There are trillions from the Feds for corporate oligarchs, but what about the kiddies right here in Washington state?
Gov. Christine Gregoire’s office is considering vast cuts in state spending that Democratic leaders once would have considered unthinkable, including more than $1 billion in funding for public schools.
—snip—
“If we were to cut every single dime that we give to higher education — all the money to the community colleges, all the money to the universities, everything we spend on financial aid — we still have a $2 billion problem,” said state Sen. Craig Pridemore, D-Vancouver, vice-chairman of the Senate Ways and Means Committee.
“The kinds of things we’ll talk about cutting are going to shock a lot of people,” he said.
Um, yes, we will be shocked.
Just to be flippant and hysterical, we didn’t freaking vote for a Democratic President, a Democratic Congress, a Democratic Legislature and a Democratic governor to watch the K-12 and higher education system get demolished. Good lord. To be clear, I realize Pridemore is simply trying to offer perspective here, but Crikey!
It is true that things are quite serious, and that multiple constituent groups will be trying to avoid the meat axe. That’s politics, and it’s not clear at this point what relief will be coming from the federal government. So it looks to be a wild and woolly session.
Everything else being equal, a quality education system is the foundation of a healthy economy and a civilized society. Conservatives often don’t want to understand this and start prattling on about “waste,” of which there is undoubtedly some, but in the end quality teachers on the front line is the key ingredient that makes for success. And quality teachers have to be paid a salary that is higher than “you’re kidding, right?”
Interestingly, tax increases are in fact contraindicated by the economic situation, not to mention a campaign pledge made by Governor Chris Gregoire, so the broad possibilities seem to be federal assistance or a dramatic dismantling of the K-12 and higher education systems.
Not sure what exactly the latter would mean; most likely much larger classes, severe cutbacks in things like extra-curricular and transportation, and far fewer FTE’s for colleges and universities. Not a way to grow the economy. Plus when you start messing with people’s kids they can get a wee bit crabby.
For instance, if the Legislature axes a bunch of K-12 funding, I think we all know what they can do with their WASL test.
Talk about funny. I hope they have to lay off
every teacher. They suck right along with
their liberal influence. Ha ha ha ha.
Waaaah what happened to all the money? Waaah
They haven’t seen anything yet.
@1–Proving beyond all doubt that a lack of education is a horrible thing to do to a child.
we didn’t freaking vote for a Democratic President, a Democratic Congress, a Democratic Legislature and a Democratic governor to watch the K-12 and higher education system get demolished.
——————-
And to think that just a few weeks ago some people were primarily focused on the argument that technically we really didn’t even have a budget deficit.
I’m not sure what the surprise is here. Gregoire ran on the solemn pledge she would not raise taxes, despite a looming budget deficit AND every indication the economy would only get worse (and hence the deficit would only get worse – which it has in leaps and bounds).
Shouldn’t you have been raising these concerns with Gregoire during the campaign when it was evident that big cuts in education were a certainty because of her pledges?
Agreed, let the money pit WASL die first before you cut teachers, curricula, and academic programs.
The Bush administration has given more trillions to the corporate oligarchs in the last four months than it would cost to adopt all of the new programs that Obama has promised for the next four years.
Let’s hope that Obama does not also turn out to be the lap dog of the corporate oligarchs, as Bush has been for the last eight years.
As public law enforcement learned in the late 19th Century, you have to make an effort to find and punish the parties guilty of a crime, otherwise, there is no deterrent power in your efforts.
Top-down baillouts won’t work. We should let the financial establishment crash and burn. They are no longer functional. There are respected economists who agree with me. The mass of humanity has nothing anyway. They would not notice any change in their lives if all the banks fail.
And for those who think that my suggestion is too radical, I would like to remind you that the world’s financial system has already failed.
Capitalism is as doomed as Communism.
@2 Sorry, but I was the fucking 6th grade
spelling champion. Rossi tried to tell you
tards about the money problems, but you
were too stupid. I hope everyone in the government gets laid off. We don’t need them.
I’d love to see my property taxes cut by 80%
at least. I don’t have kids, why should I pay
for schools? The people with kids don’t help
pay for my boat.
The next phase is chaos, followed by military dictatorship, followed by another Dark Age.
Welcome to the shining city on a hill! Except it’s surrounded by Klieg lights and barbed wire.
re 8: People like you are why there are terrorists in Mumbai shooting-up the hotels.
@8- kids will be filling your prescription for meds in your old age. Better hope they can read, count, and add.
@7 No Lucy, capitalism is just fine, except
when you force socialism upon the lenders to
make sure everyone is “equal”. Then it doesn’t
work. The coming depression is just what this
country needs. The mentality where most of the people think everything should be free needs
to be cured. The cure is just around the corner.
12 – Nothing was “forced” on them you shithead!
And that monkey you voted for twice is passing out checks to them.
What “healthy economy?” We haven’t had one since Clinton left office. Never forget that all this shit is the natural and inevitable consequence of Wingnut Whack-O-Nomics.
Some Questions:
What’s the best way to demonstrate that a student has learned something?
Who is responsible for learning?
Who is responsible for demonstrating this learning?
@1 This is your fault and the fault of every other jackass who voted Republican.
The tax system is freaking broken.
All those breaks for Boeing and they only outsourced huge portions of their new plane to other countries.
And those countries are tanking on their responsibilities to the point where even Boeing management is fed up with them.
We enabled them.
We’ve had a surge in population growth and the State is not able to keep up.
If people can’t change their minds on the income tax and other tax reform, then I guess a huge cut in services might wake them up. Pretty sad.
@15- depends on the age of the student.
@18
Interesting response. How should age matter?
Regardless of your answer, what if you were to just pick a grade (or age) and then try answering. I’d like to hear what people think.
I’m afraid your “nail the rich to the wall” income tax idea won’t fly.
An income tax makes great sense in the abstract, but it would ruffle feathers of the corporate oligarchs around here. The best way to proceed is for the state to up its sales tax, from 6.5% to 7.5%. That modest “dime on ten dollars” increase would close the hole in the budget immediately, and services (including public education) wouldn’t be cut to those in need.
The reasons this makes sense are almost too numerous to mention. Our political leaders have the mandate for that kind of incremental increase in an existing tax. The people who need the most services would pay the least, as sales taxes are progressive (the more expensive disposable – and the rich choose to buy the most). Prescriptions and food are exempt, so the poor wouldn’t be paying more for what they need to survive. The public has shown it has an appetite for more sales taxes for vital public services (eg, Prop. 1), so bumping up that kind of tax would have broad public support. The big corporations around here (BA, MSFT, AMZN) rely on out-of-state markets and customers who aren’t sensitive to Washington sales tax increases – that’s a long way of saying the business community would support it.
The WASL? Even if Dorn is successful in convincing the governor and legislature to switch to a different assessment–big “if”–it won’t happen quickly. In the meantime, we’re stuck with the WASL.
Will we find out if there is a correlation between funding and WASL scores? I don’t think so. Notice that in the Times article, Chip Kimball, Lake Washington School Distict’s superindendent, says that cutting 1-728 money would mean, among other things, “the end of some programs for struggling students.” Read: WASL prep. Would that make WASL scores go down? Not necessarily–we don’t know the relationship between the WASL as a graduation requirement and the on-time graduation rate. Districts don’t track the dropout rate. They only track students who’ve officially withdrawn by filing the necessary paperwork. In my experience, many, if not most, dropouts just disappear, without leaving a valid address or phone number.
In a 2002 study funded by the Gates Foundation Dr. Jay P. Greene found that the on-time graduation for Washington State was 67%. That’s 15% lower than reported by the OSPI. We don’t know what’s happened to the dropout rate since then.
Will cuts in school funding cause the dropout rate to go up? If so, it would only compound the teenage unemployment rate, which is most certainly going to climb in this economic climate.
@15: IMO it’s writing and speaking that demonstrate learning, which you can’t score and aggregate quantitatively.
Learning is the responsibility of everyone: students are responsible for their own learning, parents for their children’s learning, and schools for making sure all students have the opportunity to learn to a level that guarantees equal opportunity, public safety, and at least stability (if not progress) in society.
When she balances the budget, you wackos will complain about the cuts. When Obama cuts the budget you again will complain.
You liberal wackos are never happy, you live to be complainers.
Until you take your heads out of the sand and instead of talk do something like pay down our debts. Shut up, you’re the problem with empty words. LOL!
#1. Immediately cancel all monies wasted on school sports programs.
Noone seriously believes we can cut the prisons or beach the ferries.
Under WASTATE Constitution, the state cannot make any real cuts in K-12 education.
I think the time has come for a law suit. If the courts decide we MUST support the schools, then I believe the courts would have to mandate a tax increase.
OR we could just close the State Colleges and vie for the Mississippi Prize.
22 – Practically all people who don’t worship the ground Bush walks on believe in education. This state is in the bottom third in per pupil K-12 spending. If anything needs to improve it’s that.
So fewer breaks for big business and an income tax means more money for the schools. It’s that simple.
@20–does the WASL measure learning, or something else? And I think we can all agree that drop out rates are important. Students can’t learn (however it’s measured) if they aren’t in the classroom.
@21–I agree learning has a lot to do with the ability to communicate. As for responsibility, I see you take a macro view and from that view I agree with you. What if I asked, instead of who is responsible for learning, I ask: when does learning occur, or where does learning occur? Or maybe, what is the micro view on the responsibility of learning?
@24 SJ, the courts can’t order the Legislature to raise taxes or spend money. The justices will say those are political decisions for which the only recourse is the ballot box.
@25
What are YOU doing to help?
NOTHING ! Just complain like the little people you are.
BTW She’s over spent and you wacko’s where happy.
So fewer breaks for big business and an income tax means more money for the schools. It’s that simple.
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“I said it four years ago, I’ll say it again now: The last thing you want to do is go for taxes when you’ve got an economic downturn,” Gregoire said.
From: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/24403384.html
I assume people supported Gregoire because they trusted her judgment and leadership when the deficit was looming and likely to get larger. I don’t know why this would change now after less than a month.
@26–Does the Washington Assessment of Student Learning (WASL) measure learning?
It’s supposed to test whether students have achieved 10th-grade levels of skill in reading, writing, math and science. Is the assessment reliable? Some argue it is; some argue it isn’t.
For me, what is more to the point is that passing the Writing WASL and Reading WASL is a graduation requirement. We simply don’t know what effect the WASL has had on the dropout rate.
The 2002 Greene study had the on-time graduation rate in Washington at 67%, which was 4% below the national average. In our state, Latinos were graduating at a rate of 47% and African-Americans at 53%. In all the debate about the WASL, these grim statistics have been ignored.
Gregoire needs to cut all state salaries by 15 per cent and tell the union to go shit in the bay
NO OTHER equitible solution … remember the farce of her 1 per cent cut during the campaign… what the hell is she smoking?
I am a liberal lefty, but, in times like this PRETEND is not a good policy…. call it a depression and talk hard core reality … nothing else works
Getting honest and upfront and mean might be a better track
Ruining schools rather that cutting bureaucrats is bull shit too.
Brian @ 19- At early ages, through most of grade school, it is the parents’ primary responsibility with an assist from tne schools. In later grades, certainly by high school, it is the student’s primary responsibility, again with an assist from the school.
I spent almost a decade working in public education before I got smart and got out. There’s a lot that can be cut to save $$$ on the district level that I saw that won’t affect your snowflake’s education.
* Supts buying new electronic toys nearly every month. Whack that discretionary budget. You don’t need a big screen TV in your office, nor do you need a blackberry to keep in touch with your staff. Heck I saw one tiny rural district spend $15k on new servers, UPS’s and licenses just because the supt wanted Microsoft Exchange and it setup exactly like he had in his old big city district.
* Teachers buying computers, software, “smart boards”, and other electronic gizmos to help the children learn better – and just letting them sit idle and collect dust instead of using them. A school DOES NOT need new computers every school year.
* Cut teacher stipends. You shouldn’t receive extra pay to do something beyond parroting a lesson out of a textbook. And yes, that’s exactly what I saw many teachers doing. God forbid if you deviate from the textbook. If you think teachers are underpaid, check out this link http://www.effwa.org/main/arti.....le_id=1067
* Make sports pay to play. Uniforms, coach stipends, league fees – make it all come out of the pockets of parents who want Junior to be the next football star.
Gregoire created this mess by overspending the past 4 years.
Vote HELL NO on all tax increases!!
The better way is the MAP assessment, from the Northwest Evaluation Association. We use it in my district K-10 and it’s far more flexible and far more useful than the WASL has ever tried to be. The MAP costs $10-$14 per student:
http://www.piton.org/content/D.....ing_r2.pdf
…while the WASL costs $70:
http://wateachers.blogspot.com.....-rise.html
This was, I think, Terry Bergeson’s biggest failure as SPI; she created a measurement tool equivelent to a full-body catscan, and just as costly, when what was really needed was a better thermometer.
If the result of the financial crisis is that we finally get the better test, that’s a good thing.
@25
Do you have to pay HA for your postings?
Idiot !!!!
We could throw 10 billion at public eduction HERE and have the same results.
Money never supports the kids only the Government and their hired union employees that care more about their pocketbook then the kids.
@27 Roger
If the constituion says we must support K-12 doesn’t that imply we must raise the finds to do so? I know the courts, federal I assume, have taken drastic action elsewhere, did that NOT include funding?
What oif the court said we must do this, gave the legislature a fixed time to respond OR impliment an across the board increase? If the legislature failed, wouldn’t the admin have to follow the court?
Just like in the auto industry, management sucks in education, too. I can’t speak to the problems in the auto industry, but as far as education goes, the problem is that the managers (including politicians and many teachers) have tried to run schools like a business. The problem with this is that education never produces a return on investment in the short term. That ROI comes later. In other words, the managers themselves mistaken what is meant by “learning” and often substitute it with things like FTE, graduation rates, scores on exams that don’t really capture what it means to learn. As a consequence, the newest and best thing, regardless of it’s long term effect, is pursued in the short run.
Well, teachers aren’t the ones who buy these things. Administrators have to approve them. But the point is most certainly valid as far as warehousing goes–lots get bought, and then stored.
Now, a good teacher basically needs a stick and some dirt to be able to teach–but only if there are small enough class sizes. My experience has been that administrators, in the search of larger class sizes, often push for the purchase of these new gizmos, and in the end it’s a waste.
This is a confusing statement. If you mean that teachers should only be paid for what they do as it relates to their job description, that of course makes sense. But this issue then relates to my earlier questions about what is learning, who, where, when, how should learning take place? I teach at a community college, and my employment contract actually doesn’t include what I’m suppose to do. Seriously. My attitude is that it’s my job to create a learning environment so students can change how they think and communicate. If they do or don’t, it’s not something I can completely control. So for me, it’s their responsibility to learn.
Unfortunately, though, that’s not all that I do. Because Administrators aren’t very good at what they do, teachers are left as the ‘goat’ to blame student failures upon. So, to defend themselves, teachers get involved with other governance issues on campus but are not paid for this. So in effect, teachers do more than what they are paid for.
I can’t speak for K-12. If they do this, they aren’t teaching anymore. But I suspect if they do this there are more complicating influences that have led them there.
I think sports have a place in school. Good coaches can teach kids to take important but positive risks, to work with others, and probably most importantly, and least practiced, is dealing with powerful emotions in the moment (eg., the angry retaliation against a player who cheated). But unfortunately, the way sports are treated are more socially reinforced and not well managed.
@31 NO Free Lunch
I doubt Gregoire can make an across the board cut without violating a number of laws. For example, salaries at the uW are mostly paid by non-UW sources that set their rates to match our scale. I doubt there is a legal way to cut those salaries.
You tards are in charge 100%. This is so god damn funny I can’t tell you the entertainment
value. Two years since the democrats took over control of the checkbook and the whole
world is caving in. GO DEMOCRATS.
@38
Every employee at the UW should take a pay cut to help the deficit.
You have a obligation to help us out in time of need.
headless @7,8 & happy @31, spew the crux of the biscuit. This is going to get a lot more ugly, and depression is not too strong a possible scenario. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, eh. We don’t need our ‘leaders’ babbling happy talk and aroma therapy solutions. Drastic measures are called for, not requests from the other Washington for freshly printed cabbage (or carrots, as it were).
Hey Jim, donate 15% of your salary to the state as your part of helping us out when in need. Don’t you have an obligation too?
Well, what’s the quickest and easiest way to create a complacent, obedient low wage work force?
By bailing out the corporations who have failed their businesses, and cutting the funding for the educations provided to the next generation of workers.
And @8, Mark – you may not have kids going to schools, but you did when you were a kid. Think of it as paying for your education after the fact. After all, you wouldn’t want to be charged with accepting a handout now, would you?
@42
I already paid your wages.Time for you to give back like a good a little progressive. LOL!!!
Take but never give back is a progressives slogan. LOL!!
I had written this big long diatribe about all the promises democrats have made over the years in our state but broken, but that was said, and ignored, so many times during the election cycle why even go there.
Why? Over and over dems have been told what was going to happen to their budgets if times got lean even a bit. How all the spending would snowball quickly into huge deficits. Oh I’m sorry, deficit is politically incorrect in our state. What do you all call it when it’s caused by a dem? Oh …. “revenue shortfall.” See when this exact same thing happens under a republican you call it fiscal irresponsibility. You call it what it is a budget deficit. When democrats are responsible it’s a “revenue shortfall.” Either way you look at it, if you are honest with yourself, you can call it what it is, poor planning.
Now I’ll get all this gobbledy gook about how this is somebody else’s fault. How Bush is somehow responsible. How, with our abundance of state resources, phenomenal trade, huge tech and aerospace industry, our agriculture, we constantly manage to not be able to fund the necessities. Ooops sorry about that last bit. It’s got to hurt.
@37 The democrats ruined the auto industry
with their unreasonable mileage standards
causing massive retooling and then you have the unions demanding more and more money.
Bunch of failed liberal ideas in action.
That’s right. mark. If they only built more Hummers, no one would want those little Priuses.
@46
Europe and the US both experienced the oil crunch in the 70’s. As a result, Europe imposed high fuel and oil taxes, the US did not. Instead, the US created mileage standards.
Of course in Europe, the market adjusted and people bought cars with better mileage performance.
So to blame the democrats for imposing mileage standards is an error in over-simplification, because the mileage standards can be met as Europe has, albeit in a different route.
That isn’t flippant or hysterical, that’s is why we voted the way we voted.
@46
I had 3 new-ish GM trucks pass by me on on my way home from work tonight, one had a tail light out, one had a head light out, the last one had its backup lights on while going 25mph forward.
GM is tanking for a lot of reasons, but CAFE Standards aren’t one of them.
The democrats ruined the auto industry
with their unreasonable mileage standards
causing massive retooling and then you have the unions demanding more and more money.
Bunch of failed liberal ideas in action.
———————
The Big Three ruined themselves for a variety of reasons. On the subject of mileage, when gas prices shot up people abandoned the SUV and truck market in droves because they couldn’t afford to drive them. The market could not have been more plain spoken on this.
@51, 46
When gas prices were up dealerships wouldn’t let people trade in cars with V-8’s!
@40 Jim
Why is cutting the wages of someone making 30k a better idea than raising the taxes of someone who makes 300k?
53. Proud to be SeattleJew Today spews:
SJ–
You and the others from the LEFT always seem to neglect the value of BENEFITS and PAID TIME-OFF when characterizing Government Workers compensation. You conveniently focus onthe SALARY and ignore the value of the PENSION, Employer’s portion of SS, Medical & Dental Insurance etc. AND the Sick Leave, Holidays, Vacation etc.
If you want to have an honest discussion, let’s start with an honest representation of a State Workers TOTAL COMPANSATION.
In addition, in case you have forgotten, State Employees are PUBLIC SERVANTS! Right?
Why should they benefit in these difficult economic times?? In times of DEFLATION, they actually benefit while the Private Sector is laying off and cutting back. Gimmee a break SJ…you are nothing more than a spoiled, arrogant member of ASS holes (Academic Snort & Sneer) groups that feel entitled under the name of higher education.
Shame on you.
Complaining about ‘overspending’ is just a deflection tactic from the real problem: The rich are underpaying.
Tax cuts for middle-class and under amounts to peanuts, whereas, for the wealthy, it amounts to alot of money.
So, whose really cryin’ about taxes?
Lucy @55:
See. It’s somebody else’s fault. It’s not the State govts. fault for ramping spending as far as they possibly could while we were enjoying the excesses of a good economy. NOOooo it’s those rich people. They are the ones to blame. Dang them for owning businesses and employing people. Dang them for having businesses on the tax roles in our state. Dang them for taking risks.
Talk about a deflection….
You are right .. Some of them are bastards, some of them do work the system, but not all. You want to talk about taxes why not true tax reform? Why with you dems is it always “tax the rich”? What party is it in WA that gives the big businesses and owner all these sweetheart deals to stay? I owned my own mildly successful small business in WA State for 6 years. I finally had to close it down because I followed the rules and after all the taxes it just didn’t make sense. You guys don’t “tax the rich” just like republicans don’t. You are entirely beholden to the Oligarchy that is our govt both at the state and national level. Except in WA it’s worse. We’ve had the same party in charge for how long now? yet anytime somebody makes waves, or complains about them, you all go absolutely batshit deriding them.
You’ve gotten what you deserve. Ineffective leadership.
“Every employee at the UW should take a pay cut to help the deficit.
You have a obligation to help us out in time of need.”
Really? How come we don’t all have to chip in, i.e. pay taxes, to get ALL of us out of the whole? Is that because you believe that every single person at UW does nothing of value and that all those students chomping at the bit to get into UW are getting nothing for their money?
@56 Mr. Cynical
is that all?