As Republicans survey the smoldering wreckage of the party of Lincoln and the inevitable reassessment occurs, here’s some free advice for them: stop lying about everything.
I don’t mean spinning and fudging and trying to put a good face on your policy positions. I mean stop lying as a first, middle and last resort about every last damn thing under the sun.
If you think a specific tax proposal is a bad idea, just explain why, don’t paint anyone and everything who might think it is a good idea as a communist. Don’t call birth control abortion. Don’t paint opponents as lovers of sex offenders. If your opposition is pointing out that the Constitution needs to be upheld, don’t call them terrorist sympathizers. If Americans are concerned about the economy, don’t try to blame people who were in office 30 years ago.
Stop lying. If you can. If you can’t, you will never come back as a meaningful political party.
Lying is all they have.
Lying, to a Republican politician, is as natural as breathing is to the rest of us.
Good advice for the Seattle Times.
Great summation of what the Republicans have done wrong in the last few elections.
As of 6.26 Goldmark’s up by a nose.
I have a better idea. They should all go into exile on a desert island. That way, they can keep lying, and no one else has to listen to them.
Honestly, do you think a group of people with such profound character flaws will simply decide to become human again? I don’t. It took them 60 years to work themselves into this frenzy of ignorance and hate, and it’ll take a couple of generations for this cancer in our society to die out.
Grow a pair and put an (R) next to your name next time. Wearing (GOP) or some other moniker just makes you look like a weasel.
@6
“You’re against the first amendment, you criticized me and that’s stifling free speech! You’re a hypocrite, you claim to be an environmentalist but why do you hate desert islands!!! You’re a socialist! Giving away free islands!! You’re Anti-American!”
— brought to you by the republican fake outrage generator v3.4
@7: Agreed. The “G.O.P. Party” thing has to end here.
To the bitter republicans:
This was democracy:
More than 130 million people turned out to vote – the most ever.
More than 64% of the eligible voters actually voted – the highest percentage in generations.
Obama got the first majority of Americans by a democrat since Jimmy Carter.
The democratic advantage in the House and Senate is back to where it was before Reagan.
There is NO disputing this massive turnout and massive electoral college win by Obama. The politics of name-calling, lies, innuendo, guilt by association and blame the democrats lost massively.
Now is the time to unite, to fix the mess, to listen to republicans with good ideas who actually care about the country (not the whiners and name-callers who claim that this is facism).
The real facists are the people who are calling names and discounting this massive voter initiative for change. The real facists are the people who discount democracy, ignore the will of Americans, call rightfully elected Americans names and disparage the process of democracy.
How can the promoters of democracy for Iraq have so little trust for democracy in America?
I just hope this means that the playbook that dictates running on extreme lies, distortions and the exploitation of people’s darkest fears can get thrown out for good.
Maybe now we can have something approaching adult discourse with respect to our political process and stop being the sideshow of the world every four years or so.
Delano, Fitzgerald, Baines, Jefferson, Hussein, sounds about right to me.
One thing I noticed this morning is the 4th C.D. race wasn’t at all close. Doc Hastings cruised to re-election with 65% of the votes. How could the polls showing Fearing within 5 points be so far off?
@8 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah … fuck ’em.
That’s all, just fuck ’em. I’ve moved past ideology to biological function. Let the goat do the fucking. The goat’s been on the getting end too long. It’s the goat’s turn.
That’s all I’ve got to say to Repugs.
Four words for our troll friends:
Dancing. In. The. Streets.
Think about it.
“No we are NOT stil fucking sheep (goats)!
(Wearing a Rossi button).
Welcome to a new age Republicunts!
NO MORE SHEEP FOR YOU!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
15:
Roger, you channeling The Boss?
Me too!!!
Paul Krugman:
Thank you my fellow Americans for voting for change. Keep in mind that the monkey gang in the White House can still do a lot of damage until January 20. But for today, maybe we can afford to feel good about our victory.
HEAR! HEAR! Neoconism is a blight on any party and any country. It has nothing to do with either democratic or conservative principles.
As bigoted Dixiecrats re-branded themselves under the “Republican” moniker and began their decimation of the party, the Democratic Party grew in centrist principles and progressivism.
The two major parties no longer represent conservative vs. liberal. Today, the Democrats represent individual and mutual responsibility while the Republicans now represent Neoconistic bigotry, oligarchy and plutocracy.
Maybe we should be looking in to how they counted their votes. I’m not saying there is voter fraud, but someone should take a look when there is such a discrepancy.
And, in the end, lying (to others and to himself) is what did in McCain’s campaign. Every person at the election party I was at last night said they respected him and had liked him in 2000. We all agreed that this guy running in 2008 was not the McCain we knew. He was persuaded to toss aside his ideals and the person that he is. They tell us this when we are growing up, “Be yourself.” He likely would have receive more votes and been able to sleep better at night knowing he was true to himself. It’s going to haunt him that he listened to others.
I still can’t figure out if he was really wanted Sarah Palin (whom you noticed he called “the best campaigner”)on the ticket or he got persuaded on that one, too.
One lie they need to get rid of that the majority of Americans are against abortion. The latest votes in South Dakota and Colorado show that Biden’s explanation during the debate of how we handle abortion in this country IS how most Americans view it.
I honestly would love to figure out a way to unite and get things done to move our country forward.
Jon–
Your comment implies that Democrats are always truthful. Not so.
President Obama has huge challenges.
I have positioned my investment portfolio where I have no worries.
He can do little to hurt me without gutting his wealthy Liberal pals 1st. And frankly, he won’t do that.
We’re retired with zero debt and more than we will ever need secure in liquid assets, good real estate and a few choice equities both in my Retirement Accounts and outside my Retirement Accounts. Heck, I even get Social Security in a few years! I sold equities into yesterday’s rally and will probably do little future short-term trading. Why if tax rates are going up? We will continue to give generously to faith-based organizations that provide money directly to needy people with little or no overhead. No need to punish those doing good deeds.
The rest is up to President Obama. He has made a lot of semi-promises and implications to the far-left that he is already realizing he cannot deliver any time soon. But I believe Obama, like Clinton, has the ability to make you BELIEVE & FEEL he is championing your causes & ideology..even though his actions will be few of any real meaning.
My biggest concern is National Security & Defense. Like Clinton, Obama will have to gut the Military to do whatever Big Government Social programs he desires to promote. Where else will the money come from?? Tax increases WILL NOT produce more revenues in a recession. Don’t kid yourselves about that. So Obama must either cut the Military or increase the Deficit. Which one??
Here is an article about Obama & your personal finances:
http://finance.yahoo.com/banki.....my-in-2009
There will be many more to come.
How have you positioned yourselves financially if unemployment increases and the recession deepens??
Jon–
One other thing…you KLOWNS are in charge and have been for 2 years. Congress has done nothing.
Are you going to continue to look back and blame??
Now is the opportunity you so craved.
Your focus ought to be on PRECISELY what Obama and a Democratic Congress ought to do.
Your focus ought to be PRECISELY on what Gregoire and a Democratic Legislature ought to do.
It appears to me all your energy has been focused on criticism and winning.
You won.
Why not focus on what you are going to do???
I think the G.O.P. Party thing might have cost Rossi a couple of percent. Republicans knew what G.O.P. meant and Democrats didn’t care. But with independents who didn’t know what G.O.P. meant, many didn’t vote for Rossi because they were afraid to vote for some kooky fringe party that they had never heard of before. So they played it safe and voted for Gregoire.
You can just shut the fuck up, Cynical, you irrelevant goatfucking bitch.
You got your ass kicked!!!
HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR!!!!!!!
The John McCain who conceded to Barack Obama is the McCain that people would have voted for.
I wish he would not just reach across the aisle, but come on over to our side.
Lieberman can become the Republican.
I fear for our nation.
9 out of the 10 top cities with the highest murder rates have black mayors. Something about having a black leader must embolden blacks to commit more violent crimes.
Now that we have a black man leading the entire nation, I fear black crime will skyrocket.
Perhaps the 5 blacks who robbed and killed Tubaman is just the start of what’s to come.
@22: Congress has done nothing because the Republicans have filibustered to a REMARKABLE degree. Is that bipartisanship? Is that progress? Hardly.
@ 22–
You left the ball on the rim, so I’ll go ahead and dunk it—
You mean like when we propose a small change in the marginal income tax rate for the wealthiest Americans, simply letting a tax cut expire, and then Republicans LIE endlessly about it? You mean like that?
There is nothing you can say or do Cynical. We’re going to move this country forward and include EVERYONE, even you, in the equation. Someday you’ll thank us. Now go collect your troll money from the BIAW.
And have a nice day. Enjoy the smell of real democracy in the air. The ratfucking didn’t work this time.
re 22: Does an obstructionist Republican Senate faction and an obdurate, retarded, obstructionist Republican president enter into your calculations of the last two years.
Things are not going back to the way they were before 11/4/08 — ever.
@26 Four words, Troll: It’s the goat’s turn.
P.S., If you don’t like it here, move.
Mr. Cynical @ 22
The same thing can be said that Republicans should have focused on their own plans for the country (as opposed to keeping up criticism of Democrats) when they won Congress in 1994 and the White House in 2000. Instead, the Republicans screwed things up. Hopefully, the Democrats won’t do the same thing in the coming years.
re 26: As Daffy Duck or Rudy Giulliani might say: “You’re DETHPICABLE!”
@30
I used to have a safety/self-preservation rule: Don’t venture south of Madison street. Tubaman was robbed and murdered by the 5 blacks at 5th and Mercer, right next to the Seattle Center. But that was at midnight.
So do I now not go south of Mercer street? Or keep it at Madison street, but just don’t leave the house after dark?
@32
Lucy, I’m the dethpicable one? Not the 5 black animals who robbed and murdered tuba man? You don’t mention them, but you do mention the person who is concerned about violent crime? Typical liberal, remaining silent over black crime for fear of appearing racist, but quick to decry others who complain about black crime.
@30 and the goat has a gallon of ” Goat Lube”.
With Obama’s election, I an honesty concerned for my safety.
Him being in the White House will embolden them.
Why? I don’t know.
Perhaps it’s a tribal thing, and they believe Obama “got their back.”
Perhaps they believe that even if they are caught, Obama will make sure they receive lighter sentences, etc. Who knows?
All I know is there is a connection between blacks in power, and black violent crime. And I know that I am now afraid for my life.
@34 You lost troll. Fuck you and everything you and your America-hating, goatfucking ilk stand for. Go ahead, live in fear. Nobody here gives a shit.
Troll: FAIL!
Black people are coming for you, Troll. Hide under your bed, you irrelevant goatfucking bitch.
@37
I am the most patriotic person here.
@40 You may not have noticed, but your head is exploding. Thanks for sharing, you stupid goatfucker.
What caused the Rwandan genocide? The Hutu president’s plane going down. In revenge, 800,000 Tutsis were then murdered by the Hutu people. If Obama’s plane goes down, what makes you think blacks wouldn’t start the same kind of genocide against whites, who they would blame for Obama’s plane crash and death?
@34:
Fear mongering troll – if you are so concerned about crime, the best way to reduce crime is to make jobs and pay for police.
Bush has one of the worst records of creating jobs and democrats actually are willing to pay for more police.
Crime overall went down more during the Clinton presidency than any other time.
I am sorry about tuba man – but labeling an entire people because of the actions of a few is called racism.
Take your irrational fear elsewhere – here we deal with reality. Obama will inspire many more people of color to become successful in society. Bush inspired nothing from anyone. This is a sea change election. The following red states switched to blue:
Iowa
Ohio
Florida
Indiana
Virginia
Colorado
New Mexico
Nevada
Possibly NC or Missouri
This is a democratic tidal wave and thanks to the hateful racist sentiments expressed by cynical and other trolls – real Americans are rejecting the politics of lies, racism and division.
Good-bye idealogues – go live in your lonely xenophobic world. In MY country, your values have been rejected.
@42 Christ, your head is exploding and you don’t even know it!
Oh, what a beautiful morning. Oh, what a beautiful day. Trolls’ head is exploding. Everything’s going our way.
The black hordes are coming for you, Troll!
@42:
Do you realize how pathetic and stupid you sound?
Are you comparing Rwanda to the US?
What country are you from?
Do you have any ability to think logically?
@43
9 out of the top 10 U.S. cities with the highest murder rates have black Democratic mayors.
It seems to me that there’s a connection. That black leadership causes black violent crime to increase.
I’d like to extend my thanks to Troll for sharing his head explosion with us. There’s goat shit everywhere, obviously, but it was well worth it. We’ll clean that mess up like we will everything else they’ve fucked up.
Troll has a big black rubber cock in his ass right now. Oh and a ball gag.
To you un-Americans liberals,
Hussein needed to swing center to steal the election.
In a very few months Americans will see the biggest mistake in or history.
With a small majority in the senate we will be able to stop the destruction of our country.
One question we must ask ourselves is who will Hussein receive his orders from in the Middle East? Once you poor suckers find out he won’t give you any money will you take to the streets?
He won’t be able to screw our country too much in 4 years then we get our country back.
Our country is split until 2012, God Bless the rest of us.
Race aside, I think Obama is a big phony, and he has all of you fooled. If the guy is so interested in spreading the wealth around, why doesn’t he spread very much of his to charities over the last 10 years, and why are his relatives living in abject poverty?
And for Mohammed’s sake, is he going to do the right thing and ship his illegal alien auntie back to africa?
Long live the cesspool.
Troll has to be the worst of the trolls here.
An unhinged racist.
To be the worst troll here? That took some doing.
Race aside, I think Obama is a big phony
So why did you vote for him? Or was that a lie?
Troll:
http://failblog.files.wordpres.....a-fail.jpg
Oh yeah, and, Republicans booing Obama at McCain’s concession speech: FAIL. What a bunch of pansy-assed loosers.
@21 westello:
Take a look at:
After Lobbying To Select Palin, Top McCain Adviser Can’t Bring Himself To Say She Was A Good Pick
#54
Thanks for that pic. Did you see that guy’s chair? That can’t be good for his back.
Lying to win is what they do. But I have trouble understanding how so many voters can be so dumb and gullible as to believe them.
I understand corporations and the uber-rich want the repigs to rule because they have enough money to buy their Congress sheeple.
And the rethugs pander to the fears of xians who focus on one or two issues.
But the average pub voter who thinks that the rethug pol has “values” really stymies me.
Troll is one sick man. Wow.
54 – Yep! That’s our Troll for sure!
LMAO!!!
@58
I want everyone to notice something about how liberals think. Rujax didn’t call the 5 black animals who robbed and beat to death the Tubaman sick. No. He called me sick. Me, someone who: Doesn’t commit crimes; has a full-time job; pays pays all his bills on time; doesn’t steal; doesn’t assault; etc.
Now THAT is a sick and twisted mind. In Rujax’s world, the law-abiding are sick, and the criminals are guiltless. Everything is backwards.
I’m not surprised that the racist pigs on this board don’t notice that plenty of white males commit atrocious and vicious crimes.
It would be great if Repubs stopped their chronic pathetic accusations (just because we don’t like your vision of America doesn’t make us anti-American) and flag worship (how about a pledge of allegiance to the Constitution?). I liked all your examples, except the one about previous office holders from 30 yrs ago. For example, you can trace the destruction of the working class back to the philosophy and policies enacted by Ronald Reagan. The past matters, and today will soon become the past.
I had a long talk last night with a family member, who was concerned about whether the Democratic victory will mean, well, pretty much everything disasterous the Republicans threatened it would mean.
Of course, given a chance, I think Obama will prove to most of those who are willing to give him a chance that he’s a reasonable man, no wild idealoge, but a carefull governor of our nation.
But I agree with those on these boards who have pointed out that despite our frustrations with the conduct of the Republican Party, we feel there is a real need for a “loyal opposition”, and one-party rule isn’t good for the government. Maybe the Republicans will take this opportunity to reform themselves.
http://hotair.com/archives/200.....-on-obama/
Uhh yeah.
You can believe everything that Obama says….
Stop lying?
Look in the mirror Jon.
All along I have said that racism isn’t holding blacks back, that they are holding themselves back. This election proves me right. Blacks can only blame themselves for the mess they’re in.
trace the destruction of the working class
The destruction of the working class has nothing to do with the rich and everything to do with entitlements. I hope that I’m wrong, but I think Obama is only going to GROW the entitlement class..
The incentive to achieve to a big hit yesterday.
The Republicans found their winning formula in 1876. From Samuel Tilden (1876) to Nixon (1946) knowing Jerry Voorhis was not a Communist,”but I had to win” to Watergate and what you all yourselves have witnessed, the Republican Party, despite an occasional setback, has followed a consistent path of attack. The words may change from “Rum, Romanism and Rebellion” to Syndicalist to Communist to Socialist, but they will be out there waving the same bloody flag and playing the same dirty tricks. There are and have been good and moral Republicans – Wayne Morse & Lowell Weicker come to mind – but the party itself? My father told me, “Hell, I like Ike, too; but I don’t like the people he’s running around with.” Sadly, it’s a lesson that apparently has to be relearned over and over again: forget the common man; forget the common good; the only good is our good.
@ 10,
That is a correct general outlook. How long it will take is the question. I don’t see it happening until at least 2012, and not in a major way until 2014.
It is also worthwhile to remember that the economy cycles, and Pres. elect Obama has the luck (or good judgement/decisiveness to run) and hit the bottom of the economic cycle. This has also helped both Reagan and Clinton.
Have a nice day,
Farmer Fred
RS @ 64
So, your response to discussion of Republican lies is a montage of discontextualized snippets put together by a Republican? Do you not see the circularity of that argument?
RS @ 66
The destruction of the working class has nothing to do with the rich and everything to do with entitlements.
No. The destruction of the middle class has everything to do with jobs getting shipped overseas, and that has nothing to do with so-called “entitlements”.
Seriously, when are you going to get over these oversimplistic, formulaic bromides, and start talking about a real economy that exists in this very real world?
@ 68
It is also worthwhile to remember that the economy cycles
Wow. The current crisis is just a “cycle”?
Please, don’t try to be so deep and reflective. We need still more superficial analysis of the problems we face.
Troll?
Perhaps the most telling part of your comment is where you describe the assailants.
Animals, I will grant you, and even go further. Despicable cowards that, even for a death penalty opponent like myself, would tempt me to volunteer to pull the switch.
But exactly how does their race make them better or worse than similar white, or hispanic, or asian criminals?
Is there some evidence that I have not heard that links this terrible crime to race? Is anyone saying that if Tubaman were black, that these thugs wouldn’t have attacked him in exactly the same manner?
And even if there is, do you have evidence that the black community as a whole does not condemn this attack in the strongest possible way?
The attackers are thugs and vicious criminals. I realize that to you white supremicist types, everything is about race. Your own posts about President-elect Obama shows both your racism and ignorance.
Oh, and for “patriot”. That would be President-elect Barack Hussein Obama to you. What you racists tried to use as an epithet, we can now use as a badge of honor.
Oddly, the dictator Saddam Hussein banned the celebration of the Shiite holiday of Ashura, which memorializes the death of the Imam Hussein (among others).
I expect that President Obama will be instrumental in erasing some of the stain that Saddam inflicted on an otherwise ancient and honorable name.
And while I will try to resist the temptation to chortle with glee over the apoplexy that it causes you wingnuts, I am, after all, only human.
The Republicans have already been ‘redeemed.’ Just ask them.
A caller to the AM conservative show during drive time said that the republican party shuns non whites that other wise would be republicans. All the “brown people go home” and “asian people go home” themes of the republicans make it harder from them to get votes.
He felt they would have to rethink that part of the republican party to be viable national party.
There were very few non white faces in the mccain crowd. There was EVERYONE in the Obama rallies.
Many posters at the conservative forums are convincing that
A – The voters are stupid and
B – It’s the media’s fault.
It’s not the republican’s fault.
John @ 71
It’s a shame that the name “Hussein” (or “Hussayn” depending on your method of transliteration) has come to be associated with Saddam and treachery and oppressive tyranny. In the history of Islam, the name “Hussayn” has a very different meaning.
Hussayn ibn `Ali was the third Imam and the last of the Caliph’s who descended from Muhammad, and stood in opposition to the rule of the Umayyids (whose reign, by the way and if you’re into Christian eschatology, fits the Biblical description of the “Beast” of Revelations to a T). The Ummayid dynasty was particularly nasty and oppressive.
The Imam Hussayn was martyred on the plain of Karbila, upon which now stands the second holiest shrine of all of Islam. It was his martyrdom that became the rallying cry that eventually led to the downfall of the Umayyid dynasty.
It is his martyrdom that Shi’ites celebrate on the tenth of Muharram.
So, President-elect Barack Obama should be proud of his middle name, and what it truly stands for. And so should we, for that matter.
LMAO!!! The Wasilla-billies GOT while the GETTIN’ was good.
Sarah Palin is a hollow and shallow fraud. I’m reminded of some companies I’ve seen whose management’s official policy is too take as many bars of soap, shampoo bottles, coffee pouches and towels as possible from lodgings while traveling on company business. I mean a really crass mentality.
I hope the people of Alaska can recall her.
When is Kenya going to elect a white person president? Or Uganda? Or Tanzania?
If Huckabee or Romney had received the nomination, made an intelligent choice for VP, and run a smart campaign, it may look very different this morning. McCain was right, it is his fault.
Jon DeVore spews:
So Jon, one thing you feel Obama will do is raise taxes for wealthy people slightly.
You call it allowing something to expire…but the bottom-line is it is an increase.
Cutting thru all the vitrolic chest-pounding, what else is Obama actually going to do???
Seems like there is little specifics on the table other than words like hope, change and move forward.
But ultimately the question is,
WHAT DOES THAT PRECISELY MEAN IN TERMS OF LAWS & POLICY’S??
That’s what I’m asking you.
Not goat-f*cking or a$$holes or hot rhetoric…but what SPECIFICALLY will Obama do and what will be the implications.
If nothing significantly improves, 2010 will be 1994 all over again.
One thing I like about Obama is he KNOWS he cannot deliver all he implied to his ardent supporters. He will be challenged by the radical Islamic Terrorists. He will see his military stressed even more.
Even though I think Obama is secretly a Muslim, and he’s a hypocrite, and he’s a socialist, and he hates white people, and America, I do think he will be good for getting us out of Iraq, which I fully support. But I honestly believe this is the beginning of the end of America as we know it. This is the turning point where we now will be descending into an unimaginable hell.
One thing I like about Obama
I thought you called him “O-blah-blah”.
He’s President-Elect Barack Hussein Obama.
Yes he will raise taxes on those fortunate enough to make 200k (single) or 250k (family) or more. Or rather let Bush’s tax cuts to them expire.
He will also make investments in clean energy and other R&D similar to the high tech R&D investments Clinton made. These will payoff in Obama’s second term just like they did for Clinton.
He’ll take a thorough look through the federal budget to clear out the more outrageous Republican featherbedding.
He’ll strengthen alliances that were strained to the breaking point under Bush. This should result in less military spending.
It’s very expensive to clean up after the Republicans. It’s a lot of hard work – just ask Bill Clinton.
Where are the thoughtful republicans?
The hannity and free republic posters are livid.
Oy vey…
Here is a perfect example of wht we were (and still are) up against.
The guys that killed my beloved Tuba Man are criminals who will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Troll…this poor frightened twisted little individual should really get help.
Cynical @ 79
Obama’s proposals are easy to find, so your lack of knowledge about them is more than a bit puzzling.
You spent the entire campaign listening to Republican propaganda, and never went to the source. How can anyone take your comments seriously? Even your questions are idiotic.
So cynical, after you check out the link to Obama’s proposals, which ones do you want to talk about?
Obama is basically a privileged white man. He is half white. He went to elite universities. He was raised by a white mother and grandmother. And his black father, as often is the case, was absent.
@80 “This is the turning point where we now will be descending into an unimaginable hell”
I take it that you’re speaking of your own personal journey. I think you’re quite right. Enjoy the abyss and good riddance to you.
@81;
“It’s very expensive to clean up after the Republicans. It’s a lot of hard work – just ask Bill Clinton.”
Bill Clinton inherited a world at general peace, a declining oil (the price of energy is the most important thing to a growing economy) price partially due to the success of the first gulf war, and a recovering economy due partly to the Bush 1 tax increases. Give credit where credit is due. This is not slamming Clinton, just showing how world cycles have more power than an individual president. As an example, as a farmer, I thank the republican cycle in the 1980’s for saving us for the disaster that was Jimmy Carter. It is also interesting to note that this past year was one of the best ever for our nations agricultural industry (still the nations largest) and myself, which is out of step with the rest of the economy. The upcoming year looks decent also, based on current input and commodity prices.
President elect Obama does not have this scenario, and has a much harder task at hand. As a republican, I still see success for the democratic party in the short term, and they deserved to win this election cycle.
Have a nice day,
Farmer Fred
Racist motherfucker.
@ 88
This is not slamming Clinton, just showing how world cycles have more power than an individual president. As an example, as a farmer, I thank the republican cycle in the 1980’s for saving us for the disaster that was Jimmy Carter.
Do you not see the fundamental contradiction between those two sentences?
Troll and Cynical have become such bores. Where’s Puddy? I want to see his head blow up.
“This is not slamming Clinton, just showing how world cycles have more power than an individual president.
“I thank the republican cycle in the 1980’s for saving us for the disaster that was Jimmy Carter.”
I guess you missed the inflationary cycle caused by the debacle that was the Viet Nam war being the gift Carter received from the Republican cycles before him?
Your seeds ain’t sproutin’ with that logic Farmer.
@88: After 8 years and two terms Clinton took huge budget deficits and turned them into budget surpluses.
Bush promptly put us into an unecessary war and created the largest budget deficits in history.
Reagan/Bush created the largest budget deficits in history (until the current Bush deficits).
Get your economics and history straight. It is the budget deficits that are the drag on the economy. REagan did nothing to get us off foreign oil – any idiot could see that eventually we will pay the piper for not having an energy policy.
@88;
You potentially have a point; Reagan was more free trade, which is good for ag in general. Reagan was also helped by his deregulation policys which lowered our input prices. At that time, over-regulation was the problem, in my view. As a farmer, I have generally done better (based on many factors) under R’s than D’s.
@92;
Which president/party got us into Vietnam? Who held congress during the Vietnam era? How many deaths for this war for NO net result? Did Carter make things better? How? Figure out how many military deaths by either party in power since WW2? Read history, and then check back with your “logic”.
The democratic party of 2008 is a far cry from that of 1980. You have adapted and made history. Now the republican party has to change in order to be a viable force in our nations future.
Be back tonight. Congratulations on the D victory.
Have a nice day,
Farmer Fred
This Fred the Farmer, at least he’s civil. I take back calling you a goatfucker, Fred.
@93;
“After 8 years and two terms Clinton took huge budget deficits and turned them into budget surpluses” AFTER the R’s took control of congress.
“REagan did nothing to get us off foreign oil – any idiot could see that eventually we will pay the piper for not having an energy policy.” Correct, neither did Clinton/Gore. Bush 2 has more alternative energy sources established on his watch than any previous president (I know, it has helped me tremendously). Which party until now has stopped drilling? Obama seems to have a well rounded energy policy.
“Reagan/Bush created the largest budget deficits in history (until the current Bush deficits).” Not disagreeing with this, of course remember that we had a weak military after Carter. When Bush 1 left the USSR had ceased to exist. Which road did we chose? The correct one to me.
I also agree that Bush2 has been a general failure as a president.
Have a nice day,
Farmer Fred
81. YLB spews:
OK, what will Obama do if that does not generate as much tax revenue as he anticipates?
YLB, small business and high income earners are not just sitting back waiting for this to happen. Many are actually shifting income to 2008 with bonuses to avoid higher rates in 2009 and future. Many are also maximizing Pension & Profit-Sharing Contributions…taking money out of their businesses and preparing to not only not expand..but to tighten operations meaning lay-offs. Certainly no new hiring of college kids.
Also, regarding Capital Gains Tax increases….what are the unrealized Capital Gains?? Actually, wise investors like me have realized their Capital Gains by selling real estate the past 5 years and stocks the past 1-1/2 years. We also have most Capital Gains sheltered in retirement accounts..only taxable when withdrawn. What we now have are many BILLIONS of unrealized Capital Losses which can be carried back and offset against prior Capital Gains. There can also be deducted this year and moving forward @ $3,000/yr. Obama will be pressured to increase the $3,000 limit.
Fair enough. Will you be looking at the Cost-Beneift of these “investments”? “Investments” ought to be cost justified, don’t you think?
Will Obama encourage more drilling? What if Obama pulls out of the Middle East and it blows up resulting in $150/barrel Oil again?
What will happen to the economy and all the Investment Capital required by Obama?
What about the Democrat “featherbedding”?? The Dems do control Congress you know. If Obama only removes Republican “featherbedding”, what will that gain him?? Have you looked at the Democrat “earmarks”?? They are plentiful and equally as offensive. But YLB, you are proposing & suggesting Obama only remove Republican “featherbedding”???
What Alliances will he specifically strengthen?? How?? What precisely does that mean?
Regarding Less Military Spending, are you suggesting Obama will convince our allies to spend MORE on their own defense?? History tells us most of the world looks to us in times of strife. If the Middle East blows up, are you saying other country’s, who also are experiencing huge fiscal problems, will somehow contribute more?? Or are you saying President Obama will somehow pacify our enemies?? If so, how will he appease Iran, Taliban & AlQaeda?? Please enlighten me on how that will happen.
Being in charge means having to make tough decisions…and be held accountable.
Most Obama voters are clueless about specifics on what Obama ought to do.
But it is ultimately the specifics that matter.
Talk is Talk.
Are you going to mistake Motion for Action?
The DOW is soooo excited about Obama’s election, it is DOWN over 300 points today.
I sold into yesterday’s rally….and am still almost all OUT.
But once Obama makes it clear exactly what he is going to do, there may be some great opportunities.
Another Stimulus Package like Bush did?
Pelosi is pushing it.
84. Don Joe spews:
Cynical @ 79
I have read those you refer to.
So which ones will Obama push and when??
What will the impact be on our Economy and the Federal Budget??
Pelosi is pushing another Stimulus Package.
The first one didn’t accomplish anything I can see.
I see the words Don Joe..
I want to know what YOU think he ought to do and when and what the impact will be.
89. Rujax! spews:
Racist?? It’s true.
Barrack Obama’s sperm-donor deserted him..one meeting at 10. His daddy was a loser….certainly not a father.
His mom was a hippy who also deserted him for several years.
His “typical white woman” granny was the one who saved him. Obama owes HER the debt of gratitude which I’m sure he sees more clearly now.
That is a fact rujax…if you judge by reality.
@ 94
You potentially have a point;
I’d say it’s more than “potentially.” One sentence decried the very notion that we could blame presidents for up-and-down cycles in the economy, and the second proceeded to blame Carter for what happened in the late 70’s, early 80’s.
Reagan was more free trade, which is good for ag in general. Reagan was also helped by his deregulation policys which lowered our input prices. At that time, over-regulation was the problem, in my view.
Gosh, let’s leave out a few other facts, shall we? Carter appointed Paul Volker as chairman of the Fed. That one act, more than anything Reagan did, is responsible for both the recession of the early 80’s and the subsequent boom that followed.
You’ve also left out the whole set of Nixon/Ford policies regarding inflation. Need we dig into these as well?
The point is, blaming what happened during specific administrations on cycles and/or using variations of the post-hoc fallacy avoids any form of well-reasoned discussion of the effects of actual policies that were put in place.
Things were bad under Carter. The real question is, might the not have been worse if not for some of the specific policy actions that Carter took? Did he not have to deal with a larger mess than he should have had it not been for some rather bad policies from Nixon and Ford?
In a similar vein, does not President-elect Obama face a crisis that was greatly deepened by some very bad policy decisions made during the present administration?
That’s the kind of discussion we need right now.
I agree with Steve, and say that I appreciate your civility. But the shallowness of your discussion remains deeply disturbing.
49. Patriot spews:
No, he never changed his views or his plans one bit. If you had ever bothered to learn what his positions actually were you’d know.
I think we’re hearing from him right now.
No, you do not have a “samll majority,” you have a small and shrinking minority.
No, no one who lives outside of Wingnutville is asking themselves that.
No, we’ll be to busy working to repair the damage of the last eight years.
Good one. Bush can win re-election and Obama can’t? Yeah, right.
Our country has been split since 1992.
I must face the music and admit: I MGI, who has been derided as a troll and a wing nut at various times……
Voted for BHO
AND
Voted for Gregoire
AND
Voted for…..The Darcy
It was a long and gut wrenching, even tortured process and digestion of information, facts, and well…..a little fear for what a McCain Administration might have brought. What ultimately pushed me over the edge for Obama was Sarah Palin. The thought of a theoretical possibility of Sarah Palin being President scared the living shit out of me. As for my votes for Gregoire, I didn’t think she was that bad of a Governor to begin with. And my vote for The Darcy…..it came down to the moment in the voting booth, I was staring at my ballot for 5 minutes thinking about Reichert’s record in Congress so far and I honestly had to admite that I was underwhelmed to say the least so I thought what the fuck, I’ll give The Darcy a shot. I may be embarrassed in a year, but I just wanted to scribble a vote for SOMEONE and get the fuck out of there because I was late to work.
@ 98
I have read those you refer to.
So which ones will Obama push and when??
What will the impact be on our Economy and the Federal Budget??
Aren’t you getting a bit ahead of yourself? Do you not want to spend any time talking about whether or not these are sound proposals in general?
Pelosi is pushing another Stimulus Package.
The first one didn’t accomplish anything I can see.
I’m not sure how you conclude that the February stimulus package didn’t accomplish anything at all. It’s entirely possible that it made things less worse than they would have been.
More importantly, Republicans in Congress have strenuously resisted any form of stimulus package that went beyond mere tax relief. While we can’t definitively say that the tax relief passed last February had no positive effect, we can certainly say that it wasn’t enough.
A lot of Economists, including Paul Volker, are calling for more direct spending, particularly on infrastructure investments. Republicans have resisted this, but that would have a more direct effect on jobs and on middle-class incomes than any form of tax cut.
Will such programs likely increase the deficit? Yes, at least in the short term. On the other hand, infrastructure expenditures have a way of generating more national income that, in the long run, pay for themselves. Ask Eisenhower.
I want to know what YOU think he ought to do and when and what the impact will be.
What is this, your version of “after you, my dear Alphonse?”
The only policy proposal coming out of Republicans these days is to put more money in the hands of people who already have sizable incomes with literally no incentive for them to do anything with that money that would be more economically effective than if they were to spend it all buying up a whole bunch of mortgage-backed securities.
At this point, Obama implementing any of his proposals in just about any order would be a significant improvement over the feckless policies that Republicans have in mind.
Don Joe–
So your solution is to “talk about” Obama’s election proposals? Talk about them…NOW??
Seems like the time for talking is over.
We need action.
I cannot see how Obama can possibly move forward on his Campaign Promises and Platform.
But I’m all ears.
YOU KLOWNS are now in charge.
DO SOMETHING!
You will soon find out, as Obama well knows, your expectations are way too high.
Obama is already lowering them…even in his speech.
While his fans were crying & cheering, Obama told you he may not be able to do things in a year or even in his first term. YIKES!
The DOW, post-election, is now DOWN almost 500 points. Reality has set in for Obama…but not for his groupies.
It’s time for you to really think these things thru Don Joe…some of Obama’s proposal’s will likely make things worse.
I have shared with you some of the reality of what has been going on with Capital Gains/Losses and how Obama’s tax proposals may make things worse.
At some point, the Democrats will have to take action and be held accountable for the consequences.
Listen to Obama.
Obama knows more taxing, spending & costly regulating will choke the last breath out of a flailing economy. That is precisely what most of you KLOWNS want him to do.
He WON’T do it!
You KLOWNS who have not set yourselves up financially, have debt and questionable jobs…you will end up being the same losers 4 years from now that you are now.
We MUST grow the economy. Quickly.
@104 “I have shared with you some of the reality of what”
You know nothing, troll. You have no ranch. You have no investments. You are simply a delusional, pompous ass filled with unwarranted smugness, and suffering from nearly indescribable inadaquacies, insecurities and hate. Besides that, you fuck goats.
@77, Troll – do us a favor, why don’t you go over there and try to make a run for it.
Ghettoizing organized Labor is the portion of ‘free trade’ that makes ‘free trade’ just an empty slogan. Last Friday’s New York Times had an article outlining the not so surprising news that manufacturers were holding large amounts of cheaply produced goods that no one will buy.
It seems that if workers do not have any money to spend, manufacturers have no customers. So, crushing the labor movement provides short term profits — but eventually the chickens come home to roost. That’s why regulations and a strong labor movement are needed.
Duh. If people don’t have jobs that generate disposable income, they cannot buy anything.
Here are two bumper stickers slogans.
Fair Trade, not Free Trade.
Living Wages, not Race to the Bottom.
@ 104
So your solution is to “talk about” Obama’s election proposals? Talk about them…NOW??
President-elect Obama doesn’t take office until January. For now, there isn’t much else for us to do but talk.
The DOW, post-election, is now DOWN almost 500 points. Reality has set in for Obama…but not for his groupies.
And Intrade had Obama well ahead of of McCain long before yesterday’s election. If you think today’s fall-off is due to some kind of unanticipated election result, then what you’re smoking is substantially more potent than tobacco.
It’s time for you to really think these things thru Don Joe…some of Obama’s proposal’s will likely make things worse.
I have thought things through. I’ve spent a good part of the past several months attempting to engage you in a reasoned discussion of these very proposals, and all you’ve done is spout nonsense about “socialism” and “marxism”.
You’ve tried to explain how Obama’s policies will make things worse, but your arguments have been naive and sophomoric. Now, you want to proceed as if all of those arguments are somehow, through some rhetorical magic, rendered valid?
I have shared with you some of the reality of what has been going on with Capital Gains/Losses and how Obama’s tax proposals may make things worse.
You haven’t shared anything having to do with “reality” in months. Indeed, I’m hard-pressed to think of anything that you’ve said that has had anything remotely to do with reality.
So, your plan for making things “better” is to put more money into the hands of rich people so that they can go and buy more mortgage-backed securities? We tried that already. The definition of “insanity” is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the outcomes to change.
We MUST grow the economy. Quickly.
Except that where the growth occurs, and how that growth occurs, matters–a fact that, apparently, has yet to find its way into your version of “reality”.
Cynidumbass is having a hard time:
a) finding, following and keeping a factual narrative straight…
b) coming to grips with the reality that his “side” not only lost but was soundly repudiated by an undisputable majority of regular Americans…and…
c) with the concept that NOBODY here gives a flying fuck about what he says or thinks…
Have a nice 24 years of peace and prosperity brought to you by the Democratic Party.
Webster needs to contact troll and get his picture.
Can go right next the word:
IGNORANT (mother fucker).
Not for R&D, you fool. You can’t even do it in the short term. Maybe in 30 years we could look back and see where it got us, but R&D is what builds new technologies that keep countries competitive. The Japanese government gives money directly to corporations to do this, the US does it differently, typically through funding to govt agencies (DOE, DOD, NIH, etc) and through research grants (NAS etc).
Your ignorance of science policy is regrettable.
Since you KLOWNS are incapable of recognizing Obama’s reality, listen to this from former NPR-guy Juan Williams (a guy I have tremendous respect for…even if he is a Lefty):
Political analyst Juan Williams said Obama’s biggest critics will come from the party’s left wing, because he won’t be able to fulfill all of his promises.
You KLOWNS are “in-charge”…yet you are klueless about what Obama should do and the reality of the economic consequences of Obama’s campaign rhetoric to get elected and what pragmatically he can do.
Obama is already starting out on the wrong foot by naming Rahm Emmanuel, politcal operative, as Chief-Of-Staff. Emmanual is a true political hack…not highly respected.
It’s going to be a looooooooong road for Obama. His Cabinet will be put under the microscope.
What is Obama’s “change” agenda?
Far from clear.
All I know is Obama is a lot more pragmatic than the KLOWNS like you who cannot even articluate what he should do!
112. Tlazolteotl spews:
Funny guy. So you are sying Obama can “invest” money, but not be held accountable?? Are you in touch with how deep this recession is??
SOMEDAY, when we are all dead, Obama will prove to be wise in his investments??
That is precisely what I expect from you KLOWNS.
Nothing.
@ 112
Cynical’s only approach is to engage an argument with creatures made of straw. His entire approach in this thread is based on the mistaken belief that folks here are expecting things to change before Obama is even sworn in as President.
Cynical can’t even make a reasonable case to folks here expect our economy to get substantially better within six months of Obama’s inauguration, and even that would be a stretch.
Most folks here understand that Republicans have fucked things up pretty badly, and that climbing out of this hole is going to be a long hard haul. We remain convinced, however, that Obama will do a far better job of getting us out of the hole in which we’re about to wallow, but Cynical will steadfastly refuse to engage that argument.
Why? Because the only arrow he has in his quiver is a continuation of the same policies that fucked everything up in the first place. Cynical embodies the very definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result. We’re supposed to keep increasing taxes on the middle class while decreasing taxes on the very wealthy until the wealthy bear absolutely no tax burden at all and the middle class completely disappears.
But, supposedly, that will make the economy grow “quickly”. I guess we’re just supposed to ignore the lasting harm that such a short-term outlook has caused in the past.
Talk about not learning from history…
Don Joe–
So what should Obama do once he is sworn in?
What do you expect??
Nothing?
I appears that way.
When motivated by hate & anger as you & your ilk have been, being in charge is obviously a very traumatic time.
You cannot even lay out what specifically Obama should do.
Here’s a republican for you …
Blame Obama for everything. You think this prince would have left the rents alone if mccain had won?
The reason the stock market is swinging wildly is because this is what happens when a bear market is looking for the bottom. That’s all.
@ 116
So what should Obama do once he is sworn in?
I’d expect him to work with Congress to get as much of his policy ideas passed as possible. Is there some reason I should expect him to do anything else?
You cannot even lay out what specifically Obama should do.
Of course I can. You’ve just never given me a legitimate rhetorical reason for doing so here.
In the mean time, we’ll all notice your utter failure to engage in the arguments I’ve made about reasonable expectations for an Obama Presidency.
From the AP White House correspondent:
He also faces challenging political realities.
Trippi is talking to you KLOWNS. You chumps who have been so dramatically talking smack about what Obama would do for YOU.
Ain’t gonna happen Chumps.
Reality has set in for Obama.
It will never set in for the far-left winger like you KLOWNS.
As you have shown however, you cannot clearly articulate your expectations….therefore, how can you be disappointed!
119. Don Joe spews:
You are hysterical Don Joe.
You have no reason to lay-out expectations for Obama??
That’s the same as saying you cannot!
At least you have no expectations Don Joe…so how in the heck can you be disappointed.
Safe position.
Oh and your “solution” about working with Congress??
How is that action??????????????????
WTF—you KLOWNS are soooo predictable and hollow.
Here is the way it is———–
The Party is over and the work begins.
And you KLOWNS have zero specific expectations??
YIKES!
The infighting begins:
Democratic Infighting Starts After Election
Wednesday, November 05, 2008
@101
Hussein needed to swing center to steal the election.
“No, he never changed his views or his plans one bit. If you had ever bothered to learn what his positions actually were you’d know.”
He is the KING of CHANGE ever other day come on man.
During the democrat primary he was what he is a far left liberal that was the only way he won.
With a small majority in the senate we will be able to stop the destruction of our country.
“No, you do not have a “samll majority,” you have a small and shrinking minority.”
Yes, you have a small majority in the senate
Our country is split until 2012, God Bless the rest of us.
“Our country has been split since 1992.”
Yes however, nothing like this election will bring on our country.
When he reverts to his socialism ways, turning us into 3 third world country, devastating the military, Stripping out troops of weapons during placement in other countries, binding with the UN and calling it for national security, allowing the UN to occupy our country. Takeover control of our free marketplace. Steal our 401 plans; increase taxes all 75% who pay income tax. Stop saying the pledge of allegiance, as it will offend someone.
He said he will bring us together, total BS his whole life in public has never been helping white people, and he never crossed over in his 140 days as senator.
He will lead like the leadership wants him to far left. He has never shown courage in any part of his life.
If he proceeds with his agenda he wont be our President. We will wait for 120 days to see.
A pig is a pig no matter how you dress him up he won’t change.
Mean while we have 4 years to clean the left out of our party and bring it back to our GOP was.
Cyn.: It’s Clowns, not Klowns. There is always disagreement among the intelligent. Only Republicans march in lockstep over the nearest cliff (Kliff???).
You can shut up and leave anytime now, Cynical. Your insipid posts have served their purpose – we’re done laughing at you. Now you just come off as pathetic and, since you’re just a stupid troll, nobody here is going to feel sorry for you. Beat it, goatfucker.
re 123: Take the Patr off your moniker and substitute an ‘I’ and a ‘D’.
@123 “binding with the UN and calling it for national security, allowing the UN to occupy our country”
Black helicopters, huh? Good grief.
If he’s a man of his word and not the typical lying liberal democrat…
Get the troops out of iraq.
Health care.
Tax cuts for the poor.
Bankrupt the coal industry.
And the KLOWNS kontinue to fail to come up with a cogent, articulated outline of what they expect Obama to do and when.
Outstanding.
Zero expectations…so you won’t be disappointed when 4 years from now your lives are shittier than they are now!
You will kontinue to follow the bloviator of Hope & Change…even when the only Change turns out to be bad.
KLOWNS, you worked hard to get this guy elected…elected to do precisely what??
Give inspirational speeches.
Pullllllllease.
We need action.
What will it be??
Talk about projection.
@128 The usual stupid drivel from Marvin the goatfucker. We’re all done laughing at you and Cynical so you can both leave now, thank you.
Where’s that fucking coward Puddy? I want to see his head explode!
Thanks to carter, there’s only been 1 (one) democrat president since carter. And he wasn’t all that liberal.
Marvin–
If he gets the troops out of Iraq without a clear plan for stability, what will he do when the Middle East turns to shit??
Where will the money come from for Free Health Care? Where will the Doctors & Nurses come from to support the inevitable hypochondriacts who will plague Medical facilities??
How can you CUT taxes for people that don’t even pay taxes?? It’s called welfare…feel-good welfare.
If Obama bankrupts the coal industry, how will we power plants & stay warm when the Middle East blows up because Obama yanks the troops prematurely??
Marvin, I’m afraid you are correct about the agenda of the fringe looney Left. Will they be disappointed when Obama delivers ZERO??
OF COURSE NOT..they have no expectations, so they will not be disappointed.
They will just gulp the Kool-Aid and continue to march for more Change!
(Change==Pocket Change for losers!)
The KLOWNS are mesmerized by Obama’s emotional, proud speeches.
Yet they expect zero so they won’t be disappointed.
Speeches don’t put bread on the table….but they sure do feel good when your life is shit…for a little while.
Typical sockpuppet response.
@130 “Talk about projection.”
Let me assure you, goatfucker, you do not want to talk about projection. Besides, you’re useless to us now. Your projection, as well as your politics, is yesterday’s news. As irrelevant as you are, there’s really no point in learning more about you. Yes, it’s best that you simply leave and don’t come back.
@127
Glad you agree with the rest.
We all know he would do that without any hesitation just waiting to be asked.
@137 “Glad you agree with the rest.”
In your dreams, goat-boy.
The left will blame bush. Just like they have for the last 7 years.
The left will take no responsibility for their failings.
Like biden said, MARK MY WORDS, everything that goes bad, every hurricane, every bridge collapse will be blamed on bush.
How long until the government decides who to spend health care $$ on. Will they spend millions of $$ on terminally ill patients or will they become a cost liability.
Just imagine what happens if obama doesn’t pay to fill the gas tanks and the mortgages of his supporters? How long until they turn on him.
If Obama bankrupts the coal industry, how will we power plants & stay warm when the Middle East blows up because Obama yanks the troops prematurely??
At least the poor people that will be hurt the most can feel good that they aren’t destroying the planet as they can’t afford to heat their houses. And the rich friends of obama can buy carbon credits.
Until it has a negative effect on their lives. Then they will see the truth.
At least the losers will be the ones that voted for obama. Sometimes lessons learned in life are painful.
Whatever.
If I was useless to you, why am I getting your sorry ass to keep replying or writing about me???
Prove what you say, stop replying to me and stop writing about me.
Or prove me right.
Your choice sockpuppet.
hahahahahaha
Cynical @ 133: Bush never had a plan for withdrawal from Iraq leaving behind a stable regime. He had, at best, a “pipe dream”. McCain continued to follow the same “pipe dream”. Best we can do is have an orderly withdrawal over the better part of a year, turning over security to the current government in the process, and hope for the best.
It reminds me of what Kissenger admitted to about a year or so ago: he and Nixon never expected the S. Vietnamese government to survive after the withdrawal of U.S. forces in early 1973. They just hoped it could hold together for four years, or until the next President was in office, so the new President – whoever he was – would get the blame. They kind of got what they wished for – the S. Vietnamese government collapsed a bit earlier than expected, but so did the Nixon administration (Nixon resigning in August 1974). So a little more than two years after the Paris Peace Accords were signed, Saigon fell, but it was under Ford’s watch.
The sad part is that in 4 years some of the kool-aid drinkers aren’t capable of knowing their lives are worse off.
You do have point about none of the ha hooligans bragging about the great CHANGEs that will be coming. It’s almost like they know the truth but are afraid to admit it.
Look how easy they got lied to in the last election while the do-nothing-democrat controlled congress dropped in the polls lower than bush.
It’s already starting.
The “Blame Bush” excuse why obama can’t do anything besides as rhp said, “hope for the best.”
With “hope” like that, where’s the “change???”
Three years from now, regardless of the actual facts, the wingnuts here will be arguing that”
(a) the economic meltdown of 2008 was caused by the Obama administration, and
(b) everything was roses and buttercups during the Bush administration, and
(c) the U.S. economy is doing lousy despite a remarkable improvement between early 2009 and 2011, and it’s all Obama’s fault.
The anger from some of the republicans just keeps coming. This is the last time I’ll post this stuff. It’s just sad.
Addendum to # 144: If you don’t believe any of the above, just look at Rossi’s ad campaign in this recent election. It will be a template for the Republican 2012 election.
Strange you never supply links.
It’s almost as if you make this stuff up.
@ 121
You are hysterical Don Joe.
You have no reason to lay-out expectations for Obama??
Oh, I have every reason to lay out my expectations. And, as a matter of fact, I have done precisely that in several comments both in this thread and in others.
How is it that you’ve missed these comments?
Hey bluejohn
How do you feel about black panthers intimidating voters in philly?
Is that the kind of hate you approve of?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU
@ 147
You need a link to Sean Hannity’s drivel? That’s where you get your talking points.
Already making the “blame Bush” excuses, even before obama takes office.
Priceless.
Brilliant reply.
You offer me a link to the site you believe I get my talking points from.
Let me guess, you voted for obama.
Brilliant reply.
You asked a question that could have been answered in five seconds with a google search. I figured any answer more complicated was more than you can handle.
Hey, aren’t you that tough guy that talked tough but was afraid to meet me?
Then you started talking abut having friends that were seals once you realized you couldn’t back up your tough talk?
That was a funny exchange that night.
How sweet, Marvin and Cynical have found each other. Maybe they can free the goats now. I’m certain that by now the poor critters have known enough grief to last several lifetimes.
@ 154
Hey, aren’t you that tough guy that talked tough but was afraid to meet me?
Nope.
You know, there’s an irony here. We’re having a discussion with a wingnut. On a blog. Over the internet. About whether or not it’s a good idea for the government to be investing in stuff that might not have an immediate commercial payoff.
Keep me in your thoughts sockpuppet.
Probably missed them because they did not exist…or were so feel-good lacking in critical analysis.
In other words you pulled them outta yer ass!
C’mon Don Joe–
PRECISELY what do you expect Obama to do??
NOTHING???
Keep the seat warm??
If he screws up and gets criticized, will you provide him cover by screaming “RACISM”!!
That will really help move America forward.
You KLOWNS are hilarious.
You guy wins and you have no expectations.
My expectations of McCain were:
1) Remove ALL Budget earmarks.
2) Lower Capital Gains Tax to 7%.
3) Keep a strong Middle East presence.
ANd you have NOTHING!
Hilarious.
Today’s U.S. stocks on the day after presidential election the lowest in history to welcome obama.
Now check your 401 next Q
HaHahaHa, you wanted it you got it!
Wait until the broken promises come into play suckers.
“ANd you have NOTHING!”
Not true. We still have you to ridicule. That’ll suffice for now, goatfucker.
President-elect Obama will nominate the next three Supreme Court justices over the next few years. Heh, they’ll probably be a black Muslim, Bill Ayers and some badass Black Panther. Think about it. That must really suck for you.
@ 159
My expectations of McCain were:
1) Remove ALL Budget earmarks.
2) Lower Capital Gains Tax to 7%.
3) Keep a strong Middle East presence.
Let me see if I i got this straight. You expected John McCain to do all that all by himself, with, say, the advice and consent of any members of another branch of government? You expected John McCain to do this through sheer dictatorial authority? You expected John McCain to effectively violate the most important statement in his oath of office?
No wonder you think I have nothing.
Cynical is so naive – McCain was going to benefit his buddies – the lobbyists he rode into town with. His judgement was suspect – escpecially after selecting Palin – here is Faux news on the selection of Palin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJr3XRedYU
“@92;
Which president/party got us into Vietnam? Who held congress during the Vietnam era? How many deaths for this war for NO net result? Did Carter make things better? How? Figure out how many military deaths by either party in power since WW2? Read history, and then check back with your “logic”.”
Farmer Fred, if you do make it back. Here’s some history for ya: Kennedy got us into Viet Nam, but had already stipulated a drawdown and pull-out in his ’64 platform.
Johnson escalated the war, and lost his party’s support making history in backing out of the ’68 nomination. This was due solely to his pro-war stance (name one time in history the Repubs have denied an encumbant because he was pro-war).
Nixon, ah yes. The master of escalation. Not just in Viet Nam, but Cambodia and Laos history details his grand industrial military complex orgy.
Please, by all means, let’s check history.
At least we now know what you consider good supreme court justices.
@100, Don Joe:
“Things were bad under Carter. The real question is, might the not have been worse if not for some of the specific policy actions that Carter took? Did he not have to deal with a larger mess than he should have had it not been for some rather bad policies from Nixon and Ford?” YES, all presidents make these decisions to avoid worse scenarios, probably every day. I don’t think anyone tries to make our nation worse off. Carter and Bush2 were just shitty at it.
“In a similar vein, does not President-elect Obama face a crisis that was greatly deepened by some very bad policy decisions made during the present administration?” Yes, not disputing that.
Based on your reasoning, in the same vein, shouldn’t Reagan get credit for the bad policies from Carter? Nixon for the bad policies of LBJ and the other “messiah” Kennedy? If you believe Volker absolves Carter of stupidity, what %(ie, small) does Bush get from Greenspan (he should have raised interest rates when the economy was booming, but Jobs first, every one a 4k sq ft. house, ya know).
In most markets, the higher the high, the lower the low (oil is the most current example).
Shallowness of discussions? At least I am man enough to look at both side of the political spectrum and see the ramifications of past mistakes and possible future directions.
My basic premise is this: If the D’s “rule” in the ways that some on this forum suggest, they will repeat the same mistakes as the R’s did 4 years ago, and the pendulum will go the other way. Power is fleeting in response to the fate of uncontrollable events, and blame carries more weight than success in the eyes of the voting public.
@164; I appreciate your response, but you can’t refute my comments as to the post they were directed to. History backs me up, post the actual numbers to my questions (refuting them?) and at least make a case.
All in all, the election doesn’t hurt me that much; Gregoire is survivable (as long as I am not on the viaduct when it goes down) and sets up McKenna in 2012, Obama has potential, Ag is currently good, Dorn is winning, and my home district is still solidly R (even with lots of outside D money in local leg race).
My only sore spot is Goldmark, he never did answer 2 emails I sent to him, and in a meeting with DNR employees this evening, they said HE didn’t even stop by their office(s) during the entire campaign. Most had never met the man. Sounds like the failure he was as the state director of Agriculture (a whopping 4 month tenure).
Have a nice day (evening),
Farmer Fred
@ 166
I don’t think anyone tries to make our nation worse off. Carter and Bush2 were just shitty at it.
But you’re assiduously avoiding the question of causation. Did things deteriorate under Carter because of Carter’s policies or despite Carter’s policies?
I can cite specific policy decisions that Bush II made, trace the causal mechanisms in play, and conclude that Bush II’s policies were, in fact, causal. You haven’t bothered to do the same thing with Carter’s policies.
Based on your reasoning, in the same vein, shouldn’t Reagan get credit for the bad policies from Carter?
Not until you’re willing to cite those policies, and trace the causal chain through known economic mechanisms. You have to first establish the conclusion that Carter’s policies were, in fact, bad, and you have to do so without relying on the post hoc fallacy.
Which specific Carter policies were bad, and why were they bad? What’s the causal chain that allows us to reach that conclusion?
Shallowness of discussions?
Yes. You addressed my second question about Nixon’s policies, but have completely ignored the first question I asked in that same paragraph.
I love the “What do you expect Obama to do?” thing.
I would expect him to work with the Democratic majority Congress to implement the proposals he has laid out in detail fro the last two years.
I would expect him to orchestrate our withdrawal from Iraq.
I would expect him to sign the Edward M. Kennedy Universal Health Care bill that will be passed soon, thus fulfilling his promise of universal health care.
I would expect you to read the rest at http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
Of course, he dioes have a plan for stability, so the premise of Cynical’s question has turned to shit. http://www.barackobama.com
No one is promising, legislating or implementing free health care, so teh premise of Cynical’s question has turned to shit.
It’s called a refundable tax credit, so the premise of Cynical’s question has turned to shit. It is not tied to the income tax Cynical loves obsess about. It offsets any tax, such as the payroll tax that eats 6% of all of the working poor’s income. There’s no one in this country who pays no tax whatsoever. Also, McCain’s health care plan was centered around a refundable tax credit that would be available to the same people who pay no income tax. Was McCains’ health care plan “welfare?”
123 Patriot
Name five issues on which he has changed his position. Link us to a statement of each initial position and a statement of each alleged change.
I’ve got eight of McCain’s changed positions here, footnoted with links:
http://www.mccainfactcheck.com.....ions.shtml
123 Patriot
Huh?
You mean like, say, putting lipstick on it? I didn’t know you hate Sarah Palin.
Please do. Please, please do.
@123
You never seemed interested in them before why now. It’s over he bought it. Now is the time for us to sit back and watch him fail. The stock market in the last two days is a great indicator where he will lead you fools.
You bought a empty suit and now your trying your best to prop him up good luck.
@167 Don Joe;
Carter – Grain embargo against the USSR. Leveraged the short term future of american ag in order to cover his shortcomings on that aspect of international diplomacy. Basically used americas #1 industry as a pawn to appease the left. WE lost our place as the largest exporter of food, for a policy that did no harm to the USSR. It took Reagan and the slightly shady Wilson congressman to put the hurt on the USSR (w/o realizing of course the future ramifications of our actions in the 1990’s and 2001). Carters mis-handling of the Iran situation comes to mind also (we are still dealing with that).
My interpretation of the cycles stand, Obama is “buying” at the bottom, same as Clinton (and Reagan) did. Good for them, that is life.
Carter helped “put” ag in a downward cycle, just by one large non-functional foreign policy decision. Bush2 will be blamed (correctly so) for running deficits to finance a war (Iraq version) that helped to create todays economic “cycle” situation (as will Greenspan to a degree).
I must confess, however, that my area seems to be riding above the national tide (we are still an mainly ag based economy), so the incumbent R’s all held their positions. Ag will cycle down over the next couple of years, just like everything else.
On your comment on my shallow interpretations of history. It seems everybody on this forum “hits” only the points they like of an individuals post, it is a natural human trait. I stand by my posts, and must state that I respect your replies and the time that goes into them. But, sadly so far am not in awe of your intellectual prowess. I am sure you feel the same about me.
Have a nice day (and let it snow, snow, snow!)
Farmer Fred
@ 173
Carter – Grain embargo against the USSR.
Wow. I asked for bad economic policies, and your first response was a foreign policy decision. Even if I grant that this wasn’t all that smart a foreign policy decision (which is not a given under the circumstances even if, given our 20/20 hindsight, it turns out not to have been all that effective), there’s very little reason that this one policy had far-reaching economic effects.
So, we lost our place as the world’s largest exporter of grain. Are you saying that grain exports were a sufficiently large percentage of GDP for this embargo to have been a significant factor in the recession of the early 80’s? If so, that’s really an argument I’d like to see.
My interpretation of the cycles stand, Obama is “buying” at the bottom, same as Clinton (and Reagan) did.
On what? Foreign policies? So far, your interpretation of the cycles still stands on nothing but a post hoc fallacy.
It seems everybody on this forum “hits” only the points they like of an individuals post,
Everybody ignores the flaws in their arguments, so that means there are no flaws in ours? I’m afraid I really don’t see the point here.
But, sadly so far am not in awe of your intellectual prowess.
Is that the point of this discussion? I thought the point was to come up with a cogent argument that leads to a conclusion one wants to reach. Frankly, I think you’d do well to spend less time thinking about my intellectual prowess and more time thinking about the flaws in your own argument.
I am sure you feel the same about me.
I have no opinion about your intellectual prowess, because I really don’t have sufficient evidence upon which to base such an opinion. I’m merely noting that your argument has been deeply flawed, and that you really haven’t done a whole lot to repair the flaws.
I am starting to form an opinion about your intellectual honesty, but I think that’s a different question from “prowess.”