For nearly a week the the right-wing blogs have cast an OCD-like focus on the “shocking” discrepancy in King County’s election returns. The data shows 3,539 more ballots counted than people voting, supposedly proving KC Elections is grossly incompetent — if not totally corrupt. This, we are told (again, and again, and again,) is the “smoking gun” that will force the courts to call for a new election.
Stefan at (un)Sound Politics has delved into these numbers with his usual reckless abandon (you know… for reason, logic, or fairness,) despite the fact that the Secretary of State, county auditors, and state statute all confirm that these returns are “unofficial”, and that discrepancies such as these are common.
How common? Well according to an AP report by Rebecca Cook, state Republicans are claiming at least four “Rossi-supporting counties have similar shortfalls.”
Snohomish County has 1,738 fewer voters on its list than certified votes; Pierce County has 1,640; Clark County has 1,018; and Kitsap County has 484.
Huh.
So I did some number crunching, and I think you’ll find it curious to see how these discrepancies compare as a percentage of total votes cast per county. (For a lark, I have also included the voting margins.)
County Discrepancy Rossi Gregoire Clark .59% 53% 45% Snohomish .58% 50% 48% Pierce .52% 51% 47% Kitsap .41% 49% 48% King .39% 40% 58%
Now if I were as statistically devious as some bloggers I know, I might point out an interesting pattern emerging: that the relative discrepancy rate is nearly proportionate to Dino Rossi’s margin of victory. But what should be plainly clear to even the most partisan observer is that despite the unrelenting attacks on the integrity and competence of their election officials, King County has by far the lowest discrepancy rate of any of the counties surveyed.
Are the results preliminary? Absolutely. Are discrepancies of this magnitude uncommon? Apparently not.
The discrepancy is “definitely, absolutely normal,” said Pierce County Auditor Pat McCarthy. She said the list of names may not include voters who have moved in the two months since the election and whose names have been “cleaned” from the rolls, and it may not include voters who were previously categorized as “inactive.”
Indeed, Clark County Auditor Greg Kimsey — a Republican — expects only about half of the vote-to-voter discrepancy to be accounted for in the final returns… but he has no plans to try to account for the extra votes:
“It would be a huge task,” Kimsey said. “You are looking through 121,679 absentee ballots, affidavit envelopes and through poll books where 50,598 voters cast their ballots.
“The controls that are in place in the election process ensure that only registered voters are going to receive a ballot. While I understand the concern that comes from seeing two different numbers, the controls are at the front end.”
As of this writing, our friends at (un)Sound Politics (and their emissaries commenting here) have yet to focus on discrepancies outside of King County. Perhaps they haven’t yet decided what to do with the rhetorical dilemma this information presents them. They could follow Chris Vance’s ill-advised legal strategy and attempt to call into question the integrity of results statewide. Problem is, the law doesn’t actually require the counties to reconcile the voter lists with the number of votes counted.
Or they could continue their Ukrainian-themed festival of Democrat-bashing propaganda, in a desperate attempt to prove to themselves — if not the public or the courts — that a corrupt and incompetent King County stole this election.
I’m guessing they’ll try a little of both. But whatever they do, it’s quickly becoming apparent that yet another one of their smoking guns… shoots blanks.
Aaah, it is nice that King County had the lowest PERCENT of error so far. But the # is what matters, amigo. The actual #, for the # is so huge it could swing the election as easily as you and I type.
That said, because I consider voter fraud a nonpartisan issue, I at http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....oters.html let it out at Clark County Auditor Greg Kimsey. Just let it out. I also think you should do a post or two on voter fraud, Goldy…
Goldy,
You should charge an advertising fee for other blogs plugging themselves on your site don’t you think?
Out of the five counties, Clark County is the only one with a Republican auditor. Regardless of party politics, there is no excuse for having more ballots counted than actual voters. The only mathematical tool needed to figure this one out is subtraction. If they are more ballots counted than actual voters who cast them, it means that the ballot box (in this case, ballot collection) has been stuffed with illegally cast ballots. Nor is there any justification for not coming up with a perfect reconciliation. It simply requires the accurate listing of the people who signed the poll books and submitted accepted absentee ballot envelopes.
By the way, who has been the state’s chief legal officer for the last twelve years? If many of the counties have been getting away without reconciling their ballot counts with the number of actual voters, shouldn’t she have done something about it? If we have another election simply due to this sloppiness, Gregoire deserves that. As she deserves the wrath of the voters for being asleep at the hill for these last 12 years.
Goldy- Quite frankly, I don’t give a damn about whether a county voted heavily (60-40 for Gregoire) or barely (49-48, 50-48) for Rossi; whether the county elections is under Democratic (King, Pierce, Snohomish, Kitsap) or Republican (Clark) administration, or whether the law or practice touches on the inability to reconcile the numbers of voters voting and ballots counted. It is BULLSHIT that these numbers cannot be reconciled, Pat McCarthy’s lame excuses notwithstanding. Any changes made in the voter rolls since the rolls were set for the November election can be tracked, and the counties do not typically make these adjustments at this time- and if they have been too busy with the recounts to do reconciliation of numbers, they MUST have been too busy with the recounts to be changing the voter rolls…
This reconciliation is fundamental to the integrity of elections, and is obviously another area in need of reform. But the fact that we as a state have not paid attention to it previously (not having noticed it before or not having had reason to notice it before) no more excuses this failure than not having noted market manipulation previously excuses what happened when the energy companies played games a short time back.
I have argued for some time that gross incompetence is all that is needed for a new election, and I cannot help but agree with Dan Evans that voter confidence must be paramount. The Republicans of this state put a United States Senate position on the ballot, when they did not have to do so, to maintain voter confidence in the integrity of how our leading officials are chosen, and we will soon see what level of integrity the Democrats have.
Goldy- just why should the Legislature put its stamp of approval on “unofficial” returns? Why should a Governor be seated upon “unofficial” returns? Let Dean Logan and his ilk put the final certification, with complete reconciliation, on the table, or let Gregoire wait for her ball…
The earth shaking reconciliation seems like it might be largely definitional…. active and inactive.
This is just based on the auditors replies. Two base groups of voters within the universe of voter registrtion- active and inactive.
Inactive are not yet purged but not carried as “good voters” since they have not voted in many election cycles– they are legally registered but non-working as active, bulk files.
In this election record turnout pushed many inactives to vote, at polling places – provisionals – courthouse absentees. Because they are on file, their registrations were OK and votes were counted.
Updating means they now become part of the active file and that is data procssing. Not completed yet. These converting voters from inactive-domant- to just voted needs more explantaion, but is an adequate explantion for many of these votes.
Talked to a bookkeeper friend last night, consider her an ace. She uses a similiar system. Small company with active accounts payable, currently in business, being billed and paying on their bills. Those accounted as active are part of monthy budgeting for the company. BUT she said she segregates out accounts that are in bankrupcy, or totally stale with no pay in a year- these accounts are in classifiction two, so they will not be utiilized in any budget process. Most of this money she explained will not be paid but has not yet been taken to zero and written off. She said you don’t want the books to show false potertial cash flow- good working process.
Sounds like active voters and inactiv voters to me.
And why is that Gregoires fault? Uninformed public and difficult to comprehend processing threshholds, and raw data becoming numbers as PR club in the shrewd manipulatin of public opinion.
I Ithink she won. She should proceed to govern. There will be a new vote, in 2008. Be patient Jim King, surely that is a part of the universe of election cycles, patience.
She and her supporter and her party followed he law. She is Gov. Thoe who do not like it, remember the sun will rise and set in 2008.
I think much more explanation will be coming from the counties, chose to castigate them somehow or relax and move on. But they will be defended by county prosecuters agains the assualts of the unhappy. Good legal teams. Public expense.
Ladies & Gentlemen–
1) Jefferson Co. reconciled voter list totals to ballots counted 100% BEFORE certifying each of the 3 vote counts. It is a fundamental step in assuring that all votes have been accounted for. Otherwise, no one can assure the public that illegitmate ballots were not added or taken out. Understand? It’s like reconciling your bank statement. How do you know the bank hasn’t mistakenly charged your account $120 when the check is written for $20. Our the bank has mistakenly charged you a service fee. Or the bank has mistakenly failed to record one of your deposits. You do a reconciliation…and it should balance to the penny.
I can see why some of these Auditors wanted to “circle the wagons” and write this blind faith support letter for Dean Logan. Most of them are in the same boat. It is shoddy work. Will it overturn the election…time will tell. jcricket wants you to believe the e-mails Auditors have sent to each other and were sent to /from the Sec of State are “private”. This sounds like something Chris Gregoire would dream up trying to shield the public from the ugly truth on a very public matter.
Shame on the many County Auditors who have failed to reconcile before certifying.
Shame on the County Auditors who would have us believe that over 2 months after the election, no reconciliation is normal.
Congratulations to the County Auditors who did take this election seriously enough to reconcile.
Is the Washington State Assoc of County Auditors a CLUB or a PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION???
Sounds like they are more of a CLUB that cheerleads for any member without testing professional standards applied. This is pitiful. Where should the bar be set on acceptable internal controls. Sounds like this CLUB sets it a little lower than whale poop.
Your misgivings for better post election accounting stuff are perhaps well taken.
So why is that Gregoire’s victory problem? – most of these counties voted for Rossi. Did he benefit from the slop – or what? Why is this somehow a democratic maneuver to steal the election as it is being presented. And grounds for the Supreme Court case. You got to be kidding.
How are you damaged if the counties votedf for you?
A reform the vote move is not the same as challenge the election case.
bby–
Do the math.
Multiply the King County 3539 X 18% margin=637 Gregoire
Clark County 1016 X 8% margin=81 Rossi
Pierce 1640 X 4%= 65 Rossi
Snohomish 1738 X 2%= 35 Rossi
Kitsap 484 X 1%=5 Rossi
Net of these 5 Counties = +451 Gregoire
OOOOPPS!!! Kind of a bummer ain’t it
Of course you are right. Voter inconsistency IS and HAS been everywhere, in every election.
And of course the Rs respond by saying the data isn’t relevant. for one reason or another. And worse, some claim it’s not partisan. Total BS. Both sides are TOTALLY partisan on this…aceepting the other sides’ arguments when the voting switched.
At least two die-hard partisans, one D and one R, confirmed this to me in personal discussions. I wish all these hard core D and R bloggers would be mature enough to do the same.
I can just imagine the furor of Rs if Gregoire had lost the hand recount and called for a revote…it would be deafening.
A new law should require runoff anytime the result is within error of marmargin.
Seems to me the Republicans could be shooting themselves in the foot. Any future close elections could be challenged. In fact, if the hand-count had gone in Rossi’s favor, and was still as close as the first two counts, this logic of theirs would work against them.
And don’t you know that Rossi would still be calling for Gregoire to concede and the Repubs would be lambasting the Dems for “dragging” this thing out even further.
Put the shoe on the other foot. It smells just as bad.
This isn’t a partisan issue, no matter what one’s buddies say. It is about the integrity of the election system. It is highly possible that Gregoire won. We will never know.
Why aren’t we holding all the county auditors to account? I don’t care if they are D’s or R’s, their job is to certify that the vote in their county was transparent and legitimate.
Do we throw out the vote? No. The revote will be just as bad. Go ahead and inagurate Gregoire, and let her deal with the legimacy issue. Then, let’s put some effort into cleaning up the voting process.
bby- I read a lot of auditor SPECULATION about what might be the problem, but no hard facts. Pat McCarthy’s expert is out sick- she doesn’t really know. Dean Logan has admitted this is a greater magnitude than would be expected. Gregoire’s fault? That line of reasoning says unless the candidate is personally guilty of election fraud or incompetence, they are entitled to the fruit of a rotten election…
And cut the “Most of these counties voted for Rossi- these are mostly the toss-up counties- purple, not red or blue- with very bare margins for Rossi, and in Snohomish and Pierce, strongly breaking for Gregoire in the manual recount. Not the mirror image of 60-40 King County.
But as for patiernce- I am willing to wait until hell freezes over to get a proper reconciliation, if Gregoire has to wait until it is done before the Legislature accepts the numbers… I really doubt she has that kind of patience…
And yes, RWB, it smells bad- some of us have maintained a consistency about this, regardless of who was ahead…
Goldy–
I would not want Dean Logan to reconcile my checkbook.
People that know Dean say he is charming and articulate. I really knows alot about various election issues and has been a good spokesperson. Unfortunately, the other County Auditors used this as the criteria for blindly supporting Logan’s efforts in this election.
Logan’s big problem is that he is an ASSUMER!!! He ASSUMES the people underneath him are doing all the right things. Unfortunately, that is obviously not the case.
I have never, ever said that Dean Logan has done anything fraudulent. Do I believe some Dem. operatives have sinned…YOU BET! What Logan has and hasn’t done, unfortunately makes it easy for a few folks that are up to no good to be successful in undermining a State Election. The Reconciliations are essential before the Legistlature validates this election. Will it happen. NOPE! How will the Courts ultimately rule? WHO KNOWS! Does this election smell? BADLY! Can things be improved? YUP Will they be improved? Only if Rossi has the courage to take this thru the entire Court process.
Should the State Assoc. of County Auditors do some serious soul-searching? ABSOLUTELY! They need to raise the bar and all agree on certain standards to be followed, including reconciliations before certifying.
The Legislature should order Reed to go back and require all Counties to reconcile, allow each party time to review those reconciliations and then decide whether or not to put the stamp of approval on this election. If there are more than 129 unreconciled ballots, the Legislature should not validate. PERIOD! Time’s a-wastin’!
I also want you all to know that even though I am pro-Rossi, I expect a lot of these unreconciled ballots to be explained….a lot of logical reasons have been put forth on this blog and SoundPolitics. I also believe most reasonable heads from both sides agree this reconciliation should have taken place BEFORE certification. I look forward to review the future work of our County Auditors.
The only question I’m concerned with is how a ballot gets counted. I don’t need a ballot list per se, but if the republicans can find evidence of votes wrongfully cast, then that would trouble me.
Just because we dont know who cast 3500+ votes doesnt mean they were wrongfully cast. Republicans would need evidence from polling places and at absentee ballot counting centers that votes were being added illegally.
Think of it this way. I do my best to record everything in my book with my check card purchases. However, I lose some receipts. I go to my website to determine that amount. Bottom line is that people are really concerned over nothing.
1) Again, these are PRELIMINARY results. Much of the discrepancy will be reconciled.
2) Dean Logan, blah, blah, blah. King County, blah, blah, blah. The point is, out of all the counties for which we have data, KC has the smallest discrepancy as a percentage of the total vote. So stop laying this all on Logan.
3) Statute does not require the voter list to reconcile with the number of ballots cast. Never has. And this has never been a requirement for certifying an election, even close ones.
4) Failure to reconcile the voter list with the number of ballots cast does not equal a stuffed ballot box.
I am trying to get a county auditor — any county auditor — to give me a few minutes and answer some questions about the process, what this “voter list” really is, and how it is used as part of the auditing process. But as I’ve been saying for days now, all the hoohah over these lists have been pure speculation thus far, with little or no explanation from the professionals as to what this all means.
And Cynic… don’t give me that Jefferson County crap, when none of us have seen the Jefferson county data yet, and quite frankly, I wouldn’t trust you as far as I could spit. And… there’s a huge difference between reconciling 18,000 ballots and 900,000.
And again, I repeat, proving errors in sufficient quantity that they could have changed the outcome of the election is not enough to set it aside. No election is perfect, and we’ve always known that this one was well within the margin of error. We do not have revotes every time an election is close, and so far, there has been no evidence that this election was any less accurate or fair than any other election.
I just heard the Dave Ross show. He was talking to the Pierce County auditor. They talked about the catetories of voters: active, inactive, cancelled and maybe one or two others. People from many if not all of these categories are eligible to vote and did so on Nov 2.
The auditor was under the impression that the R’s had asked for the list of “active” voters only and this is why the number they’re coming up with aren’t jibing.
I can see Shark making this mistake but the party? They should know better.
But shouldn’t the number of voters who walk in the door, send in an absentee ballot or hand theirs back without voting actually EQUAL the number of votes cast in the end? I have no problem with the number of registered voters being more than the votes cast. I do have a problem with the number of legally registered voters being Less than the number of votes cast. Any county, whether Rossi or Gregoire, that cannot reconcile prior to certification or does feel it necessary, is suspect. I believe you have a certain time frame during which you can reconcile a bank statement and have any mistakes corrected. After that, it’s just too bad. So certifying this election BEFORE the reconciliation is complete and 100% accurate is just wrong. And Jefferson County proved, three times, that it can be done.
I just posted this on the “other” website, in response to his latest “smoking gun,” which to me was laughable. I’m re-posting it here because he always eliminates my posts from his website after they’re up for just a few minutes:
Gee, if this is what you call a “smoking gun” you are obviously using smokeless powder in your ammunition. All but one of your alleged “ballotless voters” were from the absentee column. An obviously very simple explanation is that a handful (7 or 8) absentee voters simply, by mistake or maybe even on purpose, mailed back either an empty envelope or a ballot with no marks on it. Thus, the voter was recorded but there was no ballot to record.
Pretty simple explanation.
Then there’s the 1 other missing vote. 1 vote? Out of more than 2,500? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. There’s no fraud, no error, no nothing here. Better luck next time.
Jeez…
Posted by Nelson at January 4, 2005 09:42 AM
Goldy –
It’s no use arguing. In order to accept the notion that these preliminary numbers are indicative of fraud, one needs to accept the theory of distributed vote fraud from soundpolitics – that individual voters cheat the system routinely, and that more Democrats cheat than Republicans.
An individual needs to go to great lengths to cast an additional ballot. It makes no sense that people would engage in fraud to add one vote for their candidate. Large groups of voters engaging in a fraudulent registration scheme, or county officials or party operatives stuffing ballot boxes – these are plausible sources of fraud. A person needs to be a paranoid idiot to believe this distributed vote fraud theory.
If the line of attack isn’t fraud, it can only be gross incompetence. So far we have preliminary numbers from many counties, in which the registered voters don’t square with the votes cast. We have explanations from various county auditors regarding the causes, and the assurance that the final numbers will be closer, but perhaps not completely square.
To suggest that these sorts of preliminary numbers evidence GROSS INCOMPETENCE sufficient to overturn an election doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
I think it would be wise for the county auditors to go to exceptional lengths to reconcile the numbers. However, it is patently ridiculous to be screaming for a new election based on these preliminary numbers.
I think that all facets of the election process should be held to scrutiny, so that we can improve the system, or if fraud or gross incompetence is found, have a new election. But all the screaming over on soundpolitics is pathetic. These guys appear to be completely unhinged. Reasoning is pointless.
You got it Chris. The D’s have an army of zombies in Seattle who wear natural fibers and fueled by lattes, drive in their volvos to precinct after precinct on election day. Paul Berendt with Chris Gregoire beaming beside him, pushes the button and off they go… MUWHAHAHAHAHA
These zombies are the fulfillment of Jim Miller’s nightmare.
Mr Cynical –
Why wouldn’t you want Dean Logan to balance your checkbook?
According to these numbers, if he had $900 in transactions, he would be $3.50 off in his “preliminary numbers.” I don’t know about your experience with your checkbook, but that isn’t a big deal in my world.
Christine- if it is ridiculous to scream about preliminary numbers, it is equally ridiculous to inaugurate on preliminary numbers…
Let the Legislature wait until numbers are reconciled. If that is March, so be it…
Of course the party knows better. They asked for the number of active registered voters because they wanted the disrecpancy to be as big as possible. Because the first number, the biggest number that gets reported is the one that sticks in people’s minds. And they are fighting a PR war as much as anything. They know they have a snowball’s chance in hell of overturning this thing. But they want to make people think Gregoire got in by cheating, so that she is unable to get anything done. It’s so ridiculous, especially given the problems facing the state. Their attitude seems to be “If we can’t win, we’re going to make it really difficult for you to govern, too.”
As for all this crap about how the counties need to reconcile, etc. Are you nuts? Do you EVER want to know election results the same night (or at least a day or two after) as an election? Apparently not. Look democracy is inefficient. We’re talking huge numbers here. Of course we will see discrepancies for the reasons stated. Is this not like Bush (Ptew, blech) coming up with more votes than registered voters in Ohio?
Look, I feel your pain. The truth is, we’ll never know for sure who got the most votes, at least not with absolute certainty. BUt we do know what our election laws say about how we determine the winner.
Were the Ds pulling out these numbers from Rossi counies when Chris was behind? No. And she made it clear she would live with the recount results. So Dino and the Rs should show a little class and just go home and start planning their revenge on Maria Cantwell in
06. Right now, they are just making that harder for themselves.
Why do we have inactive voters? If you don’t care enough to vote during one year’s time, you should be off the voter rolls. Another thing I always hear from people that don’t register to vote is that they do this because they don’t want to serve on juries, is this correct? As I’m getting damn tired of being called for jury duty two to three times a year, I thought that they were taking the jury pools from the Washington state driver’s license/identification card rolls.
+Mr. Cynical, I agree with your post concerning reconciliation of the votes by the county auditors. My county auditor is slated for removal by me, and I will campaign staunchly for his replacement.
+Tom, I agree with you about a new law providing for a run-off, and your idea for the triggering of that run-off is excellent!
Whomever comes out on top in this quagmire, I’ll be very disappointed if election reform is not at the top of their list!
DCF — There are a LOT of people who don’t vote every year. They may not be as well-informed as you or I, so I’m not sure I want them voting every year. But every four years, well, nearly everyone knows what the big issues are. This is a democracy, so we don’t base whether someone is eligible to vote on whether we think they’ve done enough things right over the course of the past few years. (Felons aside.)
And not voting does not take you off the rolls. You are still registered so if that’s how they got juries, not voting wouldn’t help. Not registering would, but those people can’t vote period. I know they used to use voter registration lists, but I think you are correct that they now use driver’s license info. At any rate, I am both a registered voter and have a valid driver’s license and I’ve been called to jury duty 3 times. In every instance, it was cancelled by the court before I even got a chance to report. Go figure.
Why do we have inactive voters? If you don’t care enough to vote during one year’s time, you should be off the voter rolls.
Perhaps because of a little document called the Constitution? Take your pick, state or federal.
Given the character that currently resides in the White House, more than a few of the “inactives” decided to excercise their right on Nov 2.
Ain’t America great?
discrepancy rate is nearly proportionate to Dino Rossi’s margin of victory.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then, Goldy, you should support a special election just to prove that sweet Chrissy could kick Dinos ass and then we will go away and be happy with out new governor.
PLEAE READ CAREFULLY -Comments from today, Times story – From Snohomish County –
Carolyn Diepenbrock said some people went to the polls, but instead of voting electronically, they used paper, provisional ballots to avoid waiting in line. Those paper ballots were counted along with the absentees, even though the voters signed in at the polls.
So the numbers system may be off twice, to accomodate the humble voters…. Signed in at polls- but no matching ballot stub- discepancy ONE, less ballot than voter in that category.
Very suspicious? To the paranoid. Provisional ballot mixed with absentees for ease/speed of counting- discrepancy TWO- more ballots than listed absentee voters in that count…….this is the real universe of voters and ballots, no fraud, can be reconciled only at great effort and cost……as the Clark County auditor says….the system corrects in the front end. They are all legitimate voters.
I believe them—on the ground — the working stiffs of this extnded/difficult election process. The blowhards…. again and again and again…I don’t think the truth is in them.
If you think ,Jim King et al, the testmony of this auditor, never guilty of anything, no criminal intent — you believe this is going to give Rossie his Blaze of Glory – think again.
Just more hot air from Vance to vilify Gregoire, Dms and hard working auditors….and the media is hooking. Vance is just so good, each day is a new story.
And anyone who thinks this seasoned legislaure – will follow the Vance blather and bluster — please, go buy some 520 Bridge Stock.
So Dino and the Rs should show a little class and just go home and start planning their revenge on Maria Cantwell in
06. Right now, they are just making that harder for themselves
Yay, Cheryl. This whole mess is bringing out the “best” in the R’s. Shark was always a whirling dervish but right now he’s spinning so fast he’s almost invisible. And Jim Miller’s posts were always obnoxious but he’s ascended into R heaven with his theory of distributed vote fraud. May he sit at the right hand of Hugh Hewitt.
With Shark’s profile rising on talk radio not to mention his appearances on the Seattle Channel, it won’t be long till Vance is out and Shark/Jim are in.
Best thing that could ever happen to the D’s.
So who’s taking bets now on the Republicans filing a frivolous lawsuit on Friday just to be spoil sports?
They’re evidence in their latest theory seems to be unraveling faster than they can write about it, so I doubt they’ve got anything solid enough to pass a court challenge. It’s all about PR, so I wouldn’t put a spoiler lawsuit out of question.
You liberals are acting like Bill Clinton…I didnt have sex with that woman…it depends on your definition of the word is….you guys cannot smell a rat where your own party is, can you?
By the way, who has been the state’s chief legal officer for the last twelve years? If many of the counties have been getting away without reconciling their ballot counts with the number of actual voters, shouldn’t she have done something about it? If we have another election simply due to this sloppiness, Gregoire deserves that. As she deserves the wrath of the voters for being asleep at the hill for these last 12 years.
Comment by Richard Pope— 1/4/05 @ 2:34 am
Well said. Strike that – beautifully well said. GO ROSSI GO! SAVE OUR STATE!
Comment by jcricket— 1/4/05 @ 10:44 am
I’d tread carefully if I were you, Comrade :-).
(My Dinocrat mood is enhanced by the Yuschenko protest song.)
Getting my tickets for the gala today – promise on my fathers Union card, if Rossi takes on Cantwell- will take a leave and work full time for her, and donate max $$$ as well. He is low life.
Richard – are you one of those impatient voters who jumped out of the Jag, who rushed into the polling place, saw the line, wailed to the rafters -I CAN’T WAIT- and are now kicking in the face the good poll worker who calmed you down, signed you in, and gave you a provisional ballot. nobody in line compained because the were the polite Dems, after 6:00 pm crowd…all the service in the world.
Ah, the count is off maybe, but you were checked to be registered. – NOW- you kick her in he face?
Richard, your dog isn’t hunting well, as the saying goes.
Josef – I’ve been pretty fair to you, so please don’t tell me to “tread carefully” as some kind of veiled threat.
And Chuck? The only person here doing a flip-flop is Rossi – “I voted against the recanvass before I voted for it.” or “Gregoire should concede after the first count, because it’s been too long already, but now that it’s been longer, I shouldn’t concede”. The rat in your party is Chris Vance – who has been proven wrong again and again, but still tries to fan the flames through speculation, innuendo and outright lies.
While the Vance fumes and KC seeks to reconcile by Friday, the straw man allegations re: unreconciled voters is falling flat:
But election officials in three of the other counties cited by Vance said he had his facts wrong.
“We hear these allegations, but no one called our county to let us know where these numbers came from,” Kitsap County Auditor Karen Flynn said.
Pierce and Kitsap county officials said Republicans apparently based their analysis on post-election registration lists that don’t include the names of previously “inactive” voters who voted Nov. 2, or of voters whose names were taken off the registration list after voting.
Delores Gilmore, head of elections for Kitsap County, said her staff found a difference of just 18 votes after finishing a detailed examination of records Nov. 19 — far less than the 484-vote gap claimed by the Republican Party.
Pierce County Auditor Pat McCarthy said her staff found only minor discrepancies after the initial vote count. “I can assure you that we weren’t 1,600 votes off,” she said. “That would be an error that would cause alarm.”
Clark County, like King County, counted more votes than it credited to voters. Election Supervisor Tim Likness said 452 more ballots were counted than voters credited, a discrepancy he attributed to data-entry errors that would be corrected in the coming month.
Time to move on to the next conspiracy theory.
Chuck – FYI – At the very prestigous BYU – Bringham Young University – where there are vows of chasity required…..well got news for you….from good sources…..oral action, either way, is not considered sex…and if that standatd is good ’nuff for ol’ BYU, should be OK for Billy and Missy M….and very old news….unless either was not a registered voter—-(bet they were)—voting twice?
And Chuck? The only person here doing a flip-flop is Rossi – “I voted against the recanvass before I voted for it.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
The only thing Rossi is guilty of is once the rules were changed and vote were recanvassed, Rossi and his supporters see the error in their stand and want all of the votes counted. When a man can see an error in his judgement and moves his view to accomidate he should be commended!
You liberals are acting like Bill Clinton…
ROTFLMAO! There ought to be a be an offshoot of Godwin’s law for R’s that invoke Bill Clinton.
Probably not necessary. You just know they’re getting desperate when it gets to that point.
Comment by jcricket— 1/4/05 @ 11:00 am
Tread carefully because we have quite a bit of ammo, left. Not a threat against you. Sorry.
FYI – At the very prestigous BYU – Bringham Young University…………..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Last I checked Bring em Young doesnt set the national standard…
Hi Jim King –
You say that if it is ridiculous to scream, it is equally ridiculous to inaugurate, but it is my understanding that the final reconciliations will be completed well before inauguration.
If the final reconcilations have large unexplained discrepancies, then I would agree that perhaps a revote would be necessary to maintain faith in the electoral process. Screaming about the preliminary numbers undermines faith in the electoral process, which I think is the intent of many in the Republican party, and it is supremely irresponsible.
When a man can see an error in his judgement and moves his view to accomidate he should be commended!
Be careful there Chuck, the Republican party might revoke your membership.
More importantly, the rules didn’t change, and a re-canvassing did not occur. The court made it clear that what KC was doing was correcting an error that amounted to _finishing_ the canvassing of votes that were neither accepted nor rejected. It did not open up for a wholesale re-investigation of ballots that were rejected for good reason. That’s consistent with their ruling the first time.
No, Rossi suddenly panicked and realized his strategy of “stop counting, stop counting” was both in violation of the law (as understood by the county auditors, Supreme Court and SOS) and going to be the cause of his loss.
Good quotes Erik
That’s been the Republicans MO this entire election. Make accusations without gathering the facts and hope the public doesn’t notice as the real facts come out contradicting you. Better yet, don’t bother to wait for any facts, just make up your own, and hope the public doesn’t notice when you get called out for failing to bring up any evidence of your allegations.
Rumor has it that the state GOP has found far more than 129 illegal votes just in King County alone. Such as convicted felons whose voting rights have not been restored, people casting ballots on behalf of dead people, and people who were registered and voting more than once.
That alone is enough to nullify the election results. Add that to the discrepancies between ballots counted and actual people voting — which I am sure sure at least 40% will still be unexplained — and this election is going to be flying right out of the window.
And they can toss in other procedural violations, such as the lack of uniform statewide standards for conducting the original count and recount, lack of such standards for determining voter intent on questionable ballots, permanent alteration of many (if not most) of the 55,000 “enhanced” ballots, denial of the right of military personnel to vote, and different treatment in allowing or not allowing correction of erroneously excluded ballots after the initial certification.
Look for all of the documentation to be included with a federal lawsuit seeking to annul the election results, which will no doubt be filed in the next day or two.
RE-ELECT DINO IN 2005!!!
Rumor has it that the state GOP . . .
. . .
That alone is enough to nullify the election results.
Ok Goldy, face it, we got beat. Vance has finally come up with overwhelming evidence for Rossi to win. Say uncle. An argument before the Washington State Supreme Court one can fight, but a rumor?
I’ve heard the same rumor – the suit will be filed within the week. Patience please
Just WAITING to read those filings, Richard. If they have the facts, why all the phony PR – Dan Evans trying to sound rational – kicking the county auditos – don’t believe it.
Mr Cynical wrote:
Do the math.
Multiply the King County 3539 X 18% margin=637 Gregoire
Clark County 1016 X 8% margin=81 Rossi
Pierce 1640 X 4%= 65 Rossi
Snohomish 1738 X 2%= 35 Rossi
Kitsap 484 X 1%=5 Rossi
Net of these 5 Counties = +451 Gregoire
The problem with this logic is that it does not represent the whole state. If you extrapolate the numbers (say, take an average of these numbers and percentages) and apply them to all the other counties, then the advantage to any one candidate is less obvious, and probably in Rossi’s favor.
Federal lawsuit? What that tells me is that the GOP knows it doesn’t have the evidence to set aside the election under the WA statute RCW 29A.68 et al. For example, under RCW 29A.08.810 “Registration of a person as a voter is presumptive evidence of his or her right to vote at any primary or election, general or special.” Thus well it may be felonious for a felon to register, that does not mean the contest provision would consider it an “illegal vote.”
Could we please can the rumors – or should I say fantasies? Besides, I have all the faith that Governor-elect Dino Rossi will win a revote.
Goldy, you make a good point. I posted on my blog (you know where) about vote fraud being rampant throughout the nation and the sad six years of King County history on the matter.
That said, you all – apologies but I need to advertise this great website:
*If you think Gregoire won – go to http://www.revotewa.com and win again!
*If you think the election was stolen – go http://www.revotewa.com to get a new one!
*If you think Gregoire deserves a real mandate – go http://www.revotewa.com and get her one!
*If you think Rossi will do better than Gregovych – go http://www.revotewa.com and get him a new election!
*If you think this election wasn’t enough political excitement and you want Goldy to have more traffic – go http://www.revotewa.com and get some more!
Also, please call 1.800.562.6000 and ask for a revote from your legislators!
Of course the Republicans have no evidence. Any chance they had hard evidence has evaporated with each passing day they prefer to stay with their line of rumors and innuendo. Soon I expect them to offer an accusation that they can’t legally contest the election because the WA Supreme Court is a Democratic conspiracy.
It’s much easier for the Repubs to file a suit in Federal Court where it might possibly end up being decided outside of WA state. Repubs have no love for the people and their will, and no respect for law.
Governor-elect Gregoire. Soon to be Governor Gregoire. Governor Gregoire. It’s got such a great ring to it.
Josef wrote, “Besides, I have all the faith that Governor-elect Dino Rossi will win a revote.”
Mr. Cynical, over at Sound Politics, wrote about an email Corky Mattingly President of the Washington State Association of County Auditors and the Yakima Co. Auditor wrote, “However, the last paragraph should be noted:
“The public can have faith in the fact that the King County recount process in the Governor’s race is in good hands and is being carried out according to the laws and procedures of the State of Washington.”
HOW IN THE WORLD WOULD THE YAKIMA COUNTY AUDITOR KNOW THIS????? Was it because Berendt or someone of his ilk told her so???”
So, Josef, how would you know Dino Rossi will win a revote? Is it because Chris Vance or someone of his ilk told you so?
Governor-elect Gregoire. Soon to be Governor Gregoire. Governor Gregoire. It’s got such a great ring to it. -Comment by jcricket— 1/4/05 @ 2:12 pm
A perfect example of a “nyah! nyah! n’nyah! nyah! we won! we won!” moment. Thanks for proving it so decisively AGAIN, crickettail
See? A
Well, I am going to piss off Goldy royally but as of around noon, my blog got a big ad from this spot: http://www.soundpolitics.com/a.....tml#003371
I am blushing at the attention I have gotten. Just blushing…
Hmm, “Governor-elect Gregoire” – This is a fact, unlike Josef’s false claim that Rossi is the Governor-elect). Soon to be Governor Gregoire (6 days until it’s official, Sam Reed’s certified the results).
Tell me again what’s wrong here? I’m just stating the facts.
And yes, I’m glad we’ve won, and rather than spending all of my time worrying about the non-evidence to support the supposed pending case the Republicans may file, I think Gregoire supporters should celebrate eking out a close victory – no thanks to the Republicans.
Comment by jcricket— 1/4/05 @ 2:31 pm
I state Governor-elect Rossi because I AM a manly man and I refuse to concede to a stolen election and fraudulent votes. Now that I am on Satan’s Blog (a.k.a. Sound Politics to us) – I now will terrify all the Gregocrats! I am overjoyed at the bouquet of traffic I will recieve and if I help save our state, thousands of gorgeous women will fawn all over me. I won’t be lonely any more!
(Obviously, I’m having fun with you all… Maybe Gregovych should hire a new spokesperson and because I’m sweet, I nominate the pithy jcricket for the job!)
Stefan & Carlson on KVI just said that he thinks it wasn’t corruption at the top and that it was incompetence instead.
Just thought you’d like to know…
Stefan & Carlson on KVI just said that he thinks it wasn’t corruption at the top and that it was incompetence instead.
I get it. Incompetence at the top. I suppose the army of latte-fueled, natural fiber clothed zombies from Seattle driving from precinct to precinct in their volvos commiting distributed vote fraud — that was corruption at the bottom.
Indeed, that’s the ticket.
Comment by John— 1/4/05 @ 3:41 pm
I doubt that actually happened. Besides, you REALLY should visit http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/2005/01/deja-vu.html and see what the Shark and I mean… or is it Satan and I?
Who cares! We are saving our state from kleptocrats!
I am overjoyed at the bouquet of traffic I will recieve and if I help save our state, thousands of gorgeous women will fawn all over me. I won’t be lonely any more!
Josef, you seem like a half normal guy. But the little traffic you are receiving appears to be based on the generosity of Goldy who keeps letting you plug the URL of your site on his blog. Most web sites and blogs limit free advertising attempts.
I find that 110 pages link to HorseA and 0 link to your site (according to Google). Thus, Goldy isn’t your enemy, he’s the best friend you have.
It is immaterial which county has what percentage of error. What IS material is that hte percentage of error FAR exceeds the difference percentage of the vote. When the error exceeds the difference of the result, then the result cannot be considered valid. Who cares whether the errors are in democrat or republican counties? I want the will of the people reflected in the outcome, either way.
That has happened. Three counts. Rossi lost. Gregoire is the Gov.
Let’s move on.
Darrell, legally there is a huge difference. If the R’s can document 129 illegal votes (not suspicious votes, not votes by improperly registered people), then they might have a legal argument to set aside this election. But errors alone won’t do it. There are errors in every election, and everyone knows it. The R’s would have to prove that these errors accumulated to Gregoire in sufficient quantity to give her the election.
Furthermore, what all the paranoids refuse to acknowledge, is that a discrepancy between the voter list and the votes counted does not necessarily suggest that there were stuffed ballots. The more likely explanation is that the voter list is wrong. Stuffed ballots would imply fraud, incorrect voter list implies clerical error in compiling the voter list. Think about… Stefan at (u)SP spent all that time showing you how many errors there were in the voter registration database… is it so hard to believe that there could be similar errors in the voter list?
Comment by Erik— 1/4/05 @ 3:43 pm
How do you know that?
Comment by Goldy— 1/4/05 @ 4:30 pm
Well, I guess you haven’t visited my blog post ( http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....oters.html ) that has caused a small storm yet.
It is also obviously the responsibility of the elections department to ensure a full, complete and accurate voters list to ensure clean, fair elections. I don’t want to trash a fellow anti-Eymanist, but I am getting concerned at how much you’re willing to dismiss evidence of a faulty election.
I hope to God if it were you posting on my blog and Rossi had let’s say won all 3 counts I wouldn’t be as dismissive. If that’s percieved as an insult rather than an urging to me from my better half – I sincerely apologize.
Josef… I’m not dismissing anything out of hand. I’m just not accepting it out of hand. I am an agnostic.
Comment by Goldy— 1/4/05 @ 5:16 pm
Okay, I guess. I just cannot accept a Gregovych win after two counts for the other guy (yes, I know the law) but the evidence is becoming overwhelming for the other guy.
How do you know that?
1) Download Google toolbar
2) Got to site
3) Select Backward links
Darrell, legally there is a huge difference. If the R’s can document 129 illegal votes (not suspicious votes, not votes by improperly registered people>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It all depends on what your definition of is is, and I did not have sexual relations with that woman…
Comment by Erik— 1/4/05 @ 5:38 pm
Weird, because several big blogs have me on their blog rolls and SoundPoltics.com obviously links to me.
Google doesn’t list all of the back links. A more forgiving measure is
http://www.mikes-marketing-too.....opularity/
Also, google updates every 6 weeks.
(sorry for the off topic)
You libs seem to love semantics, well guess what, a vote that wasnt placed by a legal person = an illegal vote, it isnt legal so that maked it an unlawful, hence illegal vote.
Chuck… RCW 29A.08.810
It’s not us liberals who love semantics, it’s lawyers.
Goldy- presumptive, not conclusive…
Absolutely, Jim, it is presumptive in the context of initiating a challenge to a voter’s registration. But the time for challenging a voter’s registration has passed. There is no provision for challenging registration after the election. Thus I believe it is reasonable to argue that in the context of a contest, there can be no illegal voters, merely illegal votes. For example, if John Fund had been right, those would have been illegal votes. But those registered voters… even if improperly registered… even if felons… would still have otherwise cast legal votes in this election, because registration is presumptive evidence of his right to vote, and statute does not allow challenging registration after the fact.
I know that sounds like a convoluted parsing, but to interpret it otherwise would create incentive to go back and challenge voter’s registration after every close election, in hopes of successfully disallowing enough to change the results. That would be chaotic and impractical.
Goldy- give up law…
RCW 29A.68.020(5) On account of illegal votes.
(a) Illegal votes include but are not limited to the following:
(i) More than one vote cast by a single voter;
(ii) A vote cast by a person disqualified under Article VI, section 3 of the state Constitution.
Article VI, section 3 of the state Constitution reads: “All persons convicted of infamous crimes unless restored to their civil rights and all persons while they are judicially declared mentally incompetent are excluded from the elective franchise.”
Now, do you wish to reconsider your position “But those registered voters… even if improperly registered… even if felons… would still have otherwise cast legal votes in this election, because registration is presumptive evidence of his right to vote, and statute does not allow challenging registration after the fact.”?
Jim… yes, I stand corrected. An “infamous crime” is a felony. So votes cast by felons who have not had their rights restored would count as illegal votes. But otherwise, the rest of my point stands. There are no other “illegal voters”, only illegal votes.
Now if the BIAW digs up 129 convicted felons who have not had their voting rights restored, then Rossi will have grounds for a contest under state statute. But he will have to prove that 129 illegal votes went to Gregoire to set aside the election:
Surely the Republicans will argue that all convicted felons vote for Democrats.
Goldy- go read some more- “Illegal votes include but are not limited to…”
The points you continually miss are:
1) A presumption is rebutable, and any improperly registered voter (with the exception noted in that particular section of law) who votes has cast an illegal vote; and
2) The State Supreme Court has held that the election challenge statute does not limit the common law and constitutional prerogatives of the courts of record to oversee elections- in the Adams County case, the court saw no need for a “sufficient number” to overcome the margin. The court saw enough to know that the election was flawed, and the Supreme Court upheld.
The courts will have sufficient power to vacate the election based upon thousands more ballots than voters, unless the auditors get their act together. The Republican leadership in the Legislature has made it clear that, unless adequate answers are given, they will force a recorded vote on accepting this election- and there are at least a few Democratic legislators very unsure about putting their OWN stamp of approval on this mess. And Dean Logan’s office seems to be conceding today that there will remain at least a 1,000 vote discrepancy after reconciliation is complete- to me, it is amazing that they cannot paper trail any changes made since the voter rolls closed in October.
I expect the opening days of the 2005 legislative session to be very interesting… And on Wednesday, January 12th, Jim Johnson joins the High Court…
Jim, I understand all that from Foulkes v Hays. But that was case were there was clearly evidence of some kind or organized fraud or misconduct. Ballots were tampered with sometime between the count and the recount, and all of the tampering favored one candidate. Finding a bunch of felons who voted is not the same thing. And neither is a 1000 vote discrepancy without some evidence that error is in the number of ballots counted rather than in recording the number of voters voting.
I simply don’t believe that any evidence has been offered thus far that arises to the level of Foulkes v Hayes. And the fact that several auditors have dismissed the existing discrepancies as a serious issue, leads me to believe that it is not a serious issue, until I learn otherwise.
Ballots without voters. Voters without ballots. Double registrations. Votes from the graveyard.
Yeah, let’s all yuck it up. Man, this is cool. Just like Chicago in 1960 Vote Early and Often!
Has anyone thought this through? Is supporting possible voter fraud now a Democratic ideal? Counting the votes and voters in a precinct usually means counting to 400. 400 voters, 400 ballots. Repeat 250 times for the King Co vote.
Anyone up for banking with King Co?
Yck it up about who “won” and who “lost”, but the big loser will be the the lost integrity and respect. Why vote at all in WA, King Co will just “find” as many ballots as needed.
And the really sad part is that Rossi had no business even being competitive, so having to appear to “steal” it from him is even more ridiculous.
Goldy- do provisional ballots put directly into voting machines count as illegal votes? Methinks the King County incompetence has now risen to a new level…
Well, in my opinion, being able to vote after a four year hiatus is ridiculous. If you want to vote in the general election only, re-register every time. I’ve lived in a lot of different states and this is the only one that allows a voter to stay on the voter rolls after a long period of in-activity. You talk about the residence of the cemetery voting, keeping people on the voter rolls indefinitely is the perfect scenario for this, and for felons being able to sneak in under the cloak of voter roll non-history to deposit their ballot in the box. Grow up! This has nothing to do with the Constitution, it has to do with keeping fraud out of our elections.
I get called for jury duty at least two to three times a year. I served as an alternate in one murder trial, and was seated in the jury box for another, but I knew how to answer the prosecutor’s questions, got booted by him and went home!!!