So you, or your wife or daughter might be forced to by an insurance policy under the threat of federal penalty, and one of the prime actors in shaping part of that that bill, the Bart Stupak sepsis amendment, was the Catholic Church.
Which, you know, is great if you’re a devout Catholic. It’s more than a bit problematic if you believe, just as sincerely, that government inserting itself into one of the most private and painful medical decisions families face is flat out wrong.
But hey, it’s not like the the Catholic Church doesn’t have a track record of scuzzy political actions and inserting itself into painful, private family decisions. From The Wall Street Journal:
The bishops have a history of political activism. In the 2004 presidential race, some bishops said they would refuse to grant communion to Democratic nominee John Kerry, a Catholic who favored abortion rights. In 2005, the bishops’ conference backed efforts by then-President George W. Bush and Republican lawmakers to intervene in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die case. But rarely has the church entered the fray with such decisive force.
The Catholic Church often does stand-up work in regards to social justice issues, so it’s more than a bit troublesome that the larger social justice issue of health care reform is being subverted by the very same organization. It’s a shame, too, because there are many, many Catholics in the Democratic Party, but the leadership of the church leaves, um, a lot to be desired. If you want people to respect your religion, you need to show proper respect for the beliefs of others.
Now, if one sincerely believes that abortion is wrong, that is fine. There are others who believe that abortion will happen no matter what the law of the land is, as pre-Roe v. Wade history shows us, and that the results will be horrific and barbaric for women. The key question is who gets to make the decision: the state or the individual. Not hearing a lot of noise on that score from the Tea Party folks, are we?
As has always been the case, anti-abortion forces are not sincerely interested in reducing unintended pregnancy, because these are the same people who oppose contraception. It’s about punishing the sluts, pure and simple, and if a whole bunch of women who have problems with desired pregnancies get caught up in the Stupak sepsis amendment by accident, they could care less.
The only silver lining in this awful amendment mess is that I don’t recall such anger and energy on the left in a long time. Congratulations, Bart Stupak-sepsis, you and your pals at the C-Street “Family” house have awakened liberals in a way Obama never could.
You bet your bippy we’re pissed, and we’re not going away. Democrats would be wise to take note.
As an ex-catholic I feel there is many things the church need to answer for. However, the fact that they oppose infantcide is not one of them.
Whether you believe government should “insert itself” into abortion largely depends on whether you believe a fetus is a “cell mass” or an “unborn child.” We liberals certainly believe government has an appropriate role to play in protecting society’s vulnerable members, including children and senior citizens. If you believe a fetus is a “child” then it logically follows that protecting “children” from mothers who want to abort them is an appropriate role of government and within its police powers. In order to argue that abortion should be a “private decision” of the mother in which government, acting in its protective role, has no right to intrude, you pretty much have to believe that a fetus is merely an insentient batch of “cells.” I think neither argument is wholly correct. The problem for me — and for SCOTUS — is figuring out when “cells” become a “person.” No one can answer that question.
“It’s about punishing the sluts, pure and simple”
The Conceptual Guerilla, author of the “cheap labor conservative” article that I’ve posted on HA from time to time, argues that it’s about assuring a plentiful supply of desperate workers so the Cheap Labor Conservatives will be able to hire labor cheap.
Cheap Labor Conservatives also have an interest in maintaining an adequate supply of cannon fodder to go fight their wars of conquest and resource expropriation for them.
So how many of the 5,000,000 unwanted children are you going to adopt Mr. Renner? Kinda hard to force women to have children they don’t want if you won’t step up and adopt the millions we already have that are not wanted now isn’t it?
You want to stop abortions?
Give ALL women good jobs.
Ah, but that would be waaaaaay too easy now wouldn’t it? Better to have a “wedge” issue to get the talibangelicals all worked up over. If you can’t make ’em mad, or scare ’em, what’s the use of preachin’ to ’em right?
BTW. Women who don’t vote deserve having someone else tell them what to do with their bodies….
If not voting was against the law, we probably wouldn’t have a single Republicon in office…
@6 If not voting was against the law, Suzie Hutchison would be a convicted felon and ineligible to run for public office.
Australia is the country that makes it a crime not to vote, and they still only have about 90% turnout, but then again, the punishment for not voting is only a $20 fine.
As for the Stupak Amendment, as usual, pandering to pro-life politicians and voters, they might have written it in a way that it rules out to save the mother’s life, or what about rape and incest. They should at least have come up with a well written amendment.
The Church also has inserted itself way too much in Irish Elections, most recently the Lisbon Treaty Referendums. Ireland’s tradition of neutrality was a major issue about the EU Reform Treaty, but they also were worried about Brussels over-ruling Ireland’s strict Anti-Abortion laws. The Lisbon Treaty failed the first time around in the majority-catholic Republic of Ireland, but passed the second time, although things had changed in the year since the first vote, mainly the collapse of Ireland’s economy, and voters were more concerned with that.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WO.....index.html
@5 “You want to stop abortions?
Give ALL women good jobs”
…or at least, one way or another, provide for families to be able to provide for their needs–food, clothing, shelter and education through the professional level.
There’s nothing…absolutely NOTHING as likely to increase the demand for abortions as hard times.
Roger @ 2
My thinking exactly. Democrats/liberals/progressives protect the vulnerable. Some of us just don’t believe that a few months of cells in a woman’s uterus constitutes “life.” The Bible doesn’t take that position either. Whenever the Old Testament mentions a miscarriage, it is simply mentioned as a statement of fact. There is not the wailing, rending of garments, and gnashing of teeth that usually accompanies an unwanted Old Testament death. When such cells become a “person” does have to do with viability outside the womb, I think, and is otherwise up to the pregnant woman, not up to me. What we do know about those who call themselves “prolife” is that they are generally for capital punishment. There is no question that sticking a needle in the vein of an adult and injecting a lethal dose of whatever is terminating a life, but somehow those who oppose abortion because they are “prolife” aren’t so prolife when it comes to those who are breathing, pissing, and living. And, they also don’t support healthcare reform, even if healthcare reform might help American children live, and live in a healthy manner.
There’s something of an irony here in that it’s the right that’s been whining about how horrid was the prospect of the insurance industry being burdened with Draconian regulations.
If the Catholic Church is really so all-fired concerned about morality, why don’t they attack the blatant mercantilism of our health care system?
Business Week says,
“Drug companies spend about $5 billion a year in the U.S. on ads imploring people to talk to their physicians if they think a pill they’ve read about or seen on TV might help them.”
http://www.businessweek.com/ma.....964719.htm
Not only do drug companies spend FIVE BILLION DOLLARS on TV ads, each and every year, but the ads often are ineffective or drive consumers away from the product! For example, the maker of Ambien spent $151 million on ads last year — and sales of the drug dropped by 37%!
The TV ads alone accounted for 17% of Ambien’s $806 million of revenues in 2008 — in case you’ve been wondering why patent drugs are so expensive … now you know where your money goes. (It sure as hell doesn’t pay for R&D; mostly, taxpayers do.)
Yep! Thanks for that.
Many of the fetuses the Catholic Church wants to be born will end up being exploited as cheap labor.
An article in Barron’s magazine begins,
“The rising tide lifts all ships, but the galley slaves aren’t feeling it. They’re rowing harder than ever to make up for their colleagues who have been thrown overboard … the captain has called for those still manning the oars to pick up the pace[.]”
(Sorry, this one’s not online; you’ll have to buy it or read it at a library.)
The article goes on to propound productivity numbers that are astounding — in the 9.5% range — and describes an employer who’s making what’s left of his workforce work 7 days a week so he won’t have to hire.
What an asshole.
Where is the Church’s outcry about this? Or about the Asian sweatshops, where workers are virtual slaves, that produce Wal-Mart’s goods? Could it be that the Church’s insistence on mothers not killing their children with abortions so employers can kill them with overwork and bad working conditions is a wee bit hypocritical? Or at least morally deficient?
And the Church wants us to look to it for moral guidance?
While I’m on abortion-cum-economic themes here, I may as well also refer you to the Business Week article describing companies that give stock to analysts who say nice things about them — without telling investors.
http://www.businessweek.com/in.....981094.htm
Yeah, there’s a morality tale for ya … the moral being, of course, DON’T TRUST WALL STREET OR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
@10 Well, a cell is definitely “life” (unless it’s dead), but a zygote is hardly a “person” and a fully developed fetus isn’t “not a person,” so somewhere in between the “cell” becomes a “person.” It follows from this that you’re not aborting a “child” early in the pregnancy but you are late in the pregnancy.
The Supreme Court tried to resolve this dilemma by splitting up pregnancy into “trimesters” and permitting more government restriction on the mother’s liberty to get an abortion as the fetus’ development becomes more advanced.
However, we’re talking about law, not morality, and law is not (or, at least, should not be) formulaic and rigid. Even in a restrictive legal environment, courts should have flexibility to weigh the fetus’ life against such interests as the mother’s life or society’s interest in not being burdened with the enormous costs of providing lifetime care for a hopelessly deformed child (e.g., one born without a brain).
Government should not be in the business of attempting to legislate morality, and this is where anti-abortion activists’ arguments for governmental intervention fall apart.
Rabbit,
You do yeoman’s work for Christianity, not that those pious pricks who proclaim their religiosity here every day would ever recognize that. I just don’t ever see them standing up for the least, the downtrodden, the imperiled. Funny how that works.
Abortions are great.
Everyone should have several and they should be easy to have.
Of course those are just random cell masses.
There is no Creator, therefore those cells can be destroyed and should be, as many times as possible to punish Believers…using the money of those Believers.
60 year-old God-hating Lesbians should be able to go into Public Schools and encourge young women to get pregnant and abort and not have to tell their parents.
On a different topic, the Lt Governor’s son has been shot.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/21566795/detail.html
to no5. If you don’t want children don’t have sex. We are talking about innocent life here. A life, and yes a fetus is a baby, who did nothing to deserve to die.
“If you don’t want children don’t have sex.”
1. Tell that to a young woman who has been visciously raped.
2. Women fuck. Grow up and get over it.
“We are talking about innocent life here.”
Implying that ANY medically preventable miscarraige is in fact murder….something I never hear from the shallow moralists.
When they throw away the “leftovers” at the in vetro fertilization clinic, I don’t see your types standing in the alley holding your disgusting signs or shooting random clinic workers. Please explain why.
@20 And what about my friend’s daughter? The one who didn’t go to the doctor because she didn’t have money, or insurance. The one who died of cancer because when the pain got worse, and she did finally “have to” go see the doctor, found out she had 3rd stage cancer? The one who is dead now?
I see the Catholic Hypocrites screaming bloody murder about the tens of thousands of people like her that die every year too right?
(crickets chirping)
The Catholic Church is about only one thing.
Power. (And money)
Always has been, and always will be most likely. What Jesus taught has little to do with anything they, or any other group of today’s “Jezus Freeks” do these days. You don’t see Pat Robertson using his billions to actually help “as many people as he can” now do you?
As far as not having sex, haven’t you heard? People like having sex…. It’s kinda fun.
Someone please tell me why today’s “Christians” seem to ignore practically everything “Christ” taught? For example. C-Street…..
They seem to embrace, and support a system where the “least among us” are either exploited for corporate greed, or urinated on if there is a profit somewhere urinating on them.
Jezussers are the GOTV machine for the corporatist hypocrites (G.O.P.) that are exploiting them. (and killing them for profit) Read “What’s the Matter With Kansas” if you really want to know more.
Jeezusness = Todays Churches
Jezusness has nothing to do with what Christ ACTUALLY taught. Healing the sick, and helping the poor stuff. You know, what Christ actually DID. In fact today’s Jezusness is pretty much the opposite in most cases.
You want to watch someone’s eyes roll? Explain this to a “Christian”.
Voting Republican = Serving Satan
If Jesus were alive, you think he would have voted for Bush/Cheney? The torture twins? If you answer yes your delusions are most likely terminal.
Goldy wrote
What crazy thought pattern is this Goldy? They can leave the religion. Why does the religion have to change? Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy and others can choose to leave the religion and choose one that doesn’t interfere with their political conscience.
If there are more disadvantaged / unwanted children born, they will have more alter boys to play lollipop with.
I just love how “Church Leaders” that covered up, and neglected to report crimes of thousands of cases of child rape were never prosecuted. The same crimes that we would be prosecuted for if we had knowledge of them, and failed to report them.
I guess being a Bishop, or Cardinal, makes you above the law just like a Wall Street Exec….
I guess their Jeezusiness comes before the law!
NoFactsWorthlessPositions
And when Christ, the Son of God returns in the clouds of Glory and you cry for the rocks to fall upon you, then who will you realize you were serving all this time?
Jesus taught all of God’s Law. Jesus said “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17-18 So when did Jesus create the heavens and the earth NoFactsWorthlessPositions? The Old Testament. So the phrase “till heaven and earth pass away” is from Isaiah… Isaiah 51:13 “stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth”
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Luke 24:44 So what is the “law of Moses”, “the prophets”, and “the psalms” NoFactsworthlessPositions? They deliver the entire Old Testament.
Another stupid insipid worthless moronic idiotic HA Libtardo dismissed with prejudice.
The Prosecution Rests Your Honor!
This is why Puddy claims most HA Libtardos belong in the idiot class of peeps. Contrary to popular HA Libtardo conception and lack of facts, the Hyde Amendment does not ban all federal funding for abortion. The yearly Hyde Amendment rider to HHS funding has the exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the pregnant woman.
Butt stay stupid every HA Libtardo. Puddy doesn’t want to destroy stupid libtardo arguments so poorly crafted with no facts and worthless positions. Bart Stupak recognized this hole in HR 3962 wording and closed it.
Another stupid insipid worthless moronic idiotic HA Libtardo argument dismissed with prejudice.
The Prosecution Rests Your Honor!
@2…in many states, when a pregnant woman is murdered, a suspect is charged with the murder of the woman AND the murder of the child.
Apparently THOSE STATES consider the unborn child a person….
@17 It’s been my experience that people who thump the Bible hardest are the least Christian in their behavior.
@18 “There is no Creator, therefore those cells can be destroyed and should be, as many times as possible to punish Believers…using the money of those Believers.”
It’s time for a bit of Truth Squad work here.
Although abortion opponents haven’t succeeded in overturning Roe v. Wade, burning down all the abortion clinics, or assassinating every last abortion doctor, one thing they have achieved is blocking any government funding of abortions.
So, at this point, “the money of those Believers” is not being used for abortions.
But that won’t stop them from bleating! Not on your life! Truth and facts are two things that never get in the way of Wingnut Propaganda! Complaining about their money being used for abortions, even though it’s not, is too good a sound bite to pass up!
@19 Yep, a sad situation for sure — another example of workplace violence. Mark Owens was a business partner of a guy named Fernandez. Apparently there was some sort of dispute between them. So Fernandez shot Owens and himself.
This sort of thing is now almost a daily occurrence in America. Seems anyone with a grievance picks up a gun to make a “statement.”
Maybe it’s time we restricted access to guns? Oh no! That’ll never happen! Not in America!
And so, the senseless killings of innocent people by mental defectives will continue …
nobody seems to be able to respond to post #28.
@19 Another sad example of workplace violence. Seems as though every day in America now, some nut picks up a gun and shoots people to get attention.
Meanwhile, our rightwing friends have an insatiable appetite for war: They want to go to war against Iran to keep that country from getting nukes; and on the homefront, they go to war against liberals to keep guns in the hands of nuts. They don’t make any sense.
@20 A single-cell fertilized egg is not a baby.
@20 (continued) I would submit that an anencephalic fetus is not a baby either. It’s an organism, to be sure, but so is a carrot and an anencephalic fetus or child has no more awareness or conscious existence than a carrot.
@22 I don’t see the Catholic Church giving a hoot about what having 8 or 10 children does to the planet’s ability to support its ever-growing human population, either.
Read Prof. Jared Diamond’s account of the Rwanda genocide to see what I mean. He traces its causes primarily to overpopulation and not enough land.
In primitive Polynesian societies, when their islands became overpopulated, they put the excess people on canoes and expected them to paddle out to sea and disappear forevermore.
I don’t see the Bible thumpers who protest giving teenagers condoms giving a thought to the consequences of too many humans and not enough land or resources to support them all.
@24 “What crazy thought pattern is this Goldy? They can leave the religion. Why does the religion have to change?”
Uh, dummy, the issue here is the Catholic Church trying to impose its beliefs on all Americans, not just those who are Catholic.
@26 Go ahead, puddy, remind us what a Christian and God-fearing organization the party of warmongers, torturers, and greedheads is. We keep forgetting all their Christian good works like donating their old clothing to Goodwill …
@27 “This is why Puddy claims most HA Libtardos belong in the idiot class of peeps.”
You calling us idiots is like the class moron pronouncing that Bertrand Russell is “dumb.”
@28 That’s right. By law, abortion is legal, but killing a pregnant woman is a double murder. That’s how the law works.
As Mr. Magoo famously said, “The law, sir, is an ass.” And anyone who looks to the law as the final and immutable arbiter of weighty philosophical or moral questions is an ass, too.
The law has only one function, and that’s to provide a process for adjudicating and deciding actual disputes, because society needs a mechanism to settle disputes between its members in order to function. That’s all law is good for. Period. Don’t expect brilliant insights or timeless truths to come out of the legal process. The law is full of inconsistencies and contradictions. That’s the way it is, pardner.
The assumption by abortion opponents that changing the law will settle the abortion issue is a strategic blunder. It’s incredible that they ignore the pre-Roe v. Wade history of abortion in this country. Overturning Roe v. Wade would simply mean we’d have illegal abortions instead of legal abortions. But abortion would continue.
Abortion foes also made a huge moral blunder by trying to stop abortions by burning down abortion clinics and murdering abortion doctors. They threw away most of the moral force of their argument when they did that. After they turned into a criminal element, most of the public stopped listening to them.
These folks can’t seem to do anything right.
To end abortions, you must win hearts and minds. Laws won’t stop abortions. Violence won’t stop abortions. The only thing that will stop abortions is changing the culture that is permissive toward abortions. You have to get the people most likely to have abortions to think differently. You can’t get there by threatening them with jail sentences or violence. That simply hardens resistance against your message.
Abortion might have faded away by now, or at least been substantially reduced, if abortion opponents hadn’t been so goddam stupid about how they went about it. They, as much as anyone else, are responsible for the high level of abortions in America.
The forced birthers generally don’t give two shits about kids after they’re out of the womb.
Ask the craptaculating religiously superstitious craptaculators why they oppose living wage jobs, economic justice, readily available child care; adequate funding for early education, meals for low income kids, and K thru College education in general.
Ask them why “forced birth” is more important than economic and social justice and opportunity. Assholes like the Puddy and the Cyniklown won’t answer. They don’t have answers cause they don’t like the question. It doesn’t fit into their “I got mine, asshole…you get yours” Ronnie Ray-gun me-first mentality.
The Catholic Church I grew up in was more concerned with the values of the sermon on the mount. Social Justice…Economic Justice and opportunity. This is what’s changed…a priest friend of mine got run out of a wealthy parish locally because he had the audacity to try to get the parish to support the homeless as much as the school auction.
These shitheels are disgusting.
@41 “The Catholic Church I grew up in was more concerned with the values of the sermon on the mount.”
At least a few of us still are.
“The Catholic Church often does stand-up work in regards to social justice issues”
Oh, where and when did this miracle happen?
“So when did Jesus create the heavens and the earth…”?
Depends. Some variants of Christianity have that Trinity thing. Others, not so much.
I’m still trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the tip of a pinhead like pudxschls.
@44 Here’s a place to start looking:
http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/
Get over yourselves.
Your right to murder unborn babies is untouched.
Having a right doesn’t mean the gov’t has to pay for it.
@10
Comparing capital punishment to abortion is apples and oranges.
a criminal has made choices, taken actions, for which they forfeit their right to live. It’s their choice.
An unborn child has no choice.
As to healthcare reform and childrens health?
There is alreacy SCHIP to address that. Is that the only reason you want government run healthcare?
Personally, I don’t want the government running our healthcare system when they can’t manage medicare now.
It’s NOT about Healthcare
It’s about socialist control of YOUR lives.
The health insurance system that’s being “reformed” actually is one reason the cost of medical care is so high.
The others?
1.Lawyers
2.Gov’t Mandates
3.Those who feel healthcare should be free or partially paid for by someone else other than themselves
Pay for it yourself and the costs will go down.
Too much extistential frisbee and not enough economics in college…eh?
Wow Roger Dumb Bunny, comic book heroes!
Roger Dumb Bunny,
So you reject the Bible? Puddy quoted those verses direct from it.
“Too much extistential frisbee and not enough economics in college…eh?”
Assuming a downward shift in the demand curve, BOTH price AND supply are reduced, c.p.
However, health care is not widgits, midget.
It’s not something having a smooth differentiable indifference curve and appears to be highly correlated with age.
But then you knew that already, Mr. Econ Genius, right?
“So you reject the Bible? Puddy quoted those verses direct from it.”
If he rejects the bible (and how could a rabbit do otherwise?), then your quotes have no meaning.
btw, what so-called version are you quoting from?
The anencephalic babies who are born end up here as trolls and sockpuppets.
X’ad@54,
Another disgusting comment from a progressive HA Libtardo.
You are a “laugh a minute” fool!
Glad you agree Roger Dumb Bunny is really an animal and not a homo sapiens.
rujax is upset he found out what really happened to him.
That’s REALLY good!
(and so so true)
Puddy’s got some superstitious cult bible version like jehovah witness or seventh day adventist or something. Not even a real religion.
Since these Bible-less Libtardos don’t know much about Bible versions.
NKJV – easier to read and is a literal translation to original texts. Puddy made it easy for the non-Biblical fools here on HA to read the Word.
@26 “They deliver the entire Old Testament.”
Then why was that adultress left unstoned? Even he who without sin did not stone her. And if these biblical laws are so darned important that you and Klynical shout them from on high, then why don’t you follow them? We could probably come up with at least four hundred out of six hundred some-odd that you’ve completely ignored in your life. Stone any unruly children lately, Puddy?
@61,
You tell Puddy why Steve? You claim to be a Christian… what say you?
Weasel, I asked you first.
“NKJV – easier to read and is a literal translation to original texts…”
Ha. It appears some would disagree:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/nkjvdead.htm
god bless, pudschlorsx
Biblical law reminds me of Bob Dylan. “Everybody must get stoned”.
NKJV chosen by Puddy today because it speaks to modern concerns of women of all ages. It adds women into the Bible which is not a choice for ProudtoBeAnArschloch. Puddy was being politically correct. So from now on Puddy will revert to KJV.
So much for ProudtoBeAnArschloch
I always beat my children to death when they disrespect me, just like the bible says. And about eating them clams…….
It’s all a load of crap.
ok, wise old Mr Rabbit, tell us uneducated worthless Catholic nurses who work (in my case, used to work) in neonatal intensive care, who care for ‘clumps of cells’ that qualify as feti, what we are supposed to do when we are required to keep the nonviable ‘clumps of cells’ alive and yet again are required to sustain the life of a ‘clump’ of even less gestation, whose parents don’t want ‘it’What do you suggest that we are supposed to DISPOSE of ‘it’, even if it’s breathing??? Got an answer for THAT little moral dilemaa?? Apparantly, abortion isn’t necessarily the answer if the parents chose the pregnancy
Please don’t suggest that I simply choose another specialty: the same thing happens in the ER.
I realize I’m submitting specificities as opposed to concepts. But there’s nothing like getting into the down and dirty. If you can’t walk it like you talk it……… By the way, I’ve also worked with homeless ‘throwaway’ kids, many whose mothers would, these days, choose abortion. Some of them are doing quite nicely, some not. Which one of us should have been designated to choose??
69
You are, of course, lying. You are not a nurse, and you have no experience with regard to what you are talking about. Healthcare professionals would never “dispose” of that which is breathing. Go off, if you would, to a quiet corner and fuck yourself. You are a plant. A tiresome plant.
Mr. Econ Genius?
Wascally Wabbitt….basics and common sense are enough.
But thanks for caring. And don’t call me Mr. I work for a living.
NOT RR but the ASS Dude!
rangerette
You’re spinning your wheels.
The progressive just don’t get it.
BTW: Hooah! 2nd BN ROCKS!
@69,71,72,73 Neither of you gives a whit of evidence that you’d recognize “common sense” if it took a crap on your face.
And “Rangerette”…I agree with Proud Leftist in that I don’t think you really are a nurse, because your rant comes across as an admixture of delusion and buzz words gleaned from watching too many episodes of ER.