I’m totally fine with building fences along the Aurora Bridge, but can we cut out the nonsense that it’s going to save the lives of the suicidal? Fencing off the Aurora Bridge will not save those lives for the same reason that fencing off the Mexican border will not stop illegal immigration.
Normally, Lee is a wellspring of wisdom, but he could not be more wrong. Suicide barriers and border fences serve altogether different functions, and the forces at play in each case have little in common.
When individuals decide to cross the United States’ southern border, they’re reacting to economic conditions. They know that in America they can earn in a day what they can earn in a month in their home countries. There are plenty of low wage jobs in America that will not be filled by Americas. (Or, more accurately, there are plenty of jobs Americans won’t do because the jobs pay so little.) Lee’s right about the U.S./Mexico fence: it’s poorly thought-out, and flies in the face of economic realities. That said…
Suicide isn’t a fungible thing. Ryan Thurston, founder of Seattle Friends, says that suicide is “a very impulsive act.” His group is advocating the installation of a suicide prevention barrier.
Why build a suicide barrier — won’t they just go somewhere else?
No. This is a common misconception:
* Two suicide bridges in Washington D.C., the Taft and the Duke Ellington, are located a block away from each other. When officials erected a barrier on one bridge, suicides on the other bridge did not increase.
* Dr. Richard Seiden, a psychology professor at UC Berkeley, studied 515 individuals who were prevented from jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. Ninety four percent of them went on to live normal and productive lives — a mere six percent attempted suicide again.
* The Memorial Bridge in Augusta, Maine was the sight of 14 suicides before officials erected a safety fence there. After installing the fence, suicides at the bridge fell to zero — and the suicide rate in the entire state did not increase.
We can reduce the number of suicides by installing a fence on the Aurora Bridge. We should, and not only for the benefit of the individuals who will be dissuaded from taking their own lives:
The neighborhood beneath the bridge used to be docks and warehouses, and the suicides went largely unnoticed. But during the technology boom of the past two decades, it morphed into a trendy area full of office buildings, shops and restaurants, and the bodies began to fall where people could see them.
“They end up in our parking lot,” said Katie Scharer, one of Edwards’ co-workers at Cutter & Buck, a sportswear company based in the Adobe complex. “Nobody’s ever totally used to it.”
Grief counselors regularly go to Cutter & Buck, paying a visit as recently as a month ago.
I can’t imagine how awful it must be to work in that area, knowing that at any time someone could fall to their death. If a fence can successfully prevent people from killing themselves, then it’s worth building.
UPDATE [Lee]: I’ve responded in the comments and will leave it at that as I’ll be signed off for the rest of the day, but I want to make it clear that I actually do support the fence for the fact that the jumpers are a huge concern for the businesses and residences below.
Will, I’ll respond down here for now
Two suicide bridges in Washington D.C., the Taft and the Duke Ellington, are located a block away from each other. When officials erected a barrier on one bridge, suicides on the other bridge did not increase.
That doesn’t mean anything. Did overall suicides in the city decrease?
Dr. Richard Seiden, a psychology professor at UC Berkeley, studied 515 individuals who were prevented from jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. Ninety four percent of them went on to live normal and productive lives — a mere six percent attempted suicide again.
Prevented from jumping how? Were they talked down? Did they get to the bridge and realize they couldn’t jump? Many people who attempt suicide and are talked out of it get the help they need and don’t try again.
The Memorial Bridge in Augusta, Maine was the sight of 14 suicides before officials erected a safety fence there. After installing the fence, suicides at the bridge fell to zero — and the suicide rate in the entire state did not increase.
The suicide rate in the entire state didn’t increase? C’mon Will, show me the data from a city where they built a suicide barrier and the suicide rate in the city decreased.
People who are suicidal fixate on how they plan to kill themselves for a long time before they decide to impulsively do it. If the bridge barrier is built, it will force suicidal people to fixate on some other method. In the long run, it will make no difference in the amount of people attempting suicides.
Here’s some information on which countries have the highest suicide rates. As you can clearly tell, there’s no correlation between the amount of tall buildings or other high structures and the number of people who kill themselves.
Will the bridge hold the extra weight?
How many bridges and over passes are in Washington? Cheaper to put signs up “Look before jumping, please jump from the middle of the bridge”. City code 2513.000n
Off topic, so it’s totally okay to delete this, but I just ran across the most tragically fascinating blog. A woman profiles every single murder victim that happens in Los Angeles county. That is her entire blog. I’m hoping one of the posters here will take a look at her blog, and perhaps write a thoughtful analysis piece on it here. Please take a look at it. It really draws you in.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/
Off Topic, but I’d thought I’d point out that the Bush Admin has been found to be breaking the law again.
http://news.google.com/news?hl.....earch+News
Maybe tax incentives to lure a trampoline dealer to the commercial zone below would be a “free-market” solution to the problem.
Because the actual taking of one’s life is (generally) an impulsive act things like suicide fences are helpful and good. It gives someone having such thoughts another day to get get help.
I doubt that kind of things Will and Lee are trying to prove or disprove can be done with the data they are using. We do know that experiencing a close shave with suicide gets people into counseling and that counseling for depression is effective.
The reported suicide rate is hopelessly screwball, not everyone leaves a note or kills them self in a obvious manner. Was an OD accidental or on purpose? When does reckless drug use, driving or gun play cross the line from just being reckless to suicidal? Was a one-car fatality accident really just an accident? Richard O’Connor has done some really good writing and research on this.
Another stupid Democrat idea and a waste of money.
@7
Ah yes, keeping people alive is such a waste of money…
I disagree with my own party here. If there’s even a CHANCE we can hope for one republican suicide – I don’t want ANYTHING to stop that. It will make America a better place.
Now in November when Dems win even bigger majorities in Congress and take back the White House – the righties will jump like flies. Let’s give em’ a chance to accomplish their goal.
As the most ethical person on this site, I am going to denounce in the strongest terms (and will probably be the only one to do so), ByeByeGOP’s hateful and amoral statement where he says “If there’s even a CHANCE we can hope for one republican suicide – I don’t want ANYTHING to stop that.” It’s statements like that which probably made Goldy once admit that he thinks his own blog’s comment section is a toilet.
Troll – I am going to denounce your denouncement – fuck you.
@10
I thought #9 was joking, but I guess not.
If this fence costs $7 million and $7 million spent on meds or counsellors would prevent more than the 5-10 suicides a year that happen on the bridge, then it’s wrong to spend the money on the fence, because it’s not the best use of the dollars. Simplistic arguments or talking about a fence only — with no discussion of cost, benefit or cost or benefit of alternatives — ignore the question ow what is the best way to use money to prevent suicides?
We have I think over 800 suicides a year in the state. The Aurura bridge counts for less than ten a year.
If you really care about suicides, and if you care about government programs making sense, and people having more trust in government, then you would want to debate the fence only in the context of its cost, its benefits and the alternative uses of the money and any missed opportunities.
@13
There’s more to it than that. What about the well being of the workers and residents that have to see the bodies of the jumpers? That fence will, also, make it harder for people to throw things off the bridge. One lawsuit from someone getting killed by either a jumper or someone throwing something off the bridge will cost the city more than the cost of the fence.
Let’s wait with the Aurora Bridge fence until after the election so we don’t keep depressed Republicans from exercising their personal liberties. Hey, just kidding! Wingnut humor a la Ann Coulter.
@14
Ok, I lied. I’m back online again. :)
One lawsuit from someone getting killed by either a jumper or someone throwing something off the bridge will cost the city more than the cost of the fence.
As I mentioned above, this is absolutely the reason I support building the barrier. Although I’m not sure why some kind of chain or other see-through fence wouldn’t work.
Here’s a good resource (and I’ve emailed this separately to Will) debunking some of the evidence cited above and showing how the logic of believing that suicide barriers save lives is flawed.
We could put up a sign that says “free cheese”
just jump here and the dems would line up to
jump.
@17
STFU,
Government cheese was St. Ronnie’s idea. It’s biggest function was to provide subsidies (i.e. welfare) to big dairy farms.
You know, has anyone walked across that bridge during the day (or night). Its a freakin beautiful view. I think we shouldn’t put up fences to keep the pretty view. Of course, maybe if we put them up and people can’t see the mountains as they drive over it then they will stop using it and we can implement a transit only lane across it. THAT would be sweet.
Hey will, I’ve gotta great idea!
Make Suicide Jumpers get a f—ing permit, like you need for almost everything else in Seattle.
That ought to slow ’em down more than a friggin’ fence.
PLUS, Seattle can create yet another cost ineffective bureaucracy.
Look into it.
@16
See, either way (lawsuits or suicides) the fence gets built and we’re both happy. It’s all about working together!
Perhaps Vince Foster would still be with us if someone had built a fence between he & Chillary.
That’s wrong actually, it’s about two-to-five times as much depending on the country. For Mexico, about twice, for El Salvador or Honduras about 3, and about five times for Nicaragua, the second poorest country in the Americas.
What could be more pro-choice than suicide? Open up clinics, Planned Elderly.
@22: Poor Mr. cynical
It really shows the level of discourse and stupidity when republicans (like Mr. cynical idiot) like to bring up something disproved over 10 years ago….anyone still jabbering to themselves over Vince Foster NEEDS a fence on the Aurora bridge – or some powerful anti-psychotic drugs – because they are truly off the very deep end.
Thank you Mr. Cynical for proving how whacko you really are….4,000 US soldiers dead for an unnessary war in Iraq and you are trying to rehash Vince Foster’s suicide – I think you just defined the term wingnut.
I guess it would be too much to ask if every republican just lined up at the bridge to wait for the bad news in Nov. Then it would just be a hop, skip and a JUMP to relief! HE HE!
I actually just completed a review of the scientific literature on suicide barriers on bridges (they are considering a barrier on a bridge out here in Santa Barbara). To date, no study has been able to demonstrate that suicide barriers save lives. My report is here for anyone who is interested:
http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/fac.....ltrans.pdf