Just a quick note to our friends at Slog. I’m totally fine with building fences along the Aurora Bridge, but can we cut out the nonsense that it’s going to save the lives of the suicidal? Fencing off the Aurora Bridge will not save those lives for the same reason that fencing off the Mexican border will not stop illegal immigration.
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Lee-
I’m with you….it’s absolute nonsense to think that fencing off the Aurora Bridge will save lives.
I hope you are starting to get an inkling of the goofy mindset of many of your fellow KLOWNS Lee.
Feelgood THEORIES abound for you guys!
Next SLOG will want to handout Prozac at the Coop!
@1
So you’ve never advocated fencing off the Mexican border as a way to stop illegal immigration? If so, good for you.
I’m going to have to disagree Lee’s assertion. Fences do stop, or dramatically cut back on certain behavior.
– Putting a fence around prisons stops/cuts back on escapes.
– Putting a fence up on the observation deck of the Space Needle stopped/cut back on the number of people who jumped off the Space Needle.
So putting a big fence along the Mexican border would logically and dramatically cut back on the number of people crossing the border. A fence will also cut back on the number of people who jump off the bridge, and that’s a good thing.
Fencing the Aurora Bridge probably won’t deter those who are really hell bent on offing themselves. They’ll merely go jump off of something else, drive into the side of a building, swallow Drano or buy a firearm and use it on themselves.
This will, on the other hand, still benefit the folks (including my sister-in-law) who work at Adobe or one of its neighbors underneath the bridge, who are more than a trifle upset at having human bodies go SPLATTTT! onto their parked cars.
As long as they put barbed wire atop this new fence, it will deter jumpers. But at what cost? How much will be spent to stop a few jumpers for the Aurora Bridge? And what is this same groups plan for all of our other over passes? Will we be living with barbed wire fence along all our over passes in the future?
Someone who is truly suicidal will not be deterred by a fence, they will find other means.
@4
Exactly.
@3
My assertion was not “fences are always useless”. My assertion was that “fences are useless when they can only partially contain a much larger phenomenon of humanity”.
So putting a big fence along the Mexican border would logically and dramatically cut back on the number of people crossing the border. A fence will also cut back on the number of people who jump off the bridge, and that’s a good thing.
Putting a big fence along the Mexican border will only re-direct how people sneak into this country, while putting a fence along the Aurora Bridge will only redirect how people act upon their suicidal tendencies.
Someone ought to put up fences around Dave Reichert’s 2nd floor office on Mercer Island.
Come this fall he just might become “Jumper Dave.”
A fence will however deter impulsive suicides, there is a correlation between easy access to a method for suicide and attempts. While it will not prevent any suicides that are planned ahead, it can have a small impact on those that are not.
How much is this fence costing?
Perhaps, Artfart, a sign would suffice. “Jumpers please use the middle of the bridge.”
10 Nah. That still wouldn’t account for windage.
@6
“Putting a big fence along the Mexican border will only re-direct how people sneak into this country.”
I disagree. It’s estimated over one million people cross the southern border each year. How are one million people per year going to be redirected? In boats?
In Israel, a security fence was built, and nothing was redirected. It dramatically cut back on the suicide bombings and terrorist activity within Israel. Everyone agrees the security fence is a big deterrent from people entering Israel illegally. Even the leader of Palestinian Islamic Jihad admitted the fence has put a major dent in its ability to carry out operations in Israel.
“But you can’t compare suicide bombers to undocumented immigrants! They are just trying to make a living! They are just doing jobs we don’t want to do!” Ok, now you are shifting the argument, and missing my point. I’m not comparing the two. I’m giving you an example of how border fences do work. They don’t simply redirect people, they actually can stop most people from crossing the border.
I disagree. It’s estimated over one million people cross the southern border each year. How are one million people per year going to be redirected? In boats?
Tunnels. In trucks. And definitely by sea. The area that Israel has walled in is tiny compared to the U.S.-Mexico border. And people still sneak out and in through tunnels. That’s not to mention the fact that we will still allow all sorts of commerce to flow through the border, while Israel has mainly shut much of that off. Cutting off commercial travel across the U.S.-Mexico border ain’t gonna happen.
@13
Are you responding to anyone in particular, or have you lost more of your mind?
@13
In addition, when it comes to Israel, it’s worth pointing out that while building a fence has made it harder for suicide bombers to come into Israel, it hasn’t solved the root problems there, which continue to get worse. And THAT’S the important lesson to be understood here.
1. We need to impose the death penalty on anyone who commits suicide! That otta dter them!
Or maybe .. we could impose a life penalty???
2. The answer to the effin southern border is SIMPLE …
national ID cards with strict enforcement of jobs rules. Who would want to live here with no jobs?
ID cards seem to upset the ACLU and the Rad Right. Both should get over it. There are so many ways to trace folks today that this would add little.
3. The FAR bigger issues is the est 14 million illegals. I would say we should deport them all except that the cost is astronomic. 40-50 billion dollars!
In this case lil Bush and John McC had the better idea … make jobs hard to get, createa woprker program that admits a desirable number, the rest leave because of dollars and we do not need either a Gestapo like program to deportfolks or a silly fence.
@17
ID cards seem to upset the ACLU and the Rad Right. Both should get over it. There are so many ways to trace folks today that this would add little.
If there are so many ways to trace people, then how come we can’t find illegal immigrants? And since we can’t find the illegal immigrants with all the mechanisms we have to trace people, why do you think implementing a national ID card would work any better?
The FAR bigger issues is the est 14 million illegals. I would say we should deport them all except that the cost is astronomic. 40-50 billion dollars!
Why deport them? Why don’t we pull them out of the shadows and into our economic system? How are they any different than the Jews, Italians, Poles, and others who came here a century ago to work?
Troll @3
“Putting a fence around prisons stops/cuts back on escapes.”
I really think that has more to do with the armed guards everywhere. If they put up a fence and then left, the prisoners would probably find a way out.
Interesting my last post of a video of an illegal immigrant stabbing to death a mother trying to protect her baby two days ago didn’t post.
@20
Interesting my last post of a video of an illegal immigrant stabbing to death a mother trying to protect her baby two days ago didn’t post.
How is this relevant to what we’re talking about? There are 14 million illegal immigrants in this country. Exactly how stupid do you have to be to think that the actions of one of them is characteristic of all of them? That’s like saying that all Washingtonians are like Gary Ridgeway or Ted Bundy. Or that all Californians are like Charles Manson.
Are you really that stupid, or are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose?
21
“Are you really that stupid, or are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose?”
Whether he admits it or not, undoubtedly the answer is “both”.
I just thought it was an appropriate video. You don’t want to see the realities of your political decisions? It happened two days ago. A woman in the Houston area was carjacked by an illegal. She resisted to protect her baby, so he stabbed her to death. It was all caught on tape.
With a fence, she would mostly likely still be alive today. With no fence (your solution), I wanted to show you the reality of your stance.
Anyway, if you want to see an illegal immigrant stabbing to death a mother, go to youtube, and put in the key words carjack and tina. It happened just two days ago. BTW, they just caught the piece of garbage.
Correction, they caught one of them. They are still looking for the other illegal, but fear he is heading toward the (unfenced) border to go back to Mexico.
@23
I just thought it was an appropriate video. You don’t want to see the realities of your political decisions? It happened two days ago. A woman in the Houston area was carjacked by an illegal. She resisted to protect her baby, so he stabbed her to death. It was all caught on tape.
How does that demonstrate the realities of my political decisions? Are you saying that all Washingtonians should be locked up in jail because of Ted Bundy? Are you saying that all Californians should be locked up in jail because of Charles Manson? I don’t understand your point. The fact that he was an illegal immigrant did not make him any more likely to commit that crime. In fact, a number of studies have shown that illegal immigrants are actually less likely to commit violent crimes.
With a fence, she would mostly likely still be alive today. With no fence (your solution), I wanted to show you the reality of your stance.
Absolutely not. And I’ve already adequately explained why that is to you. Again, I ask you – are you being stupid on purpose right now, or does this come naturally for you?
Anyway, if you want to see an illegal immigrant stabbing to death a mother, go to youtube, and put in the key words carjack and tina. It happened just two days ago. BTW, they just caught the piece of garbage.
Good, I’m glad they caught him. We need to get dangerous people off the streets, regardless of their citizenship status. But if you think that an illegal immigrant is more likely to commit a crime like that, you’re being willfully ignorant.
So anyone who disagrees with you on border control is stupid?
So anyone who disagrees with you on border control is stupid?
No, but someone who thinks that a bad deed by a single illegal immigrant is somehow representative of all illegal immigrants is worthy of severe ridicule. You can provide rationales for building a border fence and I’ll gladly explain why those rationales are either invalid or irrelevant. I’ve done it a million times. But suggesting that the people who come here illegally are more dangerous or more prone to criminally is not just factually incorrect, but a sign of extreme ignorance and generally an indication of an underlying prejudice.
I never said they were more dangerous. I do believe that it’s more likely that that mother who was stabbed to death by an illegal immigrant would be alive today if there were much tighter border controls.
Our Republican friends better hurry up and get that fence built on the Mexican border!
If they don’t, within a few years Americans will be flooding into Mexico for the higher wages there, and that will give Mexico an excuse to start a war with us!
Of course, they’ll win, and repossess Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California! This will be the ultimate outcome of a McCain presidency.
@28
The flaw in your logic is that you believe that illegal immigrants are here solely because of a lack of border controls. That’s a tiny and largely irrelevant piece of the puzzle. It’s driven by economics and the drug war.
@28
The best, “controls” we can have on the border down south is to have better control on who the cheap labor folks (largely Republican) hire.
@31
And sadly, we’re really far from ever making that happen in an effective way.
Um… wasn’t this actually about fences on the Aurora Bridge?
Anyway, getting back to THAT (let’s do the immigration thing later, eh?) Lee is wrong. A fence almost certainly WILL cut down- at least a bit- on suicides, both from the bridge and overall.
That said, ultimately, folks who ARE determined to kill themselves probably will. The thing is that people in that frame of mind aren’t often that DETERMINED to do things; indeed, they’re depressed and lifeless.
That’s kind of the point of the fence. It cuts down on the number of people who do it as a spur of the moment thing. Make it even a tiny bit harder to do, and that will stop some folks from doing it.
But even if you’re a heartless bastard when it comes to the suicidal, the fence will help those who’re stuck dealing with the aftermath of the suicides underneath the bridge.
So if you reject the “it’ll stop/slow suicides” reason for the fence, think of the practical effects on the people/businesses underneath the bridge.
Two things:
1) The Aurora bridge probably can’t handle the wind load of a fence. A mile of chain link doesn’t seem very solid, but there’s enough side load in a storm to overload the lateral supports.
2) Committing one illegal act often begets committing others to cover up the first. Most Illegals think nothing of buying fraudulent ID to work, thereby committing a second crime. And it snowballs from there.
Reduce services and you’ll see illegal immigration drop drastically. And we might actually have fewer emergency rooms closing in southern California due to huge budget deficits. http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt.....02521.html
Nearly 300 illegal immigrants were convicted on driving-while-impaired charges and placed in North Carolina prisons in 2007.
Hispanics also account for 18 percent of drunken-driving arrests, while making up less than 7 percent of the state’s population, according to a study from the University of North Carolina Highway Safety Research Center aired in WRAL’s documentary “Focal Point: Crossing the Line.”
The study also showed that Hispanics involved in car crashes were 2.5 times more likely to be drunk than white drivers and three times more likely to be drunk than black drivers.
@35 Which makes 300 drunk drivers guilty of drunk driving. But it doesn’t convict a single other immigrant (legal or otherwise) of anything.
Only a pea-wit like you blames an entire group for the actions of a few individuals.
@34
Ah, yes, the “make the United States a shithole” strategy for keeping illegals out. Delbert, you never fail to disappoint around here for taking the wrong side in an argument and finding to dumbest way to defend it.
@33
Paul, as I’ve made clear a number of times, I agree with your latter rationale for building the fence. However, I still don’t agree that the barrier will cut down on suicides. No one has been able to show me a community where a suicide barrier has been successful at lowering the number of suicides in the community at large.
It has to do with the fact that people who have suicidal tendencies will tend to focus on a particular method of suicide. If you make a bridge inaccessible to jumping, a person will simply focus on another method. Just because the act itself is often impulsive doesn’t mean that there were never any thought processes previous to that event. People who have never had suicidal thoughts don’t just one day walk across a bridge and become convinced to kill themselves.