King County just posted their (first) recount results: Gregoire picked up 593, Rossi picked up 348, for a net Gregoire gain of 245 votes.
Surprisingly, Ruth Bennett picked up 1,317,792 votes to become the nation’s first Libertarian governor!
(Just kidding.)
Actually, this leaves Rossi with a lead of 42 votes out 2.8 million cast.
Now really… convince me why the Democrats shouldn’t pay for a hand recount?
Because conceding right now would make Christine Gregoire insanely popular.
That’s all I can come up with.
The reason that the democrats shouldnt have a hand recount is simply because of the possible graft that people bring into this thing. A person has prejudices, unlike a machine. We dont need people determining the “intent” of the voters.
Yeah… with Republicans.
On Sound Politics, Timothy SCORED- and I quote- “Proving, once again, that 42 really is the answer to the life, the universe, and everything.” May Kitsap County not upset the order of the universe…
And on that note- finis, enuf, time to drink and smoke…
Because it’s not two out of three and we don’t have time for three out of five.
Make that “it’s NOW two out of three”
Goldy– you don’t think that Independents and lots of less-activisty Dems would just like this thing to be over, too? Everyone would love her.
As democrats we need to stop acting like domestic violence victims (where the Republicans are the abusers). Why do we think that giving in to their demands will win us any votes? It won’t. Our role is not to give them anything they want, it’s to stick to our convictions and get our people elected. They’re doing the same.
Conceding would win the Democrats no more votes next time around, so they might as well pay for the hand-recount (esp. in King County, as is their right). There’s nothing to lose (besides Republicans who already won’t vote for any Democrats) and a lot to gain.
Were the situation reversed, there’s no way Republicans would concede. They’d also simultaneously gripe about how all the “liberal king county election workers” were doing something shifty that caused their candidate to lose.
There’s currently a house (?) race in Texas with a similar margin and the Republican candidate there is pushing for a recount or possibly a new/special election!
Jcricket is completely correct. Time for our next recount – a hand recount. If the margin had been this close to begin with, we would have already had a hand recount. Gregoire continues to pick up votes – hopefully this trend will continue.
Goldy – it is a practical matter in a difficult hands on, winner take all, a real political fight.
R public relations hooey will not be a factor…..so strange to hear rabid Dino fans now instructing Gregoire and the Dems on their need to eat humble pie and run into hiding.
Dems will caucus in the time honored traditions of our party, gain consensus, and decide OUR strategy.
Number crunchers of good repute, experts in such situation will prevail. Counties in flux or even precincts in flux might have 42 more votes. Statistics….I think they will do a partial recount – but it really is just a day or two premature to know.—not political, statistical.
Thanks for the GREAT site – has been fun. On my way to mother’s for turkey. No computer there- good break. Best to all for these family Holidays. Rudolph, sans nez rouge.
Okay- the system. Forty-two votes is not a big margin- duh!
Reed doesn’t certify until (reportedly) next Tuesday.
Everyone has until the following Friday to request a recount.
Gregoire should carefully consider if she can find a set of precincts that will return a forty-three vote net gain. I honestly wonder where she would find them, after the counting of every vote in King.
Rossi doesn’t have to do anything- Gregoire cannot win on a partial recount. If a partial recount overturns the result, that triggers a complete statewide recount. That would then be final…
Barring the lawyers. Again, Henry VI Part Two, Act Four, Scene 2…
Here’s a link describing defeated Republican candidates in Texas requesting recounts or special elections.
http://www.dailykos.com/commen.....3/97/50#50
Here’s a link to information about three (count-em) defeated Republicans asking for recounts or for special elections down in Texas.
http://www.dailykos.com/commen.....3/97/50#50
I believe that 42 votes out of almost 3 million seems to be with in the margin of human error. Very time we would count, we would get a different answer. That is the basic problem that resulted from the 2000 election and this one, what do you do if it is this close. This election is not tied, Rossi has won the first count and has one the recount with no votes held up by any lawsuits.
No one should have to convince you why not to pay for a recount. 2 counts should be convincing enough. But no, “keep counting until your ahead” is the dem philosophy. How about you convince ME how a third count would be final when the first 2 weren’t? Then a 4th, a 5th, etc. That’s why, Goldy.
Why shouldn’t the Dems drag us through a third vote count? Because Rossi won the first two. It’s hard to make the case that a third count would be any more accurate than the first two and not introduce yet another source of error.
It’s a matter of political perceptions as much as anything else. Refusing to concede after losing two vote counts will only make her look like a sore loser that only wants to waste everybody’s time and keep counting until she wins. Bear in mind that while Gregoire carried Seattle by a huge margin, Rossi won the rest of the state by a 52% – 46% margin. If Gregoire thinks that refusing to concede after two counts would help her credibility in the 90% of the state that doesn’t live in Seattle, then she’s smoking crack.
Just saw both party chairs on CNN – glad Paul was able not to weep openly…seems as though the signage and chanting of “Count Every Vote” should be “Count Every Vote in Predetermined Targeted Favorable Gregoire Precincts”
You just want Rossi to win, Stefan. That’s why you want Gregoire to concede. It’s honorable for Democrats to concede- not for Republicans to concede. It’s 42 votes. Too close to call. Time for a hand recount. We must be absolutely sure that the winner of this election is the real winner, and every vote should count. Gregoire has nothing to lose by requesting a recount – you are completely incorrect. She has until the Friday after next to do so, and she should.
What complete and utter crap….
“Rossi won the rest of the state by a 52% – 46% margin.”
I guess that might mean something if we elected our representatives by acreage rather than the number of voters.
Jenny, “you are completely incorrect” sounds pretty strong for all the arguments pro/con. I suggest you look at your own post and make up your mind because in one sentence you want to be absolutely sure, and in the next sentence you say Gregoire has nothing to lose. So which is your goal? To be sure it’s Rossi, or to give Christine a chance to steal it? I think it’s the latter. I think YOU are completely incorrect.
Because Al Gore wants never to be forgotten and he can live again with Gregoire.
If that is the Jenny I think it is, I really wouldn’t want to take her on- she has one of the sharpest minds in the state, even if I often disagree with her politics…
Very simply, if the situation were reversed,
the R’s would have no hesitation about paying
for a hand recount. If Gregoire should wind up
winning, I would not be surprised if the R’s
file multiple lawsuits, thereby delaying the
election’s final final conclusion until well
into 2005.
Trying to be non-partisan… really, wouldn’t either side be crazy NOT to ask (pay) for a hand recount, considering a 42 vote differnce? Of course, I can understand the partisan sentiment to have the losing side give-up, but logically and statistically it doesn’t seem reasonable.
If the situation were reversed, I’d suggest that Rossi seriously consider conceding, so as to build up large amounts of political capital for a senate run in 2006. But that’s just me.
David- you are right. This close, you pick your precincts, and see if you can cover the margin. If you can, then we go, by law, to a full hand recount. It seems unlikely that there are more votes for Gregoire to find, but she HAS to assess that over the next several days. That is HER burden. Rossi doesn’t have to do anything- he doesn’t have to find precincts to counter, or any such thing. He just gets ready to participate in the partial, or full, manual recounts.
It isn’t “duelling precincts”…
quote:
“So which is your goal? To be sure it’s Rossi, or to give Christine a chance to steal it? I think it’s the latter. I think YOU are completely incorrect.”
Your comment does not make any sense…JM. Your words say it all: you believe that another recount would allow Gregoire to “steal” the election. Perhaps you think there aren’t any Republican observers watching what is going on. You also apparently don’t have faith in the elections process if you believe the election can be “stolen”. Why bother rooting for Rossi if you think his defeat is inevitable?
They’re only 42 votes apart…definitely within the margin of human error. The governor’s race is one of the most important statewide races (besides the senatorial and AG races). We need to go over the votes with a fine comb to make sure that the person who wins does indeed have a majority of the vote.
I have been reading all this for weeks. Never posted. First of all, the law, yes the law, of the State of Washington proscribes a very specific path to resolve close election. No mysteries, there in good WAC code. Not a lawyer, but a firm believer that in every situation any citizen or citizens should never be ashamed to avail themselves of the law. Rock bottom democracy in action. And the reason we don’t solve disputes with guns and tanks, despite high passions.
I am a strong democrat and will support a recount and help pay for it. The law avails us of the possibility, our choice. I agree that Sam Reed should have insisted on a hand recount in the first instance. Another recount, no big deal for me or my family. We have food and water stored for a seige or storm.
Jenny is right. Dems should not pay any heed to what the other side thinks. This is ther lawful decision and their civil right to decide their own course. There is no fraud or hubris in wanting an exact count, and from all that I hear only hand counting yeilds that goal. Bobby
I don’t think Rossi would be nearly as successful as a US senate candidate than he has been for governor, because he would actually have to answer the tough social issue questions that he has artfully dodged up to this point. Goodbye Snohomish and Pierce County votes.
Jenny, you didn’t answer my question about your inconsistencies, you just came up with another attack to change the subject, so it’s hard to respond to that.
Jenny, apparently you want to count and count and count. Here’s the problem: King County is NOT securing blank ballots and placing them next to valid ballots. Snohomish County is misplacing ballots. Moreover, the State GOP has a litany of still-unrebuted allegations. I could go on. My concern is that it’s just too easy for some hanky-panky to happen…
That said, I believe we need not add yet another means of error here. And drain Democratic party coffers so Tim Eyman can slide in initiatives in ’05 and worse!
I’m not going to cross the line into intentionally insulting and carry on, so I’ll stop here.
Also, Democrats need not heed Darth Vance. But they DO have a responsibility to the state…
I don’t live in WA but I’ve been following the count and the recount with great interest. There is no doubt, on a purely statistical basis that Gregoire should do whatever is legal and possible to have another recount. Statistically, some 29 of the counties showed error rates of 10 votes or less in this machine recount. Statistically, given how many different types of votes there are (machine, absentee, provisional, etc.) and the fact that many are handled by fallible humans, that error rate is totally illogical and may imply that those counties only did the minimal effort in the recount. Other counties had dozens or hundreds of errors uncovered, which is to be expected on a statistical basis. Another recount, by hand, shoud uncover loads of other errors and assure that the winner of this election is actually the person who indeed got the most votes. We don’t appear to have any evidence right now that this is the case, in my opinion.
Well, when you have only one county doing a partial hand-count (did Pierce also do a partial?), and the rest just running the votes through the machines again – and that results in shrinking Rossi’s initial lead from 261 to 42, of course the Dems are going to go for a wider hand recount! Duh! I just wish our Secretary of State, Sam Reed, had had the balls to buck his Republican party bosses and ordered a full hand recount last week! The original margin was certainly close enough for him to legally justify it! And, of course, doing a hand recount will give a more accurate count. Anyone who says otherwise is either assuming system-wide dishonesty, or has never seen one done. The scrutiny is intense!
I am not a Gregoire supporter. I think the chances are we will just get another 4 years of Lockian poor leadership and inactivity. I thought she ran a lousy campaign. At the same time, I think the “moderate” face Rossi wore during the campaign, may be nothing but a mask hiding a more reactionary agenda. Maybe if Rossi wins the Dems can sweep out that old machine crowd and give us real candidates with vision, communication skills and leadership. Personally, I would love to see our Congressman, Rick Larsen go for it!
Sorry- Sam Reed had NO legal authority for a hand count. And many counties were “enhancing” ballots.
There was a strange (unbelievable?) lack of error in some of those counties – especially Yakima which reported a change of 0 votes. Now, I’m not implying that the people running the elections over there aren’t great at what they do, but let’s get real.
Being a CPA and having an incredible love for statistics, numbers & the law….I know exactly what I would do if I were Gregoire. And that is….I ain’t telling!!!!!! Rudy…for once I somehat agree with you. If the situation were reversed, the R’s would do something short of concede. That ain’t going to happen no matter how much crowing Chris Vance does. There is a time for silence and a time to speak. NOW IS THE TIME FOR ALL GOOD REPUBLICANS AND DINOCRATS TO ZIP IT!!! SILENCE…WHILE THE LOSERS FROTH AND LICK THOSE WOUNDS. THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS GIVE THESE DEMS THE ANSWER!!!! REMEMBER, ANY PARTY THAT IS DUMB ENOUGH TO BLOW THIS ELECTION IS DUMB ENOUGH TO MAKE THE WRONG DECISION ON WHAT TO DO NEXT!!!!
Doesn’t it seem reasonable to tie the “hand recount activation margin” to the scientific error rates of the various voting methods that are employed across the state? I mean, if the optical scanners (for example) have an error rate of 1.7 %, shouldn’t that be the magical number to flip the hand recount switch? It’s getting pretty murky (statistically) with numbers like these. It would be like trying to measure microbial diameters with one of those wooden grade-school rulers, and having confidence in the results.
Let’s get the guys who count cash in the casino in Vegas to do the recount. Those guys are accurate.
Rudy, Rudy, Rudy…why would you tell Stefan such a lie??? You are in desperate need of help. Your attempt to intentionally deceive folks on Sound Politics is exactly what the Republicans are concerned about. You just validated all the Republican suspicions!!! I feel for you!
Wow… walk away from my blog for a couple hours to bake some cookies (yes, I cook too… is there anything I can’t do?) and I miss out on a great argument.
But it’s my blog, so I get to impart my wisdom (or a close facsimile thereof.)
I think a lot of you have missed the point, talking about human error and such. It’s machine error that is at issue here. Punch card and optical scan voting systems were not implemented because they are more accurate than hand counts, but because they are faster and cheaper. These automated systems introduce an acceptable margin of error in most elections, but in the rare cases like this — 42 votes out of 2.8 million — it would be foolish to unequivocally say that the majority of voters cast their ballots for Rossi.
That is why the law allows for a hand recount. Hand counts are more accurate, because people are still smarter and more flexible than machines. This race is simply too close to trust the machines, and thus only a hand recount can tell us who won.
So please don’t confuse the technology with the process.
As to what Gregoire should do… as I’ve said before, she’d be nuts not to pay for a hand recount, if only in selected precincts. And the same would be true of Rossi if the roles were reversed.
This is not about being polite, or honorable, or chivalrous… that’s total bullshit. This is about giving the people the governor they voted for, and if anxious R’s can’t wait another month, well… fuck them.
I hope there are lawyers from both parties looking over the shoulders of every vote counter, with TV cameras recording every damn second; the last thing I would want to do is steal an election. But the second to last thing I want is to quit before we really know who won.
Let the rants continue….
“Moreover, the State GOP has a litany of still-unrebuted allegations.”
I didn’t know you were part of Chris Vance’s Statewide Action Team to Condemn Further Recounts and Spread Unanswered Allegations. My apologies.
I don’t care what the state GOP says. They’ll say anything they want to. They want Rossi to win – right now, the count favors him. Hence all the talk of having Gregoire “concede”.
As myself and others point out here on this thread, concession is the last thing Gregoire should do. She’s close. Another recount is clearly worth the expense.
As for your comments on Tim Eyman, he’s cheering for Rossi, so that means both you and Tim Eyman are cheering for Dino Rossi. Why are you scared of future Tim Eyman initiatives if you’re on Tim’s side? You seem to agree with the agenda of both Dino and Tim.
Yes, we should continue to count and count until we know who really won the majority of the vote. This isn’t some city council election that can be determined by a coin toss. This is the 2004 race for governor. It’s important and it warrants another recount.
Well, it seems clear from our conservative friends here that a recount would elect Christine (this I impart from their desperate pleas for concession.) Given that, I think the only thing that makes sense is for Rossi to concede. Surely his people will come to the same conclusion. I look forward to watching his Thanksgiving Day concession speech. Maybe during halftime….
You rat-shit Demons have lost!!! Rossi is the new Governor of WA.
Ih Ih Ihhh
There is a surprising amount of strategy to employ for the next step in the hand recount. Really, all that the D’s have to do is gain 42 votes in some statistically favorable precints…..and then the State refunds the D’s up-front money and pays the costs associated with a full statewide recount. Obviously, with a full hand recount the numbers would change substantially (in relation to 42 votes), and considering that Reed said that optical scanners (well, the people who fill them out) have a relatively high error rate, that could be good news for Gregoire.
Really, with a 42 vote difference now, I would wager that any outcome will not be relevant in terms of statistical significance (there is no way you could dissprove the null hypothesis that [#R_votes = #D_votes]). The State should have some sort of special election kick in when the totals are so close.
I would love to see Gregoire win the hand recount just to hear that obnoxious Vance character whine and squeak, and dive deeply in hypocracy.
Jenny, here goes dearest:
“I didn’t know you were part of Chris Vance’s Statewide Action Team to Condemn Further Recounts and Spread Unanswered Allegations. My apologies.”
I joined the Vance Action Team… TO ENSURE THAT BLANK BALLOTS WERE SECURED AND TO ENSURE A CLEAN ELECTION. IF YOUR… okay, deep breath. If Logan had secured those ballots, then I’d have a different view of this. He did not, so he has the appearance of being bad.
Look, I’m so passionately against Eyman that for you to blur Eyman and Rossi makes me grrrrr!
Also, I’m for a hand recount… WHEN you webcam it so WE THE PEOPLE can watch. I have no doubt in my mind that between “ballot enhancement”, partisans going around doing affidavits, and the like – Dino could have the election stolen by people who didn’t play by the rules. Rules are rules for good reasons. Let Rossi win. It won’t be the end of the world.
It’s not like Rossi & Eyman campaigned together, or as if Eyman ever endorsed Rossi.
On the other hand, it was blatantly obvious who Michael Moore was for… our guys K-E.
That said, in all due fairness, the Skagit Valley Herald has uncovered some snafus that embarass me. Google news for “Erika Kubischta” and you’ll find the article. Shame David got spammed – I’d had the hyperlink.
Josef
P.S. Alex, calling my friends “rat-shit Demons” got YOU on MY SHIT LIST. GO F— OFF. ASSHOLE.
Comment by David— 11/24/04 @ 6:42 pm
Good idea. In fact, I support it. I think Brad Owen should be Interim Gov’r and the 2 candidates should have a run-off election. Also, to save costs, have the school levy elections that day. Why not (except it won’t happen)?
I would disagree Aaron. I do not believe that a recount would elect Chris Gregoire. What I do believe is that by delaying the transition plans, we are putting the progress of our state secondary to party politics.
It is time to move on and begin the healing. That means Republicans need to stop the gloating, and Democrats need to begin drafting bills for the state legislature that can be passed by Governor Rossi.
I believe that this count was done fairly, if not partial towards Gregoire. This is only because King County does not check validity of ballots when submitted, only during the General Election. Therefore, since a partial hand recount was done in King County (Gregoire’s bastion), I don’t see what validity there would be to a hand recount. Numerous election experts (from both sides of the aisle) have already noted that a hand recount is less accurate and poses more potential for fraud. I think that’s what Republicans are worried about — not that Gregoire would win the election with a hand recount, but rather that uncertain and partial elements in the recount process would commit fraud to fulfill their ends.
Is it unreasonable for them to protest a process which sets it self up for fraud? I say no.
Golde, that’s funny about the cookies. I told a friend of mine in Wyoming I was following the Wa gov race via bloggers and she said ” Do they have jobs or is Microsoft paying them to blog all day? Do they cook?” So at least I can say “they cook”. I have wondered what you all do for jobs that you seem to be online so much….
I thought Chris ran a poor campaign. I think Rossi ran a great campaign. Problem is, he isn’t what he claims to be if you look at his actual voting record. Christine has a history to back her up -what she says she is about, she is about. I say, go for the recount as the stakes are too high. We have no idea what Rossi is really about. Plus, if you take into account Ruth’s votes, Wa state is likely much more about what Chris stands for than what Rossi appears to stand for (based on his voting record). You know any full-blooded Republican would go for a recount! You know Rossi has been counseled exactly what he was to do if he lost. Let’s not be naive.
Obviously, a run-off would never happen, but I can ponder….
I wonder what that outcome would be? I may be mistaken, but I assume the largest chunk of Ruth’s vote would go to Christine (since she was running on a fairly liberal platform). But, you would probably re-energize the rest of the electorate into some unknown conclusion.
What if Gregoire conceded and ran against Baghdad Bob when his term is up? Win-Win!
This election and recount and new recount still comes down to one thing: Christine Gregoire said tonight that “Every vote should be counted.”
Does that mean she and her team at the state Democratic Party are going to ask for EVERY vote to be counted…or every vote to be counted in precincts previously determined to be favorably targeted for her?
What’s it going to be girl? Yes…..or…..No?
Let me sleep on it?
Will you give us an answer in the mornin’?
DJ says:
“Does that mean she and her team at the state Democratic Party are going to ask for EVERY vote to be counted…or every vote to be counted in precincts previously determined to be favorably targeted for her?”
She’s going to ask for a recount in precincts that will favor her, to trigger a statewide hand recount, since state law prescribes that if a parital hand recount changes the results, then the state is to order a full manual recount. The difference is all in who has to pay for the recount.
Three possible outcomes as fars as who pays:
– If Gregoire gets enough in select precincts to tip the balance, then the state/taxpayer has to pay for it regardless of the outcome.
– If Gregoire pays for a full statewide recount and she wins, then she gets the money back.
– If Gregoire pays for a full statewide recount and she loses, then she does not get any money back.
By the way, my favorite comment of the evening, and pardon the fact that I couldn’t write the direct quote down fast enough, but Skeletor Gorton was on TV saying in effect “A third recount will not be any more accurate than the first two counts that elected Rossi…”
RIIIIIIIIGHT. The first 2 counts had a margin of difference of over 220 votes. Tell me how accurate that first count was again?
Skeletor has been irrelevent to politics since Cantwell trounced him. Same with Evans, same with Munroe, all irrelevant. It would be like getting Booth Gardner up for Gregoire… but back to my original statement, if your best case for not doing a hand recount is by touting the “accuracy” of the numbers in the first 2 counts, you should have solid numbers where more than 2400 valid votes were tabulated, most of those out of the “hand” recount counties…
Meatloaf! Meatloaf?! We are off the deep end, but I guess I am now hoping for the end of time… But I won’t do THAT!!!
Back to the Country Western theme folks—
I can see good old Chris sitting in the back of an old pick-up truck chewin’ tobacco, eatin’ beef jerky and drinkin’ warm cheap beer while listening to Blake Shelton Singin,
“SOME BEACH…SOMEWHERE” and thinking about the pathetic race she ran. She probably feels like the line in that song about goin’ to the dentist where Blake sings:
“He jammed that needle sown deep in my gums…and he started drillin’ before I was numb!!” Some beach…Somewhere
One problem with the King County conspiracy theories. It’s assumed in the Sims camp that if Rossi loses the Gov race he will run against Sims next. Given Ron’s last showing, he is vulnerable.
She should be at home anyway…barefoot and naked like a good woman….well not naked.
Dustin- Given Booth Gardner’s appearance this afternoon for Gregoire, I assume you were jesting…
Gorton may appeal more to the Republican base nowadays, but Daniel J. and Ralph have strong appeal to the broad middle of this state in any P.R. war. It is smart of Rossi to get them out front, just as it was smart to have Vander Stoep talking instead of Vance. It looks like the Republicans are putting their statesmen out front, and moving to grab the mantle of inevitability.
On that front, upon certification next Tuesday, even if a recount starts, Rossi will be “Governor-elect”, and the presumption of legitimacy is his. It will be interesting to see who is in the news in coming days.
And as a final remark- Gregoire mad a BIG mistake in personally blathering about the election problems. She didn’t stay above the fray…
So when are the Vogons due to arrive…
Question: If Gregoire/Weepy Paul don’t ask for a statewide hand recount (thus violating their battle cry of Count Every Vote, but they do select certain precincts/counties to pay for…what happens if they miscalculate, and the counties/precincts they select to pay for do not overturn the outcome of the election? Does she get another chance, and so forth, to continue asking? What if the Republicans ask for a like number of precincts/counties to be hand counted, and with their numbers keep CG’s requested precincts from overturning the election?
Without any hystrionics or name-calling, can we be enlightened on this interesting strategery?
Most excellent DJ–
Gregoire should stay silent and above the fray. She cannot help herself which is why she was a pathetic AG and will make a worse Governor of all the people. That’s Governor OF ALL THE PEOPLE!!!!
Chris should not have “left the suds in the bucket and the clothes hangin’ out on the line”!!!!
By the way DJ…there have been a lot of so-called experts analyzing what Gregoire should do next. You are the first one to nail it. Tell me, what is your background??? The other political jokers seem to not have your broad vision…the bottom-line…if she falls short with a select hand-recount IT’S OVER!!! Ultimately they would have to count ’em all anyway. You nailed it dude!!
Yep- One shot at triggering a full state recount. What is requested and paid for by either candidate or the parties, by next Friday, is ALL they can request- no second chances.
And although Rossi or the GOP could request recounts to try and offset Gregoire’s, trying to avoid triggering the full state recount (yes, they could cancel each other out), they should avoid such games.
Let the Democrats choose to count just some ballots- even though that is frugal, and a full recount (counting every ballot!) could follow, they spend two weeks looking bad for cherry-picking. And all their protests that they want to check out some “problem areas” before triggering a full statewide manual count will fall on deaf ears.
The D’s are not playing the PR game very well, at the same time that the GOP has put their A-team out front…
Oh- and I love Dean Logan working to raise doubts about a hand recount, and the Democrats attacking King County’s election process…
A hand recount would be the most inaccurate way of counting the ballots. When humans are involved you get graft, corruption and yes just plain honest mistakes.
Please cite your references. Oh… or are these just opinions misrepresented as statements of fact? Because I’ve done a little research, and it seems quite apparent that manual recounts are widely accepted as more accurate than machine counts. That’s why every state I’ve looked at (including WA) specifies manual counts for extremely close elections.
The initial vote count would not have been so close that it triggered an automatic recount if two counties in Washington state didn’t use electronic voting machines which were coded by companies who have stated publicly that it is their “obligation to deliver the electoral vote to George Bush”. Some voting machines in Ohio and Florida counted NEGATIVE numbers of votes for Kerry while others recorded votes for Kerry as votes for Bush. In Florida, there have been numerous reports of voters claiming that they voted in the national and local races for all Democrats and yet their votes counted as votes for all Republicans. In this state we used the same electronic voting machines which were coded by the same companies. Nationally, Democrats pushed for a paper trail for the electronic voting machines so that it would be possible to perform accurate recounts, but Republicans blocked the effort to put in place a paper trail because they know that there are more Americans who vote Democratic than who vote Republican and they are too immature to be able to deal with losing in a fair election. If we had not used these electronic voting machines, Gregoire would have won the final count by a large enough margin that the state Republican party would have had to request a recount, and if that had happened, Democrats would not have reacted in the immature manner in which Republicans have. As it is, Republicans have filed suit over the manner in which votes are being recounted in King county, but they have not filed suit in any of the other counties over the votes being recounted in the same exact manner as they are in King county. Partisan politics should not be involved in either the coding of the machines which count our votes or the decision of where and when to file a lawsuit to stop the legitimate, overseen counting of votes. Perhaps intelligent people would take into consideration anything Republicans have to say if they did not steal every election they have the opportunity to steal while at the same time lie about Democrats trying to steal the election.
Goldy, the requirement for hand recounts has NOTHING to do with logic, it is the mistaken belief that people have that a machine or computer cannot be trusted. Machines have no feelings one way or the other, they dont have bad days that make them prone to mistakes, they dont have benders the night before leaving them in a hangover, they didnt get into a fight with the wife before leaving for work leaving them with their minds at home, and seldom do you find a machine that is just a general fvck up and cannot do its job. Tell me again, what are the advantages of inserting the human factor in the vote tally? Asine from playing wizard and determining the “intent” of the voter?
Brent, instead of passing around a dreamy statement like this, by companies who have stated publicly that it is their “obligation to deliver the electoral vote to George Bush” give me a reference, who said this and when did they say it.
Goldy- in defense of Chuck, Dean Logan is saying the same thing…
And Brent- “In Florida, there have been numerous reports of voters claiming that they voted in the national and local races for all Democrats and yet their votes counted as votes for all Republicans.”
But not a single one of those reports has been verified, nor has a single one of those voters publicly stepped forward in any identifiable manner… It’s bullshit when Republicans put forth paranoid conspiracy theories, and its bullshit when you do so.
Reference facts, provable cases, or cut the blathering. If we want foolish comments, we can always let a party chair talk…
The quote about delivering the electoral vote to Bush is so well-known that I naturally assumed you knew what I was referencing. Google ‘”deliver the electoral” ohio’.
Jim King, what I’m saying is obvious fact to anyone who has the sense to pay attention. If you’re too lazy and/or stupid to pay attention, that’s a personal problem you need to work on. Instead of sticking to the facts, you simply start insulting people because you are too intellectually retarded to be able to debate the facts. Inform yourself by reading newspapers, truthout.org and listening to Air America Radio. If you refuse to inform yourself, at least have the decency not to make a huge deal out of how stupid and immature you are.
Jim King, the mainstream media is refusing to report on the voter fraud in Ohio and Florida, with the exception of Air America Radio, which is broadcast on Clear Channel stations. In Georgia, where they had not elected a Republican governor since the end of the Civil War, the Republican candidate for Governor won, which flew directly in the face of every poll conducted before the 2002 election. The numerous cases of blatant voter fraud committed by Republicans in 2000, 2002 and 2004 are old news to those of us who bother to inform ourselves. Stop getting your news from your TV and join the rest of us here in the real world.
Brent, stop the partisan hackery. Stop throwing out old Bush vs. Kerry lines, stop the craziness. Please just be a little more constructive than calling people intellectually retarded, stupid, immature, etc….
… Especially when you “naturally assume [he] knew what [you] were talking about.”
You make me want to watch Howard Stern and listen to Rush Limbaugh at the same time, just so there is balance in this world.
You’re right that I shouldn’t have assumed that he knew what I was talking about. Apparently there are a good number of people who post to this blog who get their news from their TV, which is a shame considering that Goldy is intelligent, articulate and informed. I’ve pointed out well-known cases which have been reported on a large scale. All you have to do is use google or lexis-nexis to read news articles. When you ignore what I say, say nothing to refute it and simply resort to personal attacks, you reveal the extremely limited capacity of your intellect. If I had mentioned the Super Bowl half-time show debacle involving Janet Jackson exposing her breast, would you have required me to post links to reports about the incident? Of course you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t because everyone already knows about it. I mentioned instances of voter fraud which have been reported by numerous sources, including Air America Radio, and most people I know are well aware of them. When you point out how you weren’t aware of these reports and then simply attack me, you sound stupid because you don’t pay attention to politics, yet you post comments in a political blog. Grow up and address the issues which I have raised or don’t bother wasting everyone’s time with your immature rantings.
Oh no—I have a sneaking suspicion that Rudy has now morphed into Brent!!!! People with Identity crises often are into conspiracy theories…sadly. Rudy/Brent…I thought you would have visited that website http://www.shantimai.com by now.
I guess some people can just toss off Florida like old news, I do not know a single person who does not think the election there was totally corrupt and rigged in 2000. Old news, new news, and Jeb Bush sent his stooge, Catherine Harris, to congress as a reward. Yes, if you had not heard that. Oh well, 4 years later.
Toss it off, just democracy at stake.
Getting back to this very different corner of the world. I don’t think it is an issue where the votes are at. Looking at the official site this morning I was struck with all the inconsistent patterns. Does not reassure me that a good job has been done when Yakima shows 0 change and other smaller counties show changes of hundred of votes. Should take both the lists, irregularities alledged by the R’s and the D’s at face value, and assume we need a better count in all counties, carefully under the watch of the two parties and the sherriffs On video, fully documented in every way. I want an accurate count with ten pairs of eyes looking at every contested ballot.
And the winner will be my governor.
Brent: I get NONE of my information from television, and Air America has the same credibility level as Fox- nada. You might have noticed, if YOU had done any research on the blogs, that I do not hold to conspiracy theories from the right OR the left- you paranoids ouyght to creep into the same closet. Again- which voters have stepped forward? None- but resort to the name-calling, because you have no valid argument or evidence. At least Rudy has entertainment value, and I’d endorse whatever he suggests that you and Kevin do in the paranoid closet…
Well said, Jim.
Apparently, Jim King, you haven’t even bothered to listen to Air America Radio. The reason I mentioned them is because they appear to be the only mainstream national news source which has not given in to the fascist media-suppressing tactics which Karl Rove and company are currently using. Perhaps your problem is that you are unable to comprehend the very basic fact that Fox News has no credibility because it calls itself “Fair and balanced news” and yet has an obvious neo-conservative agenda, whereas Air America Radio calls itself “Liberal talk radio.” Or perhaps your problem is that you are unable to tell the difference between humorous comments made entirely for entertainment value and serious comments made for news value. I was referencing reports of widespread voter fraud in the 2004 presidential election in Ohio and Florida, and Air America Radio is the only news organization which is broadcast over the corporate airwaves which has reported about these incidents of voter fraud. Every news organization has a bias. EVERY SINGLE ONE. The difference between Fox News and Air America Radio is that Fox News reports opinions as facts and its facts are inaccurate. Air America Radio, however, does an exceedingly good job of differentiating fact from opinion (unless you have no sense of humor, in which case I can see how you could think that they’re being serious when they’re quite obviously not). Just because you don’t agree with the opinions someone has drawn from facts which they have reported doesn’t mean that they have lied about the facts. For example, Lyndon LaRouche and I see eye-to-eye some of the time, but not all of the time, however I have never known him to report anything as fact which was inaccurate (no one is perfect and on the rare occasions when he has made a mistake in reporting the facts, he has corrected himself). The same holds true for Air America Radio. You may not always agree with their opinions, but they have very high standards for making sure that what they report as fact is accurate. Randi Rhodes has stated repeatedly that when a news story is brought to her attention, she refuses to report it unless it has been verified by at least three independent sources. On the other hand, Fox News regularly reports gossip as fact (for example, “I hear North Korea is hoping for a Kerry win.”) Jim King, you really should research a subject before you comment on it. Go watch “Outfoxed” and then watch Fox News and listen to Air America radio for a while before you decide to post yet another completely ignorant comment such as “I get NONE of my information from television, and Air America has the same credibility level as Fox- .” The fact that you consider Air America radio to be on par with Fox News shows that you have not bothered to listen to Air America Radio and given it a chance, or you are unable to tell the difference between humor and serious reporting.
No one outside of America tolerates the Bush administration or is willing to listen to anything they have to say. They have no credibility, as is the case with their supporters. Perhaps you are unable to realize how incredibly ridiculous it is to listen to what the neo-cons have to say because the media in this country acts as if this administration is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Do yourself and everyone else who reads this blog a favor and bother to talk to people outside this country, and even consider leaving it sometime. I’m not paranoid. I’m angry. I know it’s hard to tell emotion over the internet, but you’ve decided to speculate without verifying anything. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. It ceases to be a theory when it can be proven. If you want to know what the Bush administration is doing, all you have to do is ask anyone outside of America or read their news media and they will tell you. In fact, ask the French, who have extensively reported about the rise of fascism in America. It seems that when someone is informed and angry about the facts, you stop listening to them. Their legitimate anger sounds to you like the fake anger Bill O’Reilly espouses because you have not bothered to inform yourself on the facts and you have not bothered to listen to what they have said. Instead, you only listen to how they have said it. The entire world except a minority of the American people agree with me about the neo-cons, yet you don’t realize this. If you get NONE of your news from your TV, then where do you get it? You quite obviously aren’t getting it from any source which has both the integrity and the temerity to report on issues which are unpopular with the neo-cons. Your mind is so brainwashed with lies, as are the minds of the majority of the American people, that you are actually willing to stand by while the neo-cons are implementing ancient, fascist principles which the entire rest of the world is quite familiar with. But since Americans haven’t seen fascism take over any country with which they are familiar, they are also unfamiliar with said fascist principles. There is nothing wrong with not having noticed these things, however, when everyone else on Earth, especially the French and the Germans (who have seen first-hand fascism overtake their country and have attempted to warn Americans that the same thing is currently happening in their country), have noticed exactly what is happening in America and have extensively reported about it, and you refuse to listen, then you are both ignorant and negligent.
America is only 228 years old and began as a country which isolated itself from the rest of the world. Unfortunately, when its leaders gradually began to take over the world, its media covered up their actions and as a result America is full of ignorant, uninformed people who have no concept of life outside of America, the views of those who live outside America, and who have never been exposed to journalism which has even a shred of integrity. This is most likely why you view Air America as being on par with Fox News. If you would bother to listen to what the media has to say in Britain, India, France, or even Canada, you would have at minimum a very basic understanding of journalistic integrity, and if you had even a very basic understanding of journalistic integrity, Air America Radio would not sound to you like it is inaccurate partisan hackery.
I’m not Rudy, I’m Brent, and you’re going to have to start researching subjects before you post comments about them if you don’t want to end up sounding like a complete fool.
Brent—When you walk like a Rudy and quack like a Rudy…you be a Rudy!!!! It’s ok Rudy Brent…get it all out little man!!! That’s what my mom used to tell me when I was puking as a little kid!!!!
Mr. Cynical-dy – either address the issues which I have raised and either agree with me or attempt to refute what I have said, or stop wasting bandwidth, hard drive space and the time of the people who read this blog to discuss relevant political issues. It is clear that you have the intellectual capacity of a little kid and are only capable of personal attacks and paranoid conspiracy theories involving bloggers who lie about their identity. Either prove me wrong by posting an intelligent, informed and articulate message regarding my statements, or prove me right by posting another immature and inarticulate message.
Brent, do you get paid by Air America for plugging? Do we even get Air America in Seattle? If so, it’s obviously not too popular. Never quoted, never advertised, never talked about (first place I have seen someone talking about it in non-national news is here, on this comment string).
The only things I ever hear about via radio are on NPR, KVI, and KTTH. So clue me in, where is Air America on the dial, so I can see if it is as impartial as you claim. You say it is fact with humor (and if you can’t catch the humor, than you’re braindead; at least that’s the implication). I see humor in some of the things John Carlson says, so perhaps you’re missing that?
Air America radio recently started airing on 1090 AM within the past month or two, but the affiliate decided to pre-empt some of their programming for some local BS between 12-3PM, so if you want to listen to Air America’s actual programming live, you’ll have to stream it from their web site with Windows Media Player or the Real Player. I can’t imagine how anyone familiar with Al Franken’s sense of humor could think he’s being serious when he’s not. He was one of the original writers for Saturday Night Live, so we should all be familiar with his style of humor. I clearly pointed out that people who think they’re being serious when they’re not have no sense of humor, not that they are braindead. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Weird, driving around the lake today (Seattle to Renton back to Bellevue then back to Seattle), no 1090 AM came in. Maybe my stereo is poor (I checked it here from home as well). Or… maybe it’s gone?
I doubt it’s gone. The old KMPS web site still says “Coming soon … the official website of AM 1090 Progressive Talk Radio.” Also, it’s still listed at Air America’s site. It’s also on XM Satellite Radio and Sirius Satellite Radio, but I recommend streaming it from their web site using Windows Media Player or Real Player. It’s only AM radio quality anyway so it only takes about 1.6KB/s to stream it live.