Perhaps, instead of incessantly railing against building light rail here in Seattle, Crosscut contributor Ted Van Dyk might want to take some time to explore the extraordinary success of light rail in his native Phoenix. I’m just sayin’.
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Totally different. It’s very hot in Phoenix.
Extraordinary success? It reiterates the common refrain of transit systems everywhere….IT’S HUGELY SUBSIDIZED!
To me and many other folks successful transit systems are ones that pay their own way. Even after you factor in quality of life issues associated with metro living and social service qualities of transit….Phoenix isn’t close to being successful.
Hmmmmmm, Matty sounds like a motorist who drives everywhere for every trip and ignores the fact that the universal road network and parking supply that we have is heavily subsidized.
It’s worth commenting that public roadways are ‘HUGELY SUBSIDIZED’, too – via regular taxes on licenses and fuel – to name a couple. So I’m not sure that ‘subsidized’ is really much of an argument against light rail. Personally, I’d prefer the monorail system which was approved by voters multiple times and failed only when the opposition conflated long-term interest costs with initial costs of construction – a successful strategy which would have easily defeated light rail as well.
Ted VD is an amazing piece or editorial antiquity. Kudoes to CC for preserving this relic.
Has anyone ever calculated how much money Seattle has pissed away in the planning/endless discussions about light rail?
Seriously, how much has already been squandered??
Have any of you Leftist Pinheaded Klowns ever studied this guy??
The Austrian School is that branch of economics that stoutly maintains that there really, really, really ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. You KLOWNS seem to struggle with a….blank check, endless credit card mentality. That’s why I call you PINHEADS!
You simply cannot get beyond emotion and feelings in your decision-making.
Planners…screw ’em.
Most simply want to force their ideas on the rest of us. No thanks.
I don’t need some idiot who cannot even build a doghouse to regulate away my property rights and piss away tax dollars on endless planning.
Seattle is the ANAL CANAL OF THE UNIVERSE.
May you all suffocate up each others asses.
Greg Thomsen @4, there’s no legit comparison between Seattle monorail program and Sound Transit light rail. The former was being funded by junk bonds, thus the high interest rates and sky-high interest costs over the life of the bonds. Sound Transit has a first-class bond rating and pays much less in interest on its bonds. Monorail failed in Seattle when city voters said NO to junk bonds.
David, you seem obsessed with Ted Van Dyk.
Ted V.D. is someone who never had as important or interesting a job as when he worked for Hubert Humphrey 45 years ago. Thus his regular (painfully regular…) name-dropping from that era.
Sad, really
@3 & 4,
Agreed it is subsidized, but not NEARLY to the same level per user capita as light rail. $1.4B for 33,000 riders makes calculators do spit takes.
Light rail works in highly dense areas like Mahattan. Seattle, Phoenix, and others…..they’re called white elephants. ;)
@6
Hey right-wing nutcase! You do realize things like police, fire protection, sewer systems, and roads need planning too, right?
You also realize that if you let anyone build anything they want anywhere they want it can overwhelm the ability of government to provide those services most of us think of as being essential. At the very least allowing unchecked development with no impact fees tends to transfer costs from developers on to the taxpayers at large.
@10
Since you like to spew numbers, remind me…
How much does a lane of freeway cost per mile?
How much is the Viaduct replacement costing?
What’s the estimated cost of the new I-5 Columbia River bridge?
@12
Lets not forget the 520 replacement particularly if the neighborhood gets its way and gets a tunnel under Montlake cut to move the interchange to Pacific.
@12 I don’t have the time to entertain you….try Googling it yourself. Many sources demonstrate various freeways are far more cost effective than light rail.
One comparison I found in the very Phoenix mentioned is:
High Occupancy Vehicle Lane $0.026 to $0.057 per person-mile
Light rail: $0.161 to $0.358 per person-mile
That’s close to apples to apples. Light rail is always more expensive and less cost-benefit than proponents like to think.
You want to try and compare your Seattle tarbaby orange called the viaduct? Sorry, homie don’t play that mess. You all should fix what’s 90% your own mess.
And interstate travel of the I-5 bridge compared to urban commuting? That’s a frickin’ kiwi!
Hey cynical:
we don’t have a free market in children, or wives, at least not any more. Nor in slaves. Nor in roads. Nor in schools, you have to pay taxes for that. Nor in money, sewage systems, electric systems, cops, defense, courts, enforcement of contracts, and the economic free market rests on bankruptcy laws where in the end a judge decides business strategy for a banktrupt business. We don’t have a free market in labor and industries insurance or in mandatory auto liability insurance. We make those god dammed greedy trial lawyers work for medicare FOR FREE WITHOUT THEIR FREE MARKET CONSENT you know, thru the medicare lien laws. We see in Europe…in Austria in fact…socialized medicince and socialized commynist trains sytems that work just great.
If you want a free market in children, where you can sell yours to the highest bidder, or in wives, or as to education and cops and defense, or these other things, then say so you dimwit. The free market does not answer many problems. As you admit because in fact you DON’T WANT A FREE MARKET in somany things, you’re just too ignorant and stupid to admit it.
You also are too ignorant and stupid to realize the free market by itself is prone to crashes as in the depression and as we just averted recently. There is NO FREE MARKET IN BANKING, INSURANCE AND FINANCE and if you are advocating that you’re a complete imbecile whose policies would, if enacted, lead to mass misery, econonomic disaster, and the end of capitalism as we know it. Truly stupid on a world historic level, you are. And in that mix you can add health care and rapid transit. The ENTIRE rest of the world knows this shit works great, but you personally are so stupid and ignorant you try to “prove” it doesn’t by spouting free market rhetoric devoid of any argumentative content. In fact you often rant and rave without making anything that could be viewed as an argument whatsoever; devoid of facts, logic and rationality.
In this case you have the false delusion that autos are free when we spend money on roads, cops, pollution clean up, we put part of our mortgage to garage costs of storage, we spend billions at every mall requiring private landowners to subsidize auto travel thru forced requirements to provide parking, NOT thru a free market, we require mandatory auto insurance NOT A FREE MARKET we have our courts handling auto cases it’s about 15% of what they do NOT A FREE MARKET and there are massive other subsidies as well and you are so stupid and ignorant you just ignore all that. Then you get in a subsidized airport and take a plane ride a subsidized road in a car then when you are in DC NY or London or Paris or Rome or Moscow or Mexico City you like all conservaitve idiots ride the MASS TRANSIT COMMUNIST TRAINS ALL OVER AND LOVE THEM.
Then you come home an spew your nonsense all over the internet.
You’re a moral and intellectual baby, having a tantrum.
15. you will be told the truth spews:
That’s a whole lot of words to say the obvious…that you are a Kommie and I should hold on to my wallet.
Methinks the excreble Mr. Cynical would do well to hold on to his posterior as that’s clearly where his brains are located.
Need we also point out that the original Intercontinental Railroad was heavily subsidized, with the federal government granting imminent domain rights to the railroad and large swaths of national land which the railroads could develop and sell for themselves? Of course, it had a larger national purpose – binding the two coasts together and accellerating the settlement of the interior (to the detriment of the Native Americans).
@17
are you sure Cynical could find it even with both hands and a map?
He may be able to see it if and/or when his head pops out.
Hey Goldy, I learned a new trick. Bypass NY Times registration by using Google. Thusly:
In Phoenix, Weekend Users Make Light Rail a Success
Does require an extra click, though. Because nytimes.com looks at the “referrer” in the HTTP header.
Mr. Cynical @ 6
What does the Austrian School say about freeloaders?
We just need to figure out how to get all those trucks replaced with freight pulling bicycles and loading packages into busses.
I’ll bet Phoenix’s light rail didn’t cost the $500 million a mile that Seattle taxpayers will pay for the U.W. – Northgate link. In fact, I know it didn’t. According to Wikipedia, Phoenix’s light rail cost $70 million a mile — about 40% of the $178 million a mile we paid for Phase I.
@24
Downtown-UW-Northgate link will carry 100,000 riders per day when it is done.
Sure it is expensive, but digging holes in the ground tends to be (I’d think a rabbit would know about that). Unfortunately given some hills, a water crossing, and passing through very built-up neighborhoods it really can’t be helped.
Yes we like our light rail in Phoenix, AZ!