Oh my God… Seattle P-I capitol correspondent Chris McGann totally sticks it to the grandstanding idiots leading the GOP caucus:
Republican leaders vowed Thursday to protect family farms from the ravages of Washington’s estate tax as they set their sights on killing the so-called death tax.
But they overlooked one important detail — farms are exempt from the estate tax.
You gotta read this piece… it’s hysterical. And keep in mind, that McGann is a reporter, not a columnist — if it sounds like he’s editorializing, well, how could it not sound that way when the Republican leadership is so totally and utterly clueless?
The revised estate tax passed last year exempts the entire value of all agricultural land and equipment… in addition to a $2 million exemption on other assets.
That fact was all but lost in the fanfare as Republicans in the House and Senate joined forces to promote their agenda for the coming Legislative session, a “contract with the State of Washington,” designed to restore trust in government and improve the quality of life.
Senate Minority Leader Mike Hewitt, R-Walla Walla, said the estate tax would be a top priority because it’s particularly hard on agribusiness.
“Their land is worth so much money,” he said.
Um… it’s an unlimited deduction. According to Department of Revenue Spokesman Mike Gowrylow, not a single family farm will be lost to the estate tax.
Nonetheless, Rep. Mike Armstrong, R-Wenatchee, called the effect of the estate tax on family farms “an atrocity.”
“When you look at farms and you see the amount of property that it takes to farm and the amount of equipment and storage facilities it takes to farm, it adds up pretty quick,” Armstrong said.
It’s an unlimited deduction!
Sen. Jim Honeyford, R-Sunnyside, said growers and producers who fuel the state’s largest industry are “hammered by the high cost of government programs that create obstacles.
“Taxes are literally eating up our family farms,” he said.
What part of “UNLIMITED DEDUCTION” don’t these guys understand? Did they even bother to read last year’s bill before they voted against it? Um… apparently, no:
When asked if they had overlooked the farm exemption — the Republican panel was stymied.
“I think (the exemption) was based around maybe hobby farms, not necessarily large-scale farms,” said House Minority Leader Richard DeBolt, R-Chehalis. “I haven’t seen any language that would help any of the farmers in my district.”
Hey Richard… try reading the fucking bill! That’s what we pay you for, isn’t it?
Well, at least one of the R’s showed a touch of political savvy.
Rep. Ed Orcutt, R-Kalama, changed the subject.
Hmm. “Angry Ed” sounds like he could be one of our trolls.
Quite frankly, I’m stunned. Either the state GOP has elected an amazingly stupid, misinformed, and lazy leadership team — even by Republican standards — or they are simply all a bunch of conscienceless, bald faced liars. And if McGann sounded a bit snide and disrespectful in the way he covered this pathetic performance, it’s because the GOP leaders disrespected him and his fellow journalists by treating them as if they were as stupid as the R’s apparently believe voters to be.
If this is the GOP’s idea of restoring trust in government, it’s gonna be a long time coming.
UPDATE:
In the thread, reader Proud to be an Ass comments on the GOP’s “sheer mendacity.”
This event should be the subject of op-ed pieces from now till November.
Absolutely.
The news media should understand… they totally dissed you. The GOP caucus leaders apparently have so little respect for the Olympia press corps that they didn’t even bother tasking a staffer with fact checking their bullshit rhetoric before calling a press event. (Or, they simply lied.)
How can the Republican leadership be trusted to set the state’s agenda when they can’t even be trusted to explain to the public exactly what their agenda is?
OK, I was gonna post but, dammit, I can’t stop laughing…..
OK, I can’t resist. This is the quote that got me started.
“I have fourth- and fifth-generation farmers in my district that are not going to be able to hand it down because their kids aren’t going to be able to pay the taxes on it to continue farming,” Rep. Mike Armstrong, R-Wenatchee, said.
Mike, you need a windectomy. It is a specialized surgery where a glass window is placed in your abdomen, so that you can see where you are going with your head up your ass! OMG ROFLMAO!
I can’t wait for Cyniclown, Alphabet Soup and Amused by Liberals to try and explain this away. Talk about a cluster-fuck! This proves that Wingnuts have no clue, never had a clue and won’t be in possession of a clue anytime soon. I have a $5 bill that says there is no mention of this little SNAFU in (un)SoundPolitics.
Is stupidity reason enough for a recall?
This event should be the subject of op-ed pieces from now till November. Sheer mendacity.
Doesnt matter, the entire death tax should be eliminated!
That… if very, very funny!
And it got even better reading the article. I hope the Herald picks up on this.
@ 4: No, Chuck. It is an estate tax. The person who once owned the assets is dead. If we could in fact somehow tax “death” itself, there is always the collection problem.
And it does mattter. It shows how utterly stupid these GOP pols are. A whole group of experienced legislators calling for the “end” of something that was just recently legislated out of existence. Come’on Chuck, how stupid is that?
Must be something in the water in rural counties.
2.
That was a pretty lame attempt, Chuck.
I know you gotta hard climb here, but at least get some rope out.
@4, I mean.
Sorry, MLF.
Stop and think for one moment. The repugs got everybody’s attention on this, so what are they trying to slip by when everybody’s laughing on this?
I agree the repug’s are crooks, but not all of them are stupid. Just something to think about, and watch for.
When average folks think of the Democratic Party, they immediately put their hand on their wallet! Kind of an involuntary reaction.
I get Goldy’s point. It is rather humorous, isn’t it.
However, some of those comments like Jim Honeyford relates to ALL taxes imposed on farms in Washington and the high cost of regulation. Goldy tries to spin this into his basket of R ineptness. Frams are highly regulated and taxed in Washington..no doubt. I agree it’s important to the continuity of family farms that estate tax be avoided….but to compete with the Chinese & others, other taxes must be reduced too…as well as unnecessary regulation.
“Either the state GOP has elected an amazingly stupid, misinformed, and lazy leadership team – even by Republican standards – or they are simply all a bunch of conscienceless, bald faced liars. ”
Umm Goldy, I think BOTH are correct.
Whole new meaning to the agri term bullshit.
C – take a closer look at the pile behind you.
A farmer operates exactly like a business in the center of town. All expenses of production are deducted from revenue from sales as income.
Volia net income which can be federally taxed, itemized schedule, since there is no Wa. state income tax.
Land is taxed, according to assesed values, by the county. Just like a metro home. BUT, since assessors are elected in the rural counties the farm land is usually on an old schedule at far less the current value.
Little perk for the home town folks. And in those counties everyone knows everyone persoaly or in the third / forth person- often by extended family.
Farm use fuel is held in farm use only tanks, tax exempt. All the old, new, used eqipment is depreciated at fast schedules and said deductions used agains income- as any city business.
At one time I helped run family acres in the Columbia Basin, 700 acres, so there may be some changes in recent tax stuff.
But to say farmers are unfairly burdeded vis a vis all other business is bull poop. AKA shit.
Here’s a suggestion:
Count the number of people with college degrees in our leglislature.
Group these results by 1) party affiliation 2) region
I have no idea how this will come out….but given the post, it might be interesting…
“Either the state GOP has elected an amazingly stupid, misinformed, and lazy leadership team – even by Republican standards – or they are simply all a bunch of conscienceless, bald faced liars. “???
I’m gonna go with the bunch of conscienceless, bald faced liars choice, it fits the national pattern.
This is funny. And inbreeding was bound to take its toll on the GOP eventually. But what’s wacked about this is that these fools sat there and did this and the halfwit chickenhawks on the east side of the mountain are gonna fall for it. The GOP has figured out that if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes truth. We need to start engaging them immediately on this crap. Where were our Democratic leaders? They should have been holding a news conference 15 minutes later pointing out that the GOP plan is nothing but bullshit.
Having friends on both extremes of the political spectrum (yes, its possible), I think I know how this happened.
1. The Republicans are getting ready for another offensive in Washington State. Their strategy over the past few years has been to constantly attack, rather than defend their platform.
2. Among their agenda, as always, is the repeal of the estate tax. Certainly this appeals to their donar base (hey, what’s the good of being a wealthy republican if you cannot get some tax breaks out of it?).
3. However, the overwhelming majority of most voters will never have to pay an estate tax. Hell, even they the average Republican voters don’t make that much money. And nobody feels much sympathy for anybody that rich.
4. So how do they sell this to the voters? Somebody remembers a “family farmer” complaining, years ago, that the estate tax might force his descendents to break up his farm after he dies. Now ignoring the fact that the story is decades old at this point, and that the “family farm” was actually a multi-million dollar agri-business, someone says: “That’s it! Everyone wants to protect the family farm! We will point out how unfair the Estate “Death” Tax is to family farmers!”
5. Missing in the entire process is (a) remembering that the estate tax has been revised in the past few years, (b) bothering to look it up and read it, (c) doing an analysis of exactly how many “family farms” would affected by an estate tax, and (d) an anaylsis of how many, and who, would be effected by the estate tax repeal in general.
Unfortunately, I have found that a lot of the less helpful political discussions take place in the living rooms or bars among people who generally agree with one another. It is there that the opposition gets demonized by unsubstantiated rumors, tax policy is based upon prejudices and “everyone knows…” stories, etc. As the meetings get more insulated (why listen to people that disagree with you?), the comments become mutually supporting, until the participants become comfortable in believing that everyone else sees the world as they do, unless they have evil motives. Kind of like political darwinism in the Galapagos Islands: left alone to “evolve” without outside inter-breeding, some strange results occur.
So that is why it is so entertaining when those views become public. The person uttering them believes them to be generally understood and accepted by the average American, and is quite surprised at the reaction which occurs. Thus Bill O’Reilly is surprised when Letterman questions him about the “Silent Night” story, or Pat Robertson is surprised when someone objects to him calling for the assassination of a foreign leader, or the local Republican legislatures are surprised when a reporter questions the basis for their position which they felt was so sure to be true they felt there was no need to research it first.
C. @ 11: Again, u’ve missed the point. Taxation of farms is the topic YOU want to talk about (although Tom J @ 13 kind of
puts the kiabosh on that) not what Goldy’s post is about. Goldy’s post isn’t about taxes, it’s about GOP ineptitude at the WA state level. The title of the post might give us all a clue to that, maybe.
Typical conservative tactics: Re-direct, obfuscate, muddy the water,… Wait a second there were no insults, references to klowns or CAPS in your post Cynical. How come? Have I just dicovered a “I’m drowning here” tell for Mr C?
Nice attempt at a re-direct there, tho’.
sheesh.
Research people…. Good Gawd.
They deserve any ridicule they get if they were so obviously uninformed.
am I bad that this made me giggle? ‘Cause it totally did! Just another nail in the coffin of the (un)dead GOP. Once they quit animating it with illegal tricks and political sorcery, we’ll all be quite a bit better off.
Let’s get rid of all taxes related to the passing of an individual. The death of an elderly member of a family business should not mean the death of the business, too.
I’d like to see any federal taxes eliminated, too. Here’s why: when my ex-wife’s dad died, he had the bad luck of not only having been successful over the years, he lived in Massachusetts, to boot. When it was all said and done, about 55% of his entire estate went either to the feds or the state. His five daughers got about $300,000 each, and THAT was inside a retirement account, which meant it is being taxed even now as the girls take mandatory distributions each year.
Let’s eliminate estate and inheritance entirely.
lib: Horror stories aside (and hardly regular), the inh. tax works pretty well. In most places family homes (and especially family farms) are protected.
And excuse me while I cry a river over the 5 daughters that got $300000 each.
When average folks think of the Democratic Party, they immediately put their hand on their wallet!
That explains why we have mostly Democrats holding elective office in this state. Voters have chosen wisely and barred a lot of GOP thieves from the public sphere. Our wallets are a lot thicker as a result.
Hey windie,
Hopefully you’ll inherit some wealth some day, and I hope the government, federal or state, doesn’t grab any of it. My feeling is that the government does nothing to deserve anything when a person dies.
(BTW, since she’s my ex-wife, I never saw a dime of any of the money, so I have no pecuniary interest in this.)
I have no problem of elimiating the step-up in basis in iherited property, be it a home, land, stocks or a business. That way the heirs can decide when to sell or not, thus paying a capital gain tax at that time they choose to sell.
@24 to be perfectly frank, I’ll do okay (probably better than the ‘5 daughters’). Probably will be under the threshold, but thats really dependant on the economy ‘n such (Its actually quite hard now to get over the point where you actually have to pay taxes, at least in Washington).
I’ll admit I’m not tooo comfy with the ‘social engineering’ aspects of the inheritance tax. But, we can afford to pay it. That, to me, is the advantage of the inheritence tax. Unless you’ve done something far wrong, they’re not taxing your ‘living money’… Well not unless you’re talking about a family farm or family business… Both of which are protected anyways.
If *all* my potential inheritance went to the gov’t, it wouldn’t negatively impact my standard of living from now. I’ll admit I wouldn’t be thrilled, but it wouldn’t *hurt* me. That, I think, is the advantage of a high threshold inheritance tax.
oops a little repetative prose there… SOrry!
My C, oddly quiet on my post at 18. I wonder why?
Check out “indefensible” in the dictionary. While ur at it, check out “shill”, “partisan hack”, and “apologist”
Oh and have u read ur history about the Bourbons yet?
I’ll acknowledge that the GOP looks particularly bad here. I’m actually hoping that they knew farms were exempt, but were hoping for the pr, and the average person not knowing it. Better to be scheming than dumb.
I have a question, though. Why are farms so sacred? If the logic follows that farms should not be taxed at death, why should any business be? We need to get away from treating these as something sacred. They are a business like any other. We have romanticized the farmer, and it is nonsense.
windie,
I think we’ll just agree to disagree on this one. As it stands now, I’ll never inherit anything, but I’d like to see those that do inherit get the entire estate passed on to them intact. I’m particularly concerned about small businesses having to be liquidated becasue they don’t have the funds to pay estate taxes. Maybe we should raine the level that passes without taxes to something like $1,000,000,000 and index that for inflation. I cold live with that, I guess.
The main problem with the inheritance tax is that it costs more to enforce it, and people spend more to avoid it, than it actually raises.
I gotta say, beating up the trolls on this site is oddly addicting. I’m beginning to see the attraction of hunting wild animals with high powered weapons… it’s really unfair, you have the brains and tools at your disposal, they leave all kinds of tracks and spoor (wow, this analogy really works!) for you to track them with, the males especially are showy and make a lot of noise, there is never any real doubt about the outcome, and the meat is gamey but still….. invigorating
Too bad you can’t hunt the females, to stop them from breeding. (And, no, that’s not part of the analogy).
lib@29 Small business are largely protected (or thats my understanding)
janet@30 I’m not arguing too much, but if someone spends more money avoiding the inh. tax than they would just paying it… They’re kinda dumb :p I’m sure it happens tho ;)
once you start, you can never go back, larry…
also have you noticed how thin-skinned the real trolls are? They sure like to dish it out, but they also sure can’t take it!
ROBER RABBIT POLL
Are Republicans
[ ] 1. Amazingly stupid, misinformed, and lazy, or
[ ] 2. a bunch of conscienceless, bald faced liars, or
[ ] 3. both of the above.
I vote for (3).
I guess their idea of a “hobby farm” is any agricultural operation capitalized at less than a billion dollars.
Janet @ 28 and 30: All kinds of problem with ur posts here. First, if they were scheming (as u are hoping), boy are they bad at it. So they are either inept at fact checking or inept at scheming…either way inept, and the latter makes them stupid AND craven, not just stupid. Second, ur off talking points for the WAGOP, who get much of thier support from agribiz and agribiz related rualites. Thirdly, data for ur enforcing estate tax claims? (And don’t u dare give me a link to the Cato Institute.)
36: ruralites, not rualites, srry, bad typist what can I say.
Janet S @30; That’s an extraordinary claim. I’d be interested in seeing some figures to back that up.
Libertarian,
This is not intended as a snide question, but it may read that way, so please don’t be offended…
I would have expected you (by you I mean any libertarian) to be in favor of an inheritance tax. I was under the impression that limiting inherited wealth and privilege is an important step toward a meritocracy, which is highly valued by libertarians. In addition, taxing assets no longer owned by a living individual relieves some of the tax burden on living citizens, creating a lesser intrusion on the lives of those current citizens. So my question is, what am I missing? Is it just an overall “smaller government is better” thing?
Oh, btw, ag is NOT Washington’s largest industry. Not by a long shot! Direct agricultural output amounts to a bit over $5 billion a year, which is less than 2.5% of Washington’s GSP (gross state product) of roughly $221 billion a year.
Even though Washington has no oil or natural gas, our state’s energy production would also outpace agricultural production — IF we could figure out how to harness the hot air emanating from the GOP caucus.
tj@39
Libertarians in general are against all forms of taxation. Thats about it.
Its the ‘the less the government can/does do, the better’ mentality.
21
“Let’s get rid of all taxes related to the passing of an individual. The death of an elderly member of a family business should not mean the death of the business, too.”
Oh, give it a fucking rest! If heirs in line to receive more than $2 million can’t afford to pay a little tax, then who can?
Let’s be real clear about what Libertarian, Frank Blethen, and other estate-tax opponents want: They want to shift taxes from millionaires to wage earners — people making anywhere from minimum wage ($7.63 an hour, effective Jan. 1) to $50 or $60 thousand a year. Fuck you greedy, selfish assholes!
In Washington, the lowest fifth already pay four times as much of their income to state and local taxes as the highest fifth. I guess the poor aren’t getting screwed enough yet to satisfy the likes of Libertarian, Frank Blethen, the GOP caucus, etc. Fuck you greedy, selfish assholes!
And while we’re talking about estate taxes, let’s give credit where credit is due: Governor Gregoire and the Democratic legislature cut Washington’s estate tax on millionaires in HALF. That was quite a generous gift to our state’s richest taxpayers, who also happen to be our state’s biggest ingrates. Fuck you greedy, selfish assholes!
30
“The main problem with the inheritance tax is that it costs more to enforce it, and people spend more to avoid it, than it actually raises.”
You pulled that out of your ass. It’s pure bullshit.
30 (continued)
Republicans (e.g., Janet S) lie so habitually that the term “psychopathic liars” doesn’t seem to really fit them. For them, lying is like breathing — they just do it without thinking, as if it were a central nervous system response programmed into their DNA.
Hmmm … maybe it is.
@43,44
with all due respect, I don’t think its an intentional lie… It’s just too crazy to be an on-purpose fabrication.
Assume (yeah, I know, Ass out of U and Me. What ev) that some form of taxation is necessary for police, fire, roads, education (Libertarian, education?) and defense. Assume that we are, for the moment, not talking about fees for use, which could be a form of tax, but all else.
You have two things to tax, labor or capital. We make it very easy in this country to tax labor. Law requires employees to deduct estimate labor tax before pay, so the Government always has a record of taxes owed. Most poor or middle class get the bulk of their money from labor.
The 29,000 (1/100th 1% richest Americans) have over 50% of all wealth in the US, the bulk of it is not recorded, and damn sure they try to hide it. The Estate tax, what my fellow R’s call the death tax, only affects the 29000, because before its elimination by the Repub Congress, the exemptions were close to $1,000,000 for family farms. Once again greed. Thems that bought the government used it to rig the system in their favor:
http://www.booknotes.org/Program/?ProgramID=1776
To quote Mr. Dickenson from the movie 1776, most people would rather protect the possibility of being rich then face the reality of being poor.
NEW POLL: DEMS WITH CRUSHING LEADS OVER MCGAVICK, KATHERINE HARRIS
According to the GOP’s own pollster, Scott Rasmussen, Maria Cantwell continues to maintain a 15-point lead over likely challenger Mike McGavick:
Maria Cantwell-D 51%
Mike McGavick-R 36%
(poll done Jan. 2, 2006)
Meanwhile, in Florida, GOP villainess Katherine Harris is faring even worse:
Bill Nelson-D 54%
Katherine Harris-R 31%
(poll done Jan. 3, 2006)
GOP candidates also trail in other U.S. Senate races:
Missouri:
Claire McCaskill-D 46%
Jim Talent-R 43%
Minnesota:
Amy Klobuchar-D 48%
Mark Kennedy-R 41%
In nominally Republican Arizona (Barry Goldwater’s home state), the Senate race is a 50%-50% tossup, and in Wisconsin, the Democratic candidate clobbers every potential opponent except popular ex-governor Tommy Thompson. In strongly Republican Montana, the Democratic candidate still trails but has steadily been closing the gap and is within 6 points of taking the lead.
http://www.davidwissing.com/in.....06-senate/
2006 is shaping up as a blowout year for Democrats. My guess is the GOP might lose 100 seats in the House and Senate this year, which would not only effectively put an end to Bush’s legislative agenda and appointments, but could set the stage for an impeachment battle in 2007.
Meanwhile, the Tom DeLay-engineered redistricting of Texas, which gave the GOP its House majority, is going to SCOTUS and the fact the high court even accepted the case is a strong indication that the Texas gerrymander will be overturned.
Although this case will not be resolved in time for the 2006 elections, it could add to the Democratic majority that is now almost certain to exist for the remainder of Bush’s possibly-to-be-truncated White House term.
46
“You have two things to tax, labor or capital.”
The GOP’s “tax reform” platform is clear: Eliminate all taxes on capital, so only wage earners pay taxes.
Must read.
Being Republican is reaching new heights of indifference.
45
I think the term “brain fart” works well in this situation.
42,
I would phrase it in my case as only being in favor of taxation in support of essential services and needs.
There is no “Death Tax”. The Tax Rate for Death is Zero Percent so I don’t understand why Deficit Loving Republicans don’t take advantage of this tax break…
just a minor nit pick, but the farm exemption is not absolute.
The value of farm land and farm equipment can be deducted from the taxable value of an estate as long as either the land or equipment comprise at least half of the total value of the estate and meet other statutory requirements. This is in addition to the applicable $1.5 million or $2 million deduction cited above. The heirs to the farm land and farm equipment are not required to repay the difference in the tax if the heirs do not continue farming.
A tenant farmer who did not own farmland, or who owned only a small amount of farmland (less than 25 percent of the value of the gross estate), can deduct the value of the farmland and tangible personal property used for farming purposes if the value of the tangible personal property equals or exceeds 50 percent of the decedent’s gross estate.
I doubt, however, this minor qualification would justify the blanket condemnation by the Republicans, so they are obvious victims of their idealism ruling their research.
I dont particularly care for the estate tax in principle, but I don’t know enough about the State Estate tax to make any further comments, other then to point out thye minor except to the “unlimited” farming exemption.
And now, the Nomination for the Perennial “Emily Littela” Award: The Repubuglican Leadership(?) of the State of Washington. (State of Confusion?)
Janet @ 30: BZZZZZZ, WRONG ANSWER!
See item 7 in this link:
http://www.brookings.edu/views.....010522.pdf
Lots of really big concepts and economic gobbletygook in the article, but they basically say that the costs are less than 2/7ths of the revenue, even by a very agressive analysis
The rest of the article is a highly technical discussion of various aspects of the estate tax. Skim if you are a normal person, read if you are an economics major, tax wonk or having trouble sleeping. The conclusion is good for a laugh.
sven: I don’t think its ‘idealism’, but rather ‘habitualism’ (if thats a word) and the instinct to rabble rouse…
It speaks to me of the Reps’ being worried about losing their rural base… and resorting to fear-tactics. Just really really poorly thought out fear tactics.
Windie,
It certainly was ill conceived, whatever you want to call it…..
@60
well, it makes a huge difference.
Its the difference between
“I really want to help farmers, but don’t understand the law”
and
“I need a political issue; people don’t like taxes~ Oops! Guess I should have checked the books!”
Sen @ 56: Source for your quotation?
I won’t pile on to the incredible stupidity of the Republicans on this one… Well,ok, I will add that I think it is hilarious that they called the press together to trumpet their stupidity.
On a related note, how do all our nice libertarian friends here like the idea that the IRS has been collecting political affiliation while deciding who to audit?
http://www.thenewstribune.com/.....2739c.html
Man, I can see how libertarians might have some problems with Democrats, but for the life of me I can’t see how they could support these Republicans that push for aristocracy and ‘total information awareness’ government that is beyond anything Orwell even dreamed up.
Well, true, but there are plenty of other tax issues they could have picked. I wonder why this one, other then knee jerk reaction to the death/estate tax in general.
Maybe…. I had a thought!
Aren’t the Blethen’s (sp?) totally obsessed with the Estate tax? Maybe they thought they’d get some positive press from the Seattle times :)
Sven @ 56:
The way I’m reading the exemption for farmers above id that 1/2 your estate is either in land or farm equipment, or a combination of the two. So, if more than 1/2 your estate is in something non-farm related, you don’t qualify. Well, that makes sense, cause if more than 1/2 your worth is from something other than farming, your not a farmer, u are something else. If more than 1/2 my worth is is investments, I’m an investor more than I am a farmer, see? So, how is the exemption not absolute (to farmers, that is)?
Semantics yes, but it’s tax code, so language and definitions are important to prevent abuse (by and investor trying to game the system by claiming he’s a farmer, for example).
Larry @66 – Maybe that is why Debolt was so confused over ‘hobby farms’. Seems like he had it exactly wrong (go figure) the excemption is for real farmers, not rich fat-cats playing at farmer/rancher for tax purposes.
Have any of you KLOWNS seen the 2006 Statewide Property Value Assessments??? KingCo is once again being supported by the rest of the State! THIEVES! Will post details later.
A real problem is “Organic Hobby Farmers”….LEFTY’S who get huge property tax exemptions for hobby farms in the Urban Growth Area. Now there is a scam. GMA says Urban is Urban and Rural is Rural….but there are many hippy hobby farmers paying virtually no property tax in the UGA’s while aging their property to sell it at huge profits later. Great scam. Got to hand it to the LEFTY’S….they are capitalists too. The problem is these KLOWNS want big government…..just want everyone but them to pay for it!!! Check out the Ag Exemptions in various municipalities. WTF!
dude, word salad there.
Tighten it up!
Mr. Cynical, Big Government, Big Government. Would you ever acknowledge that government can help real people with real problems? The kind of social Darwinist, “son, you’re on your own” response unnerves me.
Properly run government does a lot of good.
http://www.metrokc.gov/mkcc/ne....._Bonds.htm
Badly run and it wastes tax dollars or leads to Crony Capitalism.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9601979/
71:ZING!
Someone slap me!
For once Goldy and I agree on something.
The slow deterioration of the Washington State Republican Party can be traced back to its leadrship.
You probably won’t buy the reference, but this is a summary of the argument:
http://www.townhall.com/opinio.....55207.html
If you consider the cost of estate planning, the cost of preparing the estate tax return, and then the cost of responding to what used to be an inevitable audit, and then add to it what the govt has to expend to collect the tax, it comes out as a wash.
It seems like a lot of this would be avoidable if we just eliminated the step-up value, and have the heirs pay capital gains on the original cost basis. I have no problem with this.
No one has answered my question – why are farms so sacred? Why is someone who works in a business and saves up enough to create a nice estate treated differently? I guess since I wasn’t born on a farm, I’m less of a citizen.
Janet @ 74
Farms are “sacred” because Republicans always frame the estate tax issue in terms of the “family loses the farm” in order to pay the tax.
Take the farm out and the ultra-rich still have to pay the tax – you’re for rich heirs paying some tax aren’t you? You wouldn’t be in favor of an aristocracy in this country, would you Janet?
Clueless,
The “ultra rich” that you seem to deride don’t have to pay estate taxes in many cases because they find ways to hide their money.
In truth, the estate tax affects small to medium sized businesses that do no fall into the “ultra rich” catagory.
Who are these “ultra rich” citizens that are able to almost completely avoid taxes in america?
Teresa Heinz-Kerry
The Kennedy estate
George Soros and others.
Isn’t it funny how elitist liberals want small to medium sized family businesses to pay their fair share of taxes while they use loop holes in the tax code to pay less than most of us pay.
75,
One minor point. Since the Democrats are claiming they included the farm exemption, then Janet’s question is directed as well to them, as to why they feel farms are deserving of special, or in her words, “sacred”.
Just thought I would point that out.
I think any small business deserves some consideration here, and that is likely reflected in the other exemptions and in the 2 million mark they set, so it may be a moot question.
I always laugh when I hear Bill Gates senior advocating for the estate tax. His heirs could care less if he passes on anything. His big time law partner estate is an afterthought. Too bad he doesn’t get involved in an issue in which he would actually feel the repercussions.
jaybo,
Look through the dozen or so right-wing fund-raising letters that arrive in your mailbox every day and I’m sure you’ll be able to pick out the “family loses the farm” strawman as well as the “liberal elite” strawman as well.
Yes, dear jaybo, no family should be above the law which applies to the ones you mention as well as the Hunts, the Gallos, the Mars, the Waltons, the Blethens and others who give generously to gut the estate tax.
There’s a perfectly good explanation for the State GOP’s attempt to lie about the estate tax.
A decade ago, the national GOP had been slogging away at their attempt to protect millionaires and billionaires from this tax, and decided to re-package it as “the death tax.” They also decided millionaires and billionaires (who wanted to ensure their kids would end up as slouches, coke addicts, and jet-setters) didn’t make good poster children for getting rid of this tax.
So, instead, Repubilcans went out and found the 5 farmers nation-wide who were negatively impacted by this tax, and propped them up in front of microphones in an attempt to fool the American public into thinking the estate tax was killing family farms.
It worked.
Now, the State GOP – so devoid of any issues to rally their downtrodden post-912 troops – can’t do anything but repackage and re-tread an issue that worked so well a decade ago.
These clowns are so stuck in the Gingrich era, it’s laughable. Don’t they realize their party is now engaged in such a corrupt, corporation suckling, deficit busting spending frenzy, that even Newt has given up on them?
Actually what I’d like to see is simplification of all the tax code. I’d rather we had a sales tax versus income tax, but if we have to have income taxes, there should be no deductions with a very low rate, and it should be simple to do any paperwork.
I want to put an end to the tax preparation industry. I want to get attorneys and accountants out of the tax business, and I want politicians to stop using the tax code to reward their friends and to punish their enemies.
I’d also like to eliminate estate and inheritance taxes. I believe wealth should be redistributed without the intervention of government. The government’s sole job is to maintain an environment where we can all pursue the earning, amassing, and transferring of personal wealth.
74: Argument is rebutted in the link I gave 58. It’a a hard read even for me, but it’s there. This “it cost more to collect in real terms than the revenue collected” is a conservative talking point. Can be argued, but neither of us is an economist (and who’d want to be? I’m an engineer and even I find them boring and incomprehensible) But, more important than that is my next point
76: While many uber rich on both sides of the fence do avoid paying some of the estate tax, if you look at the numbers you’ll see that the “effective” tax rate is higher as you go up the richness scale, with the top 10% paying the vast majority of the estate tax collected. Which is exactly as it was intended and is executed. So, what is this crap about how it hurts small businesses? Do your research before you post jaybo.
So, instead, Repubilcans went out and found the 5 farmers nation-wide who were negatively impacted by this tax,
And pictures of these poor down-trodden farmers together with their “story” were in millions of wingnut fund-raising letters mass-mailed to eager lemmings like jaybo.
74 and 76: Here’s a link showing who paid what
http://www.factcheck.org/article328.html
as you can see, most of the tax is paid by people who have more than $5 million when they die. Sorry, not that concerned about them
larry, that’s the federal tax, right?
Anyone know if we have similar stats for the state tax for comparison?
84
Obviously, the secret is to give it away before you die. Locking it up in a foundation works too!
Otherwise, the State government and the Federal government will both swoop in and steal everything you worked your ass off to save! One thing carved in stone will always be politicians who will cheerfully steal all of your money to spend on their favorite pet rock project.
Janet @ 74: “why are farms so sacred?” Well, if you came down from the clouds of Ayn Rand-land you would know why. The frontier ethos is still deeply engrained in the American civic psyche–the ideal of Jeffersonian small free holders, etc., and this idealization from our history also meshes nicely with the theoretical free market economic chimera to which you, for one, so strongly, and mistakenly, adhere. Thus farmers have always had a particular hold on the American ideal of self reliant, independent, “small business”, sage, and wise civic minded citizenry. Also, by the way, power in our political system is tilted toward rural areas. Why do you think the New Dealers bent over so backward to “save” the family farm? Some socialists, those guys.
And you ask why? You must be kidding.
sgmmac @85
Isn’t that where the term “trust fund babies” comes from?
Marks, you are probably right. Most people with any sense will lock up their money. I actually don’t agree with the death tax, either for the State or the Federal Government. I do think there should only be so many times that a dollar can be taxed.
sgmmac,
I do think there should only be so many times that a dollar can be taxed.
You and I are in complete agreement…
I do think there should only be so many times that a dollar can be taxed.
comment by sgmmac
Do you believe the same thing about how many times a dollar can be invested? How many times it can be spent? If you do, then you know little about economics.
On the other hand, most thievery occurs only once. Ask you GOP Congress-cretins. They know.
No one has answered my question – why are farms so sacred?
Janet. Please get your head out of Ayn Rand-naria Land. If you knew ANYTHING about U.S. history and our handed down civic culture, you would not ask such a question.
Sheesh.
86
“Otherwise, the State government and the Federal government will both swoop in and steal everything you worked your ass off to save!”
Funny how they only do that to the working class, never to the rich and powerful.
Proud,
Actually the dollar is taxed when you make it, it is taxed when you spend it, it is taxed when you invest it, and it’s taxed when you die……. you can invest it more than once and you can spend it more than once.
The same thing with goods. Go buy a nice expensive original oil painting by Renoir. Every time the same one sells and resells it is taxed over and over again. When the owner dies, it will get taxed, when it sold as part of an estate, the new buyer will pay taxes on it….. and on and on.
If you have a 20 million dollar estate, how much will your two children inherit when you die after the State & the Feds are done raping it?
Roger,
The rich hide their money. Teresa Heinz Kerry is worth around 3/4 of a billion, yet she paid very little in income taxes, because she has her money invested in tax-free municipal bonds.
Donald Trump’s casinos filed bankruptcy to liquidate their debt. And he keeps building multi-million dollar buildings and is worth over 2 billion.
Paul Allen keeps building in Seattle and getting every tax break possible from the Seattle tax payers.
sgmmac
Your Teresa Heinz issue is a non-issue. Teresa paid very little income tax because she has very little income (compared to her available assets), and a lot of that is offset by her considerable charitable giving. This is not “hiding” income. If you havce some source for an assertion that she is hiding income, please provide it.
Trump’s net worth is very questionably put that high. The NYT invetigated his true net worth in the wake of the Forbes listing and estimated it much lower. But more importantly, his ivestors have generally opted to restructure his debts in order to avoid risking losing even more in a court fight.
Paul Allen swings the big stick of the billions he has available to invest in this small town. You’d get breaks too, if you could. As with THK, he is asset-rich, not income-rich. One reason we need the estate tax–to tax his unrealized capital gains.
General comment
(this was already said) There is no such thing as a death tax. Almost no one who dies has their estate taxed. There is no tax on death.
And the deceased is not taxed. They’re dead. What is taxed is the pile of crap they leave behind when they die. The only complainers are (1)the whiny ass titty babies in their families who are upset because they are getting less money that they never earned than they want, and (2) Republicans who look for an emotional hot-button rhetorical device to use to cloud their none-too-bright followers’ minds.
Wow. Big-time subject verb disagreement. Sorry. Correction: “…the deceased ARE not taxed.”
Why is it a surprise when Republican politicians are shown to be posturing dumbasses?
Your all overlooking the real big dollar contributors to repub causes this is designed to help. The suburban car dealerships.
The will never be in a press release but they are more likely to get hit on the estate tax than any other “farm” owner.
They *are* planted in rows ya know… :)
The real reason the GOP leadership in the legislature, such as it is, decided to push repeal of the state’s modest estate tax had nothing to do with farm families. They had one target: Frank Blethan, Publisher of the Seattle Times, who also runs newspapers in Walla Walla and Yakima. Frank is a one-trick pony on this subject. The House and Senate GOP knows this. They don’t care about the facts because if something sounds good in these GOP leadership meetings there’s not a brain in the room capable of offering a credibility check. The room is full of rank amatures. Look for more stupidity in 2006. It should be fun.