Initiative 892 — which would have put 19,000 slot machines into over 2000 neighborhood bars, restaurants and bowling alleys — was defeated this November by a 60-40 margin. So how does the Washington State Lottery Commission react to voters’ overwhelming rejection of what would have been the most dramatic expansion of gambling in state history? Well according to Peter Callaghan in The News Tribune, by preparing for the most dramatic expansion of gambling in state history, of course! [“Lottery prepares its computers for fantasy future“]
In seeking bids for a new computer system to operate its online games like Lotto, Quinto and Mega Millions, the Lottery wants the successful bidder to be prepared to run lots of new games that are currently illegal in Washington
This lottery is about as regressive a tax as they can get, and does real hurt to people because it has no limits to how much it will suck out of people with a problem. You will find common ground with a lot of us right wing nut jobs against this one. A better approach for the lottery would be to quit running all that advertising that sucks more people in.
By the way, an interesting tid bit in the article: “Gregoire adviser Dick Van Wagenen said lottery boss Ken Nakamura is acting appropriately.”
Is Gregoire watching out for the best interests of the state citizens or the state treasury? She seems to be landing on the wrong side of this important topic.
Zip… Gregoire hasn’t landed on either side of this issue yet. Part of the reason I’m posting on this is to try to pressure her to land on the right side. (Um… the “correct” side.)
I agree, gambling is an issue that reaches across normal partisan divides. The No on 892 campaign had a lot of support from church groups and “traditional” conservatives. However, the libertarian element of the GOP supports expanded gambling.
She might want to chat with her adviser. Or ignore his advice.
This lottery is about as regressive a tax as they can get, and does real hurt to people because it has no limits to how much it will suck out of people with a problem.
Stop it zip. You’re more liberal on this issue than I am. We are going to have to take away your SP posting privileges if you keep this up.
Folks are reacting to Lotto games? Oh, my. Must be connected to the end of the family and other horrors.
Blue noses just make me sick. What innocent fun. I have never bought a lotto ticket, but am alone in my circles. And to move from fun gaming to addictions is a big leap. Then here is Bingo and the subversive role among the elderly – who are bored shitless.
How funny. Ban the lotto, smoking, drinking, and sex. Or at least the fashio of the moment, lowriding pants. We need cookie cutter people – more clones from the Bellevue factory.
The righ wing really is winning. Prudes, stinking prudes and do gooders. Get out of my liberal life and negative choices.
You all forgot the censorship of porn and making sure art is always reviewed for community comprehension and standards.
You know, if Pam Roach or Val Stevens does not like it, or Don Benton, or Mr C., it needs police action.
The old protect the family – save the children mantra can cover anything at all.
Remember WCTU? Still around.
See, this is what makes the gambling issue so interesting… Zip is on my side, BBY isn’t.
BBY… we’re talking about making the lottery pay for treatment programs to help those whose lives it has helped destroy. For most of us, gambling is a harmless diversion, but the 2-5 percent of the population with a gambling problem deliver as much as 60 percent of the industry’s revenues.
So let’s no talk about expansion until we start fixing the mess our gambling industry has already created.
Either ban gambling and let us go to Vegas or allow it everywhere and let the market decide.
When I go to the grocery store or the local 7-11, it is the poor people I see buying 5-10 of these tickets.
You couple this discussion with Tim Goddard’s talk on how the low income people pay 17% of their income into sales tax, etc. and it makes me go “WTF”. Pardon the French, but I have family background with that country.
I think the general public is totally in the dark as to how much money is really lost on gambling. They assume that there are lots of people that just spend an occasional dollar on a lottery ticket, and just a relatively few that are real gamblers, through the state games, cardrooms, or casinos. I wish someone in an official capacity would simply state the real problem in the following terms, and give it wide publicity:
“X percent of Washington’s adult population who indulge in gambling lose an average of $Y per year.”
I think the public is generally uninformed about the amount of money lost at gambling. They think there are lots of people who occasionally buy a lottery ticket, and only a relatively few real gamblers who lose significant money through the state games, cardrooms, or casinos. I wish someone in an official capacity would publicize the real problem in these terms:
“X percent of Washington residents lose an average of $Y per year gambling.”
Swatter… thanks for pointing me towards Goddards discussion. I’ll have to check it out. (Tax restructuring is my pet issue.)
To be more specific, the bottom 20 percent of households pay an average 16.7 percent of income in total state and local taxes. The top 2 percent pay only 3.4 percent. The middle 60% pay about 11.4 percent, while the state average is about 10.4 percent.
Simply by making our tax system flat, we can save the vast majority of households a significant amount of tax dollars. Our system absurdly regressive, unfair, and unsustainable.
Unfortunately, the only way to assure a fair and adequate tax system is to move to income tax. (Something that 43 other states have already realized.)
Great jop, Goldy. Great issue with great questions about who is really working for state interests within the new administration. We’ve already seen turnover at Corrections and WSP. We’ll see more than a few other personnel changes in the next few months.
Thanks for steering back to the topic that gambling treatment (or the virtual lack of in Washington) is the compelling topic that the state must address before any sort of expansion is even discussed.
I don’t know that much about you, but I don’t trust government (hence my disagreement with you on the need for a revote). All the income tax proposals I have seen have also supplemented it with a lower sales tax. What is to keep the lower sales tax percentage small? It is my only opposition to an income tax.
If you looked at the Ron Sims plan – he planned on amending the constitution so the introduction of the income tax was coupled with an elimination of the state portion of the sales tax and the B&O tax (“guaranteed”) – that is, legislatures couldn’t simply pass an increase later on.
People are just so reflexively anti-income-tax in this state that we end up with the “death of 1000 papercuts” (i.e. the effect of all the little levies, bonds, and other taxes that make up for the lack of a income tax). A progressive income tax would rise well with the population, and eliminate much (but not all) of the need for all these special bond and levy measures.
By “rise” I mean the tax revenues would keep up with the population growth, and hopefully inflation. This is one of the big problems with our existing taxes.
JC @ 13
The problem is that you really need to eliminate the entire sales tax, not just the state portion. That would require a massive overhaul at ALL levels of the revenue system in WA. And my bet is that every county, city and town will demand state money to “study” the impacts of the tax changes.
Goldy @ 7
To clarify, I HATE the fact the our state is so deeply into the lottery bandwagon. Now that we are so dependent on it, either party, left wing or right wing, in Olympia will be motivated to keep it going. That said, the tax revenue from mini-casinos is doing the same thing on a local level. Some cities will have a tough time weaning themselves from this revenue if the mini casinos ever go away.
Goldy@10,
While I dont question your motives and I dont disagree with the idea of a truly flat income tax…not a flat with an adjusment for high or low income but flat across the board no deductions, I do disagree with your figures. I really think that if you take state and local sales tax, combine them with property taxes, gas tax, state and local telephone and utility tax, as well as the many other state and local taxes, your percentages are going to be much higher…
Back on topic…
Gambling is clearly a complex issue. To some extent, I feel it is a bit of an “idiot tax.” Everyone at some point knowingly does something stupid for the fun of it (e.g. buying a “what the heck” Lotto ticket when it is $150 million) and that is OK. Some people seriously study gambling and can make money at cards or the horses. The problem is the modern American work ethic (or lack thereof). Some people would rather risk their life’s savings and sit back in an easy chair, hoping for the big score. Those folks are either lazy or stupid or both.
BUT, in their defense, modern American society does not allow that merely putting food on the table is enough. And without skills or abilities, some gamblin’ folks won’t ever see “the good life.” They so desperately want to “belong,” that they risk it all.
All the pseudo rationale in the world aside – gambling is fun and is recreation.
You spend 25.00 going to the movies. My neighbor buys 20.00 in Lotto tickets a week…..on the sly. His wife does not approve.
Noithin depraves, stuped, or complex. JUST Fun. Take a break. Recreation……the thing we lack a lot of in spades.
Once the blue noses get into many topics, they always become right or wrong. Morality. I don’t do it for the right reasons hence you can not do it for your reasons.
Liberal blue noses are common – they just say it differently.
The Lotto ticket buyers on Mercer island and in Bellevue that I have seen did not look poor. I shop Mercer Island a lot, they bow to buyer there. All the stores are immaculate and well staffed. No parking proiblems.
The beg and very well founded fear is we end up with both sales and income taxes. Hence, more taes in total. Mr and Mrs Everyday Voter can’t believe the system will move to a new income tax and abolish the old taxes.
Is it wisdom? Lack of trust?
The right initiative – well worded and proposed by a giant bunch of all sector support might make in in the coming years – reform is needed, that message is clear.
From the legislature, never.
I can’t see what is recreational about scratching 25 tickets a week/day/hour or whatever.
And if you like gambling, why didn’t you help pass the gambling initiative so the State could get some of those ‘slot’ dollars?
And I resemble your comment on where I shop!!
On taxes: As jcricket points out, the Sims Plan eliminated the state portion of the sales and B&O taxes by constitutional amendment, and replaced the revenues with a graduated personal income tax. Note all you AWB/BIAW-types… no direct corporate tax whatsoever. (Which of course also means, no exemptions.)
As to gambling… I think what a lot of people who dismiss it as harmless miss is that compulsiive gambling is an addiction as real as drugs or alcohol, and that it has some very real and quantifiable social costs. In fact, estimates suggest it already costs the state $100 million a year.
I’m not suggesting we eliminate what we have now…. that would be virtually impossible, politically. But nobody should think that gambling expansion means easy money for the general fund.
Goldy – people like to stick their “heads in the sand” about long-term societal costs of gambling. It’s much more fun to only consider the up-front revenue potential, despite the fact that we all end up paying for the eventual gambling addicts that result.
It’s similar to the arguments against any kind of government-provided single-payer healthcare. By making health insurance nearly impossible to get for the working poor, they end up crowding our state-funded emergency rooms and we pay even more for taking care of the health of the uninsured than
if we had taken care of them properly before they got sick.
For the longest time people also opposed smoking bans with the same kind of logic. Only recently did people see that an individuals “choice” to smoke ended up costing everyone.
It’s about time people stood up to the private industry habit of sloughing off their true “maintenance” costs onto the state. This even goes for industries like tech (where tech waste is never dealt with by the companies that produce the hardware).
Oops – sorry for the extra bold there.
Ah, Cynical. Always good to see we can still get your paranoia “hackles” up. BIAW losing influence getting you down? Paycheck about to run out?
Buh-bye.
jcricket–
Get back to your government funded job…sucking off working people and accomplishing nothing of value.
Everyone who disagrees with you, you accuse of working for the boogie-man. Bad try…you are wrong as usual!
Swatter – my point exactly. You don’t have to agree with another person’t fun….. leave it to them to make that choice….and you make yours.
I don’t gamble on the Lotto – but have sure seen a lot o hard work go down the tube in busineess venures. Mine and friends.
You should not buy lotto tickets if they provide no fantasy or fun for you.
Why get into someone else’s life? Adults make their own choides – good and bad. Mama do gooder neighbors and, mamma dogooder state are both screwed.
Everyone who disagrees with you, you accuse of working for the boogie-man.
This coming from someone who’s doing exactly the same thing on this very thread?!? Dude, at least try to maintain some plausible deniability when exposing yourself to being called out.
You constantly accuse everyone that dares to question your magical self-sustaining no-tax fantasy-state of being a “government workers” (and a$$holes to boot).
Or, to put it more simply, and quoting your favorite source (yourself): “Bad try…you are wrong as usual!”
jcricket–
I didn’t say you were a “government worker”…I said your “government funded job”, which you know is true.
And the A$$hole part…definitely true!
Thanks for posting this, Goldy.
Cynical – you’re about as funny as ProudAss with all her “assumption-based” insults Keep trying. Maybe someday you’ll end up hitting your target.
And keep up the potty mouth. It really helps increase your credibility.
bby @ 20 et al.
I’m just mystified by how these thoroughly distrusted legislators keeping getting elected. It must be a conspiracy by the voters, ha! Of course no language in a constitutional amendment, legislative bill, or initiative can ultimately protect you from politicians determined to raise taxes. If the public supports a state income tax in exchange for eliminating the B & O tax and a lower sales tax, our protection against future tax increases is the same as it’s always been, our votes when legislators stand for election. Sure, politicians go back on their promises now and then. For example, George Nethercutt promised to serve only 3 terms in Congress, then broke his promise. But then, George Nethercutt didn’t get elected to the Senate, did he? I just shake my head when I see people bashing politicians and talking about “mistrust” because who in hell is electing these people? Us. What it boils down to is that bitching is a favorite American pastime, like watching TV or blogging, and all this carping doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the voting booth.
bby @ 28
Speaking of hard work going down rat holes, I’m sure it never occurs to people like Mark, zip, or cynical that I was involved in a business startup and was a co-owner of a small business that employed about three dozen people full time. We made payroll and taxes, but as the owner what I got out of it for 10 years of hard work was about $1,000 a year, or roughly $1 an hour for my work and nothing for my capital. I just thought I’d mention this so these self-righteous complainers don’t think they’re the only ones who know anything about risk-taking, hard work, or capital investment. I should also mention that government pensions aren’t free; every cent I collect right now is money that was taken from my paychecks, and if I live long enough to collect any employer contribution I also paid for that, with 30 years of lower salary. Employers in a competitive labor market do not give anything to employees; a compensation package may be configured with more or less salary-versus-benefits, but the total compensation package is the cost an employer is willing to pay for the specific work performed, and it’s six of one or half a dozen of the other whether the employee gets it as salary, pension, health benefit, vacation days, or some other form of pay. It’s all pay, and you work for all of your pay.
NO ON I-892 WAS FUNDED BY 99.99% BY TRIBAL CASINOS. AT LEAST ONE MAJOR GROUP ON LINE WITH THE “NO ON I-892” (EL CENTRO)RECEIVED AT LEAST $25,000 FROM A TRIBAL CASINO. THE OTHERS WERE LIKELY PAID ALSO TO COME ALONG FOR THE RIDE. THE STATE IS DOING JUST FINE WITH TRIBAL CASINOS HAVING MACHINES AND IT WILL DO FINE IF THE LOTTERY ESTABLISHES NEW GAMES THAT COULD GO IN TAX PAYING BUSINESSES. THE ONLY DIFERENCE WOULD BE IS TAXPAYER WOULD GET SOMETHING BACK WHEREAS TRIBAL CASINOS PAY IN EFFECT NEXT TO ZERO.
IF THE NANNIES ARGUMENTS ARE TRUE THEN TAXPAYERS ARE SUBSIDIZING TRIBAL CASINOS. YOU NANNIES NEED TO GROW UP AND ALLOW ADULTS WHO WANT TO PLAY A CHOICE. EITHER GET RID OF ALL GAMBLING OR ALLOW COMPETITION.
Don–@35
Boo-Hoo…WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
You spent 10 years working at a start-up business and only made $1000/yr. and got nothing on your capital investment??
How stupid are you Don???
And then you worked 30 years as a State Government Attorney??
And you are complaining about the Pension you receive?? I won’t presume to say it was earned!
How old are you Don?? The numbers don’t seem to add up….unless you were “moonlighting” while being on the public tit. So much for your assertion that you work 60 hrs./week.
Don–
Now I know why you are so bitter toward folks like me that have been successful in the real world. You seem like a classic example of someone who can’t make it in the private sector…so goes into the public sector to screw over folks who can make it.
Way to go Don. Your my hero!! Keep trying to convince yourself you have done something relevant because no one else buys it.
Losers in the real world can’t help but be bitter towards those who can make it. You could always count on a paycheck once you got that Government job, couldn’t you Don.
Unlike those of us who have to work hard and take risks EVERYDAY!
And you wonder why folks get a little foul with you Don. Pathetic bottom-feeders are hard to love.
Dave @ 36
First… turn off your caps lock and STOP SHOUTING.
Second… and what’s your point. The tribes had the money… why shouldn’t the No campaign use it, regardless of the tribes own motives? If its okay for the BIAW to spend its millions backing Rossi, McKenna and Jim Johnson, certainly it’s okay for the tribes to spend their millions opposing I-892.
Also, I want to be clear the No campaign spent almost every last dime on paid media. I personally was out there debating Eyman on talk radio and before chambers of commerce and community groups… and I didn’t taste a cent. Organizations like Jeff Kemp’s Families Northwest, and various church groups that opposed I-892… they didn’t get any tribal money either.
And finally, while I am no defender of tribal gaming, you mischaracterize their revenues. These are sovereign nations, and by compact, the vast majority of casino revenues go towards providing social services for their people. Go ask Pierce County Executive John Landenberg about how much money Pierce taxpayers have saved, now that tribes are providing for their own schools and health clinics, etc. I-892 on the other hand, would have sent the majority of the profits into the corporate coffers of Canadian and Nevada-based holding companies.
The tribes can spend their money any way they want and that’s their right. The campaign would have likely never succeeded without tribal money though. Do you really believe other wise?
If groups or people were paid to promote “no on I-892” this is like paying a lobbyist and these people and organizations should publicly state they have received money from tribal gaming. Let the public decide why they got the money.
The Puyallup tribe admitted that it never has paid anything
towards healthcare in a TNT article some time back even though this was a cornerstone of why they shouldn’t be taxed. It’s all taxpayer funds that pay for the tribal healthcare, at least in the case of the Puyallup tribe.
Nobody knows where all tribal gaming money goes since they neither report many expenditures nor are they audited. We do know that Puyallup tribal council members make over 100,000 a year which is more than most cities pay. Can they do this? Sure, why not, it’s their money. But if they can pay this much they should PAY for their own healthcare as we were told many times that they do.
Do you really believe government officials had any idea what they were setting the stage for? I think it’s fairly reasonable to assume that their intent was not to allow the creation of tribal monopolies on tribal land which hurts many small business owners.
Advocating special treatment for one group of people based solely on race is wrong, period. You really don’t expect me or anyone else to be live that our governments knew they were giving away what will be over 1 billion a year tax free by 2005-2006
At some point the courts and legislatures will have to weigh in
on this issue. Again, the intent of agreements was clearly never meant to give privileged status forever to a select group who could then unfairly compete with any business including state and federal governments.
Oh, and lastly I don’t care if the company or corparation is headquartered in Borneoor the Bahamas. The fact is they pay corporate taxes and state taxes whereas tribes pay basically noting and thus cost taxpayer hundreds of millions a year.
Tribal gambling is a monopoly and monopolies are NEVER in the public interest. Allowing all business to compete lowers prices and increases benifits to consumers. There is simply no logical position whereby you could explain that citizens of this state
are better off under the present system of allowing a tribal monopoly. Either outlaw it all or allow competition it’s really that simple. If it’s legal and people want to do it give them as many options as you can and tax every company that want to offer it. Of course we could just make it all illegal and have taxpayers pay the tribes 400 million a year. Would that make the nannies happy?
Dave – you’re shooting yourself in the foot with arguments like this
Corporations that incorporate in the Caymans or the Bahamas do so specifically to avoid paying state and/or federal corporate income taxes. Microsoft avoids paying state income taxes on as much as it can by “manufacturing” its software in Nevada. That costs us (WA state) hundreds of millions a year.
Ok, I’ll keep it simple for the sake of the nannies. Trying to minimize taxes is one thing (who doesn’t try to minimize taxes paid?)Non payment or an exemption from paying any taxes is completely different.
I’m struck by the rather backward and prudish view of gambling in general. Some people enjoy going to a Mariners or Seahawks game where you’re going to spend (loose) $100 easily. Some prefer to go for a day of golf where you’ll spend (loose) from $25 on up depending on where you play. Some go out to dinner at a nice restaurant and spend (loose) $200 or more easily.
Of course most of these people won’t feel they’ve lost anything since in their opinion they got a value for the money they spent (lost) and enjoyed themselves. See, some people think it’s a waste of money to pay $10-15 on parking, $20 (or more) per ticket, $45 for a shirt, $20 for a program and $8 for a beer you can buy anywhere else for $2 to go see a major sporting event in Seattle.
You believe the person going to the casino is wasting their money but then they might say the same thing about you and how you choose to spend (loose) your money. If someone enjoys going to a tribal or mini casino or some other form of gambling and spends what someone else spends going to a sporting event or on a day of golf why is the person who chooses to go to the casino more foolish with their money than you?
jcricket@42–
“That cost us (Wa. State) hundreds of millions a year”.
You are the same DOOFUS who wants a State income tax and claims folks won’t leave Washington!!!
People move around…so do businesses based on tax climate. It’s their right!!!
What’s next? The LEFTY’s will somehow force folks to stay and pay to knuckleheads like you who piss away the dollars on process??
Your rhetoric is why many other major corporations already have PLAN B established to leave Washington State.
You anti-business types are so arogant.
And then you suck off the tax dollars.
Washington is in big trouble. Your attitude makes it worse.
Many people in this State have been working the problem gambling issue for many years. The Washington State Council on Prblem Gambling has been an advocacy group for the assistance and treatment of those affected by Gambling in this State. It was this group that managed to get a 1-800 number in every gambling operation in this State. Also, this group met with and made substantial progress with the Tribes, private casino operations, the State Lottery, and many legislators of our great State. The momentum has been growing since the early ninties and many people have worked hard on this issue since that time.
Thousands of man hours have been put in by this group for well over ten years, a lot of it volunteed. The experience and knowlege this group has in both the political and practical field of problem gambling far exceeds anyone, and has actually done some work. Like giving training to Casino operators, getting a hot line set up, training to counselors and work groups. Visiting schools and talking to Legislators year after year. The leaders I respect are the one’s willing to do the hard work.
Sincerely, Cameron Morehouse, member of WSCPG
You are the same DOOFUS who wants a State income tax and claims folks won’t leave Washington!!!
People move around…so do businesses based on tax climate. It’s their right!!!
Businesses that want to find a way around taxes, already do, which was the point of my example. Legitimate business-people don’t mind giving back to the community. I think it’s shameful for corporations to go out of its way to avoid taxes when they gets so many breaks (yes, breaks) from the state.
And real people won’t leave, except for leeches like you Cynical. The leeches that don’t care that taxes benefit of the community. The leeches that worry about nothing but “getting theirs” while “giving the finger” to everyone else. That’s you in a nutshell.
Rational, reasonable people will realize that having a stable tax base that grows with the population is the only way to keep the tax burden relatively constant. Eliminating onerous business taxes can only come by shifting how the taxes are collected. Making our tax system more progressive will make this a great place to live and do business and will attract the kinds of people businesses move to be near.
So good luck finding your utopia, maybe you should move to Nevada and become a croupier or a hotel janitor. No income tax. Cheap land. Growing minimum wage jobs. Seems like your kind of place.
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
jcricket–
I have risked capital and worked hard for my money.
I pay over $10,000/yr. in property taxes and almost $4,000 in sales tax, $2000 in B&O Tax.–That’s 16,000 and I’m just getting started.
Plus we donated over $15,000 to charities..
So, jcricket…how do you size up personally. I didn’t think so.
You have a government funded job. And complain that folks like me are selfish. Disgusting.
Wow Cynical, you’re so convincing. Why is having a “government funded” job a bad thing, besides the fact that you have a rabid hatred for the government?
My “government funded” job actually keeps people alive who would otherwise die. But perhaps I should stop trying to give you (and children, the eldery and sick) the ability to survive deadly diseases because the government gives us some of our money. I guess we’re “scum-suckers” and a “a$$holes” because we don’t work for free.
Oh, and while working for less than you keep claiming to make, I manage to pay nearly as much as you in property taxes and give away a similar amount to charity.
Oh, and since you’re obviously only impressed by money, I’ve had income tax bills of nearly $1 million in prior years.
When I read your posts I’m reminded of Daffy Duck:
The campaign would have likely never succeeded without tribal money
Dave @ 40
Actually, the slot machine initiative never had any broad support so probably was doomed from the day Eyman hooked up with the gambling interests, whether the tribes funded the no campaign or not. Believe it or not, even some of us right wing nut wings don’t want to expand gambling.
I’m with you zip…gambling in moderation is a nice option I guess, but I sure would hate to see it expand much.
Cricket, I believe you’ve seen the *new money* phenomenon. ;0