This story is just appalling:
Questions about entrapment have dogged counter-terrorism cases for some time, most recently in the case of the Oregon man charged with trying to blow up a Christmas-tree lighting ceremony. Now, from The Washington Post, comes the story of Craig Monteilh, a self-proclaimed FBI informant who was so aggressive in his quest to find potential terrorists at a California mosque that the community got a restraining order against him.
Unless there’s a known group of aspiring terrorists to infiltrate, fishing expeditions like this are pointless exercises in entrapment. They never catch the kinds of highly motivated terrorists who plan and execute dangerous attacks. They merely target easily-led individuals who are susceptible to this type of coercion, of which there are inexhaustible supplies of – in every race, religion, and nationality.
I think I’ve pointed this out before at this site, but a charismatic undercover FBI agent could easily walk into any number of Christian churches in this country and find a poor sap or two to go along with his imaginary plot to blow up a Planned Parenthood office. That would do nothing to make us safer. The same holds true for our local mosques.
Let the Republicans in, and they set up police state apparatus. Let the Democrats in, and they continue to use the police state apparatus the Republicans set up for them. Republicans = fascism. Democrats = fascism with health care.
Eventually the paranoid will get what is coming to them: people following them beyond the limits of the law.
@1
So very true…
I think the FBI’s resources would be better directed by infiltrating Tea Party groups. Those groups are full of potential domestic terrorists.
It’s a fine line. There’s “working with” someone who’s actively wanting to do harm (terrorism) and then there’s creating a fake terrorist by finding a drunk or mentally deranged person and CREATING the entire scenario for them…for a person that could/would never have the mental fortitude, desire or will to actually do something like this.
I mean you could do the same with with 3% of the south, convince them to stop the evil march of the “blacks” and work them up into some crazy plan of action, as long as YOU invent it, you plan it, and you just have to convince them to go along.
This “kid” seemed a BIT more like the former. He did have several opportunities to back out. He could have walked away several times. Entrapment? Perhaps legally, but no question this kid was mentally unstable and crazy violent. BOTTOM line, all arguments aside, he THOUGHT that we was pushing a button that would murder hundreds of random innocent people, and he was OK with it, and tried several times (moving position to get a “better” signal). This guy needs to go away forever and ever at MINIMUM, and never see the light of day again.
As for the crazy self described “FBI informant” that needed a restraining order against him, he’s just random crazy. He just wants to be a big fish or impress someone and he’s just an idiot.
Hey Lee
Care to name a couple of the churches that you refer to in the following quote?
a “charismatic undercover FBI agent could easily walk into any number of Christian churches in this country and find a poor sap or two to go along with his imaginary plot to blow up a Planned Parenthood office.”
or are you just making stuff as usual?
@6
Any church where the pastor/minister/priest refers to abortion as murder. I guarantee you that in any such congregation, there’s a person who could be convinced to commit an act of violence as a justifiable response to that rhetoric. Hell, even without an FBI asset cooking up a plot, there have been acts of violence against Planned Parenthood offices.
That said, the scenario described above could just as easily occur, where the FBI agent is too radical and ostracizes himself from the community as a whole. The point I’m making is that I don’t see any evidence anywhere that American Muslims are more prone to radicalism that other religious folks in America.
@6 Do you want the churches the Oklahoma City bombers went to…or the abortion bombers or such? I haven’t looked them up, but can. Then make the argument you could have recruited them from those churches and done “fake plots” to entrap them (where unfortunately no one did, and these folks went on to commit real murders)
I think the question to ask is, did the intending terrorist have the resources, or access to the resources, on his own, sufficient to carry out the plot? There are lots of nutcases out there spouting off all kinds of nonsense, including killing the president, but a quick investigation reveals they are just talk and have no means nor resources to carry out the threat.
I’m troubled if the FBI or whatever counterterrorist organization approached such a person and then pretended to provide all of the resources to carry out the plot. THAT would come mighty close to something we call entrapment.
@9
In several recent cases (including the one in Oregon) that’s pretty much what happened.
Well my nigga did me right, I have another 13 months of fun. Really though if you guys know of a decent job preferably in the Oly to Ft. Lewis area, I will be there… II am qualified, CDLA, Asbestos, lead, mold, OSHA 40 hour mechanic 35 years ect. Very tired of living in the democrats idea of utopia.
11
Wow.
@5 “Entrapment? Perhaps legally, but no question this kid was mentally unstable and crazy violent.”
You’re naive. Until you’ve lived in extreme poverty, you have no idea of what you’re talking about. Here’s what’s really going on:
“Alicia McWilliams, whose nephew David Williams was one of the four men convicted this year in a plot to bomb synagogues in the Bronx, N.Y., said the FBI uses entrapment against people from vulnerable parts of society. McWilliams said FBI informants targeted her nephew because he was young, black, ‘down on his luck’ and impressionable, and offered to pay for his brother’s liver transplant if he agreed to take part in a plot. ‘You can’t go bearing gifts into impoverished communities,’ she told AOL News today. ‘They’re using criminals to create criminals.'”
Now come on, think about this, your brother is dying, and someone comes along and offers to pay for his medical treatment, and you’re supposed to give deep thought to what they’re asking you to do? Get real. If I were on that jury this case wouldn’t have a shelf life longer than fifteen seconds.
The truth is there’s growing evidence the FBI is instigating terrorist crimes where no plots existed. The California case fell apart when the target of the investigation reported the FBI instigator to … the FBI. It’s time to round up a bunch of FBI agents and send them back for retraining.
@5 No, it really isn’t a fine line. Dangling inducements in front of people to commit crimes doesn’t make them guilty or make you innocent simply because you make the inducement tempting enough to get them to bite.
@11 What the fuck are you prattling about? Are you complaining about lack of job opportunities in the depression caused by Republican economic policies? It sounds like it.
No Obama got me in this mess.
6 months go I was gainfully employed…
WTF Chuck, Obama hasn’t changed shit from the Bush administration when it comes to his financial policies. In fact, he’s Bush III.
Face reality.
Why doesn’t one of your fellow Klan members hire you?
@17 I nominate this post for the Golden Goat Award.
Chuck is the closest thing this blog has to a troll with an IQ of zero.
@21,
Roger, he’s got a good excuse: he’s been inhaling and ingesting asbestos, lead and mold for 35 years.
@22
LOL
@20
Noted, I need to look through this guy’s comment history. It might be worthy of an EffU post.
once again, leave to the left to stick up for the terrorists..
some things never change…I’m sure baghdad Jim will come to mic soon to get his name in the headlines.
Before the stupidity gets too deep some here may wish to check out George Habash. He founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and also pioneered airline hijacking. Unless he rejected the religion of his father he was Greek Orthodox.
The more proud leftist writes the more mentally ill he proves to be
1) Ron Reagan Jr… — Bring a Gun to Fight for Social Justice
2) Van Jones Predicting a Civil War?
3) Claire McCaskill
4) Your peeps in action
5) Helen Thomas at it again.
Puddybud is “shtupping” the keyboard again.
Calm Puddybud, calm..
lol…and how about that leftist shill, helen thomas anyway?
what a riot. that little billy barty looking troll sure does have crazy side.
@25: “once again, leave to the left to stick up for the terrorists”..
OK nitwit. Take Orlando Bosch….please.
nah…I will take a Bosch dishwasher instead.
Pud,
Should I feel honored that you paid tribute to me 4 times in a row with the same post? A post, by the way, which suggests I have a mental illness? C’mon, Pud, really?
little doubt that Lee is correct. I never forget talking to a young guy who was a Christian pro-lifer. We became very friendly after he noticed my interest in politics.
In discussing violent pro-lifers, he brought up the example of John Brown. ‘Would you pick up a gun to fight slavery?’ or words to that effect.
It is not really the easiest of questions.
FBI needs to be very careful and controlled when trying to induce people to commit violence. At the very least they should have prior cause for suspicion. No fishing trips.
Hmmm… Looks like Puddy figured a way around Goldy’ blog entry. The system would not allow Puddy to place the PMSNBC link to Ron Reagan’s comments even though you can hear him on PMSNBC make the comment to Chris Matthews.
Calm ylb? It’s the editor not liking PMSNBC embedded links.
Lee-
Hey Dumbass, your guy ImamObaMao and the Democrats are still in charge.
Go talk to them about this.
You were sooooo excited when Obama was elected.
You seemed to feel he was the messiah.
Disappointed Lee?
Seems like it because of your chronic bitching.
22. Rob spews:
Rob you bonehead.
The Rabbit drags around an oxygen tank from years of smoking cigs.
At least the other guy was trying to earn a living.
Rog was just foolish.
He was an addict.
re 39: Name one accomplishment of Baby Bush’s that even equals something this administration has done.
Was Bush’s mission really accomplished? I don’t think so.
Maybe we’d have a lot less trouble with Muslim terrorists if we stopped fucking around in their countries and supporting Israel no-matter-what. It’s time for Israel to go it alone, without the US as a back-up.
We could do a lot by emulating Switzerland. When was the last time you heard of the Swiss getting involved in some damn foreign adventure? They pretty much mind their own business and handle the money. Why can’t we get ourselves out of these messes around the globe?
Hey Lee
Still waiting for your answer to my question way back at #6 or are you just making this stuff up.
By the way – Who runs the the FBI – Oh yea the Justice Dept and Eric Holder – Who does Eric report to? Ah shucks he reports to Obama. So Obama is responsible for the tactics of the FBI that so so much hate. So does it follow that you also hate the Obama tactics?
This story reminds me of something that happened around 1972. The FBI was trying to infiltrate and disrupt protest groups that might appear at the Republican convention in Miami.
If I remember correctly, an FBI informant infiltrated an anti-war group. He kept urging them to commit violent acts, such as planting bombs in federal facilities, etc. They thought he was just crazy, and ignore him.
Then the FBI convinced a Grand Jury to indict all the senior leadership of the group on conspiracy charges. But the case fell apart as the facts were uncovered, and as the subsequent Watergate investigation uncovered the activities of the Plumbers unit, the charges were ultimately dismissed.
I’ve know a few FBI agents over the years. One was the father of a member of my swim team when I was young, and I’ve known a few others over the years. I’ve found them all to be serious and dedicated public servants.
But the problem is that in the federal goverment, we have overlapping jurisdiction which creates a fight for resources. Homeland Security, Customs & Immigration, the Treasury Dept., NSA, CIA, Coast Guard, and the other armed services all compete for funding and priority for anti-terrorism activities.
The FBI got a bit of a black eye because it didn’t do more to stop the 9/11 attacks, and since then it’s devoted more than it’s fair share of resources toward anti-terrorist activities. Until recently, white-collar crime prosecutions had become so low on the FBI’s priority list that investigations and prosecutions were rare.
So the push for “results” creates the impetus for these types of cases, one which needs to be carefully managed and controlled.
i guess the only place free of criminals and haters are synagogues.
Right wing “Christian” sheeple have proved themselves to be extremely gullible (see: Glenn Beck) so the FBI agent wouldn’t even need to be that charismatic. All the agent would have to do is tell prospective bomber 1) that he is a Christian himself and 2) God wants us to kill the babykillers.
Think how many hundreds of Republikans we could set-up and lock-up using their own tactics!
A quick Google search renders susan’s comments meaningless…as usual.
http://www.charlotteobserver.c.....linic.html
So is this piece of shit saying that being Jewish isn’t so bad after all? It must be snowing in hell.
When barely competent Muslim nutcases get caught in these FBI stings, the media shows up at their Mosques within minutes to interview leaders, take footage, etc. But not at Royal Oaks Baptist Church. ‘Cuz Moose is American Taliban – not Taliban Taliban. And the right wing fear-mongers would never be fearful of their OWN holy warriors.
The HA trolls smile to themselves when “their” right wing team strikes a blow against Muslims, free thinkers, liberals, etc
@40
Still waiting for your answer to my question way back at #6 or are you just making this stuff up.
I responded to you in comment #7: Any congregation where the pastor/minister/priest refers to abortion as murder. And you and I both know that there are many such places in the United States.
@18 I can’t visualize you being gainfully employed except maybe by Goodwill.
@37 I have bad habits but smoking was never one of them. Neither was fucking goats. I think the syphillis is getting to your spinal cord,* Klown.
* I was going to say “getting to your brain” but then remembered you don’t have one.
Hey Rabbit–
Were you insulted by the guy who made fun of the poor guy by saying what he inhaled affected his ability to think & reason?
Seemed like he was talking about YOU Rog.
What kind of idiot would smoke cigs for decades Rog?? You??
And you are also jealous of my butt-kicking on gold when you said it was a silly investment.
You ain’t doin’ well Rog.
Investment Tip #1–Find out what the Rabbit is doing
Investment Tip #2–Do the opposite and be prosperous!
@48
so if I think abortion is a form of murder, that somehow makes me a terrorist?
take another toke, dood.
no wonder people like you are so out of touch with most of America. Luckily for you, your wife seems to have the brains and common sense in your marriage, otherwise you would be in a 24 pot-induced stupor….you should thank her for straightening your shit out and moving your ass to where the responsible adults live.
@52
so if I think abortion is a form of murder, that somehow makes me a terrorist?
Absolutely not. But in any congregation where the pastor/minister/priest expresses that view, there will inevitably be a follower who can be convinced that an act of terrorism is an appropriate response to what they’re trained to see as “mass murder”.
no wonder people like you are so out of touch with most of America.
America is a land built upon an ideal that people have the freedom to worship freely. If believing in that ideal makes me out of touch with most of America, this country is in trouble.