The contest is over the contest.
The GOP attorney tried to argue out of both sides of his mouth. He essentially admits that the “safety valve” (RCW 29A.60.210) applies to the recount, but not to these 723 ballots, because they have been previously “rejected.” He also argues that the proper place for the Democrats to address these ballots is in a contest, but apparently it would do irreparable harm to Dino Rossi, if he had to challenge them in a contest.
Essentially, there is going to be a contest, and the GOP would rather it be filed by the Democrats, so they can accuse them of dragging this through the courts. At the very least, they would prefer that the burden be on the Democrats to prove in a contest that these ballots should be counted. Oh… and apparently it is all Larry Phillips fault.
As I figured, the GOP case all comes down to whether these ballots were “rejected,” and the King County attorney clearly argues that there was “no affirmative rejection”, but rather, that the ballots were “misfiled.” That said, she also argues that the canvassing board has the right to re-examine rejected ballots, at its discretion.
However, the most important new piece of information learned in the hearing this morning is that King County has located 583 signatures out of the 723 ballots in question. It seems likely that these ballots would add about 120 votes to Christine Gregoire’s margin… if counted.
To be fair to the Republicans, it’s a common legal strategy to argue “Here’s why I think you should believe (X), but even if you believe (Y), here’s why I’m still right” – Happens all the time in court.
The court was not buying the Republican’s arguments. The (Republican)Secretary of State coming out against the Rs was pretty lethal and continued to take the moderate ground supporting the counting of ballots or at least their canvassing.
An issue brought to a point for the first time is what is the harm in counting the votes and letting the press know of the preliminary count? The Republicans could only cite to a political harm of being viewed as “behind.”
My odds 3-1 knocking out the TRO.
Alot of the case is based on the “status quo.” That is, if the Rs believe some votes are not valid, they should wait to conduct an election contest.
Look for a decision tonight. Please don’t let the underlying action continue and have discovery and depositions.
If the Republicans want to cite the political harm of being viewed as behind than that should apply to not releasing the results of the first count or the machine recount, since those aren’t definitively the final count (depends on the circumstances of each count).
Agree with you Erik. As the session went on the Republicans became ‘more confused’ in what they were arguing and with whom they were arguing. It should be a fairly quick decision. Question, if they do not allow KC’s ballots will they also make the other counties subtract all of their ‘changes’ made in the hand recount?
Thanks and Happy Holiday season to all
I was most disappointed that Justice Chambers only half-asked the Republicans’ attorney Mr. Korrell the question: if the ‘universe of ballots’ in a recount can’t be changed, can’t be expanded, then it can’t be shrunk, either — so, your position is that if they find out during the manual recount that ten ballots are from dead people, they have to count them anyway? He didn’t get an answer.
remember that other counties across WA have ~250 pro-rossi votes that can be recanvassed should the court side with KC. I would say dems should hope they side with the Republicans, if there truly is an 8 vote lead after KC.
bmvaughn – As I pointed out on another thread, those ~250 votes include signature mismatches. If you want to open that can of worms, KC has another +1000 votes that it could recanvass.
bmvaughn,
The big difference here is that all of the other counties have finalized their canvassing and certified their votes. The canvassing boards in all of the other counties will not be counting any more votes. King County, on the other hand, was stopped from completing their canvassing.
Erik – also remember that the votes the Repubs are trotting out are in an (arguably) different class than the 700+ – the ~250 aren’t the same because they were rejected for a variety of reasons (including signature mismatches). Repubs don’t want you to see it, but what they’re asking for is the complete recanvass they argued against the first time. And if they got it, it would include more than just the 700+ accidental mis-files. It would include another 1000-1500 rejects in KC alone.
By the way, I just looked up the answer to the last question Justice Ireland asked of Mr. Ahearne (attorney for Secretary of State Reed), which he didn’t handle well (classic mistake — not recognizing a friendly question): Yes, he should have said, canvassing ballots includes not just checking signatures, but the whole process including counting and tabulating them! See RCW 29A.04.013 (“Canvassing.”):
“Canvassing” means the process of examining ballots or groups of ballots, subtotals, and cumulative totals in order to determine the official returns of a primary or general election and includes the tabulation of any votes that were not tabulated at the precinct or in a counting center on the day of the primary or election.
So the canvassing board’s authority under the “safety valve” provision RCW 29A.60.210 to “recanvass the ballots or voting devices” is broad.
And, more to the point, the 723 ballots weren’t fully canvassed during the election.
Point of info – last night the King Co spokesperson, Bobbie, was quoted as saying they have good sig. matches of 700 of these votes in question. Surprised the King Co attorney was not up to speed.
She needs a hearing aide, missed the thrust of two questions completely.
In this kind of deliberation, the speel is one thing, but careful attention to the justices is very important.
Sec of State guy should get credit for carrying the ball up and down the field several times. Good, impassioned, and mocked the R’s over and over.
Very pointed questions from three of the women…..bodes well
for the Dems. R’ guy just chattering away, almost incoherent most of it.
And, fucking of course, all the other Counties are finished, none of them have 890.000 ballots to count.
Was surprised on of the Justices with a little barb in their style didn’t ask the R attorney why he kept talking is if it meant anything to the Court, who the bllott was counted for and who is a Rossi voter or a Gregoire voter, and why they should give a shit arbout who is ahead or behind in a partisian race. HEY R’ BABBING BROOK- some of these, serveral hunded of the King Co ballots are for Rossi.
Sad.
Now Sound Politics has apparently given up completely. Now all that is there is some quibbles about “voter registration irregularity” and how it is “shocking” that there was a last minute flood of voter registration in King County and, (here’s the awe part) shows through graphic representation a time v. voter registration graph with an upward trend.
If there is any sign that Rossi’s team has run out of steam and is resigned to losing, this may be it.
uh oh, looks like some corrections… http://www.votewashington.org/.....sw.tpl?c=0
Rossi gained 17 in the recount, not 7.. so he wins by 2 votes!!!!!!!!
Folks- the other counties are not done until the SecState certifies- think, both Chelan and Thurston reopened to add a single vote each…
And the difference between what the Republicans are threatening- having some 250 voters request that the county canvassing boards review their individual decisions- is different than the canvassing boards reopening cases- or their whole county- on their own.
One of the Democrats problems in seeking the complete recanvass is that they did not have a lot of voters directly identified and clammoring for it…
So, if King County reports officially today and Christine comes out ahead (without the 723), doesn’t that evaporate the Republicans’ ‘irreparable harm’ argument (that they might not look like winners anymore)? I can’t imagine that the Court will let the TRO stand, whether or not that happens: 1) not only is being behind in the vote tally not “actual substantial injury,” but 2) the equities of validating voters’ rights outweigh the parties’ desire to be at an advantage, and 3) the decision to allow votes to be counted isn’t irreparable, because (as we are all hearing) the Republicans are getting ready to contest the election.
My guess is that the Court will grant the motion for discretionary review, dissolve the TRO, and issue a decision affirming the discretion of canvassing boards to recanvass under section .210, remanding to the Superior Court to dismiss the case (they don’t want to see this issue *again* on appeal of a final order), and requiring the King County Canvassing Board to keep the 723 ballots separate in order to preserve the Republicans’ rights to contest the election.
according to the vote washington site votewa.org, rossi has gained 17 votes in the recount. This combined with the King County votes would give Rossi a 2 vote edge.
So sorry.
How did Whitman revise it’s totals, according to that site, to remove 9 votes that they previously added?
The official SOS website does not state that the vote totals have changed:
http://vote.wa.gov/general/recount.aspx
As I said- the other counties are not final, official, certified, etc., either…
The game is now afoot… Brendt wanted bragging rights, when he should have kept his fool mouth shut last night…
The Republicans’ threats to have 250 Rossi voters challenge ballot invalidations is different because individuals would be challenging actual official decisions to reject ballots, whereas the King County canvassing board is arguing that it is merely correcting a discrepancy identified in their counting procedures and that it never rejected the 723 in the first place but merely discovered employees mistakenly put them in the wrong pile.
There is definitely a possibility for role-reversal nuttiness in this. I noticed that during (King County attorney) Ms. Joly’s rebuttal time, Justice Ireland got her to admit that it didn’t matter to *her* argument whether the 723 ballots had been ‘rejected’ or not, because her position is that the county canvassing board can revisit any decision. But it does matter to the *Republicans’* argument, because their position is that a decision to reject a ballot cannot be undone in a recount. If, as I expect, this case goes against the Republicans, count on them to argue that because King County’s interpretation won, other counties can now consider individual voters’ ballot-rejection challenges. Which will lead to another set of court battles (oy), unless the Court makes clear in its decision that .210 allows correction of discrepancies or inconsistencies in the returns, but not reconsideration of any decision made by the canvassing board even where there’s no procedural mistakes involved. The 250 threatened challenges are properly part of contesting the election, not finalizing the recount.
As I said- the other counties are not final, official, certified, etc., either…
>The game is now afoot… Brendt wanted bragging rights, when he should >have kept his fool mouth shut last night…
Yes, perhaps. But there is a struggle to see who can characterize themselves as the the presumptive governor, and thereby the other as a spoil sport and sore loser. The first attempt was 6 weeks ago when Rossi said he was going to clean his garage.
Brendt had better have a good reason for his statements or he is going to look very bad. Especially when he pulls out the Republican line as he did last night and starts shouting “conced…conced.” We will know at 3:30 p.m.
votewashington.org does show some changes in Whitman and Spokane Counties, and possibly other counties as well. Maybe these are real changes. It should be interesting. Nothing says that other counties can’t update their totals if they were incorrect. Perhaps the county canvassing boards went back and changed their standards for evaluating questionable ballots, to be consistent with the practices being followed in King County. If the D majority canvassing board in King County can be prejudiced in favor of Gregoire, then it would be perfectly acceptable for the R majority canvassing boards in these small counties to change their standards and be prejudiced in favor of Rossi.
I would be interested to know if there is a real change, if it was previously counted ballots that had a final determination (meaning counting a 4th time), or other ballots in the can’t be determined pile…
Well, I went and did the checking…
For some reason, on votewashington.org, some counties have revised the first recount- so that changes the differential from the first to second recounts- but the bottom line remains the same because the revisions LOWERED Rossi’s margin in the first recount…
VoteWashington.org still shows Rossi net 50 up (they have yet to include the change in Thurston- Thurston just officially reported that to the SOS this morning, which is why SOS page shows an update as of 11:27am today…
To clarify and summarize my last comment, each of Rossi’s threatened 250 challengers would be arguing not that there was an error in the tabulation or a discrepancy in the returns (like including unreviewed signatures in the “not matching” count), but that the canvassing board made the wrong decision in rejecting their ballots. Arguing that is contesting the election. Not correcting a discrepancy during the recount under .210.
The court has issued a unanimous opinion reversing the Pierce County Superior Court and ordering dismissal of the case…
Wow. Is KC still going to proceed with releasing the results today without those ballots included?
The decision is short and easy to read:
http://www.courts.wa.gov/newsi.....der_041222
I anticipate King County will release preliminary today, before 3:30pm, as announced. The King County Canvassing Board is scheduled to meet at 3:30pm tomorrow, at which point they should certify the complete return…
The only remaining question on the manual recount is whether, in the next twenty-four hours, the Republicans will get any other county reopened, or if Sam Reed will be prepared to certify the manual count before close of business tomorrow.
Hey, I’m 2-for-2 on court predictions this season. Yay me. Who wants to hire me? :)
Are they going to start counting whatever number of the 700+ they can find signature matches for today?
The opinion (in PDF form) is at http://www.secstate.wa.gov
Now it’s up to King County and Rossi to do the right things: include those 700+ votes and concede the election.
King County is going to try and have everything done, except any ballots that need review by the canvassing board, before the 3:30pm Thursday meeting of the canvassing board…
I’ll be looking for Josef in his orange jump suit tomorrow right next to the paid “protestors” from the BIAW and the RNC.
jcricket- please be a charitable winner, especially towards Josef. He’s passionate about his cause, and he’s been touched deeply by some of our current events.
If only all citizens cared as much…
Fair enough. If you’re passionate enough to protest, you should be doing that. I’m the last one to be telling people not to exercise their constitutional rights.
jcricket- thanks. We’ll talk more over the beer bash Goldy’s going to host and make me pay for… someday…
I wouldn’t mind meeting some people here at a beer bash someday. Of course not sure if having beer is more or less likely to make us get along :)
Comment by Jim King— 12/22/04 @ 2:12 pm
Oh, thank you Jim. God bless you.