I was just pleasantly surprised to hear that Tim Eyman’s I-917, the YATDCT Initiative (“Yet Another Thirty Dollar Car Tab”), may not qualify for the ballot after all.
Eyman had claimed to have turned in over 300,000 signatures, yet the Secretary of State’s office has only counted about 266,000. That means a rejection rate of about 15.5 percent or more would put I-917 under the required 224,880 signature threshold.
How likely is that? According to past performance, moderately damn. The SOS reports that statistical samples of last year’s initiatives showed rejection rates of 13, 16, 17, 19, and 26 percent. The office is preparing to do a statistical sample of I-917, and if it’s close they’ll have to verify every last signature. It may be weeks before we know the outcome.
Why would Eyman inflate his reported count by about 34,000 signatures when he knew that the SOS would eventually announce the real number? I can only think of two explanations: either he’s a pathological liar or mind-numbingly incompetent.
Hmm. Let’s see. Huh. I guess, when push comes to shove, I’m leaning towards… both.
We all know Eyman’s a liar; there’s no question there. But the very fact that this initiative is even close should be a total embarrassment to a man who has made a career out of the initiative process. And it is doubly humiliating considering the fact that from all reports, Eyman virtually stopped gathering signatures by the first week in June.
All it takes to qualify for the ballot is enough money to buy the signatures, and in sugar-daddy Michael Dunmire, Eyman should have had all the money he needed. Dunmire invested over $300,000 in I-917, and unless there was some kind of late-campaign falling out it makes no sense that he would leave the initiative on the bubble for want of an additional $50,000.
If Eyman knew he hadn’t achieved the 20 percent cushion all campaigns shoot for, it was totally negligent of him not to ask for the money to finish the job right. And if Eyman actually miscounted the signatures — after all the money Dunmire had put into the effort — well that’s simply inexcusable.
If I were Dunmire I’d take my business elsewhere. One way or the other Eyman simply can’t be trusted to do the job, and there are plenty of other high-paid consultants who know how to hire signature gathering firms… not to mention perform simple math.
Oh… and there’s one other twist to this story that could come into play. As Steve Zemke has reported over on Majority Rules, Attorney General Rob McKenna has issued a somewhat twisted opinion that states that a new law that requires a signature gatherer declaration to be printed on the ballot, does not actually require the declaration to be signed. The SOS reports that about 3000 of I-917’s petitions came back without signed declarations — that could account for as many as 60,000 signatures, more than enough to keep I-917 off the ballot if disqualified if a court overules McKenna’s opinion.
Law suit anyone?
“JCH was one of those parasites………”
Commentby Roger Rabbit [RR, I worked in the private sector for clients. NO ONE was forced to work with our firm, or me, unlike dealing with “guvment” hacks like you. Get the difference???????????]
Now wait for the impossibly stupid rigties who can’t seem to get that they’ve hitched their wagons to a foolish liar like Timmy Lieman to defend him. They deserve each other. Timmy is a coward, a punk, a criminal and an asshole. So is anyone who supports him.
I hope this pans out. But I don’t expect I-917 will fail to make the ballot.
Hey Goldy – How ya doin’ on yer first billion savings to The Producers? Tim has already had more real impact on FUWA gummint than you will EVER have.
When you get yer first billion under yer belt, get back to me OK?
Hey Mark the Thieving Redneck,
Have you made good on your bet with Goldy yet? I would really enjoy debating you on global warming, and correct you on your misunderstandinsg of the science that supports global warming. But I expect you to “clear up” your prior obligations first.
Or are you are you are freightened to do so. Are you a fucking freightened little pussey, Thief?
According to Zemke “McKenna’s opinion was in response a request for an opinion by Republican Representative Toby Nixon…”. It would seem like the Democratic Party might want to get involved.
Sam Reed said that the law would be meaningless is signature gatherer didn’t have to sign, but I presume that he will follow the AG’s opinion.
The Downtown Seattle Association has come out against Initiative 917. Any word from them if they will put up a legal challenge?
The Attorney General’s opinion makes sense. Nothing in the new law requires that the signature gatherer declaration be signed or that the petition be rejected because the signature gatherer did not sign the declaration. Nor would the signature gatherer declaration have any legal binding effect on the signature gatherer if it were to be signed falsely. It was just a terribly drafted piece of legislation, to be expected from a Democrat-controlled legislature.
Here is the link to the Attorney General’s opinion:
http://www.atg.wa.gov/opinions/2006/2006_13.htm
By the way, the Attorney General’s opinion is written by Deputy Solicitor General William B. Collins — who held that same position under Democrat AG Christine Gregoire. Collins is a thoroughly qualified professional lawyer, and not some partisan hack. I have to respect Collins’ opinion and advice.
RPope: I just heard the wind leave the moonbat’s sails with that post!
God Job Richard Pope.
I expect some worthless post from the moonbat lawyer Rabbit Pellet!
Let’s see:
1. The Downtown Seattle Association has come out against Initiative 917.
2. Attorney Peter Buck is a member of the Downtown Seattle Association.
3. Attorney Peter Buck represents the Tukwila shopping mall owners (Westfield), who have been subject to vile anti-Semitic slurs by Renton politicians and civic leaders.
4. David Goldstein supports these same Renton politicians and civic leaders.
5. However, David Goldstein also opposes Initiative 917.
Goldy
It is very simple to determine that a politician is lying. If they are using adverbs in their speeches and discussions then they are lying. The truth does not need embellishment.
You used ‘likely’, ‘moderately’, ‘eventually’ ‘mind-numbingly’ ‘doubly’, ‘virtually’, ‘totally’, ‘actually’, and ‘simply’ in your post.
I am not saying you are lying in your post but your emphasis to your readers trying to enforce your opinion on them indicates your major problem.
If you don’t like Eyman and his ideas post the facts as you see them about why you don’t like him; you would be much more believable following this advice.
DJ – Nice try, but the real reason you won’t debate me is because you’re too fucking stoopid and you know I’ll kick your ass and make you look like a fucking idiot.
Nuf said…
Today is a great day in the history of King County. Dean Logan, the incompetent or maybe just stoopid director of king county elections is getting the fuck out of here and taking his incompetence elsewhere.
Now somebody has to come in and clean up the fucking mess he left behind. Maybe we can get somebody who will dump the mail fraud scheme. Maybe we can get somebody who knows about left and right joins of databases. Maybe we can get somebody who understands statistics. Maybe we can get somebody who can mail ballots on time, especially to military voters. Maybe we can get somebody who can make sure the mail bags get delivered to the right place. Maybe we can get somebody who can make sure ballots are handled securely so we don’t end up finding “mystery” ballots. Maybe we can get somebody who doesn’t have a moonbat agenda.
Ya think?
Hey Goldy, since you’re so critical of Eyman, why don’t you try doing something instead of just blabbing all the time.
Why don’t you get out and sponsor some kind of tax increase initiative to fund single mothers, or your daughters hopeless schools, or a welfare fund for retired gummint lawyers who weren’t good enough to make real money, or whatever kook moonbat cause you can think of. And since you hate The Producers so much, why don’t you sponsor an initiative to levy a tax on accumulated wealth? Call it the “Pre Death” tax or some such bullshit. Just help yourself to 10% of the accumulated wealth of anyone who has a net worth of over $100k. ‘Cause those are the “rich” folks right?
Let me know how that goes…
You give anything to have even 1% of the political impact that Eyman has. But you don’t have that impact and you NEVER WILL because you lack the character to do it. You’re just a big blowhard loser.
Could we start a referendum to have people abort their children if there’s evidence that they’ll grow up to be theiving redneck cowardly punk assholes like Mark The Buttwipe Kennedy?
I love when MTR, the guy who said it was OK for Eyeman to lie for his own purposes, lectures on character.
And did you ever have the character to follow the CFC link which proved you wrong?
I signed the thing several times as Mickey Mouse. Hopefully thes will be thrown out with my listed address as Disneyland, USA.
So far there are three attempts to deal with the substance of what Goldy posted” #3, #6, #7, oddly (probably unintentionally) #12, #15, #16, and #17. 40% is probably as good an on topic hit rate these threads are likely to get.
Goldy has consistently said that he thinks the initiative process has been hijacked, and no longer serves the original intent of ending government corruption. Berating him for not furthering that abuse is illogical.
He has also said that all it takes to get an issue on the ballot is enough money to pay for the signatures. Signature gatherers will do whatever they have to for a scrawl on a signature line.
Except for the self-anointed priest of the initiative, who now may come up short with the required number, court case or not.
Why is it that Tim can’t deliver anymore? Could it be that he is single handedly killing the citizen initiative?
Could be.
oh, look, it’s “mark the redneck”
Have you paid up on your bet yet?
It seems like just yesterday you were swaggering like a drunken idiot predicting I-912 was going to pass with mind blowing numbers. You were so confident you staked money on it.
But I-912 failed – thanks to our efforts – and you didn’t pay up. You are a coward. I’d call you a thug, too, but you’re probably too chicken hearted to deserve that.
because you lack the character to do it.
This guy can’t even settle a simple bet. Beneath scum…
Harry: Officially 3, 7, 9, 10 & 13. The others are mostly the standard look and feel of ad hominem attacks from the left against the right.
Hey Puddy Kennedy – Whacha drankin’ this weekend? Hey, ya never told me your recipe for pantydroppers. I’m gonna use Margaritas this weekend with 1820. Those always work.
K 16 – The link you sent was the usual moonbat crap. Nuthin’ there. As usual…
Just post a spreadsheet with your chi squared analysis so I can take a look at it.
Forget about blue Oregon: The Republicans are taking over. The May primary election hit Kevin Looper like a head-butt. Looper, 36, is a genial, grizzly-sized political consultant who moved to Portland six years ago and is now perhaps the state’s top voter-turnout guru. If you want to know how often the average unregistered slacker changes addresses, opens his mail or is likely to be home and lucid enough to sign a voter registration card…
It states that Oregon’s population has risen by 50% since the 70’s, because of immigration from California. Earlier in the article it states that Republican registrations have risen 50% since the seventies (with a decrease in Democrat registrations). Obviously California Republicans are moving out of the lefty paradise and going to the nearest adjacent coast that isn’t Mexican. Wonder why….
Harry @ 18-
Good comment, so here’s my take on it. WHile Goldy has written before on the Populist appeal of the initiative process, the foundation of this nation is that it is a representative government. We elect officials and they represent out interests. When a bunch of them get together, the theory is that they will compromise and arrive at a palitable (not necessarily the best) solution. THere was some fear of tyranny of the majority. The initiative process allows no compromise and plays to the lowest common denominator.
THe biggest problem with “Seattle Process” is the quest for the perfect solution and the unwillingness to compromise.
Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 11
“Nice try, but the real reason you won’t debate me is because you’re too fucking stoopid and you know I’ll kick your ass and make you look like a fucking idiot.”
Ahhhh…as I suspected. You are fucking chicken. Just make good on you bet, Thief, and I promise a real debate. You know, with real evidence, real statistics. Not the bullshit talking points you spew.
And all you have to do is make good on your word….
Sullyguy @ 10,
“If you don’t like Eyman and his ideas post the facts as you see them about why you don’t like him; you would be much more believable following this advice.”
What you fail to appreciate, is that Eyman has not only been demonstrated to be a liar on numerous occasions, but he even admitted he lied when he was stealing money from his grassroots contributors and telling folks he was making no money for his initiative efforts.
You can read Eyman’s confession here (“It was the biggest lie of my life” ). Oh…if you need to hear Tim admit it, listen to this.
Ahhhh…as I suspected. You are fucking chicken. Just make good on you bet, Thief, and I promise a real debate. You know, with real evidence, real statistics. Not the bullshit talking points you spew.
Commentby dj— 7/14/06@ 9:19 pm
Yeah you tell em DJ. Hey if you need to forge anything , you know to obtain that “real evidence”(wink,wink),I am free. You bring the donk out in me. You have gravitas. Courage DJ, courage.
Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 12
“Maybe we can get somebody who understands statistics.”
(*snicker*)
Yeah…like you would even know anything about that.
Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 23
“Just post a spreadsheet with your chi squared analysis so I can take a look at it.”
Ummm…I hate to shake your already shakey wingnut word, Thief, but a chi-squared analysis is a completely inappropriate analysis for a temperature time series.
Gwad, are you a fucking dolt!
30, Goldy, Rather than whining and bitching like a girl, here’s your chance to finally wear a uniform! Unlike you, those IDF soldiers and sailiors are not pussies. Think about it.
Goldy, Do what you really want to do! Sue the terrorists! Throw legal papers at them!! Tell Hizbollah that you will kick their ass………….in court!!! hehe, JCH Kennedy
Goldy, Be sure to let Hizbollah know how much you hate Bush!! They’ll love you for that!!!!!!! hehe, JCH
Goldy, Tell Hizbollah that you are NOT a pussy. Let them know you will write a mean article about them!!!
Mark the Thieving Redneck @ 23
By the way, you don’t qualify as a fucking dolt simply because you don’t know how to properly analyze a time series. Lot’s of people don’t know how to do so. Rather, you are a fucking dolt because you think you know how to analyze the data, but you don’t.
You took an undergrad statistics course, you remember the name of one particular analysis from the course, and now you try to bullshit people with it. Sorry, chump…you don’t know what you are talking about.
I know you are all on a tangent now, but what is wrong with $30 tabs? I have an Acura MDX and paid a big price in sales taxes. I also own a 92 accord. I paid sales taxes there too. Why should I have to keep paying hundreds of dollars to license these vehicles every year? What purpose does this serve? Are our roads being fixed with the money? NO! So what is being done with the money? Because of the Monrail, hell I paid $485 in tabs….for what? Now you want more? NO! All cars do the same damage to the roads (btw – why don’t most of you push to not have studded tires? it is the worst thing to do for our roads and isn’t even needed.) Also, that might not be true….have you seen the crap an old VW bug or bus spews out and I’m not talking about the smoke from a blunt.
I’m for $30 tabs and for keeping government out of our pockets. Our society is better off with less gov programs and taxes. Less spending too, but that’s another topic.
OK, back to your tangent…..
MTR @ 23- That usual “moombat crap” was the EPA’s web site. You know the agency run by a republican appointee.
Does telling lies ever get tiresome for you?
And I don’t need a chi square to tell me that there won’t be elevated skin cancer in Antartica. You never responded to that either.
25.
My understanding of the initiaive process comes from California history I studied as a kid. It’s was about the same is all the Western states.
And speaking of lies, how about a third try for a response from REP Pat:
(from yesterday)
Please reconcile:
In his syndicated column being published Wednesday, the journalist, Robert D. Novak, confirms that two of his sources were Karl Rove, the senior White House adviser, and Bill Harlow, then a spokesman for the Central Intelligence Agency, both of whose roles in the case are already widely known. Mr. Novak does not disclose his primary source, saying this official has not come forward publicly.
with your post:
Tuesday, July 11, 2006
Novak Learned About Plame From … Joe Wilson
‘I learned Valerie Plame’s name from Joe Wilson’s entry in ‘Who’s Who in America’…
Those tiny popping sounds you hear are HORSESASS.ORG dumb ass Democrat libs heads exploding.
Commentby REP Pat Kennedy [D-Bitchslap the Black Security Guard At LAX]— 7/11/06@ 4:14 pm
Is your head popping?
Commentby K— 7/13/06@ 6:22 pm
Goldy, Perhaps if you were a lawyer you could file lots of lawsuits against Hizbollah. You could march in a courtroom and be the man!!! [Note the real men in the IDF aren’t writing deposition questions tonight.]
Harry- I do think that paid signature gathering has distorted the process, along with the lies that are told. THe estate tax is csae in point. The problem as sold, the state will tax you when you die, would likely apply to very few of the folks shopping at Target where I saw them.
I say we should have collection box stationed outside all the liberal hangouts for those who want to pay more taxes. Then we should count all the donations every time a liberal whines about a lack of tax revenue. hehe
18
Goldy has consistently said that he thinks the initiative process has been hijacked, and no longer serves the original intent of ending government corruption. Berating him for not furthering that abuse is illogical.
Quick question – so is the purpose of the initiative process to end government corrution or to allow the people to have say in how they thing they should be governed? The problem with many of the iniatives in past that have made it to the ballot are they are circumvented within a matter of years.
No he is just a normal Republican
This thread suffers severe “trollitis”. Perhaps the cause is the extreme likelihood that I-917 will go down through typical Republican bungling, like their conduct of the gubernatorial ballot challenge.
The shriller the trolls shriek, the more it sounds like “their butts are on fire and their heads are catching.”
Trollitis, indeed. MTR continues to laugh his ass off while dishing out more chi squared crap. Another Kennedy (Proud?) continues to dress up as Dan Rather in drag. JCH continues to grace us with more mindless carpet bombing.
Despite them all, there’s an interesting discussion here about the initiative process. If Hiriam were alive today I wonder if he would get impatient with piecemeal reforms such as banning paid signature gatherers . . . and yet even that step may be politically out of reach in the short run.
I enjoy Goldy’s taunts against Eyeman, but hope that he doesn’t bloody up the guy too much. We don’t want the Republicans to find a better front man for their initiative gambits. Let Eyeman die a slow, agonizing political death!
I hope that I-917 goes down to a stinging defeat, but would also take nothing for granted. The issues involved are just too important, both within Washington and nationally.
You’re right, Green Thumb. It has been an interesting discussion and thanks for letting me lurk. I’m learning to scroll past the trolls without so much annoyance.
I have a personal belief (based on nothing) that Eyman is losing interest in this political game anyway. He’s getting sloppy and sort of comical.
Let me explain that comment “based on nothing.” Of course, based on my observations of him but not based on anything more substantial than that.
Skagit @ 48
“I have a personal belief (based on nothing) that Eyman is losing interest in this political game anyway. He’s getting sloppy and sort of comical.”
…but he is building an absolutely fabulous costume collection!
7, 8
Because the initiative is created by the state constitution, specifically Wash. Const. Art. II, Sec. 1, this is the first place to look in deciding under what circumstances petitions can be rejected. http://www.courts.wa.gov/educa.....Article-02
The relevent phrase says, “This Section is self-executing, but legislation may be enacted especially to facilitate its operation.” On its face, this appears to mean the Legislature can’t impose additional requirements on initiative petitions beyond those stated in Art. II, Sec. 1.
However, early on, the state supreme court interpreted the term “facilitate” to include legislation “to fairly guard against fraud and mistake.” Whether the Legislature has power to authorize the Secretary of State to reject petitions not bearing a certification or signature by the signature gatherer is, I think, a stretch but Collins seems to think it can, and addresses the qauestion in terms of whether it did.
I agree with Richard Pope that Laws of 2005, ch. 239, is poorly drafted and with AAG Collins that it is ambiguous. It is important to remember that power to ascertain the meaning of ambiguous legislation is vested in the courts, not the attorney general, so it is only advisory; in addition, the opinion was requested by a legislator, not the secretary of state, so the AG Opinion isn’t even legal advice to the state official responsible for accepting initiative petitions.
A couple things in the AG Opinion trouble me. Like Collins, I think the fact the original bill was changed by legislative compromise is highly significant, and the Legislature’s deletion of the signature requirement contained in the original bill may have been intentional. However, as Collins acknowledges, this interpretation renders language that did make it into the enacted law superfluous or nearly so, thus this interpretation violates the rule of construction that “drafters of legislation are presumed to have used no superfluous words.” Collins tries to get around this by characterizing the words in question as “language of slight significance.” To me, this seems an attempt to rationalize away a defect of his analysis. Secondly, his conclusion that the declaration is merely a “warning” to signature gatherers seems weak, given the actual wording of the declaration — it does look an awful like a declaration from which the signature line was inadvertently omitted.
The bottom line is, the courts could jump either way, but I don’t think they will accept Collins’ argument that the declaration added by Laws of 2005, ch. 239, is a “warning.” That, as Goldy says, is a “twisted” (judges and lawyers prefer the term “tortured”) reading of the law. Too tortured, in my opinion. I think the state supreme court will say the obvious: The Legislature failed to require signature gatherers to sign initiative petitions, so there is no such requirement in our state. And, as the new language required by the amended law is not a “warning” but an incomplete declaration that serves no useful purpose, I think the justices also will say the SOS can’t reject petitions that don’t have this language printed on them.
512
clarification: “it is only advisory” should read “the AG Opinion is only advisory”
11
What is fucking stoopid and makes you look like a fucking idiot is …
(a) betting I-912 would pass by 15%
(b) failing to pay off the bet after I-912 LOST at the polls.
12
To paraphrase sillyguy, if you don’t like Logan post the facts as you see them about why you don’t like him; you would be much more believable.
I don’t recall that you’ve EVER provided us with any FACTS to justify your animosity to Logan. However, even if Logan is what you say he is, at a minimum you are a hypocrite, because you seem to be just fine with how Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell run elections.
13
“Hey Goldy, since you’re so critical of Eyman, why don’t you try doing something instead of just blabbing all the time.” Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy— 7/14/06@ 7:19 pm
If Goldy was Ann Coulter, he’d suggest that somebody KILL Eyman, but he’s not and he hasn’t. That approach is favored exclusively by Republicans, who excel in pandering to savages and have cornered the bloodthirsty vote. If you don’t like Goldy’s approach of verbally dismembering Eyman, then your suggestion is — ?
14
“Could we start a referendum to have people abort their children if there’s evidence that they’ll grow up to be theiving redneck cowardly punk assholes like Mark The Buttwipe Kennedy?” Commentby LeftTurn— 7/14/06@ 7:43 pm
What do we need a referendum for? Just throw ’em to the ground and stomp on their stomachs.
56
Just kidding, har-de-har!! Hey, if Coulter can say shit like that, why can’t I? Why should she have a monopoly on bad jokes? Republicans want a monopoly on every fucking thing, including voting machines.
18
Maybe the Legislature should outlaw paid signature gathering. Certainly, paying gatherers based on how many signatures they collect should be prohibited, as this practice encourages fraud — as we saw from the lies told to potential signers by gatherers seeking signatures for the estate tax repeal initiative.
In addition, I think if it is shown that gatherers lied about the initiative — as in the case of the estate tax initiative — then the courts should throw out the petitions on the grounds that the signatures were obtained by fraud, and therefore the signatures are invalid.
22
“Hey Puddy Kennedy – Whacha drankin’ this weekend? Hey, ya never told me your recipe for pantydroppers. I’m gonna use Margaritas this weekend with 1820. Those always work.” Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy— 7/14/06@ 8:45 pm
Trying to spend another FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS?
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Everything that’s wrong with MTR — and there’s a LOT wrong with MTR — can be summed up in this one phrase:
It’s been a long time since he’s been laid.
44
“Quick question – so is the purpose of the initiative process to end government corrution or to allow the people to have say in how they thing they should be governed? The problem with many of the iniatives in past that have made it to the ballot are they are circumvented within a matter of years.” Commentby sillyguy— 7/14/06@ 11:12 pm
The answer to this is no mystery — if an initiative passes, the Legislature can’t touch it for two years, then has a free hand to amend or repeal it. If they do, the citizens’ remedy is to vote them out of office.
What this adds up to, sillyguy, is that the Legislature had every right to decide I-601 has outlived its usefulness; and if the voters return those legislators to office, they ratify the Legislature’s actions by doing so.
Finally, I’ll conclude tonight by observing that the more things change, the more they stay the same — at least when the GOP Culture of Corruption is involved.
“(July 15) – Representative John A. Boehner won the job of House majority leader amid a post-Abramoff clamor for an overhaul of lobbying and ethics rules. But nearly six months later, the changes are still tied up in Congress.
“And far from trying to put the brakes on lobbyists and the money they channel into Republican coffers, Mr. Boehner, who has portrayed his ties to Washington lobbyists as something to be proud of, has stepped on the gas. He has been holding fund-raisers at lobbyists’ offices, flying to political events on corporate planes and staying at a golf resort with a business group that has a direct stake in issues before Congress.”
http://articles.news.aol.com/n.....2809990006
And do-nothing Congressman Doc Hastings is still chairing the House Ethics Committee, and the HEC is still doing nothing.
Any questions?
As you know, I work the night shift, and it’s past 1:30 AM — so it’s time for me to hop up the hill to Keystone Place and munch on Stefan’s garden and shit on his lawn.
I’ll see you unpatriotic America-hating trollfuck traitors who are too fucking cheap to save a soldier’s life by donating $99 to Operation Helmet (http://www.operation-helmet.org/ ) again tomorrow.
Uh-oh — before I leave, there’s BREAKING NEWS —
“The government reported Friday that the average temperature for the 48 contiguous United States from January through June was 51.8 degrees Fahrenheit, or 3.4 degrees above average for the 20th century. That made it the warmest such period since recordkeeping began in 1895, the National Climatic Data Center reported.” http://articles.news.aol.com/n.....3?cid=2194
Sleep on that, science-hating ignoramuses! Buh-bye for now, traitors.
Hey RR doesn’t Legislative intent enter into this discussion? Aren’t judges supposed to interpret laws based on what they think the Legislature intended? It’s clear here that the Legislature wanted to curb the way Lieman’s SS troops gathered signatures in the past, i.e., by hook or by crook. Shouldn’t that get some consideration?
In any event, the court can take “judicial notice” of the fact that Tim’s last name has officially been changed to “Lieman” and just vote for the good guys.
MTR’s sister goes to jail!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....her15.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ent15.html
Largent’s dad is a rethug. Now we see how you righties end up in this cycle of child rape. It’s a GOP thing!
Well maybe if these blow hard powers-that-be in Olympia heeded the will of the people for once, we wouldn’t have to have multiple intiatives time and time again that always overwhelmingly pass every time to make them listen. That, and sneaking fees on the backside dosen’t work either. Thirty means thirty, not forty-three. ‘Nuff said. Go Timmy go!
Maybe the Legislature should outlaw paid signature gathering. Certainly, paying gatherers based on how many signatures they collect should be prohibited, as this practice encourages fraud – as we saw from the lies told to potential signers by gatherers seeking signatures for the estate tax repeal initiative.
In addition, I think if it is shown that gatherers lied about the initiative – as in the case of the estate tax initiative – then the courts should throw out the petitions on the grounds that the signatures were obtained by fraud, and therefore the signatures are invalid.
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 7/15/06@ 1:28 am
Both of these have already been tried.
Courts have struck down laws which prohibited paid signature gathering, since these violate freedom of speech under the first amendment.
Courts have also struck down attempts to penalize people who lied about ballot measures, since this also violated freedom of speech under the first amendment.
Roger Rabbit must have gotten his law degree from a correspondence school.
Nothing could be funnier than wannabe lawyer Pope-A-Dope attacking the quality of legal advice given by anyone.
Iraq has oil and owes the American tax payers billions for the cost of the war. In addition, Iran is next. “Unleash The Hounds!”, and the Iranian oil is ours. All of it.
43
“I say we should have collection box stationed outside all the liberal hangouts for those who want to pay more taxes. Then we should count all the donations every time a liberal whines about a lack of tax revenue. hehe” Commentby Dan -Whats the frequency-Kennedy— 7/14/06@ 11:02 pm
And I say we should deny the use of public roads, schools, lands and recreation areas, access to the courts, fire and police services, and defense by the military to rightwing FREELOADERS who refuse to pay their fair share of the costs of government.
48
“I have a personal belief (based on nothing) that Eyman is losing interest in this political game anyway. He’s getting sloppy and sort of comical.” Commentby Skagit— 7/15/06@ 12:21 am
He will completely lose interest the moment it’s no longer a money-maker for him.
67
“Hey RR doesn’t Legislative intent enter into this discussion? Aren’t judges supposed to interpret laws based on what they think the Legislature intended?” Commentby LeftTurn— 7/15/06@ 6:56 am
Yes, and yes, buuuut … “legislative intent” is a slippery critter, in no small part because there’s not one legislator but 147 legislators, and it’s not only possible but almost a certainty there were many differing legislator intents behind every passed bill.
The courts have developed a protocol for determining legislative intent for the purpose of interpreting poorly drafted and/or ambiguous legislation. You must understand that even if we could know with moral certainty that the Legislature meant Interpretation A, if the legal process produces Interpretation B, then B it is — and this is true no matter what individual legislators (who are never invited to testify about the meaning of the legislation they pass) say about it.
In arriving at their sage decisions, the seers on the exalted benches of the land resort to several strategic fictions, which often truly are fiction in the vernacular sense of the term:
1) There is a presumption, almost always false, that the Legislature was of one mind and the bill as passed reflects a unitary understanding among legislators of what they were passing (the truth is, ambiguous legislation almost always results from lack of agreement and the tortured redrafting that flows from attempting to make a majority of voting legislators happy);
2) There is a presumption, usually false, that the legislators knew what they were doing when they voted for the bill that passed (the truth is, a lot of legislation isn’t even read by the legislators who voted for it, as Michael Moore demonstrated in “Fahrenheit 911” — remember the sound truck sequence?);
3) There is a presumption, often false, that legislators are familiar with both (a) the previously enacted body of legislation on the same topic, and (b) the body of court decisions interpreting said legislation, and legislation in general (the truth is, most legislators weren’t around 15 years ago, none were around 50 years ago, and at last count only 4 of the 147 legislators were lawyers, and there is no substantive evidence that any of those had actually read the bills they were voting on or were actually aware of either the prior legislative history or the court decisions on the same topic);
4) There is a presumption that the politicians comprising legislative bodies never use surplus language (which, of course, defies the common experience of all mankind ever since politics was invented);
5) There is a presumption that legislators intend the conventional meanings of the language they used (the truth is, many bills are drafted by staff; and, as their language becomes increasingly tortured through the process of redrafting and legislative compromise, the entire object of redrafting is to produce language that mean many things and nothing all at once, so as to secure its passage; and, courts always give preference to interpreting common words according to their meaning as legal terms of art over their vernacular meanings, which are invariably drastically different; and, last by not least, given the general state of literacy in our country today, it’s questionable whether anyone — either elected officials or the voters who elect them — have the slightest clue what ordinary words like “no” and “hell no” mean);
6) There are also a number of minor presumptions, which have little to do with anything, that find their way into the mechanisms of statutory construction.
The foregoing doesn’t mean that legislation means whatever judges want it to mean. That assuredly is not the case. Rather, the reality is that whatever legislative bodies enact, will be interpreted according to the conventional judicial methods of interpretation, regardless of what the legislators’ actual intent was. In other words, there is an established method of judicially interpreting the work product of legislative bodies that adheres to consistent rules which are applied unvaryingly over time and across partisan boundaries, which sloppy legislative bodies ignore at their peril.
67
“It’s clear here that the Legislature wanted to curb the way Lieman’s SS troops gathered signatures in the past, i.e., by hook or by crook. Shouldn’t that get some consideration?”
No, because courts don’t personalize things that way.
“In any event, the court can take ‘judicial notice’ of the fact that Tim’s last name has officially been changed to ‘Lieman’ and just vote for the good guys.” Commentby LeftTurn— 7/15/06@ 6:56 am
Technically, it can’t because “judicial notice” is defined by statute and case law to include only matters of official record; and as a practical matter, it won’t anyway, because courts don’t personalize things that way.
Who are you and what have you done with Roger Rabbit?
As long as we have the right kind of judges interpreting what legistlative intent is then we have no problems.
Addendum to 77
One of the most frustrating features of our legal system, to those forced to participate in it as litigants or witnesses, is the way it depersonalizes issues. In most cases, those caught up in litigation are emotionally involved, and often the litigation is intensely important to them — it may literally make or break someone’s finances or career, or put them behind bars for a long time. Yet, the legal system assiduously avoids acknowledging their humanity. The omission is intentional and necessary; it is created by legal training, enforced by the conventions and protocols of the legal and judicial professions, and is necessary in order to maintain the impartiality and dispassionate conjoining of factual and legal analysis to assure consistent and fair results — i.e., the notion that the outcome of a case should depend on what the facts and law are, not who the parties are. But the participants frequently come away from the process feeling they were mere inanimate objects of curiosity by learned mystics having nothing better to do than engage in prolonged and obtuse discourse in some indeciperable language before decreeing their respective facts in a manner that often seems arbitrary and almost always is unsatisfying.
80
That’s why most people prefer to settle out of court.
I am glad to see that Isreal will have some peace shortly. I know it will be short lived but if it can kill a couple thousand Hezbollah things should quiet down for a couple years. Isreal will never have peace until their enemies are wiped out.
71
Ever hear of constitutional amendment, Richard? (No, I don’t mean sillyguy’s silly proposal to require revotes of disputed elections — see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....hopter.JPG )
And, short of an outright ban on paid signature gathering, why couldn’t the legislature REGULATE the manner of payment (i.e., require payment by the hour, and disallow payment-per-signature) as a necessary measure to prevent fraud? How does such a regulation infringe on free speech?
71
“Roger Rabbit must have gotten his law degree from a correspondence school.” Commentby Richard Pope— 7/15/06@ 9:30 am
You’re wrong about lots of things, Richard, and you’re wrong about this as well. My law degree is from the University of Washington, and I was one of 140 successful applicants out of a pool of more than 2,200 applications. In addition, I passed the bar exam on my first try (as a brother member of the bar, I presume you did too, unless you tell me differently).
Any questions?
BREAKING NEWS — Public Schools Are as Good or Better than Private Schools
Yesterday was Friday afternoon on a summer day, so you KNOW some big news was bound to be quietly announced in late afternoon by an administration that desperately hoped nobody would notice it.
The gist: The government commissioned Educational Testing Service (the SAT folks) to study the quality of public vs. private schools, and their report says PUBLIC schools equaled or outscored private schools in a sampling of reading and math achievement at the fourth and eighth grade levels; and, in addition, that private Christian schools produce inferior educational results.
“WASHINGTON, July 14 — The Education Department reported on Friday that children in public schools generally performed as well or better in reading and mathematics than comparable children in private schools. The exception was in eighth-grade reading, where the private school counterparts fared better.
“The report, which compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores in 2003 from nearly 7,000 public schools and more than 530 private schools, also found that conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind public schools on eighth-grade math.
“The study, carrying the imprimatur of the National Center for Education Statistics, part of the Education Department, was contracted to the Educational Testing Service and delivered to the department last year.
“It went through a lengthy peer review ….
Its release, on a summer Friday, was made with without a news conference or comment from Education Secretary Margaret Spellings. Reg Weaver, president of the National Education Association, the union for millions of teachers, said the findings showed that public schools were ‘doing an outstanding job’ and that if the results had been favorable to private schools, ‘there would have been press conferences and glowing statements about private schools.’
“’The administration has been giving public schools a beating since the beginning’ to advance its political agenda, Mr. Weaver said, of promoting charter schools and taxpayer-financed vouchers for private schools as alternatives to failing traditional public schools.
“A spokesman for the Education Department, Chad Colby, offered no praise for public schools and said he did not expect the findings to influence policy. Mr. Colby emphasized …, ‘An overall comparison of the two types of schools is of modest utility.’ …
“The report mirrors and expands on similar findings this year by Christopher and Sarah Theule Lubienski, a husband-and-wife team at the University of Illinois ….
“The study, along with one of charter schools, was commissioned by the former head of the national Center for Education Statistics, Robert Lerner, an appointee of President Bush, at a time preliminary data suggested that charter schools, which are given public money but are run by private groups, fared no better at educating children than traditional public schools. …
“In eighth-grade math, children … in conservative Christian schools fared worse. …”
Excerpts from this article are quoted here under the Fair Use Doctrine. For complete story and/or copyright info, see http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....artner=AOL
So there you have it — the Bushies spent taxpayer money on a study they hoped would bolster their agenda of privatizing education, and it bit them in the ass! Now they’re trying to sweep their own study under the rug.
Roger, Richard Pope is also,it seems, claiming a greater diversity of educational attainments than your esteemed self. It appears that he is attempting to function in the capacity of a Rebbe. Of course, I expect the announcement of his appointment at a local shule momentarily. Since the departure of Rebbe Lapin, we have been in sore need of someone of his moral stature.
BREAKING NEWS – Public Schools Are as Good or Better than Private
Commentby Roger Rabbit [………………………………………………………..This is why the Clintons sent their only daughter to public schools!!!! ……………………………………………………………………………………………………….. Oh, wait. Never mind. Rossana Rosanandana [SNL]
85
Meanwhile at the bat cave called Seattle 1/3 of families forgo free public education and opt for private schools. Atlas has shrugged.
The 2/3 of families want to send their kids to private schools but the Seattle liberals take to much of their income.
Hey the Seattle public schools are good if you want your child to get raped.
It takes a Largent to do that Rufus. It’s a family values kind of thing.
Actually Largent wouldnt be in trouble if it was a 2nd grader and he was a public school teacher. Of course his union dues would have to current. Hehe
It is called public education. hehe
Rufus, Steve Largent’s son, Kramer, stands indicted for strong child rape. I assume his education was along the finest guidelines of Republican, Christo-fascist guidelines.
Rabbit 84 – Yeah, I have a question. How come you settled for the low expectations and guaranteed job security of gummint job instead of making big money like a real lawyer? So you could serve humanity?
Damn LEftTurdy Boy, you don’t know politics. NEA members are of the moonbat cabal!
MTR’s sister goes to jail!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....her15.html
Commentby LeftTurn— 7/15/06@ 7:02 am
Try again. Take a shit first. Scoop up some of your brown brain matter from the swirly bowl and put it back into your head!
Nothing could be funnier than wannabe lawyer Pope-A-Dope attacking the quality of legal advice given by anyone.
Commentby LeftTurn— 7/15/06@ 9:52 am
Only moonbats such as dj or greenthumbuphisass take your shitty advice leftturdy!
You’re wrong about lots of things, Richard, and you’re wrong about this as well. My law degree is from the University of Washington, and I was one of 140 successful applicants out of a pool of more than 2,200 applications. In addition, I passed the bar exam on my first try (as a brother member of the bar, I presume you did too, unless you tell me differently).
Any questions?
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 7/15/06@ 11:18 am
When did rabbits take the bar? ummm, something is wrong here. First he’s a lawyer, then he’s a rabbit. I see schizophrenia in his present.
Hey Puddy – Whoja fuck last night. Didja kill her?
-Hey Puddy Kennedy – Whacha drankin’ this weekend? Hey, ya never told me your recipe for pantydroppers. I’m gonna use Margaritas this weekend with 1820. Those always work.
Commentby Mark The Redneck Kennedy-
Heh heh. MTRKennedy has to use booze to get his wife to sleep with him. No wonder he is always so adament about supporting Limbaugh through his three marriages. Pretty dang funny!
Libneck – You don’t understand. I’m a Kennedy. The rules that apply to you sub classes don’t apply to me. I just like to fuck hot young women. I don’t care who or how. Just as long as they bend over for me. So I prepare drinks called “pantydroppers” to get what I want. I could buy it of course, but it’s more fun to get it for free. Actually, pantydropper recipes are something of an art and science. Kinda fun to see what works and how well.
@64 Roger Rodent:
Be honest, we all know you don’t work. Just a guv’t cheese recipient. At least have a sliver of candor….
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