I point you all to Floyd McKay’s dispassioned and well-reasoned guest column in today’s Seattle Times: “The election played out the way state law intended.”
For a winning candidate to go through three counts and then agree to another election would defy all the laws of politics (and reason). For a candidate losing the third count to call for such an election is
Well, you tell me if what is writted about at http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....nt05m.html and provisional ballots intermingled w/ real ballots isn’t gross malfeasance?
Also, since you like forthright posters, “Governor Dean” Logan – our self-appointed Governor for a while longer – “County Elections Director Dean Logan has said he expects most of the remaining discrepancy to be explained by inaccuracies in accounting for votes at the polls and by failure to update a computer database.”
(Empahsis added)
If that’s true, well then my point at the last post about voter fraud history still stands – but the Shark Blogger better brace for impact w/ egg!
Ruth Bennett probably cost CG more votes than DR. She is openly lesbian, her party supports legalizing marijuana (and all other drugs,) and they do not support the war in Iraq. Even if she did run in a revote, I’d bet a lot of her votes would swing to CG.
p.s. Can we just drop the demeaning Ukrainicrap, it doesn’t further the discussion and just makes the user look like a jerk.
Republicans have the will and power to stop Gregoire and hobble democracy in Washington:
Her (Gregoire) fellow coup-plotters in the Democrat-controlled legislature are following her in this mockery of democracy — (Demockeracy!). We must do what we can to pressure the legislature to halt this farce.
The Republicans appear to be able to do this. According to the Secretary of State, Republicans control 25 of the 49 State Senate seats. If the prior State Senate is the one to vote on the certification, it appears that the Republicans certainly have it within their power to stop Gregoire from being certified. Whether the State Supreme Court will step in at this point is an interesting one as there may be a separation of power question.
Of course, the new legislature comprised of democrats can certainly certify the election. The timing of new legislators and senators compared to the governor is an interesting and critical one.
Great. If they are successful, the Republicans could pull this off at least for awhile and stop an elected and certified governor from taking office without making any showing of fraud in a court room.
How should the democrats respond? They could refuse to certify McKenna from taking office. Sounds like there is risk of basic democracy breaking down if the Republicans are at all successful in bypassing the courts. It could set a precedent of making it very difficult for minority parties to take office when a majority are in the legislature.
(sorry for the re-post)
Erik, the Democrats control 26 of 49 seats in the senate.
If Rossi pays for a revote (won’t happen,) I’ll gladly vote for CG again
Erik;
I doubt very seriously the Democratic legislature will be as callous and stupid as to retaliate for stopping Gregovych by stopping the more popular McKenna. That would, God forbid, end Democratic gains in this state in a matter of minutes. That said, I like your post.
What is needed here is for state legislative bosses to come to an honorable agreement to deal w/ the situation. Keep Gregovych out of the loop – because some kind of new election will be the only option. Or at the very least a week-long delay in certification so the Rossifarians can have a week to pull a court contest and accept the result from the State Supremes if need be. Either way works for me – I have faith in my superiors, my fellow troops and my highly-skilled place-kickers (a.k.a. lawyers).
Again, they retaliate like children and slam McKenna – that’s the end of the State Democratic Party. We do NOT want that to happen!!! Too many Democrats voted for RMK!!!
Erik, the Democrats control 26 of 49 seats in the senate.
If Rossi pays for a revote (won’t happen,) I’ll gladly vote for CG again
Shawn, the information I see from the Secretary of State shows that the Republicans control the State Senate 25-24 for years 2003-2004.
Yes, the democrats picked up two seats in the Senate last election. However, the new senators have not been sworn in yet. Presumably, they are sworn in at the same time as the governor. If the previous legislature conducts the vote, Gregoire could have a problem getting 25 votes. I don’t know the answer to this timing questions of new senators v. a new governor.
Perhaps then she could wait for a later vote with the new legislature but it is difficult to know what each side would do then.
Yes, if the republicans do hold up Gregoire being certified, I do think there is a significant chance that the democrats will hold up McKenna.
Hey Josef, cut the slavic jokes and leave the Rastafarians out of it too, you’re making a jerk of yourself and undercutting your arguements.
Searing in the new Senate members is the first item on the agenda when they convene on 1/10/05
Searing in the new Senate members is the first item on the agenda when they convene on 1/10/05
Oh. Thanks. In that case, Gregoire’s in. Forget my last post. That just shows I need to study up on the swearing in schedule for elected representatives in Washington.
Dearest Josephine (as correct as your slavic names for others) Hope you are having fun over here, as your site is totally devoid of comments. What are you wearing for Christines Inauguracion (And the Repub’s comingled funeral services)?
An unknown number of provisional voters, some of whom may not even have been registered to vote, improperly put their ballots directly into vote-counting machines at polling places, King County’s elections superintendent said yesterday.
Once those ballots went into the machines, there was no way to separate them from legitimate ballots.
Goldy, where should I send the crow?
Erik, et.al.,
Forty-nine senators- 23 Republicans, one out-of-the-closet Dinocrat (Sen. Tim Sheldon) and only one in-the-closet Dinocrat (of several in the Senate) and what do you get?
Then factor in the number of very nervous Democratic legislators who are being asked to put THEIR political careers on the line for King County Elections… Acceptance of the vote totals is by no means certain…
Erik;
If I were a Democrat legislator, even if from a pro-Senn district, I’d kill this silly idea on its face. 36 of 39 counties, and 52+% for RMK – Oh YEAH I would!
If I were you, I’d go to: http://vote.wa.gov/general/sta.....MGeQ%3d%3d . That’s the results of the State AG race. They could try something else like fillibustering…
Goldy – Rememder 2000, when there were serious questions about Florida’s election and Republicans spent a lot of effort talking about how we needed to “move on” and “heal”. Democrats did the “right thing” and didn’t bring it up as an issue in Congress or the Senate.
Now that the shoe is (at least in theory) on the other foot – Republicans are threatening to do exactly what they’ve been claiming is so harmful to the state – change the rules, drag the state into uncharted territory, drag out this election for months… all because they’re pissed that they’ve lost.
They’ve failed to dig up any evidence that would allow them to legally contest, so now they’re ratcheting up the PR war and attempting to do an end-run around the legal process.
It’s no different from the Republicans rescinding Congressional ethics rules. It’s the same thing that happened with their “concede” rhetoric. It’s good to see the Republicans hoisted by their own petard – It’s more than appropriate to throw their own rhetoric (some from mere weeks ago) back at them.
Concede Rossi – it’s good for the state. Allow us to move on, heal, and get on with the business of governing.
The Seattle Times article is enough proof of at the least incompetence and mis-management in King County and enough to void the election results. The state should make King County pay for the state revote and the money should come from Ron Sims pocket. Hopefully now there will be an criminal investigation. I guess Ron Sims’s next job maybe in jepordy now since Gregoire maybe not get into the Gov.’s mansion.
Imagine what the results would have been in King County if Rossi would have had to run against Sims.
Erik – I think you’re exactly right when you wrote:
As much as Jim’s right that legislators are putting their credibility on the line in ratifying Gregoire’s election, the opposite is much more dangerous. Any Democrat who crossed party lines would be out in the future.
More importantly, Republicans are the minority party in this state and I’m sure a lot of them, especially moderates in swing counties fear the payback of going so far out on the limb to support theories that are too weak to be brought before the courts.
Given those two factors, I think Republicans have far more to lose, and are only trying to get some extra PR-time. Ratification isn’t a 100% guarantee, but it’s damn near certain.
“Huennekens said there was no evidence of voter fraud yet Jim Rigby, a Republican observer at a polling place in the lobby of the King County Administration Building on Election Day, said that the scene was “chaos” and that he objected when one man walked into the building and promptly shoved a ballot into the vote-counting machine.
Rigby said others at the poll site saw two other voters put provisional ballots in the machine.”
***Headline tomorrow ” Dog voted along with his owner”***
Ron Sims acknowledged that his dog “Lucky” also voted in the last election and like him voted democrat. Sims stated he saw nothing wrong with this since Lucky is over 18 in dog years and is a resident of King County.
As much as Jim’s right that legislators are putting their credibility on the line in ratifying Gregoire’s election, the opposite is much more dangerous. Any Democrat who crossed party lines would be out in the future.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think you really need to look at the popularity of the idea of a revote before you say that. Actually it is my feeling that sweet Chrissy has pretty much used up her political clout with the public.
I think the Demo’s need to figure out which sacrifical lamb they want to offer up. Be it Gregoire or Cantwell one of them is going to lose an election to Rossi in the next two years.
Most political pundits I have talked to or listened to believe that Rossi would win a revote because most of the state believes that the election was stolen from him. It’s not only a backlash against CG it’s a backlash against King County.
I would assume that since most of your newspaper quotes are from King county that you need to get out more and see what the rest of the state is saying about this issue. You might also want to take a look at what the papers around the country are saying about the problems with the King County votes. These are papers that don’t have any stake in what happens here. Mostly they point out the problems of our system. It doesn’t surprise me that King County is being compared to Cook County.
That being said…Sam Reed stated that the 8500 votes that couldn’t accounted for was a “problem” that needs to be looked into. Also the issue of the “Drunk” vote at the King County Court house needs to be looked into. In case you didn’t take your civics class….according to Washington State Law people with out a permanant residence in this state may vote in the election but only for President. Unfortunately, all (700) of them voted in the state election and 70% of them voted for CG. That would be 490 votes thrown out for CG and 210 thrown out for DR do the math….that means DR wins. These issues were repeatedly brought up during both recounts and Mr. Logan ignored the complaints. This is another issue that will be brought up in court.
These are the reasons that Sam Reed is not telling Dino Rossi to concede. Personally I’d like to see CG be appointed as Gov. of King county and Dino get the rest of the state.
Jeez Louise! You’d think our state is going to fall apart if we don’t have a ratified Governor in office. If I were a Legislator, I’d say this: “As soon as all our state’s county auditors reconcile their county’s votes, I’ll vote to ratify the election.”
And I’m looking into Tim Sheldon being a closet Dinocrat, no wonder he won’t answer my e-mails!
A little off subject, but if you watch the news you will see Jeb Bush helping the relief effort…there my freinds is your next president
a re-vote may be a popular idea, but so are a lot of Tim Eyman’s initiatives, which usually don’t pass the State Constitution test.
a re-vote may be a popular idea, but so are a lot of Tim Eyman’s initiatives, which usually don’t pass the State Constitution test.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A revote does pass the constitution test, actually Tacoma has dont a revote in the past.
done a revote in the past…
Jeff B… thanks for having the guts to come back here and comment to my face. But…. did you have a question?
I want to ask a question of all you glib Republicans, who every time ther is a hint of a new problem in this election, start gleefully talking about how Gegoire’s going to be tossed out, and Rossi rightfully installed as governor.
If Gregoire had not asked for the hand recount, and Rossi was about to be inaugurated based on a 42 vote margin. And the Democrats, through their efforts had uncovered all these irregularities…. would you still be so supportive of a new election?
Because as far as I can see, there has not been a scrap of evidence to suggest that any of the irregularities alleged, were in any way orchestrated to favor Gregoire, or in fact resulted in a net advantage to Gregoire.
So be honest… how would you feel if Democratic legislators were threatening to use their slim majority to deny Rossi the governor’s mansion?
As I understand it from Carlson last night, there is an election already planned for some time in February (for school levies, other minor issues).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This was an interesting bit, that said, I think the 4 million dollar figure could be cut a bit…
So be honest… how would you feel if Democratic legislators were threatening to use their slim majority to deny Rossi the governor’s mansion?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You know, if the tables were turned and Chrissy won two counts and Rossi went to a hand recount and votes were recanvassed, left unsecured as well as an 8000 possible voter fraud problem, I would back a revote…as a matter of fact, both my mother and brother, who were staunch supporters of sweet Chrissy are insisting that a revote is nessisary.
You know, if the tables were turned
Hah! That’s a laugh. Two commenters at (u)SP told me if the tables were turned they would tell Rossi to concede.
Watched the AP press conf this am. Room full of media. Just Gregoire answering questions, very savy – had all the election stuff at her finger tips, did not let one reporter take her answer wrongly, skilled and agressive lady.
Look out. The Locke years are over, brass tacks on the table.
She supported the courthouses against Rossi, and said there has been too much shrill rhetoric and not enough facts.
Good assesment. She can be my Gov. quite nicely.
No laughing matter at all, I love to see a good contest…and more specificly a fair one…
Chuck – all you Rossi partisans said the first vote was a fair contest and your candidate won.
So if the tables were turned….
All the R’s whinning angst about King Co does not change the population stats or the Liberat politics of Seattle. I think that with right winger clamoring full tilt – that din scares those staunch liberals into action. The attempted takeover of our “island among the barbarians” is under threat.
Don’t bet on any of this inflamed right wing indignation to do any thing except push up donations from Liberals and more registrations and smarter campaigns and a Cantwell campaign that gets underway at once with the candidat a known runner.
Canwell in trouble, more blather, and spinnnnnnnnn.
Chuck – all you Rossi partisans said the first vote was a fair contest and your candidate won.
So if the tables were turned….>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Did you read my post? Like I said if she won 2 counts and Rossi won a single handcount, I would want a revote, much like my mother and brother.
So be honest… how would you feel if Democratic legislators were threatening to use their slim majority to deny Rossi the governor’s mansion
I know this was semi-rhetorical, but you know that Republicans would be crying treason if even a single Dem hinted at doing that. Remember how loudly the Republicans remember were calling at Gregoire to concede when the difference was only 42.
This is mirrored at a National level. When Democrats raise serious issues about the way the election was conducted in Ohio, merely to highlight needed election reforms (e.g. more voting machines needed for the next election) Republicans dismiss their claims as coming from “sore losers”.
When Tom Delay might be indicted for a federal crime, the Republicans attempt to “change the rules” and claim that it’s a partisan witch hunt, despite the fact that the DA has prosecuted many Democrats during his career. Suddenly ethics rules they fought for go out the window.
When someone in the White House leaks the identity of a CIA operative, (a federal crime), potentially endangering her life, it’s “no big deal” and suddenly the Republicans are all over journalistic shield. But if McDermott leaks an phone call and isn’t charged with a criminal offense, suddenly it’s a “huge ethics violation.”
Or when acts of torture committed by our armed forces are referred to as “frat-boy antics” and the Republicans dismiss calls to go after the people in charge.
Or when Republicans call for tort reform and slam “wasteful” lawsuits when individuals get money back from crooked insurance companies, and yet waste $70 million of taxpayer money over 7 years on a scandal that fails to yield a single indictment.
Or when Bill Clinton is referred to as a draft dodger, yet George W’s missing year is just “brushed aside”
Republicans can dish it out, but they can’t take it. They love to throw around words like treason, slander, “flip-flopper” and “beyond the pale”, but when their own words are turned against them, suddenly the want to claim the moral high ground. Well they can forget about it.
They can rant all they want, but let’s be clear – The truth is they lost and now they’re trying to change the rules, or use the legislature to overturn the will of the people, rather than follow the law. We need to not let them get away with it.
Comment by Goldy— 1/5/05 @ 9:28 am
Let me admonish me as a Dinocrat: IF there was the same problems but changed names to Gregoire instead of Rossi, THEN I hope I would stand w/ Gregoire crying for a new election.
Raidcal Republican Moves
Then factor in the number of very nervous Democratic legislators who are being asked to put THEIR political careers on the line for King County Elections… Acceptance of the vote totals is by no means certain…
Maybe someone more knowledgeable of Washington State Senate prosedural rules can inform us whether they believe the Senate can delay certification through a Byrd like maneuver.
One option is for the republicans not to show up for the initial senate swearing which would leave less than half of the senate members present. The Texas democrats tried this tactic for awhile. This would be pretty radical as no one would be sworn in.
Another option is to try to separate out Gregoire from the certification of the election. I wish I knew more about the specifics of how this could be done.
However, I stay with the belief that if the republicans are successful in delaying Gregoire from being certified, there may be a delay on McKenna. Perhaps for this reason, the republicans will be hesitant to try to stop a certified candidate from taking office.
My view is that Rossi has every right to contest the election. He should follow the state statute outlined in Washington law and present his evidence before the court. It is his right just as it was Gregoires to request a recount.
Trying to stop Gregoire from taking office when Reed has certified her doesn’t seem that far removed from trying to physically bar her from her office in Olympia.
The real danger comes when parties refuse to allow candidates from the other party from taking office when they have been certified by the Secretary of State as having won. Not even Florida had this problem.
I predict with near certainy that the democrats will vote to
Comment by Dave— 1/5/05 @ 8:08 am
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING?
…certify the election.
Or when Bill Clinton is referred to as a draft dodger, yet George W’s missing year is just “brushed aside”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Crybaby antics, Bill wasnt simply a draft dodger, he wrote in letters that he “loathed the military” that doesnt compare to anything that is in evidence with Bush
Or when acts of torture committed by our armed forces are referred to as “frat-boy antics” and the Republicans dismiss calls to go after the people in charge.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Give me a break, torture it wasnt. Stupid, criminal, uncalled for but to call it torture is ignorant. Torture was what the Japanese did in WW2, how much of that treatment was recieved by our prisoners.
You know, as long as we’re stopping the silly and insulting Slavic names, how about calling an end to calling our Governor-elect “Sweet Chrissy.” It’s misogynistic (You may have to look that word up, I realize. But it’s good for you to do so.) and just makes you sound like a chauvenistic (oooh — a hint about that earlier big word!) twit.
But then the Republican crowd is sounding so childish and desperate now, it’s sad.
If, IF there were a revote and if, IF Dino won, do you think he would really be considered a legitimate governor? Not by me or many others who think a revote reeks of just wanting another chance because they didn’t like the first results. Heck, I want a revote on the Bush-Kerry race, then. It wasn’t as close, but we sure had some anomolies, like 10 hour waits in heavily Democratic precincts. But that’s just plain silly. Much like the call for a revote here.
And while we’re speaking of silly, how about the Republicans and their lack of interest in voting anomolies when Dino was up by a handful of votes? Where was the call for a revote then, just to ensure a legitimate governor. You know how I would have had some tiny modicum of respect for the current revote push? If Dino and the Rs had said, after the second machine count, “You know, this really is too close. We’ll put up the money with you, Ds, to pay for a hand recount. But no — then we heard Dino say the Ds just wanted to “Count and recount until they won.” Well, sounds better, and more legal, by the way, than his strategy now of “Vote and revote until we win.”
And again, I’d like to see some leadership from Dino — like maybe a pledge to help reimburse the counties for the revote, at least if he loses again.
And, for the record, I’m also sick of all this “Dan Evans knows about having a vote that isn’t called for by the law … he stood for election when Spellman appointed him blah blah blah.” Does anyone else see that as a totally different situation? It’s not like he was elected, but in a close election, then re-did it. It was one freakin’ election to determine who would fill Scoop’s seat. It was about timing, nothing more.
You liberals simply amaze me, whenever a mentioning of an unpleasant female you call it chauvenistic, or “misogynistic” (yes I knew what it meant), Or if a person doesnt agree with the gay lifestyle you label us homophobe, get a clue!
(We interrupt this blog discussing whether the KVI listeners will throw their bodies in front of the Governors’ mansion to keep CG from taking office to bring you a word definition. Whether it applies or not is another matter.)
Misogynist
noun {C}
a man who hates women or believes that men are much better than women
misogynist
adjective (ALSO misogynistic)
– She left the Church because of its misogynist teachings on women and their position in society.
– a misogynistic attitude/writer
man, I love to see people’s true colors emerge….. how has being friggin polite or respectful turned political? It’s one thing not to agree with something or somebody, but to be sexist/racist/homophobic is so much uglier (and definitely doesn’t help the discourse).
Would one of you liberal readers please tell me why an undocumented “provisional” vote in King County should count as much as my legally cast ballot? Is this what “count every vote” means?
Goldy,
Don’t play the “what, who me?” game. You know there’s a lot of problems with this election that have strained the credibility of King County elections past the point where Washingtonions believe we have had a fair contest. You can deny this all you want, or say that there is no basis in law to allow a recontest (which would be untrue) but the reality is that Gregoire’s legitimacy is now so tainted that even Democrats must address this problem.
And to answer your question, and also the reason why I bothered to come back to your site and comment, HECK YES. Anyone who is confident of the results of this election is in extreme denial. To say that there’s not enough irregularity for a net advantage for Gregoire is to deny the two previous counts that gave a net advantage to Rossi. It’s that close, which anyone can plainly see, and so even the slightest amount of irregularity leaves the whole race in a very suspect state.
I think that every legislator should cross partisan lines and come to a simple agreement. This election was a joke. The problems in King County’s management of the election leave this election without a result. We’ve got a lot of cleanup of laws, procedure, equipment, authentication and other voting problems that is going to cost the state a lot of money.
Stop your fearful denial. Let’s put both contestants back in the ring and let them duke it out. May the best candidate win, but decisively so we won’t have one party or the other with bumper stickers and t-shirts that say “Not My Governor.”
I am sorry to hear you have these sexist/racist/homophobic DavidH I hope you can stabilize them at some point….
Chuck – your rebuttal is a grammatical critique? Please.
Yea I know, this puter has issues…
The puter chose to leave out “views”
Jeff B. – Can’t have it both ways. Bush’s legitimacy was tainted in 2000 as well and Dems had to choke on that.
Now you know how it feels.
And the election a joke – gimme a break – it was good enough for government work. KC received a record number of new registrations and sends out more absentee ballots than any county in the country except for Los Angeles county. All you guys can yell is incompetent – let’s see you run it with an Eymanized budget – oh, scratch that – let’s not go there.
Face it – your candidate didn’t get enough support. Someone mentioned that 80,000 R’s in KC didn’t bother to vote. What’s up with that? Smells like a lousy campaign or GOTV effort.
You guys say you want a revote – no you want to replay the ball game because in the eleventh inning it didn’t come out your way.
Whiiiiiine..
If you have any solid evidence of fraud file a lawsuit – dems da rules.
DCF- Senator Tim Sheldon is not a closet Dinocrat- he openly endorsed Dino for Governor….
Republicans will vote to re-vote
From an absolutely ironclad source:
This am, I called Senator Pam Roaches office-the very nice gentleman that answered the phones stated Ms. Roach’s office has received numerous phone calls and email’s re:this election. Evidently she has put together a “special re-vote” bill that she will be presenting next week.
Interesting if true. Roach would certainly be the one to introduce such legislation. It also shows that the republicans do not believe they have much in the court arena to stand up long and want to bypass the whole process rather than having to meet any legal standards.
I still expect that a lawsuit will be filed but it will be more of a publicity stunt rather than having any hope of success.
(ikes. Forgot to turn off bold)
“while we’re speaking of silly, how about the Republicans and their lack of interest in voting anomolies when Dino was up by a handful of votes? Where was the call for a revote then, just to ensure a legitimate governor.”
Any viewer of this blog – or mine – knows I called for one BEFORE the WA Farm Bureau and Ralph Munro and http://www.revotewa.com called for one…
I can’t help but notice that all of the Rossi suporters (if this were SP we’d refer to them as ‘trolls’)have sidestepped Goldy’s question of 9:28 am. In response to the question “If Gregoire had not asked for the hand recount, and Rossi was about to be inaugurated based on a 42 vote margin. And the Democrats, through their efforts had uncovered all these irregularities…. would you still be so supportive of a new election?” to a person they replied with blather about if Gergoire had won the two machine counts and Rossi had one the hand count. That’s evading the question. The fact remains that if these alleged irregularities de-legitimize this election now that Rossi is behind, they did it when Rossi was ahead by 42 votes, and Rossi was demanding that Gregoire concede for the good of the state. Funny how the lack of proper reconcilliation of voters/votes wasn’t a in issue at that point. (note that both counts which put Rossi ahead had the same problem, but Vance & gang were ready to accept the results as perfectly legitimate) The word hypocracy springs to mind.
Who is funding revotewa? Why are they not releasing their donor list?
Chuck – just why are you intererested an any adult’s bedroom? Gay or straight.
I always thought conservatives wanted the govt. out of the bedroom. Isn’t it just a little sick how focused right wing is on gay sex? After all – that is all it is. Who cares except the radical right. Get your own sex life….much healthier option.
Josef – it was a bad idea when you suggested it – and it is a bad idea now.
If you would leave out some of the cutsie pie stuff, you might be taken a bit more seriously. Do a puppet show somewhere to use all the names and stuff. I have grown tired of it, so have others. I like imagination and creative energy – but not name calling. Disrespect of the first order.
FLASH – King 5 —Vance on with an observer saying “we have it” -it is the handling of provisional ballots – many of which went into the counting at the polling places instead of being held separately.
Flood of provisional ballots in this election. mandated by new Federal election laws, and surge of voter interest/participation.
Ho, hum……better training, not fraud. Seems to have happened in most counties to some degree….ho, hum…show me fraud on some large scale.
I have now read a post about ONE person who SEEMS to have voted twice. Boy, if that is the extent of verifiable fraud…..we need a Three Cheers for So Little Fraud Rally…..how about it, nut wings?
And I bet if this voter misconduct is trud and investigaed… we will discover a person with big time mental stress…..not a paid operative of either party.
Comment by John— 1/5/05 @ 11:57 am & Goldy
Yes, absolutely, you betcha if there was no hand-job, and these concerns arose I would be calling for a revote. And a full purge of the voting rolls.
Answer your questions?
John – Public Disclosure is strict, but i think you have 10 days or so to file. Ck with them…..bet you find hardcore R’s givng money…….the PR person benind the site Sharon Gilpin, admits a contract with Rossi’s campaign.
No, it is not neutral. Gilpin wants more Rossi money in the future. Smart marketing of her resume…to Rossi.
Comment by Peter— 1/5/05 @ 12:41 pm
Comment by Peter— 1/5/05 @ 12:50 pm
Earlier, you urged me to, “If you would leave out some of the cutsie pie stuff, you might be taken a bit more seriously. Do a puppet show somewhere to use all the names and stuff. I have grown tired of it, so have others. I like imagination and creative energy – but not name calling. Disrespect of the first order.”
Then you say, “Boy, if that is the extent of verifiable fraud…..we need a Three Cheers for So Little Fraud Rally…..how about it, nut wings?
And I bet if this voter misconduct is trud and investigaed… we will discover a person with big time mental stress…..not a paid operative of either party.”
Sure no name-calling, but certainly “cutsie pie”. Tread carefully. Or hey, better idea – Gregovych could use you!
Peter,
Another reputable blog has very thoroughly documented fraud in the election by Mrs. Witte who lived in Sammamish. She cast a vote after she died which is illegal (the voting, not the dying). Whoever assisted her in voting should be prosecuted.
Apparently though, she came from a staunch republican household so her vote likely helped Rossi.
Thus, the republican’s hope for occupying the governor’s mansion currently hinges on a deceased voter who voted republican.
Comment by Peter— 1/5/05 @ 1:17 pm
Yeah, well I know that. So what? She’s a patriot, too. Could have sold her soul to the Gregocrats, but Noooooo had to do her duty.
God Bless people like that.
“Thus, the republican’s hope for occupying the governor’s mansion currently hinges on a deceased voter who voted republican.”
It’s more than that.
OK, since you are a little slow… It’s not misogynistic to say you don’t like A woman. What is misogynistic is the way some people use terms like “Sweet Chrissy” to play up, what? Her gender and to do so in a demeaning way. When you say “Sweet Chrissy” it sounds dismissive and as if you consider her a child or at the very least child-like. Which I can tell you, whatever else you may think of her, she is not. Why is this misogynistic? Well, let me further give you a bit of a history of the sexes and how women were held down. Women were considered “the weaker sex” unable to withstand the rough and tumble of real adult life, let alone politics. OK, I’m preaching to a HOMOPHOBE — yes, I use the word — so it’s pointless. Suffice to say, no one would mock Dino by playing up his masculinity. To the contrary, playing up his masculinity is a good thing, right? Since masculine = good and feminine = bad, or at the very least weak.
As for the homophobe stuff, I’m curious, always, about this. You say people who don’t like homosexuals aren’t necessarily homophobes. When all scientific evidence points to homosexuality as an innate characteristic. It’s like saying you don’t like black people, but you’re not a racist. I know, I know, there are religious grounds, right? But, correct me if I’m wrong, not so terribly long ago there were religious grounds for segregating the races. Were those people not racist?
I know, you hate the “phobe” part, because, manly man that you are, you ain’t afraid of nothin’ no sissy boy could do. But I suspect that you are afraid. Deeply afraid that the fact that you got a boner in the shower after gym class once might make you “one of them” (it doesn’t). Or that someone might think you’re one of them. Or…
Really, instead of misogynist or homophobe, I’ll try for something more generally descriptive I suspect: Little, little man.
Erik – It is a little like assuming only the underclass have stains in their underwear. Also very R.
I think it is great. Read the posts. Did the hubby vote the decased so Rossi had one more Sammish community vote…does Dino live down the street…rampant fraud in the burbs…
OK, one dead lady voted by her husband…Next, a mental case voting twice…. TWO ouchies out of almost 3 million ballots is batting well….and neither will overturn this election.
It is funny how even Dems have been lisening to the right wing’s shrill and braying mantra that potential cheaters are all Seattle Dems…..who would have thought, Sammish Rossi supporters….careful Mr.Vance, dirty laundry maybe coming to light…
Another thing driving me up the wall is the way all the Rs keep saying Gregoire won because the Supreme Court “Changed the rules.” A. No they didn’t and B. She won even before they counted the contested ballots. What does this have to do with the current discussion? I think it just goes to show how willing the Rs are to overlook and “forget” about facts that don’t go their way.
Cherly – want to buy you a drink at the Gregoire gala – Boners in the Shower – punk band or porn flick….either one…smells like sure fire money. Great post.
And from a male who has been in many shower rooms, you got it right…and secondly, hot tubs with anyone up next to you, either sex…..
Still laughing, thanks.
After all the talk about Democrats being more likely to cheat, soundpolitics finally comes up with a dead voter – a Republican Precinct Committee Officer.
They can’t even see the irony over at soundpolitics.
However, I will give the OCD crowd their due. In the long run, to the extent they do find problems in the system, they will end up doing a public service. Unfortunately, they are trying so hard to tear down public confidence in the system, and it doesn’t make any sense.
If Rossi gets a revote, how is he going to ensure that more dead Republicans don’t vote for him a second time? If the system is corrupt and broken at its core, what is going to change by February? I don’t get how attacking the system supports a revote, unless the revote happens a year or so out.
Cristine – yes, there will be a revote….of sorts. Cantwell 2006 and Gregoire 2008. For sure.
The lines are clearly being drawn.
Can you see if dead voter from Sammish lived near Dino? Friend?
Donor?
It is too much – wait untill cameras show up at his house….and they will…..is there a grief defense…wrong election fellow
Cheryl – want to buy you a drink at the Gregoire gala – Boners in the Showers!!!…is it punk rock or porn….either way a great post.
You have a lot of insight. Have been in many shower rooms…but the real problem is in a crowed hot tub when – either male or female – lays up next to you – get the cameras rolling. Send Chuck the first copy.
I think boner is filtered?
Christine – Rossi and his supporters are totally being disingenous with their calls for a re-vote. It has nothing to do with being fair or fixing the system. The only purpose is to give Rossi another shot at being elected. They know we won’t correct the problems with the current system by then. They know that new problems will crop up. They have no answer to the fact that it will be a different set of people voting.
Their plan all along has been to use rumor, innuendo and speculation to call the election into question, so that it sets Rossi up well in a re-vote. And the reason a re-vote is the only hope for Rossi is that the Republicans don’t have evidence for a legal contest.
Well, that and the fact that they lost the legal, definitive hand-recount and the case before the Supreme Court.
Comment by John— 1/5/05 @ 11:29 am
The only legitimacy tainted by the 2000 election was a system of manual recounting that allows partisans to manufacter votes. Fortunally, equal protection is “da rules.”
Bob from Boeing-
Be prepared Bob….when the Inauguration Ball is cancelled at the last minute in the name of truth and justice, “Boners in the Shower” will be replaced by that Country Western singer singing Chris’ new theme song (slightly modified):
“It’s a classic case of a woman scorned,
She’ll make us Elephants wish we’d never been born.
She’s a fifty-somethin’ year-old judge and jury,
Hell hath no fury like the revenge of a middle-aged attorney!!
You all, there’s nothing saying that a revote couldn’t happen in March or April. Or even in May?
Besides, we Rossifarians (please remember there ARE Dinocrats, please) know a revote now – after Gregovych’s tone to one – will end up in a Rossi win.
Thanks, Josef, for pointing out that it’s all about winning. Not the integrity of the system, or counting votes, or principle. Just winning.
Comment by Christine G— 1/5/05 @ 2:59 pm
I did NOT say that. What I said, silly, was that the Gregoire tone would make people angry enough. I saw her on TVW and several times, I just about lost it. But that’s me the politician.
The reason why I said we could wait until May (besides the fact that the state budget runs until 30 June is that the auditors may (and will) need time to make things right.
Think before you ink!
Comment by De Espresso Latte— 1/5/05 @ 2:14 pm
A final manual count is ‘das rules’ dumbass.
Well said Christine G
The fact is, the margin of victory in our governor’s race falls well within the margin of error (administrative or criminal). Given that, doesn’t it make sense to go back now, address all the eligibility questions that can be addressed, and vote again. Yes, this would be expensive, but not as costly as having a governor that would surely be seen as something less than legitimate by half the people. Or a governor that faces a recall if hard evidence of voter fraud emerges. Or a governor that won office through the courts. If people changed their votes, than so be it. Who can argue that that would not be a voter’s right.
Neither of these candidate’s governorships could possibly be more important than restoring confidence in our election system. I call on Gregoire and Rossi to declare victory and concede that the election have lost its capacity communicate the will of the people-then commit to a revote. And God help the winner that doesn’t make reform of our election practices their first priority.
Vance finally hits (some) paydirt
The Rossi team migt have actually dug something up. Hate to say it is so, but it is. The placement of non-verified provisional ballots in the containers for normal voters is bad. This is evidence of failure to keep the ballots secure and an unknown number of likely non-valid ballots into the bin of ballots whose voter has been permitted to vote.
If the provisional ballots did not have a signature envelope on them, this would be the worst of all worlds. Yes, I believe this is the first legimate accusation sufficient to have the court overturn the governor’s election if the number of provisonal ballots were sufficient.
However, it is only an accusation which could easily fall apart as quick as the GOP’s handwriting expert.
Q: Does this mean there should be a re-vote
A: No. A fact finding should, and likely will be done in an election contest. A trial court needs to determine first the veracity of the statemnents being made and what actually happened. This is the purpose of the contest statute.
Q: If true, will the 300 (alleged) mispalced ballots overturn the election results in court.
A: Difficult to tell. The court is still going to require that the extra ballots have the chance to overturn the election which statistically would require around 850 mishandled provision ballots.
The court may also refuse to even speculate how those provisional voters voted. Plus, even if 20 percent of provisional ballots were thrown out, Rossi would need to locate 5 x 129/.2 [don’t ask :)]= 3225 provisonal ballots that were placed in with the other ballots.
(Rossi can’t argue that the provisonal voters are not allowed to vote, only that a percent of them would have been discarded.)
Your “Tables Turned” Question back at you. Don’t tell me, especially you Goldy, that if Chrissy won first count, second count, lost third count (by 129) and all these problems existed you would go quietly in the night. All of you libs would be screaming. Don’t deny it be honest with yourselves. We are asking for nothing more then you would be asking for. So quite acting as if you are superior to the R’s and admit you would be doing the same.
Comment by John— 1/5/05 @ 3:18 pm
Somehow I suspect that there will be very little that’s final about the final manual recount.
Hi Josef –
What is going to be done to make things better? Soundpolitics found a crazy homeless guy and a dead woman voting absentee. Is there something that can be done between now are May – or at all – that would be politically acceptable and practically implemented by then that will prevent these sorts of events?
I think there isn’t.
I don’t care that much who is governor, personally. I do care about the irresponsible rhetoric from the Republican side. Nothing good can come of it.
Hi Erik –
Did the handwriting expert fall apart already? I hadn’t heard.
Hi Chris –
I beg to differ. Recent Democratic history in this regard differs from Rossi’s approach. Remember this – http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20.....51213.html ?
And then way, way, way back, a Republican not known for his ethics declined to put the country through an election contest for the good of the country. Pretty amazing to think – maybe Nixon would have been assassinated in Dallas and Kennedy would have got us out of Vietnam.
“I don’t care that much who is governor, personally. I do care about the irresponsible rhetoric from the Republican side. Nothing good can come of it.”
Comment by Christine G— 1/5/05 @ 3:32 pm
I respectfully disagree, Christine G. You should dismiss the irresponsible rhetoric as politics. The Republicans are just trying to win. But that rhetoric has pushed this issue to the national forefront and through that opens our opportunity to address our election problems.
Comment by Christine G— 1/5/05 @ 3:37 pm
Please don’t even try to use Al Gore as an example of how Dems “Concede” honorably. You are embarrassing yourself. Al gore fought tooth and nail. There was a very good post left here a couple days ago(By whom I forget – Sorry), directed at Goldy, that laid out step by step the extrodinary steps AL Gore and the Dems took against the 2000 election result. So enough of the revisionist history and let’s stick to the truth and the facts. YOU WOULD HAVE THE SAME COMPLAINTS AND CONCERNS IF THE TABLES WERE TURNED.
Josef — What makes you think Rossi’s appearances and all this crap is endearing him to anyone? Frankly, when I see him talking about revotes it makes my blood boil. Honest to God, it would be a knock-down, drag-out because the partisans on both sides would be absolutely rabid in getting out the vote. If anything, my already low opinion of him has sunk dramatically. He now comes off as a whiny, hypocritical and egotistical twit. Take the high ground and concede, and he would have had a political future. But the longer he drags this on, the more likely he is to wind up, along with Chris Vance, having a big old glass of warm milk with Ellen Craswell.
Boners in the Shower, by the way, will be playing the local Elks Hall all week.
And Chris, if the tables were turned, we’d all be screaming bloody murder. That’s true. To a point. I think Chris Gregoire has actually shown a great deal of reserve and yes, class. I actually used to work for her briefly in another life and I would be shocked if she didn’t step up and call an end to it if she were in Rossi’s shoes. After all, she’s the one who said she wouldn’t participated in a hand-recount if the party didn’t pay to count votes in ALL counties, not just King. She’s the one who said, before the final tallies were in, that she would accept the final hand count.
Dems still have to figure out which one of the demo dames they are going to sacrifice. Maria or Cantwell. …..
And this isn’t Righty spin….it comes from the left….Read Robert Jameson’s article in the Seattle times. He spells it out quite nicely…that’s assuming you read something other than the funny pages and the op ed page. (which is fill with a bunch of leftist crap) I mean the Seattle time endorses Rossi for Gov…and you guys claim that it’s a right wing rag…
No, I claim it’s a right wing rag because it’s published by a yahoo who continually puts his personal business interests at the forefront of any editorial decisions they make.
And get it right, please: Maria IS Cantwell. You mean Gregoire or Cantwell, I presume. And you’re right. Cantwell could have been in trouble. But with all the crap Dino is pulling, I think we Ds are going to have our senator and our governor, too. Thank you, Dino. You’re a pal!
Cheryl
Road manager, Boner in the Shower.. Greatest hits CD due in stores Feb. 1
Maria or Cantwell. …..
It’s almost tea time Rob.
Comment by Cheryl the Proud Progressive— 1/5/05 @ 3:49 pm
Of course she would except the results of the hand recount, it was here last option she had already lost the first two. She never had the lead after any of the first two counts so on what grounds would she not accept the results of the last count????????? All of this “Class” you say she showed was also before the exposure of these problems. I don’t beleive she would be so classy, as you describe her , if she lost and the hand count she said she would live with after all these problems were identified. At least Dino had one the first two counts and “Lost” the third. He has reason to complain. I firmly beleive Chrissy would contest the election based upon these problems without winning a single count.
At least Dino had one (won) the first two counts
Goldy–
The train is leaving the station. All Aboard!!!
I just heard Tom McCabe of BIAW on John Carlson’s show. He said there were 52 felons who voted…in Pierce County. And apparently King Co. is stonewalling with public information.
And remember how I repeatedly told you to watch what they find in the box of Affadavits delivered by the emotional Leader of the Washington State Democratic Party???? Go read about it on SoundPolitics.
It’s even worse than I thought.
Keep in mind there are a lot of others working on the data statewide. This is only what BIAW found. I’ll bet there is much, much more.
When we have that revote, I can just hear Independent Voters saying:
“I’m voting for Chris Gregoire because she tried to minimize the truth about the massive election problems. I want a Governor who will put her head deep in the sand! She has a proven track record of this”.
I can only hope the Democratic Party Legislators actually go ahead and certify this!!! Every single one who votes YES will be branded.
As Brad Paisley’s new song goes: “Sometimes you gotta get a little mud on the tires.”
But the longer he drags this on, the more likely he is to wind up, along with Chris Vance, having a big old glass of warm milk with Ellen Craswell.
Amen.
Rossi – Salesman = Craswell = 100% WCU approved.
I can only hope the Democratic Party Legislators actually go ahead and certify this!!!
Yes, Puhleeze Demos show some backbone and just say no to the BIAW and their candidate.
Hi Chris –
Not my fault if you don’t understand honor and dignity.
No, I’m not as much of a blind partisan as you are, because I HAVE been on the other side, and SUPPORTED moving on after 2000, although the magin (adjusted for number of votes) was about as close, and the Florida election system was a travesty compared with Washington (or almost any other state).
Gore exhausted his legal options, as Dino is as well. Remeber Gore NVER had a lead in Florida and after all the legal options were exhausted he still lost. Even after cerification and Bush being sworn in munerous media outlets and colleges recounted and recounted and recounted……….Never coming up with a gore lead. So the fact is all it takes is one more “Legitimate” vote to win and election and it is clear Bush had more then required, no matter how pissed off you are about it. If Chrissy has one more “Legitimate” vote then Dino when all legal means are exhuasted to verify and clarify I will gladly except the result. But until all of this is cleared up there is no legitamcay in her position.
I recommend you find a better argument then Al Gore and the 2000 Election. Of course you have moved on, you have no grounds by which not to. And by the way, based upon what do you say; “Not my fault if you don’t understand honor and dignity”. Is it not honorable and dignified to stand up in the face of uncertanity and fight for clarity and truth? If Chrissy really won, you should not be concerned. All we are trying to do is to stop illegal voting from occuring, correct the errors of election workers and possibly fraud. Is that not honorable and dignified? Why don’t you want this done? I say you may be the one that does not understand honor and dignity.
dearest josef, You come across like a little scorned school boy having to throw ‘name updates’ with your slavik add on. What happened, did you have a slavik teacher that spanked your fanny? I guess all of us should start talking of you as JOSEPHINE, the closet queen
josef–
jim p is like most Kievian’s–no sense of humor about their heritage. As I’ve said before, “King County would not be in such a snarl…if Marx had been Groucho instead of Karl!!! One way to show these guys jim p Josef:
Get those e-mails josef…call Norma.
Comment by Chris— 1/5/05 @ 4:01 pm
On what count could she contest the results? THE SAME GROUNDS DINO WOULD USE!!!!!!!! having ‘one’ or lost any of the counts has fuck-all to do with having legal grounds for contesting the election.
Comment by John— 1/5/05 @ 4:45 pm
One more time for the slow in the group. Read my post closer. I clearly state that I beleive she would do the same thing even if the table were turned. Even if she did not win a single count I beleive she would contest the election based upon the porblems that have surfaced. My comment about on what grounds would she contest the results was related to her commitmment that she would except the results of the 3rd count, without the problems that have since been identyfied she would have not had any grounds to contest that result. She was been labeld classy for her stance and I say she only said that becasue AT THE TIME SHE HAD NO OTHER LEGAL OPTION AND HAD NO GROUNDS TO CONTEST ANYTHING. Of course this changed but at the time of her “Classy” comment she had no way of knowing this.
OOOOHHHHH GGGGOOOOOLLLLLDDDYYYYYYYY!
Where are UUUUUUU!
I recall you previously expressed some contempt for BIAW.
But you have also expressed a desire to get to the botton of this election AND make systemic improvements in the future.
Putting 2 and 2 together makes me believe on this one anyway, you are on the same side of the fence as BIAW and many of us.
Goldy, you knew darn well this was never going to get swept under the rug, didn’t you? I appreciate that you stirred the pot and made folks really think, but you knew.
So, should Berendt take the responsibility if what BIAW alleges was in that box of Affadavits Berendt brought in is actually true?
Should he resign as Chair of the Democratic Party?
What else should happen?
He vouched for their validity….so shat does that mean?
Just ooooppppss!
Do you think Gregoire wishes she had accepted the Rossi “olive-branch”?
How much more is yet to come?
Can Gregoire win a revote?
How does she explain away her attesting publicly that this was a fair election?
If the Dems continue to fight this and even more damning examples of fraud come out, where will that leave the Democratic Party?
Should the Feds come in now or later? Then you can blame Bush!!
Will you allow Gregoire’s ego to cause further damage?
Lot’s of speculation Goldy, I know. But I can pretty much assure you there are many more arrows in the quiver. It’s not like Tom McCabe to launch everything at once, is it?
Chuck – just why are you intererested an any adult’s bedroom? Gay or straight>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have no interest in your bedroom, Peter I simply think that gays dont need to be teaching childred and a few other things. What thed do is thier buisiness but I dont approve personally.
Cheryl the Proud Progressive, I quit working for the Bethel School District about 16 years ago but I can still give lessons…..
mi·sog·y·nis·tic (m-sj-nstk) KEY also mi·sog·y·nous (-sj-ns) KEY
ADJECTIVE:
Of or characterized by a hatred of women.
You are welcome
Comment by Christine G— 1/5/05 @ 3:32 pm
Sport, I think you can cleanse the voting rolls and take emergency actions. Screw political correctness, I say.
I’m really reluctant to continue this debate w/ you… I mean, you seem to be one of the inconvincible hard-liners.
Cynical, Jeff B et al… unlike Stefan, I happen to have a real life to attend to… and unlike Tim Eyman, nobody pays me for my political “activism.” I’ve got a mortgage to pay and a child to feed. So forgive me if I don’t always have the time to wade through your incessant bleating, whether it be here, or on (u)SP.
First, let me just say that I don’t trust your BIAW as far as I can spit, so I’ll take everything coming from them as a lie or exaggeration until proven otherwise. This is the most loathsome, viciously partisan political organization in the state, and Dino Rossi should be ashamed to be “the BIAW candidate.” So borrowing the colorful patois of truckdriver-turned-spokesperson Erin Shannon, please deliver back to BIAW HQ my personal “Fuck you!”
Second, it doesn’t take a lawyer to parse the BIAW’s carefully worded press release to understand that their lawyers understand that 130 illegal votes may be grounds for a contest, but not necessarily grounds for setting aside the election.
Now, the sycophants over at (u)SP may have their heads so far up their partisan asses that they actually believe that all felons vote Democratic, and Democrats are much more likely to cheat than Republicans… but BIAW attorneys know that dog simply won’t hunt in a court of law. You are going to have to PROVE IT! At the very least, you are going to have to show some evidence… some pattern… that a sufficient number of irregularities or illegal votes benefited Gregoire. And frankly, finding dead Republicans from Sammamish casting votes, doesn’t quite cut it.
This has never been about setting aside this election — the BIAW knows they have snowball’s chance of that — this has always been about defaming Christine Gregoire and the Democratic party. And the BIAW could apparently give a flying fuck about how many careers they destroy or people they unfairly malign in the process.
Do I have contempt for the BIAW? They are beneath contempt. They view democracy as just another tool for achieving their selfish business agenda. Everything I need to know about the BIAW I learned from their fascist I-841 campaign… “Workers Against Job-killing Rules” my ass! So I don’t just want to take their charges with a grain of salt, I’d like to take it with a huge hunkin’ rock of salt, and bash their heads in with it.
Figuratively speaking, of course.
(Man… it felt good to vent for a change.)
Comment by Cheryl the Proud Progressive— 1/5/05 @ 3:49 pm
I see, you too are from the far-left who doesn’t get it yet: THE ELECTION IS FOULED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION.
NOW, WE HAVE SOMETHING: http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....unt05.html
PARDON MY TEMPER, BUT FOR PAUL BERENDT ON GREGOIRE 2004 LETTERHEAD TO CALL OUR WARRIORS LIARS W/O OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL!
Comment by Goldy— 1/5/05 @ 6:46 pm
You can rest assured, I am ashamed to call them among my bretheren. I won’t bite on their signature rhetoric and on my blog I exposed them as being the sole purveyors of a nasty claim against Gregoire. But you should too of Paul Berendt.
“All of this “Class” you say she showed was also before the exposure of these problems”
Thanks, Chris. God Bless You, my fellow Rossifarian!
Comment by jim p— 1/5/05 @ 4:30 pm
GO FUCK YOURSELF.
Feel better Goldy–
It’s amazing that lettin’ ‘er rip once in awhile can really be uplifting. It can also help you keep you in denial. You failed to address the issue of the Berendt affadavits. How convenient!!
Go ahead and continue to say everyone is suspect until you see the proof if it makes you feel better. “You are who you are, that’s all right by me. But I am who I am that’s ALL I can be”. Montgomery -Gentry. Like most Country Western groups—good conservative folks.
Although I understand Berendt is also a COuntry Western fan—especially loves Hank Williams. You know “Your Cheatin” Heart”!
The libs see this election slipping through their fingers and they are now very scared. You can see it in their posts and in the fact they fear a re-vote. They are out of touch and in denial. They continue to say nothing has been proven. I ask them, if it is proven (not quite sure what it would take to prove fraud to a lib – may be impossible) that Felons and Dead people voted, Provsionals were placed directly into machines before there legitimacy was verified (an unresolvable problem – they are mixed with legit ballots) , you know all the problems I don’t need to list them. Would you support a re-vote? Is there a scenario, other then if Dino had a 129 vote lead that would make you support a re-vote? There is no credibility in this 129 vote lead and we all know it. Stop trying to blame the R’s for the situation we find ourselves in, they are just exposing the flaws and the reality. Start blaming the people that voted illegally, cast illegitimate provsions & placed them in voting machines before being vetted. Blame the Poll workers and the county election employees. Just because those finding these issues are partisan and have partisan motivations for looking for them does not change the facts. If I went out and found the killer of my best friend, I would clearly be biased against this person but it would not change the fact that he killed my friend. He is to blame, he is the criminal, he committed the act of his own free will, don’t blame me because I caught him at it. (hypothetical – my best friend was not murdered – save you from asking)
WASHINGTON — When the joint session of Congress meets Thursday to certify the Electoral College votes that gave President Bush his second term, several Democratic House members are expected to contest the results.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143452,00.html
Another example of how the dem’s are so much better then the Republicans. We really can learn a lesson from these guys, as was stated in earlier posts, they have Honor and Dignity, so were told. What a Joke. The presidential election is not even in question, for sane people anyway. But Democrat leadership want to contest the results when the electoral college certifies, you guys are a laughing stock to the general public. Talk about moving on, I can’t wait to hear from people on this blog that support this insane position. If you even consider this as a viable position, how dare you criticize Dino for contesting under these truly suspicious circumstances.
personally instead of an re-vote how about chris vance vs paul berendt dueling pistols at about five feet. Hopefully they both will hit their target and we won’t have to listen to either one of these pinheads again. I’d let christine be the governor for 12 years if Pb and cv would just shut the fuck up forever
So Chris – Despite numerous Dems here who have made it absolutely clear that they didn’t support the calls for contesting the election in 2000 and don’t support it now, you’re going to blame us for what some Dems in other states might be doing? And since when do “several house members” count as Democratic leadership? That’s a huge leap. That’s like me saying that Republican leadership supports executing abortion doctors because of Tom Coburn in Oklahoma.
I don’t support what the Dems are doing, because I don’t think it’s the right way to which call attention to voting problems. I also don’t support the completely bogus Republican argument that our election is “so messed up” that we need a revote. Close elections in a two-party system will always leave about 50% of the people unsatisfied. No vote counting method is perfect and has no margin of error.
Since Republicans have been more than happy to ignore the problems in Florida of 2000 (which were well within the margin of error) and Ohio, and were more than happy telling Gregoire to concede during the first count and the automatic count in this election, they should follow their own advice and concede.
Concede, and work on getting more votes for your guy next time. If you’re really serious about election reform, ask your senator to sponsor a real election reform bill.
jcricket–The spinmeister extraordinaire!
Listen to yourselves. Does the truth of what’s happened mean nothing? You’d have to be delusional to think that this election anything but irrevocably flawed. Let’s abandon this goat rope and give the next governor of Washington a mandate to lead. That’s what’s important. Let’s grow up and show our children how reasonable people settle differences. Revote.
It sure DID play out as state law intended…..state law says only democrats may win close electins. King county will SEE TO IT!!
Comment by jcricket— 1/5/05 @ 8:31 pm
So Nancy Pelosi is not Democrat leadership????????? She is a nut job withotu question and democrat leadership as well.
As far as blaming you for what dems in other states do I clearly asked for and was looking for Dems on this blog that support this proposed contest of the presidential election. If that is not you then I am not blaming you am I?
What problems in florida were not investigated / ognored? Just Al gore fought all the legal battle she could, counts were done after Bush was sworn in. Gore still lost – accept it. When all the legal options have been exhausted and the legitmate votes are counte and illegitmate are not then I too will accept that result whatever it is. As far as 50% being unhappy with the result of most elections, so what. Does it make it ok to put someone in office that may not have truly been voted in just becuase no matter what 50% of the people won’t like it.
Chrissy did not concede regardless of the calls for her to do so and you would have crucified her for doing so. I know you don’t truly expect Dino to concede just as I knew Chrissy would not.
so other then the fact that your arguments back at me did not hold water – good job.
I say again, people, ARE YOU DEAD? Democrats and Republicans. It’s not about you. It’s about democracy. I’ve worked in the developing nations most of my adult life (I’m writing from Colombia). The world pines for what we have-democratic choice and rule of law. Trust me, the world is watching. We no longer have the luxury of thinking in terms Democrat or Republican. Let’s show the nation and the world what fair and transparent mean. Revote.
Comment by Josef— 1/5/05 @ 6:49 pm
from the story:
“Republican election observers in King County said they saw hundreds of provisional ballots go straight into the voting machines on Election Day without any checks — and since the provisional ballots look just like regular ballots, there’s no way to tell how many were counted.”
If true, why weren’t these dishonest jackassess saying a word about it for two full months after the election? Was it the official GOP position that fraud was irrelevant so long as Dino was ahead? They way I look at it these observers are either lying about it now, or were willfully concealing evidence of illegal activity then. Either way I’d say it’s criminal.
Comment by Josef— 1/5/05 @ 7:05 pm
Now, Now Josephine, let’s sully our pretty little mouths with such vile rehtoric.
The guilt finally got to the election workers. If there wasn’t hell being raised they may never have not said a word. I guess when they looked in the nirror in th emorning they realized they had to live with them sleves and the knowledge they knew the election results – vote tallys were tainted.
It late – I can’t type – but you get the point (I hope)
Goldy, you might want to take a breather from this, I think it is getting to you.
Your argument basically consists of making excuses for why he can’t post or analyze as much as SP, ad-hominem attacks on the BIAW, profanity and the suggestion that even though felons may have voted, the might have voted Republican and therefore it won’t be enough to overturn the election.
You folks here just don’t get it. This is not about how many felons that voted, who they voted for, etc. This is about an election that is so flawed that outside of your liberal cocoon, it is the laughingstock of the entire state. Most of the people in this state do not trust the result of this election. So all of your whining over the details of what exactly is the meaning of fraud and illegitimacy is just echo chamber banter.
For the rest of us, we are going to point out the obvious. The election was flawed beyond the point of an accurate result. This offends rational people. You can either admit this, or stay inside your cocoon beliving that a 120 vote win for Gregoire is more legitimate than a 42 vote win for Rossi, while hundreds of cases of illegitimate ballots keep poping up.
Meanwhile, for all rational Washingtonion, our majority opinion will be enough to drown out even your best attempts to sweep this under the rug.
Comment by Jeff B.— 1/5/05 @ 11:52 pm
Nicely said
Jeff B… over a month ago, before the hand recount started, I stated that this election was too far within the margin of error to confidently determine winner, and your hero, the Snark, made fun of me for it. The only difference between now and then, is that now we know what some of these errors might have been.
I have no doubt that the Rossi/BIAW/GOP PR campaign has been successful in convincing many in the public that this election, particularly in King County, is so corrupt and error plagued as to make the results illegitimate. But the truth is, the only thing extraordinary about this election is its closeness.
All elections are flawed, and yet a one vote margin is all that’s required to win. The statute clearly anticipates that elections are flawed, and thus provides that close elections be decided by the rule of law. To toss out this election based on the “evidence” alleged thus far would suggest that all close elections should be tossed out, because any result within the margin of error cannot be trusted.
It does not surprise me to find evidence of felons voting, or other errors and irregularities; I’ve always assumed these occurred. What would surprise me would be to find evidence that these irregularities favored one candidate or another. And so far, I haven’t seen evidence of a single illegal vote, a single error, or a single act of misconduct on behalf of Gregoire. That is Rossi’s burden of proof.
Quite frankly, I’m beginning to get disgusted with Rossi’s callous disregard for the integrity of the electoral process as he pompously claims to be defending it. He should be ashamed at trotting out a military voter, when there is no evidence that military ballots were sent out late. And he should be embarrassed at raising the issue of an “8000 vote discrepancy” in counts that were never intended reconcile.
You people have been jumping on every rumor, every half-truth or total lie, as “evidence” of a stolen election, all the while eroding the public’s faith in elections and in government. And then when the truth comes out, and the lie is exposed, you just move on to the next scandal. You are branding Democrats as liars and cheaters and crooks, and Seattle as an out-of-control tyrant. In your anger, and disappointment — and hatred of people who disagree with you — you are sowing political divisiveness that will take years to heal.
(Of course, I am using the royal “you.”)
All I can say is that Rossi better damn well hope the BIAW digs up the goods, because if he backs down now, or goes to court and loses, his political ass is toast.
Goldy, you are missing the whole thing here, Dino win or lose will still be viable after this, sweet Chrissy is done…toast exept for a few of you hardcore dems. She has finished herself, not just with the handcount but with the crass sarcastic fuck the voter bitch attitude she has donned
Comment by john— 1/5/05 @ 10:42 pm
I agree – they should have came forward sooner. But maybe they were under contract not to talk. Who knows? They’ll be under oath, soon enough.
Analogy for Glody – Using your mindset, using steroids in baseball is ok because if Barry Bonds does and hits a whole lot of home runs, you are sure he would have hit all of those hoemeruns anyways, with or without steroids. Add besides you would be sure that every team had just a many steroid users another and that their honerun counts increased by just as many homeruns as Barry Bonds. Is it not possible that some teams (Canidates) don’t have steroid users? or as many? So there homerun totals and possibly their winning percentage (votes) may not be “Enhanced” by this questionable behavior, where as other teams wins would or could be enhanced? So everybody’s doing it, it happens all the time, so it must be right wins out again in Goldy’s world.
Maybe the eyewitnesses are mistaken or lying.
No wait, that never happens. People never intentionally lie, give false affidavits or or misunderstand what they saw. And they’re never “incentivized” to do so by a interested third-party.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html
Do you know why most of the people freed from Death Row were convicted? False eyewitness testimony, sometimes from multiple people. Even in the most serious of circumstances, eyewitnesses are very unreliable.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/witness.htm
Using your baseball analogy Chris, I would argue that we live in an imperfect world, with an imperfect baseball league, and I’m not going to toss out the 2004 season because Barry Bonds because some players may have used steroids. What I would argue for is reforming the rules so that we can try to minimize steroid use in the future.
Nobody has yet shown me a single illegal ballot known to have been cast in Gregoire’s favor. Nobody has shown me that any of the errors or irregularities disproportionately benefited Gregoire. And nobody has shown me that this election is any less perfect that any other election, or any less perfect than a new election would be.
The only difference between this election and most elections is that it was close. And that’s simply not enough of a reason to set it aside.
there is no mechanism to “Contest” a baseball season and have it thrown out, so your comment; “and I’m not going to toss out the 2004 season because Barry Bonds because some players may have used steroids”. is not relevant. If there was a means, within the rules of baseball – as there is in our election law – to contest a season it may just have been done, but none exists in baseball but does in election law.
No… it would be nuts to contest a baseball season just like it would be nuts to throw out this election.
Let me ask you this… if there had been no hand recount (Dems couldn’t raise the money) and Rossi was certified the winner by 42 votes… and then we found hundreds of irregularities in King County, but no evidence that they benefited one side or the other… would you be arguing to set aside this election? Think Stefan would? No way… he’d be using his “statistics” and Jim Miller’s “distributed vote fraud” crappola to “prove” that Rossi really won by a several hundred votes.
This is pure partisan crap. Rossi wouldn’t be raising any of these issues if he won.
The fact is, we have imperfect elections. The fact is, some of them are damn close. And the fact is, we just don’t throw out an imperfect election because it is damn close. It’s not enough to suspect the errors changed the outcome… it is not enough to believe it. There has to be some evidence to show that this election was less perfect than the acceptable norms, or that the irregularities actually accrued to Gregoire in sufficient quantities to have changed the outcome.
You don’t like it, change the statute so that candidates have to win with a margin greater than 0.5% or whatever totally arbitrary number you think the threshhold should be.
“This is pure partisan crap. Rossi wouldn’t be raising any of these issues if he won.”
As evidenced by the PI sotry cited above:
“At a Bellevue news conference, Vance produced a Republican-appointed King County election worker, Joe O’Donnell, who said he personally witnessed about 150 to 300 provisional ballots go straight into AccuVote tabulating machines on Election Day without any voter verification.
“O’Donnell, a college student, said he pointed out the improprieties to polling place supervisors, but by then it was too late to separate the ballots of questionable validity from other ballots.”
Since O’Donnell was there on the GOP’s behalf, which means that they party knew of the very same problems they are now saying invalidate the election when Rossi was ahead by 42 votes and they were demanding Gergoire concede. What complete and total frauds.
Also, I’d like to know what precent O’Donnell worked in so that it can be verfied if there is a 150-300 vote discrepency in THAT PRECINT. If not, then it is clear O’Donnell is lying and he shoudl be persecuted for it. Also, can the GOP produce any evidence to support his claim of having brought this issue up contemporaneously?
This is pure partisan crap. Rossi wouldn’t be raising any of these issues if he won.
Comment by Goldy— 1/6/05 @ 12:27 pm
Of course Rossi would not be raising any of these issues if he won the hand count, but Gregoire would. that’s how it works the one that is certified the winner would not look for these problems, the onus falls on the one that lost, like it or not that is the reality. So ne he would not raise the issues but you can bet your ass Gregoire would be. Reality, honesty, common sense, that’s all I’m looking for. I would not be touting the voting problems if the roles were reversed but I sure would expect that you would be. And I would fully expect you or gregoire to want these issues answered. and would be well within your rights to contest the election. But again, as the “Certified” winner – no one is going to raise issues about the election – Right or wrong it’s reality.
Comment by Chris— 1/6/05 @ 2:53 pm
So,you admit that this has bugger-all to do with the intergity of the system and everything to do with Rossi not being the winner.
Of course, if the roles were reversed, you and all the other Rossiites would be screaming at the top of your lungs about those dastardly democrats trying to steal the election. I guess one thing is constant, GOPers smearing Dems.
Comment by john— 1/6/05 @ 7:06 pm
Yes that is what I am admitting. It is time for everyone to quit “spinning” and be honest. I would be concerned with the problems of this election even if Rossi had the lead but I would leave it to the Dems to research the errors, just as the R’s are doing and I would expect them to contest the election. Hell no I would not do it if Rossi had the lead just as I don;t expect the dems to do it now. But what I do expect, just as I would do if roles were reversed, that Dems would respect the right of the R’s to do everything they are doing and to understand if roles where reversed you would do the same. There are clearly problems with this election, possibly fraud and yes I feel it is the responsibilty of the party that trails at this point to identify these problems. I would never expect the leader to do the work to unseat themselves but I would expect that work to be done by the other party. So let’s all stop pretending here, be honest and let the process run its course. Quit criticising the efforts of the R’s, they only do what is expected. Support the fact they have the right and obligation to do so just as I support the right the dems have to sit back and investigate nothing. The onus is on us so sit back and let the established legal process continue.
Stop kidding yourself that your position would be the same if Gregoire trailed by 129 votes. you’d want a re-vote and I would be the one not wanting one. The difference being, I would certainly expect it to happen based upon the probelms identyfied and would respect your right to fight for one. Would I like it? No because I am biased just as all of you are, by I am honest and just because I would not like it does not mean it is not the right thing to do. sometimes you have to do things that you don’t like, when it’s the right thing, it’s part of life. The one’s that hold the real influence on this may just be the unbiased citizens that are not partisan. And it appears by polls etc. that they support a re-vote for legitimate reasons, not because they are biased one way or another. (like all of us here.)
Chris, I appreciate the honesty. Frankly, I don’t believe Gregoire would have contested the election had she lost the hand recount (and that is an informed opinion), although I certainly would have advised the Dems to research the option extensively.
That said, my main beef is not with the efforts to uncover fraud and irregularities, but with the dishonest PR campaign that has surrounded it. Many of the issues raised thus far are non-issues, and they know it. Yet they continue to use insinuation and innuendo to whip up public opinion that this election is hopelessly flawed or corrupt. But from what I’ve seen so far, it is not. It is just as imperfect as all elections, the only difference being that this one is extremely close.
Comment by Goldy— 1/6/05 @ 11:22 pm
She may not have if she lost all 3 counts, nor would have Rossi. but I am sure she would have if in Rossi’s position of win first two loose third.
Lose