[NWPT55]While I hate to disappoint the knee-jerk righties over at (un)Sound Politics, I have to say that I’m not a huge fan of the Seattle Monorail. But as long as they continue to lead their coverage with the headline “Die, Monorail, Die”, it’s hard not to oppose the opposition, despite my misgivings. Monorail opponents seem to have a one-track mind, and that mind has long be set on derailing the project, whatever the final proposal might be.
I voted for every monorail initiative, except for the one that authorized the final project. As much as I believe in public transit, and as much as I believe a fancy new monorail will become an instant symbol of 21st century Seattle, when I saw the details, it just didn’t seem worth the cost, especially given the means of financing it. Still, the people had spoken — however narrowly — and when the incredibly cynical “Monorail Recall” initiative hit the ballot last fall, I voted against it. If we’re going to allow opponents of public projects unlimited opportunities to kill them by plebiscite, we’ll never build anything.
I know, I know… nuance is a weakness progressives simply can’t afford, and with the anti-tax, anti-government, anti-infrastructure crowd attacking the gas tax and the monorail on purely ideological grounds, somebody on our side has to be just as reactionary if we’re going to have a hope of maintaining an informed debate in the middle. From what I’ve seen the Seattle Monorail Project (SMP) board is more than up to the task, so I don’t have to be. That’s why I’m going to take a long, hard look at the final proposal released yesterday, before voicing my opinion one way or the other.
But one detail already has me worried. My main reason for voting against the monorail was the huge chunk it took out of voters’ car tabs… this year I’m paying a $177.00 monorail tax on my four-year-old Nissan Altima (the older, anemic model, not the newer fancier one.) My concern was that during the 25 years it took to pay off the bonds, voters would never approve a similar tax for other important transportation projects… you know, like the other half of the financing for replacing the dangerously crumbling Alaska Way Viaduct.
Now we’re told that due to rising costs and lower revenues, the car tab will be needed until 2050… nearly twice the number of years originally estimated. Ouch.
If I were a Seattle City Council member, I would be loath to overturn the will of the voters and reject this proposal… but I would still need to be convinced that it delivers something reasonably close to what voters were promised. I urge the Council to explore the details very carefully, and vote their minds not their hearts.
I’ll come back to this issue with a more informed opinion after I’ve had the opportunity to digest the facts.
I can’t figure out what the attraction is to fund huge projects that look good as concepts, but are total failures in practice.
The monorail will do nothing to relieve congestion. It is fixed, and therefore can’t adapt to changing commute patterns. It is way over budget, and is now going fewer places with fewer stops than originally designed.
When is it proper to reconsider a project that no longer meets the goals or cost projections originally authorized by the voters? It seems that in Seattle, once the voters have said yes to something, it can never die, regardless of how little resemblance it has to the original.
Go for it, Seattle, come up with another reason why smart people are moving out.
Monofail
Thus far I dont care about the monorail, it is a Seattle problem that is staying in Seattle for the most part. You guys should do the same with your bridges and viaducts. That said you guys need to clean house from the top down in your government, with the money available they should have been able to make it work, King County government has a magnafied version of the same hemmoraging mess that WADOT has.
PRT would be a better investment (check out the “Strategy” section of the linked site).
HA! — “Monorail opponents seem to have a one-track mind…”
Oh my spleen!
Bravo, Goldy!
This is the problem that we have with DOT projects. They never live up to the estimates they propose that are passed by voters.
Look at the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. It was approved for $350 million, but is, as of figures 2 years ago, going to cost in excess of $850 million. With their recent silence, I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that it costs over $1 Billion.
With this No New Gas Tax initiative, I’m somewhat undecided, but leaning in supporting it due to the ineptitude of deceit of the DOT when it comes to accurately estimating costs. I’d rather not give money to somebody to formulate a plan. Instead, come to the voters with a plan to fix something and it’ll get the thumbs up or thumbs down. It has nothing to with a “Left Wing” or “Right Wing” issue, it’s all about accountability. Give us some accurate projections up front.
How much longer are people going to allow them to bait and switch? As you said, there are other projects that are needed as well, but how much longer are we going to let them continue to vastly underestimate or purposely mis-state the actual cost estimates?
C’mon, Chuck, you know full well that the 520 and the 99 are state roads: not city roads, not county roads. If you live in this state, they’re “your” bridges and viaducts too. (Can you say “our”? I knew you could.) You can’t dump their whole costs onto Seattle any more than you can dump the cost of widening and repaving I-90 onto Cle Elum.
David @ 4
But what if you got a PRT vehicle that ChardoWhine had just used? The seats would be covered in wine puke and cigarrette butts. Not to mention that annoying smegma smell.
PU!
Eww. They’d have to take that one temporarily out of service.
Chuck, I think if you started an innitiative to keep all state taxes in the county they were obtaineed from, you would be a great success.
* The eastern WA people would love to stick it to us Wastern Libs
* Western WA would love to quit subsidizing Eastern WA infrastructure.
We both win! Heck E. WA don’t need bridges and roads. They can just go everywhere by wagon.
Janet S. @ 1
“When is it proper to reconsider a project that no longer meets the goals or cost projections originally authorized by the voters?”
November 2004? Hmm, whether it was proper or not, it was reconsidered at the last General Election, and the voters reaffirmed their support for it. The people have spoken. Again — for the 4th time, if I’m not mistaken.
Does that answer your question, Janet? Holy cow, and I thought bunnies were dumb!
Cheesy Chuckie @ 3
I could support your suggestion IF all gas taxes paid by King County residents stays in King County and is spent on projects within King County, and you flatlanders pay for your own fucking roads. Ingrates!
Reply to 7
“You can’t dump … the cost of widening and repaving I-90 onto Cle Elum.”
Sure we could, and if the gas tax repeal passes, I think we should. These assholes have it coming. We should also put a gate across I-90 at the King County line and charge them a $25 toll every time they want to enter OUR county.
Can somebody link something that says whether King/Pierce/snohomish counties are net exporters or importers of infastructure money? People throw various ideas around alot, but I’ve seen no evidence of whats true
“The monorail will do nothing to relieve congestion. It is fixed, and therefore can’t adapt to changing commute patterns. It is way over budget, and is now going fewer places with fewer stops than originally designed.â€
Lets see, taking your points in order…
It will keep congestion from getting worse. That is a positive in my book. The fact is we can never build enough roads to relive congestion either. Do you really want to become like LA? It didn’t work for them and with our geography the results would be 10X worse for us.
And as far as being fixed, it will be much easier to move/expand the monorail then it will be to pick up and move I5 should patterns change.
The cost has gone up but it was not out of line with what you can expect with a project this big – public or private. I think one of the best things in this project is the ½ billion dollars in performance bonds so that if the operation of the monorail does not live up to standards the city/county is not on the hook for the whole thing.
As for the stations, now you are just spewing talking points… there will be 16 stations built immediately and the last three will be built later on. Again, they seem to be trying to build it conservatively since their revenue is coming in lower then expected. But hey, lets condemn them for that as well.
Bottom line for me is that the council has to weigh the costs against the benefits here, but it will be very hard to stop something like this that has been approved by the voters 4 times now.
And for all the conservative heartache about changing I-601, you would think that you all would line up behind the monorail and ‘THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE’ (/chares heston voice). Nah, that would take principle and the courage of your convictions.
My recollection is a little fuzzy now, but I seem to recall something in the original initiative that allowed the Monorail Project board to appoint its own members (i.e., themselves) instead of being elected. I suppose this had a noble purpose, i.e., keep Monorail opponents from running for board positions so they could sabotage the project — but man this proviso set off all my alarm bells and popped up all the red flags. That’s when I realized this thing was going to end up a fiasco.
David@7
The viaduct is not a nessisary road, an extention of the old OLD 99. If seattle wants to keep it let them pay to keep it, it goes nowhere that cannot be accesed from other roads (I-5).
chuck@16
If you think the viaduct is an unneccessary acessway to downtown in an already massivly overstressed road system, you really are ignorant.
I assume you wnt to funnel all that traffic through I-5 which is already terminally backed up, or maybe through the signalled surface streets? You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
Rabbit@12
I have a better idea, why dont you King County upscale assholes vote yourseves another state then you guys can have your utopia and leve the rest of this state the fuck alone (you can even keep the name if you want, we will think up another one)
Chuck, get busy on that initiative! Then we will find if Eastern Washington roads are at all “nessisary”.
Chuck @ 18 “(you can even keep the name if you want, we will think up another one)”
Hmm. this could make an intersting game! Come up with a name for the new state formally known as eastern WA.
How about : Leaveusfuckalonia
Go ahead, Chuck; every decade or so Eastern Washington floats the idea of breaking off with North Idaho (and maybe part of Western Montana or Northeast Oregon) and forming the State of Lincoln (capitol: Spokane). It always fizzles when they realize they’d have to give up their budget subsidies from Western Washington. But they’d get to keep cleaning up Hanford.
Goldy,
Oddly i’m almost ok w/ the monorail. I guess it is cuz the Sound transit thing is so disgusting (wasteful, useless) that Monorail seems like it does something. I’m not a fan of buses, and love to ride rails, trains, etc.
But Horn and I”m sure others are the same cowboys who screwed up the Commons project. They weave some fancy New Age almost story of the future, and then that premise was naive and reality is far worse. I’ll bet they have no clue what costs will be.
Horn’s just an opportunistic sob and many of the others too. So I guess I end up 51% on the “kill it” side.
Its really too bad a town w/ #1 transportation company and #1 software company in the world (boeing and microsft) cannot do anything interesting about Roads or Traffic. We have like zip. Even little things, like buses in Europe where the bus stops have actual LCD schedules linked to the bus. So at least if its late, you know what is going on.
And of course as you note, we’ve got viaduct and 520 coming at us…one of the 520 plans is to replace it with another 4 lane road, for $700mm or whatever. That’s stupid; replace it with some capacity, even if its car pool or bus lanes.
Viaduct feels like stupid idiot liberals with no financial sense are running that one. You guys need a cheap SOB to help you posture that. All we hear is Jean Godden or Brodeur types yapping about beautifying the water. Screw that, jam a road in there and be done w/ it
oops, found some information. Sorry for the messed up links, I hate html, and suck with it.
“Preliminary 2-Year Look for Fiscal Years 2002 – 2003”
Contributions Benefits Difference
1 Skagit 62.4 111.9 (49.5)
2 Kitsap 153.1 193.7 (40.7)
3 San Juan 21.3 57.5 (36.2)
4 Jefferson 15.1 38.2 (23.1)
5 Kittitas 12.8 33.1 (20.3)
6 Douglas 10.5 30.3 (19.9)
7 Grays Harbor 25.5 44.5 (19.0)
8 Grant 26.8 43.6 (16.8)
9 Stevens 13.1 29.5 (16.4)
10 Adams 7.2 23.3 (16.1)
11 Lincoln 4.7 19.3 (14.5)
12 Klickitat 7.6 21.4 (13.8)
13 Island 45.9 57.8 (11.9)
14 Okanogan 14.7 26.0 (11.4)
15 Ferry 2.0 11.2 (9.1)
16 Whatcom 64.4 73.3 (8.8)
17 Pacific 7.8 16.5 (8.7)
18 Wahkiakum 1.4 10.0 (8.6)
19 Lewis 27.8 34.5 (6.6)
20 Walla Walla 18.0 24.0 (6.0)
21 Garfield 1.1 5.5 (4.4)
22 Whitman 13.2 17.6 (4.4)
23 Skamania 3.2 6.7 (3.4)
24 Franklin 20.7 23.4 (2.8)
25 Columbia 1.9 4.0 (2.1)
26 Pend Oreille 4.3 6.0 (1.7)
27 Clallam 26.3 27.4 (1.1)
28 Asotin 7.7 8.6 (0.8)
29 Cowlitz 38.5 38.3 0.2
30 Snohomish 279.1 277.7 1.3
31 Chelan 28.8 26.9 2.0
32 Benton 57.0 54.8 2.2
33 Pierce 254.3 252.0 2.4
34 Mason 18.6 12.4 6.2
35 Clark 132.9 115.6 17.3
36 Thurston 86.1 56.6 29.6
37 Yakima 84.0 52.7 31.3
38 Spokane 167.9 136.4 31.5
39 King 921.6 667.4 254.2
Total 2,689.5 2,689.5 –
http://www.metrokc.gov/exec/ne.....ansrev.htm
So lets not have any more talk about the rest of the state funding king county. If you keep your money, we keep ours.
argh, all that formatting work and it messed it up anwyasy! Sorry!
also, I can’t type
windi, you did a fine job, still very obvious what the results are.
So, it seems Eastern Washington “leaveusfuckalonia” is sucking off the King County (and Western Wash.)teat?
Get that initiative rolling Chuckie! We would love to keep our own money! The only time I see “leaveusfuckalonia” is on the federal interstate, anyway.
Janet-
You mention something that had me wondering. Your comment about the “monofail” being fixed and not adaptable…of course (imagine the disruption if a fire like the one last year erupted on a main line!). But what got me thinking was the current fixed lines we utlize now. I mean I-5 thru from Boeing Field to Northgate and 520 from I-5 to, oh, Bellevue. All may as well be “fixed” they’re either all bridge decks or cut into the surrounding neighborhoods (vice versa really)or hillsides!
When I first moved here from Colorado some 20 years ago I was shocked at the lack of foesight displayed by the infrastructure planners. I’ve crossed this country on its highway system dozens of times, and were about as screwed as it gets. Most major metro roadways contained some sort of buffer to anticipate regional growth…not here! A two lane highway to connect the east-side and Seattle…STILL?!? That druken cluster that is the collector/distrubutor at Qwest field? Criss-crossing carpool lanes…OY! How about the newest example of shitty planning..the entire tribal diaster just north of Marysville, THAT SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
The “Monofail” as forward thinking as it may be (may have been) is, IMO, too little too late. My point is that we need a complete smack down, starting at the top. I think Mr. CYN-IRR laid it out pretty well in another post last night…
If we have a real transportation emergency, I would suggest the following:
1) Eliminate prevailing wage on all transportation projects.
2) Eliminate the 1 or 2% for the Arts.
3) Reduce all state employee salaries and benefit packages by 10%.
4) Impose a statewide spending freeze.
5) Freeze all state outside travel…starting with Gregoire’s European Vacation.
6) Repeal the Growth Management Act
That’s just for starters.
Enough already!! Declare a friggen emergency, before we loose more business (i.e., Boeing) due to these blunderheads and their drunken design and planning!
I did some work on a preliminary outreach study on the Monorail, which was funded some years ago by one of the only City Council members who wasn’t trying to kill the Monorail at the time. I chose to explore the westside alignment (as I called it at the time) because I do think there is real value to stand-alone intermediate capacity transit, particularly in the corridor west of I-5 that was not slated for mass transit.
While I have wavered back and forth on the Monorail through the years, I think there are too many obvious financial problems to allow this project to proceed.
The first, and most serious, broken promise was moving it from the middle of the street in existing rights of way over the curbs and sidewalks. Many of their problems stem (costs of land acquisition/issues with routing it down 2nd and through Seattle Center, etc) from this – and this is what happens when a mass transit project gets taken over by the “transit oriented development” crowd. We need transit that moves people as efficiently as possible, and then to figure out how new development fits in afterward (the Sound Transit light rail route through the Rainier Valley has similar issues – it became a project to gentrify a poor neighborhood rather than a way to move people regionally as quickly as possible).
I hate to say it, but being 20% over budget and 30% behind on revenue is not way to run a railroad. The real killer for me, though, is the acknowledgement that the length of time the vehicle tab tax is in place will double. If this isn’t an unacceptable broken promise to the voters, I just don’t know what is.
Thanks for your good work, Monorail supporters, but it’s time to pack it in.
Donna –
BWAAAHAHAHA
Leaveusthefuckaloina?!? Thats the best thing ive seen here yet!
There ay go Chuck, there’s your new state name. Get on that one…i’m sure it’ll fly with ole’ Jimbo the molester.
Brent@6–
BINGO!! You’ve got it.
The “deceitful” practices of WSDOT.
That is our problem.
We can never get a straightforward, honest answer.
Have you ever seen a WSDOT project come in below projections???
FUCK NO!!!!!!!
Goldy is getting pretty good at playing the fucking idiot.
Makes you think he is one!
Roger Rabbit@11
Repeal the Growth Management Act and allow a few years for rural counties to gear up and you may have a point.
To stick your tongue out at the rest of the state about not paying their way when you have them strangled with GMA is typical of you LEFTIST PINHEADS. Fuck you DON!!
Donnageddon@20
Leaveusfuckalonia!! That’s a good one.
And we’ll call Seattle ABSURDISTAN!!
cynical@31
’cause, of course, Okanogan county is DYING to explode into huge population numbers if only those damn seattlites would give ’em a chance. STUPID GROWTH MANAGEMENT!
Seriously, get a grip buddy.
Re #6
“Give us some accurate projections up front.”
I wonder whether you have any idea how long it takes and how much it costs to come up with accurate projections for one of a kind projects.
— mls
DamnageD@27–
OK…we’re on the same page on this one.
Get these LEFTIST PINHEADS to understand they can’t strangle the economies of rural counties and then demand they pay.
Seattle controls the state for now.
But once the traffic becomes totally unbearable (and it’s close), perhaps Seattle will reluctantly loosen their grip!
mls@34
Accurate projects are part of your job dumbass.
How much have we spent on “pipedream” project “visioning”???
And why does every major project seem to come out double, triplr or worse than your estimates???
CYN-IRR
Seattle or Olympia? Seems to me the focus needs to be SODO.
new game (I think!)
Each time irrelevant says “LEFTIST PINHEAD” you have to take a shot!
if its an old game, sorry :p
Sounds like a good game for the Drinking Lib crowd tonight!
Chuck @ 16
You’re fucking nuts, you know that? The Viaduct carries over 110,000 vehicles a day. If the Viaduct is shut down, this city will shut down.
Mr. Cyn-Irr, please provide (an) example(s) of how the GMA has strangles Leavusfuckalonia.
Thanks.
Windie @ 38 I would like to take a shot every time Mr Cyn-Irr says LEFTIST PINHEAD, but that guy moves pretty fast.
@ 36
I’ve a sneeking suspicion that these “estimates” are intentionally undercut to make them acceptable.
Could you imagine the backlash if home builders or general contractors pulled this shit!
There’d be HELL to pay…literally!
Mr. PINHEAD @ 31
“Repeal the Growth Management Act”
Your BIAW buddies would love that, wouldn’t they? So they can fuck up what’s left of rural King, Snohomish, and Pierce counties; knock down all the trees; and pave the Cascade foothills with hillside condos. Then western Washington will look like Rio de Janeiro.
Sweet Cyn @36
“Accurate projects are part of your job dumbass.”
Nah, I do software. We are trying to learn how to estimate from the construction guys. Their projections are much more accurate than ours.
RR @ 44 Yeah, I am sure Grant County is just dieing to build more suburbs and skyscrapers…. maybe a new Mall of America.
Mr. Cyn-Irr, Your BIAW payslip is showing
BREAKING NEWS – KLANSMAN FOUND GUILTY OF MANSLAUGHTER IN 1964 SLAYING OF CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS
@ 40
just wait…let ’em see how much they needed it when its gone!
Monorail way over budget . . . this is news?
Name for me one big goverment project that isn’t late, over budget, and under delivered. The monorail is yet another Seattle pipedream that will do absolutely nothing to relieve congestion. If anything, it’ll probably make it worse.
Donna@41–
1) The Western Washington Growth Management Hearings Board just overturned the designation of a second UGA in Jefferson County on appeal. This UGA would have allowed for major increases in tax base. Stifled.
2) GMA puts huge limitations on VIABLE land for commercial and industrial purposes in rural counties.
MANY businesses would love to move to rural communities for quality of life for employees. Very attractive. But they have been stopped due to caps on VIABLE land.
Ask the Farm Bureau how their members feel about GMA and the restrictions on their land. 1 home in 20 acres. Ridiculous setback requirements from rivers & streams.
When Washington adopts what is comparable to Oregon’s I-37, it will hopefully gut GMA and the stranglehold on outside the 1-5 corridor areas.
Given how close the monorail votes have been, and given the problems KC elections, I’m not confident that the last recall was actually defeated. Of course, Seattlites are hypocrites – they vote for the monorail, and then cheat on their car tabs. If you want the monostrosity, then pay for it.
When Washington adopts what is comparable to Oregon’s I-37, it will hopefully gut GMA and the stranglehold on outside the 1-5 corridor areas.
Yeah, so we can mow down what remain of Washington’s forests? To put up half-million dollar one-bedroom clapboard shacks within reaching distance of each other? No, thank you.
best thing I’ve learned from this blog is BIAW-as-bavarian-illuminati~
Secret masters of the Washington Republicans!
Mr. Cyn-Irr @ 49 Nice try dim-wit but that is Western Washington you clueless direction-challenged MORON!
The discussion is how GMA has hurt Eastern Washington.
Talking to you is like talking to an empty pez-dispenser
RR @ 46 Finally Mississippi catches up with the 1950’s.
Perhaps by 2050, the will enter the 20th century.
21st century
MLS @ 34 –
Ya know, it’s one thing if something winds up costing 5%, 10%, heck, even 25% more (but that’s stretching it), but when a proposal is put together for $350 million (Narrows Bridge), and the final bill we already know will exceed $850 million, SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!! Heck, $350 million was spent before they even broke ground!!
Or have we been misled by our representatives and the DOT as to what the ACTUAL estimate is? Why the fuck should we give them any money when they’ve shown no honesty or integrity?
As Goldy mentions, “Now we’re told that due to rising costs and lower revenues, the car tab will be needed until 2050… nearly twice the number of years originally estimated. Ouch.”
Don’t you see the trend? This is nothing new. It’s absolutely inexcusable to give them another dime until they show some accountability. That’s where the real “Ouch” will come in.
Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What’d I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That’s right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail’ softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud…
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You’ll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I’m on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it’s Springfield’s only choice…
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again…
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street’s still all cracked and broken…
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono… D’oh!
2 million people per year ride the monorail. As an AZ transplant , I know that one of the 1st things visitors want to do when they get to my house is to go ride the monorail and walk around Seattle spending lots of money. An improved monorail would increase this sort of free tax dollars from tourists. And ,for you Boeing fanatics, remember: air travel wordwide is dependent to a large extent on tourists, so increasing tourism helps Boeing ! So, in addition to improving our economy, the monorail indirectly helps Boeing.
Ignorant fucks, the whole lot of you. None of you realize exactly how you’re being had; not even Goldy. Mister X came closest, but fell furthest by chastizing Transit Oriented Development, followed by those who disdain fixed-route transit.
The kindest assessment of Seattle transportation planning philosophy is that “Old School” incompetence reigns supreme there. And of course, corruption cannot be ruled out.
Monorail is a viable and perfectly applicable technology. However, contrary to the assertions of Mister X, development aspects, existing and future, cannot be neglected. Rueful misapplication of route and station, intentional or otherwise, in the Greenline Monorail’s case will lead to failure, will produce low ridership, will actually increase traffic congestion!
“New School” transportation philosophy integrates various aspects of development into the planning. Should Ballard and West Seattle remain bedroom communities, development-wise, whether the monorail is built or not, their resident’s commuting and long-distance travel will grow beyond the monorail’s capacity, and leave it mostly empty in the reverse-commute direction and in the off-rush hours. Is this too fucking hard to understand, you fucking morons?
Thus development is restricted within the metropolitan region and Seattle remains the 500lb gorilla commanding the subservience of all its surrounding communities; NOT INCLUDING FUCKING EASTERN WASHINGTON, jerkasses! No mass transit system can serve this artificial travel demand, assholes. Car dealers are surely aware that the monorail and the light rail will fail, creating rock solid future car sales; as the only alternative the majority can rely upon for nearly all travel needs will be the car. Stupid assholes. Blame the fucking media. ‘They’ have the obligation of informing the public, but they derive a healthy portion of their income advertizing, wait for it, cars, assholes.
Mr. Cynical — America has regulated land use for over 150 years, for obvious reasons requiring no discussion. The point is, there’s no such thing doing whatever you want with your land and never has been – this freedom has never existed. No – you shouldn’t, can’t, don’t have a right to ignore the impact of your actions on your neighbors and the community as a whole. Although growth management laws are a recent development, they are merely an extension or expansion of existing land use controls, not a new form of heretofore unknown regulation. Our state’s growth management regulations reflect two things primarily: One, our state’s population is growing, and two, our state government made a policy decision — which I think is right and which I support — to prevent the unplanned and unmanaged urban sprawl that has proved disastrous elsewhere. The GMA does NOT impose a one-size-fits-all set of regulations on the entire state. Growth management is different in King County and Kittitas County, just as speed limits are different on freeways and residential streets. Growth management laws in some ways are analogous to traffic laws, though. What you do with your rural land in eastern King County does affect others just as surely as how fast you drive on any public highway or street, and you have no more right to do as you damn please with your land as you have to drive at any speed you please on the highway or street. If you don’t like it, tough. We’re not going to repeal speed limits on residential streets just because you feel like driving 60 mph past driveways where kids are playing. We’re not going to let you and your developer buddies do as you damn well please with this state’s land, either. You don’t have to like it. You do have to obey the laws. You do have the right to try to change the laws through the political process. I hope you fail, because what you want, what BIAW wants, and what developers want is not in the best interests of the majority of this state’s citizens.
Sirkulat, I would be interested in your opinion of us here.
Thanks in advance.
MoronicDonna@53–
That was a clear example of “RURAL” areas being fucked by GMA. Jefferson County is on the Peninsula…not the I-5 corridor.
SoreDickHurtz@51–
So you like to see “other people’s” property reverted to the “lowest and worst” use???? Ain’t that generous of you.
Herein lies the problem.
When the LEFTIST PINHEADS want other people’s property to be underutilized so they can enjoy it as they drive thru in their BMW’s with the top down, smoking and drinking latte’s , guess what???
PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Individual Property Right’s are the backbone of our Country.
People like the Dickster, RabbitPellets and the other LEFTIST PINHEADS live by the following code of unethics:
“What’s mine is mine…..but what’s yours is OURS”!!!
Downzone or restrict usage on an individual’s property….PAY FOR IT ASSHOLES!
Headless Lucy @ 58 I agree that the Monorail is a great tourist attraction. Hell, I was born in Seattle, and I still love to ride it.
But I don’t see it as a real congestion solution. I favor more convinient buses, maybe the PRT that David suggest (that looks cool and would bring in the tourists as well) and taxing gas (for non business uses) till the SUVs that litter the roads are only usefull as planters.
Mr. STOOOOPID @ 62 “That was a clear example of “RURAL†areas being fucked by GMA.” Perhaps. I haven’t studied that particular restriction, BUT it had nothing to do with what I was talking about and so it makes you look like a copmplete head-up-your-ass MORON!
Does the BIAW spend a lot of money on MORONS like you?
Seems an awful waste.
Just try to understand the fucking analysis. My opinion of the participants here has no relevance. Unless Seattle gets its transportation planning act together, politics will continue to be harshly divided and the consequences equally shared. I’d fire that bitch Joni Earl, and replace Mayor Nickels. Charlie Chang? Is he still around?
Re 82, Mr Cynuscongestion: How come PINHEADS have BMW’s, sip lattes, and generally just have more of the good things life has to offer than you do? AS the King of Siam said: ” IT is a PUZZLEMENT!”
Don @ 61: LOL
Sirkula @ 66 “My opinion of the participants here has no relevance”
But you seem to be very free with it!
The gas tax iniative is not about 9-1/2 cents, it is not even about a perceived out-of-control spending/lack of accountability, it is simply people outside of King County not wanting to fund anything within King County. Whatever pain in their lives HAS to be attributed to something, and without Communists to kick around anymore, they’ve turned their attention to the damned liberal elite, aka Seattle. This is a chance to screw Seattle, pure and simple. Hell, most of them assume they are even paying for the Monorail, and God knows what else. They’ll deny this, why it is nothing less than the noblist of conservative reasons of course, but it’s not too hard to read between their lines. If the gas tax called for Seattle to receive nothing, do you really think there would be an initiative?
Brent @ 56
“Heck, $350 million was spent before they even broke ground!!”
That’s my point. If it’s true, the original estimate should have been for the estimating, planning and designing.
“It’s absolutely inexcusable to give them another dime until they show some accountability.”
Accountability would incorporate the cost of not doing construction, of postponing construction and the cost of possible alternatives. All that costs money. Maybe it would be worthwhile to give them some planning money up front.
candra@70
read my post @ 23… They’ve never paid for Seattle, Puget Sound has always paid for the rest of the state.
It wicks me off to no end having them go on about it when its just… not… true!
MLS @ 71 –
Then why not say that it’s for planning? If that’s the case, they purposfully mislead the citizens of WA by saying it’s to build (in this case) a bridge knowing DAMN well that it won’t cover it.
We, as citizens, cannot allow for that continued misrepresentation. Or are we supposed to shrug our shoulders and allow them to lie to us time and time again?
It’s ludicrious for them to be allowed to continue their deceitful ways. I understand that planning and design cost money; you can’t just break ground and begin without a plan. But at some point, proposals are made, without the help of a house bill or referendum, to come up with designs. I’m no architect, but I just can’t go along with the notion of a $350 million bridge design.
They knew it’d cost more, but chose to turn their head and look the other way.
I find it sad that there is a tolerance for this type of behavior.
Brent @ 73
“I find it sad that there is a tolerance for this type of behavior.”
So do I, but I don’t know what to do about it. I see it all the time in private business. Whenever there’s a squeeze the first to get the axe are the planners. Some of the most successful software projects I’ve worked on would never have been funded had we or the sponsors known in advance how much they would cost.
Nowadays my first estimate is always a sort of guess at how long it will take to do the estimate.
As far as government agencies go, I know there used to be a lot more money for planning at both the State and Federal level than there is now. You are probably right about the over-optimistic projections and I agree that it shouldn’t have to be this way.
I am also skeptical about $350 million just for design. I suspect there were more deliverables than just a design. But maybe not– it might have involved software development to support the bridge construction.
Sirkulat @ 60 “Monorail is a viable and perfectly applicable technology. However, contrary to the assertions of Mister X, development aspects, existing and future, cannot be neglected. Rueful misapplication of route and station, intentional or otherwise, in the Greenline Monorail’s case will lead to failure, will produce low ridership, will actually increase traffic congestion!
“New School†transportation philosophy integrates various aspects of development into the planning. Should Ballard and West Seattle remain bedroom communities, development-wise, whether the monorail is built or not, their resident’s commuting and long-distance travel will grow beyond the monorail’s capacity, and leave it mostly empty in the reverse-commute direction and in the off-rush hours. Is this too fucking hard to understand, you fucking morons?”
You missed my point entirely. What I am saying is that the notion of TOD now reigns supreme over the transportation planning aspect of these proposed mass transit systems. Of course land use planning should be integrated with mass transit – the question is whether transit is viewed first as a way to meet existing and future travel demand or as a way to force the redevelopment of properties to higher densities. I believe that the Monorail, in deciding to move the system out of the middle of the street, did so in large part to encourage the redevelopment of existing properties adjacent to the proposed stations and the route (which was not consistent with the comparison made to voters with the existing 5th Ave Monorail) over sidewalks, etc.
I think this was dumb – not only does it increase the cost of the system, it lowers the mobility of the cars that remain (and I’m not one who thinks that cars can be wished away, unlike most Seattle land use planners and faux enviromentalists). In other words, instead of planning for transit oriented development that would follow a well-planned transportation system, we get a system that is about development first and transportation second.
In fact, even with the monorail (and Sound Transit light rail, for that matter), I agree that the prevailing land use pattern and regional transporation pattern will still leave many folks who have to drive cars (and this would be the case even if there were light rail across I-90 or 520, at least until many more systems than are now proposed were in place). You may even have a point regarding their projected ridership. But to say that the monorail will increase traffic congestion is also pure b.s.- unless it is used as a pretext to pump up the densities in places like W.Seattle and Ballard beyond what existing roadways can accomodate (and, by the way, I think this is probably the case, and if this were the point you had made, I would agree with it). While the fixed route mass transit systems now proposed do not reduce the overall level of congestion much, they will certainly slow its rate of growth.
And for those who think buses are the answer, I would respond that a bus stuck in traffic is a bus stuck in traffic, and that traffic will be considerably worse in 20 years no matter what we do. You want something that will make mass transit unattractive to suburbanites – that would be it.
You sound like Josh Feit at the Stranger – but repeating the mantra “smart growth” over and over doesn’t make it so.
BTW – Charlie Chong is happily retired.
Sirkulat @ 60 “Thus development is restricted within the metropolitan region and Seattle remains the 500lb gorilla commanding the subservience of all its surrounding communities; NOT INCLUDING FUCKING EASTERN WASHINGTON, jerkasses! No mass transit system can serve this artificial travel demand, assholes.”
Um, ever been to New York City? I’d say their transit system is sufficient to serve the “artificial travel demand” of their metro and suburban areas just fine (not that what is proposed here will, but don’t say that no system can do it, cuz it makes you sound even more ignorant than your needless profanity)
Lucy@67–
It is a bit of a puzzlement, isn’t it.
I drive a 12 year-old car and an 18 year-old car.
I drink coffee.
I don’t smoke…cigarettes or pot.
I enjoy investing my money in appreciable assets.
I enjoy helping young people who are willing to work hard…not hinder.
I believe in the adage “Give ’em a fishing pole and a helping hand” vs. “Give ’em a fish and a hand-out”.
I prefer to financially support the things I believe in with my money….not someone elses.
And LEFTIST PINHEADS are the problem..not the solution!!!
How’s that?
I remember how big a fight was put up over the World ‘s Fair and the Seattle Center back in the early 60’s.
Look at all the good that has come from that effort all these years later.
It’s called Vision.
Today these folks seem to only be interested in ME, MYSELF and I.
mls@71–
Thank you for confirming my every thought about how out of touch the WSDOT is with the taxpayers. Your words will certainly help garner more signatures on the I-912 petition and more YES votes when it gets on the ballot. Your attitude seems to be rather cavalier. Do they brainwash you PINHEADS to expect unlimited $$$ and no questioning? Do they teach you to immediately deflect from accountability for the $$ you have already squandered with no product to “think of the cost of not doing the work”?
That’s cute!
candrewb@70–
I agree there are many voters with a screw Seattle mentality.
Live with it.
However there are even more who have had it with runaway, no accountability bureaucracies like WSDOT. Time to reel them in, don’t you think?
mickh–@78–
Vision away……..WITH YOUR MONEY DUDE!!
re77, Mr Cynical: It’s an OK response but not gut-splittingly funny like when you called dj a nincompoop. You were really worked up about something that time.
Sweet Cyn @ 77
Wow! I’m a PINHEAD! Does that mean I owe Goldy a beer?
Donnageddon@20
I was thinking of more like lower puget sound to the east side. King and up can be their own state.
David@21
read 83
Mr X @ 75 And for those who think buses are the answer, I would respond that a bus stuck in traffic is a bus stuck in traffic, and that traffic will be considerably worse in 20 years no matter what we do. ”
Not if you raise gas taxes to $10/gallon it ain’t! And use the tax money to pay for mass tansit. None of these high profile high price strategies are gonna do a damn thing for the forseeable future. We need to get a real mass transit solution ASAP.
Chuck @ 83, Not so fast buddy. You eastern Wash folks are gonna have to keep you hay riding asses east of the mountains!
Roger Rabbit@40
Once again that is a Seattle issue, not a Tacoma issue, not a Roy issue, or even a Walla Walla issue, it is a SEATTLE issue.
Roger Rabbit@44
The trees are already being razed, all your precious growth management does is make sure the big guy gets to get the political clout ($$$$) so the local players will rubber stamp him for a contribution.
Donnageddon@86
I am not east, I am on your side of the mountains! Nice to have me as company isnt it!
Donnnageddon@85 “Not if you raise gas taxes to $10/gallon it ain’t! And use the tax money to pay for mass tansit.”
That’s realistic, especially given that we’re about to see a signature gathering record set for a referendum on a 9.5 cent (as opposed to dollar, let alone a ten dollar) gas tax increase. Pie in the sky thinking like that (or megaproject fetishism that supports spending $4.5 billion on two miles of tunnel for the Viaduct) is a recipe for gridlock.
And, believe it or not, I do think something ought to be done both about our mass transit system (or lack thereof) and our roads – both in the City and throughout the region. Elected officials and transit and/or highway planners lying to the public by overstating benefits and understating costs ain’t gonna get us there, though.
87, the town of Roy will be glad to know their extra 6 bucks will not be going to fund any Seattle road project.
79, call it whatever you want, it’s typical “bite the hand that feeds” syndrome pure and simple.
To those who say the monorail won’t ease congestion: Who cares? If you are stupid enough to be in a car in congestion in the first place, that’s your own problem. For those of us riding public transit, the monorail and the light rail trains will be a big improvement.
I have a better idea, figure out what you are going to build, figure out a timeline to build it, get your contractors together and figure out a locked cost (cost plus such as the military has gone to on many contracts) THEN go to the people with a package and say here, will you fund this item? You may be suprised at the support you get. If the WADOT was left out of it completely (until they were straightened out) you would really get support for a program like that.
Privatize the Viaduct and see how many bidders you get.
NONE that would fund a beautification of Seattle waterfront project so some other asshole can improve his view and property values.
Chuck at 89
Just goes to prove you can take the Chuck outta eastern WA, but you’ll never take the eastern WA outta Chuck.
HEE HAWWW
Donnageddon@95
I think you might fit in say as a Euphrata cop though.
Donna–@95
Why don’t you go over to Omak, stand in the middle of downtown and make fun of the locals. See what happens.
My guess is the best you could hope for is to be sodomized by a bull.
Mister X, Development determines (or trumps) transportation system design. Don’t use the word ‘density’ loosely. ‘Diversity’ or ‘economic diversity’, is more apt. In fact, density without diversity, increases travel demand. Like a sprawling suburb has little diversity as just housing, adding housing to increase density, increases the travel demand.
Were West Seattle and Ballard to diversify their economies, (developing more jobs, services, etc to complement their housing), the need for commuting and other long-distance travel is reduced by adding a mass transit line, monorail or otherwise. Via development, ridership is guaranteed more hours and in both directions of operation, and, commuting is reduced. A TOD is lot more than just building housing near transit.
New York City has horrific traffic. Even though its subway system is extensive and reliable, the traffic is proof that it is still insufficient. But the insufficiency is still more related to the development pattern. NYC, like Seattle, is the 500lb gorilla demanding subservience from its surrounding communities.
It’s like the 2nd Tacoma Narrows Bridge. The overwhelming traffic, and the ‘perceived need’ for the 2nd bridge was created by the development pattern that separated jobs/services/amenities separate from housing. The development pattern, left unchanged, will generate so much more traffic that a 3rd bridge will be necessary.
You see how that works? Ya wonder why road congestion just keeps getting worse? Answer: Old School planning philosophy and insiders who know and profit from the outcome. The people of the communities where the monorail is routed and stations located have no frickin idea what sort of development is coming their way. They have been left in the dark regarding that critical element of the decision-making by the planning community and the complicit media. Of all the hundreds if not thousands of individuals posting their viewpoint, frickin none of them come close to making this point. The process is being corrupted by insiders doing closed-door backroom deals. The chosen route is not nearly the best possible – and they know it. The planners want the line to fail.
Mr Cyn-Irr @ 97 Ouch! I never even got to my tracter-pulling, cousin-marrying, NASCAR-watching, Dirt-farming, one-stop-light ignoring, book-of-the-year reading, one-toothed, pig-fucking, book-burning, ignorant but proud jokes!
You can tell when you’re in a Republican county. Everybody in the phone book has the same last name.
Donnageddon@99
Shouldnt talk about Ranier like that…Oh no stoplight!
100
Yeah– kinda like you know your in a democratic county if everybody registered to vote have the same last name.
Rufus Foxworthy here:
If you use your nose piercing to punch out your ballot… you might be a democrat.
If you lost your voters registration at the welfare office… you might be a democrat.
If you’re a white Rep. honky who calls himself Rufus, you might be a rascist who’s too chickenshit to show his real colours.
Not bad, Br’er Rabbit, eh?
HL, I share your thoughts on RUFUS.
RUFUS @ 103–
That’s good stuff RUFUS.
How about this one–
After a full day of blaming Bush for your miserable fucking lives and poor choices and then you look in the mirror and all you see is mouth….You are a LEFTIST PINHEAD!
When every sentence you utter ends with ….”and the Alaskan Way Viaduct is gonna fall down tomorrow and kill thousands of people and it’s all the fault of the I-912 crowd”…..you are a LEFTIST PINHEAD!
Mr. Cynical@107
It is the same 695 the sky is going to fall crowd. Well 695 passed and by god the sky is still there!
If you ever voted for something before you didnt vote for it… you might be a pinhead.
If you live in a coffin… you maybe a democrat
More, “Tales of Irony” from the righties. Rightist ribaldry rips the big stinky wind…… Oops, I did it again!
RUFUS @ 109 If you want to make that Lame Joke even somewhat factual, you need to reverse it.
Sheese these Neo-Con Dumbshits cant even remember their propoganda correctly!
Lucy–@111
Hey, PULL MY FINGER!!!
IF you own the company that makes the Voting Machines and publically promise Bush will win in Ohio… You might be a facist dumbshit who spoke a little too openly.
If your democratic governor won their race by 129 votes after the third recount but you complain you presidential candidate was shafted in a state he lost by 120,000 votes… you just might be a democrat.
If you believe that Bush won Ohio by 120.000 votes you might be a neo-con puppet.
What are the Republican Governor of Ohio’s approval ratings? %17 you say?
Hmmm seems people are upset about having the election stolen from them!
17%… WOW !!!!!! That is as low as a fugative from law would draw!
Paper ballots. Paper ballots. Paper ballots. No more electronic voting machine bullshit.
I am for a true multimodal system, with the best mode for the corridor. Monorail is best for crossing the Duwamush, piggybacking on the West Seattle Bridge, and could also be better suited than Light Rail for running down Aurora.
Let me get this straight.
Ohio was exit polled as voting for Kerry.
The Man who owns the company promised that Ohio would go for Bush.
But somehow… somehow… Bush got more votes.
NBow the REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR of Ohio has an 17% approval rating!!!
Hmmm… somehow it is obvious that the votes that were cast in November do not reflect the votes coming from the machines owned by the man who promise3d Bush would win.
Hmmmmmm . Something is not right here.
Whoa Dannageddon– slow down.. your scaring the crowd.. You need to work on your delivery son.. kinda like this.
If your presidential campiagn promised to avenge losing by 300 votes in Florida in 2000 and then lost in 2004 by 300,000… you might be a democrat.
See how it works D
Lucy@104–
LMFAO!!!!!
RUFUS is black!!
Mr Cyn-Irr. “RUFUS is black!!”
Quiet! No need to scare the eastern Washingtonians!
Its funny how quickly the Righties on here wanna turn this into a sectional thing
and chuck-the-moron: Doesn’t really matter what side of the mountains are on. The rest of the state can’t survive without Pierce, King, and Snohomish counties. Spokane can maybe carry Stephens and Okanogan if they’re lucky…
windie@124
You dont understand, King county is the unwelcome one and we can live just fine without you.
This is a big reason the monorail will cost so much
http://www.lni.wa.gov/Prevaili.....1/co17.asp
Yikes. Back to topic: I like the monorail plan, but I think it just got too expensive. According to the P-I, the total cost including debt service is going to be $11 billion.
I know a 30-year mortgage can double the cost of a home, but this . . . this is five times the principal. Nuts to that. We can spend our money better.
David@127
That is what we are saying about these fucking bridges and such. The money is already there it just needs spent wisely. The 14 mile sound transit boondoggle is even about twice what it should cost.
Chuck, thanks for the link to the prevailing wage rates for King County. It looks like basic laborers get $32-33/hr and most skilled jobs are around $37-39/hr. Some folks get more (some electricians, plumbers and elevator mechanics get above $50/hr; divers earn $80/hr), and some get less (metal fabrication: $10-15/hr; telephone line construction: $15-30/hr; landscapers: $8.50-$11/hr).
So those rates seem way out of line to you? You want the state to pay workers on projects in King County less? Your crusade against the prevailing wage law is starting to seem more like a crusade against workers.
Chuck @ 128: “The money is already there”?
David@129
David this is not what the state pays its workers, this is what the state requires an independant contractor to pay his workers for the time that they work on a public project. And yes most on the scale are way out of line with the average that a civilian project would pay, by at least $10.00 per hour
David@130
Yes It simply needs used wisely.
Chuck @ 126:
Despite your fetish with workers receiving prevailing wage, that’s not the key to what’s making the monorail so expensive. The problem is that they are trying to build a project that costs more than their debt limit, with tax revenues that have come up short. So they are trying to squeeze by with high-interest junk bonds and not being able to pay off the project costs for another 45 years. If the monorail made sense at under $2 billion, it does NOT look smart at over $11 billion.
Chuck @ 132: no, no, please explain what you mean by “The money is already there.”
David@133
No David, if you cannot see that the prevailing wage is a big part of these cost over runs then you have to have a developmental disability. Are you likely to pay a person $40.00 per hour to shingle your house? Be real now, have a cup of coffee and wake up!
David@134
It is being pissed away on such things as prevailing wage. There are many other issues but that is a big one.
Chuck @ 131: But the prevailing wage is based on the average—the prevailing wage—that private contractors pay! Is your beef that it’s set using wages in the county’s largest city (Seattle) rather than some sleepy corner like Black Diamond? (I bet rates in Bellevue or Sammammish are even higher than Seattle).
Chuck: re: 128. 130, 132, 134, 136: What the hell does “The money is already there” mean? And why the heck are you avoiding the question?
David@137
Nope David that is not how it is set, it is set using overinflated union claims. By the way you still havent adressed what buisiness the state has telling a private contractor what to pay his (her) people?
David@138
It is called tighten the proverbial belt and save money.
chuck@125
Its funny how you keep thinning down the area that is ‘bad’
first it was western WA, then it was NW Washington, now its just King Co.?
I’m sure those Everett natives are cursing those ‘damn Covington democrats’ every day.
And hey! Bellingham is a conservative hotbed!
Your point was flawed to start, and the fact remains: The rest of the state needs the money that Puget sound generates. They simply can’t afford anything without it.
So take your regionalist rabblerousing somewhere people are stupid enough to believe it, ‘kay?
windie@141
Perhaps you need to brush up on your reading skills, I was referring to King County all along, let them become their own state and live in their utopia and the rest of this state will fare just fine.
windie@141
Where the hell did you get western Washington out of it?
$11 billion for the monorail? Five times the original principal amount to pay off the bonds, when most public works projects are only twice the original principal?
I say SCRAP THE MONORAIL! And scrap the gas tax increase as well.
Use the car tab revenue from Seattle to replace the Alaskan Way viaduct. That will cost $4 billion, and add another $4 billion for interest on the bonds. Since the car tab revenue will support $11 billion in monorail debt service payments, it can just as easily support $8 billion in Alaskan Way debt service payments.
Everything they say always costs millions to billions more. Sound Transit, Monorail, Narrows Bridge, etc. At which point do we stop giving them money until they can come to us with a little honesty?
chuck@141: Oh please, you said… bah forget it.
I’ll admit however that *you* never said ‘western washington’ in this thread. We were all reacting to the same old folderol that we’ve heard so many times. Your very small deviation was barely noticable, if understandable considering the current stupid Republican Propaganda.
Answer my question tho: Do you really believe that Pierce, Snohomish, and Whatcom counties hate King so much that they want to kick us out?
Northwestern Washington is fairly unified, and forms the Core of the state’s economy. You guys (wherever you claim to live) can’t make it without us.
windie@146
Not a matter of kicking you out, you guys should be pushing it yourselves. That way you could live your utopia with all of your tax money and not have to drag us less than enlightened ones around with you.
http://www.researchcouncil.org.....WagePB.htm
Chuck, maybe we like washington- all of it.
We don’t fall for this ‘divide and conquer’ crap. We like a culturally and physically diverse state.
You know what? I grew up in southern King county. The only other place I’ve ever lived is in Portland.
If I see someone from Spokane, or from Chewelah, or from Omak, I naturally like them. You know why?
Because they’re fellow Washingtonians. I wouldn’t want to change that.
I don’t begrudge them the excess money we put out. It’s irksome when people talk about us taking money, but ‘s also not necessarily their fault that they’ve been sold a lie.
I love Washington state in its entirity. Its sad that you’ve bought into the lies that try to control us by dividing us.
Chuck @ 139: That (what I said @ 137) most certainly is how the prevailing wages are determined; that’s what the law says. If the prevailing wage is a wage that unions have negotiated with private contractors, then that’s what it is.
And the state can’t tell a private contractor what to pay his/her people; but if they’re paid less, the state doesn’t have to give them any work, either.
Richard Pope @ 144: The state is already going to pay the basic replacement cost of the viaduct, which I recall is over $2 billion. So Seattle’s car tab tax would only have to pay the difference between the cost of a viaduct and a tunnel. Easy. Maybe then we could look at that PRT network and actually help people get around without getting stuck in traffic…
Okay, “easy” is not the right word. But it’s doable.
Richard Pope says scrap the monorail and put $4 billion into the viaduct project. Yeah right. None of you clowns understand how land-use and development considerations dispell this idea.
The People’s Waterfront Coalition is arguing that a tunnel or elevated replacement is unecessary. They’re correct. The heavy traffic on the viaduct can be reduced to that end. Traffic can be redirected to other highways and surface streets. In fact, unless steps are taken to reduce travel demand, traffic will grow beyond the capacity of any replacement and all other highway corridors. In order to reduce travel demand, regional rapid transit combined with carefully directed regional development is absolutely necessary.
So Mr Pope, like all the other clowns on this string, you too have no idea what you’re talking about. Your idea will make matters worse.
Seattle is some kind of Bermuda Triangle for illogic. Maybe Starbucks puts something in the coffee.
Sirkulat: YOu seem to have some real information, doesn’t that render the nasty attitude unneccesary?
And another thing, people. PRT is impossible. Ain’t gonna happen. You want PRT? Watch “The Incredibles”. Cartoon animation is the only honest virtual reality. Loved that PRT roundtable. Anymore talk about PRT and I’m putting my hands over my ears and going, “I can’t hear you. I can’t hear you. Ya ya ya, Nah nah Nah”.
Windie Windie Windie. Why do I bother when answers like yours show that so many are either not interested or don’t get it. Don’t you understand what I’m saying? Is what I’m saying just not registering with you? Imagine, if replacing the viaduct isn’t necessary, or in fact replacing it actually worsens the situation, what the hell has my use of frickin explicatives got to do with it? Seattle is so screwed.
sir, sir, sir…
Did I say anything about that situation at all?
I guess I said we need more than one accessway into seattle.
I’m too ignorant to debate the issue, so I don’t.
You know alot, I dunno why you’re so hostile. Its like I know why some of the people on here come off so nasty. You..? I dunno you just came on with a chip outta what seems like nowhere.
David@150
You have slipped a cog if you see that as right. The states only issue when dealing with a contractor should be accepting the lowest bid and making sure the contractor complies with the parameters of the contract as well as L&I-OSHA requirements.
Prevailing wage is an L&I requirement, doofus.
Sirkulat @ 153: Yes, reducing travel demand—or at least slowing its growth—is important if we want our economy to keep functioning without building more roads as our population goes up. However:
· The dirty truth of public transportation is that it’s so slow and inconvenient (wait for the bus, stop every few blocks, change buses, sit next to a smelly person) that most people won’t take it until/unless general traffic becomes totally miserable.
· People who want to make general traffic totally miserable so that more people will take public transit have their heads screwed on backward. It’s another case of ideology trumping the overall goal of moving more people more quickly. But this seems to be disturbingly common among wannabe transportation “experts” like the People’s Waterfront Coalition.
· Claiming that “The heavy traffic on the viaduct can be reduced” and “Traffic can be redirected” is ignorant of actual traffic patterns (including freight traffic) and road capacities, and is part of the backward thinking I just described. It mostly assumes that if you take away the viaduct, the cars will disappear. (And it assumes that that’s a good thing.)
· Arguing that traffic will grow beyond our freeway capacity even if we expand our roads does not logically lead to the conclusion that we should freeze or reduce our freeway capacity! If new roads will fill up, that means people want to drive on them, because they want to get places faster and get more things done. And that drives our economy. Shrink our road system, and you just make people sit in more traffic. Who thinks that’s a teriffic plan?
· If our goal is not to create gridlock, there are only a few ways we’re going to get people to leave their cars at home. Making gasoline ridiculously expensive would work, but that’s out of the question. Encouraging people to live close to where they work is a great idea, but this isn’t a perfect world. The only other solution is to make public transit more appealing, fast and convenient—and that’s where PRT comes in. (You can cover your ears now, Sirkulat, while the rest of us look into the possibilities for making things better).
Oh wow, Windie. It’s just like so, um, whatever, ya know? More accessways? Ommm! You are sooo nasty. Nasty nasty nasty.
I’m just waiting to see the Viaduct plan that will undoubtedly so A) there’s no expansion room, and B) all they add is a commuter lane.
Why is it never any consideration to look past the nose and into the future and build (*GASP*) TWO additional lanes? I know that’s a preposterous thought, but c’mon. They’ll be lobbying for another Narrows Bridge as soon as the new one is done, since they were a billion dollars foolish not to make it 4 lanes each way…
sirkulat:
*slap*
PRT is just plain silly. That’s all you need to know, folks. It’s like putting monorail up on every transit corridor, with huge switches at junctions, run tiny 4-8 person cars to stations on side tracks. The cost would be enormous, the service too infrequent to fill the demand, the routes too complicated to be reliable. The cars would still be susceptable to David’s ‘undesire-ables’.
I believe monorail can work, but the existing plan is more than just overpriced, its route and station design is fundamentally flawed – the bigger question left unanswered by responsible Seattle agencies and media.
Using the same justifications for opposing the current monorail plan, an argument can be framed that supports not replacing the Alaskan Way Viaduct. The same argument predicts that the Express Lanes of I-5 North can be converted to light rail.
We drive too much, too far, for too many purposes. Period. There is no replacement fuel for petroleum. There is no way to manage current nor future growth of traffic. The only course of action is to restructure our economies to be less dependent upon commuting and long-distance travel.
A main portion of that restructuring is regional rapid transit like monorail and light rail, and bus lines. Because, more of our basic needs must be met closer to home, this economic restructuring incorporates development that adds lacking elements currently met by long-distance travel. In time, people will have less need for driving as more needs are met nearby, even within walking and bicycling distances. And more needs now met only by long-distance travel can be met via transit.
David. Do yourself a favor and drop PRT. It ain’t gonna happen.
Look Windie. I’m just tired of this psuedo debate here. Your complaints about my poor language misses the point, like whatever. Seattlers are being robbed and it makes me angry. The city is turning into a dump. The upper-class authorities, some of whom surely know better, are blithely making promises they can’t keep. They are lying to you, to all of us. Thanks for the slap. I needed that.
Ok, I hear what you’re saying. And thanks for the context, I’m attention deprived sometimes.
And believe it or not, I do feel your pain.
And sorry ;p
“PRT is just plain silly. . . . It’s like putting monorail up on every transit corridor, with huge switches at junctions, run tiny 4-8 person cars to stations on side tracks. The cost would be enormous, the service too infrequent to fill the demand, the routes too complicated to be reliable.”
Well, at least this proves you don’t know what you’re talking about. Some things you should know about PRT:
· Tiny, light (and cheap) 3-4 person cars means thin, light (and cheap) guideways; nothing has to support the weight of a train (let alone two trains).
· There are no “huge switches at junctions,” just Y-forks in the track; each car uses a simple switching mechanism to follow the left or the right fork. Requires no bulky track switch at all.
· Yes, stations are on side tracks (hey, you got one right!), so when you are going from point A to point G you skip right by points B, C, D, E, and F. Quick and direct.
· There is no scheduled service at all; this is probably the hardest thing for transit-heads to wrap their minds around. It’s an on-demand service—you get into a waiting car, enter your destination and go, and another empty car pulls in. No long waits at the station! You don’t have to wait with a bunch of other people for a big bus or train to come along and pick up everyone at once. It’s personal rapid transit.
· The routes are not complicated; it’s hard to see how they would be. You could look at a map of the system and follow the guideways with your finger from your start point to your end point, anywhere on the network. (And again, you skip the intermediate stations.) Anyway, the whole system is computer-controlled, so you don’t have to worry about how to get there.
PRT is a lot closer than you think, and I think you’ll like it.
“We drive too much, too far, for too many purposes. Period. . . . The only course of action is to restructure our economies to be less dependent upon commuting and long-distance travel. . . . more of our basic needs must be met closer to home . . . . In time, people will have less need for driving as more needs are met nearby, even within walking and bicycling distances. And more needs now met only by long-distance travel can be met via transit.”
I agree.
Hmm. The Monorail folks just sent out an e-mail stating that while the $11 billion figure is correct, the present value of that amount in 2005 dollars is . . . $2 billion. So the $2 billion figure includes future interest payments (at their discounted future value)? Arrrrgh. What’s the price of this project itself if we could pay for it right now, in cash, no interest?
David @ 160 – well said (though I have reservations about the real feasibilty of PRT)
Sirkulat @ everywhere – it’s too bad a self-styled progressive is making the Rethugs on this board seem like models of civility. You are a classic example of a little knowledge (in your case, the current mantra of “smart growth/cars are intrinsically evil/folks need to live the way us right thinking people say they should”) is a dangerous thing.
Been to Manhattan, London, or Berlin? Notice that they have mature complete functioning transit systems AND a ton of cars?
Mr. X@170–
Other cities have complete functioning transit systems because they have smart people designing them. Our problems is we have a bunch of morons wasting hundreds of millions of dollars planning, re-planning and re-re-planning….incapable of actually coming up with something viable, convincing folks to buy in and getting it built. And you have these Seattle “Progressives” who condone endless, costly process like it’s some kind of a fucking game. These LEFTIST PINHEADS all have to “be heard” and have every lameass bell and whistle in their plan that never gets done.
When they FINALLY get a plan done, then they worry about the cost. They do it backasswards. If Mr. X designs a $2 million house and it’s perfect in every detail but then goes to the bank and they tell him he can only borrow $100,000, what is the $2 million house plan worth. FUCKING NOTHING!!!!! But it sure was a fun (and costly) exercise for the LEFTIST PINHEADS.
You LEFTIST PINHEADS deserve your fucking miserable traffic jams. If it’s such an emergency, cut other stuff. Consolidate and privatize everything, INCLUDING these capital projects. Set up a toll system you fucking morons!!
LEFTIST PINHEADS==You give poop a bad name!!!
Sirkulat, given Cynical’s really clever response, I 1/2 way apologize.
Cynical – who do you think designed the miserable traffic jams on the Eastside (hint – it wasn’t LEFTIST PINHEADS).
Too bad stupidity isn’t painful…
Mr Cyn-Irr @ 171…. You have finally lost your mind completely!
The “other cities” with the “complete funtioning mass tranist systems are filleed with soci*alists and left wing Democrats!
If you only had the ability to follow your own initial comments you could step away from the dark side and into the light of the enlightened world of progressive thought!
You were almost there and then your right wing programming kicked in, and you went back into the evil shadows.
David@159
No doofus, prevailing wage is an RCW one that should be eliminated.
Chapter 39.12 RCW
PREVAILING WAGES ON PUBLIC WORKS
Chuck, what part of workers getting a prevailing wage are you against? What are you one of those assholes living off a trust fund or something?
Cynical,
Just so you know, I actually agree with the germ of a point you have – which is that the Nickels/WASHDOT/Vulcan axis doing the planning for the Viaduct are squandering millions on a gold-plated plan that will likely never be funded and that they should be basing their planning on the available resources.
As it happens – I have testified at public hearings that the way they are approaching this is in the same way that if I said, well, Mom needs to fix her broken sink, and since I’m already doing that, and since nothing is too good for Mom (or our downtown waterfront, as the analogy goes), it’s marble floors and polished brass for her, and the cost be damned.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, I suppose. Would only that Cynical (or is that Mr. Irrelevent?) could approach that success rate.
You know the number one question republicans ask?
“Mom, if you and dad get a divorce will you still be brother and sister?”
HE HE
Scott@177
The most asked question by democrats is: Mommy were you there when I was born?
Donnageddon@175
A roofer makes more than a teacher, a Boeing engineer, a policeman, the list goes on. Use your fucking head…$40.00 per hour to hammer shingles.
Chuck, use your fucking head for more than a place to put your hat on!
“$40.00 per hour to hammer shingles”
If hammering shingles on a roof were so fucking easy everyone would do it , you DIPSHIT!
And Chuck, you are so obviously living off a trust fund you have no idea what real value is! A Boeing engineer earning (on average) less than @$40/hr… are you from Mars?
repeating 180 for truth.
If you think a roofer (way more than just hammering shingles btw) doesn’t earn their money, I strongly suggest that you try it for a summer… especially a hot summer.
I have a funny feeling that you’d change your mind… *if* you were capable of the work.
I know I’m not.
Donnageddon@180
I have hammered shingles DIPSHIT! And it shouldnt pay $40.00 per hour.
Donnageddon@181
No I am from right here, and used to work for the lazy B, check into it! By the way where can I get into that trust fund that I am supposed to be living off of?
windie@182
Hammered many a shingle in my day.
windie@182
By the way I have also hot mopped, built the entire roof rafters and all, as well as put down torch down, so dont even try to tell me how asy or hard it is.
Chuck @ 184 “No I am from right here, and used to work for the lazy B, check into it!”
Used to work is worth spit. My brother is an Engineer at Boeing, and you my dear deluded friend, are completely uttrerly and totally FULL OF SHIT!
Donnageddon@187
Your brother is not a production engineer, and no I am not full of shit. Most Boeing engineers are production engineers on the shop floor making less than $40,000.00 per year salaried.
And Chuckie, since you seem to have experience at “hammering shingles” what do you think is a good prevailing wage?
And what is the prevailing wage for an executive at Boeing?
Please take your time to come back to reality, and remember that prices have gone up since you did a day’s worth of labour.
Donnageddon@189
You miss the whole point, we dont need a prevailing wage, let the private contractor hire his own people for whatever they are willing to work for. By the way it wasnt as long ago as you think since I have done a days worth of labor. By the way, a Boeing executive gets paid what he and Boeing come to agreement on. There is no union negotiating for him, there is no state RCW dictating how much he gets paid, and an executive for Boeing by and large gets paid rather handsomly (engineers arent executives at Boeing contrary to what your brother told you)
Mister X. I am always careful to make statements like, “In time people will have less need for driving as more needs can be met nearby, even within walking and bicycling distances”. This is not an example of ‘little knowledge’ ranting. The amount of driving must be reduced. Driving need not be entirely eliminated.
Urban/suburban transportation systems consist of 4 modes: cars/trucks, walking, mass transit, bicycling. The impediment that cars have upon the other modes amounts to a Constitutional Inequity. (Take that one to your lawyer friends and mention dollars). Furthermore, in order for all modes to function, land-use and development pattern and scale must include specific infrastructure and design for each.
The best explanation for the failure of extensive transit systems to manage traffic, is the imbalance of development patterns between central city and economically dysfunctional suburbs – the 500lb gorilla demanding subservience of their surrounding communities syndrome.
New Urbanism began by prescribing economic balance within single districts. In order to correct any of New Urbanism’s shortcomings, (gentrification, market-driven costs), balance must occur within entire metropolitian regions. It’s completely logical and desirable. Regional rapid transit like monorail and light rail can best achieve this goal, but development must not be restricted to the overbuilt downtown.
Chuck… (it is becoming pointless to even discuss anything with you, but I will try again)
OK. DO you know what the words “Prevailing” and “wage” mean? And why is your non-working ass against them?
Chuck @ 190 QUICK show me where I stated that “engineers arent executives at Boeing contrary to what your brother told you)”
Your credibility depends on this!!!
Donnageddon@192
Well versed on the meaning of both words, but what is being discussed is a law, a state RCW that is passe (not needed for you). The law needs repealed so we can move forward and complete necisary projects. The law is as follows:
http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/inde.....pter=39.12
Can I help educate you any more or have you got it yet?
QUick Chuck you are almost out of time… where did I state engineers are executives!!!
GO boy fetch!
Chuck, you are not answering any wuestions posed to you. Do you actually think you are “educating” anyone?
Why are you against people earning the prevailing wage?
Donnageddon@196
I think I have adressed everything that you have brought up, unless you want to stay regressed in kintergarden mode and pretend I havent.
Donnageddon@196
Are you honestly going to pay a man $40.00 to roof your house? If so you will never understand. When the state hires a carpenter or roofer (or any other tradesman) to fix state property (also read as my property) I expect a fair wage to be paid by the contractor, I expect the contractor to negotiate this pay with his men, but above all I want my tax dollars to be put to the best available use. Paying exorbant amounts to people defeats this purpose. It just occured to me, you must be on the state teat!
DAMMIT CHUCK!!! You said @ 190 “(engineers arent executives at Boeing contrary to what your brother told you)”
Now, little man, it is your obligation to post WHERE I stated that my brother told me that engineers are executives.
If you cannot do that, or admit that you are lying, then you have absolutely NO CREDIBILITY for anything you have to say.
That is the way it works amongst adults, Chuck. You back up what you have said with facts, or you get treated like a fibbing child.\
Understand?
Sirk @ 191
You made a great point in commenting about alternative modes of transportation. I’m going to focus on one item near and dear to me…biking. Now, I’d first like to say that in King Co, the pedestrian zones SUCK! This area is about as foot UN-friendly as I’ve seen anywhere in the country. That said; I spent the better part of the last 10 years commuting by bike. Upwards of 30 miles a day! Rain, snow or blazing sun I was out there. What did it do for me?
I was in the greatest shape in my life!
Stress free mobility
The savings in money is amazing -no gas, insurance, etc.
Maintenance was done in my living room!!!
I was able to beat some co-workers to work (they DROVE)!
None of the above (except the last point) can a car provide. But there was a down side…of course!
No long trips
No passengers
SEATTLE DRIVERS ARE INSANE!!! Nearest to suicide you can get
The rain…OY!
Groceries, UG
Anyways, what I’m trying to say is that the Seattle area biking as a primary means of transportation is truly for the insane. It’s dangerous due to POOR PLANING of the roadways, sidewalks and intersections…which is likely a good reason most folks wont bother walking or biking distances. The distain drivers’ show to those who ride is frightening. And the maintenance of the roadways makes for an even greater obstacle for those who do ride.
If this city were really interested in reducing the auto congestion issue, addressing these issues would be a great place to begin…IMO.
Who needs it?
Donnageddon@199
OK back to K-1 for you, I said prevailing wage for a roofer was more than an engineer at Boeing, you then said that your brother was a Boeing engineer and made more than $40.00 per hour (very very unlikely) you then asked me how much a Boeing executive made, I presumed you were speaking of your “engineer” brother and thought you falsley thought an engineer was an executive at Boeing…simple enough for you? This is really the way I used to have to break things down for my kids when they were in kintergarden.
Chuck, do you lie to your children and then refuse to own up to it? DO you presume what they said, even though you were obvioulsy wrong and then spend two hours gaining the courage to give a lame excuse?
Really if you want to have a discussion with adults, you will never get away with it.
And you are obviously out of touch with prevailing wages, and what is a living wage.
You are clearly living in a different time period.
Donnageddon@203
Hit a nerve did I? you siphon instead of contribute to the state coffers dont you? Ill bet you rent versus bought your house. Well guess what the true AVERAGE wage of a roofer is NOT $40.00 per hour in this state or any other.
Donna–
Bikers have not paid their fair share for all the bike trails.
I like biking too…but we need to pay somehow.
I’ll bet if we have to pay for all future trails and maintenance, we probably wouldn’t want to pay prevailing wage for someone preparing & paving a trail, huh??
That said….once in awhile you act like your blood is not circulating to your brain. Could it be your bike helmet is too tight??? Do you post with a child’s bike helmet on?? Just curious.
By the way for your information the TOP HOURLY union wage at the top step of his pay at Boeing (grade 12 at the 12th and final step) is $33.00 per hour.
CYN-IRR
Are you confusing me, DamnageD, with Donnageddon?
CYN-IRR
wait a sec…
What do you mean bikers “haven’t paid their fair share for all the bike trails”? I was under the impression that the tax structure allocated monies into those coffers. I’m not going to pretend that I know what taxes do this, but i’d sure hope its not coming out of that transportation budget…or it would fully explain WHY Seattle motorists have such a difficult time sharing the road way with bikers!
On the other hand, I do recall some tiem past the idea was tossed around to charge a licence fee for bikes to pay for some sort of project. I’d have no issue with that…seems fair to me (as long as that’s what its used for)!
Y’know, Chuck, our law is a pretty good one. It doesn’t require government to hire contractors paying union wages. It sets the standard at the prevailing private-sector wage for each type of worker, by county. “Prevailing” as in most common, by hours worked. (How else would you calculate it?)
You’re just peeved that in King County, private contractors generally have agreed to pay union wages, so those rates turn out to be the prevailing wage.
Would public construction projects be bid a little cheaper (10% or so) if the government always hired contractors who paid their workers the lowest wages, instead of the prevailing wage in that county? Probably. But then you’d end up getting lower quality work, too (who do you think you’re going to hire if you pay as little as possible?) and that might end up costing more in the long run.
Bottom line: by setting standard wage rates for government-hired contractors, the government can choose among bidders on an even quality and cost footing; it avoids creating a “race to the bottom” for paying the workers who actually get the job done.
David@209
You are wrong, I am not concearned in the least with what a contractor chooses to pay his (her) people. If a contactor negotiates with his employees and gets triple union wages, that is fine with me, but the state has no buisiness in it at all. As a matter of fact your union wage requirement thought is equally as stupid an idea! As far as your savings percent, try again as the state of Florida is realising 30-40% savings (after elimination of prevailing wage) with better quality work and fewer cost overuns. Money doesnt buy quality, our public schools should show you that.
David@209
By the way when the state buys a fleet of cars they dont require the manufacturer to pay its employees prevailing wage and if they did the car would be of the same quality. Same with brick makers, prevailing wage is there for the “brother in law” factor (graft in government)
I think chuck has just bought so deeply into the rhetoric, that he can’t function rationally when he hears the words “King County.” He just sees red and charges like a wounded bull.
Chuck: liar.
Here’s what the Washington Research Council (which you cited) had to say in 1999 about Florida and the overall savings from eliminating prevailing wage laws:
“In 1978, for instance, a Florida State School Board Association survey found that during the previous four years, during which Florida school construction had been exempted from prevailing wages, taxpayers saved about 15 percent on total construction costs.
Much the same thing was found in Ohio 10 years later. In 1998, Ohio’s Legislative Budget Office (LBO) issued a first-year report on the 1997 prevailing-wage law exemption for school construction and renovation projects. It said that based on surveys completed by contractors, school construction savings averaging 10.2 percent were possible.”
Nowhere does their reports say anything about “better quality work and fewer cost overuns”; I’m going to go out on a limb and say you made it up.
“Based on a survey of Spokane-area contractors, the Research Council estimates that school districts would save 12.7 percent of construction costs were the Washington law repealed.”
That’s pretty close to the 10% figure I gave. What’s your response to the rest of my argument for hiring contractors (and comparing their bids) on a level playing field?
I prefer going to the source, my info came from a town meeting in Santa Rosa Beach FL (my father owns property in Florida) with representative Sandra Adams, Sandra.
Hmm, you’ll understand if I trust actual surveys to your unverifiable, anecdotal, third-hand information. Not that your figures make any sense anyway. 30-40% savings?? Labor costs only account for about a quarter or a third of total project costs; to get the savings you’re talking about, labor costs would have to go to zero.
Why don’t we settle this by turning to an actual scientific study of the effect of prevailing wage laws on construction costs?
Let me quote the important bit for you:
“while public projects were significantly more expensive than similar private projects, this was true in both prevailing wage law states and non-prevailing wage law states. Consequently, the higher costs of public projects could not be attributed to the presence of prevailing wage laws. In fact, the estimated effect of prevailing wage laws, controlling for other factors, including differences in the type of ownership, was not statistically different from zero.” (emphasis added)
Thanks, Chuck, I wouldn’t have found this if you hadn’t challenged my numbers.
“These are just a sampling of the many projects that were built during the 2004 construction season to improve Washington’s state highways and Interstate freeways. From January through September 2004, WSDOT and its contractors launched 114 highway construction projects. These represent $238,973,190 in winning contractor’s bids”
This statement is verbatum from WSDOT:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Highlights/2004/
Now even accepting your lowball savings of 10% by elimination of prevailing wage, that gives 23,000,000 towards your bridge and viaduct.
Aditionally I do in fact read as well
http://www.ocpathink.org/ViewP.....asp?ID=430
Y’know, Chuck, I’m still inclined to believe the scientific study more than that editorial full of anecdotes.
My favorite bit from your article: “Early this year, the Washington Research Council (www.researchcouncil.org) released an extensive report showing that schools would save 12.7 percent on construction costs if prevailing wage laws were repealed.” Funny, the Washington Research Council said their conclusion was just based on an informal survey of contractors in the Spokane area. The article puffs it up; it’s hype.
A couple of other points:
· if wages under prevailing wage laws are higher, but union labor has higher productivity than non-union labor, higher wages may not increase total costs.
· if union wages are the prevailing wage for a given type of worker in a county, what do you consider a “market wage”? You don’t think unions are part of the marketplace, with enough leverage to demand good wages? (Why don’t you just say “non-union,” if that’s what you want?)
· if there’s actually fraud in the wage survey forms, I encourage you to find it and publicize it. The prevailing wage should actually be the prevailing wage, not an artificially inflated number. But I imagine if you had evidence of that kind of fraud, you’d be hollering about it.
I have an idea, why dont we suspend prevailing wage laws for a mere 3 years, if no improvement is noted then re apply the RCW.
A new statement from the Seattle Monorail folks:
The headline number of “$11 Billion” to deliver the Monorail is in future dollars. The interest cost of the monorail is closer to $1.9 billion in today’s dollars. The reason that our interest cost is more than the interest costs of other projects being used for comparison is that the bulk of the Green Line interest will likely be paid between 2040 and 2050 when a dollar is projected to be worth 10 to 15 cents.
The role of inflation
One important ingredient in this discussion is to make sure that we are comparing the same things. The current discussion is not comparing an “apple to an apple” — it is more like comparing an apple to a Caesar salad. That is because comparing the value of a dollar today to a dollar in 40 years is misleading.
In order to understand the impact of inflation on the interest payments 40 years from now, it is helpful to consider some of these prices from 1965.
In today’s dollars, the interest cost for the Green Line is estimated to be approximately $1.9 billion.
David@219
$21,000 per INCH!
Damn, Chuck, your math sucks.
Total system length = ~ 14 miles
14 miles = exactly 887,040 inches (14 * 5,280 * 12)
Total cost (stations, track, trains, bridges, land, everything) = ~ $2,000,000,000
$2,000,000,000 / 887,040 inches = $2,250 per inch.
(Multiply by 2 to include financing costs in 2005 dollars, or by 5-6 to include financing costs in year-of-expenditure dollars.)
David@221
“In all, payments would total $11.4 billion, including interest.”>>>
Might want to reasess your math David.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....il24m.html
My math is 100% correct, Chuck. . . . That’s why I show my work.
(And as I said above, multiply by 5-6 to include financing costs in year-of-expenditure dollars. $11,400,000,000 / 887,040 inches = $12,850 per inch, or $2,250 * 5.7.)
Your figure is flat-out wrong, and your refusal to admit it when the numbers are right in front of you just costs you credibility. (Perhaps you don’t have enough left to worry about it.)
The monorail is exactly the kind of project that gives the right a stick to beat progressives with. Yes, some kind of rapid transit is good, especially as an alternative to the slow-as-shit Metro #7, but the monorail is yet another Seattle pipedream. It’s an article of faith completely unsupported by any kind of research that this sort of thing gets people out of their cars. It’s not going to get people out of their cars, it’s only going to get them off the buses.
The monorail people are right about one thing, though: It’s not Sound Transit on stilts. It’s much, much worse: It’s WPPSS on stilts. We’re just now recovering from that boondoggle and have obviously learned absolutely nothing. Even when they “Orange County” Seattle into Chapter 9, they’ll blame “tax cheats.”
the payments will last longer than the monorail cars themselves! A bad deal!
David@223
$12,850 per inch, OK ill bite…is that a good deal?