Yesterday’s dramatic vote, in which the Senate failed to extend the Patriot Act, was a huge defeat for the GOP leadership and the ever weakening Bush administration. But though it is tempting to dwell on the inside politics, that would only serve to distract from the crucial issue at hand… whether the very basic human liberties we are supposedly defending against terrorists can survive our so-called “War on Terror.”
The Patriot Act had been hastily passed during the understandable hysteria that followed 9/11, with few legislators actually having the time to read the actual bill. But recognizing the importance of protecting the civil liberties that have made our nation the envy of all others, Congress wisely set an expiration date on the Act, so that it’s provisions could be more carefully reconsidered at a later time. Unable to get more protections into the reauthorization, Senate Democrats, along with several key conservative Republican Senators, threatened filibuster. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist needed 60 votes to close debate, but could only garner 52.
WA Senators Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell both voted against cloture. Sen. Cantwell, who rushed back from observing the elections in Iraq to cast her vote, had this to say about her reasoning:
“The federal government has a responsibility to protect our nation from those who may bring terror into our homes. It also has a responsibility to respect our rights and honor our privacy. These principles are not mutually exclusive: we can and must achieve both.”
That is the type of balance we desperately need to maintain if we are really going to protect our freedom. And that is the type of balance we risk losing should we replace Sen. Cantwell and provide President Bush with another reliable Republican vote in the Senate.
UPDATE:
Ken gave a link to this article in the comment threads, and I thought it was worth adding it to the post.
A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung’s tome on Communism called “The Little Red Book.”
The student had requested the book via an inter-library loan; he was told by agents that the book was on a “watch list” and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered an investigation. So what’s the harm, you righties might ask?
Dr. Williams said in his research, he regularly contacts people in Afghanistan, Chechnya and other Muslim hot spots, and suspects that some of his calls are monitored.
“My instinct is that there is a lot more monitoring than we think,” he said.
Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk.
“I shudder to think of all the students I’ve had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that,” he said. “Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless.”
Of course, I suppose there are some on the right who might view this chilling effect as a happy little bonus.
Well said, Goldy.
Of course the republicans are just playing politics with America’s security. They like to talk about protecting us but in the end, all they care about is retaining control of the government.
The Dems put forth a request for a 90 day extension of the Act but the GOP THINKS it can make an election issue of this. Unfortunately for them, most Americans, even repubublicans, think the PA is over-reaching. It’s about time the MSM started calling the cowardly republicans on this tactic of making everything about politics. We need to talk about this through the next election.
Isn’t it interesting that the Democrats want a super-majority before the Senate holds a vote but overturned the people asking the Legislature for a super-majority to raise taxes.
Now, help me remember how Cantwell and Murray voted back in late 2001.
3
That’s because civil liberties are more precious than a few bucks.
Hey JC Bob, why don’t you ask Low Tax Looper to run against Cantwell! He might be interested, he doesn’t have much to do with his time right now. You can write to him at:
Byron Low Tax Looper
Inmate #323358
c/o Brushy Mountain Correctional Complex
P.O. Box 1000
Petros, TN 37845
The Patriot act was a very bad piece of legislation. It just reinforced what the right wing wackos were saying the government was up to. Problem is that it was the right wing wackos that passed it.
That is the type of balance we desperately need to maintain if we are really going to protect our freedom. That is the type of balance we risk losing should we replace Sen. Cantwell and provide President Bush with another reliable Republican vote in the Senate.
Goldy whose rights weren’t respected and what privacy was invaded? This sounds like political mum bob jumbo with out any hard facts. We all know they (you know who?} are watching this web site for shady characters, because the Northwest West seems to be a magnet for Terrorist. This web site could be a honey bucket of support for these outstanding chaps. They could be hiding in abandon rabbit holes. They can get all the latest bomb building info, and access to the internet for communication in the local libraries. We have so many people around here that HATE President Bush that they would do anything to help the Terrorist. You have Jim McDermott who would go anywhere in the world to negotiate with any villains to support his own personal goals. Therefore, you can see they have their own Congressman representing them in our government.
http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/
The Terrorist have been crossing our borders north of us and probability entering our ports unobstructed. Hell Baghdad Bob could be living across the street from Maria Cantwell house and no one would know it. Maybe the New York Times should spend more time writing about events instead of being the event of the day. They make statements but nothing to back up what they are saying. We as a nation will go to great lengths to allow villains to hide from justice, but provide very few tools to apprehend them. We don’t support the victims in their time of need, but are quick to support the villain’s rights. You have to remember when justice fails then vigilantism takes over. Remember the French Revolution of 1789 and all the elitists lost their heads?
Another reason this won’t help the cowardly republicans steal office again is that several of them joined WITH Dems to stop this renewal. That will make it VERY hard to say this is a problem caused by Democrats.
More twisted history.
The wealthy and powerful aristocrats (kinda like republican robber baron CEO’s today) helped start the french revolution agitating the mobs and supplying money and arms. This got out of control rather quickly and nearly all those same nobles preceded the monarchy to the guillotine. The rest were rooted out later if they had not reached England or other european countries.
I guess the ability to read and comprehend history makes me an elitist too. :)
Cogito Ergo Liberalis
http://www.southcoasttoday.com.....9lo650.htm
Agents’ visit chills UMass Dartmouth senior
By AARON NICODEMUS, Standard-Times staff writer
NEW BEDFORD — A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung’s tome on Communism called “The Little Red Book.”
Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library’s interlibrary loan program.
The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand’s class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents’ home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said.
The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a “watch list,” and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further.
“I tell my students to go to the direct source, and so he asked for the official Peking version of the book,” Professor Pontbriand said. “Apparently, the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring inter-library loans, because that’s what triggered the visit, as I understand it.”
Although The Standard-Times knows the name of the student, he is not coming forward because he fears repercussions should his name become public. He has not spoken to The Standard-Times.
The professors had been asked to comment on a report that President Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to spy on as many as 500 people at any given time since 2002 in this country.
The eavesdropping was apparently done without warrants.
The Little Red Book, is a collection of quotations and speech excerpts from Chinese leader Mao Tse-Tung.
In the 1950s and ’60s, during the Cultural Revolution in China, it was required reading. Although there are abridged versions available, the student asked for a version translated directly from the original book.
The student told Professor Pontbriand and Dr. Williams that the Homeland Security agents told him the book was on a “watch list.” They brought the book with them, but did not leave it with the student, the professors said.
Dr. Williams said in his research, he regularly contacts people in Afghanistan, Chechnya and other Muslim hot spots, and suspects that some of his calls are monitored.
“My instinct is that there is a lot more monitoring than we think,” he said.
Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk.
“I shudder to think of all the students I’ve had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that,” he said. “Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless.”
PATRIOT act
What a fucking retarded name.
Why not call it the “Hot White Girls With Big Tits” act
or the “Everyone Loves Cute Babies” act
ps
Go see “Sarah Silverman: Jesus Is Magic” its very funny
Ken @10,
Thanks for the link. Chilling. I’ve updated the post to link to it.
Belltowner @ 11 – Why don’t we call it “Find the Raghead Motherfuckers Before They Kill Us Act”
@ 11
because we’ve been doing precious little of that
“Al-Qaeda Recruitment” act
“Surrender The Constitution” act
“Change Our Values For Nothing” act
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” act
10
The best way to defeat our enemies is to understand them, and the best way to understand them is by listening to what they say and reading what they write. Hitler laid out his whole program, including the Holocaust, in “Mein Kampf.” Too bad more people didn’t read his book or take him seriously — so that he might have been stopped when it was still possible to stop him.
The knee-jerk rightys won’t hestitate to attack the professors or the student. They figure if you’re reading subversive material, you must be a subversive. Never occurs to them we need people who understand what our enemies are thinking in order to defeat our enemies.
GOP = government of, by, and for, idiots.
There is absolutely nothing the Patriot Act accomplishes that would be hindered by having to get a search warrant. If you can’t persuade a judge to approve a search warrant, you probably have no damn business conducting the surveillance.
Another thing — if the Republicans ever want to have any credibility on these surveillance issues, they’ll have to knock off their harassment of anti-war groups and other critics.
Their actions certainly indicate the real reason they want this authority is to spy on and harass their political opponents, not catch our country’s enemies.
The UMass student’s experience is very likely the tip of the iceberg. The government has become much more sophisticated since the Vietnam War and early Cold War days with regards to domestic spying and “counter-insurgence” operations.
Of course, the wingers will call us paranoid. History proved them wrong before, and the Bush administration has thus far shown much less restraint than even the Nixon administration.
I don’t think conservatives really understand the PATRIOT act. It is the most activist restriction of our liberties since internment during WW2 (perpetrated by FDR, and whole heartedly supported by WA’s own Scoop Jackson). It is not ‘conservative’ to expand the role in government in the private lives of law abiding Americans. And I have nothing but respect for true ‘Bill Of Rights’ conservatives like former Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA) or Sen. Larry Craig, who defend the Constitution instead of shredding it.
The fact that a right wing loon like Larry Craig could weigh in against the obvious over-reach of the Patriot Act should carry some weight with sentiet conservatives. But not for “Vagina Lips” Mark the Redneck. Nosirree.
Indeed, he postulates vigilanteism as an over-arching principle or right and justice, merely exposing the typical shallowness of thought posing as “conservativism” these days.
Rabbit – The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to make war. That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of radical islam is GONE.
It bears repeating ’til it sinks in that the hard right turn this country has taken has been largely a Republican effort to suck up to corporate power and funding and to please the religious right , who are mostly old-line racists, and will loyally stick with a party that offers racism (in code ,of course) like the anti-Christmas blather we’ve been forced to endure of late. Corporate Welfare for political funding and racist code-talk for the reliable votes of the predjudiced religeous right. Crack that combination and the Republicans are dead for 100 years or forever.
Can you say tits and get it through the filter? For example, can you ask “Does Donna..don’s “life partner” like to suck on her tits?
Winston – Can you explain in some kind of coherent manner why you hate corporations? Also, please explain to me what “corporate welfare” is? Does letting corporations keep their own money count as “welfare”. Also, can you provide an example of corporate welfare?
Also, tell me what “racism” is? For example, I think you should not get a job or a contract simply because you have dark skin and/or a vagina without regard to qualifications. Is that wrong?
It won’t be long until the Bush regime shuts down web sites like this for threatening our nation’s security. Too bad. It never really hit me until this latest episode. We really have lost haven’t we? America’s gone. The country as we know it was killed on 9.11. The righties have allowed the terrorists to win. We’ve been beaten. Like other theocracies in history, we will slowly fade into obscurity. 500 years from now, we’ll just be a dot in some school kid’s book. America has been defeated by the Taliban and the republicans helped.
25
Do you think the right will invent their own version of the “fairness doctrine” to squelch free speech? I dont see it. I see it with the left but not with the right. Take another hit and relax.
RUFUS: TELL ME SOMETHING GOOD.
I think it is interesting that Bush came before congress several times to inform them that he was conducting surveillance of oversea’s communications without a warrant. Not a single dem said a word. Why the big hullabaloo now? Oh, yeah, a NYT writer has a book coming out!
That’s right, the newspaper of record held a story for the last three months to time it with the release of a book. And the news isn’t news, everyone in congress knew it was happening. If Pelosi and Reid thought that this was criminal, why didn’t they do something about it? It is much more fun to act shocked! shocked! about it.
So did Maria and Patty know all along?
Rabbit – The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to make war. That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of radical islam is GONE.
Comment by Mark The Redneck— 12/17/05 @ 6:39 pm
here’s another version…
Rabbit – The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to (have political influence). That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of (the) radical (leftist Democratic Party) is GONE.
Comment by “Vagina Lips” Mark The Redneck’s paraphraser— 12/17/05 @ 6:39 pm
Ironic, eh?
For those who are up in arms about the college professor, what is your opinion about the guys who flew the planes into buildings? Should the fact that they were taking flight lessons and had spent considerable time in the same countries have caused them to come under questioning?
I realize they were not US citizens. I’m just trying to figure out where the line should be drawn. Is there any activity that warrants bringing out the feds? From what it sounds like, the prof was questioned and released. I’m not of the crowd that says that I’m not doing anything wrong, so why should I care? The patriot act has some provisions that make me uncomfortable, and some others that are probably useless.
Ass – C’mon… don’t overrate yourself. You’re a nuisance. Not a threat. We have your side firmly under control. Adults are in charge. It’s OK…
@28: I think…
There you go again, janet, dipping your toe in the water. Bring your water wings?
…it is interesting that Bush came before congress several times to inform them that he was conducting surveillance of oversea’s communications without a warrant.
Oh, please. This is (a.) a lie; and (b.) not germaine. We are talking about warrantless intrusions on US citizens, janet. You are grasping at straws. “Oversea’s (sic) communications”, what a crock.
Should the fact that they were taking flight lessons and had spent considerable time in the same countries have caused them to come under questioning?
In the absence of any other corroberating evidence, no.
Furthermore, the FISA Court practically never turns down a warrant request. What is so hard about asking for one? As regards the 9/11 nineteen–it shows the ineptness of the Bush administration. As for U.S. citizens–the refusal to obtain a warrant is flatly against the law.
You are aware of what “against the law” means, do you not, janet? And the consequences of breaking the law are what, janet? Where do YOU draw the line?
Of course we should have stopped the guys who flew planes into buildings if possible.
Some in the FBI raised warnings and the CLinton Administration told Bush of the Bin Laden risk. This administration had higher priorities until pushes. Why weren’t those warnings followed up on?
MTR – “The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to make war. That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of radical islam is GONE.”
This is why Republicans – or at least these Republicans – can not win the war on terror. It is not as if there is an army of 10,000 terrorists whom we are fighting and if we kill 2,000 then that leaves 8,000. If you kill 2,000 you are simply creating more recruits for the enemy. A military ‘solution’ is not only unlikely to solve the problem, it will actively make it worse.
The idea of ‘kill’em all’ completely misunderstands the problem. We are fighting an ideology that believes it is defending itself from Western military, economic and cultural attacks. They propose a narrative that says Western forces are trying to destroy what is right and good about Islam through economic colonialism, military occupation of Islamic countries, and the spread of Western liberal ideas.
Winning is actually a pretty simple concept. We need to live up to our values and our ideals. Justifying torture simply shows that we really do not mean what we say when we speak of human rights. Military occupation of Islamic cultural and religious centers simply creates a nice recruiting tool for the terrorists. And pursuing exploitative economic policies which create a few wealthy elite while leaving the vast majority in poverty simply drives more desperate people into the arms of the terrorists.
I believe in military action where and when it is needed. We just have to realize that the longer they are there, the negatives outweigh the good of whatever terrorists we might have occasion to kill.
Democrats understand this and that is why we can win and this Republican party is destined to lose.
So, K, what would you have done to the guys in the planes? If they were detained and questioned, the same uproar that is happening here with the prof would happen. If planes were grounded, the left would have gone crazy.
The right might go too far on the infringement thing, but it seems that the left has no real answer. You all want to preemptively catch the guys once you know they have committed acts of terror. You can’t have it both ways. Either you act before the terror is committed, and risk a violating civil liberties, or you resign yourself to playing clean up.
This is a legitimate viewpoint, but not the one that dems want to take. I’m tired of hearing that Bush should have done something. Like what? Nothing is allowed in your happy little world.
Nindid – Your reasoning is why you guys will lose. You don’t defeat an enemy like this by trying to reason with them. How the fuck do you reason with suicidal maniacs? You don’t. Didn’t Neville Chamberlin suggest this?
There are 6 billion people in the world. 2 billion of them are muslim. That means that all the rest of need to pair up and kill one of them. When we all do that, the problem will be solved. And it really is like a cancer… you hafta get every trace of it… every cell, or it will come out of remission with a vengeance. This also solves the global population problem you guys are so worried about, so we kill two birds with one stone.
Don’t tell me what I would have done. Good police work would have kept them on the ground. ANd If they don’t commit a crime, you have no basis for holding them. If they are here without proper visas arrest or export them.
How is spying on Quaker meetings advancing our security? The right is so drunk with power, it will sink itself. Yes there is over reaction on the left.
The cruel irony here is that Bush’s initial strategy in Afganistan was brilliant. There, I said it. Using the Northern Alliance to bring down the Taliban and take away Bin Laden’s training camps had global support. WHy then Iraq? If anything, the ites to terrorism, both in personnel and funding was much stronger to Saudi Arabia. Is there any rational explanation for leaving the real work undone while pursuing a persoanl grudge?
22
“Rabbit – The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to make war. That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of radical islam is GONE.”
Here’s a gun. The enemy is over there. Charge.
(Don’t you just love these fucking frontal assault idiots?)
Mark, I think you don’t know squat shit about war-fighting.
23
Like rats, Republicans breed, and you can never get rid of them for good.
28
“I think it is interesting that Bush came before congress several times to inform them that he was conducting surveillance of oversea’s communications without a warrant. Not a single dem said a word. Why the big hullabaloo now?”
Because we just found out he’s conducting surveillance of Americans on U.S. soil without a warrant, idiot!
Janet S. = apologist for Bush KGB
Does anyone know if Bush stole any FBI files? And if so where are they now? In Hillary’s closet?
29
“Rabbit – The best way to defeat our enemies is to destroy their ability to (have political influence). That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of (the) radical (leftist Democratic Party) is GONE. … Comment by Proud to be an Ass— 12/17/05 @ 7:39 pm”
Looks like ASS has joined Coulter in calling for the extermination of Democrats. Hey ASS you Nazi fuck, why don’t you and your girlfriend (“Adam’s Apple” Coulter) come to my burrow and try to arrest me for being a Democrat, so I can exercise the right of lawful self-defense? har har har har har
ProudASS now wants to kill Democrats.
He must have a burning desire to become Low Tax Looper’s cell mate. I’m sure he’ll give Looper good bj’s, because Low Tax will strangle him or gouge his eyes out with a pencil if he doesn’t.
Terror is a tactic. You cannot make war on a tactic. It makes as much sense as having a war on night raids. You can’t eliinate either by making war on them.
You can, however, make and use more armaments enriching ever ore the already rich while you use up the product that helps no one but the ars dealers.
Remember the much dreamed of “peace dividend” we all expected to benefit from after the fall of communism? Where did it go? I think you all know. Our “system” is to keep manufacturing and using armaments on a phantom enemy and keep the rest of us poor and struggling. “War on Terror”?? The “adults are in charge”? MTR: You should be put in a public mental institution except Ronald Reagan closed them all and turned the crazies loose on the streets. That’s why we have such a problem with the homeless, MTR, because of that “amiable moron”, Ronald Reagan.
Think, MTR, if that’s possible. What would be the last frontier of “privatization” after public schools and libraries?
Families. Just think how much better the “private sector” (large corporations) could raise your child? Much better than you. We need to run childrearing like a business, doncha’ know.
@35, MTR
Not all muslims are fanatical and want to kill everyone. The Quran does NOT direct the anihilation of everyone but Muslims.
Yes, there are fanatics but other religions have them too. There are a lot of ways to attain peace and direct force (war) is the last resort. There are times to use diplomacy and times to make war.
34
“I’m tired of hearing that Bush should have done something. Like what?”
Like showing up for work, for starters. He was on vacation over 40% of his first 8 months in office.
35
Who says we want to reason with these guys? The idea is to figure out their MO so you can find them. Are you gonna kill 2 billion muslims to get at 10,000 terrorists?
@37
Roger,
You shouldn’t tell him that, his tires probably are not balanced correctly. Next thing you know the police will be knocking on your burrow and arresting you for accessory to murder…….
MTR = promoter of genocide
@16
The military does that very well. But you knew that didn’t you.
49
Yeah, you’re right.
MTR – disregard #37 above. You can fight this one from your armchair – like you did the last one.
Winston 45 – Wow. You’re an actual example of Limbaugh’s truth that says “To be a liberal you have to believe that freedom comes from government and oppression comes from corporations.”
I thought he was just firing for effect. Geez, he’s right…
Janet S @ 28: “Bush came before congress several times to inform them that he was conducting surveillance of oversea’s communications without a warrant” An interesting assertion. Your source?
Bush has made no such claim, and neither has any congressional leader (of either party).
Former Senate intel chair Bob Graham recalla tech briefings that contained “no discussion about expanding [NSA eavesdropping] to include conversations of U.S. citizens or conversations that originated or ended in the United States” — and no mention of the president’s intent to bypass the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. (Wash Post)
Roger – way to not answer a question. What would you have done if you were in charge? Not take a vacation! If that’s what passes for a plan, the dems will never get back in control.
You miss my point – Bush told the members of Congress what he was doing, and no one, NO ONE, spoke up. The law is clear – you can conduct surveillance on non-citizens without a warrant. The dems knew that what he was doing was legal, otherwise they would have called a press conference two years ago to protest!
I still don’t hear a plan. Let the police take care of it? And do what? Detain someone – and deprive innocent immigrants of their civil rights? Ground all planes? What?
By the way, no one has heard from Osama in a long time. Doesn’t seem to me that he is a threat. If we had pursued him and killed him, he would have been a martyr. Now he is just irrelevant.
Are you gonna kill 2 billion muslims to get at 10,000 terrorists?
Uh yeah according to many wingnuts… They’re the ones who think Dubya’s too liberal…
By the way, no one has heard from Osama in a long time.
And no one had heard from him in a long time on September 10, 2001.
MTR: Did you hear about the new Rush Limbaugh Game?
Neither has Rush!
MTR: I forgot to wish you, HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!( no offense intended)
RR – reading comprehension read PTAAs comment again kthx.
janet s. –
After receiving information specifying terrorist threats and the possibility of hijackings, I would
1.) Implement temporary security measures to protect against hijackings. Not being a security specialist, you would have to ask someone else what these would be. After decares of dealing with hijackings, I am sure there are such procedures. I would guess it would be like paying air marshals overtime and distributing warnings to airlines, airports, and air crews.
2.) Conduct ‘shaking the trees’ meetings in order to share information between intelligence agencies. This is essential considering the number of intelligence organizations and their varied responsibilities. Similar steps were taken regarding the Millenium Plot.
By the way, no one has heard from Osama in a long time. Doesn’t seem to me that he is a threat. If we had pursued him and killed him, he would have been a martyr. Now he is just irrelevant.
You’re joking, right? Just let a man who helped orchestrate mass murder go? There is no statute of limitations on murder. And who says we had to kill him? Us leftists would give him a trial and then drop him in a cell for the rest of his life. It’s hard to martyr someone in a jail cell.
I should add.
The “War on Terror” is fundamentally a moral conflict. There is no evil empire, no matter how much the Cold Warriors might wish it to be so. Compromising our morals only leads to more death and inspires others to take up arms against us.
And no one had heard from him in a long time on September 10, 2001.
Comment by For the Clueless— 12/17/05 @ 9:38 pm
Just because the liberal MSM was not talking about him when a donk was in office doesnt mean he wasn’t there. Geesh.
59
How do you support liberal raio?
Just contribute to a childrens charity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Just because the liberal MSM was not talking about him when a donk was in office doesnt mean he wasn’t there. Geesh.
Jesus fuck you’re clueless. Remember all the ‘Wag the Dog’ comments? What do you think it was about?
Gee, Goldy — maybe the “monitoring” is being done on the FOREIGN end of the conversation, and not on the U.S. end:
“Dr. Williams said in his research, he regularly contacts people in Afghanistan, Chechnya and other Muslim hot spots, and suspects that some of his calls are monitored.”
For example, Chechnya just happens to be in Russia … Pakistan, Iran and other countries with “Muslim hot spots” also happen to have their own intelligence services.
If Dr. Williams notices something sounding funny in the telephone call that appears to be “monitoring”, odds are this is being done on the FOREIGN end. If it was being done by U.S. intelligence services, our technology is so good that no one can tell that any “monitoring” is being done :)
FISA, the The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 prescribes procedures for requesting judicial authorization for electronic surveillance and physical search of persons engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States on behalf of a foreign power.
Now reference the following PDF Link from Cornel University of law. On page 5 and 6, you will see opinions by the Supremes in the ‘Katz’ case and ‘Keith’ case. Any intelligence gathering that involves domestic surveillance requires a Judicial Approval to satisfy the fourth Amendment. And the Court went even further:
“Forth Amendment protections become even more necessary when the targets of official surveillance may be suspected of unorthodoxy in their political beliefs.”
Janet S @ 56
Please also note on page 14 that the definition of a United States Person in TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 36 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 1801 >PAR (I) includes legal aliens.
Congress created FISA in 1978 as a result of these decisions. And unless the Attorney General can offer concrete evidence of an emergency, any agent of the Federal Government who wants to spy on a US resident needs a warrant from the FISA court, even the President. He probably broke the law.
On the other hand, the law is defined by the Supremes, and we know which direction they are leaning to. Bet you a months pay that if Johnny the Robber and his merry men ever receive any indictments of the President based on his breaking the FISA, they will rule in Bushes favor.
“Have ya ever noticed the correlation between the presence of a Mark The Redneck and stoopidty?”
“Remember the Revolution of 2006 and all the Neo-Cons lost their heads?”
“That means killing every fucking one of them until the cancer of radical Neo-Conservatism is GONE.”
Bumber Stickers will be issued!
Richard “The Dope” Pope wrote
Or until the NIf Dr. Williams notices something sounding funny in the telephone call that appears to be “monitoring”, odds are this is being done on the FOREIGN end. If it was being done by U.S. intelligence services, our technology is so good that no one can tell that any “monitoring†is being done
Or until the President In Name Only admits it on television. Which in case you haven’t noticed, Richard, the soon to be imprisoned Bush has admitted it, you fucking moron!
MonkeyFace McPretzleChocker has removed all doubt that the Bush administration is an illegal Crime Family and needs to be brought to criminal justice immediately.
Those would would sacrifice liberty for safety, deserve neither.
Live Free or Die.
54
If it wasn’t for government, plenty of corporations wouldn’t hesitate to sell you pills that would kill you.
56
Roger Rabbit’s terrorism plan, dearie, is to hunt them down and kill them. But it takes work, dearie. Just ask Sergeant Mac. You don’t win wars sitting on your fat ass at the ranch back in Texas.
62
Clinton tried to cram a couple cruise missiles up Osama’s ass, but didn’t get him. The guy’s slippery. What else is new?
65
I think you’ve got a point, Richard.
However, Richard, that is NOT what the flap is about. Bush authorized warrantless surveillance on U.S. soil. That’s illegal, and you know it.
66
Yeah.
Roger Rabbit has posted 100% of the last 5 comments on this thread. Any troll who doesn’t like it can go fuck himself.
Roger Rabbit has posted 80% of the last 10 comments on this thread. Any troll who doesn’t like it should get himself a hot date with a horny armadillo.
Roger Rabbit,
You are talking to fools with almost no capacity for formulating a coherent thought on their own. I applaud you for your patience in dealing with the wingmuts.
Your pal,
Dug
SOURCES: ROVE LIKELY TO BE INDICTED
“Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald met with the second grand jury investigating the leak of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson for several hours Friday … Fitzgerald is expected to ask the grand jury to indict Rove … for making false statements to the FBI and Justice Department investigators in October 2003, lawyers close to the case say.
” … Fitzgerald has been struggling with … whether to believe Rove hid or destroyed evidence that would have incriminated him … lawyers close to the case said.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/121705X.shtml
WHY THE NEW YORK TIMES WENT PUBLIC
From the Washington Post:
“At the Times, a Scoop Deferred
“By Paul Farhi
“Washington Post Staff Writer
“Saturday, December 17, 2005
” … In a statement yesterday, Times Executive Editor Bill Keller … wrote that when the Times became aware that the NSA was conducting domestic wiretaps without warrants, ‘the Administration argued strongly that writing about this eavesdropping program would give terrorists clues about the vulnerability of their communications and would deprive the government of an effective tool for the protection of the country’s security. Officials also assured senior editors of the Times that a variety of legal checks had been imposed that satisfied everyone involved that the program raised no legal questions ….’
“In the ensuing months, Keller wrote, two things changed the paper’s thinking. The paper developed a fuller picture of misgivings about the program by some in the government. And the paper satisfied itself through more reporting that it could write the story without exposing ‘any intelligence-gathering methods or capabilities that are not already on the public record.’
“Tom Rosenstiel, executive director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, said it was conceivable the Times waited to publish its NSA story as the Senate took up renewal of the Patriot Act. ‘It’s not unheard of to wait for a news peg,’ he said. ‘It’s not unusual to discover the existence of something and not know the context of it until later.'”
Pope @ 65 — Good speculation … except for the unfortunate disclosure that the NSA intercepts in question were taken at US switchpoints.
@70
Roger,
They also sell pills that twist and deform little babies. I do believe that the FDA has become worthless. I also believe that all of the lawsuits against Big Corporations are a crime against the rest of the citizens in the US.
The New York Times gave up their credibility as one of the world’s most stellar news organization some years ago. In the last few years, they have been nothing more than a news clearing house and propaganda machine for their various reporters. This story was printed to take down the Patriot Act and to sell books for the story writer. There was a time when the major news organizations in America were highly respected.
Newspapers all around the US are losing readers and subscriptions are dropping like hot rocks.
wrabbit @ 43: Chill. I’m on your side. How many righties call M-T-R “vagina lips”?
Goldy: What happened to my replies to janet s.? They get “disappeared” in the storm last night?
More and more average everyday citizens are finding blogs, who needs the MSM anymore, we have each other!
25
Do you think the right will invent their own version of the “fairness doctrine” to squelch free speech? I dont see it. I see it with the left but not with the right. Take another hit and relax.
Comment by RUFUS— 12/17/05 @ 7:02 pm
RUFUS they did it is called Political Correctness Not. Webster’s “Politically correct holding orthodox liberal political views: usually used disparagingly to connote dogmatism, etc.-political correctness.” This hogwash is what provokes the Terrorist to attack this country on 911. This is their greatest threat (PC) to the Moslem Religion. Hel it is the greatest threat to any Religion today, that is why this country went Red in 2004. Free Speech was squelched when the minority groups started crying about all their shorting and confronting about it became a sin. Now comes the adjustment; when a clock pendulum swings, it moves to each side equality until it loses momentum. That same analogy can apply in politics today.
Fucking Right Wing Fascist BushCo Apologists on this blog need to be rounded up and incarcerated for TREASON! And what the fuck is wrong with Congress?!! We need them to IMPEACH this paper hanging son of a bitch RIGHT NOW! And we need to send him to Iraq to be tried alongside Saddam! This son of a bitch makes me sick! He broke the law. He did not run these “taps” through the FISA court. He MUST go to jail. Now! Senators, get off your asses and get busy!
86
Hogwash! If corporations want to be sued less, they stop selling dangerous products, quit lying to shareholders, and cease screwing their retirees. We need more trial lawyers, not fewer.
88
Oh, sorry — case of mistaken identity.
I confused you with the ASS.
@92
Roger, grab a carrot and relax! I agree with everything in your post, however; as an example, that dude in Texas who took Vioxx and got a jury award of over 200 million or was it 300 hundred million certainly had other health issues and that man would not have made 200 million dollars in the time he had left. If the jury finds fault what’s wrong with a “reasonable” amount. There are hundreds or thousands more lawsuits on the way just for Vioxx. You and I are going to pay for those billions, because they are just going to pass those costs onto the next drug that they sell. There arn’t any perfect drugs, they all cause some sort of side effects. The FDA is approving too many drugs – too fast.
I despise Big Pharma and their prices. What I hate is that every other country in the world pays 1/3 or less for the very same drugs that they sell to us here in America. I know America is big, but why should American citizens pay for all of the research and development of drugs for the whole world?
sgmmac @ 88 “I also believe that all of the lawsuits against Big Corporations are a crime against the rest of the citizens in the US.”
If not for LARGE lawsuit wins against corporatew malfeseance, all of us in the US will soon be dead from corporate malfeseance.
sgmmac “This story was printed to take down the Patriot Act and to sell books for the story writer. There was a time when the major news organizations in America were highly respected.”
And the fact that the story is COMPLETELY TRUE does not give you pause, sgmmac. The fact that the President IN Name Only has admitted he has illegally ordered spying on US citizens does not bother you?
You are as wingnut as any other TROLL now.
Democrats are traitors. They want the terrorists to win because they think it will get them elected.
66
How do you support liberal raio?
Just contribute to a childrens charity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Comment by RUFUS— 12/17/05 @ 10:15 pm
66
Yeah.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/18/05 @ 1:21 am
This is more proof that when the left says they “care about the children” it is a bunch of crap. No wonder you donks turn a blind eye to child abusers in our public schools.
Let’s clarify a few things.
Donna,
When the drug company that makes Vioxx is done paying billions upon billions to various individuals you won’t be to buy one pill for under 20 bucks from that company, then they screw all of their employees out of their health care and retirement to stay out of bankruptcy. There IS an inherent risk in taking drugs, any type of drugs. Why is the FDA approving these drugs in the first place?
My daughter is 26 years old, her Doctor put her on the “patch,” and then the “ring.” Now, studies are showing that girls in their early 20’s are dying from these two types of birth control. It seems that the patch and the ring both send astronomical amounts of hormones into you all at once and with bad results. She came up with a huge cyst last year, it was benign, but I have read on the Internet that large amounts of hormones can cause the cysts. We raise hell with the FDA to approve drugs now and then several years later we find out those drugs aren’t perfect and we sue their butts off.
Donna,
Yes, I am concerned about the NSA spying, from what I have read it wasn’t illegal. If it proves to be illegal, I would expect action to be taken.
Just contribute to a childrens charity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
While it is always a good thing to contribute to childrenb’s charity, it will in no way support liberal “raio”
Tell that to Air America
No wonder you donks turn a blind eye to child abusers in our public schools.
That is a ludicrous lie.
I dont see the reaction from you donks to a recent rash of Articles about Public school teachers getting away with abusing children. If the WEA was the catholic church they would be getting crucified right now. So anyone who denys this is full of shit. End of story.
RUFUS, you pinheaded numbskull, if you have accusations of public school teachers getting away with abusing children, cite tham, wait, and then criticise the lack of reaction from “donks.
Until then, shut your ignorant piehole, you fucking moron.
And your accusations about Air America have been thouroghly discussed, debunked, and the only people mumbling about it are the people who lover the fact that the Bush administration has outed CIA operatives, illegally spied on US citizens, and lied the US into a disasterous war in Iraq.
And also, smallminded numbskulls posting as “RUFUS”.
sgmmac, if you feel the FDA is underpressure by pharmacutical Giants to wrongfully approve dangerous drugs, why do you think they also want to limit lawsuits?
Because they don’t give a flying fuck about anything but maing profit, no matter how many people will die! And if we can’t sue their asses for EXTREME amounts of monew, they will never have a reason to stop!
And sgmmac, if you are concerned that appropriate action will not be taken for the illegal spying on US citizens, then take it up with the REPUBLICAN Congress.
RUFUS, you pinheaded numbskull, if you have accusations of public school teachers getting away with abusing children, cite tham, wait, and then criticise the lack of reaction from “donks.
Donna- You ignorant fuck. Don’t you read the Seattle Times? The Seattle Times already cited the stories. The fact that you don’t recall those stories futrher proves my point.
The fact that you donks haven’t called for the dismantling of the WEA proves that you are HYPOCRITS.
We need the Bush adminstration to spy of the WEA.
Donna,
I understand your point, but it is a vicious spiral that someone has to break if Americans are ever going to have affordable and decent health care. It is getting worse every day. Shareholders demand profit from the companies they invest in, the unions demand “living wages”, people demand perfect drugs, Big Pharma sinks billions into R & D, their prices soar to maintain profit margins, they lose lawsuits – they raise prices.
5 years from now, who will be able to afford health care? Millionaires!
When Bill Clinton first took office, America had lots of vaccine manufacturers, they are almost all gone to distant shores. President Bush did NOT start Outsourcing, it was done by our Federal government (Congress) giving tax breaks to Big Corporations long before Bush took office.
sgmmac “Big Pharma sinks billions into R & D, their prices soar to maintain profit margins, they lose lawsuits – they raise prices.”
BULLSHIT! R&D is one of the smallest expendages of Big Pharma! Most R&D is done with Tax Payer Dollars at Universities! The biggest epengage by far for Big Pharma is LOBBYING! They have more lobbyists in Wash D.C. than there are Congress People!
Additionally, costs for malparactice insurance have not gone up due to lawsuits, but duew to unregulated greed from the Insuarance companies.
If ytou want an answer to spiraling healthcare costs that both Big Business (Non-Pharma or Insurance), small business and the American People will embrace it is Universal Healthcare.
The rest of your arguments come right out of the bulshit Neo-Con talking point memo’s and We Are Not Buying That Crap Any More!
RUFUS @ 107
No I don’t read the Seattle Times. And the facty that you can’t cite any of these stories proves you are not only an ignorant FUCK, but a Lying Ignorant FUCK!
What Bush should have done on September 12, 2001 was to put a medium-sized nuke about where we thought Osama and the boys were hanging out. That would have calmed-down the religous zealots.
Dear Department of Homeland Security,
I would like to register my copy of Marx’s Das Kapital. It’s been sitting in my study gathering dust for years, and I didn’t like it that much when I did read it, but if you want to visit people for checking out the Little Red Book, I thought you’d like to track down other evildoers like this jaded old former soc-yi-al-ist.
p.s. I also have a genuine made-in-China Mao Zedong hat. It was a gift from my baby-eating Communist girlfriend. I no longer wear it because Chinese friends teased me about “wearing a green hat”
Anyone remembering Project Echelon yet? This is so not new….
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/sp.....6.html?ht=
Sven @ 117:
The NSA has been responsible for monitoring electronic communications since 1947. This, along with promoting information security standards are the primary jobs assigned to this agency.
(I’ll note that I have a shelf of genuine NSA-issued security manuals in my study, right next to the copy of Das Kapital. Yes, I like keeping a funky, eclectic library).
There has always been an understanding that the NSA can not use their monitoring abilities inside the United States. Allegedly, when information is garnered between a foreigner and a US national, only one side of the conversation is passed on.
An executive order allowing the NSA to turn their monitoring capabilities inward is a pretty major policy change.
Donna,
Who is going to PAY for your universal health care? I haven’t read any solutions or ideas from you. How are you going to fix it?
Holy Christ sgmmac!!!
WHere does the money for healthcare come from now? Hmmmm…? Does a “Health Insurance fairy” deliver it to us? Hmmm….?
Let me give you a clue… who pays for health insurance now? Companies, the governament and indivivuals.
Where does it go? To insurance companies and healthcare providers.
WHere can we make an easy cut and make it less expensive? Get rid of the fucking insurancew companies and you’ve just saved a bundle.
Now who pays for the Helathcare? Businesses and individuals through taxes. But no insurance man skimming off the top.
Money saved for induviduals and businesses. Businesses can now hire more people who can now pay more taxes with increased wage base. And with no insurance skimming more money saved.
Problem solved. I works in EVERY OTHER FUCKING CIVILIZED INDUSTRIAL NATION!
Now if you wanna quit playing stupid, we can have a discussion.
And as it stands now, we tax payers are supporting corporate welfare for companies like Wal Mart who do not provide insurance for the majority of their workers, and end up using “free” clinics, emergency rooms. With no insurance their health becomes comprimised resulting in larger bills supported by US! And Wal Mart walks away like the bandits they are.
because of course only ignorant poor people work at Wal-Mart…I wonder who you blamed in the land before Wal-Mart?
What about the other billion retail stores and resturants who dont provide coverage? What about places that do for full time, and keep as many people part time as they can?
On the other hand Wal-Mart provides goods at a low price for anyone low income.
I have a hard time making them the villian. When I moved here in 1995 when I left the Air Force, I had no job, no house and no insurance. I lived on my savings, till I got working.
I didn’t like my circumstances, so I changed them.
If you want to fix it for everyone else, have fun with that.
118
60 minutes uncovered the Clintons using it domestically too, against drug lords and politicians.
Read it, if you really care about what your government has been doing….since the 80’s. Then we can condemn all of them, including Carter, whose watch this may have started on, and Clinton.
http://cryptome.org/echelon-60min.htm
Ms. NEWSHAM: I walked into the office building and a friend said, ‘Come over here and listen to–to this thing.’ And–and he had headphones on, so I took the headphones and I listened to it, and–and I looked at him and I’m going, ‘That’s an American.’ And he said, ‘Well, yeah.’
KROFT: And it was definitely an American voice?
Ms. NEWSHAM: It was definitely an American voice, and it was a voice that was distinct. And I said, ‘Well, who is that?’ And he said it was Senator Strom Thurmond. And I go, ‘What?’
KROFT: Do you think this kind of stuff goes on?
Mr. FROST: Oh, of course it goes on. Been going on for years. Of course it goes on.
KROFT: You mean the National Security Agency spying on politicians in…
Mr. FROST: Well, I–I…
KROFT: …in the United States?
Mr. FROST: Sounds ludicrous, doesn’t it? Sounds like the world of fiction. It’s not; not the world of fiction. That’s the way it works. I’ve been there. I was trained by you guys.
Rep. GOSS: Certainly possible that something like that could happen. The question is: What happened next?
KROFT: What do you mean?
Rep. GOSS: It is certainly possible that somebody overheard me in a conversation. I have just been in Europe. I have been talking to people on a telephone and elsewhere. So it’s very possible somebody could have heard me. But the question is: What do they do about it? I mean, I cannot stop the dust in the ether; it’s there. But what I can make sure is that it’s not abused–the capability’s not abused, and that’s what we do.
KROFT: Much of what’s known about the Echelon program comes not from enemies of the United States, but from its friends. Last year, the European Parliament, which meets here in Strasbourg, France, issued a report listing many of the Echelon’s spy stations around the world and detailing their surveillance capabilities. The report says Echelon is not just being used to track spies and terrorists. It claims the United States is using it for corporate and industrial espionage as well, gathering sensitive information on European corporations, then turning it over to American competitors so they can gain an economic advantage.
Donna,
I was thinking that you thought there was a magical fairy out there somewhere. You want it paid for with taxes? So, you are really saying you want the feds or the state to pay for health care? They really don’t do those things very well, neither level. It would probably also put all small businesses right out of business.
I would like to see some regulation of health care, some torte reform, regulation of drug companies, and the tax loopholes that allow American companies to hold billions ‘off-shore’ closed. The easy way to get rid of companies like Wal-Mart is for State legislators to raise the state’s minimum wage and require all employers of over 50 people to provide health care coverage.
There was a time that all States ran utilities like power, they deregulated it and voila, then we get Enron. The post where I told you about vaccine companies is a good example of subsidies that benefited all of America. The Feds took away the subsidies, most of the companies making our vaccines left for Europe. I would have to research it, but I think we are the only country that allows multi-million dollar lawsuits. Can injured people in Canada, England and Germany sue for damages? All three of those countries have universal health care.