A big thank you to The Seattle Times for the public service of posting the list of rejected King County ballots online!
My vote apparently counted… how about yours?
(FYI, the most likely surname to be disqualified was Johnson, with 17 rejected ballots. I guess those dicks just don’t know how to vote.)
Yes, I called weeks ago. List in P I as well. – Any details about new law suit about 561 ballots?
Well, I saw it in the Times first, so considering how often I criticize their editorial board, I owe it to them to give them credit when they do something I like.
I haven’t heard anything specific about a GOP lawsuit. At the top of the hour on KUOW there were vague quotes from Rossi that if the 561 flipped the election he would not “take it lying down” and some other whine from Vance. It sounds more like a threat to contest the election than to challenge these ballots preemptively.
I kind of hope they do file a lawsuit. It will show them for the hipocrites that they really are. (I’m not saying the D’s aren’t too, but the R’s have been all high and mighty recently.)
Guys- on KING, Rossi clearly stated that “we are going to count these votes and make sure they are counted correctly”- don’t know what more you could ask of him…
Comment by Goldy— 12/14/04 @ 5:32 pm
Comment by Jim King— 12/14/04 @ 5:56 pm
Gents: I say, very frankly, we should draw the line. This election is being stolen… New ballots keep appearing and Rossi always gets robbed!
If you saw today’s Seattle Times “Agency accused of hindering audit” about how Brian Sonntag cannot do his job thanks to some pals of Gregoire, then you know what is at stake. Let me put the matter this way: AG Gregoire, if she were competent and patriotic, would pick up the phone and tell DSHS to cooperate… or else!
There’s no excuse for what’s going on down there. Absolutely none!
(Tomorrow, Skagit County announces its results.)
Let me go further: I am madder than a mad hatter because I wonder why it’s always King County and why isn’t the clerk that screwed up on those 500+ ballots dragged into a press conference and brought up on charges?
Let me go even further: What I see, what the Rossi chaps see is what makes me furious – we don’t see any attempt made whatsoever to respect the result by the Gregocrats.
(Deep breath)
Okay, I’ve calmed down a bit. But I do believe the Vaninator should sue to stop it. Or make it clear that the election could be contested if Rossi loses – we at least have something to stand on. Gregoire does not – except turnabout on a pledge if the election is overturned.
Josef- my Magic Eight Ball is now saying, when all is done and over, Rossi by…
42!
It is now within the realm of possibility…
Quick breakdown on my thoughts, as I just sent them out to clients, family, and friends…
1) Rossi up by 106, after just under one-third of the vote recounted.
2) Rossi loses 79 or 80, on the King County 561, so margin drops to 26 or 27.
3) Of the seven remaining counties, Skagit, Spokane, Snohomish, and Pierce will PROBABLY benefit Rossi more than Whatcom, Thurston, and the rest of King will help Gregoire.
Of course, those events will probably NOT happen in that order, but the final result would still be Rossi by three dozen, plus or minus six. Or seven. And all that is just hunches and instinct…
Okay, Jim – I’ll chill.
BTW: Skagit County is holding back the results until tomorrow. You hear about Sonntag being blocked by DSHS from doing his job? Makes you wanna do all you can for Dino, eh?
Who would they sue? What venue? The International Court in the Hague?
Think about it – The Supremes in the deliberations talked about King using the specific provision in the law- the one that is letting King correct that batch of uncounted ballots via the canvassing board.. I think it diminshed the overall problem for them….the system already works.
Then, they say, in effect, no thanks. Justice Bobbi Bridge is concerned about finality, so is the decision.
Sue in Federal Court, oh yeah, Fed Ct should be eager to boost anybodys’ butt after the Stae Supreme Court said let it ride, the law is adequate.
Rossi this Pm on King 5, muttered something about keeping all options. Gregore with that cute pointed smile, and those pointed eyes – and Grinchy look, said she would live with the results.
Class act, Chrissie.
BOOM BOOM BOOM – hark, I do hear the ballot cannon shooting, oh so stongly shooting, yes, the True Red Heaven of Seattle, is heavy with D voter wad…….go King, go……..isn’t this the season of the Three Kings….Christ mas…Christ ine
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/14/04 @ 6:59 pm
You can be an arrogant Gregocrat all you want. This Dinocrat says: You know, we Rossi people have looked the other way for waaaayyy too long. Where is this clerk who fouled up? Why isn’t that clerk in protective custody, being brought up on charges?
We have a right and the Rossi campaign leadership has a responsibility at this point not to accept any result other than a Rossi win. We have this incident to stand on, we have the unsecured ballots in Skagit County, we have the unsecured blank ballots, etcetera. Gregoire has gotten all the easy breaks until today…
We Rossi people are also, because of today’s Seattle Times article, scared to death of another 4 years of that filth. Filth being not cooperating with the State Auditor without consequences. If I were the State AG, I would be flying off the roof, calling my replacement to make a joint statement to urge cooperation or else… That’s leadership and rebuilding trust in gov’t.
Ya know, Bob, when this is over we’ll have to start making predictions about the Philadelphia Eagles for Goldy…
Predict all you want, but Emily Dickinson best described the diehard Eagles fan: “Hope is the thing with feathers.”
Time for a chuckle—for all —yes—
At the other syte- where the Roundheads chat………..just announced new theory why all the problems in KingsCo………
…….today the buzz at the King County counting space is that the ballots that are being found are actually ones that Republicans working there have been routinely trying to hide all along ……..only one word is appropriate, what a hoot.
At last the truth doth come forth…..just in time for end of times law suit
Dear Joseph, you said “We Rossi people are also, because of today’s Seattle Times article, scared to death of another 4 years of that filth.” If it is so bad and has been so ‘hurtful’ to your little neobutt, why don’t you apply for a room at the Grand GWB Palace in Guantanamo. I am sure you would be happier there. LMAO at you and your natzicon friends
“We have a right and the Rossi campaign leadership has a responsibility at this point not to accept any result other than a Rossi win. We have this incident to stand on, we have the unsecured ballots in Skagit County, we have the unsecured blank ballots, etcetera. Gregoire has gotten all the easy breaks until today…We Rossi people are also, because of today’s Seattle Times article, scared to death of another 4 years of that filth.”
Josef, fully fledged neoconservative, and Proud Rossi Defender! Fan of the Grand Old Police! Propoganda lackey for Chris Vance, Republican Warrior, and Sound Politics, the “gold standard” of blogging! That’s what you are! And if you can’t grasp that, then you have a long ways to go before you come to grips with reality. I wish you luck on your voyage of political self discovery.
Comment by Sandra Morrison— 12/14/04 @ 8:51 pm
I’m giggling at you… I make more gaffes than I want to admit.
But you all missed this:
Filth being not cooperating with the State Auditor without consequences.
You all need to read ALL that I say. And I giggle now at me.
God Bless.
GO DINO!
DON’T STEAL MY VOTE!
DON’T LAUGH (too hard) AT ME!
Sandra,
When I said “gold standard” – I also meant THIS blog, too!
AGAIN, LEARN TO READ ALL I SAY – NOT JUST SELECT QUOTES!
Josef… let me ask you something… do you think the Dems fabricated those 561 ballots? Do you think they are fraudulent? Or are you just pissed off that they’re going to be counted now, when they weren’t counted the first two times?
And let me ask you something else. If those 561 ballots were legitimate ballots from legitimate voters, that weren’t counted due to clerical error — and these ballots provide the margin to flip this election one way or the other — are you telling me that counting them now would be “stealing the election” from Rossi, but not counting them would not be stealing it from Gregoire?
And let’s be honest here, what with the (un)Sound Politics paranoids talking about the will of the people and stolen elections and such. Those 1500+ King County ballots that will not be counted… surely, the majority of those are from legitimate, registered voters, who if they had gone to the polls, would not have had their signatures compared, and those would not have been disenfranchised. Regardless of whose fault that disenfranchisement is… explain to me how a narrow Rossi victory — enabled by King County’s anal signature comparison policies — in any way represents the “will of the people”…? What it will represent is an electoral victory as prescribed by law, nothing more, nothing less.
Winning the first two counts does not give Rossi any moral, ethical or legal claim to the governorship.
Goldy:
Josef… let me ask you something… do you think the Dems fabricated those 561 ballots?
They might have. I am suspicious and cynical of each and every new discovery of ballots… When do you stop and ask yourself where do these ballots come from? And why is this happening?
Do you think they are fraudulent?
I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me. See above.
Or are you just pissed off that they’re going to be counted now, when they weren’t counted the first two times?
I am madder than hell they weren’t counted at the appropiate legal time, that being the first count. Hence my cynicism, Goldy. The first count should have been all about straightening these kind of issues out. The second should have been about finding the ballots the machine wouldn’t read or got stuck…
Do you get what I mean?
That said, I am just fit to be tied. I am going to be real blunt with you all and it’s going to hurt: There is no doubt in my mind that although Governor-elect Rossi should stay that way, he needs to respect the Dinocrats that gave him his job and assume that he doesn’t have a mandate.
Goldy, As far as I know, every county compares signatures even if you vote at the polls. The problem with the 561 recycled ballots is with the timing, the import, the past performance of King elections, piled together into a non-credible showing. The whole distrust thing was fueled by the selective provisional ballot validation supervised by Berendt. Distrust of King County at this point in time is not a symptom of a warped mind, it is a natural reaction to all the things that have happened.
Here’s a way to look at it: every county’s voters are represented by their elected county govt., who is ultimately responsible for the election division. If the county staff screws up, the voters who got disenfranchised can deal with it next time they elect a county exec.
Goldy- the 1500 ballots that won’t be counted- what percentage do you believe are legitimate? 50%? 90%? As I see it, 1500 of 900,000 is about one-sixth of one percent. I would not be surprised to have that low level of illegitimate ballots.
The closeness of this race magnifies everything. We CANNOT achieve perfection, and any revision of the rules “favors” one side or the other- it is the one good reason for not changing the rules in mid-count.
Comment by Jim King— 12/14/04 @ 10:01 pm
A-MEN.
zip – you are serving two mastrs. You have some sense of the stark and simple fact of good governtment, human error and nice people loosing their right to vote……voting for all candidates.
THEN the narrow view of the partisian takes over. I am a long time KingCo voter and I have been posting furious posts about the mess in King County. I felt that way only because it was an obvious mess, that posting weeks ago.
I said Logan should be fired, there were thousands of ban office process errors. I am glad some will be recified and counted.
I like Gregoire, but if Rossi wins in the end- little chance- I will not self disruct in some insane furry at the Republicans. No mania, no boarderline neurosis. An important election, but just an election.
No theft, minimum or negligible fraud, AND the interesting ride of an historic close election right here in “river city”.
There will be reforms, for the WHOLE FUCKING state. We can all applaud that, uniform standatds, same ballot mechanisms….a clear declaration about re-canvassing as in all other states….much longer list. Some hard work, many months to do it.
It would seem many of the counties are very crude counters in this affair. …King stands out because it is wealthy and the sheer numbers. The pay is good, and we all expect better.
If you think Larry Phillips isn’t angry you do not know him at all. He wins big time for sheer exposure. Good luck today, but it will pay him in the future to promise to get the warts and bumps out of King County election, great issue……….
And if th Dems get their money back, plenty to pay for some election reform political stuff. And reform is a great frame around this kind of mess.
Chill. Buy you a drink at the victory party.
Bob, the problem is King keeps coming up with new wrinkles at a late date. It begs the question: hwta else have they scrwed up and how does it affect the count? You are correct: Partisan (I can’t stand Gregoire) and self interested (small business owner). I will not believe the results of this until a credible audit of King’s votes. I hope this happens in early 2005.
Comment by zip— 12/14/04 @ 10:35 pm
I concur.
Josef, I think the media has been very clear about where these ballots came from and why it is happening now. Larry Phillips discovered his ballot had been rejected, demanded that Logan tell him why, and when Logan looked into it, he discovered that not only was it a mistake, but it was a mistake that happened to 560 other voters.
The statute allows addressing errors like this during a recount. And understand, if these ballots had been counted the first time around, as they should have been, Gregoire would have won the machine recount.
Zip… Think about it… how would that even be possible? I went to the polling place and signed into the book, and they gave me a ballot, which I filled out and fed into the scanner. Now perhaps, looking for fraud, they could compare my signature in the book to my signature on record (and knowing my crappy signature, it might not match), but they have no idea which ballot is mine, so there is no way to reject it after the fact.
What I think you and Josef and a lot of angry Rossifarians are missing, is that any incompetence in the King County elections office disproportionately hurts Gregoire.
Remember, Rossi publicly stated that he would not have sought a hand recount. If he is a man of his word, and those 561 ballots had not been erroneously rejected, Gregoire would be Governor-elect, and this whole election mess would be over. As it stands now, the hand recount might still give the election to Rossi, despite the 561. You should be thanking King County for screwing up… it’s what has kept your man alive.
Not quite ready to thank King County. If we ever find out what else they screwed up (perhaps a few ineligible voters in King County, that would seem to have kept your gal alive) I’ll be thankful.
Okay, Goldy- now 22 more ballots, left in the bottom of polling machines where voters had dropped them off- supposedly.
I’ve been reasonable, but now we have chain of custody questions.
Jim… Define “legitimate.” Ballots from legitimately registered voters? The vast majority. On the other hand, I expect the vast majority of these ballots are either missing signatures, or a reasonable person might question whether the signatures match. By that standard, maybe only a few hundred might survive closer scrutiny from the canvassing board.
But we’re arguing two different issues here. Josef and Cynical and Zip and Chuck and the (un)Sound Politics folks are claiming that the Dems are trying to steal this election with fraudulent votes. Perhaps the Dems are trying to flip the election to Gregoire by counting “legitimate” votes that might otherwise be disallowed according to standard practice in King County… but that doesn’t mean they are somehow defying the will of the people, as the other side claims.
I have empathy with your argument about not changing the rules in the middle of the game, but I’m willing to play the same kind of hardball I believe the R’s would be playing if they were in a similar situation. This is not stealing an election.
The fact remains that a significantly higher percentage of ballots were rejected in King County than elsewhere in the state, and if Rossi wins, this will be his margin of victory. So I find it preposterous when Josef and his fellow travelers claim that the irregularities in King County somehow benefits Democrats.
Comment by Jim King— 12/14/04 @ 11:06 pm
Yeah, and you know what got me curious was when Chris Vance pointed out that King County wasn’t securing blank ballots. I’m no “black helicopter” freak, but do I need to connect dots? The line must be drawn.
That said, thank you King County for screwing up, I guess.
Goldy, I think it benefits Democrats when the rules are changed and ballots mysteriously appear. You want me to trust King County Elections: Okay then, I want the individual employees responsible put in protective custody and brought up on charges… (I only sarcastically thanked King County, BTW)
Then I’ll start buying these stories of new ballots again. Please remember that this is not the first time ballots have been added and technically, ballots are not to be added after certification. Also, the blank ballots are not secured…
Ooops, I forgot to add: Charges of election fraud and malfeasance, for starters. It’s time to draw a line.
I have no more information on this than you do. But the number of ballots counted per precinct still couldn’t exceed the number of voters who signed in at the polls.
Jim, you know as well as I, that shit like this happens all the time. It’s just that in most elections, it doesn’t make a difference.
HOLD THE PRESS – King 5 just announced that yet another batch of ballots found in King, 22 more ballots.
595 now the number going to canvass tomorrow. The new hoard were found tucked near some counting machines- Time to look high and low, nook and cranny searches.
My be true the R’s who work there were trying to hide some of the radical voter ballots and it has now backfired.
Goldy- I’m not going to be held to anyone else’s arguments…
By legitimate, I mean what number do you think are registered voters who have had a signature “evolve” or whatever, but on close examination, or consultation with the voter, would be proved to have been cast by a registered voter according to the rules… I think the problem you have here is the failure of the voter to follow up when the absentee ballot was questioned. Notices WERE sent…
I have grave doubts about these new 22 ballots. From news reports, they were found in several different locations, having been left at some time in the unsecured base units of voting machines. Workers are supposed to bag these ballots and return them election night.
We have, unfortunately, no proof they were submitted on Election Day- no postmark, nothing. These, in just my little opinion, fall into the same unfortunate category as other screw-ups we cannot validate.
And, admittedly, no notice would have gone to any absentee voter (twenty absentee, two provisional). What we have out there is an unknown number of votes cast by registered voters that will never be known or counted. And if we could freeze everything, and do a two week turn in your postal error, check your absentee- but the time has passed. I DO believe that Democrats are hoping to wound the Rossi transition. The payback is the blame they get for creating the need for the special sessions.
Accept the 561. Establish chain of custody for the others, and proof of timeliness, or reject them.
Josef, you just can’t add a bunch of new ballots to the scanning machine…. it doesn’t work that way. The precincts still need to match the number of ballots to the number of people who showed up at the polls.
Jim raises a legitimate issue of chain of custody… whether these ballots were properly secured. But your conjectures of fraud are just that.
Okay Goldy, let’s call all these new votes “questionable” or “uncertifiable” rather than “fraudulent”. The King County count still sucks. Any remedy to this string of snafus (starting with the Berendt selective validation of ballots for the first “re” count) would be better than continuing down this path.
Goldy- from print press reports, these were found in the base units when they were recovered from polling places. These are two provisionals (perhaps cast at that location) and dropped off absentees- they wouldn’t necessarily be from those precincts, and probably could not be reconciled with poll books.
They were out in public places, not even in the security of Elections Department storage. This is where I believe fraud CAN occur (not saying these are fraudulent)- where individuals can try and game the system.
If I had to stake my life on them being fraudulent- no, I don’t think so. Would I swear they were valid- not without SOMETHING from circumstances to give chain of custody and timeliness a leg to stand on.
And if King County voters don’t like what is happening- they elected and reelected Ron Sims… Sometimes you pay the price for the voting choices you made- ask Tacoma taxpayers who missed several chances to elect a council majority that would have dumped Ray Corpuz- now they’ll get to pay off the lawsuits.
And no, I still do not blame Dean Logan- he’s still cleaning rot out of the system he inherited, and there is no record of problems like this in his previous jobs. But Sims let King County Elections get SO incompetent, before bringing in a competent manager, that he DOES deserve blame. Run Phil, run!
At this point, personally I dont feel we can trust the King County Elections dept. I think it is time to throw this county out of the election and let the voters deal with their corrupt officials…22 more votes at this late day, custody chain questions, blank ballots, no it is time to call a spade a spade and pull this county!
Get an injunction, stop the King County count and get some other county’s personnel in to straighten out this mess. And dust these 22 for fingerprints.
Comment by Chuck— 12/14/04 @ 11:44 pm
Even I think that’s too extreme. The thought crossed my mind, though… until I started to vomit. We just need to draw a line: NO MORE BALLOTS WITHOUT CHAIN OF CUSTODY FOR ALL OF THEM, period. RETROACTIVE TO THE INITIATION OF THE HAND RECOUNT.
SecState Reed has called for intensive documentation, as do I. No documentation, with signed affidavits – no ballots counted.
Chuck (and all of you), please join my runoff election chorus. My mother (a Gregoire supporter – barely), my father (a Dinocrat) and I all want a runoff election…
Comment by zip— 12/14/04 @ 11:50 pm
I somewhat like your ide – let me fine tune it: Stop King County’s count, search the premises for ballots, destroy all ballots unaccounted for, then restart the count with intensive supervision (potentially international).
That would be a good start, but I am afraid we cannot trust these ballots any longer. It is like the OJ trial now, when everyone knew he was guilty as hell…exept for one lying racist cop that was first on the scene at every piece of evedence….
Comment by Jim King— 12/14/04 @ 11:37 pm
I’ll think about laying off “Governor Dean” Logan. . .
But Sims must go. RUN FORMER JUSTICE PHIL TALMADGE RUN!
I’m going to bed, so just a string of brief replies…
Jim, like I said, I believe the bulk of the 1500 are ballots from legitimate voters, that given unlimited time and resources could have been verified. Likely, most of them would not pass scrutiny if the canvassing board gave them a look, but likely, some would. My point here is that while Rossi may win by the rules, it is not fair to argue that Dems are defying the will of the people.
As to the 22 votes, well I understand why people would be suspicious, but I sincerely doubt fraud. If these are absentee and provisional, they are in their envelopes, and the voters are clearly identifiable. Fraud would be easy to discover.
Zip… yes, the King County vote count sucks. It would have been nice if they had gotten it right the first time. But I should note that while the number of errors in King County seem large, as a percentage of the total vote it is not quite so dramatic.
And Jim, as to Logan… he’s never run a county as large as King before.
We cannot have these employees counting ANY more ballots.
I see only 2 positive outcomes:
Proof of actual fraud to be discovered in King County, causing the election to be thrown to the legislature who will be forced by public outcry and the press to certify Rossi, or a run off. Those 2 are the only ways left now that the count is so botched up. Both are pipe dreams, the train is rolling and there’s no stopping it.
Thanks, Christine! You could see this coming but called for the recount anyway. What a class act.
One last comment before bed… again, if those 561 ballots had been counted the first time, like they should have been, it would have been Rossi who had asked for the hand recount.
This is a democrat commiting suicide, sh wont be able to be dog catcher after this.
Zip: Here’s how I see a runoff working…
Get the two candidates to sign an agreement to do it. I’m certain if we start asking for it, we’ll make something happen. Great ideas have to start somewhere… and besides, the folks wanted 872 (I voted against it – because I see party conventions selecting candidates).
If Gregoire “wins” the hand count, she has no incentive to agree. She’s got the legislature as a backup to settle a contested election.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It is so strange to hear avowed partisian R’s bellowing about what Gregoire should and should not do.
I guess my mood is a bit strange, but it makes me snicker.
Fact, canvassing board will decide tomorrow……..and SURPRISE I think these votes from tomorrows canvass board decisions, then, become part of a new revised canvass total already submited as he final vote after the mandatory recount- if so, Gregoire might be the gov elect tomorow- by a very small margin…..maybe….What say JK? Incarnate Golda?
Wonder of wonders……stay tuned..
Not with the look of corruption going on in King County
Again, if these ballots were counted in the first place Gregory would be governor and the republicans would be bending the rules as always and going to big daddy george for help. Lets get this over with and get on with our lives.
Also, Mr Cynical and neocon crew, you better get back to unsound politics as they really need your supplies of prozac and marijuana to get them through these next few BLUE days. LMAO
Here’s the theory: The Republicans claimed, early on, that any recount that resulted in Gregoire winning would be caused by Democrat cheating (one way or the other).
By repeating this mantra, using all sorts of presumed scenarios, consistently, artfully and often, they have created, among many, a feeling that a Gregoire victory would certainly be a result of malicious play.
This is brilliant PR — create a false end result presumption, stay on message and repeat at all points. This technique is powerful and often successful.
Kudos to the PR machine to create and deliver the “Gregorie Wins means Democrats Cheat” message.
Almost as brilliant as Rove getting gay marriage on the ballot in closely contested states….
Doesnt matter who it is when King County Elections keeps pulling ballots out of their sleeves….
Tom’s got it exactly right. Republicans have become very good at framing the issue with the public in a way that makes them “appear” right. But it has little to do with “objective truth”.
Democrats need to take a page from their playbook and stick to their guns (their message). Chuck, Cynical, zip and Stefan can scream all they want, but it just doesn’t matter. They won’t admit it (maybe even to themselves), but they’re really only interested in seeing their side win. The whole “fairness” issue is a red herring.
I’m willing to have a reasoned conversation with people who are concerned about the details of the recount, but as for people who already concluded that “democrats cheat” or “throw King County out” – there’s nothing to be gained from debating with you.
Hint: If you find yourself saying, “I’m tired of letting King County control the state”, you don’t understand the basics of this election (one person, one vote, acreage doesn’t matters). King County currently has 1/3 of the population of the state, and is (I believe) the fasted growing county in the state. Several rural counties in eastern Washington have stagnant and/or shrinking population growth. As King County continues to grow in population, it will continue to exert a proportional effect on the outcome of any statewide issue (including how money’s spent).
I know this seems basic, but whenever I read someone talk about King County votes (or voters) as somehow being nefarious in their effect on statewide matters, it just irks me.
The only issue to me about King County is that it appears to be far more diligent than almost every other county in actually trying to count every vote. A handful of other counties have discovered uncounted ballots. To me, virtually every county should have had dozens, if not hundreds, of them (depending on the county’s size, of course). One example of the obvious disdain for getting the count right would of course be Yakima. In the machine count they reported no change something that I personally thought was absolutely impossible. Now in the hand count, they show 55 changes. Better and more diligent, but the total error rate statewide, to date, of 440 vote changes out of about 850,000 votes recounted still appears to be way to low. So Republicans who complain about King County being diligent in its effort should really be yelling and screaming about the counties that Rossi leads in for not caring at all about finding all of the votes that people cast. If Gregroire ends up on top it’s really because the GOP counties don’t care about voters and voting while the Democratic counties do.
Before we Democrats get all high-and-mighty about “every vote counts” I just want everyone to remember a little bit of historical wisdom. Republicans have certainly benefited from voter suppression (e.g. “poll” taxes disenfranchising poor blacks, using police to keep people from voting, etc.), but Democrats have also benefited from illegal voter turnount efforts (i.e. dead people voting). Neither side is immune, at least historically speaking, from illegal or overly nitpicky efforts to get “their guy” to win.
With that said, I put little stake in the other sides’ hyperbolic rhetoric about this election being stolen, votes being fraudulent, etc. Accusations are not proof, and any doubt is not reasonable doubt.
Right. It’s about getting my guy/gal elected by whatever means. Neither party is moral — neither is amoral. Both are doing (and saying) what they can to try to get the result they want.
The system is in place, both sides are using it to their advantage. If the system is broken, it should be fixed (e.g. runoff instead of a recount when things are so close).
That said, this discussion is entertaining: “You cheat! No I didn’t! This is Urkaine! No it isn’t! You lie! No I don’t!” Can’t script much better stuff…
Nelson – post that at S Politics, it is a brilliant observation. We all wondered what was the skinney in some of the counties other than King when they showed 0000 changes.
Lots of slop out there, magnified in KINK Co.
Nelson, remember, as incarnate Golda has so astutely oserved, that YES, there have been thousand of changes. We only see the net net as most of the changes cancel each other in the end totals.
Did I get it right Goldy?…. Gregoire by 89- or 69, the medium can’t be quite sure.
King is moving slowly on the absentees, wouldn’t want to do two shifts like QFC, will indeed be Dec 22nd. God, this is taking a long time afer all.
Bob — thanks for the note. I just posted the same message at S Politics.
Yeah, I knew that, could hear the hyneas howling and grumping. They claim that they are planning mass demonstrations. Wait till they face the riot cops. Since WTO Seattle in not kind about demos. And of course, the Republican anarchists will show up, out of hiding at last, ruin everything…. This blue sky has me feeling up……so does the recount.