One thing that’s pretty clear about WA’s 2006 US Senate campaign, is that whoever the Republican’s dig up to oppose Maria Cantwell, the challenger is almost certain to get the Seattle Times’ endorsement.
Why? Because Times’ publisher Frank Blethen is not only mortal, he’s also a mortal enemy of the death estate tax… and Sen. Cantwell opposes Republican efforts to eliminate the federal estate tax entirely. That’s why, according to the the NY Times, the GOP and its surrogates are already spending money targeting Sen. Cantwell on this issue:
Advocates of repeal have begun showing commercials criticizing senators who oppose repeal, like Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington. Many of the criticisms focus on a supposed threat to family farms.
Which is, of course, incredibly dishonest, considering that a Congressional Budget Office report released last week shows that only 300 farms nationwide were subject to the federal estate tax last year, and of these, all but 27 farmers had left enough liquid assets to pay the taxes owed… although the report “hinted that the actual number might be zero.”
And it gets even better for farm heirs.
Next year, when the threshold rises to $2 million per person, just 123 farms will be subject to the estate tax, the study found. And in 2009, when it rises to $3.5 million, only 65 of the nation’s 2.2 million farms will be affected, the study said.
The federal estate tax raised $23.4 billion last year, and repeal would shift burden off the fortunes left by the richest 1 percent of Americans, to the rest of us, either through higher taxes, reduced services, or more borrowing (thus burdening future generations.) Repealing the estate tax would only benefit the super-rich… and to claim that such a move is intended to help family farmers is an out and out lie.
Neil E. Harl, an economics professor at Iowa State University whose expertise in estate tax planning for farmers has made him a household name in the grain belt, said many Americans had a false impression that the estate tax was destroying family farming.
He said the Congressional study “adds to the weight of the evidence that this is a myth that has been well spun.”
“Farms, in particular,” Mr. Harl said, “are not in jeopardy because of estate taxes.”
Michael J. Graetz, a professor at Yale Law School who was a tax policy official in the administration of President George Bush, said repeal was primarily a benefit to people with large estates held in stocks and other securities, not to farmers.
You can argue if you want about the wisdom of giving tax breaks to the very wealthy while our nation suffers from record budget deficits, but math is math.
President Bush and others have repeatedly asserted that the estate tax is destroying family farms, yet have failed to cite a single case of a farm being lost to estate taxes… “although in June 2001 Mr. Bush said he had talked to such farmers.” Yeah… but then, Bush is a liar.
Sen. Cantwell deserves our support for courageously opposing the lie, knowing it will cost her the support of the most powerful newspaper in the state.
UPDATE:
It has been suggested to me by a journalist I respect, that perhaps I have been a touch unfair. The Times did print an editorial stating they “can live with” a federal estate tax with a top rate of 15%, and they have in the past endorsed other candidates who oppose repeal. So I just want to set the record straight.
So Goldy–
How many times do you propose taxing the same income?
Corporate Taxes.
Individual Taxes on Dividends.
Capital Gains Tax.
Death Tax.
How about an annual assessment on families after the death of those who have created wealth until it is gone???
LEFTIST PINHEADS are the Robin Hoods of our generation….except they don’t want anyone touching THEIR wealth.
The LEFTIST PINHEAD exemption, right Goldy??
How do your wealthy heroes like Michael Moore, Susan Sarandin and Barbara Streisand feel about this issue??? Ask them.
Cantwell doesn’t care because she lost most of her wealth due to her personal GREED when the dot-com bubble burst.
How you look at this all seems to depend where are are in life. Redistribution of wealth looks pretty to those who hate to work and want to be dependent on the “generosity” of LEFTIST PINHEADS who will gladly gorge themselves on others hard-earned money and buy power with it.
C’mon Goldy — AWOL might not be an out-and-out liar. Lying requires active intent to deceive, a la Cheney & Scott McClellan (or that master prevaricator, Ari “Watch What You Say” Fleischer). Evidence suggests that AWOL just has no regard whatsoever for what the facts are.
Cynical @1,
Blah, blah, blah.
If that argument was good enough to convince the American people, then they wouldn’t have to sell repeal by lying about how it impacts farmers.
Goldy–
Answer my question.
How many times should we tax the same income?
blah, blah, blah is not the answer by the way.
How many times should we tax the same income?
Cynical… from the NY Times piece:
Without an estate tax, capital gains would not be taxed at death.
Answer me this… why is it that you think it is a good thing to structure our tax laws so as to create a permanent, monied aristocracy?
Because it’s those people who have wealth that we need to invest to create further wealth. The pie is NOT finite as the LEFTIST PINHEADS seem to think. The wealth pie can grow so more & more can participate. Look at current levels of home-ownership. It’s staggering and a good thing.
Your counterpoint seems to be that people and families ought to work, save and invest….but when they die, all the chips go back in the pot. That’s not realistic Goldy.
I ask you once again…how many times should we tax the same income?
Also Goldy–
You keep quoting the NY Times. Where did the NY Times get this information? You aren’t so simple as to believe everything the NY Times prints…I know you aren’t.
Tax Laws should force heirs to inherit assets at the same cost basis however as that of the person who bequeathed it. No argument there. Perhaps that is a much better approach. Think about it.
Cynical,
As many times as to get the desired effect.
You tax something to get less of it – in the case of the estate tax, extreme concentrations of wealth which can be dangerous to both the health of democracy and even to the economy.
Thoughtful, wealthy people like Warren Buffet and the Gates family have no problems with the estate tax.
Hey cynical, those are 4 different revenue streams and are not retaxing the same income over and over.
That is sorta like saying I shouldnt have to pay taxes both when I earn income and when I buy something with it.
Lets see, you said
Corporate Taxes.
Individual Taxes on Dividends.
Capital Gains Tax.
Death Tax.
Corporate taxes are taxes paid on the income a corporation makes.
Taxes on dividents are taxes paid by shareholders on money earned. That is not twice because, and pay attention here because its where your arguement falls apart its a tax on a different person. Taxes are paid when money changes hands. The shareholders are not the same thing as a corporation they own.
Capitol gains taxes have nothing at all to do with the dividens or corporate income; they are gains in stock prices and so are a completely different income source.
Finally death taxes. Once again, this is a tax paid by a different individual entirely.
I am not sure how you are getting that this money is taxed multiple times.
Sorry, let me rephrase, thats like saying if I pay tax on income I earn, the store I shop at shouldnt have to pay tax on it when I spend it.
Mr Cynical-
“Where did the NY Times get this information?”
Often times they make it up.
* Accounts Receivable Tax,
* Building Permit Tax,
* Capital Gains Tax,
* CDL license Tax,
* Cigarette Tax,
* Corporate Income Tax,
* Court Fines (indirect taxes),
* Dog License Tax,
* Entertainment Tax,
* Federal Income Tax,
* Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA),
* Fishing License Tax,
* Food License Tax,
* Fuel permit tax,
* Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon),
* Hotel/Motel Tax,
* Hunting License Tax,
* Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money),
* Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (! tax on top of tax)
* IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
* Liquor Tax
* Local Income Tax
* Luxury Taxes
* Marriage License Tax
* Medicare Tax
* Property Tax
* Real Estate Tax
* Septic Permit Tax
* Service Charge Taxes
* School Tax
* Social Security Tax
* Sales Taxes
* State Income Tax
* State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
* Recreational Vehicle Tax
* Road Toll Booth Taxes
* Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
* Telephone federal excise tax
* Telephone federal universal service fee tax
* Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
* Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
* Telephone recurring and nonrecurring charges tax
* Telephone State and local tax
* Telephone usage charge tax
* Toll Bridge Taxes
* Toll Tunnel Taxes
* Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
* Trailer registration tax
* Utility Taxes
* Vehicle License Registration Tax
* Vehicle Sales Tax
* Watercraft registration Tax
* Well Permit Tax
* Workers Compensation Tax
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise her kids. What happened?
Oh, don’t even get me started on ‘what happened’ baynative. The largest issue is technology.
Look, 100 years ago, if you wanted a house, you went somewhere noone else had built a house, called it your homestead and built a house out of what you found there. Can you do that now? Yeah, part of that is regulation, but part of that is safety. You don’t get to endanger others out of your own cheapness.
100 years ago, there weren’t all that many luxuries either. Movies, cable, CD’s each price structured by a corporation somewhere to maximize profits.
Along with that, we have come to realize that women are human too, and Mom might not WANT to stay at home with the kids.
I am not saying that we should go back at all, but I think blaming the current world situation on TAXES of all things is a bit. . . simplistic and strikes me as post hoc reasoning.
Its more accurate to call it a millionaire estate tax because no one under this threshold pays it. Too many peole are sucked in by the Republican rhetoric that wants you to believe we will all pay estate taxes. We won’t.
How many times do you pay tax on income? An estate tax is not on income per se, it is a tax on accumulted wealth. For those who inherit stock or property etc., their basis is what it was worth at the time of death of person’s estate. The person who inherits does not pay tax on the money or property they receive even though one could consider this inherited wealth a form of income.
In the case of the Blethens, they should DOUBLE the estate tax. I worked for or with three generations of them, and if ever a family needed some chlorine in the gene pool, it’s them.
Cynical and Baynative:
Fuck you cheap bastards, and fuck you hard. We pay those taxes, too. You’re not the only ones who work, not the only ones who pay taxes, not the only ones who raise families, and not the only ones who create wealth, create jobs, and meet payrolls.
We want and expect our taxes to pay for services that the private sector cannot or will not provide. It’s the proce we pay for a civilized society.
Go live in the fucking Idaho mountains with Randy Weaver and the Unabomber if you can’t handle civilization. We want it, and we’re willing to pay for it.
And you know what else, bitches? YOU will pay for it too. Now bite me.
Baynative: turn off the Faux News, Limbaugh and Hannity. Read something other than (u)SP, newsmax, wnd and townhall.com. Maybe something fact-based and without a political axe to grind. Then maybe you might come to some well-supported conclusions of your own.
Your cut and paste “arguments” are coming off as rank ignorant.
Ivan–
Your rage is humorous.
Are you telling us YOU own your own business, pay living wages etc. ??? What kind of business do YOU own and how many living wage jobs did you create? The honest answer is NONE, isn’t it?! So knock off the WE shit in your comments asshole!
bill–
You too are probably a LEFTIST PINHEADED Guv’mint bureaucrat, aren’t you??? Be honest now. What do you do for a living? How many living wage jobs have YOU created? How much capital have YOU invested in creating jobs and wealth?? The answer is NONE, isn’t it.
Corporations pay dividends from earning AFTER taxes dimwit. Corporate dividends are AFTER-TAX distributions to shareholders that the shareholders must pay taxes on again.
Stock Prices are also impacted by corporate taxes. If there were no corporate taxes, dividends and stock prices would be higher.
Have you ever taken Economics 101 bill???? Did you sleep thru it or dodge it during your Liberal Arts education at Evergreen?
Different payees (corporate & shareholders) doesn’t mean the same dollars aren’t taxed more than once you fucking idiot.
I don’t think any of you LEFTIST PINHEADS can remotely see that what you propose empowers the government more and takes away individual incentive to build and grow a business hence jobs for others not capable. You are not capable of seeing thatyour agenda will result in SOCIALIZING more & more.
Baynative–
Thank you for the summary of NEW TAXES. Mind-boggling. Poor weak-minded bill blames this all on Technology. What a doofus! bill sounds like the Unabomber!! Technology is the problem, not the solution…is that it weak-minded bill??
@ 13
You ask a legitimate question at the end of your cut and paste job.
Wages for non-supervisory jobs haven’t budged since the early seventies. Reason – manufacturing jobs have steadily gone overseas. As a result inflation has eaten into incomes and it takes two wage-earners to support a household.
After transforming somewhat to a “service” economy, now service jobs are migrating to India and other places.
You wingers want to blame everything on taxes even after Ronnie Reagan and now George Bush cutting them. But you don’t want to hold politicians accountable for not finding viable solutions to American competitiveness in the global economy.
John–
Who signed NAFTA and GATT??
Could it have been Bill Clinton!
Ivan-
Your comments are clever and articulate but wrong on one important issue. “We want and expect our taxes to pay for services that the private sector cannot or will not provide.” Actually, there are many, many private sector businesses or contractors that would be willing and able to take over operations that are now being performed by government in an inefficient and excessively costly manner. They are not allowed to do so because the job of government is to make itself bigger and more regulatory so that it can make itself bigger and more regulatory.
My objection to the rates of taxation comes from the unbridled government waste that goes unchecked.
I can’t understand the reasoning behind taking taxes from a private estate that was created by earning its way and paying taxes through out it’s existence. I think that’s nothing more tham Socialism-lite. A government that can give you everything you want can also take everything you have. For many people in our society it has already taken their will and self determination.
Comment on 2
Your comment reminds me of what a federal judge said when he was sentencing a Republican congressman from Idaho to prison some years back. The judge said he had doubts about the defendant’s guilt because he thought the congressman was “too stupid to form a criminal intent.”
Right-wing ideologues such as Mr. Cynical are irritating to read, but I see a silver lining to their ploys. Mr. Cynical may not realize it, but just about every time he opens his mouth he gives the right a bad name with those who decide elections – the moderate middle.
* Branding everyone who disagrees with him as a “leftist pinhead” effectively insults a whole bunch of people well to the right of Goldy.
* Simplistic, white-black arguments against the inherence tax won’t play well with lots of entirely mainstream folks who see a value in moderating inherited wealth as a means of funding a reasonable safety net of social services.
* Projecting onto the left the right’s repulsive behaviors is pretty easy to see through – and it looks rather hypocritical.
So, please Mr. Cynical – don’t hold back your feelings. We really want to know what you think about every single one of Goldy’s postings. Spare us no details! Respond aggressively to all critics! You are truly doing God’s work!
Republican pontifications about the estate tax are the ultimate red herring. Estates don’t pay taxes, people do, and estate taxes are paid ONLY by the heirs of very wealthy people who themselves did nothing and contributed nothing to earn their windfalls.
But Republican antagonism to estate taxes is only part of a larger goal. What they really want is to exempt all capital and all returns on capital from taxation so that only wages will be taxed. The net effect of this, of course, will be to further concentrate wealth and to perpetuate a hereditary artistocracy. U.S. economic and tax policies are already heavily tilted in favor of the wealthy, and against the workers who actually produce the nation’s output. Since 1970, the percentage of the nation’s net assets owned by the wealthiest 2% has doubled, from 22% to 45%. This economic concentration, if it continues unchecked, could eventually destroy our democracy and lead to revolution and the violent dispossession of the rich classes as has occurred in some other societies. You can push the majority of people only so far before they overthrow a system that is stacked against them. American capitalism nearly went under in the 1930s and it could happen again.
@ 21
The point of NAFTA and GATT was not just to open up our markets but the other guy’s markets as well. The point was TRADE, more TRADE – more economic growth. If anything bad happened then there would be more worker re-training and other mitigation.
As far as I know – it worked. There was more trade as a result and the economy did boom under Clinton, did it not?
How have the budgets for free trade mitigation fared under Bush? I don’t know myself but I bet they’ve been cut.
And who would have been more likely to negotiate FAIR trade, a more even playing field, with the rest of the world? Bush or Gore?
Right now Bush is pushing CAFTA which seems on the surface to be just NAFTA extended to Central America.
Rabbitm Maybe I am missing something.
Are youclaiming the the 1930’s (The great depression?) was actually a good thing for America?
Mr. C at 8 has prescribed something that would:
1) probably raise far more taxes than the estate tax; and
2) affect middle and upper middle income families while the estate tax does not.
If property that is inherited is held at the original cost basis, instead of the value at inheritance, all the stocks and real estate inherited by people who would not otherwise be affected by the estate tax would be held at a lower price basis for capital gains purposes when the property is finally sold, leading to a tax that might not be owed otherwise. Of course, the fact that property readjusts to current value at inheritance, removing the capital gains liability that would otherwise exist, is the major flaw in the argument made by those who claim the estate tax is double taxation.
One of the reasons I get annoyed by the capitalist class complaining about taxes is because they have it so fucking good under the current system. Wage earners can’t deduct any of their expenses related to earning a living, except maybe if they have to purchase their own uniforms. A businessman can go out and buy a $500,000 powerboat and write it off by entertaining business clients (read: having a good time with his pals) on board. A gas station owner down the street from my home stores a 25-foot cabin cruiser on his business property, and you can bet he’s not paying his business any rent for the space, and that he’s not make any prorata reduction in his deductions for property taxes, land lease, etc. for the space devoted to the personal use of storing his pleasure boat. If a wage earner has to pay a storage business a monthly fee to store his boat, he can’t deduct it on his taxes. Self-employed business owners bury TONS of personal spending and luxuries in their business expense ledgers and write that stuff off on their taxes, but if a wage earner did it he would have to pay the back taxes, interest, penalties, and maybe go to jail. And what about millionaries who take up addresses in Caribbean islands to avoid U.S. taxes altogether? The Bush administration has deliberately refused to crack down on these tax cheats and freeloaders. No, I have no patience for the capitalist class’s bitching and moaning about taxes. They sound a whole lot like the richest guy in town complaining about his poverty.
Roger Rabbit–
Businessmen cannot write-off $500,000 powerboats to entertain their pals shitferbrains.
As a 30-year Guv’mint hack lawyer for DSHS, I can understand your bitterness toward those of us who made it in the real world. Putting families thru the DSHS meat-grinder and tearing them apart is not something to brag about or feel self-fulfilled about.
Your gross exaggerations about hard-working people that create jobs and wealth are yet another pathetic example of your perpetual bitterness toward those who created the tax dollars you and your government bureaucratic pals sucked off the past 3 decades and continue to suck off with your 60% of youraverage highest 2 years salary pensions. You are an ungrateful SOB. You accomplished nothing of value in your pathetic life loser!
Cynical,
Right on!
The real trick with Rabbit is, he is goinbg to retire with a benefit package that will choke a horse.
prr-
Rabbit claims he has already retired with his pension package that he complains is not enough. What a loser….that silly Wabbit!
That would explain why he is eating out of trash cans and looking for Street kids to turn tricks at a bargain rate.
Wait, isn’t that an example of trickle down economics from the reagan era?
Thanks God he has those State health benefits to cure his diseases (another perk you and I are paying for)at Virgina Mason.
Hey, on that note, you think when he was sick, he was calling the DR.’s working him, greedy capitalist, tax evading pigs?
prr–@33
HARDY-HAR-HAR -HAR!!!!! That’s a good one dude.
Can you imagine Roger Rabbit laying on the operating table with that infection spread into his gentiles screaming at those surgeons with scaples in their hands??!!! Priceless!
Rabbit probably had a little tummy-ache….however that’s nothing new for him as he is “bellyaching” all the time about “Rich People” as he slops at the trough of tax dollars that paid for his 30 useless years with DSHS and his fat pension and benefits today.
Rabbit is pathetic as Rabbit. He was pathetic as Don/Alan/DubyaSux/Priscilla/thatPrick and his other 83 identities. He is a loser BY ANY NAME!
I find it amazing that Goldy would paint Cantwell, who squandered her smoke-and-mirrors dot-com wealth by greedily hanging on to close to worthless stock to the bitter end… as some kind of heroine because now that she has lost most of her wealth, she wants Estate Taxes.
Cantwell is the ultimate hippy-crite. Get elected based on using your own wealth to get elected claiming you will be beholding to no one….then lose her smoke-and-mirrors wealth, campaign like a rabbit in heat, take money from all types of special interests…………then, last-but-not-least….campaign to get re-elected by promising poor people you will take more more from dead rich people. How original!
Comment on 1
Nobody has to pay “double tax” on dividends, Mr. Cynical. There is no corporate tax on partnerships. All you have to do to avoid the dividend tax is organize the business enterprise as a partnership. Of course, if you do, the partners are liable for the firm’s debts, torts, and other liabilities.
The so-called “double tax” is misnamed because in reality no one is taxed twice. The corporation pays tax once on its profits, and the shareholders pay tax once on their dividend income. This is no different from you paying tax once on your personal income, then when you spend that income on goods or services, the person who receives income from your spending is taxed once on their income.
The “double tax” argument makes the invalid assumption that the corporation and its shareholders are one and the same. That is untrue. In the eyes of the law, a corporation is a separate “person.” That is the reason why shareholders are not held responsible for the corporation’s debts, torts, liabilities, or criminal acts. You can’t have it both ways. If payments by a corporation to its shareholders are not to be taxed as a transfer of money from one person to another, then the shareholders must assume the corporation’s identity for other purposes as well. Corporate income taxes are the price that shareholders pay for their legal immunity from the corporation’s actions.
If either the corporate income tax or the tax on dividends and capital gains were eliminated, we would be creating a class of taxpayers who receive special, privileged treatment — i.e., they pay no tax on income. This is unfair to other taxpayers. If you do it for one, you must do it for all — if shareholders are not taxed, then wage earners shouldn’t be taxed either.
Of course, that’s impractical, because then no one would pay taxes and government would have to pay its expenses by either perpetual borrowing or simply printing money. That’s a recipe for hyperinflation, a worthless currency, and an imploding economy. Somebody has to pay taxes. In an ideal system, the tax burden is distributed fairly and equitably. In our system, that’s an unattained ideal, by why make the situation even worse than it already is by creating a class of privileged characters who are exempt from taxes when everyone else has to pay?
Why would anyone want to spend so much money to buy themselves a seat in the Senate and waste away their days listening to Kennedy and Byrd babble on about anything and nothing?
Senator Cantwell is a great senator.
My gripe is w/ the means of taxation. Shouldn’t we just go to a flat tax, have some progressivity in a $35K shield, and be happy?
Be a lot better than that list Baynative had to mention and a lot MORE better than the death tax, which is onerous.
Cynical @ 34,
I thought Donnageddon, was another one of those Don/Alan/DubyaSux/Priscilla/thatPrick and his other 83 identities, Aliases?
Am I wrong?
PRR, who cares?
Cynical @34,
Infected “gentiles”…? Isn’t that what’s ailing the right-wing of the Republican party?
Comment on 39
Yes, you’re wrong.
Baynative @ 37,
Maybe we should get Cantwell to do a ride along with Teddy Kenneddy?
BTW, Are you aware that there is a triathlon type race on Marthas Vineyard called the “if Teddy Kenneddy can do it, so can I” Race?
It’s about a 3k race, mixed walk/job with a quick swim across the chappy ferry route into Edgardtown? (you have to stop at points and chug a beer)
The winner is awarded another case of beer.
This is one of the heaviest attended events on Marthas Vineyard for Locals.
As another FYI, I waitied tables on Marthas Vineyard in College, as of the last time I was on the Island, Teddy was was still banned from ever enetering any of the bars/restaurants.
Rabbit @ 42,
Sorry for confusing you with Donnageddon
Reply to 33
I have NO state health benefits. My wife and I purchase health insurance from her former employer under COBRA, and we pay close to $700 for it out of pocket, from after-tax income. Not that it’s any of your business, but since retiring I haven’t received one penny of state pension money (at this point I am only getting back my own contributions that were withheld from my paychecks) and I haven’t been covered for one minute under a state health plan. The state, by the way, does not subsidize its retiree health benefits; the retirees pay the full cost of their coverage, with no contribution from legislative appropriations or taxpayers. That coverage is very expensive; for a couple, medical/dental/vision is about $800 a month and the dental only covers $1500 a year.
44
Seems to me you should be apologizing to Donnageddon for confusing her/him with me … :D
prriss @ 44 you have confused me with a lot of people that I am not. But that is your state of mind. Perpetualy confused.
Goldy@41–
Damn….leave to Mr. Wordsmith to catch me!
Roger Rabbit@45–
Cry me a river numbnutz!!
I’m shocked you have a wife….
Oh, she’s the kind of wife you blow up at night and cuddle with. Then deflated after you’ve abused her??!
@ 22
Actually, there are many, many private sector businesses or contractors that would be willing and able to take over operations that are now being performed by government in an inefficient and excessively costly manner.
Cite some examples, please.
They are not allowed to do so because the job of government is to make itself bigger and more regulatory so that it can make itself bigger and more regulatory.
Which explains airline, communications and trucking deregulation. I don’t doubt the tendency of any beaureaucracy to do that, either government or corporate. That’s why it’s necessary for citizens and shareholders to keep engaged to check that.
My objection to the rates of taxation comes from the unbridled government waste that goes unchecked.
Then you should have had a problem with the cold war and the drug war which squandered billions. A drop in the price of oil did more to put the USSR under than all the shiny new military hardware ever did.
Christine Gregoire is instituting GMAP and Zero-based budgeting – techniques that Giuliani used to control spending in NYC. Next time she’s in a public forum ask her how she’s doing with that – hold her accountable.
I can’t understand the reasoning behind taking taxes from a private estate that was created by earning its way and paying taxes through out it’s existence.
The reasoning is that when you tax something you get less of that thing and that thing is concentrated wealth and aristrocracies which are a threat to both democracy and the health of an economy.
The people who pay estate taxes are the heirs of the wealthiest people in this country. We’re talking the estates of multi-multi millionaires and billionaires. What did those heirs do to earn that kind of money and the power and privilege that kind of money can buy?
Take a Microsoft millionaire. Did they work hard? Sure but their wealth mostly came from being in the right place at the right time and being born to parents who put them through mostly elite schools.
Like Bill Gates Senior says it’s just a matter of fairness.
I think that’s nothing more tham Socialism-lite.
I look at it as fairness and evening out the playing field. So does Warren Buffet and Bill Gates Senior.
A government that can give you everything you want can also take everything you have.
Perhaps but our government is not anywhere close to that nor should it be.
For many people in our society it has already taken their will and self determination.
There’s more millionaires now than at any point in our history. How do you explain that?
Nice strawman arguement there cynical. As normal totally irelevant to the discussion at hand.
No, I did not say that technology is the problem I said that is what has changed. Once you get highways etc, taxes have to be there, and blaming current ills of society on taxes is, as I said simplistic.
No, corporate taxes have nothing to do with shareholder taxes. The shareholders are not responsible for bankrupsy of the corporation and because they enjoy that priveledge must pay taxes on dividends.
Further, as I said, taxes on capitol gains are NOT taxes on dividends or on corporate earnings. You may be right a company may be healthier if they did not pay taxes, but you know what, my bankbook would also be healthier if I didnt pay taxes. Thats a big so what, it is not a double tax.
I am curious, are you like a stay at home retard or are you intentionally just saying stupid stuff to rile folks up. I really cant tell. If you are serious, you are one of the most short sighted selfish idiots I have ever met.
bill–
None of the above–
“retard” is not the most politically correct term to use on this Blog…what with all the LEFTIST PINHEADS and such.
Income that is taxed to the corporation and then to shareholders upon distribution certainly is “double-taxed”. Twice=double
You fail to acknowledge that corporations provide living wage jobs and pay taxes so you can have your guv’mint job. Investment capital is necessary for a vibrant economy. Why do you think we have record home-ownership today? Isn’t that a good thing bill? Do you think the guv’mint should be responsible to meet all our basic needs?? Or should they only be there for public safety, defense and reasonable infrastructure??? Where do you draw the line?
Baynative made a great list of taxes and fees. Most have been introduced by the LEFTIST PINHEADS and are counterproductive to a vibrant economy. In fact, many have created unnecessary, unproductive red-tape and bureaucratic, unproductive jobs.
The middle-class is evaporating. It’s not only because of “Rich People”. It’s more because of unproductive government bureaucracy and too many folks looking for the “free ride”.
Income that is taxed to the corporation and then to shareholders upon distribution certainly is “double-taxed”. Twice=double
So what? The corporation pays its fair share for the courts that protect their intellectual property and the military for national security among other things the goverment provides – and the shareholder does the same with his or her income no matter where it comes from.
A government can try to provide everything for the people and almost surely fail or it can try to even the playing field for all it’s citizen and at least be partially successful.
The middle-class is evaporating because a lot of corporations chartered in the U.S. (or all chartered in tax free havens doing business in the U.S.) don’t seem to care much about anything other than enriching their top management, buying off their board and keeping their shareholders at arms length. Anything else like funding the local symphony or giving a few dollars to the United Way is just PR. And workers, well if they can move to China or India they can have a job there I guess.
I don’t necessarily blame corps for offshoring if their competition is doing it. That’s why the federal government has to negotiate fair trade agreements to slow this down or hopefully reverse it and it’s never going to happen with the Republicans – the best they can do is CAFTA.
A few years back we got hit with a ‘temporary’ measure nicknamed ‘the Gore Tax’. It was suppossed to be used to wire up schools for the internet. Since 1996 every telephone, cell phone, pager, fax machine and internet line has been paying $1.18 a month. Thats something approaching 1/2 BILLION a month. I’ll betcha those phone lines have all been pulled by now, yet the tax remains. Whaddya think the gov is doing with all that ready cash?
Comment on 49
I must be getting to Mr. Cynical … good! :D
Roger Rabbit–
Getting to me???
Yeah, right loser.
@ 54
[snark]Giving it to Halliburton[/snark]
Bill-
Cynical is one of those everything for nothing blowhards. An emerging and troublesome species. He might or might not work, but he cares nothing for the welfare of his fellow man and wants to take every service possible from whatever poor community he’s in and do nothing to support said services.
In the world of retail thatwould be like…shoplifting…and we could have the nattering nabobs of negativism well, locked up!
But alas…these everything for nothing types seem to just bully their way into blocking any solution to any of the problems we have now. Gawd forbid we try to plan and think ahead and prepare for the future. My goodness, no. No really good reason I can see beside being cheap and short sighted, except, and they don’t like this getting around…anything Boeing and Microsoft want…fuggedaboutit. They’re like the roommate in the flop apartment in college who took a crap in the plugged up toilet, left the mess, then complained about the smell. You know the type. We’ve got more of ’em here too. Real crackerjacks these guys are. Like baynative (who I wish would go back…except he probably left because BART worked).
Then we got yer nasty mostly drunk or pill popping cranks, like prr, pbj, and chuck; and christmasghost who is a prr/bj wannabe except I suspect he’s got a “nice” streak. Then the Pudster who’s a doddering ol’ dufus, and the pacman (my buddy packy) who I think is a professional troll. We get some others now and then but that’s the usual cast of characters. They sort of roll by like those ducks in the arcade game and you can like pick ’em off as they go by.
Sometimes it’s like our old Iraq strategy, you know “whack a mole” they just pop up and you whack ’em right back down. Fun, fun, fun.
Somehow this bunch of losers think they can go to a progressive blog and do…something…I don’t know what. Change our minds? Not gonna happen. Immunize the tens of one’s of civilians who “drop by” against the virulent left wing propaganda? Riiiiight. Maybe it’s that nobody at home wants to hear about all the crap these guys listen to on KVI and watc on Faux. The wife is tired of it and the kids are either gone or listening to the tenth posthumous Tupac CD. Whatever. It’s not fair to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. That’s a good slogan, but it doesn’t apply here. It’s too much fun! Have at it, Bill!
Nice rant rujax, how about explaning why so many lefties above get so worked up trying to convince the world that higher taxes are good and opposing higher taxes is the mark of an evil man? The warped world you guys are in does not exist outside of your lefty progressive elite enclaves.
As for the “expert tax analysis” by bill and John, you dick heads forgot one fact: there are a hell of a lot more small businesses owned and run by middle class people than “big rich evil corporations.” Don’t also forget that every nickel a business pays in taxes is a nickel that will not be spent on payroll.
I liked that bit about Gregoire controlling spending: were you in a cave this spring or what, John?
Comment on 50
Richard Scaife is a prime example of inherited wealth run amok. Scaife, a descendant of Thomas Mellon, a 19th century capitalist and founder of the immense Mellon fortune, is a notorious alcoholic infamous for his temper, vindictiveness, grudges, bullying behavior. His childhood was shaped by his mother’s drinking, and Scaife himself drank heavily from high school onward. Never known as a reader of books or newspapers, or for intellectual pursuits, he was expelled from Yale for breaking a classmate’s legs at a drunken party. Scaife waged a bitter divorce battle against his first wife, is estanged from his sister (who for years suspected Scaife of arranging the murder of her husband), has strained relations with his son, and no relationship at all with his daughter. He has never known a day of real work, and shuttles between his numerous gated mansions in a private DC-9. He is notoriously cheap to his employees, once famously disallowing a shirt cleaning bill submitted by an employee he sent to Vietnam. Scaife’s claim to fame is his contributions, from his personal wealth and through Scaife-Mellon family foundations, of hundreds of millions of dollars to right wing causes. Scaife received public attention in the 1990s when it was disclosed in the press that he was the principal funding source for dirty tricks and smear campaigns against President Clinton. According to people who know him, the vindictive Scaife will go to the ends of the earth and spare no expense to do dirt to people he hates — which is anybody who dares to criticize him. Scaife is a perfect example of how our country’s inadequate estate taxes failed to keep money and power from falling into the hands of a sociopath who, by reason of his money and power, has been able to exert enormous and corrosive influence on American politics and society.
roger
nice sermon, Adolph! So you don’t like Scaife, that’s no excuse for being such a pink assed redributionist!
Mr. Cynical @ 56
If I wasn’t, you wouldn’t go to so much trouble to attack me. :D
61
zip, if you want to go to Pittsburg and kiss Scaife’s ass, don’t let me stand in your way! Hell, you might even like the guy if you meet him, although it’s far more likely that he’ll charge you for the privilege of kissing his ass, then kick your ass out the door, just because he enjoys being a rich and powerful prick who can kick people around.
zip @ 59
If you had read the Gates report, which you obviously haven’t, you would know that it points out that small business pays a higher proportion of state and local taxes in Washington than other states, and one of the commission’s principal reasons for supporting a state income tax is to give tax relief to small business owners — you ignorant fuck.
Zip, you’re utterly bankrupt and I doubt you’ll ever see it but I’ll try anyway.
Gregoire decided to submit a budget for items the voters asked for. She found a way pay for it.
If you don’t like it then kick the asses of the republican leadership to reach across the ailse and work with the D’s to fix the tax system!
If you don’t like the taxes levied on small business then
ditto!
I assure you, some of us on the other side will try the same with the D’s.
zippy-don’t be mad ’cause I didn’t mention you.
You suck too.
There…feel better?
All these anti-tax lunatics posting above seem to think either (a) government can run without money, or (b) we’d be better off without government.
I say government is man’s greatest invention, and had to be invented before any other progress was possible. Without government, homo sapiens would just be another species of wild animal living off the land. Without government, there can be no social organization, no cooperative endeavor, and no property other than what a man could carry on his back and defend from being taken from him.
Cooperative endeavor is what made civilization, individual rights, private property, and prosperity possible. Government represents a pooling of efforts and resources toward common ends for the betterment of all.
My suggestion for those of you who hate government, and the taxes necessary to support government functions, is why don’t you move to a deserted island and start a society from scratch. I’d like to see you survive without creating a government and defining everything in terms of private property and private enterprise. An experiment of this nature was attempted on Pitcairn Island by the Bounty mutineers, and a few short years later only 1 of them was still alive.
Roger Rabbit–
You love guv’mint jobs obviously since you spent 30 years sloppin’ at the trough….and continue to get a few scraps of what others sweat to earn. You seem to think the State operates with mana from heaven….not the risk & sweat of hard-working, entrepreneurial people.
I don’t hate government. I just see a much more limited role with lots of accountability (like this gas tax fiasco). Our transit “experts” have repeatedly lied and misrepresented costs and scope of projects. Repeatedly. Why would the people of Washington State trust these experts??? Look at what the WSDOT did up in Pt. Angeles BLOWING $60 million on a graving yard site to build the pontoons only to find out that this was an Indian Village site….and the information that it was was available on the Internet!!! That did a lot for my confidence. And guess what assholes….$60 million lost AND NOBODY HAS BEEN FIRED!!!!!
You LEFTIST PINHEADS are afraid to hold the Democrats and Bureaucrats who have ruled this state the past 20 years accountable. You are a bunch of shallow apologists. Perhaps if you began questioning past spending and demanding accountability and consequences for complete failures, we could get somewhere. You idiots will put your heads in the sand….or whatever dark smelly place your heads dwell…and follow Democratic misleadership till DOOMSDAY!
Donnageddon @ 47,
I am still astounded you are still around.
What with all the time you’ve been spending at Operation truth, financing them and all, I did not think you had any to spare.
“Oaf” used to be a social class in England. Republican voters seem to be ahead of the curve in re-establishing it here in the good old US of A.
re 68: …a doomsday fervently wished for by Rep.dominionists and hastened by block-headed Rep. policy.
headless lucy @ 70
‘“Oaf” used to be a social class in England.’
Be careful, headless lucy. With statements like that, the Republicans will accuse you of “class warfare.” And, then the Neocons (who don’t seem to know the definition of war) will have a knee-jerk reaction and arrest you for being a “class warfare” terrorist.
John 65 and Roger/Don 64
Don’t throw the Gates report around any more, please? (I did read it). Gates Sr made his living sucking the tit of government, his law firm had a vested interest in more and more government. The report is underpinned with the assumption that government needs all the revenue it can get.
John you never backed up your contention that Gregoire is controlling spending. The last budget proves you WRONG bucko. Then again your kool aid drinker attitude shows through in your statement that “their wealth mostly came from being in the right place at the right time and being born to parents who put them through mostly elite schools.” You envious schmuck. Why don’t you stay home and kick your dog you loser. Your attitude typifies the “progressives”.
The “right wing ranting” you hear on taxation issues is from those of us who work for everything we have and do not want losers like you to say we do not “deserve” to keep it or pass it along to our kids. If you got out inot the real world for once in your life maybe you would understand.
@ 73
You pay taxes because “it’s the right thing to do”?!? Watch out pal the wingers on this comment board will eat you alive. Anything above a penny is too much for them.
I personally think the richest man in this country shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his yearly income in taxes local, state and federal combined. Some days I think that is an extreme position to take – it’s too low. If a guy makes a million in a year and taxes take half is anyone going to want to throw him a bake sale?
Zip I can see your face turning red through your comment. Calm. Calm…
You work hard for your money? Sure you do.
Bill Gates works hard for his money? Sure he does.
Now how much are you going to leave your kids and how much is Gates going to leave his kids?
Are your kids any better than Gates’ kids? Get freakin’ real!!!
John
Crawl out of your cave pal, ever heard of “the Gates Foundation”?
So the “richest man in this country shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his yearly income in taxes local, state and federal combined”. What the hell are you smoking John, most small business owners in this state already pay more than that!
John @ 50: “Christine Gregoire is instituting GMAP and Zero-based budgeting…”
GMAP = Fox guarding the henhouse. In at least some situations, the agencies/programs themselves are determining what performance data to measure and standards to meet. Good idea, but it needs to have INDEPENDENT oversight.
Type “zero-based budgeting” and “site:wa.gov” or “Gregoire” and you get all kinds of people — just not the Christine. Again, a great idea, but it has yet to be seen. Are you sure you’re not confusing her with Talmadge?
tnt1 @ 73
Not everyone “works hard for their wealth.” Exhibit 1: CEOs who control their companies with captive boards, pay themselves $50 million salaries regardless of company performance, and leave little or nothing in the till for their shareholders. That isn’t earning, it’s stealing, and in addition to the damage they inflict on honest investors many of them go to great lengths to avoid paying any taxes on their ill-gotten gains.
zip @ 74
The Gates Commission report stands on the strength of its objective analysis, and I will continue to cite it because it’s the best and most comprehensive recent study of Washington’s tax system.
You can shove your personal attacks on Gates Sr. up your ass, pal. Gates Sr. wasn’t the whole commission — it included highly respected and competent people from academia, government, and business — any one of whose experience and knowledge of the issue is 100 times yours.
Zip, you’re nothing but a typical fucking low-life Republican who uses personal attacks to try to discredit anyone who says anything you don’t want to hear. Fuck you and all your kind, you’re not constructive, and people like you are fucking up our once great country. Go live on a desert island with the rest of the apes if you hate government and don’t want to pay any taxes. That’s a good place for anti-social creeps like you.
By the way, zip, I feel pretty sure you don’t work nearly as hard for your money as the folks holding down 2 or 3 jobs just to get by. They work more hours, doing harder work, and probably for much less reward than you take for granted or think you’re entitled to. All this blather by right wingers about how hard they work is bullshit. Most of you guys don’t work any harder than the rest of us. Face it, the distribution of rewards in our society isn’t based on what’s fair or how hard people work, it’s based on how well positioned one is to take advantage of a system that rewards entrenched interests and exploits the labor of others.
Roger Rabbit–
So when were you declared legally insane???
You were a low-life DSHS attorney tearing apart families in the name of Big Sister, drawing a big salary FOR 30 YEARS, accomplishing nothing by your own admission and you continue to draw 60% of your salary for the rest of your life. And you now try to wave the banner of the “working man”??
You are nuts!
Roger Rabbit-
CEO’s make headlines while small business owners seldom do, yet they are the backbone of our local economies. While a small business offers some degree of independence it also becomes a controlling factor in one’s life. Those of us who follow an entreprenuerial dream don’t get to put it down at 5:00PM or leave it until Monday.- but that’s our choice.
What is not our choice is the 30% (or more) of our time and productive effort that goes to servicing governmental mandates. Most of which are non-productive except for the purpose of creating more government and demanding more taxes to continue doing so.
@ 79,80
Well articulated as always Roger. I’ve had it with Mr. Zip. He can take his rage to the same black hole the election contest went. I’m not responding to it again.
@ 82
If by mandates you mean taxes then get behind a bi-partisan overhaul of this state’s tax system. There might be a tax break in it for you. For everything else please provide examples. Sounds like you’re jumping to conclusions.
Bill@10:
Taxes are paid when money changes hands.
Well, there apparently was an exception to this rule:
Federal jury convicts E. St. Louis Democrats
By Michael Shaw, Doug Moore and Paul Hampel
“Five East St. Louisans were found guilty on all counts they faced in federal court Wednesday for participating in a vote-buying scheme to get Democrats elected during the Nov. 2 election.”
Question: Did they have to pay a tax when the money changed hands?
Roger and John
John, if you think my comments contain rage you have not been paying attention to the lefty rage coming from “your ilk” on HA.
According to John, “their wealth mostly came from being in the right place at the right time and being born to parents who put them through mostly elite schools.”
Enlighten me more, please, schmucks. Go ahead and try to defend that asinine statement if you can. Or its relevance to discussing taxes that apply to us all, not just the trust funders you seem to be so envious of.
Here is the link to the story of “money changing hands” (Democratvot buying)
http://www.stltoday.com/stltod.....22fraud%22
Roger
Thanks for enlightening us to your inner angst: “the distribution of rewards in our society isn’t based on what’s fair or how hard people work, it’s based on how well positioned one is to take advantage of a system that rewards entrenched interests and exploits the labor of others.”
Sounds like you’ve got a bad case of the Mondays. You cite examples of overpaid CEO’s and John whines about trust funders to justify a broad brush over-taxing that catches a lot of people who do work hard.
It’s hard for people who haven’t been in, or developed a business to envision how wealth is createdor managed.
Baynative–
I’m afraid it’s more than hard for those who have fed at the guv’mint trough most of their lives to understand how wealth is created….it’s hopeless & impossible.
These LEFTIST PINHEADS believe the guv’mint creates wealth….thus ought to be able to “re-distribute” it when some have more than others. Social engineering. Hell, let’s all sit on our asses and wait to get our chance at the trough!
Roger Rabbit;;SLOP SLOP SLOP SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY!
And then bitch and complain about the people that risk capital and work hard to create those tax dollars you sucked on for 30 years and continue to suck on with your guv’mint pension.
SUUUUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
@ 85
Oh my G*d! The “rage” as you call it is at the name-calling buffoons (you’re one of them but by far not the worst) who come here to test the second-hand knowledge they’ve gleaned from (u)SP, KVI, Faux News, etc. The kind of knowledge like voter-crediting being the accuracy marker of an election and a gamed “proportional reduction” being the “fairest” way to apportion illegal votes.
My remark was connected with the discussion here about the estate tax. A time honored tactic of the right is to isolate a sentence and name-call it. Thanks for projecting your own “schmuckness”.
I suppose in your book Gates should be able to leave his three kids 40 billion dollars. I mean they’re just kids, right? They need every penny of that money to ride out the vagaries of life! And just because they’re lucky enough to be Gates’ kids it somehow means they’re “entitled” to that vast fortune that you and I and everyone else made possible for them. Oh but a tax on that is “distributionist” – it so offends your ideology!
As far as I know the Gates family and Warren Buffet have no problem with the Estate Tax. They agree with its intent. Even after their estate tax is paid, their kids will be taken care of. The estate tax will probably never apply to you or me or even to a lot of Microsoft millionaires! And should it? No of course not. But I’m damn glad it will apply or should apply to the Gallo family, the Mars Family, Koch, Mellon-Scaife, Hunt and all the other bunch of greedy “schmucks” who want nothing less than to perpetuate their proud tradition of buying off politicians to advance their interests.
I have a lot of problems with the spending priorities of the government but even some egregious pork-barrel spending have thrown off things that have benefited everyone and not just the billionaires – like medical advances, the microchip and the internet that we’re sending messages on. Bill Gates Sr. said as much during his testimony before Congress. It’s all our collective faults that the government’s spending priorities are as screwed up as they are.
But I have the most problems with rich assholes who think they’re so above the fray that have no obligation whatsoever to the country and society that made it all possible for them. No obligation to the soldiers who die in wars for them. None for medical R&D that saves their asses on the operating table. And on and on.
Go ahead and be their sycophantic apologist and support cutting their taxes if that floats your boat.
to justify a broad brush over-taxing that catches a lot of people who do work hard.
You’ve completely distorted my position on taxation. At this point I don’t care if you’ve misunderstood me or not.
I’m for nothing other than fair taxation.
I’m not talking to you any more.
Hey John-
“I suppose in your book Gates should be able to leave his three kids 40 billion dollars. I mean they’re just kids, right? They need every penny of that money to ride out the vagaries of life! And just because they’re lucky enough to be Gates’ kids it somehow means they’re “entitled” to that vast fortune that you and I and everyone else made possible for them.”
I’ll bet you have no problem with John Kerry latching onto the fortune created by John Heinz and choosing NOT to pay his taxes at the optional adjusted high contribution rate offered in Massachusetts to the rich who suffer from class guilt. His do nothing daughters are enjoying cruising France on that little nest egg rather than earning a living.
@ 92
I have a problem with anyone who refuses to pay their fair share.
I also have a problem with unthinking people who’d rather break the system even more for their selfish benefit rather do something to fix it to benefit everyone.
I have a problem with anyone who refuses to pay their fair share.
I also have a problem with unthinking people who’d rather break the system even more for their selfish benefit rather do something to fix it to benefit everyone.
I have a problem with people that refuse to acknowledge the leaks in the system and try to ‘fix’ it by flooding more money down the rat hole. I also have a problem with bureaucrats that shift monies from their critical infrastructure projects to pay for their pet projects and then turn around and claim a crisis in finding the critical infrastructure projects.
Finally, I have a problem with people too dumb to realize that the above is going on.
@ 94
As usual with your crowd you provide no examples.
If you do put them up on a website and start a campaign. Do something about it otherwise you’re just advancing your narrow ideological agenda.
John –
I suppose in your book Gates should be able to leave his three kids 40 billion dollars. I mean they’re just kids, right? They need every penny of that money to ride out the vagaries of life! And just because they’re lucky enough to be Gates’ kids it somehow means they’re “entitled” to that vast fortune that you and I and everyone else made possible for them.
That YOU made possible for him???? WTF. Bill gates made software. You wanted that software and so you paid for it. You never gave a charitable contribution and the money was not stolen from you. Gates made a product which you bought by YOUR OWN CHOICE. You could very well have chosen not to buy it. No one put a gun to your head.
The fact is that you are just envious of Gates because he made it and you did not and you wish to punish him for it. You should focus your class warfare outrage instead on the freebies that Seattle Democrats are giving to Gateas and Paul Allen. They are unapologetic WHORES for Gateas and Allen. Democrat Nickels is the worst whore of all.
@95
Hre are some examples:
$300,000 for a toilet! Now I thought those military toilets were expensive, but it would take many hammers to pay for those fancy things Seattle bought. And let’s discuss the “wet” housing? Free housing for bums who promise to say intoxicated – what a break through in dealing with Alcoholism!
And then there is Paul Allen’s little Lake Union trolley and the Bill Gates fire sale land deal.
When I was a kid, if I spent my lunch money on candy, I had no excuse to cry about not being able to eat lunch.
@ 96
You don’t know anything about me. Fuck you.
The issue here is the estate tax, asshole. Gates doesn’t have a problem with it. How do you explain that? If Gates and Buffet have no problem with it why do you? Are Gates and Buffet “class warriors”?
If you get a job with one of the biotech companies that Allen is trying to draw here, are you going to have a problem with the freebies? Does any of the Boeing workers have any problems with the freebies given to Boeing?
Or do you just think that only Republicans should be able to “whore” for companies to locate somewhere?
@ 97
Ok if you’re so convinced those things are bad then propose alternatives and do something about it. Show me you care about the problems and want to solve them.
You have no credibility with me or most anyone else otherwise.
@99
Ok if you’re so convinced those things are bad then propose alternatives and do something about it. Show me you care about the problems and want to solve them.
You have no credibility with me or most anyone else otherwise.
#1) Alternative to $300,000 toilets: How about one from Home Depot? Cost about $500 for the fancy ones, pick one out here:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel8.....8;MID=9876
But what about cleaning them you ask? Well, how about hiring a few of those homeless people for those jobs?
#2) Problem: Free things to billionaires (land, trolley’s etc).
Solution: Don’t give free things to billionaires.
@98
You are the one that claimed you made him rich as justification for confiscating his wealth. Go back and read your own post.
The issue here is the estate tax, asshole. Gates doesn’t have a problem with it. How do you explain that?
Just because one guy doesn’t mind his pocket being picked doesn’t mean you should be allowed to to it to everyone. Gate has already stated he will only leave each of his children $10 million each.
Perhaps he wants to buy himself a legacy in the region, who knows. Some people also are into self mutilation, does that mean we should pass a law requiring self mutilation?
If you get a job with one of the biotech companies that Allen is trying to draw here, are you going to have a problem with the freebies? Does any of the Boeing workers have any problems with the freebies given to Boeing?
Yes I am going to have a problem with it. Government should not be picking which businesses will succeed and which will not by whom it whores itself to. It should make the playing field level for ALL businesses so that market forces determine who wins.
@ 101
You’re bloviating. 99.99% of people will never have to worry about the estate tax. Nor should they. The intent of the estate tax from my perspective is to prevent ridiculous accumulations of wealth that threaten democracy and the economy.
I don’t have much of a problem with what Gates is doing with his money. I don’t have a problem with him taking care of his kids. And I don’t have a problem with his position on the estate tax which I assume agrees with that of his Dad.
@ 101
Yeah I bought a few of his products and helped make him rich. When he’s dead and doesn’t need the money anymore I want him to return it to the society that made it all possible for him. This is a position he supports. Like Andrew Carnegie said, “a man who dies with all his money is a fool.”
@ 102
The investments in South Lake Union, electrical capacity and road improvements will benefit any business that takes root there. I don’t necessarily support them or the way they were done but I sure don’t have a problem with the intent which is to grow the economy.
@ 100
The idea of giving a homeless person a job cleaning toilets for the homeless is a admirable but who’s going to supervise him? Who’s going to inspect his work? If he doesn’t keep the toilet clean, isn’t that a health threat to the others who use the toilet?
You assume this idea wasn’t thought of or any cost/benefit analysis was done.
I’m not for giving free things to billionaires either but if I chip in for some things then he may be able to do more for the community. I wouldn’t be in favor of chipping in for stupid things like a yacht or a bentley.
John–
Gates doesn’t care about Estate Taxes because he has the absolute best lawyers and CPA’s on this planet who shelter his assets in trusts, non-profits and other entities to avoid Estate Taxes no matter what they are!
And his deal about $10 million to each of his kids….
how hard do you think that will be to change?? NOT!!!!!!!!
Part of the problem here John is on the surface, Estate Taxes are appealing…especially to those with little or no Estate….right? However, the tax laws and legal loopholes are so plentiful, the only people who are going to get hammered are those with dumb lawyers and CPA’s. Comprende?
@ 96
That YOU made possible for him???? WTF. Bill gates made software. You wanted that software and so you paid for it. You never gave a charitable contribution and the money was not stolen from you. Gates made a product which you bought by YOUR OWN CHOICE. You could very well have chosen not to buy it. No one put a gun to your head.
This is an important point to address. What about the soldiers who risk their lives abroad? Does Bill Gates owe anything to them? For VA hospital care? What about the government scientists working on run-of-the-mill salaries who made breakthroughs in physics, biology and medicine? Does Gates owe anything to them? DARPA made possible the internet. Should Gates chip in to support DARPA though taxes so that his company and others might benefit even more from their research grants?
Bill Gates didn’t become rich just because people bought his products. He owes a lot to all Americans going back to before the birth of the Republic. It’s only right that he and others like him give back and not doing anything to prevent others from getting the same kind of breaks he did. Which is what an aristocracy would do.
@ 106
Then I guess we should feel sorry for the poor little rich folks who are too dumb to hire the wrong CPA’s and Lawyers – and repeal the
Estatedeath tax.Sorry I don’t buy it.
John @ 107: “What about the soldiers who risk their lives abroad? Does Bill Gates owe anything to them? What about [etc., etc.]?”
He AND Microsoft already DID pay their share for those things with corporate and personal income taxes — and at rates far beyond anything you pay. By your logic, ALL people should be charged the Death Tax because they owe it to their country. And perhaps the income tax should be flattened,to, so that everybody pays their fair share.
By your logic, ALL people should be charged the Death Tax because they owe it to their country.
Nope, not all. Only those whose wealth and the power it would command would threaten our democracy and economy. That’s people whose estates are in the hundreds of millions or billions category.
The
DeathEstate Tax is a check and balance on the most wealthy. The track record of concentrated wealth and power is not good. That’s why the trusts were busted at the beginning of the last century.And perhaps the income tax should be flattened,to, so that everybody pays their fair share.
Maybe but I doubt it. Every flat tax proposal I’ve seen doesn’t raise enough money to be revenue neutral so they amount to another tax cut for the wealthy.
so they amount to another tax cut for the wealthy.
I almost forgot and a big increase for many of the not so wealthy!
Now you may argue we should cut spending. I agree. We should be countering the threat of terrorism in a much smarter manner than than spending hundreds of billions of dollars invading countries that pose no threat to us.
We should also find solutions to the threat to the global economy by oil shortages by funding research into renewable replacements.
John @ 111
How about cutting MILLIONS of dollars of spending on art for sewage treatment plants?
You could probably fix a pothole or two with that money.
You Washingtonians have it easy. We have Boxer and Feinstein here. One was the mayor of SF and the other was Marin County Board of Supervisors. For those who don’t know Marin is just north of SF, west of Sonoma Cty.
Rujax206: Now I am your buddy? Wow, I gots two lefties who likes me. I am not a paid troll. Are you paid for your non-sensical commentary? If so you should be super rich!!!
Now I am a duck in an arcade game. You talk so nice to me. Not hardly. In a battle of witz, speak of the devil where is my unkl witz? But I digress. I don’t plan to lose to you in a battle of wits.
Headless loocy out of her cage. Headless answer my school question and I’ll talk about Headstart. What is your problem? Just tell us your educational background and I’ll answer your questions.
@ 112
I doubt it’s MILLIONS (you typically provide no backup for your assertion) but even if it were that, that’s a drop in the bucket compared to the out and out clusterf*ck in Iraq.
We have Boxer and Feinstein here. One was the mayor of SF and the other was Marin County Board of Supervisors
Comment by PacMan – The Best Game Ever— 7/11/05
Pac– Boxer and Feinstien are bad, no doubt about it.. but they are intellectual heavyweights compared to Murray. I can’t believe that broad ever got elected to school board let alone a US Senator.