. It is an intrusion on her rights. Furthermore, as I explained above, if you can smell something, you’re actually ingesting particles of the matter (or derivatives thereof).
Maybe you and your friends are mellow cats that just be partakin’ of the herb, mon… but there are plenty of pot growers that protect their illegal enterprises with a shotgun. The odds of her running into criminals — be they simple smokers or serious growers — is far more likely than that of her running into a medical marijuana resource office.
Again, I will ask you the same questions as I did before:
1. Do we know for sure that nobody was ever smoking there?
2. Does that 12 oz. of pot smell like pot smoke or ???
3. New questions… Why would the smell be wafting about in the first place?
Were they drying the stuff there?
Knowing that “good” pot is highly aromatic, why not put it in well-sealed containers? (And why would they have ANY reason to open said containers?)
Were they distributing it?
Why would someone have that kind of quantity in one place on a long-term basis? (That sounds like a Cheech & Chong-sized joint)
If he’s NOT smoking it at the office, why wouldn’t he be keeping that kind of quantity at home?
Lee @ 21
You keep glossing over one important point. Whether Martin is a nice guy or not, they didn’t know exactly where the smell was coming from. Again… three story, mixed-use building.
Even if they looked in the window, what would they have seen? A bunch of plants and grow lights? No, they would’ve seen an office(?) and would have likely concluded that the smell was NOT from there, but from somewhere else.
@21 Lee
I wonder in re Marinol, are there physicians who have a relaxed policy as to its use? Given thta our system included use of drugs ofr their psychoactive principles, I wonder if there are docs willing to scribe the stuff for off label purposes .. e.g anxiety?
@21 Lee
It sounds to me that the cops responded to a reasonable call by a neighbor but then they became overly zealous, as I said, a perfect storm.
In re the money, a LOT of folks are very sentiive to the use of tax money for frivolous ends. Given that the SPD is a public agency, it shold be easy t get an estimate of the costs/hr of cop services. There are pretty standard ways of estimating admin overhead etc.
So, I was just thinking that we both agree on the irrationality of the current approach and this might be a way to get folks who do not care about KMM as a cause onto your side of the issue?
Stephen (& Lee)…
If you want the general voting people to feel better about legalizing medical marijuana, pro pot people need to side with the law AGAINST illegal growers and distributors — or, at the very least, not make every pot arrest a cause celebre. Don’t try to piggyback your own, casual, non-medical use on the issue. Make a bright line distinction.
You can say that you already do that, but read the pot threads on this site. It seems to me that in every case the conversation goes from “medical pot users arrested” to “I like to light up on weekends and f*** The Man if he tries to bust me. It is my right.”
@22
You say that she should’ve chatted up her neighbor, but the problem is that she and the others didn’t know who was causing the problem. It was a three story building with mixed retail and apartments. What was she supposed to do — go door-to-door asking, “hey, are you growing any pot?”
According to the Officer Rees’ sworn statement, the woman alerted them directly to the Lifevine office.
Maybe you and your friends are mellow cats that just be partakin’ of the herb, mon… but there are plenty of pot growers that protect their illegal enterprises with a shotgun. The odds of her running into criminals — be they simple smokers or serious growers — is far more likely than that of her running into a medical marijuana resource office.
I think you watch a little too much TV. Not even the stupidest criminal on Earth would have a pot farm in an office in a busy place, let alone shoot people to defend it. And simple smokers may technically be criminals, but they’re also probably the least violent people you could possibly encounter. It’s very possible that the woman’s reluctance was because she’s as naive about this stuff as you are. I don’t think that’s a good enough excuse for what she did.
1. Do we know for sure that nobody was ever smoking there?
No, I have no idea. What I was saying before was that the odor from the plant itself could potentially be smelled from vary far away, even without smoking.
2. Does that 12 oz. of pot smell like pot smoke or ???
You should be able to tell the difference, and I have a hunch that this is why the cops were convinced that there was a grow room.
3. New questions… Why would the smell be wafting about in the first place?
Fresh high-quality pot is remarkably pungent.
Knowing that “good” pot is highly aromatic, why not put it in well-sealed containers? (And why would they have ANY reason to open said containers?)
That’s a good question that I think Martin will be finding the answer to this weekend. It was my first thought after getting the details of this case.
Were they distributing it?
No.
Why would someone have that kind of quantity in one place on a long-term basis? (That sounds like a Cheech & Chong-sized joint)
12 ounces is within the individual 60-day supply limit and someone who relies on it medically like Martin does needs far more of it (Martin uses enough that he doesn’t get ‘high’ from it any more).
If he’s NOT smoking it at the office, why wouldn’t he be keeping that kind of quantity at home?
I have no idea if he’s not smoking at the office, but it is possible (although I don’t know for sure) that the neighbor smelled the plants, but not the smoke. In the articles I’ve seen, I’ve only seen references to “an odor.”
@26
If you want to do something about the criminals who run the marijuana distribution networks here, the best way to do it is to legalize and regulate their sales. I don’t want to treat pot farmers like criminals, I want to treat them like Budweiser or Coors.
@25
In re the money, a LOT of folks are very sentiive to the use of tax money for frivolous ends. Given that the SPD is a public agency, it shold be easy t get an estimate of the costs/hr of cop services. There are pretty standard ways of estimating admin overhead etc.
I realize that. I’m just not familiar with how to do it myself.
So, I was just thinking that we both agree on the irrationality of the current approach and this might be a way to get folks who do not care about KMM as a cause onto your side of the issue?
Of course. The fact that this is a tremendous waste of taxpayer money is why this issue IS starting to appeal to many conservatives.
Is there any good reason why marijuana should be illegal?
Steve @ 29
I believe the medicinal use (outside of mere anecdotal evidence) is a relatively new thing. If it really works, it should be treated no differently than Vicodin or any other controlled narcotic. Outside of medicine, the SOLE use of pot (or Vicodin) is as an intoxicant and that use should be illegal.
Enjoyment of alcohol does NOT require intoxication. Enjoyment of pot does. They are not equivalent.
Are you then arguing that alcohol intoxication should be illegal?
Steve @ 31
I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Public intoxication — especially while driving — is already illegal and the latter is readily enforced.
@30
I believe the medicinal use (outside of mere anecdotal evidence) is a relatively new thing.
Not necessarily. People have sworn to its medicinal properties for centuries, but it’s only now being studied within the framework of advanced science and medicine.
If it really works, it should be treated no differently than Vicodin or any other controlled narcotic.
In a sense, yes, but marijuana is far less addictive and far less dangerous than Vicodin.
Outside of medicine, the SOLE use of pot (or Vicodin) is as an intoxicant and that use should be illegal.
Absolutely not. It’s not the government’s job to treat us like children and protect us from ourselves. Adults should be free to decide what intoxicants they choose to use. Nanny statism doesn’t work because it assumes that adults are children and are incapable of thinking for themselves. It’s wrong when it comes to guns. It’s wrong when it comes to gambling. It’s wrong when it comes to sex. And it’s wrong when it comes to drugs.
Enjoyment of alcohol does NOT require intoxication. Enjoyment of pot does. They are not equivalent.
Enjoyment of alcohol does NOT require intoxication? What? That doesn’t make any sense. Some people get a light buzz going, others like to drink more heavily, but hardly anyone drinks so little that they feel nothing.
@33 That answers Mark for me. Thanks.
Perhaps some else can try posting a reason why marijuana should be illegal.
Lee @ 33
How does it not make any sense? I have personally NEVER been drunk in my life. I can enjoy the flavor of a SINGLE glass of nice red wine with a steak dinner and leave it at that. I’m 6’3″ with a frame to match. No buzz desired — none to be had.
Lee @ 33
Should cocaine be legal? Heroin?
Steve, apparently the U.S. government is getting more and more isolated in the world when it comes to this. At a drug policy conference in Vienna this week (which is normally dominated by U.S. anti-drug officials), officials from our Drug Czar’s office were marginalized by the growing consensus that drug laws do far more damage than the drugs themselves. See this post:
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chro.....rfere_with
@35
How does it not make any sense? I have personally NEVER been drunk in my life. I can enjoy the flavor of a SINGLE glass of nice red wine with a steak dinner and leave it at that.
You could also have a cigarette with some hashish in it and not get stoned. What’s your point? MOST people use alcohol and pot to get intoxicated. Just because you’re an exception to that rule doesn’t demonstrate a difference between alcohol and pot in any way.
@36
Should cocaine be legal? Heroin?
Yes. I believe that both cocaine and heroin should be available through pharmacies to people who sign a waiver and pay an “insurance fee” that goes towards treatment centers. In Zurich, where they decriminalized heroin use and have been registering addicts, the amount of new heroin users dropped by over 80%.
@35 “I have personally NEVER been drunk in my life.”
Nothing wrong with that. Do you think that the laws should be changed so that a home could be raided by the police because someone is reportedly drunk or stoned within the privacy of their own home?
TR Mark
You made the comment:
As someone that enjoys an occasional Guinness, but hasn’t been drunk since 1978, I do understand your point. But let’s be real here, there are any number of alcoholic beverages that have the sole purpose of getting someone as drunk as possible as cheaply as possible.
So by your reasoning, Johnny Walker Black should be legal, but Albertson’s house brand whiskey should be illegal?
Frankly, the idea of filling my lungs with burning cellulose for the purpose of getting high seems pretty stupid. It’s right up there with smoking camels and drinking Albertson’s booze.
But people do things that I think are stupid every day.
Your answer to Steve is telling. Just because you (or I) don’t want to do something, doesn’t give us the right to stop others, unless we can show a direct, immediate harm from that individual’s act.
Before you bring up drunk driving, I should point out that there is actually no law prohibiting you from getting drunk and driving a vehicle, so long as you do so on your own property.
Why is it that the folks on the right speak constantly about personal responsibility, but seem so opposed to individuals making their own decisions? Exactly why do you think that people are unable to run their own lives without the government making all their decisions for them?
Oh, and exactly who benefits from keeping drugs illegal? It hasn’t apparently made them difficult to obtain, but has made the quality and relative safety of them questionable. It has also made a number of really bad people very rich, while turning a large portion of the population into criminals.
Prohibition was the key to turning some rather small-time criminals into powerful figures that could corrupt the police and courts. It took a few years, but as a country, we finally figured that out and ended it.
Now we have the drug war doing the same thing.
One last bit for SeattleJew.
I know that you disagree with me on this topic. But I also know that you’re something of a Jeffersonian when it comes to government powers.
I’m curious how you reconcile those two positions. Exactly what gives the federal government the power to prohibit a person from growing a particular plant on their own property, drying the leaves, setting them on fire and then breathing the smoke?
I agree that it’s a dumb thing to do. I just cannot find anything in the Constitution that gives the federal government any authority in the matter.
@26 The real Mark
For once, you and I agree. The medical marijuana issue should have nothing to do with the marijuana issue. BUT, the problem for Lee and other marijuana proponents is that they evangelize and are nto happy with marijuana being treated like every other medicine that is as an active ingredient sold in pure form and subject to all the same rules we apply to conventional drugs.
As for legalizing marijuan, I have very mixed feelings. The stuff is pretty harmless, but may be as risky as other cigarettes. I kind of like the idea of legalization with civil penalties if the stuff does do harm.
@41 John
as you must know, old TJ was anything BUT enthusiastic about the US Constitution. In any case, my admiration for him obviously does not imply a rigorous agreement with all of his ideas .. e,g, unlike TJ, I am not an antisemite.
As for the state controlling drugs, I think this is a very sticky wicket.
The easy part is that the state must control things we can do that can hurt each other. You should not be free to grow anthrax, mine radium, or grow pigs w/o regulation.
How does this apply to things we sell each other? That is a hard one. After all one can sell pork or radium. So maybe one part of the answer is that anything that can hurt others needs regulation.
Where does MJ fit in? AFIK the stuff is no more harmful than chocolate. So, I think it should be treated like chocolate .. sold and regulated.
Should it be regulated if for personal use? Yes, since it can be sold to others.
And back at TJ …
I think he would say this ought to be the purview of state law. I tend to agree.I really do not see any reason for the feds to regulate a safe agent.
@42 “Should it be regulated if for personal use? Yes, since it can be sold to others.”
Should wine, beer and marijuana that is made or grown in one’s home for personal use be regulated? If marijuana isn’t legalized, would you support the regulation of home-made wine and beer?
Just at add, Washington revised code Title 66, Chapter 66.12, §66.12.010 permits the manufacture of wine or beer in any home. It has to be made for consumption within the home, and can’t be sold.
I found out that the woman at the barber shop is not too well liked in the wider business community ’round here…apparently she has had some problems with employees and other business owners in the area that I have talked to do not get along well with her. The building is very small where lifevine is located. it’s not a smell of combusted cannabis that emanates (which you can smell on almost every corner of the U-district on most evenings), it’s the faint odor of fresh, uncombusted cannabis flowerbuds. Compare it to the smell of spices coming out of an Indian restaurant or Chinese restaurant. Not a rancid odor, not psychoactive in the traditional sense, just a scent that some people like, and some don’t. The lifevine folks may now be having landlord problems…this is such a sad way to welcome these caring people into the neighborhood. I wish people would stop harrassing them, and just let them and their doctor-recommended, non-FDA approved, locally grown plant medicines be.