For Chapter One, click here.
Josh Feit, 8/15/07:
I’m not sure King County progressives owe that much to Gregoire (hello, elevated viaduct), but it’d sure be a fitting metaphor if Seattle sold out, compromised, and approved a package that includes $1.1 billion on I-405 expansion as a way to support her.
The surface/transit option involves investing in local transit, upgrading downtown arterials, investing in bike and pedestrian upgrades, and building a four-lane surface road to replace the viaduct and spark neighborhood and commercial development along the waterfront. (Total bill hovers around $2 billion.)
The Stranger’s News Editor, Josh Feit, is totally opposed to replacing the Alaskan Way Viaduct with another viaduct. Josh is almost entirely opposed to investing money in roads, in the Seattle area or elsewhere.
He’s in a pickle.
The Roads and Transit package headed to voters this fall funds the investments in Seattle-area arterials. These are the investments that make the Surface + Transit option possible.
From the Roads and Transit website:
Lander Street Improvements: Builds overpass above BNSF train tracks between 1st Avenue South and 4th Avenue South to increase traffic flow for trains, cars, trucks, bicycles and pedestrians; I-5/Spokane Street Viaduct: Increases capacity by widening viaduct structure, adding one lane between I-5 and 1st Avenue South, building transit-only lanes and an off-ramp at 4th Avenue South. Adds shoulders and installs a permanent median barrier. Improves safety, freight mobility and traffic flow on the major east/west connection between I-5 and SR 99, Port of Seattle and West Seattle
To make Surface + Transit happen, we have to invest in the arterials south of downtown Seattle. If we don’t invest in these roads, it’ll be pretty difficult to keep the folks in Olympia from shoving another viaduct down our throats.
Sorry. We’re going to pass RTID, we’re going to get the South End improvements, AND we’re going to get a repaired Viaduct.
Are King County, Seattle, and WA State Moonbat!s proactive or reactive?
If this infrastructure was needed before, why was the Soundless Transit light rail shoved down our throats? Seems to me this was someone’s pet project to shepherd people from their cars and use “our progressive” transportation means. Too bad for flexibility, you need to do as I say!
Isn’t this the same gang of brainiac thought who brought you a convention center located over I-5 prohibiting any expansion what so ever?
@3
The convention center is one of Seattle’s few beautiful buildings.
What really limits expansion of I5 through Seattle is … Seattle. You can only shove so much ketchup down the mouth of a ketchup bottle. Using Seattle as a NS through way makes no sense! Any NS expansion should be done on the Eastside.
Highways through Seattle should have one major function … getting stuff into and out of the city, supporting commerce in the emerging Eveattleoma megacity.
That said what pisses me off is that none of these plans deal with the city’s own layout. It is simply nits to have only two NS routes through Seattle and ne EW routes that are not freeways. I believe the city needs at least one NS route that connects Lake City and Renton and this shuld be done NOW before the property gets so built up that it is impossible. AND this through way ought to be normal if broad surface street to support shopping and high density housing.
In the same vein, I believe the Mercer Mess should be solved as aprt of a plan to provide much needed EW traffic from AMGEN to Lake Washington, again with the intent of promoting housing and commerce rather than just providing access to I5.
But what the Hell, I am a molecular biologist what do I know about urban planning?
Ivan, I don’t think we disagree on this one.
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Ahhh SeattleJew: I agree with the Lake City to Renton corridor need. Butt like all good money grubbing Moonbat!s, the lost “tax revenue” will cancel that option.
With the Seattle “White Flight” to the Burbs cuz the schools suck (John Stamford was their last hope), where will they get their needed deep pocket spending revenue? My Peeps? No way, they keep my peeps down with few opportunities to progress out of the “real quagmire”: Seattle Inner City Blues!
How will they pay for that new Key Arena? Wait a minute… it’s not needed now! They didn’t know the Sonics Owner wasn’t serious. So how much other stuff are they planning to spend for when other people may not be serious?
@3 I’ve attended many functions at the Convention Center, including legal seminars and press conferences, and I don’t see any problems with the building. It doesn’t seem small to a 30-lb. rabbit who has to hop up four flights of stairs.
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Golly Pelletizer it’s not the building it’s the building location.
If RTID was going to pay for the $3 billion in repairs and repaving that I-5 needs in Seattle, I’d vote for it.
But it doesn’t.
Where will the money for that come from? Chopp and Jacobsen will just slap more sales taxes on us ON TOP OF the ST1 sales taxes, the ST2 sales taxes, and the RTID sales taxes. Oh yeah, and THE REST of the sales taxes that we pay that give us about the most regressive tax structure of anyplace in the country.
You know those nice liberal Dem’s we’ve faithfully been electing to every goddamned office in this state? Well guess what kiddos, once they assume the reins of power they turn into fucking nazis when it comes to tax policy. They are reaming the poorest among us with the most regressive kind of tax possible.
There are FAR better ways to raise revenue for roads and trains – do not vote to punish those who can least afford it just because the Dems in the legislature don’t want to raise taxes. No in NOvember.
Pelletizer @8: Try the escalators and time your “jump” accordingly!
dick whiskey: I haven’t hear it called that since my days in downtown Ithaca.
It’s refreshing to see someone call them as they really are: Tax Nazis. That’s what they are and they will steal from your wallet to make sure their view of the New Progressive traffic infrastructure will be in your front view ASAP!
@7 Welll …. the numbers belie your fantasy. Seattle is growing. And it will grow. As fuel increases in cost, financil incentive to develop central cities is inevitable.
It is idiocy to think of Seattle as NS corridor. The Viaduct SHOULD come down, allthe data I see says few people use it for NS traffic, it is used to get into and out of Seattle.
What we need is a better street level system. It is NOT hard to figure out how to do this.
23rd Momtlake should become a Boulevard, it could take on MLK’s name if that helps or maybe Cheif Seattle?
Mercer needs to be widened or added to to have second X city route south of lake Union AND this should ne extended across the great barrier of I% to rejoin Cap Hill with SLU.
Yesler and Broadway need to be made into Boulevards.
But then what does a former Cdr in the USN know either?
oops
Mercer needs to be widened or added to to have a second X city route south of Lake Union AND this should be extended across the great barrier of I5 to rejoin Cap Hill with SLU.
3 “I believe the Mercer Mess should be solved as aprt of a plan to provide much needed EW traffic from AMGEN to Lake Washington”
It sounds like Amgen isn’t going to be as much of a problem for a while.
11 – Your argument makes no sense. You say you want RTID to be about I5 in Seattle and then in the next paragraph object to the funding mechanism.
Either way it’s a loser for you. A “Regional” package can’t be just about Seattle and if you object to the regressive tax structure in this state how can you support anything that can only be funded that way?
I’m not voting for RTID either. If we’re going to do big infrastructure projects in this State then we’ll have to fix the tax system so they can be funded sustainably.
Your comment just leads up to bashing the Dems who unfortunately sees effective tax reform as a third rail. You r energy would be better placed if you could persuade them and the Republicans to see things differently.
The cuts in Seattle will be fairly small. I am more concerned for the long run. AMGEN now has a pretty bad location in California in a hard to get to place with no room to grow. I wonder if they might not even consolidate up here .. though my test quesitions never lead to encouraging answers.
More to the point, that area is Seattle’s last prime developable property. In many ways it is more valuable than SLU. However trying to get from Eliott bay marina to anyplace other than Ballard or the Edgewater is horrible. A cross city road, connecting Ellott. Aurora, SLU, and Capital Hill would improve the traffic capacity of the entire northern part of downtown, encourage retail growth on Broadway and SLU, and improve utilization of housing on W. Cap. Hill. Also, combined with my idea for a NS road through 23rd, it would DECREASE pressure on I5 and Aurora 99. Other than californicators, noone would prtefer the freeway to get from I 520 to the ID, if there were a boulevard where 23rd is now. Better yet, this wold encourage business development in the Rainier valley ANF provide a terrific corridor for a NS light rail connecting the UW with the souther side of the city.
The idotic alternative to broaden 99 and I5, till they meet. the we will have no need for a down town. Viva Tacoma!
Puddybud, let me guess what your solutions for the problems of inner cities are:
Hmmmm. Enterprise Zones?
Hmmmm. Vouchers?
Did I miss anything?
There are FAR better ways to raise revenue for roads and trains
So let’s hear them. Are we supposed to take your word for it?
@20
My 2 cents.
Well, I think people who profit from roads ought to pay for waht they will get. Tolls are just part of the issue. If the Mercer Mess is fixed , Paul Allan will make out like
banditbillionaire real estate baron.Re: raising revenue for roads, buses, trains:
– per mile charge, collected at the time tabs are renewed;
– much higher gas tax (encourages conservation, decreases GHGs, and raises revenue;
– variable tolls (RFID technology, charge more on certain roads at certain times of day);
– tax on profitable businesses (what GWB giveth, the state should take parteth away);
– tax on dividends paid to WA residents (see above – GWB giveth too much, and businesses are the primary beneficiaries of road throughput and commuter rail);
– higher fares; and
– employer tax (less than six employees exempt, five bucks per month per employee – a drop in the bucket for employers).
Those are just some ideas off the top of my head . . .. But yeah, sales taxes here are way too high. We are indeed at the bottom of the nationwide pool on that score. For a “progressive” state, the taxing structure is way too regressive.
And for the record, an income tax of a few percent on the top 20% would be AWESOME. That’ll take some time, but the rest of what I’ve described here could be implemented quickly.
cheers!
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15 SJ,
It may make more sense to widen Denney than Mercer as a cross-town route over Cap. Hill. You have to satisfy the arts folks along with everyone else here, and if you stand by Mercer St. and look east over the freeway, you’ll see Cornish School and St. Mark’s Cathedral (with its much-treasured Flentrop organ). The biggest obstacle to extending Denney over the top of the hill is Group Health Central, and that’s being allowed to die a slow death anyway.
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-To make Surface + Transit happen, we have to invest in the arterials south of downtown Seattle. If we don’t invest in these roads, it’ll be pretty difficult to keep the folks in Olympia from shoving another viaduct down our throats. –
Will, you (and of course Josh) forgot to mention the two big RTID projects which will divert North-South traffic off of I-5, and off Seattle’s waterfront: 405 and 167.
405 is the most congested freeway in the state, and when 405 grinds to a standstill (167, too) drivers shift over to I-5, even if I-5 is already bad. When I-5 slows to a crawl – which is often the case north/south to 520 until 10:30 every morning, thanks to the eastbound backup on 520 – drivers listening to the radio shift over to SR 99.
This pattern happens like clockwork almost every day of the week. Accident on 405? Watch I-5 turn into a parking lot, and the Viaduct slow to a crawl.
So, even if you’re a Seattleite who screams “no new lanes for 405 and 167!” because you don’t think it affects you…it does. All these freeways are interconnected, and will become moreso with the emergence of traffic flow maps on handhelds and GPS units.
So, since the RTID does not propose any new lanes for I-5, and suburban voters are demanding highway widening for their own corridors, this is a simple WIN-WIN situation with the RTID projects in November. Give people what they want: rail and bus and basic safety fixes for the city, and freeways that give suburban and exurban a more safe an reliable north-south route away from the urban core.
Pretty easy stuff to figure out – even for a Capitol Hill elitist pushing a “NO NEW FREEWAYS!” agenda.
Oh, stop it! You’re making me want to go out and eat a Fatburgur.
[Off Topic, deleted. I’m erasing as best I can! -Will]
Hold the phone here….
There isn’t anything particularly wrong with the surface “extension” of the Viaduct south of Lander, is there? I mean, it’s not about to fall down or anything. Might be a good idea to do something from there down Marginal to cross the river and connect with 509, but what gets done there isn’t directly connected with what to do along Alaskan Way…other than perhaps to redirect the traffic at the north end to get the downtown-bound commuters parked somewhere.
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So why doesn’t the state request the Feds to have an outer loop, which goes around cities to get passers through around Seattle. In fact it could be configured to start at Olympia and head east with feeders to Tacoma, Seattle and Everett and come out above Arlington?
Shucks, I’d pay taxes to have that built!
Shucks, I’d pay taxes to have that built!
Send the dough first. Then we’ll talk.
“[Off Topic, deleted. -Will]”
THANK YOU WILL. What part of “Stay on topic” you idiots can’t understand?
I totally agree with you, Will, especially part 1…people will use transit if it is a viable option, and you won’t get to viability until you build it.
I also don’t understand this idea from the anti-road folks that defeating this plan will get us a more pro-transit measure next time. If anything, I bet the opposite would happen.
Why do roads and transit have to be an either/or?
Wrong ASSProud. Put forth the the new road building measure, propose it to the Feds and I would work against Tim Eyman if he came out against it.
We have two Moonbat! senators who should be able to bring home some pork building right? Both kiss Scary Reids ass right?
How does that sound?
@10 What’s wrong with the location? What’s wrong with locating the Convention Center in the center of downtown? Where should they put it? In Ballard?
@13 It sucks when you can’t freeload on other people’s taxes, doesn’t?
@ 44
I think Pud’s point is that the Convention Center should never have been placed directly over a major N/S freeway.
If the CC wasn’t there, we’d be able to widen the freeway through downtown, making the AWV that much more redundant.
@45
What benefit would come from widening the freeway? The capacity of Seattle to carry NS traffic is finite. Any changes to the free way should emphasize gettking into or out of Seattle.
If I had my druthers
wethey would never have built the freeway. As long as the thing is there, the more lidding we can achieve, the bwtter of we will be.Look, a lot of folks in this blogs are fans of downtown Seattle. Cool. Now imagine a freeway cutting through Manhattan, Boston, DC, Baltimore, Rome or Paris …
Gak.
@39 State goes to
bankruptfeds for $$ to fix our highway system? Maybe, after 4 years ofObama Clinton any demwhen we actually ahve a sensible economy again.Forgive me for being a skeptic, but we are a wealthy region. Why in hell should folks in Mississippi pay for our fixing our roads?
Kudos Will: At least you got my convention center comment.
Most people here are dense as spent uranium!
SeattleJew: Hence my point to route passing through drivers around Seattle and the environs soooooooo they reduce the car footprint in the Tacoma-Seattle-Everett corridor.
@49 P)_uddy
We agree, I was just suggesting that we should not be so dependednt on the Feds.
Great Idea ..
We ditch the 520m brisge and replace it with the GBE*… a suspension bridge over Lake Washington, from Lake City to Renton with exit ramps to Hunt’s point, Laurel Hurst and M Island. Moreover, we would design it like an autobahn to support mean speeds in excess of 100, the lower speed limit might be 90.
What FUN! Imagine watching a car crash over the side from a boat on Lake W!
The environmental benefits of removing the floating monsters are cool too.
We could also encourage GBE sports … bungy jumping! and art, flags and streamers! Can you imagine watching the hydro races form 300 feet in the air!
Microsoft could buy the naming rights and use the bridge as a platform of a huge rear projection screen to put on free movies in the summer time!
Finally, this would solve Renton’s problems of how to became a major city. All those card dealers at the foot of the GBE!!! The tourist attraction alone might pay our costs!
*the Greatest Bridge Ever.